I Found the Best Burger Place in America, Then I Killed It(thrillist.com)
thrillist.com
I Found the Best Burger Place in America, Then I Killed It
https://www.thrillist.com/eat/portland/stanichs-closed-will-it-reopen-burger-quest
409 comments
Bang on. Right chord.
I think this article is a great advise to people running startups. The review is akin to raising outside money.
I think this article is a great advise to people running startups. The review is akin to raising outside money.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s a weird world where we want founders to be artisans and inventors, but the money can only think “scale now or die.” There are other ways to build a sustainable large-scale business, methodically over time with profitability and a reputation of care for one’s customers. But venture capital isn’t aligned with this type of approach.
Yeah. No citation handy, but I came across an essay describing startups as essentially performing cheap R&D for VCs.
cord (rope) -> chord (musical reference, as in "to strike a chord", ie to resonate)
Not nit-picking, just hoping to clarify for non-native English speakers.
Not nit-picking, just hoping to clarify for non-native English speakers.
Meant chord. Didn't realize. Thanks for pointing it out. Will make the correction.
Except startups solicit the money. It isn't foisted on them like this review.
[deleted]
Yup. I have a startup that was full of people who expected it to stay the way it always was before it grew to millions of annual revenue, and that ended up hurting them when it turned out that I was running a business.
It bothered me some, but I always knew this was potentially in my future. They didn't. This will happen to everyone who runs a startup that has family or close friends involved, especially if they are your customers. Such is life.
It bothered me some, but I always knew this was potentially in my future. They didn't. This will happen to everyone who runs a startup that has family or close friends involved, especially if they are your customers. Such is life.
i heared this phrase:
"make friends in business, don't make business with friends"
that seems to apply here. in the face it sounds like dry advice, but it hints that the changes in business can hurt friendships. it's a sad reality for those that face it unprepared.
greetings, eMBee.
"make friends in business, don't make business with friends"
that seems to apply here. in the face it sounds like dry advice, but it hints that the changes in business can hurt friendships. it's a sad reality for those that face it unprepared.
greetings, eMBee.
Let's hear from a local about what really happened to Stanich's:
https://www.metafilter.com/177718/Sometimes-its-better-not-t...
"Anecdotally, I went to Stanich's a few weeks before the shutdown. They certainly weren't getting overrun with customers at that point. The place was maybe a quarter full on a Friday night, and it was filthy. Dust everywhere, dishes left on tables, stains on the floor, the crust on the ketchup bottles indicating it had been at least a week since anyone bothered wiping them. We watched our food sit at the pass for five minutes before a waitress could be bothered to serve us. The place had all of the hallmark signs of a restaurant going under."
"Did Kevin Alexander hurt Stanich's business by giving them the press? Maybe. But Kevin Alexander isn't responsible for running the restaurant. It isn't Kevin Alexander's job to clean the tables or the floor or the dishes or the ketchup bottles. Stanich killed Stanich's."
https://www.metafilter.com/177718/Sometimes-its-better-not-t...
"Anecdotally, I went to Stanich's a few weeks before the shutdown. They certainly weren't getting overrun with customers at that point. The place was maybe a quarter full on a Friday night, and it was filthy. Dust everywhere, dishes left on tables, stains on the floor, the crust on the ketchup bottles indicating it had been at least a week since anyone bothered wiping them. We watched our food sit at the pass for five minutes before a waitress could be bothered to serve us. The place had all of the hallmark signs of a restaurant going under."
"Did Kevin Alexander hurt Stanich's business by giving them the press? Maybe. But Kevin Alexander isn't responsible for running the restaurant. It isn't Kevin Alexander's job to clean the tables or the floor or the dishes or the ketchup bottles. Stanich killed Stanich's."
Nobody thinks too much business is what hurt Stanich's. Rather, it was too much attention. The pressure of a small-town short order cook all of a sudden having to live up to what Stanich's "could" and "should" be.
One day, he's making the same burgers his dad was 70 years ago. The next, he's getting franchise offers and vitriolic reviews and personal issues. It seems he started cleaning and renovations, and just couldn't bring himself to reopen... much like how many of us here fail to launch startups.
One day, he's making the same burgers his dad was 70 years ago. The next, he's getting franchise offers and vitriolic reviews and personal issues. It seems he started cleaning and renovations, and just couldn't bring himself to reopen... much like how many of us here fail to launch startups.
[deleted]
Yea _reading_ the linked article goes into all of this.
Not really, the author is pretty convinced that he killed the restaurant, despite Stanich mentioning family problems.
Did you actually try to read it? It says so right there:
Apparently, after my story came out, crowds of people started coming in the restaurant, people in from out of town, or from the suburbs, basically just non-regulars. And as the lines started to build up, his employees -- who were mainly family members -- got stressed out, and the stress would cause them to not be as friendly as they should be, or to shout out crazy long wait times for burgers in an attempt to maybe convince people to leave, and as this started happening, things fell by the wayside. Dishes weren’t cleared quickly, and these new people weren’t having the proper Stanich’s experience, and Steve would spend his entire day going around apologizing and trying to fix things.
Apparently, after my story came out, crowds of people started coming in the restaurant, people in from out of town, or from the suburbs, basically just non-regulars. And as the lines started to build up, his employees -- who were mainly family members -- got stressed out, and the stress would cause them to not be as friendly as they should be, or to shout out crazy long wait times for burgers in an attempt to maybe convince people to leave, and as this started happening, things fell by the wayside. Dishes weren’t cleared quickly, and these new people weren’t having the proper Stanich’s experience, and Steve would spend his entire day going around apologizing and trying to fix things.
It seems you and the author have something in common: refusing to believe the man at the center when he says that it wasn't the author's fault. Which he says repeatedly. And he hints at the actual reason, which you and the author just refuse to believe, I guess.
And then, in a quieter voice, he started to explain why it wasn’t just two weeks. He asked me not to reveal the details of that story, but I can say that there were personal problems, the type of serious things that can happen with any family, and would’ve happened regardless of how crowded Stanich’s was, and that real life is always more complicated and messier than we want it to be.
And then, in a quieter voice, he started to explain why it wasn’t just two weeks. He asked me not to reveal the details of that story, but I can say that there were personal problems, the type of serious things that can happen with any family, and would’ve happened regardless of how crowded Stanich’s was, and that real life is always more complicated and messier than we want it to be.
It appears to have been a perfect storm of events. A family problem in a family business can be very stressful, been there, got the tee shirt. Then add on top of that an explosion in business you never really wanted and as a result of the overload, a decline in customer service. That then turned into vitriolic reviews and nasty/hateful answering machine messages. Imagine all of that happening in just a few months. What an awful out of control ride that must have been. No wonder Stanich pulled the plug.
And if people were paying attention, they would have noticed a lot of drug talk from Stanich. Why was Stanich so fixated on talking about drug problems? That usually happens when stuff hits close to home. All speculation on my part but I found it an odd topic for a burger restaurateur.
And if people were paying attention, they would have noticed a lot of drug talk from Stanich. Why was Stanich so fixated on talking about drug problems? That usually happens when stuff hits close to home. All speculation on my part but I found it an odd topic for a burger restaurateur.
> It seems you and the author have something in common: refusing to believe the man at the center when he says that it wasn't the author's fault. Which he says repeatedly.
It’s weird you don’t think the author understands this, given the only reason you know any of that is because the author themselves told you. If he didn’t think it was important, he wouldn’t have included it.
It’s weird you don’t think the author understands this, given the only reason you know any of that is because the author themselves told you. If he didn’t think it was important, he wouldn’t have included it.
[deleted]
Do they really call the place where the orders are picked up "the pass"? :)
Yeah, it's short for "the pass thru". Older restaurants and diners used to cut a hole in the wall between the kitchen and dining area to pass food through. So yes it became known as "the pass". This is where your food sits and collects before it comes out to your table.
It's also where waitstaff pass tickets through to the kitchen. Lots of passing going on back and forth. Hence "the pass".
It's also where waitstaff pass tickets through to the kitchen. Lots of passing going on back and forth. Hence "the pass".
Portland native. Had my first Stanich's burger around 1980.
All I can say is the food reviewer romanticized the place.
The burgers were good, but messy. Like the atmosphere.
Once Perry's opened down the road (now also closed) we kind of stopped going to Stanich's.
All I can say is the food reviewer romanticized the place.
The burgers were good, but messy. Like the atmosphere.
Once Perry's opened down the road (now also closed) we kind of stopped going to Stanich's.
Until earlier this year, I used to live in that neighborhood. I've been to Stanich's -- we could walk there from our house.
This whole episode is bizarre. The food really was not that good. Not by a long shot. Which makes what happened to them all the more sad.
This whole episode is bizarre. The food really was not that good. Not by a long shot. Which makes what happened to them all the more sad.
It's hard to blame Kevin Alexander for this, because Steve Stanich played ball with the review, like most restaurants would. If he wanted to, he could have asked not to be featured in the list, and Alexander probably would have complied; otherwise, he could have done other things to make it clear to his customers that he wasn't interested in fulfilling the role the ranking carved out for him.
We see this effect in Chicago regularly, as I'm sure people in NY and LA do as well; there's a biennial ritual of naming the new "best burger" in the city (it's Kuma's! no, now it's Au Cheval! no, Au Cheval is franchising, time for something fancier --- Mott Street! no wait, the Loyalist†). It definitely "ruins" the restaurant, in the sense that it becomes basically impossible to eat there anymore. But it's hard to fault the businesses for going along! They're there to make a living for themselves.
To the commenters saying Stanich should simply raise its prices: there's a price ceiling for that burger. It's not a fancy chef burger; it's a standard burger shop burger executed well. It seems like the only real scaling option Steve Stanich has, if he's not willing to piss off part of his clientele (a reasonable option!) is to partner and franchise.
† I'm particularly irritated about Loyalist because their bar has one of the best amaro collections in Chicago
We see this effect in Chicago regularly, as I'm sure people in NY and LA do as well; there's a biennial ritual of naming the new "best burger" in the city (it's Kuma's! no, now it's Au Cheval! no, Au Cheval is franchising, time for something fancier --- Mott Street! no wait, the Loyalist†). It definitely "ruins" the restaurant, in the sense that it becomes basically impossible to eat there anymore. But it's hard to fault the businesses for going along! They're there to make a living for themselves.
To the commenters saying Stanich should simply raise its prices: there's a price ceiling for that burger. It's not a fancy chef burger; it's a standard burger shop burger executed well. It seems like the only real scaling option Steve Stanich has, if he's not willing to piss off part of his clientele (a reasonable option!) is to partner and franchise.
† I'm particularly irritated about Loyalist because their bar has one of the best amaro collections in Chicago
> To the commenters saying Stanich should simply raise its prices: there's a price ceiling for that burger. It's not a fancy chef burger;
If you have a five hour lineup for a burger, you need to raise your prices at least a little bit. You'll make more money overall, and your customers will be happy.
If you have a five hour lineup for a burger, you need to raise your prices at least a little bit. You'll make more money overall, and your customers will be happy.
You can do that to a point, but if what you're serving is simply a well-executed diner burger, then, like I said, there's a ceiling. You can't charge $30 for that. Or, you can, but you'll create more problems than you'll solve.
This guy ate at 330 different burger restaurants. He has a finely-tuned metric for what a good burger is (his #3 is also a neighborhood place he grew up with). He's set up to appreciate what Stanich is actually accomplishing with his burger. The average foodie tourist is unlikely to arrive armed with that context; they'll pay $30 for the burger, expect a revelation, and leave unhappy.
This guy ate at 330 different burger restaurants. He has a finely-tuned metric for what a good burger is (his #3 is also a neighborhood place he grew up with). He's set up to appreciate what Stanich is actually accomplishing with his burger. The average foodie tourist is unlikely to arrive armed with that context; they'll pay $30 for the burger, expect a revelation, and leave unhappy.
I think this is the In-n-out effect - people who grew up on it see it as a vastly superior version of McDs, Wendy's etc for the same price, and are understandably effusive about this. But visitors expect something profound instead of a well executed fast food style burger.
That's exactly what it is, a very well executed fast food burger. I mean, I'm not going to trade it for a real good local burger joint burger (Superburger in my area), but that joint burger is 2x times the size plus fixings (depending on what's ordered) and costs 3x the In-n-out burger, and doesn't have a drive through. When you start adding all the variables in, the picture becomes clear.
Oh, and as someone that gets fast food burgers once every week or two, Wendy's has always been particularly high on my list, and McDonald's recent switch to non-frozen patties for quarter pounders has also significantly raised the quality of that product. Even so, In-n-out is still better overall than either in my opinion.
Oh, and as someone that gets fast food burgers once every week or two, Wendy's has always been particularly high on my list, and McDonald's recent switch to non-frozen patties for quarter pounders has also significantly raised the quality of that product. Even so, In-n-out is still better overall than either in my opinion.
As crazy as it sounds, there are people who are adamant that In & Out is not just good relative to fast food, but in fact one of the finest places you can eat, at any price.
Source: I've spoken with a few.
Source: I've spoken with a few.
In the city I live in, a proposal for an In & Out came up. It split down the city in half for reasons; traffic, "In & Out is great", "In & Out is awful", and so forth. Nothing's come of it and as far as I know the lot remains defunct.
Elsewise I too encounter people who hold In & Out on a pedestal simply because of their food. Personally, I've tried and honestly but I just can't. McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Jack In The Box all have better burgers and fries than In & Out for me, but say that to the devout and you'll be shown the door faster than they'll tell you to go to Hell. It's amazing.
Elsewise I too encounter people who hold In & Out on a pedestal simply because of their food. Personally, I've tried and honestly but I just can't. McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Jack In The Box all have better burgers and fries than In & Out for me, but say that to the devout and you'll be shown the door faster than they'll tell you to go to Hell. It's amazing.
In n out is good, but it’s still fast food. That is true. Also, people act it’s Exclaburger instead of a good meal.
Why would you ever expect more than a well executed fast food style burger from, well, a burger. That’s literally what burger means as far as I’m concerned.
[deleted]
There are certainly non-fast-food restaurants that sell burgers.
To give a random example that comes to mind: the burger is one of the most iconic/famous things on the menu at the Spotted Pig, which has a Michelin star. You can't really compare it to McDonald's any more than you could compare any other dish to the fast food version.
To give a random example that comes to mind: the burger is one of the most iconic/famous things on the menu at the Spotted Pig, which has a Michelin star. You can't really compare it to McDonald's any more than you could compare any other dish to the fast food version.
There may indeed be a ceiling. It's not even near whatever he's charging that leads to a 5 hour lineup.
Similar situation, my mother is a lawyer mostly handling wills/estates and real estate deals. Small town law firm, sole practitioner. She's got too many clients, too much work, and she hates turning people away. She's got a small army of secretaries working their asses off. It's good business, but she wants to do less so that eventually she can retire.
She's trying a new strategy: raising prices every 3 months until there's exactly as much work as she wants to do. If things get a bit dry, she can lower prices a bit again. But by fluctuating ever so slightly, she can choose how much work she wants to do.
Similar situation, my mother is a lawyer mostly handling wills/estates and real estate deals. Small town law firm, sole practitioner. She's got too many clients, too much work, and she hates turning people away. She's got a small army of secretaries working their asses off. It's good business, but she wants to do less so that eventually she can retire.
She's trying a new strategy: raising prices every 3 months until there's exactly as much work as she wants to do. If things get a bit dry, she can lower prices a bit again. But by fluctuating ever so slightly, she can choose how much work she wants to do.
I feel like this should be fairly obvious business economics. If there is too much demand for your product for you to service, you should raise your prices until the demand matches what you can produce. It's basic supply and demand.
The opposite applies as well. If you have excess capacity that's going unused, you should lower your prices (down to the marginal cost anyway).
The opposite applies as well. If you have excess capacity that's going unused, you should lower your prices (down to the marginal cost anyway).
Of course there's a ceiling, but you're assuming the ceiling is based on the burger. It's not. It's based on the demand for the burger, and that demand is way, way higher than the supply, so the ceiling is higher than the current price. Pretty simple.
And yes, you can only raise it to a certain point, but you only need to raise it to a certain point: that certain point is the ceiling.
And you don't need to jump from $10 to $30 all at once. You just need to keep raising the price until you find the ceiling where your demand is more reasonable. It's probably more like 30-50% more, rather than 200% more, but who knows. Or better yet, charge more for peak times (like by offering a killer happy hour special during the slow times) to smooth out demand and also serve people who don't want to pay $30 for a burger.
Pricing that is based on cost plus some margin for overhead is so dumb. Price based on demand!
And yes, you can only raise it to a certain point, but you only need to raise it to a certain point: that certain point is the ceiling.
And you don't need to jump from $10 to $30 all at once. You just need to keep raising the price until you find the ceiling where your demand is more reasonable. It's probably more like 30-50% more, rather than 200% more, but who knows. Or better yet, charge more for peak times (like by offering a killer happy hour special during the slow times) to smooth out demand and also serve people who don't want to pay $30 for a burger.
Pricing that is based on cost plus some margin for overhead is so dumb. Price based on demand!
This is a terrible term but I'll use it because it works here: the genre of burger we are talking about here is "cheap burger" (I mean that as a quality/experience descriptor, not price). It's a relatively thin, wide ground chuck patty on a good-but-standard bun; the only "interesting" ingredient they use is hamburger relish.
So, yeah I am explicitly saying that the price ceiling and the demand for the burger aren't as neatly related as it looks, because the substitutes for this particular burger are going to be very close to it in quality (it's possible that for something close to 50% of patrons, this burger will be perceived as "worse" than other cheap burgers they've had, because opinions vary).
If this was that Raoul's burger, where it's ground short rib and brisket with a triple cream brie and a cognac cream dipping sauce, I'd be right there with you. But Stanich is apparently just a cheap diner burger very well executed (in Alexander's estimation, but I have no reason to doubt him). If you charge $30 for that, people will pay (once), and then feel ripped off. For a little while. Then word will get out.
It probably is the best cheap diner burger in America! The dude did the research! I'm just saying, you probably can't charge $30 for a cheap burger, sustainably. You'll do OK in the short term, and then irreversibly harm the business.
Scaling out makes a lot more sense. He probably should franchise.
So, yeah I am explicitly saying that the price ceiling and the demand for the burger aren't as neatly related as it looks, because the substitutes for this particular burger are going to be very close to it in quality (it's possible that for something close to 50% of patrons, this burger will be perceived as "worse" than other cheap burgers they've had, because opinions vary).
If this was that Raoul's burger, where it's ground short rib and brisket with a triple cream brie and a cognac cream dipping sauce, I'd be right there with you. But Stanich is apparently just a cheap diner burger very well executed (in Alexander's estimation, but I have no reason to doubt him). If you charge $30 for that, people will pay (once), and then feel ripped off. For a little while. Then word will get out.
It probably is the best cheap diner burger in America! The dude did the research! I'm just saying, you probably can't charge $30 for a cheap burger, sustainably. You'll do OK in the short term, and then irreversibly harm the business.
Scaling out makes a lot more sense. He probably should franchise.
Again, you're just comparing burgers in isolation, but that's not how it works. This isn't delivery. People pay extra for ambiance, for service, for exclusivity, for visuals, etc. The fact that people are standing in line for 5 hours means that they don't view it as just another cheap burger. They're willing to pay more. I'm half convinced that people in NYC will pay more BECAUSE they stood in line. How else would you know if it's good if there's not a bunch of New Yorkers validating your choices by waiting in the freezing cold too?? :)
And you don't need to charge $30. Charging a few extra bucks probably solves this problem without the downsides you're talking about.
Finally, I'm also not convinced those problems you suggest would be caused by charging $30 are actually problems. Maybe people feel like it wasn't worth it, but so what? Word gets out that the $30 burgers are overpriced...does that mean people will stop coming? There's an entire class of overpriced crappy restaurants that stay busy because of former glory, or location, or whatever. Like almost every big restaurant in a tourist zone of major world cities.
And if they DO stop coming, then doesn't that solve the original problem? Crowds dry up, you drop the prices back down, life goes on.
Just seems like almost anything would be better than throwing your hands up and shutting down the restaurant. Which ironically isn't even what happened here!
And you don't need to charge $30. Charging a few extra bucks probably solves this problem without the downsides you're talking about.
Finally, I'm also not convinced those problems you suggest would be caused by charging $30 are actually problems. Maybe people feel like it wasn't worth it, but so what? Word gets out that the $30 burgers are overpriced...does that mean people will stop coming? There's an entire class of overpriced crappy restaurants that stay busy because of former glory, or location, or whatever. Like almost every big restaurant in a tourist zone of major world cities.
And if they DO stop coming, then doesn't that solve the original problem? Crowds dry up, you drop the prices back down, life goes on.
Just seems like almost anything would be better than throwing your hands up and shutting down the restaurant. Which ironically isn't even what happened here!
The subtext of my argument is that they are standing in line not knowing what they're going to get, expecting (or at least hoping for) a revelation that is not going to come. I agree with Alexander that these burgers are the best burgers (I haven't had this one but am familiar with the genre! The best Chicago burgers from the same genre!), but I think Alexander has, ironically, a more sophisticated take on these things than his readers do.
Remember, the 2nd place burger on his list is an absurd chef burger, even by the standards of chef burgers.
My favorite Chicago food writer has a bit about NYC pizza (he's a former NY-er) that I think captures the spirit of where I'm coming from, which is that the food tourists that seek out the best NYC slice have missed the point entirely, and that the best NYC slice is always within 1-2 blocks of where you're standing.
There's a distinction between being "great" and being "destination food" that this whole article is lamenting people --- I'd include this thread among those people --- not understanding. It's funny to see that misunderstanding expressed on HN in the language of HN --- product pricing and product/market fit.
Remember, the 2nd place burger on his list is an absurd chef burger, even by the standards of chef burgers.
My favorite Chicago food writer has a bit about NYC pizza (he's a former NY-er) that I think captures the spirit of where I'm coming from, which is that the food tourists that seek out the best NYC slice have missed the point entirely, and that the best NYC slice is always within 1-2 blocks of where you're standing.
There's a distinction between being "great" and being "destination food" that this whole article is lamenting people --- I'd include this thread among those people --- not understanding. It's funny to see that misunderstanding expressed on HN in the language of HN --- product pricing and product/market fit.
You have to acknowledge the point he is making, he said you don't have to get to $30 to find the right spot, moreover making it a franchise will definitely take away the lore of the place and quality control. Better to raise the price but have a reward system that keeps the price lower for those who have supported the restaurant for years.
> He probably should franchise.
That assumes that whatever it is that he was doing before things blew up can be scaled. I think it's quite possible that it can't. Particularly as, according to Alexander, the things that pushed the place over the top were intangibles about atmosphere, which isn't reproducible.
Also, "scaling" assumes that the owner wants to scale. If he's only interested in operating a neighborhood burger diner, he probably doesn't.
That assumes that whatever it is that he was doing before things blew up can be scaled. I think it's quite possible that it can't. Particularly as, according to Alexander, the things that pushed the place over the top were intangibles about atmosphere, which isn't reproducible.
Also, "scaling" assumes that the owner wants to scale. If he's only interested in operating a neighborhood burger diner, he probably doesn't.
The article talks about him actively considering franchising. And: I doubt there's really anything to the burger here that can't be replicated. Further: he doesn't have to replicate it perfectly, just enough to serve the local customers he wants to serve while the foodies queue up at the original shop.
> If you charge $30 for that, people will pay (once), and then feel ripped off. For a little while. Then word will get out.
This sounds like exactly what Stanich would have wanted.
This sounds like exactly what Stanich would have wanted.
> If you charge $30 for that, people will pay (once), and then feel ripped off.
Waiting 5h has EXACTLY the same effect. The difference is that in one situation, he will make 10x more profit out of it and will be able to ride the hard months later on.
Waiting 5h has EXACTLY the same effect. The difference is that in one situation, he will make 10x more profit out of it and will be able to ride the hard months later on.
The key isn't just higher prices. It is long term revenue from people who are liekly to buy repeatedly.
My solution would be $30 for tourists, $6 for anyone with a Portland ID and a loyalty card that you get in three seconds. That solves both issues mentioned (one-off, buckelist tickers and loyalty to locals).
My solution would be $30 for tourists, $6 for anyone with a Portland ID and a loyalty card that you get in three seconds. That solves both issues mentioned (one-off, buckelist tickers and loyalty to locals).
> He has a finely-tuned metric for what a good burger is
This is one way to put it. Lets pretend that every burger isn't different, every cook isn't different, ingredients aren't the same from day to day, etc... Then it all becomes having the right combination on the day you get there. And this ignores how the reviewer is feeling, and what they ate and drank already that day and the day before.
This is one way to put it. Lets pretend that every burger isn't different, every cook isn't different, ingredients aren't the same from day to day, etc... Then it all becomes having the right combination on the day you get there. And this ignores how the reviewer is feeling, and what they ate and drank already that day and the day before.
> This guy ate at 330 different burger restaurants. He has a finely-tuned metric for what a good burger is (his #3 is also a neighborhood place he grew up with). He's set up to appreciate what Stanich is actually accomplishing with his burger. The average foodie tourist is unlikely to arrive armed with that context; they'll pay $30 for the burger, expect a revelation, and leave unhappy.
Rubbish. Here's 2006 list of burgers that you must have before you die from GQ:
https://www.gq.com/story/hamburger-death-eat
By Alan Richman who "traveled 23,750 miles and consumed more than 150,000 calories while taking the measure of 162 burgers across the country—with one goal: To find you the best damned assemblage of ground beef and buns this country serves up" -- the boss of a Thrillist writer probably did not even know about that infamous GQ list.
* Number 1 in NYC : Peter Luger. Still there. Accolades did not kill it.
* Number 1 in Philadelphia : Rouge. Rouge burger - still there. Restaurant is going downhill but it has changed owners multiple times -- Neil, who opened it, died a couple of weeks ago.
* Number 1 in Philadelphia (small sliders) : Barclay's Prime - of course it is also still there.
Oh, and yes Rouge raised its prices to handle the load that article generated - the place maybe sat 50, including the bar. And now since it is not as popular as it once was, the prices are lower.
> This guy ate at 330 different burger restaurants. He has a finely-tuned metric for what a good burger is (his #3 is also a neighborhood place he grew up with).
He was just not very good as the closure of his favorite burger places demonstrated.
Rubbish. Here's 2006 list of burgers that you must have before you die from GQ:
https://www.gq.com/story/hamburger-death-eat
By Alan Richman who "traveled 23,750 miles and consumed more than 150,000 calories while taking the measure of 162 burgers across the country—with one goal: To find you the best damned assemblage of ground beef and buns this country serves up" -- the boss of a Thrillist writer probably did not even know about that infamous GQ list.
* Number 1 in NYC : Peter Luger. Still there. Accolades did not kill it.
* Number 1 in Philadelphia : Rouge. Rouge burger - still there. Restaurant is going downhill but it has changed owners multiple times -- Neil, who opened it, died a couple of weeks ago.
* Number 1 in Philadelphia (small sliders) : Barclay's Prime - of course it is also still there.
Oh, and yes Rouge raised its prices to handle the load that article generated - the place maybe sat 50, including the bar. And now since it is not as popular as it once was, the prices are lower.
> This guy ate at 330 different burger restaurants. He has a finely-tuned metric for what a good burger is (his #3 is also a neighborhood place he grew up with).
He was just not very good as the closure of his favorite burger places demonstrated.
> He was just not very good as the closure of his favorite burger places demonstrated.
Is that supposed to imply that as long as the food is good the restaurant will succeed? I've always viewed the food as being good as an almost essential, but by no means sufficient component to a restaurant's success. I've seen plenty of places with good food close.
Is that supposed to imply that as long as the food is good the restaurant will succeed? I've always viewed the food as being good as an almost essential, but by no means sufficient component to a restaurant's success. I've seen plenty of places with good food close.
The Rouge burger was a custom meat blend on challah with gruyere. It's a chef burger. What we're talking about is a ground chuck diner burger on a sesame bun. If this was the Raoul burger, 12 served a day, ground short rib and brisket, I'd be right there with you.
Rouge burger was not a custom meat blend. It was a rouge steak ground from steak into ground meat for the burger as the burger was ordered because there was no space in the kitchen - it was that small.
But that's not the point - the list was of burgers: roll, meat patty, cheese, maybe some other stuff. The one that he raved about had gooish cheese etc. Were there also caramelized onions? It was the "we too can make a burger like those fancy places and not a greasy spoon diner next door".
Burger is a burger. The better the burger the higher its price could be if there are people willing to wait for it.
Chef's burger or no chef's burger - i mean hell, NY Burger Co's burgers beat some of the chef's burgers.
But that's not the point - the list was of burgers: roll, meat patty, cheese, maybe some other stuff. The one that he raved about had gooish cheese etc. Were there also caramelized onions? It was the "we too can make a burger like those fancy places and not a greasy spoon diner next door".
Burger is a burger. The better the burger the higher its price could be if there are people willing to wait for it.
Chef's burger or no chef's burger - i mean hell, NY Burger Co's burgers beat some of the chef's burgers.
That's simply not true. Chef burgers and diner burgers are not the same product, which you can verify for yourself by reading Yelp reviews of the restaurant we're talking about and seeing the shocked comments from people who expected a transcendent chef burger experience from this place which only ever served diner burgers.
I'd rather have a good diner burger than a chef burger, but the whole point of the story is that the author of this ranking had one intention, his readers took away another, and the result was problematic for the restaurant.
I'd rather have a good diner burger than a chef burger, but the whole point of the story is that the author of this ranking had one intention, his readers took away another, and the result was problematic for the restaurant.
Of course they are the same product. The product is a burger. Which is why the burger from Le Bec Fin was a flop while NY Burger Company's burgers are success. On the other hand Peter Luger burger or Rouge Burger or Parc Burger are successes.
It is unquestionable that the reviewer had no clue about a good burger - he picked OK burgers in OK places that were barely hanging on which is why his review targets did poorly. Compare that to burgers ( or restaurants ) picked by the Guy on DDD - in Philly that would be Good Dog, with its Good Dog burger - nothing special except that the cheese is injected into the patty, while it was cooked well enough by people who aren't that skilled at cooking. The wait went from 10-20 minutes to 1.5-2 hours. The place continued to sling the burgers ( and other stuff ) and continued to be popular year after year because unlike the clueless reviewer at Thrillist Guy ( who has a boatload of other problems ) at least can identify a good burger in a place that won't go out of business if its business increases by 400% ( not to mention 10% that his review did -- all of those numbers are well known - Food Network has all the numbers because they do hundreds of shows based on that. The so called magnificent changes in the fortunes of restaurants after Ramsay/Mission Impossible/etc mean 15-30% of receipt increases ) Good Dog was an anomaly in that because they did 3x in business based on the show airing for nearly a year ( DDD shows do ~30%-45% boost on average boost)
It is unquestionable that the reviewer had no clue about a good burger - he picked OK burgers in OK places that were barely hanging on which is why his review targets did poorly. Compare that to burgers ( or restaurants ) picked by the Guy on DDD - in Philly that would be Good Dog, with its Good Dog burger - nothing special except that the cheese is injected into the patty, while it was cooked well enough by people who aren't that skilled at cooking. The wait went from 10-20 minutes to 1.5-2 hours. The place continued to sling the burgers ( and other stuff ) and continued to be popular year after year because unlike the clueless reviewer at Thrillist Guy ( who has a boatload of other problems ) at least can identify a good burger in a place that won't go out of business if its business increases by 400% ( not to mention 10% that his review did -- all of those numbers are well known - Food Network has all the numbers because they do hundreds of shows based on that. The so called magnificent changes in the fortunes of restaurants after Ramsay/Mission Impossible/etc mean 15-30% of receipt increases ) Good Dog was an anomaly in that because they did 3x in business based on the show airing for nearly a year ( DDD shows do ~30%-45% boost on average boost)
Exactly. There's a fine line between a reasonable price with a long line... and raising it where people say "they're price gouging, ugh!" and lose your customers forever because you're no longer someone with a passion for the best burger, you're a sellout for the money.
Supply and demand doesn't work as smoothly as you think. It's the same reason why huge TicketMaster fees exist -- so artists can sell tickets at a "fair" price (any higher would piss off fans) and TM takes the flak for all the "fees", many of which go to the artist/management in the end anyways. Or why shows sell out instead of raising prices -- people simply revolt at pricing they perceive as "unfair". And once they do, it's hard to get the good will back.
Supply and demand doesn't work as smoothly as you think. It's the same reason why huge TicketMaster fees exist -- so artists can sell tickets at a "fair" price (any higher would piss off fans) and TM takes the flak for all the "fees", many of which go to the artist/management in the end anyways. Or why shows sell out instead of raising prices -- people simply revolt at pricing they perceive as "unfair". And once they do, it's hard to get the good will back.
That's actually really interesting about TicketMaster. I can't find any info about it online; but if that's actually what's happening, it's genius—I never thought about that possibility.
This Freakonomics podcast was where it originated, I believe: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/live-event-ticket-market-scr...
There was also a good discussion about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18025209
There was also a good discussion about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18025209
A simple fix for that is to put up a big sign that says "Tourist tax in effect" and make a $25 rebate for any regular customer or person that can prove a local address; or simply assert with a straight face to the staff they live on this and this street. It's a bit of a hassle for the locals but the place is saved.
Sure, the tourists will attack you on Yelp and Instagram and accuse you of price gouging. But to hell with them and their opinion, on the long run only the opinion of the locals matters.
Sure, the tourists will attack you on Yelp and Instagram and accuse you of price gouging. But to hell with them and their opinion, on the long run only the opinion of the locals matters.
> put up a big sign that says "Tourist tax in effect"
No need to be that adversarial. Put up a high price and advertise a discount for anyone who can show ID with a local address.
No need to be that adversarial. Put up a high price and advertise a discount for anyone who can show ID with a local address.
This is already very common in places with lots of rich tourists but low local incomes. Hawaii, for example.
That's how it works where I live. You show your driver's license, you get the local discount.
Vegas?
No, but I have a very good friend in Vegas who says it's similar there.
> No, but I have a very good friend in Vegas who says it's similar there.
Also the strip is where the tourists are, and isn't technically the city of Las Vegas.
A lot of the behaviors people engage in on the strip would get you thrown out of a place that's more locals oriented. They don't take shit off strip.
Also the strip is where the tourists are, and isn't technically the city of Las Vegas.
A lot of the behaviors people engage in on the strip would get you thrown out of a place that's more locals oriented. They don't take shit off strip.
Pedant> Yes it is technically the city of Las Vegas. The strip has a Las Vegas, NV address.
USPS addresses do not exactly map onto local jurisdictions.
Who says TicketMaster didn't raise ticket prices?
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/ticketmaster-c...
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/ticketmaster-c...
Sure, but raising prices by 20% might not do that, but cut the line by 60% without eliminating it.
[deleted]
Thanks for this comment thread, I found it really insightful. Nuance on HN?!
> Nuance on HN?!
Where else‽
Where else‽
OMG an interrobang, my eyes can hardly believe it. Haha. I love the idea (I constantly use '?!' in online chat) but they don't look so great. Also, in chess, !? and ?! have different meanings..
[deleted]
[deleted]
¿¡
This page (in the comments at the bottom of the page) has spanish-speakers using both that and the reversed version, and even the 'gnaborretni' (inverted interrobang) :
https://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/137/origin-and-u...
https://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/137/origin-and-u...
He would, in all likelihood, lose his regulars that had come in for years. For people who just want to make a living, and enjoy life doing it, that might be like losing all your friends.
The article explicitly goes into this, and in my reading at least is the entire point of the story.
I wonder how price-insensitive people pursuing the 'best burger' are.
They've probably made a trip to go eat it, what's another $5 or $10?
They've probably made a trip to go eat it, what's another $5 or $10?
That's exactly the problem! All the viable price increases won't deter the tourists.
Nor your regulars. And that is what they care about, not the fad of people coming in from a list.
Solution may have been to charge very high prices, with discounts if you show drivers license with local address. Then share part of the extra revenue with employees
That's introducing complexity and ability to game the rules for no reason. The solution will come about naturally, either people realize the time waiting for "top ranked" places are not worth it, or other restauranteurs will figure out there is profit to be made and open more restaurants.
It's umami. Au cheval is overrated with the pretentious staff.
I'm not a fan of Small Chauval (too expensive for what you get), and I'm not going to wait 2-3hrs for a burger.
Honestly I'm not sure I'm sold on any destination burger. Google Kenji Alt's ultra-smash burger, and just make them at home.
I'm unhappy about Au Cheval because the rest of the menu is relevant to my interests, but I can't eat there because it's a destination burger restaurant now.
But, back to the point of this article: my problems != Hogsalt Restaurants problems!
I'm unhappy about Au Cheval because the rest of the menu is relevant to my interests, but I can't eat there because it's a destination burger restaurant now.
But, back to the point of this article: my problems != Hogsalt Restaurants problems!
Oh please, the Au Cheval wait has been ridiculous for at least 5 years now. If you have friends and you drink, it’s very easy to plan to hang at one of the bars that’re close by for a couple of hours.
I'm pretty sure that's the only reason that the Lonewolf exists. I've never heard of a time where you can get into Au Chavel without a wait for the time that I've lived here. (About 5+ish years)
If you're going to Au Cheval during the middle of the day, Lonewolf isn't an option. If you're going at peak hours, Lonewolf is likely to be as packeed as anywhere else. I like Lonewolf as much as anyone else does, but if I'm going to make a multi-hour project out of going to a restaurant, it's not going to be Au Cheval.
I have gone there when the place was half empty and told there would be a 20 minute wait, which turned into 40. The hostess told me I needed to download an app to check in for a table. I can go further but I am surprised that place is actually still in business, it has terrible customer service and mediocre over salted food.
Lone wolf is great, but sometimes haymarket has more space. If you go right when it opens at night, you can usually get in pretty quick (I’ve been seated in 15 minutes)
I made a similar comment further down, but if Stanich's took reservations and just held tables for walk ins (and treated regulars/locals preferentially) they would probably have been fine. Takes more front of house effort though, and he probably still should've raised his prices a bit.
In an episode of the anime series "Food Wars", the main character basically does this at the restaurant he is assigned to internship at.
He and another chef student are assigned a local restaurant which is regularly and completely swamped by commuters; commuters flood the restaurant, everything is crowded, kitchen is over crazy, and then everyone evaporates to catch the next train home. Every day. Local eaters be damned. On the surface business is booming [daily rush of commuters!] but in reality there's a struggle.
Main character figures to go "reservation only". Walk-in commuters not allowed unless they have a reservation; no walk-by "I'll grab some sushi". Owners freak but are desperate... and things work out. A local comes in for his reservation and comments how he hasn't been able to come by for months because it's always so crowded, but he's oh so happy that the waitress remembers his regular order. Restaurant survives and within sanity.
He and another chef student are assigned a local restaurant which is regularly and completely swamped by commuters; commuters flood the restaurant, everything is crowded, kitchen is over crazy, and then everyone evaporates to catch the next train home. Every day. Local eaters be damned. On the surface business is booming [daily rush of commuters!] but in reality there's a struggle.
Main character figures to go "reservation only". Walk-in commuters not allowed unless they have a reservation; no walk-by "I'll grab some sushi". Owners freak but are desperate... and things work out. A local comes in for his reservation and comments how he hasn't been able to come by for months because it's always so crowded, but he's oh so happy that the waitress remembers his regular order. Restaurant survives and within sanity.
If "Raoul's only makes 12 burgers a night." can fly, it seems like _something_ can be done here too. That said, it sounds like the guy has some complicating life circumstances, and maybe we should just all get out of his way and let him take a few months or a few years to straighten things out before he parlays this enormous PR win into a new venture.
> It definitely "ruins" the restaurant, in the sense that it becomes basically impossible to eat there anymore
Worse. The people who eat there change from those who enjoy food to those who enjoy the idea. That takes the right kind of pressure off the chef and owners and substitutes it with the wrong kind, e.g. Instagrammability.
Worse. The people who eat there change from those who enjoy food to those who enjoy the idea. That takes the right kind of pressure off the chef and owners and substitutes it with the wrong kind, e.g. Instagrammability.
I was just going to say - if you get some viral exposure as a business, you get customers who only want to be associated with something popular. It's probably an odd feeling; sure you're successful, but it's not because of your hard work, it's because of the journalist's.
> To the commenters saying Stanich should simply raise its prices: there's a price ceiling for that burger. It's not a fancy chef burger; it's a standard burger shop burger executed well.
That's incorrect. Chef driven burgers are no different from the other burgers - the prices are raised until the price no longer can be raised. As long as Suzi from Chicago is willing to make a trip to Portland and she does not balk at $14 burger, the burger should go up from $13 to $14.
That's incorrect. Chef driven burgers are no different from the other burgers - the prices are raised until the price no longer can be raised. As long as Suzi from Chicago is willing to make a trip to Portland and she does not balk at $14 burger, the burger should go up from $13 to $14.
I don't think that's true, but it's being discussed ad nauseam upthread if you're interested.
It is discussed by people who believe the restaurant business is special, which is demonstrated time and time again not to be the case.
It is a standard supply and demand issue. It is studied ad nauseam in business schools. Raising prices is a standard way to drop the demand. It works for restaurants because they are one of the simplest businesses.
It is a standard supply and demand issue. It is studied ad nauseam in business schools. Raising prices is a standard way to drop the demand. It works for restaurants because they are one of the simplest businesses.
It's not complicated. The Stanich burger probably isn't even 50% better than locally available substitutes, let alone 500%. There's a bubble in interest in the restaurant due to the ranking. Most of the people willing to pay bubble premiums (in fact, probably all of them) have never used the product before, but have used substitutes. If you price to capture the premium from the bubble, you'll make more money in the short term, and alienate the customers that are going to keep you afloat after the bubble bursts.
> I'm sure people in NY and LA do as well
In NYC we see this for pizza and ramen and maybe dim sum, but not burgers for whatever reason. If you look at the top 10 burger places in NYC, some are ridiculously crowded and some aren't, but the ones that are crowded (e.g. The NoMad bar) aren't crowded because of the burgers. They're probably at capacity during peak hours at night, but you don't see hour long lines at 10am on a weekday like you do with some other food types.
In NYC we see this for pizza and ramen and maybe dim sum, but not burgers for whatever reason. If you look at the top 10 burger places in NYC, some are ridiculously crowded and some aren't, but the ones that are crowded (e.g. The NoMad bar) aren't crowded because of the burgers. They're probably at capacity during peak hours at night, but you don't see hour long lines at 10am on a weekday like you do with some other food types.
Au Cheval is easily the most overrated burger (and perhaps restaurant) in Chicago. Hey guess what, if you make a 12oz burger, put three slices of cheese on it, place it on a buttered roll, then put pork belly, a fried egg, and mayo on it, it will taste good. And it will also make you want to freakin die the moment you're done because you just consumed 25,000 calories. But people will wait literally 2.5 hours for this anyway because hey that's where Grant Achatz goes to eat burgers.
Grant Achatz is famously a fiend for Potbelly (a cheap chain that is like a notch up from Quiznos). I don't know that it's fair to ding him with Au Cheval.
I hear good things about the rest of Au Cheval's menu!
I hear good things about the rest of Au Cheval's menu!
Yeah, would be nice to try it but the wait make Hot Doug's look brief.
I once waited in line at Hot Doug's and when I reached the front, a dude in a limo pulled up and offered to buy my place in line for $100. I didn't take him up on it, but one of the dudes I was there with did!
It turns out though that there was a secret to Hot Doug's, which is that you could just fax an order in and then skip the line to pick it up. I always worried that the line would murder me when I did that.
It turns out though that there was a secret to Hot Doug's, which is that you could just fax an order in and then skip the line to pick it up. I always worried that the line would murder me when I did that.
You didn't even need to fax, you could call. That was literally the only way I would go after my first trip when I stood in that miserable line. Originally you could call in a takeout order anytime. Then he limited it to weekdays. Then he cut Friday's. Sometime in the last year of operation he stopped phone-in orders altogether. There was nothing better than saying, "Excuse me" 20 times as I bypassed the line to pickup an order, as the people standing in line had emotions ranging from bewilderment to rage. Then I would walk out with a bag of food and a smile on my face and everyone was in shock. In summer I would just plop down on that picnic table next door. Good times.
Hey now. Potbelly's a solid two or three steps up from Quiznos. I'll house a Potbelly sandwich anytime--you won't catch me dead in a Quiznos.
I completely disagree with your opinion, but to each their own. Also, people are comfortable with the 2.5 hour wait (or more!) because they can just go hang in one of the many bars in the area during that time.
You can now get the Au Cheval burger at lots of places easily. I do 3 greens regularly. It’s a fine burger.
The real shame is that Au Cheval used to be a nice spot for a beer & burger on a street that was expensive.
Still hard to find good priced, good food on Randolph.
The real shame is that Au Cheval used to be a nice spot for a beer & burger on a street that was expensive.
Still hard to find good priced, good food on Randolph.
Bonci? (Not a sit down place though...)
Go to lockdown and get the arson burger with the whole slice of habanero on it.
> because Steve Stanich played ball with the review, like most restaurants would
Is he the person to understand what will happen? Or is it more the writer who would understand that?
Is he the person to understand what will happen? Or is it more the writer who would understand that?
> It definitely "ruins" the restaurant, in the sense that it becomes basically impossible to eat there anymore.
This just happened for me with a tiny little southern restaurant down the street from me. For about a year, I would go there occasionally and have a great meal with my SO. Never needed a reservation. Then it got a three star review from the new york times and it won the James Beard Best New Restaurant award, one of two won by the chef that night. I've basically written it off, as I'll never be able to compete with every seattlite and food tourist breaking down the doors to get in. It's sad for me, but I'm glad he's gotten the recognition he deserves.
This just happened for me with a tiny little southern restaurant down the street from me. For about a year, I would go there occasionally and have a great meal with my SO. Never needed a reservation. Then it got a three star review from the new york times and it won the James Beard Best New Restaurant award, one of two won by the chef that night. I've basically written it off, as I'll never be able to compete with every seattlite and food tourist breaking down the doors to get in. It's sad for me, but I'm glad he's gotten the recognition he deserves.
Sounds exactly like the Country Cat in Portland.
There's an easy solution to having too much business : raise prices. I think this is one of A16Z's big insights into most businesses[1]: they don't charge enough.
If you look at the best restaurants in America like the French Laundry in Napa, they charge astronomical ridiculous prices and they still have reservations for months ahead of time. The oldest restaurant in Paris requires you put down a 400 euro deposit just to make a reservation! That these burger joint owners shut down instead of raising prices seems like a huge business mistake. They could have put 50% off coupons in the local newspaper or something if they wanted to make the place available to locals at reasonable prices.
[1] https://a16z.com/2016/08/13/pricing/
If you look at the best restaurants in America like the French Laundry in Napa, they charge astronomical ridiculous prices and they still have reservations for months ahead of time. The oldest restaurant in Paris requires you put down a 400 euro deposit just to make a reservation! That these burger joint owners shut down instead of raising prices seems like a huge business mistake. They could have put 50% off coupons in the local newspaper or something if they wanted to make the place available to locals at reasonable prices.
[1] https://a16z.com/2016/08/13/pricing/
This is a classic humans are rational actors and spherical volumes in empty space economic answer, which entirely misses the point.
The restaurants we love, we love for the entire experience, and price is part of that experience. Even for people who can happily afford the higher price, it still results in a different experience. The people around you in the restaurant will be different. Your perception of the value of the meal will be different. Your willingness to try more adventurous items on the menu will be different. The whole thing is not just quantitatively different, but qualitatively different.
A $20 burger is not a $10 burger, regardless of how the two are prepared. If the former is not the experience the chef wants to create for their customers then, no, just raising prices doesn't "solve" the problem.
The restaurants we love, we love for the entire experience, and price is part of that experience. Even for people who can happily afford the higher price, it still results in a different experience. The people around you in the restaurant will be different. Your perception of the value of the meal will be different. Your willingness to try more adventurous items on the menu will be different. The whole thing is not just quantitatively different, but qualitatively different.
A $20 burger is not a $10 burger, regardless of how the two are prepared. If the former is not the experience the chef wants to create for their customers then, no, just raising prices doesn't "solve" the problem.
The customers you made money from when you're starting out don't have to be the same customers you make money from when your restaurant hits the big time.
What if you don't want the new customers, you want the original ones
some people start a business for reasons more complicated than making the maximum amount of dollars.
At this point it's not about earning money, it's about not getting overworked to death.
Raising prices sounds like the best strategy. You keep raising until the workload returns to normal. If you feel you're serving the wrong customers, you now have time to figure out how to fix that. Otherwise, if people eventually get turned off by the price and your workload goes down, you drop the price, and keep dropping it until you reach a stable point with just the right amount of orders.
Raising prices sounds like the best strategy. You keep raising until the workload returns to normal. If you feel you're serving the wrong customers, you now have time to figure out how to fix that. Otherwise, if people eventually get turned off by the price and your workload goes down, you drop the price, and keep dropping it until you reach a stable point with just the right amount of orders.
There's risk associated in shunning your existing clientele in hopes of attracting a newer, more premium clientele.
If clients have to wait hours for a burger, the existing clientele is gone either way. If you end up folding, the existing clientele is hosed anyway.
And as the original commenter noted, you could put coupons in the local newspaper and the library and whatever else, so the locals have access to burgers at the old price.
And as the original commenter noted, you could put coupons in the local newspaper and the library and whatever else, so the locals have access to burgers at the old price.
Or you have someone whose job it is to stand outside and memorize the names and faces of local patrons and turn away any newcomer who can't present an ID with a local address. You can have a second entrance for everyone else, takeout-only, with an hours-long wait, which plenty of food tourists will happily endure.
I see you are familiar with Berlin nightclubs!
Lots of bars have "regulars" that they give unadvertised discounts too. This isn't an unsolved problem, you don't even need to go as far as coupons.
I think this is the point many people are seemingly missing.
Ask any family restaurant/bar owner in a seasonal tourist destination and they’ll explain why locals must be one of the first considerations before you make drastic changes. Particularly if an important reason for opening was a personal preference to serve locals over tourists in the first place.
It’s incredibly interesting to see how few people understand that someone may open a business with priorities other than massive growth potential.
Ask any family restaurant/bar owner in a seasonal tourist destination and they’ll explain why locals must be one of the first considerations before you make drastic changes. Particularly if an important reason for opening was a personal preference to serve locals over tourists in the first place.
It’s incredibly interesting to see how few people understand that someone may open a business with priorities other than massive growth potential.
>It’s incredibly interesting to see how few people understand that someone may open a business with priorities other than massive growth potential.
It really is interesting, but hardly surprising, given the demographics of this forum. :)
It really is interesting, but hardly surprising, given the demographics of this forum. :)
Certainly less risk than just closing up shop.
If there's enough demand, then it should be possible to increase capacity.
Raising prices would reduce the volume of customers, so the restaurant could maintain its quality standard, but Stanich felt his mission was to give back to the local community of regular diners. He didn't want to price out regular, repeat customers from the neighborhood and have only tourists eating there.
Others in this thread have suggested that the restaurant give locals a 'locals card', which would allow them to purchase food at a more reasonable price.
Burger pass. $30 for a burger pass. Gets you burgers for $4 for the rest of the year. or pay $20 for a burger now. You can secretly give out burger passes to locals when the tourists aren't looking.
I live in a touristy area with lots of great, but high demand and correspondingly high priced, restaurants.
Several of the local places do "frequent diner/visitor" loyalty cards, where the 5th or 9th meal (for restaurants), coffee (coffee shops), etc are free. This offsets the otherwise high prices charged on menu items.
Also, once a year (during the off season, of course), the local high school sells a booster card that gets a percent discount off for the entire year at numerous local places.
This is of course not unique to a touristy area, but I find myself using them far more often than in other places I've lived.
Several of the local places do "frequent diner/visitor" loyalty cards, where the 5th or 9th meal (for restaurants), coffee (coffee shops), etc are free. This offsets the otherwise high prices charged on menu items.
Also, once a year (during the off season, of course), the local high school sells a booster card that gets a percent discount off for the entire year at numerous local places.
This is of course not unique to a touristy area, but I find myself using them far more often than in other places I've lived.
Smashburger actually had something close to this for a while. SmashPasss, it was like $100 bucks for the right to get a burger a day for 100 days.
https://smashburger.com/smashpass/
https://smashburger.com/smashpass/
This sounds like a super good idea to me, I really love it. Seems pretty simple but just makes a lot of sense.
Any person travelling just coming by for the "best burger" probably would not want to spend $34 and not use that card anymore so $20 sounds great. Any regular would probably be super cool with paying that extra $30 knowing they can get a burger once a week or whatever for $4. This works out for the restaurant and the regulars, and like you said they can just hand out those cards to anyone for any reason.
Any person travelling just coming by for the "best burger" probably would not want to spend $34 and not use that card anymore so $20 sounds great. Any regular would probably be super cool with paying that extra $30 knowing they can get a burger once a week or whatever for $4. This works out for the restaurant and the regulars, and like you said they can just hand out those cards to anyone for any reason.
[deleted]
Why not just look at driver's licenses and student ids instead? Disney parks do the same thing - cheaper prices for locals
Well, sure, but having the customer flash a card to the employee would save more time than having the customer hand over the card for inspection by an employee.
...but it would invite a secondary market for these cards. The logistics of fabricating them would suck, and you have to look at an ID to judge if a card should offered anyway.
Plus having special cards feels corporate, not homey. Looking at an ID for locals discount is pretty well trodden ground.
Plus having special cards feels corporate, not homey. Looking at an ID for locals discount is pretty well trodden ground.
> but it would invite a secondary market for these cards
There are already markets for fake IDs, so unless you're suggesting that small local restaurants purchase scanners to confirm the authenticity of each ID, it would be relatively easy to circumvent this check too. (Some states require IDs to be scanned for selling alcohol, but many, e.g. in Oregon, do not, and the only check is some employee looking at a card in their hands for a couple of seconds)
> Plus having special cards feels corporate
Not at all. Plenty of local restaurants in my are (Portland, OR) have rewards cards, where you get stamps and a free meal after some amount of stamps.
There are already markets for fake IDs, so unless you're suggesting that small local restaurants purchase scanners to confirm the authenticity of each ID, it would be relatively easy to circumvent this check too. (Some states require IDs to be scanned for selling alcohol, but many, e.g. in Oregon, do not, and the only check is some employee looking at a card in their hands for a couple of seconds)
> Plus having special cards feels corporate
Not at all. Plenty of local restaurants in my are (Portland, OR) have rewards cards, where you get stamps and a free meal after some amount of stamps.
The high prices would be to ward off these one-time customers who are only there for the single instagram photo. If someone is invested enough to make a fake ID just for cheaper burgers, presumably they're going to be repeat customers that develop a relationship with the restaurant, which is what he wants.
Isn't the mere possession of a fake ID illegal where the restaurant was operating? Whereas buying a coupon from someone isn't.
Wouldn't checking an already existing ID card be easier vs printing up and distributing specialized cards?
The point is, there are ways to distinguish between locals and non-locals. There are merits and drawbacks to having your own ID card vs. using a state ID card.
Also... he was just burned out. An experience many here may identify with. That's why the place is still closed.
It's possible there was something he could have done to make things good again... if he wasn't too burned out by the experience to figure it out and carry it out.
It's possible there was something he could have done to make things good again... if he wasn't too burned out by the experience to figure it out and carry it out.
What about raising prices (at the exclusion of the locals), and then using the increased revenue to philanthropically give back to the community in a meaningful way?
Seems like the way he had before was pretty meaningful to the community, given how bummed people sound about the closure.
There are some things in a capitalist society that are the domain of philanthropy, and some things that are not. A school or library might be a suitable target of philanthropy, but a burger place or pub or barber shop isn't; there's no way to fund it and have it end up the same sort of place it would be on its own.
At best, it can be a target of a GoFundMe or something - but that's just to pay operating costs. The store itself has to operate like a normal capitalist store for the concept to work, accepting customers, charging money, etc. There is no concept in our society of a non-profit burger joint.
At best, it can be a target of a GoFundMe or something - but that's just to pay operating costs. The store itself has to operate like a normal capitalist store for the concept to work, accepting customers, charging money, etc. There is no concept in our society of a non-profit burger joint.
I think daveslash was suggesting the burger joint runs as the for-profit entity that it already is and that it is the source of the philanthropy, not the target.
To give an example, charge exorbitant prices for burgers knowing there are still people desperate enough to try the burger that paying $30 is fine and then use the extra revenue to give back to the community, possibly by paying for the local soccer club to get a new clubhouse, or possibly by providing free/subsidized burgers at local events where the crowd will be local. In this way the business stays open and isn't overwhelmed by the demand, while not completely isolating itself from the local community that the owner wants to give back to.
To give an example, charge exorbitant prices for burgers knowing there are still people desperate enough to try the burger that paying $30 is fine and then use the extra revenue to give back to the community, possibly by paying for the local soccer club to get a new clubhouse, or possibly by providing free/subsidized burgers at local events where the crowd will be local. In this way the business stays open and isn't overwhelmed by the demand, while not completely isolating itself from the local community that the owner wants to give back to.
Yes, that is how I understood 'daveslash. My claim is that this fails to accomplish any of the goals of the burger joint's owner: he wants to provide a burger joint for the community, not a soccer club for the community. Saying "Why don't you run a fancy burger place and help the community in other ways than you wanted" isn't actually a solution to anything.
Thank you Haegin for clarifying what I was trying to say.
Can't you buy a burger place, reduce the price to give zero profit, adjust the price on the fly to ensure zero profit.
Sure you won't necessarily meet demand, but there's no inherent reason quality need suffer(?).
Or, have a coop where staff wages soak up all excess revenue, giving zero profit.
You'd want a contingency, and a savings account if you seek to expand the business, but they're not profit.
We could do that with all businesses I think.
Sure you won't necessarily meet demand, but there's no inherent reason quality need suffer(?).
Or, have a coop where staff wages soak up all excess revenue, giving zero profit.
You'd want a contingency, and a savings account if you seek to expand the business, but they're not profit.
We could do that with all businesses I think.
I love this idea: zero profit capitalism. Sure some people would abuse savings accounts more than others, but taxing standing profits on a gradually increasing scale the longer they stand (sure the market already does this at a minute level, but it's not enough to deter wealth hoarding) seems like an effective way to solve the wealth extraction problem corporations introduce.
Brings to mind Paul Newman: https://newmansown.com/
GP is suggesting the burger place become a source (or maybe a conduit) of philanthropy, not a target.
And how did that work out?
Maybe a better approach would be to jack prices up sky high for tourists and open another burger joint with a different name for locals.
Maybe a better approach would be to jack prices up sky high for tourists and open another burger joint with a different name for locals.
They live in a community. If they raise prices such that their friends and neighbors can not afford to eat there, they will become social pariahs. It would be very difficult to do, and it would alienate the very people they probably wanted to be serving.
If you’re a restaurateur, you probably don’t even live near that restaurant. But this advice is tantamount to: tell your friends and everyone who helped you get where you are that they’re too poor for you, now.
If you’re a restaurateur, you probably don’t even live near that restaurant. But this advice is tantamount to: tell your friends and everyone who helped you get where you are that they’re too poor for you, now.
It’s called supply and demand. If there is a 5 hour wait, there’s a problem: no local will wait 5 hours for a burger so you exclude them anyway. Price is the best mechanism to address supply and demand.
Thats not a solution for the problem though, if your goal is to keep your old customer base. It is only a solution if you view your restaurant as an investment instead of a passion. The counter example from the article is Paiche.
edit: To give another example, I have a kebab shop in my neighborhood who will not take any orders by phone let alone online. They dont have flyers or a web presence. Its a small street faced window run by an immigrant family who keeps the booth open throughout the day, from 11 to 11 longer or shorter depending on when they are out for the day. Most of the time the place is empty but during mealtimes there is regularly a line for half an hour. For the area, this is extremely well. And they sit right next to two other kebab shops, a pizza place and two asian places with mostly no line, literally the street down in 3 minute walking distance.
The reasonable thing would be to close the shop in the afternoon and take orders in advance, but thats not what they want for their shop. They want to talk and be a place where people meet, despite them not having any tables and not serving any drinks except a tea on the house from time to time.
And their food is absolutely amazing. Home made sauce and bread, it is worth the wait or to eat at 4pm in the afternoon. They dont let them self get rushed and it is always an amazing meal.
edit: To give another example, I have a kebab shop in my neighborhood who will not take any orders by phone let alone online. They dont have flyers or a web presence. Its a small street faced window run by an immigrant family who keeps the booth open throughout the day, from 11 to 11 longer or shorter depending on when they are out for the day. Most of the time the place is empty but during mealtimes there is regularly a line for half an hour. For the area, this is extremely well. And they sit right next to two other kebab shops, a pizza place and two asian places with mostly no line, literally the street down in 3 minute walking distance.
The reasonable thing would be to close the shop in the afternoon and take orders in advance, but thats not what they want for their shop. They want to talk and be a place where people meet, despite them not having any tables and not serving any drinks except a tea on the house from time to time.
And their food is absolutely amazing. Home made sauce and bread, it is worth the wait or to eat at 4pm in the afternoon. They dont let them self get rushed and it is always an amazing meal.
All the successful restaurants I've experienced chose to give preferential treatment to locals and regulars. That's because they often give the place the charme that makes it special in the first place. And that the business is rather cyclical, and you don't want to end up without tourists AND local all hating you.
At the point where you're running 20 tables or more for three rounds every night (plus mabybe 2x lunch) you stop caring about making more money. Because if money were that important, you would have gone into investment banker, not chef.
Plus restaurants tend to get into and out of favour. IT'
And everyone hates tourist. Seriously: if you work anywhere close to tourists, you will hate work because it's full of tourists. Then you take a vacation and start hating yourself.
At the point where you're running 20 tables or more for three rounds every night (plus mabybe 2x lunch) you stop caring about making more money. Because if money were that important, you would have gone into investment banker, not chef.
Plus restaurants tend to get into and out of favour. IT'
And everyone hates tourist. Seriously: if you work anywhere close to tourists, you will hate work because it's full of tourists. Then you take a vacation and start hating yourself.
Provide a locals only card that gives reduced pricing, could even have a locals only day once a week.
Ten minutes later a "locals only" card goes on eBay.
To what end?
The whole idea is that non-locals are probably going to buy 1 burger per year or perhaps lifetime.
These kind of people don't fiddle with ebay and paying a random guy just to get 25% off of a burger that they will use once.
The whole idea is that non-locals are probably going to buy 1 burger per year or perhaps lifetime.
These kind of people don't fiddle with ebay and paying a random guy just to get 25% off of a burger that they will use once.
Doesn’t matter. It’s still rate limited.
To who?
Someone that is only going to go there once or twice? Then it won't cause a problem.
Someone that isn't a local, but goes to the place over and over anyway? Consider them an honorary local.
Someone that is only going to go there once or twice? Then it won't cause a problem.
Someone that isn't a local, but goes to the place over and over anyway? Consider them an honorary local.
Check ID address, ban people caught reselling, etc.
Get creative you're now a destination restaurant and can charge $50+ a burger. Or go out of business I guess.
Get creative you're now a destination restaurant and can charge $50+ a burger. Or go out of business I guess.
I wonder if you could switch the 'locals only' card for just requiring proof of address on a driving license or utility bill. Might still be a problem with locals offering 'burger tours' - you pay me $10, I buy the burgers for $5 because they'd charge you $20, everyone is happy (except the restaurant).
There's no need to go that deep.
Imagine you were taking a trip to Dallas. You're taking PTO, paying for flight/hotel, and so on.
Are you really going to waste time buying a local's 30% off card on ebay that you will use once a year? Maybe once in your life? No way.
Even if you did, what is the result? A handful of people hustled you for a few bucks, but still generated profit for your restaurant.
Imagine you were taking a trip to Dallas. You're taking PTO, paying for flight/hotel, and so on.
Are you really going to waste time buying a local's 30% off card on ebay that you will use once a year? Maybe once in your life? No way.
Even if you did, what is the result? A handful of people hustled you for a few bucks, but still generated profit for your restaurant.
But then the local doesn't get the discount burger, and the out of towner gets to use it once.
Presumably it would also expire, so it would be that locals loss rather than the restaurants.
Presumably it would also expire, so it would be that locals loss rather than the restaurants.
Years ago I worked at a place downtown that was blocks away from a Thai restaurant that had a line out the door every day. The place was frenetic, like a zoo. The staff in the kitchen were running around like maniacs, making food as fast as they possibly could. The pictures on the menu above the register were all faded with age.
The food was merely okay. The story was that it was cheap and decent, not good. But as I stood looking at the staff I couldn't help thinking that it would be better for everyone if they raised their prices $2 a plate and just slowed down.
The food was merely okay. The story was that it was cheap and decent, not good. But as I stood looking at the staff I couldn't help thinking that it would be better for everyone if they raised their prices $2 a plate and just slowed down.
$2 a plate can be enough to price it out of being a reasonable regular option for people. A food cart in a pod near my work moved into a just-as-close physical restaurant and raised their prices by about $2 plate and I went from eating there once every week or two, to maybe once a year.
In a similar vein we have a lot of bakeries here run by a local Vietnamese population. They do these amazing pork rolls for $5, which is very cheap for food in Australia (A big Mac meal is around $12 for perspective). They are popular because of the price and if they were $7 they would sell far far less.
You're making the point for them...adding even $1 to the price will ratchet the demand down to reasonable levels, and you'll end up making a little more money with lower stress levels.
Especially if it is at a threshold amount, there even a small hike will scare away customers. While not reasonable, it is a psychological effect. Take the jump from 5€ to 6€. I witnessed the same on myself with a normal dish of fried rice from a take away place. 4,5€ is cheap, 5€ expected, 5,5€ makes no difference, but 6€??
No matter how stupid, the jump by 50cent to 6€ gets me every time. It makes no sense, but I start to calculate what I could get instead on the cheap end. Breakfast to go is the same with 3€ to 3,5€ to 4€. I mean could get a portion of fried rice for 4€! Same goes for pizza or any number of take away items.
It doesnt help that most shop owners arent stupid and optimized for those thresholds.
No matter how stupid, the jump by 50cent to 6€ gets me every time. It makes no sense, but I start to calculate what I could get instead on the cheap end. Breakfast to go is the same with 3€ to 3,5€ to 4€. I mean could get a portion of fried rice for 4€! Same goes for pizza or any number of take away items.
It doesnt help that most shop owners arent stupid and optimized for those thresholds.
Yes, but if you read the article that wasn't the problem:
And then, in a quieter voice, he started to explain why it wasn’t just two weeks. He asked me not to reveal the details of that story, but I can say that there were personal problems, the type of serious things that can happen with any family, and would’ve happened regardless of how crowded Stanich’s was
And then, in a quieter voice, he started to explain why it wasn’t just two weeks. He asked me not to reveal the details of that story, but I can say that there were personal problems, the type of serious things that can happen with any family, and would’ve happened regardless of how crowded Stanich’s was
Yes, this is the classic gentrification problem. Now you've turned a restaurant that locals can visit into a purely tourist attract that only the upper class can enjoy. This solves the problem of the restaurant owners having to close down, but for all the locals the restaurant might as well be gone.
P.S. And then when the next "top N burger joints in America" list comes out that everyone goes crazy for and all the burger-tourists start going somewhere else now you've lost your local customer base and you might go out of business regardless. Raising prices works well if you're a fine dining establishment in a dense metro area and that's the kind of business you expect to run. It doesn't work so well for burger joints or BBQ shacks elevated to a bizarre level of temporary fame.
P.S. And then when the next "top N burger joints in America" list comes out that everyone goes crazy for and all the burger-tourists start going somewhere else now you've lost your local customer base and you might go out of business regardless. Raising prices works well if you're a fine dining establishment in a dense metro area and that's the kind of business you expect to run. It doesn't work so well for burger joints or BBQ shacks elevated to a bizarre level of temporary fame.
> And then when the next "top N burger joints in America" list comes out that everyone goes crazy for and all the burger-tourists start going somewhere else now you've lost your local customer base and you might go out of business regardless.
Then lower your prices again to match demand. It's almost as if prices aren't set in stone.
Then lower your prices again to match demand. It's almost as if prices aren't set in stone.
You're missing the important detail here: you've destroyed the relationship with your local regulars. They aren't going to return just because prices are affordable, they're going to find other places to be their regular burger shop.
> They aren't going to return just because prices are affordable
I seriously doubt it. Do you have any empirical evidence for this?
I seriously doubt it. Do you have any empirical evidence for this?
I would do it like this: I would create a yearly --- no, make that lifetime membership pass which can be obtained for $30 or whatever. The locals would get this for free. With the membership pass, you would go to a separate lineup which has priority over the regular line up. Then I would work the the same relaxed pace as before, not caring whether 3 people are waiting or 300. The membership pass could make users and their guests eligible for a discount, like 15-25% off. Nothing too drastic.
> not caring whether 3 people are waiting or 300.
Maybe you truly can do that, but it is not easy.
Maybe you truly can do that, but it is not easy.
Then this prices out the neighborhood locals who made the place successful in the first place. These are people that the owner and workers know and care about. I think he could care less about the tourists that come in once just to Instagram their "best burger in America".
>>Then this prices out the neighborhood locals who made the place successful in the first place.
Did they really make the place successful though? I don't see what exactly they contributed to the business. Had the locals not liked the food they probably would never have returned and would have also told all their friends never to go there.
Did they really make the place successful though? I don't see what exactly they contributed to the business. Had the locals not liked the food they probably would never have returned and would have also told all their friends never to go there.
That poses a substential risk to the business. You are changing your entire customer base over night. If you are a small restaurant like the one in the article, it is unlikely, that your earlier customers will book month in advance, even at half price.
Your old customer base was hopefully working, but your new customers expect the words greatest burger. Can you deliver on that hype?
The owner above payed month of utilities for an empty restaurant and has to make a sizeable investment to cater to that new customerbase.
Unless you didnt have a functioning business model beforehand, this is a real curse and puts your livelihood at stakes.
Your old customer base was hopefully working, but your new customers expect the words greatest burger. Can you deliver on that hype?
The owner above payed month of utilities for an empty restaurant and has to make a sizeable investment to cater to that new customerbase.
Unless you didnt have a functioning business model beforehand, this is a real curse and puts your livelihood at stakes.
It seems to me that Steve was serving a ton of one-time customers and if he did that he would turn off the regulars that helped him get to where he was. You're right in that the technically correct solution would be to raise prices but I can empathize with the owner about how he would probably feel about that.
In this case, Stanich wanted to serve his community, and if he raised the prices, he would drive away his own community.
If I were Stanich, I would raise the prices but also offer reusable vouchers/coupons to all past customers, friends, and family so they can pay the original prices.
If I were Stanich, I would raise the prices but also offer reusable vouchers/coupons to all past customers, friends, and family so they can pay the original prices.
They could also make it reservations only, and control their price and speed.
Making a burger joint reservations-only changes the character of the service significantly. Imagine Twitter saying "We're scaling too fast for our backend to keep up, so we're going to require reservations a day in advance before you tweet so we can throttle the number of requests."
Not necessarily. I live in a heavily touristed neighborhood in Brooklyn. But I also know the managers at the restaurants I like in the neighborhood. The secret is that these managers hold some tables for walk-ins every night, and that they mostly give them to locals.
I can guarantee you there are famous NYC restaurants in my neighborhood where I can get a table even if there are lines out the door or reservations are completely full.
You just have to live in the neighborhood and actually put some effort forth to introduce yourself to staff and maybe go occasionally when you know it will be slow (like during a snowstorm or holiday). It does require a good manager/host though.
I can guarantee you there are famous NYC restaurants in my neighborhood where I can get a table even if there are lines out the door or reservations are completely full.
You just have to live in the neighborhood and actually put some effort forth to introduce yourself to staff and maybe go occasionally when you know it will be slow (like during a snowstorm or holiday). It does require a good manager/host though.
[deleted]
One of the sad things about this sort of list is that it's literally just one guy's opinion. Sure, he tried all the burgers. I'm sure all the burgers in the top 100 are good burgers, but there's probably very little separating them except some personal preference. For example, I probably wouldn't have rated this place as high because I don't care for grilled onions on burgers; I would much rather have raw onions.
The only reason anybody cares about that reviewer's opinions are because he has a platform and people are desperate to belong to something, anything.
The only reason anybody cares about that reviewer's opinions are because he has a platform and people are desperate to belong to something, anything.
His opinion about what's best probably could be argued with.
However, there are lots of definitely mediocre restaurants out there that would not make it to anyone's top ten list. So I'd have every reason to visit a restaurant on this sort of list as opposed to visiting a restaurant at random.
Personally, I'm OK with either grilled or raw onions (though I prefer raw). But there are lots of characteristics with few if any fans - soggy, overdone, cooked lettuce, etc.
The big thing is most restaurants don't have any reason to work at being good not to mention great. Most restaurants just soak up whoever happens to be in the area and has a preference for their type of food and so mediocrity not pretending to be anything else rules. Good-enough food at a good-enough price to make the owner a good-enough profit is it.
However, there are lots of definitely mediocre restaurants out there that would not make it to anyone's top ten list. So I'd have every reason to visit a restaurant on this sort of list as opposed to visiting a restaurant at random.
Personally, I'm OK with either grilled or raw onions (though I prefer raw). But there are lots of characteristics with few if any fans - soggy, overdone, cooked lettuce, etc.
The big thing is most restaurants don't have any reason to work at being good not to mention great. Most restaurants just soak up whoever happens to be in the area and has a preference for their type of food and so mediocrity not pretending to be anything else rules. Good-enough food at a good-enough price to make the owner a good-enough profit is it.
> For example, I probably wouldn't have rated this place as high because I don't care for grilled onions on burgers; I would much rather have raw onions.
Blasphemy! The one true greatest burger has both kinds.
Also, the grilled onions are between the meat and cheese so that the latter holds them in place.
Blasphemy! The one true greatest burger has both kinds.
Also, the grilled onions are between the meat and cheese so that the latter holds them in place.
> The only reason anybody cares about that reviewer's opinions are because he has a platform and people are desperate to belong to something, anything.
I disagree. It's not about "belonging to something". I agree with what the author wrote in the article. The problem is with the paradox of choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice). Decisions are paralyzing when people are faced with a myriad of choices. "Best of lists" fix this problem for many people, which is why they are so universally popular across industries. Now instead of picking from a 1000 choices, you have 10.
I disagree. It's not about "belonging to something". I agree with what the author wrote in the article. The problem is with the paradox of choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice). Decisions are paralyzing when people are faced with a myriad of choices. "Best of lists" fix this problem for many people, which is why they are so universally popular across industries. Now instead of picking from a 1000 choices, you have 10.
I think it's both. Lists do practically help us navigate the overwhelming number of options we're presented with, but there is also a large social signaling factor to them. Knowing what restaurants are popular or new or exciting is a way for someone to communicate to other people that food is an important part of who they are. But in order for that signal to work, it sometimes helps to have "canonical" definitions of which restaurants are "in" and lists and critics enable that.
What I find really sad about all this, though, is that it sacrifices the value of our own personal narrative and preferences. The idea that there is a "best" restaurant implies that my experience at it is irrelevant since "best" is apparently a customer-independent property.
That in turn implies that my own stories around which meals I loved are not worth telling to others. I think that's a terrible perspective. I'd much rather read an article about the top ten meals someone had — a narrative about them experiencing the food and not about the food itself — because it's ultimately people that matter.
What I find really sad about all this, though, is that it sacrifices the value of our own personal narrative and preferences. The idea that there is a "best" restaurant implies that my experience at it is irrelevant since "best" is apparently a customer-independent property.
That in turn implies that my own stories around which meals I loved are not worth telling to others. I think that's a terrible perspective. I'd much rather read an article about the top ten meals someone had — a narrative about them experiencing the food and not about the food itself — because it's ultimately people that matter.
Yeah, strangely enough, food and its accompanying culture is one of the most prevalent socially acceptable, encouraged biases. There's no objective, empirical stance you can take. Well, sure you can value food based on its nutritional content, but food and health science is continuously flipping back and forth on the facts and is overrun with pop-science, stirring confusing to no end. But most of all, your brain doesn't care about nutritional value once something is in your mouth.
"I don't like onions." "Oh, how can that be?" "Well, uh, they taste bad, I avoid them." "Well, I think they're great [because I like them]."
And yet these kinds of worthless opinions are given credence to no end in all levels of discourse from casual small talk to high-class cuisine.
"I don't like onions." "Oh, how can that be?" "Well, uh, they taste bad, I avoid them." "Well, I think they're great [because I like them]."
And yet these kinds of worthless opinions are given credence to no end in all levels of discourse from casual small talk to high-class cuisine.
“The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why, and Where phases. For instance, the first phase is characterized by the question 'How can we eat?' the second by the question 'Why do we eat?' and the third by the question 'Where shall we have lunch?”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
:)
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
:)
I think we're just in the age of "if you have an opinion on anything, no matter how shallow, you should share it and suggest it's self-evident, universal, and the only thing that matters."
Even sadder is that it probably depends on a lot on the day and time you go. Its not like you get the same experience every time you go to that restaurant.
Also on the person who cooked it, the ingredients they got that day, how busy they were, whether they got a call during the cooking process, what you ate that day and the day before, as well as what you drank, and even how you go there.
There are so many variables.
There are so many variables.
> I would much rather have raw onions.
Really? Yes, people are different, but this automatically invalidates you from any lists at all. Raw onions. Wow. Why not just eat an onion
Really? Yes, people are different, but this automatically invalidates you from any lists at all. Raw onions. Wow. Why not just eat an onion
There are several types of onions. Some are sweeter and can be eaten raw, reds are ofter smaller and closer to the wild type and not so accurate for that, but some people would prefer its more complex taste and are better adapted to survive in cold areas. The same variety can taste also different if cultured in winter or summer and if you use vinager or not.
Way back in the '80s, I worked in the kitchen at a little ice cream and lunch counter place called Great Midwestern. Ronald Reagan visited, and declared the blueberry ice cream "best ice cream in America" (to be fair, it was really excellent). This led to a big boom in business - and more importantly, mandatory visits by GOP presidential candidates in 1987 Iowa, with all the press circus that involved.
The owners took advantage of their good fortune and sold the business to someone else, who immediately started to "cut costs" by cheapening the ice cream. We went through two or three other owners, eventually landing on an out-of-state mega-dairy that just repackaged the cheap ice cream they sold in grocery stores - still sold as "best ice cream in America", the Ronald Reagan seal of approval.
Luckily, I could at least maintain standards in the kitchen, continuing to deliver all-vegetarian made from scratch soups daily and a nice selection of cold sandwiches made to order. But eventually, it died of neglect.
The owners took advantage of their good fortune and sold the business to someone else, who immediately started to "cut costs" by cheapening the ice cream. We went through two or three other owners, eventually landing on an out-of-state mega-dairy that just repackaged the cheap ice cream they sold in grocery stores - still sold as "best ice cream in America", the Ronald Reagan seal of approval.
Luckily, I could at least maintain standards in the kitchen, continuing to deliver all-vegetarian made from scratch soups daily and a nice selection of cold sandwiches made to order. But eventually, it died of neglect.
Which kid were you in the board cast?
You mean broadcast? Oh man, my manager wouldn't allow me out of the kitchen when the press was there, for fear of me shooting my mouth off at a candidate.
Luckily, the best takedown of a candidate was done by a customer - a PhD physics student who was a daily regular. At some point, GOP candidate Jack Kemp came in, with press in tow. He was touting his support for Reagan's "Star Wars" missile defense program. When he found an actual physics doctoral student, he asked what the student thought of it. Without blinking - and on national television - he said "The only physicists who think it will work are the ones getting paid to say it will work". It was beautiful.
Luckily, the best takedown of a candidate was done by a customer - a PhD physics student who was a daily regular. At some point, GOP candidate Jack Kemp came in, with press in tow. He was touting his support for Reagan's "Star Wars" missile defense program. When he found an actual physics doctoral student, he asked what the student thought of it. Without blinking - and on national television - he said "The only physicists who think it will work are the ones getting paid to say it will work". It was beautiful.
I'm a local. I've eaten a burger at Stanich's, way before any of this happened (apparently? I'm just now learning about it). It was fine, but calling it the best burger in America is extremely overselling it. Oregon has a law that you need to serve some kind of food if you sell hard liquor, and that's pretty much what their burgers felt like, an afterthought to fill OLCC regulations.
It was a place for old dudes to get a Budweiser and watch the basketball game, which perhaps made it one of the more authentic places in town (if that's all it takes, I know dozens of places in Minnesota you'll love), but definitely not the best place to get a burger.
If you want a much, much better burger in Portland, go to the Super Deluxe, or go to Yakuza and order theirs, or even Killer Burger, or really just about any other place. Portland is an extremely competitive food town that regularly has burger competitions (http://www.portlandburgerweek.com/), and there are dozens if not hundreds of places where you can get a burger that will be better.
I understand that the article isn't necessarily about this, but I'm having trouble walking away from what I know from direct experience is a ridiculous decision. To give a perspective on how ridiculous this is to me, if I was asked to name just Portland's 50 best burger places, I'm not sure Stanich's would be on it. It's not negligent because he unleashed the internet hordes on this place, it's negligent because the burgers there just weren't very good.
It was a place for old dudes to get a Budweiser and watch the basketball game, which perhaps made it one of the more authentic places in town (if that's all it takes, I know dozens of places in Minnesota you'll love), but definitely not the best place to get a burger.
If you want a much, much better burger in Portland, go to the Super Deluxe, or go to Yakuza and order theirs, or even Killer Burger, or really just about any other place. Portland is an extremely competitive food town that regularly has burger competitions (http://www.portlandburgerweek.com/), and there are dozens if not hundreds of places where you can get a burger that will be better.
I understand that the article isn't necessarily about this, but I'm having trouble walking away from what I know from direct experience is a ridiculous decision. To give a perspective on how ridiculous this is to me, if I was asked to name just Portland's 50 best burger places, I'm not sure Stanich's would be on it. It's not negligent because he unleashed the internet hordes on this place, it's negligent because the burgers there just weren't very good.
"Too much love will kill you, just as sure as none."
It's an interesting reflection on the effect of the internet hordes that can be called up by a careless article or tweet. A similar thing happens to restaurants that receive the Michelin stars and to single individuals that end up being in more popular demand than can be sustained (this happens to some consultants). Not all of the typical defenses are available all the time, such as raising your prices or other ways of limiting the influx. Besides that not being fair to your original customers.
Hard problem, the internet mob is like a bunch of locusts, they devour that which they visit and leave it devastated.
It's an interesting reflection on the effect of the internet hordes that can be called up by a careless article or tweet. A similar thing happens to restaurants that receive the Michelin stars and to single individuals that end up being in more popular demand than can be sustained (this happens to some consultants). Not all of the typical defenses are available all the time, such as raising your prices or other ways of limiting the influx. Besides that not being fair to your original customers.
Hard problem, the internet mob is like a bunch of locusts, they devour that which they visit and leave it devastated.
> they devour that which they visit and leave it devastated.
Not disagreeing but the "they" is "us". You're not in a traffic jam, you are the traffic jam.
Not disagreeing but the "they" is "us". You're not in a traffic jam, you are the traffic jam.
Agree. Whilst I think that people, or rather popularity, ruins everything, and whilst I'm frustrated that rather explore and discover things for themselves people would rather be told what's good and descend in a mob, I have to admit that I'm part of the problem: sometimes it's just easier.
You don’t truly mean popularity literally ruins everything, correct? There are all kinds of things that are better because they’re popular, or at least could not have been as great without their popularity. Smart phones, for instance: if they didn’t get really popular, and there was not as much competition in the hardware and app space, the apps and hardware would not have gotten so much better so quickly.
Other ones off the top of my head: air travel (popularity has led to fairly low prices, even if the experience has suffered for those looking for bargain basement prices), computers, coffee, beer.
Other ones off the top of my head: air travel (popularity has led to fairly low prices, even if the experience has suffered for those looking for bargain basement prices), computers, coffee, beer.
It's even affecting non-business locations now as well, as a result of geotagging and instagram.
What happens when nature goes viral - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itjc14Fm-gs
What happens when nature goes viral - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itjc14Fm-gs
> Besides that not being fair to your original customers.
Speaking of not fair, I'm imagining a scenario where prices fluctuate by the hour or by the customer. Maybe it's not unfair, but just different.
Speaking of not fair, I'm imagining a scenario where prices fluctuate by the hour or by the customer. Maybe it's not unfair, but just different.
Like, say...Uber?
Dynamic pricing is the right answer for this, but people don't like it and it's hard to execute technically.
Dynamic pricing is the right answer for this, but people don't like it and it's hard to execute technically.
Enjoyed the article. This reminds me a lot of what Groupon used to do to restaurants in the early days. They would just get slammed by hundreds of crabby people looking to one and done them for a half priced meal. Obviously as Groupon became more ubiquitous this lessened, but I do vividly remember going to a hot dog and burger place and finding the two owner-operators absolutely miserable as a line of 20 people formed out their door.
Back to the article: seems this is why Shake Shack succeeded and prospered with one store being inundated by customers. I'm sure this place has a lot of smart money wanting to use their name and recipe. Maybe not such a bad outcome?
Back to the article: seems this is why Shake Shack succeeded and prospered with one store being inundated by customers. I'm sure this place has a lot of smart money wanting to use their name and recipe. Maybe not such a bad outcome?
As another child comment mentions, Shake Shack was designed in a lab to be a franchise monster. The founder of Shake Shack is Danny Meyer, who is quite possibly America's most celebrated restaurateur and the CEO of Union Square Hospitality Group. By the time Shake Shack opened, Meyer had been running restaurants for over 30 years.
The hot dog cart in Madison Park that originated Shake Shack was stocked by the kitchen of Eleven Madison Park (then a Meyer owned restaurant) which sits next to the park, has three Michelin stars and in 2017 was #1 on the World's 50 Best Restaurant's list.
The hot dog cart in Madison Park that originated Shake Shack was stocked by the kitchen of Eleven Madison Park (then a Meyer owned restaurant) which sits next to the park, has three Michelin stars and in 2017 was #1 on the World's 50 Best Restaurant's list.
Shake Shack began as a hot dog stand, but a hot dog stand created for a park being developed by a successful NYC restaurateur who owned a hospitality management company. If you're the sole developer of a new downtown park, and you own the only hotdog stand in that park, and you have lots of resources, it's going to be a success. When later there's the opportunity to develop the park further, you may pony up the cash to build a building to sell even more food. And later, when you see how successful it is, and you see the opportunity to branch out, you can do that, too.
Some restaurants become popular because people with money are in the right place at the right time, and not because it was an old-school authentic eatery discovered by a food writer and put on a top-foods-list.
Some restaurants become popular because people with money are in the right place at the right time, and not because it was an old-school authentic eatery discovered by a food writer and put on a top-foods-list.
Supply side economics dominates. There is no such thing as authentic demand.
Isn't the lesson here rather that monopolies, good management, and quality products are good for business?
Shake Shack is more about hyping just-ok products. There are better (and cheaper) burgers to be had without the megadosing of salt to compensate for a mediocre blend. They keep the seats filled because they worked the hype machine and the tourists flock there.
> I'm sure this place has a lot of smart money wanting to use their name and recipe. Maybe not such a bad outcome?
You have to understand and emphasize with someone's goals for starting and running a business. It's not always money and notoriety. Sometimes it's just that someone wants to do a certain thing with their waking hours.
You have to understand and emphasize with someone's goals for starting and running a business. It's not always money and notoriety. Sometimes it's just that someone wants to do a certain thing with their waking hours.
Totally agree. More just meant at this point he doesn't have that option as easily, so maybe he sells out and then starts something small again. I know it's probably not too feasible given the emotional attachment he has to the business, just can't imagine some operator coming in there without ruining the charm of the place, which would be the main reason to keep things the same.
This reminds me of Anthony Bourdain's visit to Venice and a local restaurant that only accepted being filmed if he didn't tell anyone the name or location of the place. It can definitely kill the business.
Off-topic question: how does a submission gets front page with just 3 points?
Off-topic question: how does a submission gets front page with just 3 points?
He did this quite often!
"But on the other hand, that's kind of a destructive process because if I name the place - and I don't always when it's a place like that - I've changed it. The next time I go back, there's tourists. There's people who've seen it on the show. And then I might hear from the same person from that neighborhood say, you ruined my favorite bar, (laughter) you know? All the regular customers have run away and it's filled with, you know, tourists in ugly T-shirts and flip-flops. There are times that I have looked at the camera and said, look, I'm just not going to tell you where this place is. I don't want to change it. It should stay like this forever. I do do that now and again."
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/20/558792269/anthony-bourdain-on...
"But on the other hand, that's kind of a destructive process because if I name the place - and I don't always when it's a place like that - I've changed it. The next time I go back, there's tourists. There's people who've seen it on the show. And then I might hear from the same person from that neighborhood say, you ruined my favorite bar, (laughter) you know? All the regular customers have run away and it's filled with, you know, tourists in ugly T-shirts and flip-flops. There are times that I have looked at the camera and said, look, I'm just not going to tell you where this place is. I don't want to change it. It should stay like this forever. I do do that now and again."
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/20/558792269/anthony-bourdain-on...
That can happen when the votes all occur in short succession.
Fascinating. Are you certain of this or is this conjecture? Feels like this could be exploited if true.
Maybe it's more sophisticated like votes must be from people with high karma points?
Maybe it's more sophisticated like votes must be from people with high karma points?
It can definitely be gamed. I always used to notice links to the nautilus science site would instantly get 6 or so upvotes. While pondering this was when I realised they were YC backed, and stopped wondering if they'd get called out on it....
And it won't last very long at all unless someone else boosts it.
There is a local barbershop I have been going to for the past 4 years or so. Recently, they wanted to increase some business, so they were asking customers to leave a review. Loving the place and wanting to give back, I left a good review on Google. Fast forward a few weeks, and received emails from google saying my review has been viewed 100s of times. I used to be able to call and get an appointment the same day, or same afternoon even, but now it's difficult to be seen the same day. It's a bit of a bummer, and I'm not really sure how to solve it. It hurt me as a long time customer, but the shop is doing a ton more business now. Now I'm hesitant to do this for any other business I enjoy, even knowing this is a selfish feeling.
That happened to me. Now I just scheduled my next appointment when I finish the current appointment. Every 5 weeks. And you get the same barber every time which is nice - you don't need to tell them what cut you want every single time. And it is good for the business because the have a somewhat predictable revenue source.
This problem exists with vacation rentals. Leaving a great review leads its to being fully booked next year, especially for a seasonal rental.
Ask to be put ahead of line for writing the review?
I'd have no shame about asking for some free haircuts as well. Your review is probably responsible for increasing their business 1.3-1.5x
I'd have no shame about asking for some free haircuts as well. Your review is probably responsible for increasing their business 1.3-1.5x
Yep exactly or "this" as they say. The Market doesn't have to respond so slowly that prices stay the same even though demand went up. It doesn't have to charge a faithful customer more than an unfaithful one either.
It would be funny, although not culturally normal, to see companies start to review customers.
It would be funny, although not culturally normal, to see companies start to review customers.
Your barber prefers reservations.
This reminds me of the first thing everyone asks when you tell them you just got back from Maui: "Did you go see the sunrise on Haleakalā?"
And, no I have not, because I don't want to wake up at 5:00am while on vacation and drive to a crowded parking lot to watch the sunrise in the cold with 80-100 strangers.
Why is it that we all have to have the same experiences?
And, no I have not, because I don't want to wake up at 5:00am while on vacation and drive to a crowded parking lot to watch the sunrise in the cold with 80-100 strangers.
Why is it that we all have to have the same experiences?
This coupled with the articles I've seen on people on vacation all hoarding together to get the perfect picture of $insertMonumentOrSkylineHere. I remember one in particular that showed this gorgeous picture then showed what was behind the photographer and it was mob of people all taking the same picture. It honestly makes me sick. Those are the people that do thing to say they did them rather than for the experience IMHO.
If your life looks perfect on FB/Insta/Snap I just assume you are empty inside. Well "produce" our lives a little but some people go so far out of their way I just don't understand how people can follow that shit and not see how vapid/fake/BS it all is. Like serious this [0] fuck right off. I in no way endorse or support the backlash she got but it just all seems so stupid and wasteful to me.
[0] https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/blogge...
If your life looks perfect on FB/Insta/Snap I just assume you are empty inside. Well "produce" our lives a little but some people go so far out of their way I just don't understand how people can follow that shit and not see how vapid/fake/BS it all is. Like serious this [0] fuck right off. I in no way endorse or support the backlash she got but it just all seems so stupid and wasteful to me.
[0] https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/blogge...
Yes. Similar to my child, who's interested in the process of the "art" she's scribbling rather than the result, and forgets about it soon after. But more self-conscious, as the process of taking common photos is a social act.
What if the mechanics of camera/social photo apps rewarded people for taking original photos?
https://www.wired.com/2015/09/camera-wont-let-take-photo-eve...
What if the mechanics of camera/social photo apps rewarded people for taking original photos?
https://www.wired.com/2015/09/camera-wont-let-take-photo-eve...
[deleted]
If you have a week there, and it's on the list of things to do, why wouldn't you go do it? Are you going to go all the way out there and not do the things? Then you'd be missing out!
We all want a magical experience in a drive-thru window, and we fear missing out. If you live on the east coast, you could go to the Caribbean cheaper and quicker, but it's not Hawaii!. The Caribbean is beautiful, but Hawaii is magical! At least, that's what we're told by the travel agencies. Then you arrive and realize it's basically the Caribbean with a Wal-Mart and better hiking (and more rain)
We all want a magical experience in a drive-thru window, and we fear missing out. If you live on the east coast, you could go to the Caribbean cheaper and quicker, but it's not Hawaii!. The Caribbean is beautiful, but Hawaii is magical! At least, that's what we're told by the travel agencies. Then you arrive and realize it's basically the Caribbean with a Wal-Mart and better hiking (and more rain)
> If you have a week there, and it's on the list of things to do, why wouldn't you go do it?
Maybe one day. I guess I'd rather pack in as much surfing as I can.
I don't feel I've missed out on the Haleakalā sunrise thing, I just think it's funny that that is always the first thing people ask.
Some of them seem to almost discount my trip when they found out I didn't go.
Maybe one day. I guess I'd rather pack in as much surfing as I can.
I don't feel I've missed out on the Haleakalā sunrise thing, I just think it's funny that that is always the first thing people ask.
Some of them seem to almost discount my trip when they found out I didn't go.
Due to the weather, you can miss out even if you had gone.
I went to Haleakalā after being recommended to go after a visit to the big island. The early morning that I went via a local outfitter, it was raining cats and dogs, visibility nada, so it was wet and uncomfortable. I had opted for the ride down the mountain on bikes option which seemed adventurous at the time. Riding down fearfully slick roads and switchbacks with limited visibility and having the bike ride leaders joke about having to pull guests out of ravines with ropes did not help. But that was my personal Haleakalā experience.
I went to Haleakalā after being recommended to go after a visit to the big island. The early morning that I went via a local outfitter, it was raining cats and dogs, visibility nada, so it was wet and uncomfortable. I had opted for the ride down the mountain on bikes option which seemed adventurous at the time. Riding down fearfully slick roads and switchbacks with limited visibility and having the bike ride leaders joke about having to pull guests out of ravines with ropes did not help. But that was my personal Haleakalā experience.
Vox Media just published a video about the negative impact of Instagram and photo geo-tagging on nature sightseeing. The "Leave No Trace" organization now recommends that people not geo-tag their nature photos so as to limit the number of visitors to remote or sensitive nature areas.
"What happens when nature goes viral?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itjc14Fm-gs
"What happens when nature goes viral?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itjc14Fm-gs
Wow, I planned on only skimming the article because I figured it was clickbait... Loved every minute of this piece.
Same! I read the whole thing and I was genuinely sad by the end of it. Was not what I expected for a friday, but dam. It was a really good read!
Who waits for 5 hours to get a hamburger? That's just silly. Either limit the hours in which burgers are served or hand out tickets allowing the holder to buy up to, say 4, burgers. The total amount served would be based on what the staff can reasonably prepare over a certain amount of time without going crazy. If you don't get a ticket, sorry, come back tomorrow. If you don't want burgers, you get to skip the burger line for a seat at the table where you may order anything else off the menu, just no burgers. After awhile, the hassle will cause people to stop trying and the crowds would be reduced to a sane number.
Same people who wait all night for a product launch.
Or all day to get into a convention panel.
Or all afternoon to get into a concert.
People get unreasonably obsessive about the things they love. It is known.
Or all day to get into a convention panel.
Or all afternoon to get into a concert.
People get unreasonably obsessive about the things they love. It is known.
At the Comic Con in San Jose earlier this year, the lines for Stan Lee's autograph were insane. Hours backed up at the dedicated empty table starting at 9am 'cause he'll be there at 2pm [or whatever].
I mean, if you are there with friends, you grab a beer, sit around and talk.
Or as the article says, someone yelled out a silly time to make people go away.
Or as the article says, someone yelled out a silly time to make people go away.
Reminds me of a Nathan For You episode that lampoons the idea of ranking something as subjective as a burger.
Nathan convinces the owner of a burger joint in LA to go on a popular local radio station and promise that he has the best burger in LA, and offer $100 to anyone who eats there and disagrees. The comedy in this is apparent to pretty much anyone, but people will still refer to different restaurants as 'the best'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-wUs-fofs
Nathan convinces the owner of a burger joint in LA to go on a popular local radio station and promise that he has the best burger in LA, and offer $100 to anyone who eats there and disagrees. The comedy in this is apparent to pretty much anyone, but people will still refer to different restaurants as 'the best'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-wUs-fofs
My mood has more effect on the pleasure I get from many things than their intrinsic nature. The first beer on holiday in a new country is the best beer you've ever tasted. A meal eaten in silence when you've been looking forward to it tastes divine.
Hell - my own narcissism even overrides most things. My own cooking is often my favourite thing in the world.
And on the other side of things - high expectations or rote habit often kill pleasures for me. If I try too hard to enjoy something it blows away like dust.
Hell - my own narcissism even overrides most things. My own cooking is often my favourite thing in the world.
And on the other side of things - high expectations or rote habit often kill pleasures for me. If I try too hard to enjoy something it blows away like dust.
Context is king. Back when I was a consultant and flew all over the place a lot, there were more than a few times I landed at O'Hare sometime after midnight, got off the plane starving, and immediately beat it to the "open 24 hours" McDonalds in the food court and had a box of Chicken McNuggets that were, at that moment, the best meal I could dream of. I mean, who knew that damn mcnuggets could be absolutely heavenly under the right circumstances...
> The first beer on holiday in a new country is the best beer you've ever tasted.
I walked 7 miles home from work through 6 inches of slush last night. Right after that came the best beer I've ever tasted.
I walked 7 miles home from work through 6 inches of slush last night. Right after that came the best beer I've ever tasted.
They need to introduce a 'Local VIP' card. Basically if you are regular you get a card; if you aren't a regular they recognized and you are a semi-regular local, you show your drivers license and they can decide if you warrant a local VIP card.
If this doesn't solve it, then raise the price. Still too many people, and long waits - what a great problem - get a loan and open a second location or expand the first.
If this doesn't solve it, then raise the price. Still too many people, and long waits - what a great problem - get a loan and open a second location or expand the first.
People are lemmings.
Franklin's BBQ in Austin has hours long lines. It's very good brisket.
The hill country of Texas is FILLED with equally good brisket joints that don't have lines.
People who wait in line for 4 hours won't admit this. Cognitive dissonance kicks in, and Franklin's is unique and better than everyone else in their minds. Try telling a person that their Bose headphones are overpriced and overrated, and you will see this in action.
Lists are indeed stupid, but only because people aren't rational decision makers.
Franklin's BBQ in Austin has hours long lines. It's very good brisket.
The hill country of Texas is FILLED with equally good brisket joints that don't have lines.
People who wait in line for 4 hours won't admit this. Cognitive dissonance kicks in, and Franklin's is unique and better than everyone else in their minds. Try telling a person that their Bose headphones are overpriced and overrated, and you will see this in action.
Lists are indeed stupid, but only because people aren't rational decision makers.
Just to add a little subtlety to your comment, Franklin (no s) BBQ revolutionized Texas BBQ when it first opened. Nowadays, there are several places that can go head to head with it (Micklethwaite and La Barbeque for example), but at the time, there was nothing even close.
Many of those famous places in the hills or even, gasp, Lockhart, really weren't that good once we had Franklin BBQ. I've noticed a lot of these old-school places have had to up their game in recent years and are now competitive again.
That said, waiting in line at Franklin is sort of an event of itself. Most people bring coolers of beer and turn it into a tailgate-like atmosphere. You're right though, I haven't waited in the line for years because I can get something similar much easier.
I'm with you 100% on the Bose headphones comment though. Those things are a ripoff.
Many of those famous places in the hills or even, gasp, Lockhart, really weren't that good once we had Franklin BBQ. I've noticed a lot of these old-school places have had to up their game in recent years and are now competitive again.
That said, waiting in line at Franklin is sort of an event of itself. Most people bring coolers of beer and turn it into a tailgate-like atmosphere. You're right though, I haven't waited in the line for years because I can get something similar much easier.
I'm with you 100% on the Bose headphones comment though. Those things are a ripoff.
[deleted]
Yes. My Bose headphones are absolutely overrated and overpriced. They're 2-3x as expensive for being maybe 10%-20% better than the competition.
But they're still 10% better. They're the best consumer grade noise canceling headphones available. None of the offerings from Sennheiser or the like have both a comparable comfort and the same or better noise canceling. So, for me, there just isn't anything else that solves the problem of having to do high-concentration work in an open office for hours at a time.
But they're still 10% better. They're the best consumer grade noise canceling headphones available. None of the offerings from Sennheiser or the like have both a comparable comfort and the same or better noise canceling. So, for me, there just isn't anything else that solves the problem of having to do high-concentration work in an open office for hours at a time.
I agree. I'm still an owner & fan of the Bose Quiet Comfort 35 II, but also have the latest Sony WH-1000XM3 (and XM2). I think the Sony's have better noise cancelling, enough that I pick them up daily. I typically work with them on, no music. The QC 35 travels better, being slightly less bulky.
For the above comments about Bose in general, it's untrue for this specific use case. Before the Sony model was released there wasn't a better option out there.
For the above comments about Bose in general, it's untrue for this specific use case. Before the Sony model was released there wasn't a better option out there.
I've been to Sukiyabashi Jiro, in Tokyo, four times. The Ginza location twice and the Roppongi Hills location twice. Lunch and dinner service at both locations. These are Michelin 3 and 2 star restaurants, respectively, and it is actually quite challenging to get in to the Ginza location as a foreigner, especially the dinner service. I don't mean to say anything to discredit Jiro or his sons or their apprentices. They are absolutely amazing chefs of the highest quality and they are serving some of the highest quality sushi you can get. It is the best sushi that most people could ever hope to have and the food service itself is worth the experience. But... This place was made famous by Anthony Bourdain and then a documentary.
All of that said, I've personally had sushi that is comparable in quality out in the Japanese coastal countryside at an essentially random michi-no-eki. It's also significantly cheaper and they have pieces of sushi that you won't find in the larger cities that are unique to the region or town.
All of that said, I've personally had sushi that is comparable in quality out in the Japanese coastal countryside at an essentially random michi-no-eki. It's also significantly cheaper and they have pieces of sushi that you won't find in the larger cities that are unique to the region or town.
If it's just as good for cheaper, then why have you been 4 times? It doesn't sound like it's easier.
> If it's just as good for cheaper, then why have you been 4 times?
Because the lunch and dinner services are different. Because we later vacationed in Japan with a couple that we are friends with and they wanted to go and were more comfortable going with us (both of these places are an intense experience, to put it mildly, though one is a more comfortable atmosphere than the other). Because of that intense experience and the atmosphere that it provides.
Because it's more difficult still to comfortably navigate those smaller towns and regions, outside of Tokyo or Osaka or Kyoto, etc..., without any sort of handle on the language. That alone implies a few things. You or someone you're traveling with knows the language well enough to navigate those smaller towns and regions and that it's very likely not your first or even second trip to the country.
We didn't come to understand that sushi in a place like Shimoda could be better than what you'd find at a Michelin rated sushi restaurant until we were able to find ourselves in Shimoda having that sushi and we weren't comfortable even going to a place like Shimoda until our third trip to Japan.
edit/ Because my wife and I are just as vulnerable as everyone else that is being talked about here for falling prey to "top 10 lists" and the like.
Because the lunch and dinner services are different. Because we later vacationed in Japan with a couple that we are friends with and they wanted to go and were more comfortable going with us (both of these places are an intense experience, to put it mildly, though one is a more comfortable atmosphere than the other). Because of that intense experience and the atmosphere that it provides.
Because it's more difficult still to comfortably navigate those smaller towns and regions, outside of Tokyo or Osaka or Kyoto, etc..., without any sort of handle on the language. That alone implies a few things. You or someone you're traveling with knows the language well enough to navigate those smaller towns and regions and that it's very likely not your first or even second trip to the country.
We didn't come to understand that sushi in a place like Shimoda could be better than what you'd find at a Michelin rated sushi restaurant until we were able to find ourselves in Shimoda having that sushi and we weren't comfortable even going to a place like Shimoda until our third trip to Japan.
edit/ Because my wife and I are just as vulnerable as everyone else that is being talked about here for falling prey to "top 10 lists" and the like.
I think the internet caused a lot of this. It's easier for everyone to herd to a SINGLE point. I don't remember this sort of line size discrepancy being nearly so common twenty years ago.
The most confusing thing about the line at Franklin's is you can just order it to go and skip the line entirely. Granted, you have to plan ahead a bit, but who's deciding at the spur of the moment to go eat lunch at Franklin's anyway?
I believe there is such a thing as "queuing culture."
I don't know if it's driven by Disney resorts and cruises, but it seems as if people like standing in line for some reason.
I don't know if it's driven by Disney resorts and cruises, but it seems as if people like standing in line for some reason.
It turns things into an event. Which is most of what happened at Franklin.
yep, I have a friend who went and stood in line to buy the new apple phone because it was "part of the experience". whatever makes people happy, I suppose.
You've never been to England.
See also Shake Shack..
It's like how a night club with no line is stupid, lame, and not worth going to, but one with a long line is forbidden fruit and so you must line up too.
So many clubs make people line up for no reason other than to have a line.
So many clubs make people line up for no reason other than to have a line.
> The hill country of Texas is FILLED with equally good brisket joints that don't have lines.
Yep. Even The Salt Lick at AUS is decent.
For those coming in from out of state, take a look at Texas Monthly's BBQ section to get some ideas: https://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq-home/
Yep. Even The Salt Lick at AUS is decent.
For those coming in from out of state, take a look at Texas Monthly's BBQ section to get some ideas: https://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq-home/
That's because we are not satisfied unless we feel we have the best. Second best just doesn't cut it, and making it measurable is a great way to focus all the attention on the #1 spot. Same with music rankings, movies, books and so on. It's what powers best sellers: best sellers will sell more because they are best sellers!
I live in Austin and I've made the exact same point to people before.
Q: Which BBQ place should I go to in Austin?
A: Most are good. I've even enjoyed the brisket served at the UT dining halls. (This is blasphemy to some.) You probably would do well to pick any well established BBQ place without a line.
Q: Which BBQ place should I go to in Austin?
A: Most are good. I've even enjoyed the brisket served at the UT dining halls. (This is blasphemy to some.) You probably would do well to pick any well established BBQ place without a line.
I've been to a few Rudy's before, most recently in New Mexico.
I'm not sure how much better Franklin's would be, but I'm not sure I would care all that much either.
I'm not sure how much better Franklin's would be, but I'm not sure I would care all that much either.
If Franklin's is a 10 (let's say), Rudy's is a solid 8.
Agreed. For me, most restaurants fall into good/so-so/not good buckets, so I dislike ranking them and selecting a best, however folks love top 10 lists.
Holy crap, Salt Lick BBQ was a let down when I was in Austin.
We would have been better served going anywhere else, and will be sure to do so the next time I'm down there!
We would have been better served going anywhere else, and will be sure to do so the next time I'm down there!
[deleted]
I grew up in Austin and I honestly never found the OG Salt Like to be that great...
Franklins is good - but I sure as hell wouldn't wait hours in line for their brisket...
Franklins is good - but I sure as hell wouldn't wait hours in line for their brisket...
[deleted]
do you know of a pair of better/cheaper over the ear noise cancelling headphones?
The new noise-cancelling champion appears to be Sony's WH1000XM3, which retains the same eye-watering $350 pricetag as the QC35s.
https://www.amazon.com/Howard-Leight-Honeywell-Hi-Visibility...
They're not even active noise cancelling. They work just as well with no battery. They're not "dead silent" but I can be making no noise and you have to yell to get my attention.
As an added bonus they're reflective, not that that in any way makes up for the massive reduction in situational awareness you are causing by purposefully handicapping your hearing ability while in/around traffic.
Edit: Did you edit your comment or was it someone else who mentioned wanting to listen to audiobooks while walking down the street?
They're not even active noise cancelling. They work just as well with no battery. They're not "dead silent" but I can be making no noise and you have to yell to get my attention.
As an added bonus they're reflective, not that that in any way makes up for the massive reduction in situational awareness you are causing by purposefully handicapping your hearing ability while in/around traffic.
Edit: Did you edit your comment or was it someone else who mentioned wanting to listen to audiobooks while walking down the street?
No. I know of dozen better solutions for people who want to listen to music in high-noise environments, starting with the cheap-and-good (Mee M6Pro, $50, plus ear-safety isolators, $10) and ranging through moderately priced and good (Sennheiser HD280Pro, $100, Beyerdynamic DT770, $150) and going on up in price but not necessarily isolation.
I’ve been very happy with the Monoprice “SonicSolace” ones. Haven’t done a side-by-side comparison, but I’ve found them perfectly good for airplane use, and they’re definitely cheaper.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16219
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=16219
I bought the Cowin E7's from Amazon for $60. I've tested them and the noise-cancelling is every bit as good. The audio sounds just as good too, but I don't pretend to be an audiophile and the noise-cancelling is what is important to me.
I believe Sony WH-H900N is both better and cheaper. Sony and bose are the only ones (that I have heard) that does noise cancellation that is worth it.
I mean, you are a local, right? You know all those places. If I am in town for a few days for work, WTF am I going to do? Go to the one place someone told me about or I saw on a list? Of course.
Right I've seen hipsters in the Bay Area lined up for hours just to eat ramen noodles! What's wrong with these people? Even great noodles aren't much better than average noodles. I really can't understand it.
Well, have you had great noodles?
A crash course on Japanese culture: kodawari. It's a singular, artisanal obsession with making a single thing perfect. In Japan, there are restaurants dedicated to making only one thing, only yakitori or tempura or soba or a myriad other things or, of course, ramen.
With such dedication, you elevate such trivial things, even such an extremely unremarkable thing like ramen, into a high art, and you expose it as what is is, a world full of subtleties. Yes, there are people just doing business, but by and large the field is advanced by people who care, and there is no top on this. SF has one, maybe two ramen-ya that even remotely come close.
You exhaustively experiment, hacker-like, with the parameters of every possible thing you care about, the ratios of the bones and aromatics and fushi and fat that go into broth, the proportions of seasonings that go into the tare sauce that has had entire books written about them, the alkalinity and hydration and timing of the noodles, the little details and seasoning on top of the toppings. It is precisely through the person-centuries of experimentation that we find interesting combinations that we realized we could do interesting things in this thing that was basically just a bowl of pork soup with some soy sauce and some springy noodles. All this, and it's still just ten bucks a bowl.
As far as I know, no other culture even comes remotely close to this kind of kodawari on such a large scale.
It feels ridiculously dismissive to just ignore the achievements of an entire culture like that.
(And for the record, it's not like I think there isn't any overrated ramen. I waited collectively something like two hours for the Michelin-starred Tsuta, and on net it impressed me less than some much more humble ramen-ya. All I'm saying is that the search space is both wide and deep, and it feels weird to just dismiss it like that.)
A crash course on Japanese culture: kodawari. It's a singular, artisanal obsession with making a single thing perfect. In Japan, there are restaurants dedicated to making only one thing, only yakitori or tempura or soba or a myriad other things or, of course, ramen.
With such dedication, you elevate such trivial things, even such an extremely unremarkable thing like ramen, into a high art, and you expose it as what is is, a world full of subtleties. Yes, there are people just doing business, but by and large the field is advanced by people who care, and there is no top on this. SF has one, maybe two ramen-ya that even remotely come close.
You exhaustively experiment, hacker-like, with the parameters of every possible thing you care about, the ratios of the bones and aromatics and fushi and fat that go into broth, the proportions of seasonings that go into the tare sauce that has had entire books written about them, the alkalinity and hydration and timing of the noodles, the little details and seasoning on top of the toppings. It is precisely through the person-centuries of experimentation that we find interesting combinations that we realized we could do interesting things in this thing that was basically just a bowl of pork soup with some soy sauce and some springy noodles. All this, and it's still just ten bucks a bowl.
As far as I know, no other culture even comes remotely close to this kind of kodawari on such a large scale.
It feels ridiculously dismissive to just ignore the achievements of an entire culture like that.
(And for the record, it's not like I think there isn't any overrated ramen. I waited collectively something like two hours for the Michelin-starred Tsuta, and on net it impressed me less than some much more humble ramen-ya. All I'm saying is that the search space is both wide and deep, and it feels weird to just dismiss it like that.)
Thanks for bringing up _kodawari_.
I assume you have seen Tampopo. In case you have not and for others, it is a VHS-era film comedy about two truck drivers who help a struggling roadside chef learn how to really make noodles.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampopo
I assume you have seen Tampopo. In case you have not and for others, it is a VHS-era film comedy about two truck drivers who help a struggling roadside chef learn how to really make noodles.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampopo
I'm not dismissive of Japanese culture, I'm dismissive of hipsters.
I just hope you understand that you're not just doing that.
> Even great noodles aren't much better than average noodles. I really can't understand it.
I have no reason to be mad at this, I have literally no reason to be emotionally connected to this, but... it still disappoints me a little bit on the inside to read this.
> Even great noodles aren't much better than average noodles. I really can't understand it.
I have no reason to be mad at this, I have literally no reason to be emotionally connected to this, but... it still disappoints me a little bit on the inside to read this.
Counterpoint: there is no objectively perfect opinion (except this one :D).
When it comes to anything, there will always be people who care at 100%, and people who care at 0%, and when it comes to art or cuisine or web design best practices there's going to be disagreements on it.
And that's fine. It's not dismissive in a morally bad way. It's just food (full disclosure: I was a chef for over 10 years, I have a LOT of opinions on anything related to it). Some guy on the internet saying that the greatest ramen in the world isn't a substantial improvement over the most average ramen in the world doesn't ruin anything. It's just like, your opinion man.
When it comes to anything, there will always be people who care at 100%, and people who care at 0%, and when it comes to art or cuisine or web design best practices there's going to be disagreements on it.
And that's fine. It's not dismissive in a morally bad way. It's just food (full disclosure: I was a chef for over 10 years, I have a LOT of opinions on anything related to it). Some guy on the internet saying that the greatest ramen in the world isn't a substantial improvement over the most average ramen in the world doesn't ruin anything. It's just like, your opinion man.
That's fair; I think I'm slightly more-pissed-than-usual about this just because it's very easy to dismissive of ramen, especially in North America, because all people remember are those deep-fried dehydrated brick fixtures of every college dorm. It is precisely that it doesn't look like traditional fine dining, or even New American cuisine, that I think a lot of people think it's nothing worth looking at. It's really, really easy to say "this is what it is to me, how could you ever do anything interesting with it?"
I just kind of wish more people (including me) would try more things, you know? :P
(I guess I'm channeling my inner David Chang right now.)
I just kind of wish more people (including me) would try more things, you know? :P
(I guess I'm channeling my inner David Chang right now.)
Oh GOD, you want to get me pissed bring up that cry baby Chang. I could rant. But I won't.
Listen, I get it. I spend 8 hours every few months boiling off a massive pot of bones and feet to make my own ramen broth to store in my freezer. I get that it's easy to dismiss it soup and noodles as just "some soup and noodles".
Food is usually about what you know and are familiar with. It's about comfort for most people, but other people are about finding novel or interesting experiences.
Listen, I get it. I spend 8 hours every few months boiling off a massive pot of bones and feet to make my own ramen broth to store in my freezer. I get that it's easy to dismiss it soup and noodles as just "some soup and noodles".
Food is usually about what you know and are familiar with. It's about comfort for most people, but other people are about finding novel or interesting experiences.
There's definitely an element of performativity in food that strikes me every time I see cooking shows.
It can be great food, but you're going to poop it out the same as anything else. So what are you paying for, when you get above a minimum bar of nutrition, sanitation, and taste? An experience. Fashion. Hospitality. With high end ingredients and techniques, scarcity.
And I can see the appeal of chasing after "the best" on both ends. Something that is not just a great experience once, but great on every plate, every service. It's not unlike other aesthetic and cultural pursuits in that at the higher end it becomes about the coloration that you prefer, and most objective measures fall apart.
But then most people aren't even able to describe what they want aesthetically, so a ranking substitutes. And when it's a ranking of something familiar and popular like burgers or noodle soups, it's simultaneously more interesting(more people have comparable experiences) and easier to dismiss(there are many great options).
Earlier this year I visited Tokyo and decided to find "the best burger" (according to some guide) and the place I ultimately visited was, indeed, quite good by any standard, and it wasn't busy or unusually expensive, even. Was it the best? I have absolutely no idea. But I get to tell a story about visiting "the best" regardless.
It can be great food, but you're going to poop it out the same as anything else. So what are you paying for, when you get above a minimum bar of nutrition, sanitation, and taste? An experience. Fashion. Hospitality. With high end ingredients and techniques, scarcity.
And I can see the appeal of chasing after "the best" on both ends. Something that is not just a great experience once, but great on every plate, every service. It's not unlike other aesthetic and cultural pursuits in that at the higher end it becomes about the coloration that you prefer, and most objective measures fall apart.
But then most people aren't even able to describe what they want aesthetically, so a ranking substitutes. And when it's a ranking of something familiar and popular like burgers or noodle soups, it's simultaneously more interesting(more people have comparable experiences) and easier to dismiss(there are many great options).
Earlier this year I visited Tokyo and decided to find "the best burger" (according to some guide) and the place I ultimately visited was, indeed, quite good by any standard, and it wasn't busy or unusually expensive, even. Was it the best? I have absolutely no idea. But I get to tell a story about visiting "the best" regardless.
I don't really particularly like David Chang, but one thing that I do identify a lot with is that there is a lot of art and expertise in Asian cuisines that have been neglected in the west, precisely because it has been dismissed as simple, as lower class, as cheap.
shrug Has it? I can't speak for "the west" but I live in New Jersey. We have large Asian populations (half of my friends in high school were some sort of East asian) including some towns with the largest concentrations of Indians outside India.
There's plenty of non-asians eating at the most "authentic" places, but when I go into some of them I notice that the populations are still more skewed towards the people of that make up that culture. Why? Because most people tend to gravitate towards food they're familiar with. No matter how much I tell someone that a beef tendon and noodle soup is going to be good, they're going to be hesitant because it's foreign and they're unfamiliar with the ingredients. That's fine. It's ultimately just food, and people don't have to eat anything they don't want to.
To me, David Chang and his constant hemming and hawing about how nobody respects Korean food (specifically Korean food, although he sometimes tries to throw a blanket over the whole of Asian food although he knows he's being disingenuous and his whole tone changes when he does that) is just so annoying. I'm sorry that Koreans haven't done as well marketing their cuisines as Indians, Chinese and Japanese restaurants have. But it's changing. In the mid-90's sushi was still considered exotic and interesting. Now you can buy it at a gas station. He just seems very impatient and indignant that "the masses" take a long time to change what they consider to be part of normal American Cuisine, and he should know better.
TL;dr- getting upset someone doesn't want to eat your food is stupid. Just don't invite them to dinner anymore.
There's plenty of non-asians eating at the most "authentic" places, but when I go into some of them I notice that the populations are still more skewed towards the people of that make up that culture. Why? Because most people tend to gravitate towards food they're familiar with. No matter how much I tell someone that a beef tendon and noodle soup is going to be good, they're going to be hesitant because it's foreign and they're unfamiliar with the ingredients. That's fine. It's ultimately just food, and people don't have to eat anything they don't want to.
To me, David Chang and his constant hemming and hawing about how nobody respects Korean food (specifically Korean food, although he sometimes tries to throw a blanket over the whole of Asian food although he knows he's being disingenuous and his whole tone changes when he does that) is just so annoying. I'm sorry that Koreans haven't done as well marketing their cuisines as Indians, Chinese and Japanese restaurants have. But it's changing. In the mid-90's sushi was still considered exotic and interesting. Now you can buy it at a gas station. He just seems very impatient and indignant that "the masses" take a long time to change what they consider to be part of normal American Cuisine, and he should know better.
TL;dr- getting upset someone doesn't want to eat your food is stupid. Just don't invite them to dinner anymore.
> What's wrong with these people?
> I really can't understand it.
Why does anything have to be wrong with them? Why can't it just be that they have different tastes?
I have no issue with you having your own opinion (it's stupid; I won't do it, I can't understand). That's all well and good.
Saying "what is wrong with these people" about something you don't understand, but that is harmless thing and doesn't involve you significantly... that's just plain close-minded.
The comment above yours at least tried to provide some reasoning (people following recommendations, fooling themselves with cognitive dissonance), but it didn't try to draw a distinct "me vs them, something is wrong with them" as your comment did.
You should reflect a little if this is your gut reaction to people doing something you don't understand but that is harmless; it shouldn't be "something is wrong with them", it should be "I wonder what they see in it? I just don't get it for some reason; I guess we live different lives"
> I really can't understand it.
Why does anything have to be wrong with them? Why can't it just be that they have different tastes?
I have no issue with you having your own opinion (it's stupid; I won't do it, I can't understand). That's all well and good.
Saying "what is wrong with these people" about something you don't understand, but that is harmless thing and doesn't involve you significantly... that's just plain close-minded.
The comment above yours at least tried to provide some reasoning (people following recommendations, fooling themselves with cognitive dissonance), but it didn't try to draw a distinct "me vs them, something is wrong with them" as your comment did.
You should reflect a little if this is your gut reaction to people doing something you don't understand but that is harmless; it shouldn't be "something is wrong with them", it should be "I wonder what they see in it? I just don't get it for some reason; I guess we live different lives"
I waited about two hours to eat at a ramen place in San Diego. Worth it. And the whole time we waited I complained this was stupid. I was wrong. Very well managed wait experience though.
Hmm, hours is weird and beyond my limits but many restaurants serve quite good ramen many enjoy.
I eat at a few other particularly popular Portland restaurants where they don't take reservations and the wait can be several hours. Fortunately they will put your name on a list so you can go do something else in the meantime. It's easy to say this sitting behind my computer, but I think the only thing I would change if I were in the owners shoes, is to handle the crowds at the door better. Just because you have a long line doesn't mean you have to change anything about your business, go faster, be more stressed, etc. You would have to convey that to your employees as well.
When I visited Portland me and a friend tried to go to that ice cream spot everyone loves. Way too long so we went to the book store instead
I went to that donut place that is a brand in itself. Kind of over hyped. Wish I spent the hour plus waiting in line at the technical branch of that Valhalla of book stores.
In case anyone tries to look this up, the standalone Powell's technical book store is now closed and has been merged into the main store on Burnside (mostly located on the top floor).
Thank you for letting us know.
I suppose it says something about the city that I'm pretty sure "that ice cream spot everyone loves" is Salt & Straw on NW 23rd. The line there is always ridiculous and there's other great local ice cream places within a 10-minute walk throughout downtown.
There's a BBQ place here in the warehouse area south of the Phoenix airport similar to the described. Every day, at open, there's already 45-90 minutes of people in line. I've been by several restaurants that face similar issues.
In my mind, no restaurant is worth an hour wait before you can even get an order in. I'd just assume go to the #2/3 on the list over facing that.
On the one hand, it's nice when you find a place with really good food that makes it into your normal rotation. And you're really happy when they're always busy. But it's when you get a line out the door and around the block that you start to look elsewhere, and sometimes you miss it.
The Chino Bandito on 19th and Greenway was a bit like that at lunch for a long time... Of course I discovered the mediterranian place right next door to it (man, it takes nerve to open a restaurant right next to a hot spot). But the food there is really good (one of the better options in phx) and it's usually not too busy.
Of course I've seen the reverse too. A place with incredible food that you love that never seems to find it's regular footing. Often due to an awkward location more than any other reason I can think of. Just as often as I'd see a place I love blow up, I've gone back to a place I haven't been to in a year or two (usually in an area I'm just not near very often) only to find it's gone.
I don't know what the answer is, as commercial interests will usually corrupt what starts out really cool. I still use yelp, but the horror stories about their pushy sales really leaves me wondering.
In my mind, no restaurant is worth an hour wait before you can even get an order in. I'd just assume go to the #2/3 on the list over facing that.
On the one hand, it's nice when you find a place with really good food that makes it into your normal rotation. And you're really happy when they're always busy. But it's when you get a line out the door and around the block that you start to look elsewhere, and sometimes you miss it.
The Chino Bandito on 19th and Greenway was a bit like that at lunch for a long time... Of course I discovered the mediterranian place right next door to it (man, it takes nerve to open a restaurant right next to a hot spot). But the food there is really good (one of the better options in phx) and it's usually not too busy.
Of course I've seen the reverse too. A place with incredible food that you love that never seems to find it's regular footing. Often due to an awkward location more than any other reason I can think of. Just as often as I'd see a place I love blow up, I've gone back to a place I haven't been to in a year or two (usually in an area I'm just not near very often) only to find it's gone.
I don't know what the answer is, as commercial interests will usually corrupt what starts out really cool. I still use yelp, but the horror stories about their pushy sales really leaves me wondering.
Everyone here is suggesting the "correct" business-y solutions, like "raise prices", "offer membership", etc -- but sometimes, you don't need sound economic theory, you just need a dirty hack that kind of works. Change the name and move a block over. Boom. Tourists gone. (You should be able, in this situation, to convince a lender that you can build a successful business, if liquidity is an issue.)
The question of how businesses should treat long term customers is something I think about a lot. When I worked in a cable company call center I used to hear people complain about rate increases being unfair because they had been customers for such a long time. Which doesn't really matter in a duopoly. Compare that to a restaurants where there's so much competition that efforts to maintain loyalty seem almost futile.
This is why I tell no one of my favorite spots. My second favorite bars, restaurants, and nature spots are where I meet coworkers, dates from apps, and acquaintances. Only close friends/partners/family get to know my true favorites - keeps them healthy as long as possible.
For example, I know of a cheap, quiet bar in the heart of a major west coast city. It's not perfect, but it's got wifi and cheap drafts and is relatively clean despite beinga dive.
I not only take no one there I don't really like, I will actively discourage people if someone notices it on Yelp when we're debating where to go.
(Luckily, it has a deceptively low Yelp rating due to the hordes of techies who think being told "buy something to get a key to the bathroom" is equivalent to being spit in the face so I can invoke the magical word "sketchy" and steer my party clear)
For example, I know of a cheap, quiet bar in the heart of a major west coast city. It's not perfect, but it's got wifi and cheap drafts and is relatively clean despite beinga dive.
I not only take no one there I don't really like, I will actively discourage people if someone notices it on Yelp when we're debating where to go.
(Luckily, it has a deceptively low Yelp rating due to the hordes of techies who think being told "buy something to get a key to the bathroom" is equivalent to being spit in the face so I can invoke the magical word "sketchy" and steer my party clear)
How will you feel if it goes out of business from not enough patronage or if the owner closes it because it's not meeting his financial requirements for retirement?
If the owner just wants a quiet cozy place that's certainly great but maybe the owner wants the place to be 3x as busy or maybe she want's to open a bigger place or 2nd place as soon as she gets enough people and funds.
If the owner just wants a quiet cozy place that's certainly great but maybe the owner wants the place to be 3x as busy or maybe she want's to open a bigger place or 2nd place as soon as she gets enough people and funds.
I am particularly sensitive to this issue as I live in a beautiful tropical metropolis which everyone on the planet knows about and is the stereotypical vacation spot and which sees more and more tourists every year. I'm 100% behind OP. If the owner of the business wants to scale, that's their job. If I've found a truly amazing place, I keep it to myself and only maybe tell my closest friends after a lot of careful thought. One word to the wrong person and it will be gone. Loads of stuff here is ephemeral, even if loads of other places are institutions. It's best to just enjoy it while you can. The city and county here are well-known to shut down popular areas that two months ago were a "best-kept secret" before Instagram got a hold of it and now it's almost destroyed by foot traffic. I could post a link to an article in our newspaper from just last week about something being closed for repairs of which, if you are actually from or living in Tokyo, you may have seen pictures making the rounds on Instagram, as it was very popular with Japanese tourists. I live at the far end of that slippery slope and it definitely happens.
>How will you feel if it goes out of business from not enough patronage or if the owner closes it because it's not meeting his financial requirements for retirement?
No place I've done this with has gone out of business yet. Keep in mind - I found it. Others will too.
No place I've done this with has gone out of business yet. Keep in mind - I found it. Others will too.
Well, another POV is that some people like to help others. If the owner wants more business then helping them is spreading the word. Yea, it sucks you don't get to keep your special place but I'd rather help my friends achieve their goals than hold them back for my own selfish reasons.
If I had a friend running a restaurant or bar and they told me "don't spread the word I want this place to stay cozy" then of course I'd respect their wishes. If on the other hand they want to grow then I'd help them spread the word.
If I had a friend running a restaurant or bar and they told me "don't spread the word I want this place to stay cozy" then of course I'd respect their wishes. If on the other hand they want to grow then I'd help them spread the word.
>Well, another POV is that some people like to help others.
Is causing my favorite bar to have an increase in customers, to the point that it's unable to deliver the good service I came to enjoy, a good thing? Said bar then starts to tweak things - they hire more staff, raise prices.
Next thing you know, the qualities that made people to flock to said bar are gone, customers die dow, and the owner is forced to lay people off and possibly is stuck with a bill for equipment or refurbishings they can't cover. This kills the bar.
I've seen it happen more than once.
Again, as I said: people before me found the bar, and people after me will too.
Is causing my favorite bar to have an increase in customers, to the point that it's unable to deliver the good service I came to enjoy, a good thing? Said bar then starts to tweak things - they hire more staff, raise prices.
Next thing you know, the qualities that made people to flock to said bar are gone, customers die dow, and the owner is forced to lay people off and possibly is stuck with a bill for equipment or refurbishings they can't cover. This kills the bar.
I've seen it happen more than once.
Again, as I said: people before me found the bar, and people after me will too.
Spoiler: he didn't actually kill the restaurant. He made it really popular, and it shut down for unrelated reasons.
Unless they're already too busy, 99% of small business owners would love to have this "problem" of huge lines out their door.
This reads as yet manifestation of the idea that because I'm in a place or I found something or I live somewhere, all the people who came after me are undeserving filth who are going to "ruin it". Same idea as anti-transplant, anti-foreigner, anti-gentrification, anti-tourist, anti-development, etc. I got here on this date, so that's a reasonable cut off for who "deserves" to be here.
As someone else in this thread put it: you're not in the traffic jam, you are the traffic jam.
Unless they're already too busy, 99% of small business owners would love to have this "problem" of huge lines out their door.
This reads as yet manifestation of the idea that because I'm in a place or I found something or I live somewhere, all the people who came after me are undeserving filth who are going to "ruin it". Same idea as anti-transplant, anti-foreigner, anti-gentrification, anti-tourist, anti-development, etc. I got here on this date, so that's a reasonable cut off for who "deserves" to be here.
As someone else in this thread put it: you're not in the traffic jam, you are the traffic jam.
This kinda sums up how I feel about what the internet has done to ya. Life just feels sort of grey now. If someone recommends a restaurant or book that used to have value. If you sought out their recommendation and felt the same way it was kind of part of our shared experience. Now people are googling a book before I can even finish the title, they are checking the stars on yelp as I tell them about a great restaurant I discovered.
By making all these experiences easy to discover all the magic was instantly removed. It’s like turning on a cheat code that shows you where all the treasures in a video game are located, sure you can gather them all with ease, but you lost the whole point of playing.
I really like the way you phrased that - following someone's recommendation and it becoming part of your shared experience with that person.
I've felt this in the past, but hadn't heard it put into words like that.
I've felt this in the past, but hadn't heard it put into words like that.
Great article. A paragraph with the gist of what I enjoyed in it:
"Or is this just what we are now -- a horde with a checklist and a camera phone, intent on self-producing the destruction of anything left that feels real, one Instagram story at a time?"
"Or is this just what we are now -- a horde with a checklist and a camera phone, intent on self-producing the destruction of anything left that feels real, one Instagram story at a time?"
Sorry, my engineering my mind craves a solution. Wouldn't forcing people into an asynchronous online/mobile queue be the best solution? You can favour verified locals if you want there, control exactly how many orders you take in, and nip any potential disappointments (leading to bad Yelp reviews) right in the bud.
I've trekked to enough "Best <X> in <Y>" places and been the "outsider" grumbling waiting outside in a giant lineup (or being at the front of the line at 9am), to know that it is a cherished experience while travelling, giving you a piece of local flare, and like many problems a focussed effort could help it scale properly.
I've trekked to enough "Best <X> in <Y>" places and been the "outsider" grumbling waiting outside in a giant lineup (or being at the front of the line at 9am), to know that it is a cherished experience while travelling, giving you a piece of local flare, and like many problems a focussed effort could help it scale properly.
I feel like the problem there is that it would require expending a lot of effort to solve what will probably be a temporary problem. That kind of system isn't going to be cheap, and the high traffic will only last as long as the list in question is popular. As soon as another 'best burger place' comes along, all that traffic is probably going to die down, and now you're a small diner left with this complex expensive system.
It reminds me a lot of the dilemma facing graphics card makers recently, wherein the cards keep getting bought up by cryptocurrency miners. If they raise prices, they're pricing out of the regular customers who will stick around after the cryptocurrency mining dies down, and if they raise their production capacity too much then they will be left with massive overcapacity with things die down.
It reminds me a lot of the dilemma facing graphics card makers recently, wherein the cards keep getting bought up by cryptocurrency miners. If they raise prices, they're pricing out of the regular customers who will stick around after the cryptocurrency mining dies down, and if they raise their production capacity too much then they will be left with massive overcapacity with things die down.
I'm thinking this could be a solution that various businesses could adopt temporarily. And not a turnkey solution for each business.
These stories also keep coming out of various businesses in Europe with the influx of Chinese and Indian tourists, eager to pay them but the businesses have no infrastructure to "shape" the inflow of customers.
If this is indeed a big problem, this is also a big opportunity.
These stories also keep coming out of various businesses in Europe with the influx of Chinese and Indian tourists, eager to pay them but the businesses have no infrastructure to "shape" the inflow of customers.
If this is indeed a big problem, this is also a big opportunity.
You're trying to engineer a solution to the problem of "how do you make everyone happy" (albeit in a specific scenario). If you change things, someone will be upset by this. At best you can hope to optimize this to make the MOST people happy and the LEAST people unhappy, but you can't get a perfect score here.
The saddest thing about this link is a huge fucking spammy email popup. Would downvote if I could.
That's absolutely not the journalist's fault.
What a great, thoughtful, introspective piece. How rare. I do miss Stanich's and was actually unaware of what happened. Great place - I hope he can work it out.
If it is true local restaurant or pub you should have locals coming regularly. It means they have reservations for whole year on same time at some day. This is true for Prague pub called U Zlateho Tygra. That pub is in city center and in every turist book. Locals have booked tables all the days for whole year. Tourists can sit if locals don't appear or between 3 and 6pm before locals come.
See "The E-Myth Principle is Still Alive and Flourishing" at https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinzwilling/2013/04/25/the-e...
"The E-Myth ('Entrepreneurial Myth') is the mistaken belief that most businesses are started by people with tangible business skills, when in fact most are started by 'technicians' who know nothing about running a business. Hence most fail...Let me assure you that in my experience, ...I still see too many businesses started by technicians who haven’t acquired the basic skills or knowledge, or still assume that business acumen is a minor part of the new business equation."
"The E-Myth ('Entrepreneurial Myth') is the mistaken belief that most businesses are started by people with tangible business skills, when in fact most are started by 'technicians' who know nothing about running a business. Hence most fail...Let me assure you that in my experience, ...I still see too many businesses started by technicians who haven’t acquired the basic skills or knowledge, or still assume that business acumen is a minor part of the new business equation."
Some restaurants just can't handle the hype. I just read about a family who returned their michelin star [1] for the sake of their own relationships and ultimately their business.
> “It got to the stage where it was difficult juggling family life with working five nights a week later in the evening and also doing breakfast for residents, doing all the prep work, keeping on top of the paperwork and admin,” said Kathryn.
I admire folks like this who have their priorities straight. If they were to scale up, they'd most likely loose the charm that earned them the star to begin with. Charm seems to be exclusive to smaller establishments, in this context.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/nov/16/checkers-restau...
> “It got to the stage where it was difficult juggling family life with working five nights a week later in the evening and also doing breakfast for residents, doing all the prep work, keeping on top of the paperwork and admin,” said Kathryn.
I admire folks like this who have their priorities straight. If they were to scale up, they'd most likely loose the charm that earned them the star to begin with. Charm seems to be exclusive to smaller establishments, in this context.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/nov/16/checkers-restau...
In my experience, rarely do these "best [food item] in [location]" lists (even the more reputable ones) deliver anything better than a marginally better dish. Sometimes even a lesser one because the author's personal preferences were different from yours or you craved a particular taste that was underrepresented in the food.
I don't think I've ever gone out to one of these places and had my expectations matched - you basically wait in line for so long that your mind convinces you it was better than everything else to justify the wait.
Living in NYC made me shake my head every weekend; seeing people lined up multiple hours for "the best" weekend brunch when there were countless top-notch options right down the street was just incomprehensible - it's a cultural and social/psychological gimmick to just be at the top spot.
I don't think I've ever gone out to one of these places and had my expectations matched - you basically wait in line for so long that your mind convinces you it was better than everything else to justify the wait.
Living in NYC made me shake my head every weekend; seeing people lined up multiple hours for "the best" weekend brunch when there were countless top-notch options right down the street was just incomprehensible - it's a cultural and social/psychological gimmick to just be at the top spot.
Really interesting article. This is the link to the yelp review: https://www.yelp.com/biz/stanichs-portland-5?osq=stanich
IMO, it's unfair to blame it on the guy who recommended the restaurant. There are thousands of restaurants that dream to have it happen. Think of it like this, I write an app and Mark Z shares it on his twitter. Sure, the traffic can kill the app, but I have to find a way to maintain it and do my due diligence to make sure the site will run smoothly when the user base increases.
It's too bad what happened. It does appear the real problem was family issues and not having great business practice. NOT the author/article.
I want to include the fact that burgers are probably my second favorite food after a Nigiri set.
IMO, it's unfair to blame it on the guy who recommended the restaurant. There are thousands of restaurants that dream to have it happen. Think of it like this, I write an app and Mark Z shares it on his twitter. Sure, the traffic can kill the app, but I have to find a way to maintain it and do my due diligence to make sure the site will run smoothly when the user base increases.
It's too bad what happened. It does appear the real problem was family issues and not having great business practice. NOT the author/article.
I want to include the fact that burgers are probably my second favorite food after a Nigiri set.
It makes a great point about mass tourism in general and what it does to the local population.
When I went for training at Qantel Computers in Hayward California long ago for a few weeks, we desperately searched for decent food in the area and even bought a hot plate to make our own food in our hotel room (which we later were told to remove cause that wasn't legal at the time). On our very last night, our handlers told us about a family owned Mexican restaurant down the street. We ate there that night and it was the best Mexican food I have ever had.
"Why didn't you tell us about that place weeks ago!", we cried. "Cause every time we do, when we go there to eat, we have to stand in line behind guys like you and can't get in", they said.
"Why didn't you tell us about that place weeks ago!", we cried. "Cause every time we do, when we go there to eat, we have to stand in line behind guys like you and can't get in", they said.
"The Tragedy of the Commons":https://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles_pdf/tragedy_of...
[deleted]
There is a simple way to solve this problem.
A special startup can he inacted to solve this frequent problem.
We'll not use any special card or ID. Showing ID for a burger seems invasive and special loyality card, we can forget to carry it.
Blue accounts are loyal customers.
Green ones are tourist/one timers.
1. Use colored money concept.
2. If a customer sends money from their mobile wallet more than X times, their account is colored for this particular merchant.
If merchant has set a rule, if payment is > X times / Y dollars, then apply 50% discount for A duration/B payments.
3. Anyone not confirming with app, doesn't qualify for any discount.
Cash + app will also be supported.
Now simply adjust the prices to reach the demand you can keep up with.
A special startup can he inacted to solve this frequent problem.
We'll not use any special card or ID. Showing ID for a burger seems invasive and special loyality card, we can forget to carry it.
Blue accounts are loyal customers.
Green ones are tourist/one timers.
1. Use colored money concept.
2. If a customer sends money from their mobile wallet more than X times, their account is colored for this particular merchant.
If merchant has set a rule, if payment is > X times / Y dollars, then apply 50% discount for A duration/B payments.
3. Anyone not confirming with app, doesn't qualify for any discount.
Cash + app will also be supported.
Now simply adjust the prices to reach the demand you can keep up with.
You know, I'll bet a lot of you are thinking: "Oh, this is just a scalability problem." :-)
The key is that Mr. Stanich wants to preferably serve his locals. This rules out simple approaches like raising prices to astronomical levels or requiring reservations a month in advance.
A ticketing system (or reserve in-person day-of), plus a set of reserved tables for locals, seems like the most workable of the approaches here. The franchising option also looks tempting, but I expect that little of what got this burger to #1 would survive the transition.
Hey, any chance we can get Mr. Stanich to open a second location down here in Santa Clara? Asking for a friend. ;-)
The key is that Mr. Stanich wants to preferably serve his locals. This rules out simple approaches like raising prices to astronomical levels or requiring reservations a month in advance.
A ticketing system (or reserve in-person day-of), plus a set of reserved tables for locals, seems like the most workable of the approaches here. The franchising option also looks tempting, but I expect that little of what got this burger to #1 would survive the transition.
Hey, any chance we can get Mr. Stanich to open a second location down here in Santa Clara? Asking for a friend. ;-)
This is another aspect of frictionless criticism. Being able to tell the whole wide world 'this is the one bestest burger in America', EVEN IF IT'S TRUE, is greatly different from just knowing it for yourself. Things don't scale the way internet attention can scale.
And nothing a 'market' or price-juggling can do, will change that. If you simply jack the price until it's so high that the sales unit volume is the same as it should be, you've completely changed everything in the dynamics of the business and its relationship to its context. You can't CURE this with markets.
And nothing a 'market' or price-juggling can do, will change that. If you simply jack the price until it's so high that the sales unit volume is the same as it should be, you've completely changed everything in the dynamics of the business and its relationship to its context. You can't CURE this with markets.
>“It was always delicious, but never really crowded,” he said. “But then it started appearing on all these national lists, and now, no matter the day, you’ve got to get there before 11am if you don’t want to wait two hours.”
Like Knaus Berry Farm here in Miami, which opens only for the season. They sell these cinammon rolls which I shit you not people line up for since 4am to get them.
I went one day at 10am thinking everybody is at work; nope - still full with a line curving out in the sunny sidewalk.
Their food is good but not "wait in the hot Miami sun for four hours" good.
Like Knaus Berry Farm here in Miami, which opens only for the season. They sell these cinammon rolls which I shit you not people line up for since 4am to get them.
I went one day at 10am thinking everybody is at work; nope - still full with a line curving out in the sunny sidewalk.
Their food is good but not "wait in the hot Miami sun for four hours" good.
This is similar to why I hate when TV shows feature my favorite local restaurants. They either create so much traffic the quality of the food takes a dip, or they get so busy it's just obscene and the only people who go there are tourists checking off some Guy Fieri bucket list. I'm sure some owners don't mind so long as money keeps coming in, but boy does it suck for the community who basically lose a quality eatery to novelty.
Here what I would have done if I were Stanich (and didnt experience those personal family problems)
If you're a regular / local / I know you. you get service as normal.
If youre an out of towner coming here on the basis of the review then you must book in advance. and we only book as many of these per day as we can handle. If your an out of towner and just turn up, and we're not booked-out, or happen to be under capacity then you can dine as normal.
If you're a regular / local / I know you. you get service as normal.
If youre an out of towner coming here on the basis of the review then you must book in advance. and we only book as many of these per day as we can handle. If your an out of towner and just turn up, and we're not booked-out, or happen to be under capacity then you can dine as normal.
I wonder if raising prices quite a bit would have helped.
Not likely. The issues were far deeper than cash flow.
The new business was primarily one and done visitors anyway. By the time you've made the trip to the foodie Mecca of Portland and traveled across town to try the "country's best burger" would you really be deterred by a $15 price tag vs $10? How much would you have to raise the price to make that work? How do you do this without forever alienating your loyal local customers once you have successfully chased the hordes away?
The new business was primarily one and done visitors anyway. By the time you've made the trip to the foodie Mecca of Portland and traveled across town to try the "country's best burger" would you really be deterred by a $15 price tag vs $10? How much would you have to raise the price to make that work? How do you do this without forever alienating your loyal local customers once you have successfully chased the hordes away?
Would you have travelled to Portland for the "country's best burger" if the price tag was $15 instead of $10? How about $20? How about $25?
Give the locals a loyalty card that gives them half-price burgers.
I wonder if those punch cards (or the digital equivalents) for loyalty points are effective at building a consistent customer base. They're not limited to locals but it might encourage locals to come back.
I used to work right next to Union Square in San Francisco, and the restaurant right across the street would give us a 'locals' card that would get us $5 off the crazy high prices. That way, locals could eat a normal meal but they could keep the tourist traffic at a reasonable level.
There is a fancy burger place near me that only serves a fixed number of customers per day. It is famous for the chef kicking people out for bringing children, dressing disrespectfully, and being offended for other random reasons. They gave out a membership card that allowed regulars to be seated immediately and avoid the daily limit.
That seems like a really smart way of handling it.
There are a bunch of restaurant types which just aren't that elastic to changing demand; basically anything which has a longer preparation time and is expensive enough that you can't afford to just massively overprovision. Thinking like slow-roasted meats, most soups/chilis, or fancy pastries like croissants, yeast-raised donuts, etc.
Basically any place that's serving that stuff (and legitimately making it in-house vs warming it up from frozen like a chain) is going to be done when they run out for the day. So handing out cards to locals to skip the line would be a great way of not alienating your loyal customer base.
There are a bunch of restaurant types which just aren't that elastic to changing demand; basically anything which has a longer preparation time and is expensive enough that you can't afford to just massively overprovision. Thinking like slow-roasted meats, most soups/chilis, or fancy pastries like croissants, yeast-raised donuts, etc.
Basically any place that's serving that stuff (and legitimately making it in-house vs warming it up from frozen like a chain) is going to be done when they run out for the day. So handing out cards to locals to skip the line would be a great way of not alienating your loyal customer base.
[deleted]
I think it would be interesting to try surge pricing with a twist: Keep menu prices the same, but when a line forms, require people eating at the restaurant to donate to a worthy charity. The price mechanism continues to function, but people feel good about paying more instead of feeling ripped off.
It was not money. The story made that obvious.
No, it is inability to deliver the intended experience.
Some people identify with that very, very strongly. Steve is one of those people.
Nail it, or don't bother.
He has a hard choice. Franchises are very hard to get right, and no matter what, they are shadows of the original. Like Vegas presentations are.
Or, go big. In n Out Burger us a potential example. They are growing, and own the culture, experience, even the food ingredients.
Both of those things are very different lives for the family, who prior to this story, were living one they held dear.
I applaud Steve for not placing blame. He knows it was good intent gone bad, and we cannot always know. Good human. And he also closed the loop, sharing it all.
The writer, having come to realizations, did right by telling this story, and Steve seemed to understand the value in all of that.
I enjoyed this piece. There is much to think about, and both writer and impacted person appear to be solid people, sharing their experiences in honest, frank, high value ways.
No, it is inability to deliver the intended experience.
Some people identify with that very, very strongly. Steve is one of those people.
Nail it, or don't bother.
He has a hard choice. Franchises are very hard to get right, and no matter what, they are shadows of the original. Like Vegas presentations are.
Or, go big. In n Out Burger us a potential example. They are growing, and own the culture, experience, even the food ingredients.
Both of those things are very different lives for the family, who prior to this story, were living one they held dear.
I applaud Steve for not placing blame. He knows it was good intent gone bad, and we cannot always know. Good human. And he also closed the loop, sharing it all.
The writer, having come to realizations, did right by telling this story, and Steve seemed to understand the value in all of that.
I enjoyed this piece. There is much to think about, and both writer and impacted person appear to be solid people, sharing their experiences in honest, frank, high value ways.
Not for the locals.
I think raise prices AND hire more people. Staffing could have solved lots of the problems. Restaurant owners are often penny-wise, pound-foolish when it comes to hiring...
I'd establish two lines at my newly famous hamburger place.
The express line would be paying $50/burger. The normal line would be paying the regular price. I'd have signage saying why this was the case, telling people I thought the traffic was crazy but what are you gonna do, and inviting people to come back some other time once the hubbub died down.
The express line would be paying $50/burger. The normal line would be paying the regular price. I'd have signage saying why this was the case, telling people I thought the traffic was crazy but what are you gonna do, and inviting people to come back some other time once the hubbub died down.
Are there similar stories of promising tech companies that achieved overnight fame but couldn't handle it and shut down?
Reading between the lines, poor Stanich had a close family member go deep with heroin, if not succumb. That's a burden that's just awful, and completely separate from critic damage.
I've found that the rest of a top 10 list is exceptional as well, but usually doesn't have the crazy lines that poor #1 has.
I've found that the rest of a top 10 list is exceptional as well, but usually doesn't have the crazy lines that poor #1 has.
Folks probably just scroll to '#1 the country' and decide to go
I wonder if this outcome could have been avoided if the list wasn't numbered, or was categorized in some other way - would an 'x best burgers' without a ranking prevent one place getting mobbed?
I wonder if this outcome could have been avoided if the list wasn't numbered, or was categorized in some other way - would an 'x best burgers' without a ranking prevent one place getting mobbed?
My thought for a solution to the food-tourist problem in cases like this is that if you've got ID that says you're local, great you're welcome. If not, well we've got 3-5 slots/day for those...
Seems like an easy fix is to only sell prepaid burger cards. Set some number - 10x, 20x, etc. the cost of a burger.
Keeps the locals able to frequent regularly and highly discourages anyone coming just to cross it off a list.
Keeps the locals able to frequent regularly and highly discourages anyone coming just to cross it off a list.
It's not just burger joints. I tremble every time I see my town mentioned positively knowing that too much publicity will drive out the people who made it a great place with ghastly land valuations.
I found the best extended stay in Denver and I’ve been avoiding reviewing it. The last thing I’d want to do is bring it to the attention of the people who ruin the other motels of that variety in the area.
Reminds me of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17378673
Too much success too quick is always bad I guess.
Too much success too quick is always bad I guess.
easy solution - serve only reservations and limit amount of reservations
this is doable without raising prices and hey you can have even quota of reservations for regulars
this is doable without raising prices and hey you can have even quota of reservations for regulars
[deleted]
Unpopular opinion: Good at cooking, bad at business.
Unclosable popup.
Toggling Firefox reader view on and off worked for me
https://i.imgur.com/Fz8RwgQ.png
Or you could just click the x
Or you could just click the x
I didn't see it, but you got to admit that they purposefully made it hard to find by putting it there, in that color considering the background.
Even though I found the X now, I won't read the article, just on principle.
Even though I found the X now, I won't read the article, just on principle.
[deleted]
Uh temporary surge pricing??, anyone !?
So restaurant reviews can be weaponized now, huh?
Hey everybody, tell all your friends and Yelp and foodie blogs that the BLT Prime by David Burke restaurant in the Washington, D.C. Trump® International Hotel has TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE hamburgers!!!
https://dc.eater.com/2017/9/19/16330572/trump-dover-sole-dav...
Hey everybody, tell all your friends and Yelp and foodie blogs that the BLT Prime by David Burke restaurant in the Washington, D.C. Trump® International Hotel has TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE hamburgers!!!
https://dc.eater.com/2017/9/19/16330572/trump-dover-sole-dav...
[deleted]
:D
I would visit this place a couple times per year.
It was a place you took someone to for a special time. And when done that way, as it was done for me (Thanks Joe P), the need to respect that seems obvious, built right in.
With life being how it is sometimes, it has been a while.
Damn. This story makes me sad.
I would visit this place a couple times per year.
It was a place you took someone to for a special time. And when done that way, as it was done for me (Thanks Joe P), the need to respect that seems obvious, built right in.
With life being how it is sometimes, it has been a while.
Damn. This story makes me sad.
What's the deal? Don't you guys have little secrets around town that you kind of want to respect, have a little bit of culture around?
>> Apparently, after my story came out, crowds of people started coming in the restaurant, people in from out of town, or from the suburbs, basically just non-regulars. And as the lines started to build up, his employees -- who were mainly family members -- got stressed out, and the stress would cause them to not be as friendly as they should be, or to shout out crazy long wait times for burgers in an attempt to maybe convince people to leave, and as this started happening, things fell by the wayside. Dishes weren’t cleared quickly, and these new people weren’t having the proper Stanich’s experience, and Steve would spend his entire day going around apologizing and trying to fix things. They might pay him lip service to his face, but they were never coming back so they had no problem going on Yelp or Facebook and denouncing the restaurant and saying that the burgers were bad.
Poor management is what caused the shutdown. Stanich knew about the problems and didn't fix them. Instead he went around apologizing about the problems that he shoulds have fixed in the first place.
Poor management is what caused the shutdown. Stanich knew about the problems and didn't fix them. Instead he went around apologizing about the problems that he shoulds have fixed in the first place.
They all miss the point of the story, which is crushingly relevant to startups:
If you build a company with people you like and love, and circumstances outside of your control force it to scale in a hurry, those people you like and love are going to get hurt in the process.
That's not an engineering problem to fix. Stanich's didn't need an algorithmic order filling solution, it needed to lose the people that made it Stanich's. It was doomed no matter what. It was unscalable; it's unscalability is what imbued it with what Alexander liked about it.
The story begins and ends with Stanich's parents and the reason why they started the business in the first place for a _massive_ reason, one that seems to have gone over the heads of most HN commenters (and I'll bet also most people reading it via HN), and that's at least as depressing as the story itself.