The case for electric scooters(calcalistech.com)
calcalistech.com
The case for electric scooters
https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3737880,00.html
133 comments
> There really needs to be a 2nd grid of roads to handle scooters, bikes, and pedestrians. Bikes and scooters should be allies not competitors.
Pedestrians already have their 2nd grid of roads, it's called the sidewalk. Problem is that bikes also don't fit there, so basically they need a 3rd set of roads.
Pedestrians already have their 2nd grid of roads, it's called the sidewalk. Problem is that bikes also don't fit there, so basically they need a 3rd set of roads.
If we get rid of the cars, there's plenty of room.
I'd rather drive a car in this weather https://i.imgur.com/i5oLpec.jpg
You’ve clearly never lived anywhere that only occasionally gets snow. Driving a car in that weather is fender-bender city because most people have no clue how to drive with any kind of precipitation.
Even more reason to drive a car vs. a scooter / bike.
...and you'd rather be in a 15 mph scooter fender bender than a 15 mph car fender bender?
[deleted]
I'd rather stay home in that weather ;)
Still better on a bike :)
Jeep Wrangler?
Copenhagen has it. So do many cities in the Netherlands. It's great. There's the road for cars, a small curb, a lane for bikes, a small curb, and the sidewalk.
It's more than that. Denmark and the Netherlands have bike lanes all over the countries. Basically everywhere. It's weird when you can't find the bike lane.
But Denmark and the Netherlands are also flat like pancakes and therefore just super bike friendly from the get go. So that might be a big reason why people were in favor of making bike lanes in the first place.
That 3rd set exists and functions fine in... Waterloo/Cedar Falls, IA, of all places.
When they took down the passenger rail way back in the day, they replaced the network with hiking/biking trails.
And in the winter, you have a cross-city skiing network.
Granted, there's plenty of space around those corn fields, but something tells me that if Cedarloo can pull it off, the richer cities can, too.
When they took down the passenger rail way back in the day, they replaced the network with hiking/biking trails.
And in the winter, you have a cross-city skiing network.
Granted, there's plenty of space around those corn fields, but something tells me that if Cedarloo can pull it off, the richer cities can, too.
That 3rd set exists and functions fine in... Waterloo/Cedar Falls, IA, of all places.
Is it flat like Copenhagen?
Is it flat like Copenhagen?
It's not hilly.
In any case, the trails were laid over a former rail track, so the trails are very flat[1] - never steeper than 2% grade.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Valley_Trail
In any case, the trails were laid over a former rail track, so the trails are very flat[1] - never steeper than 2% grade.
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Valley_Trail
Electric assistance on a bike makes every city flat.
Don't forget about buses, they need their own road section too!
In London there are special lanes for buses. There are fines for using them at certain times of the day if you are in a private vehicle (there are fixed cameras, and cameras in the busses too). Cyclists are free to use them
Pics: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=london+bus+lanes&source=ln...:
Pics: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=london+bus+lanes&source=ln...:
Inner city Bus lanes should naturally double as bicycle lanes, as they are in Paris.
Have you used them? Bicycles and buses aren't a great combination. Passing and being passed is not so pleasant. I think bus/bike lanes were put together for lack of space, and not because it's a natiral or fabulous solution.
It's ok if the bus lanes are mostly travel lanes (ok, not great, there's a pretty strong speed mismatch between bus speed and casual cyclist), but it falls down when it's an area with lots of stops. It can be wall to wall busses in some places in Dublin (quays) where many bus lines meet and there are literally continuous stops for several blocks.
Won't those be empty 99% of the time? Sounds wasteful.
You may have missed the recent article that made the front page about buses. But the idea is, if you put them in dedicated center lanes, provide civilian walk paths over the street, and give them priority over other vehicle traffic, then people treat them more like subways. Several cities in Latin America do this, the one I'm familiar with and used was TransMilenio in Bogota.
Of course, at this point, you might as well use streetcars. But I think buses are still cheaper at that point.
Of course, at this point, you might as well use streetcars. But I think buses are still cheaper at that point.
I did miss the article! Do you happen to have a link? Search for "buses" finds two articles from the past month, but I don't see the reference to that idea.
EDIT: Nevermind, this is it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17034100
EDIT: Nevermind, this is it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17034100
It’s also easier to change a bus route than a streetcar route
No more wasteful than the passenger cars which clog the roads and are only 17-25% occupied.
No argument there, but "no more wasteful than [very wasteful thing]" is not great :)
I'm just wondering if a better use of the street could be achieved; that doesn't have to mean cars. What about a bus + moped lane? Electric mopeds seem like a pretty good alternative for people who need something faster than a scooter, and having ridden a bicycle in Amsterdam, where mopeds could use the bicycle lane, I can tell you they don't belong there!
I'm just wondering if a better use of the street could be achieved; that doesn't have to mean cars. What about a bus + moped lane? Electric mopeds seem like a pretty good alternative for people who need something faster than a scooter, and having ridden a bicycle in Amsterdam, where mopeds could use the bicycle lane, I can tell you they don't belong there!
Yes, Switzerland where everything is small doesn't often have space for separate bus lanes.
They use a trick: where the bus lane merges they have a traffic light. Cars have to wait for the bus -- literally -- and are only allowed to merge behind the bus. When the bus stops there are street baffles preventing the cars overtaking the bus. This way the bus has a free lane ahead. And the cars would have needed to wait in the traffic jam anyway, so why not let them wait intelligently behind buses?
They use a trick: where the bus lane merges they have a traffic light. Cars have to wait for the bus -- literally -- and are only allowed to merge behind the bus. When the bus stops there are street baffles preventing the cars overtaking the bus. This way the bus has a free lane ahead. And the cars would have needed to wait in the traffic jam anyway, so why not let them wait intelligently behind buses?
Empty 99% of the time - no, they are generally used in busy areas of larger cities where multiple bus-lines overlap (at least that goes for Copenhagen)
They can also be used by taxis and other utility vehicles (e.g. the police) like here in Germany, but yes - it's a bit wasteful. This is why they only build them where there's space.
In the Netherlands this already exists in most places: A car lane, a large, separate cycle lane and a smaller pedestrian lane
example https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pAL4yr927e4/maxresdefault.jpg
example https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pAL4yr927e4/maxresdefault.jpg
Unfortunately for e-scooters and other novel vehicles, the government agency in the Netherlands that handles vehicle certification (RDW) is notoriously bureaucratic. By default any new type of vehicle is forbidden to use on public roads until they certified it. On several occasions, e-scooter owners had their vehicle impounded and in one case even scrapped. Which is a real shame, as the infrastructure is perfect.
Whenever i come back from the Netherlands to the UK, i get slightly depressed as I cycle to work, on bumpy, dangerous pot holed roads
Cars as they are today are certainly competitors, and noxious gasses are a problem too. But imagine if we saw a shift to much more compact, low-emission vehicles. Sharing the road with a bunch of these would be much less scary than the huge single-occupant vehicles we have now: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/05/the-eli-zero-might-make...
Put on skiing gear and you can do it in winter too. Works great.
I have an electric scooter and it has significantly changed my life in London. True, it is a legal grey area in the UK and tarnished by those dangerous hoverboards of yesteryear but I find that as long as I keep to quiet roads and cycle lanes I can happily scoot past police with no problems. I've been riding mine for little under a year and clocked up 1100 miles already. Here are some points the article missed:
- They don't work so well in winter because batteries don't work well in cold weather - so less range - They don't stop as fast as bikes but you can always hop off to avoid a collision. - You can squeeze through much tighter gaps than a bike. - Thankfully I have never hit anyone but I imagine that colliding with someone would be the same as running into them. This is very different to spearing them mid torso with a bicycle. A typical electric scooter weighs a little over 10kg and, like the article says, has a low center of gravity so it will unlikely be involved in the accident at all. A person's weight is a much larger factor. - I thought it was dorky to ride one but that's not the case at all. - You are higher up than on a bike (you sit on a bike but stand on a scooter) so you are more visible to cars in my opinion. - You can transport grocery shopping with ease
- They don't work so well in winter because batteries don't work well in cold weather - so less range - They don't stop as fast as bikes but you can always hop off to avoid a collision. - You can squeeze through much tighter gaps than a bike. - Thankfully I have never hit anyone but I imagine that colliding with someone would be the same as running into them. This is very different to spearing them mid torso with a bicycle. A typical electric scooter weighs a little over 10kg and, like the article says, has a low center of gravity so it will unlikely be involved in the accident at all. A person's weight is a much larger factor. - I thought it was dorky to ride one but that's not the case at all. - You are higher up than on a bike (you sit on a bike but stand on a scooter) so you are more visible to cars in my opinion. - You can transport grocery shopping with ease
Don't the tiny wheels make this very unsteady if it was me id bite the bullet and buy a Brompton - even better if your employer is in the tax free scheame.
Also the impact on the head of falling off will be greater as you have further to fall from a standing position.
Also the impact on the head of falling off will be greater as you have further to fall from a standing position.
No, my scooter has full suspension. I can hit a one inch high obstruction without a problem. Makes a bang but I don't come off.
I have fallen off twice in wet weather. Once whilst going round a corner and another on wet autumn leaves. You instinctively stick your left or right foot out, trip, and put your hands out to break your fall. You don't go over the handle bars or anything. You land on your hips or knees then hands, in that order. The scooter slides away. So now I wear gloves because I grazed my hands the first time. You also feel like an idiot for falling off a 'toy'
I bought an after market gum wheel to replace the too-hard stock back wheel and the grip is a lot better in wet weather now.
I have fallen off twice in wet weather. Once whilst going round a corner and another on wet autumn leaves. You instinctively stick your left or right foot out, trip, and put your hands out to break your fall. You don't go over the handle bars or anything. You land on your hips or knees then hands, in that order. The scooter slides away. So now I wear gloves because I grazed my hands the first time. You also feel like an idiot for falling off a 'toy'
I bought an after market gum wheel to replace the too-hard stock back wheel and the grip is a lot better in wet weather now.
What scooter is it, if I may ask? I've never heard of full suspension on a scooter!
Two accidents in under a year! I have only had 2 accidents in my life on a bike.
I would say that you're more likely to have an accident on a scooter than a bike but it's less likely to be more serious.
Kind of like the difference between being tripped while running and someone pushing you off a bike. Your body has a better chance at protecting itself in the former case.
Kind of like the difference between being tripped while running and someone pushing you off a bike. Your body has a better chance at protecting itself in the former case.
Depends on circumstance in my case:
1 Came of descending a hill hit black ice (in traffic) - no problems
2 Tripped on paving stone in London - gave my self concussion and had to take the day off.
1 Came of descending a hill hit black ice (in traffic) - no problems
2 Tripped on paving stone in London - gave my self concussion and had to take the day off.
That’s my worry as well if the non-electric analogs are in any way comparable.
Lots of people have a knee-jerk aesthetic aversion to the self balancing seatless unicycle, but those always struck me as the most practical electric transportation device... once you get over the hurdle of learning to ride it.
Lots of people have a knee-jerk aesthetic aversion to the self balancing seatless unicycle, but those always struck me as the most practical electric transportation device... once you get over the hurdle of learning to ride it.
I really want to get one in London, but I'm concerned about the legal situation. Particularly, what would happen if you were to hit someone. Is this a concern for you? Do you feel nervous going past police? What model do you ride and how have you found the range varies over winter?
I'm considering getting an electric bike as they're clearly legal, but my preference would definitely be a scooter. So much more portable!
I'm considering getting an electric bike as they're clearly legal, but my preference would definitely be a scooter. So much more portable!
Hi, yes its a concern for me and I don't feel comfortable scooting past the police. Still, I've never been stopped. As for hitting someone, when there is a crowd of people, you can go a lot slower than a bike. It's quite easy to scoot at walking speed. Like the article said, it is super easy to hop on and hop off a scooter, unlike a bike. So, when there are pedestrians around, I just hop off and walk for a bit.
I have not had anyone step out in front of me yet. People tend to notice you because you are high up. I use back roads and cycle paths so I guess the risk is less.
The model is ETWOW Booster S2 500W. The range is supposed to be 30km (top speed 30km/h) but I I weigh 87km and my top speed is more like 25km/h unless the wind is in my favor. I get 18km in summer and 6km in winter on a charge. I thought the battery was deteriorating but now that its warming up I get my long range back.
It doesn't completely die when running low but goes into eco mode which is annoying because you might was well walk it is so slow. It also keeps disabling cruise control too. I would say that they could improve the firmware but overall the scooter is excellent.
I have not had anyone step out in front of me yet. People tend to notice you because you are high up. I use back roads and cycle paths so I guess the risk is less.
The model is ETWOW Booster S2 500W. The range is supposed to be 30km (top speed 30km/h) but I I weigh 87km and my top speed is more like 25km/h unless the wind is in my favor. I get 18km in summer and 6km in winter on a charge. I thought the battery was deteriorating but now that its warming up I get my long range back.
It doesn't completely die when running low but goes into eco mode which is annoying because you might was well walk it is so slow. It also keeps disabling cruise control too. I would say that they could improve the firmware but overall the scooter is excellent.
I have a twin model, the Stryder Zoom, and my experience is similar. I get 16 km out of a charge, which is exactly my daily commute, so I charge it at work too. On snow it was behaving quite ok, but indeed lower range.
My main worry is that it squeaks a bit, I have to find a way to lubricate the rear spring.
My main worry is that it squeaks a bit, I have to find a way to lubricate the rear spring.
Hi David, UK here. Do you mind if I ask what scooter you purchased? Also how is maintenance? Keep being a pioneer!
It's a ETWOW Booster S2. 500W. Full suspension. 30km range although Got it on Aliexpress. 10.5kg so very light for the power and range. I weigh 87kg so I need the extra power. Its rated at 30km on a charge but I get no more than 18km I would say. Depends on the wind and temperature.
I bought an after market back gum wheel because the stock wheel had no grip in wet weather / leaves. The new wheel is great and the whole thing is silent now.
Maintenance wise, I've oiled it twice in a year with bike chain oil. Just to stop the squeaks. Wipe it down with a wet cloth to clean it once a month.
I bought an after market back gum wheel because the stock wheel had no grip in wet weather / leaves. The new wheel is great and the whole thing is silent now.
Maintenance wise, I've oiled it twice in a year with bike chain oil. Just to stop the squeaks. Wipe it down with a wet cloth to clean it once a month.
Not OP, but I ride this:
https://inokimuk.com/products/mini/
Service/maintenance is done by the same guys, battery replacement like £100, new Tires are like £20-30.
Cut my commute from 50 minute walk or 30 minute tube, to a 20 minute scoot, and much more fun.
https://inokimuk.com/products/mini/
Service/maintenance is done by the same guys, battery replacement like £100, new Tires are like £20-30.
Cut my commute from 50 minute walk or 30 minute tube, to a 20 minute scoot, and much more fun.
I wonder if it's selection bias, but I feel like I'm seeing way more conversation today about electric scooters than I've ever heard about similar on-demand bike platforms that started a few years ago.
I never realised it, but the argument of bikes vs scooters (bulky, hard to transport, etc) is a real one and makes a lot of sense on why using an electric scooter (at least for shorter distances) would be more attractive than a bike.
I never realised it, but the argument of bikes vs scooters (bulky, hard to transport, etc) is a real one and makes a lot of sense on why using an electric scooter (at least for shorter distances) would be more attractive than a bike.
> I never realised it, but the argument of bikes vs scooters (bulky, hard to transport, etc) is a real one and makes a lot of sense on why using an electric scooter (at least for shorter distances) would be more attractive than a bike.
Indeed, I got myself one and that was very much the discriminant, it's not faster than a bike and has less range (top speed of ~20km/h and ~20km range), it's also somewhat uncomfortable (small solid rubber wheels) however it's much simpler to fold/unfold, less cumbersome (in terms of volume & transportability) & weight-competitive (~13kg) with folding bikes let alone electric foldings.
I can go to work with it and come back on public transport without bothering anyone, it takes a few seconds to fold it and go up/down stairs, …
Even a light ebike like the QiCYCLE (which isn't officially available where I live anyway) is much more cumbersome to carry around — especially with it in one hand and a bag in the other or the like —, heavier, and requires half a dozen movements to fold or unfold, mostly for reasons intrinsics to bikes" you need a proper crankset with enough clearance to pedal, a chain or other transmission to the wheel, a high-enough seatpost to actually pedal, wheels big enough for all that to make sense, … none of which are necessary on PMDs.
It doesn't have the "cycling" fallback if out of juice, but by and large the distances I'm using it on make that a non-issue. I feel lazy as hell riding it, but laziness is not the primary reason I got it instead of a bike/ebike (though I'll admit it was probably part of the overall).
Indeed, I got myself one and that was very much the discriminant, it's not faster than a bike and has less range (top speed of ~20km/h and ~20km range), it's also somewhat uncomfortable (small solid rubber wheels) however it's much simpler to fold/unfold, less cumbersome (in terms of volume & transportability) & weight-competitive (~13kg) with folding bikes let alone electric foldings.
I can go to work with it and come back on public transport without bothering anyone, it takes a few seconds to fold it and go up/down stairs, …
Even a light ebike like the QiCYCLE (which isn't officially available where I live anyway) is much more cumbersome to carry around — especially with it in one hand and a bag in the other or the like —, heavier, and requires half a dozen movements to fold or unfold, mostly for reasons intrinsics to bikes" you need a proper crankset with enough clearance to pedal, a chain or other transmission to the wheel, a high-enough seatpost to actually pedal, wheels big enough for all that to make sense, … none of which are necessary on PMDs.
It doesn't have the "cycling" fallback if out of juice, but by and large the distances I'm using it on make that a non-issue. I feel lazy as hell riding it, but laziness is not the primary reason I got it instead of a bike/ebike (though I'll admit it was probably part of the overall).
Regarding the laziness, i kick while scooting, making it go faster which is very dynamic and lots of fun, although it doesn't seem to impact the range.
This is why I use an electric skateboard. Once I get to my destination, I don't have lock it outside or bring it into a bike parking room. I can just bring it inside with me. It's small enough to easily stash it or put it in a grocery cart. It's not perfect but I've found it to be very convenient.
I think you're right about the scooters vs bike programs: people like that they're small. Another big thing is that they're electric; there's no work involved. You can easily just get on and go. Like the article touches on, people don't want to sweat on their way to work.
The only real barrier to widespread adoption of this kind of thing seems to be infrastructure -- American infrastructure is built for cars and/or pedestrians. A third space for small personal vehicles (bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc.) would free that up but obviously comes with a cost.
I think you're right about the scooters vs bike programs: people like that they're small. Another big thing is that they're electric; there's no work involved. You can easily just get on and go. Like the article touches on, people don't want to sweat on their way to work.
The only real barrier to widespread adoption of this kind of thing seems to be infrastructure -- American infrastructure is built for cars and/or pedestrians. A third space for small personal vehicles (bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc.) would free that up but obviously comes with a cost.
I cycle to work and drive and think electric scooters and their ilk are great - as long as they are not ridden on the pavement endangering pedestrians, and as long as they are well lit at night.
However I disagree with this part of the article:
> If you're in the business of making cars, PMDs should top your list of existential worries. ... PMDs replace cars at a fraction of the cost.
For most people (in my opinion) A PMD will supplement the car, not replace it. I cycle a lot. I don;t use my bike for moderate size shopping trips, or when I'm ferrying the kids around, or going on longer family trips.
However I disagree with this part of the article:
> If you're in the business of making cars, PMDs should top your list of existential worries. ... PMDs replace cars at a fraction of the cost.
For most people (in my opinion) A PMD will supplement the car, not replace it. I cycle a lot. I don;t use my bike for moderate size shopping trips, or when I'm ferrying the kids around, or going on longer family trips.
Replace a car...could this be any more single urban yuppie bubble? In suburban areas you use your car to bring home furniture and groceries for the month. You're not using this on any road worth a darn, it's really just last mile for very dense urban areas, and barely even replaces walking; the battery life on these kind of things will barely last 5-10 miles.
In San Francisco, my anecdotal observation was that they’re ridden on sidewalks at least as often as bike lanes or roads. That said, in my limited time there, I didn’t see anyone behaving particularly dangerously around pedestrians though I’m sure it happens.
I use my bike for all my shopping by using bags on the side of the rack and a big backpack, works quite well.
I too do small shops using panniers. Not for a family of four though.
I love the idea of eScooters but in the UK they are illegal to use on the road or pavements. Unless the law changes they won't get adopted over here.
I ride one in London (Soho) and it has never been an issue. You just get off and walk it when you are near people.
It's not an issue until it is, especially regarding insurances. I don't know about the UK but here I'd be worried about my personal liability and any potential incapacity leave/benefits.
Well yeah, if you hurt someone, you have to make it right. This has an easy fix, though: Drive safely. You can get insurance (we in Czechia colloquially call it "insurance against dumbness") if you want to, btw.
You can drive safely and still get in a traffic accident, and while you might not be at fault, you weren't supposed to be on the road on a vehicle that has the legal status of a toy, insured or not.
[Speaking about EU] You most probably won't get in any trouble in that case, a moderate fine is the most extreme case, you definitely will not be liable for anything.
I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion.
In the Netherlands, segways are treated like mopeds (and these electrical scooters are quite similar to segways). Which means that you do need moped liability insurance and you cannot use the sidewalk.
If you get involved in an accident with either a pedestrian or a bicycle, then because you are using a motorised vehicle, you are assumed to be liable for the damage even if it is not your fault.
In the Netherlands, segways are treated like mopeds (and these electrical scooters are quite similar to segways). Which means that you do need moped liability insurance and you cannot use the sidewalk.
If you get involved in an accident with either a pedestrian or a bicycle, then because you are using a motorised vehicle, you are assumed to be liable for the damage even if it is not your fault.
Only if the damage is more than what damage would happen if you were walking and also only if the damage is directly linked with your vehicle. Principle of adequacy. It hugely depends on what kind of segway it is etc.
So, a pedestrian makes an unexpected move where you have priority, the pedestrian falls and needs lengthy recovery.
Then by default you are liable for all of the pedestrian's costs, even if it was not your fault. No ifs. Just any damage that results from the accident.
Then by default you are liable for all of the pedestrian's costs, even if it was not your fault. No ifs. Just any damage that results from the accident.
Citation needed.
Yeah this is certainly a cultural thing. It hadn't even crossed my mind that I would be held accountable for injuring someone on a scooter.
From what I can see, this law hasn't been tested, but given that my scooters max speed is 11mph, I'm not worried about killing someone at the moment.
From what I can see, this law hasn't been tested, but given that my scooters max speed is 11mph, I'm not worried about killing someone at the moment.
That's why e-bikes have been getting more traction.
Unfortunate since the size of a bicycle can be a drawback.
Unfortunate since the size of a bicycle can be a drawback.
In EU countries they should be classified as light electric vehicle or something like that, along with things like skateboards, rollerblades and “hoverboards”. Hence, allowed basically wherever pedestrians are allowed, unlike the bigger and heavier mopeds and bicycles. At least this has been the case in Finland since the newest Eau directives of the sort were ratified.
Oh right, the mobile app auto-corrected EU to Eau and didn't reply to the context I clicked in. So, any iOS apps to recommend? The "Hacker News" one apparently sucks for commenting.
What is the rationale for the ban?
I don't think there is a rationale; they just haven't updated the law recently. In their defence, they do also have things like Brexit to worry about.
Apparently it is currently unclear even whether and where roller skates are legal, and it is occasionally claimed that wheeled bins are technically illegal on pavements, even though they are provided by local authorities and people are expected to put them in front of their houses on bin days.
Of course, it's unlikely you'll be stopped by the police for using an electric scooter in a considerate way. But the lack of official approval is bound to prevent widespread use.
Meanwhile, feral youths, without helmets, ride unlicensed, uninsured pit bikes across roads, pavements and other people's private land and the police have no resources to do anything about it. On the other hand, a middle-class middle-aged gentleman on a scooter would be much easier to catch, so do be a bit careful if you decide to defy the law. If you see the cops coming, run for it. They almost certainly won't shoot you.
Apparently it is currently unclear even whether and where roller skates are legal, and it is occasionally claimed that wheeled bins are technically illegal on pavements, even though they are provided by local authorities and people are expected to put them in front of their houses on bin days.
Of course, it's unlikely you'll be stopped by the police for using an electric scooter in a considerate way. But the lack of official approval is bound to prevent widespread use.
Meanwhile, feral youths, without helmets, ride unlicensed, uninsured pit bikes across roads, pavements and other people's private land and the police have no resources to do anything about it. On the other hand, a middle-class middle-aged gentleman on a scooter would be much easier to catch, so do be a bit careful if you decide to defy the law. If you see the cops coming, run for it. They almost certainly won't shoot you.
As far as I can tell, it's not so much a ban as that the current legislation just doesn't fit them. They don't fit into the existing category of "electrically assisted pedal cycle" and they don't meet the requirements of road vehicles.
Legislation needs to catch up. There is a European effort underway to create safety requirements and test methods for Personal Light Electric Vehicles that would seem like a good start [1]. Maybe we'll leave the EU just in time to not get the benefit :)
[1] https://www.din.de/en/getting-involved/standards-committees/...
Legislation needs to catch up. There is a European effort underway to create safety requirements and test methods for Personal Light Electric Vehicles that would seem like a good start [1]. Maybe we'll leave the EU just in time to not get the benefit :)
[1] https://www.din.de/en/getting-involved/standards-committees/...
None, it's not a deliberate ban, it's simply not listed as allowed because no one considered it when the law was created and no one has bothered to (or was able to) change it.
An alternative possibility is that they actually do fit an existing category (some kind of moped) but fail to meet the safety standards of that category.
I believe it's the same law [1] that also meant the Hoverboards from a few years ago were also illegal to ride on public pavements and roads[2].
[1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/12/uk-hoverboar...
[1] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/12/uk-hoverboar...
Same reason Segways were never really allowed here, AFAICT. You can ride any/all of these things on private land, just not on public highways or pavement.
Here is an article though it gives no rationale. I think ebikes are allowed on roads as they are pedal assisted. Bikes that don't require you to pedal are in a grey area. Since eScotters have no pedals they are not legal on the roads http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5271874.stm
Chances are they're simply not covered by existing rules and those rules work like a whitelist.
Basically "we don't want to be accused of not protecting people from their own stupidity"
When you talk about electric bikes and scooters the picture formed in the heads of the people who run nanny-states looks a lot like mopeds in Dehli.
When you talk about electric bikes and scooters the picture formed in the heads of the people who run nanny-states looks a lot like mopeds in Dehli.
Security, I guess.
I just returned from Singapore. The central business district is full of these scooters. As a Dutchman, personally, I don't see why people don't bike. Cardio & transport in one.
(This also why I don't understand the appeal of the Segway)
The issue is that these scooters should not be on pedestrian walkways / sidewalks (and they are in Singapore), because there is too much difference in speed.
Singapore recently came with strict rules about usage, so perhaps there is a middle ground: https://www.mobilityscooters.sg/blogs/blog/are-mobility-scoo...
I'll stick to my bicycle for now, though. In Holland, I like the trend of "Bike roads" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_boulevard) as the deeper issue, certainly in London, has nothing to do with electric scooters, but with a reduction in automobile traffic, and giving back space to bicycles (and electric scooters, why not).
The issue is that these scooters should not be on pedestrian walkways / sidewalks (and they are in Singapore), because there is too much difference in speed.
Singapore recently came with strict rules about usage, so perhaps there is a middle ground: https://www.mobilityscooters.sg/blogs/blog/are-mobility-scoo...
I'll stick to my bicycle for now, though. In Holland, I like the trend of "Bike roads" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_boulevard) as the deeper issue, certainly in London, has nothing to do with electric scooters, but with a reduction in automobile traffic, and giving back space to bicycles (and electric scooters, why not).
biking in the heat of holland is fine, unlike in places like singapore
Wanted to say this, ppl get sweaty with all the humidity and effort biking in Singapore.
Also, during my time in Singapore about 3 years ago, I found the scooters were used as the 'last mile' option by ppl using public transport, which I thought more practical than doing the same with one's bike.
Scooters were just taking off in Singapore when I left and I remember reading that the SG government were seriously considering dedicated lanes for scooters then.
Also, during my time in Singapore about 3 years ago, I found the scooters were used as the 'last mile' option by ppl using public transport, which I thought more practical than doing the same with one's bike.
Scooters were just taking off in Singapore when I left and I remember reading that the SG government were seriously considering dedicated lanes for scooters then.
> Electric scooters, or more generically Personal Mobility Devices (PMDs)
Geez, they're scooters.
Geez, they're scooters.
I'm sure PMD covers many different kind of devices (scooters + segways, for example)
Also electric unicycles:
https://www.amazon.com/Swagtron-SwagRoller-Electric-Unicycle...
And electric skateboards with hand controllers.
https://www.amazon.com/Swagtron-SwagRoller-Electric-Unicycle...
And electric skateboards with hand controllers.
Maybe I should call my toothbrush a Personal Hygiene Device.
Well, there is the "Personal Massager" precedent.
Would you call your towel a toothbrush?
I just bought one this week for my daily commute. Getting on it is a highlight of the day. It's still working on its first charge.
I rode a Bird scooter for the first time last week in SF from the Ferry Building to my office on Montgomery. Setup in the app was easy, and I got the hang of the scooter in just a couple blocks. It made me want to go buy one for myself - I think the model Bird uses costs about $500.
My biggest gripe with using the Bird scooters is that there aren't enough of them. I had to walk a couple blocks to get the one I rode, and at 5pm going back the other way there were none available near me - or the ones near me would be taken by the time I got to them. Just owning one solves that gripe, and $500 seems like a bargain when compared to the time spent walking, or the cost of parking, or the cost of taking Ubers around.
So I for one welcome the electric scooter trend.
My biggest gripe with using the Bird scooters is that there aren't enough of them. I had to walk a couple blocks to get the one I rode, and at 5pm going back the other way there were none available near me - or the ones near me would be taken by the time I got to them. Just owning one solves that gripe, and $500 seems like a bargain when compared to the time spent walking, or the cost of parking, or the cost of taking Ubers around.
So I for one welcome the electric scooter trend.
I ride an Urb-E to and from work 1.1 miles each way. It is an awesome last mile solution. It has supplanted my car, a boosted board, and a bike I used to have. Absolutely amazing vehicle. It will quicken the multi-modal nature of roads sooner than we think.
I have an Inboard (do not recommend for several reasons) and have been considering the Urb-E for a while, but also looking at the Lithim Cycle Super 73 bike. What do you like most and least about your Urb-E? I have gone to their store in Pasadena and test driven one - super fun. I’m still considering the bike for sheer practicality purposes, and also I feel like the Urb-E has a bit of this old-person walker look to it that I can’t shake off.
I've had a sport gt for a few months.
Pros: it's fairly light, easy to carry around, with a small footprint (when folded & standing) and very quick to fold, makes it convenient for multi-modal involving public transport, or to use it one way and public transports the other for some reason
Cons: on wet surface sends mud everywhere it should not — apparently they've just released fenders which I would strongly recommend if you're in a place where it ever rains; it's a bit bumpy especially on less-than-perfect surfaces (solid wheels and only steatpost suspension)
My biggest issue is more of a disappointment: I was really interested in using it for grocery shopping (either going for groceries or getting them on my way back) but:
* the cargo basket doesn't have handles (it does have handle mounts but not the handles going in there) making it a pain to carry detached from but alongside the urbe
* which is not helped by the urb-e being way less convenient to carry by the handle when the basked is affixed (as it juts out from the middle and makes for way less walking legroom)
* the basket's mount/release is absolute crap especially when loaded, the lock must be drawn back into the basket (and into the groceries usually those heavier & less flexible as it's towards the post) then lifted up and back from the bolt-holes and the support itself is annoying to remove, this makes urbe+basket way less convenient to fold/unfold/carry than the urbe alone, even more so as the support is affixed over the back handle if mounted in the back which…
* is a requirement for "shopping cart" mode on the sport, if loaded with more than a few hundred grams the "standing" urb-e is not stable when using a front-mounted basket
* the basket is very rigid, coupled with the sport gt's solid wheels groceries keep bumping and jumping around, damaging the heavier or more fragile items
* it's an open wire basket, making it very much non water resistant (though see first cons my urbe isn't great at that anyway, at least unless and until I get the new fenders)
* really inadapted to carrying french bread, there's no good way to carry a baguette or flute without it being damaged
Some sort of closable bag (canvas on or suspended under a rigid frame) would have been much better, or a bike-ish post compatible with standard panniers. That would have limited the bumping and jumping, provided some protection against elements and avoided the possibility of items jumping out the bag entirely (either due to bumps or light stuff picked by wind gusts).
I like my machine overall, but that cargo basket is just bad.
Pros: it's fairly light, easy to carry around, with a small footprint (when folded & standing) and very quick to fold, makes it convenient for multi-modal involving public transport, or to use it one way and public transports the other for some reason
Cons: on wet surface sends mud everywhere it should not — apparently they've just released fenders which I would strongly recommend if you're in a place where it ever rains; it's a bit bumpy especially on less-than-perfect surfaces (solid wheels and only steatpost suspension)
My biggest issue is more of a disappointment: I was really interested in using it for grocery shopping (either going for groceries or getting them on my way back) but:
* the cargo basket doesn't have handles (it does have handle mounts but not the handles going in there) making it a pain to carry detached from but alongside the urbe
* which is not helped by the urb-e being way less convenient to carry by the handle when the basked is affixed (as it juts out from the middle and makes for way less walking legroom)
* the basket's mount/release is absolute crap especially when loaded, the lock must be drawn back into the basket (and into the groceries usually those heavier & less flexible as it's towards the post) then lifted up and back from the bolt-holes and the support itself is annoying to remove, this makes urbe+basket way less convenient to fold/unfold/carry than the urbe alone, even more so as the support is affixed over the back handle if mounted in the back which…
* is a requirement for "shopping cart" mode on the sport, if loaded with more than a few hundred grams the "standing" urb-e is not stable when using a front-mounted basket
* the basket is very rigid, coupled with the sport gt's solid wheels groceries keep bumping and jumping around, damaging the heavier or more fragile items
* it's an open wire basket, making it very much non water resistant (though see first cons my urbe isn't great at that anyway, at least unless and until I get the new fenders)
* really inadapted to carrying french bread, there's no good way to carry a baguette or flute without it being damaged
Some sort of closable bag (canvas on or suspended under a rigid frame) would have been much better, or a bike-ish post compatible with standard panniers. That would have limited the bumping and jumping, provided some protection against elements and avoided the possibility of items jumping out the bag entirely (either due to bumps or light stuff picked by wind gusts).
I like my machine overall, but that cargo basket is just bad.
By "roads", do you mean "USian roads"? By "multi-modal nature" do you mean like they are in India, China, Singapore, Turkey, Brazil, Columbia, Kenya, Egypt, etc.?
Autonomous vehicles will vastly reduce fear for cyclists, scooter riders, and pedestrians. Scooters can benefit from this technology, too, to keep pedestrians and scooter riders safer.
Some cities are already gas scooter-mobile, like Taipei. This even though Taipei is very rainy part of the year. Every office has pegs to hang the wet ponchos of scooter riders. Electrifying scooters will markedly improve the air because gas scooters have no smog controls.
Scooters are also right-sized for electrification. Small and light enough that they get decent range at under $2000. Some much cheaper. Scooters can also cover a range of sizes and capacities.
But cars need to become safer to riders and pedestrians for widespread adoption.
Some cities are already gas scooter-mobile, like Taipei. This even though Taipei is very rainy part of the year. Every office has pegs to hang the wet ponchos of scooter riders. Electrifying scooters will markedly improve the air because gas scooters have no smog controls.
Scooters are also right-sized for electrification. Small and light enough that they get decent range at under $2000. Some much cheaper. Scooters can also cover a range of sizes and capacities.
But cars need to become safer to riders and pedestrians for widespread adoption.
I had a great time in San Diego riding these and I am thinking about grabbing the $500 electric scooter on Amazon instead of the $1200 boosted board.
Interestingly, I got kinda pulled over when I was riding one late at night in San Diego. The police officer said I needed a helmet and to get off of it. I think he may have just been having a bad afternoon because in the daytime there were hundreds of people riding around without a helmet on. I am not saying that I think it's a dumb idea to wear a helmet, I always do when biking around my city's streets. Next time I'm in San Diego I'm bringing a helmet with me, and then, I'll be unstoppable.
Interestingly, I got kinda pulled over when I was riding one late at night in San Diego. The police officer said I needed a helmet and to get off of it. I think he may have just been having a bad afternoon because in the daytime there were hundreds of people riding around without a helmet on. I am not saying that I think it's a dumb idea to wear a helmet, I always do when biking around my city's streets. Next time I'm in San Diego I'm bringing a helmet with me, and then, I'll be unstoppable.
Ahh, the electric scooter. These do look like a lot of fun, but as someone who's ridden several of the non-electric variety I'd have to say I prefer the stability of a skateboard over one of these 2 wheelers.
Why can't I buy a nice electric skateboard with a brake and a handheld controller for a price similar to what these scooters are going for? Seems like electric skateboards are more of a niche/enthusiast market, and they're being priced accordingly.
Why can't I buy a nice electric skateboard with a brake and a handheld controller for a price similar to what these scooters are going for? Seems like electric skateboards are more of a niche/enthusiast market, and they're being priced accordingly.
Everything thing old is new again. Does anyone else remember the kids show Newton's Apple? One of the segments was called Newton's Lemons featuring products that were duds. I remember seeing an electric scooter being shown in that segment, using old black and white film of the product in action.
I thought it was great at the time and still think electric scooters are a great idea.
I thought it was great at the time and still think electric scooters are a great idea.
Personally I'd prefer ebikes over electric scooters, You can easily get around on an ebike sweat free. But they seem like a great means of transport if a bike isn't practical for you.
As someone with a transportation planning background, I’m delighted for anything that isn’t a single occupant vehicle. Not that those don’t have a place, it’s just that they shouldn’t be the meat and potatoes of transportation.
Electric bikes are great. Scooters are great. Electric unicycles are great. Electric longboards are great. Traditional versions of the above are great.
Buy what works for you and see the world :-)
Electric bikes are great. Scooters are great. Electric unicycles are great. Electric longboards are great. Traditional versions of the above are great.
Buy what works for you and see the world :-)
I find it odd that an article attempting to make a case for scooters wouldn't mention safety equipment such as helmets. It does mention safety issues, but just glosses right over them.
what's a good scooter with really good suspension or fat wheels? I want to like them, just can't handle the constant shaking on uneven roads
Who uses gyrowheels / self balancing unicycles ?
I see two or three every day in NYC.
I feel like they could be great hybrid devices; bicycles and scooters, even ridden slowly, cause too much disruption on sidewalks. A gyro wheel at walking speeds ought to be just fine. (I was just trying to figure out a way to traverse five miles from a light rail stop to my sister out in the suburbs; the streets are often unsafe for cycles, basically no room for anything except for a sidewalk.)
I feel like they could be great hybrid devices; bicycles and scooters, even ridden slowly, cause too much disruption on sidewalks. A gyro wheel at walking speeds ought to be just fine. (I was just trying to figure out a way to traverse five miles from a light rail stop to my sister out in the suburbs; the streets are often unsafe for cycles, basically no room for anything except for a sidewalk.)
I'm quite attracted to them. I walk a lot, did bike a lot but both have small inconvenients..
People on gyrowheels can go faster than traffic in urban centers, yet not speeding, they're just coasting along at running speed. Doesn't take space, doesn't add much weight in case of collision, doesn't make the driver feel speeding and not care about pedestrians because he's usually unprotected either. I don't know how efficient they are but I could see this as a regular mode of transportation.
Also wonder how to adapt this for disabled/elders. Something a bit more convenient than an electric wheelchair, a bit leaner. Old people might even have a spot to put a package.
People on gyrowheels can go faster than traffic in urban centers, yet not speeding, they're just coasting along at running speed. Doesn't take space, doesn't add much weight in case of collision, doesn't make the driver feel speeding and not care about pedestrians because he's usually unprotected either. I don't know how efficient they are but I could see this as a regular mode of transportation.
Also wonder how to adapt this for disabled/elders. Something a bit more convenient than an electric wheelchair, a bit leaner. Old people might even have a spot to put a package.
> Also wonder how to adapt this for disabled/elders. Something a bit more convenient than an electric wheelchair, a bit leaner. Old people might even have a spot to put a package.
Small-ish electric motorcycles (scooters with a seat). Gyrowheel is definitely not an option for disabled or elderly folks, or even many more abled ones, they rely too much on the user's ability to remain stable and standing.
Small-ish electric motorcycles (scooters with a seat). Gyrowheel is definitely not an option for disabled or elderly folks, or even many more abled ones, they rely too much on the user's ability to remain stable and standing.
of course gyrowheel would be hectic :) but scooters are ... I don't know off. Something that has the stability of a seated scooter but feels like a chair without feeling like it. Easy.
I have a Ninebot One S2 that I used to commute about 2km daily, but now that I live right next to my office I only ride it recreationally. It has quite a steep learning curve, but it's so much fun once you get good, it feels like magic riding on a single wheel. It's about the most compact powered transportation device you could make
Not sure I've ever seen on of those in my city, this is weird. They seem to be rarer than electric skateboards.
Switching their population to electric scooters, and creating a gigantic electric scooter industry along the way, was one of China's biggest innovation successes.
Now, one in three Chinese cities outright ban any form of two wheeled transportation... because commie lardasses want to "Live Like in America ®"
According to them, everybody are to be riding chauffeured Mercedes S600 limos to demonstrate the wealth and affluence of Chinese nation so, god forbids, no passing by foreigner will ever come to an idea that locals don't have money to buy a car.
Sounds completely bizarre, but it is indeed what laws of many Chinese municipalities actually say.
* Note: what I mean under scooters are light electric mopeds capable keeping up with cars.
Now, one in three Chinese cities outright ban any form of two wheeled transportation... because commie lardasses want to "Live Like in America ®"
According to them, everybody are to be riding chauffeured Mercedes S600 limos to demonstrate the wealth and affluence of Chinese nation so, god forbids, no passing by foreigner will ever come to an idea that locals don't have money to buy a car.
Sounds completely bizarre, but it is indeed what laws of many Chinese municipalities actually say.
* Note: what I mean under scooters are light electric mopeds capable keeping up with cars.
Which cities are those? Last time I was in China, electric scooters were everywhere we went.
That they are electric and not running on gasoline has a really positive impact. Just compare to places like Thailand and Vietnam where the cities have big problems with safety, congestion and polution due to all the 125cc scooters there.
That they are electric and not running on gasoline has a really positive impact. Just compare to places like Thailand and Vietnam where the cities have big problems with safety, congestion and polution due to all the 125cc scooters there.
Shenzhen, Guangzhou urban core.
Shanghai is big on electric scooters at the moment, but declares jihad on anything without bicycle pedals and what can ride faster than 32km/h. Motorcycle licenses are technically/hypothetically available, they cost the same as car plates on the paper, but in reality they cost much more as they go to rich kids who drive H2Rs on the streets.
Shanghai is big on electric scooters at the moment, but declares jihad on anything without bicycle pedals and what can ride faster than 32km/h. Motorcycle licenses are technically/hypothetically available, they cost the same as car plates on the paper, but in reality they cost much more as they go to rich kids who drive H2Rs on the streets.
The scooters you're referring too are more similar to mopeds than what this article is about. The ones in the article are basically electric razor scooters and top out at like 15mph.
I think you are clearly confused what an electric scooter is. The scooter in Asian countries which looks more like a Motor cycle is not the scooter being talked about in the article.
>declares jihad on anything without bicycle pedals and what can ride faster than 32km/h. Motorcycle licenses are technically/hypothetically available
This should sound very familiar to residents of at least one state in the US.
This should sound very familiar to residents of at least one state in the US.
When I was there a few years ago, gas scooters and motorcycles appeared to be banned. Only police rode gas motorbikes. There is a definite trend to get away from a bike as soon as one's prosperity allows. It looks really dangerous to ride in most of Beijing. The Chinese have been working on e-bikes for a long time now. They were not numerous when I was there but if they have improved since then I would believe they could become popular.
I know there is a big bike-share market in China. How does it compare to electric scooters?
Right now, it is enormous in big cities, but so once were the scooters, for which the government was pushing to avert the logistics collapse when the number of cars in big cities began to explode.
China makes some of the best electric scooters out there, but they are forbidden from being driven in most of China...
One nice brand => https://www.niu.com
Edit: I meant proper scooters, not these folding and portable types
One nice brand => https://www.niu.com
Edit: I meant proper scooters, not these folding and portable types
The thing you linked to isn't what the article is talking about. Why did you post it? I'm confused.
You see that type of electric scooter on the roads all over China...
It's the car that is the competitor - you have to maintain roads much more, you have to build large parking garages, global warming is an issue, you push people away from where they work, you have loss of exercise and rising obesity.
Sure it might not work in wintertime - but biking/scooting can surely put a dent in IC engine transportation for two or three seasons.