In Venezuela, life has gone from bad to worse. And the world has quit noticing(latimes.com)
latimes.com
In Venezuela, life has gone from bad to worse. And the world has quit noticing
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ocanto-venezuela-guaido-maduro-trujillo-radio-20190421-story.html
147 comments
The world still notices. I've recently seen a number of articles about the protests and the opposition leader Juan Guaido. In fact the New York Times published an op-ed piece by him fairly recently.
citing the new york times :/
didnt they push for WMD in iraq?
edit: ah yes, unquestioned reporting pushing the administration's policy of war. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/may/26/pressandpublis...
isnt this what happened with collusion as well? oh yeah https://taibbi.substack.com/
isnt this what happened with collusion as well? oh yeah https://taibbi.substack.com/
The actual content of the Mueller report makes Taibbi’s post about it appear both premature and immature.
Yes, there's been an enormous propaganda push to legitimize a future U.S. intervention - either a direct invasion, or igniting a full-blown civil war by arming right-wing paramilitaries, as was the standard operating procedure throughout the 80's.
The inflation rate is 2688670%, they are refusing aid, they are having widespread electricity outages and food shortages, it seems like their leader has become a despot.
At what point is it reasonable for an outside intervention?
At what point is it reasonable for an outside intervention?
They are not refusing food aid, the Red Cross etc. have been let on all along. The US announced the Venezuelan government had no sovereignty over their border and sent "aid" trucks in, which were blocked.
Incidentally, "humanitarian aid" is how the person the USA convicted as a criminal - Elliot Abrams - sent weapons to contras in and out of Nicaragua.
Incidentally, "humanitarian aid" is how the person the USA convicted as a criminal - Elliot Abrams - sent weapons to contras in and out of Nicaragua.
They absolutely are refusing food aid. Sources below. What is your stake in denying this? Are you pro-Maduro?
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/americas/venezuela-aid-blocke...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/with-...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-diplom...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/americas/venezuela-aid-blocke...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/with-...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-diplom...
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danemacaulay(1)
> If there is power, and I can do my job, I’ve been told by my bosses to be more measured in how I cover what’s happening in Venezuela. They’re terrified of being shut down by the government and having their equipment confiscated. That would spell the end of our station.
Maybe writing a (non-anonymous) article about the situation for the LA Times isn't the best idea?
Maybe writing a (non-anonymous) article about the situation for the LA Times isn't the best idea?
The baffling thing about this is the vast oil wealth the country controls. Its oil reserves are the largest in the word, yet its economy lies in shambles.
That takes some serious mismanagement.
That takes some serious mismanagement.
The oil reserves are in shambles too, due to as you said mismanagement. They are a special type of oil that requires extra investment to produce, and the government has failed to make those investments.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/01/29/charting-the...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2019/01/29/charting-the...
There is no mismanagement. This is what happens when organized crime takes control of a country - they milk it for what it's worth and when they are done it is but a lifeless husk.
They do not care a wit for the future and the need to reinvest into production or safety[0], they'll use it while they can, extract what they can and then try to flee the country. Most engineers and doctors have already fled the country.
[0] This includes the country's power system too, Maduro blamed recent blackouts on US hackers, but the entire system is not even digital, so the attack vector for hacking did not exist in the first place. That, and the recent accident on a hydro plant, reported to have been a diversion, carried out by a lone saboteur with a gun...
They do not care a wit for the future and the need to reinvest into production or safety[0], they'll use it while they can, extract what they can and then try to flee the country. Most engineers and doctors have already fled the country.
[0] This includes the country's power system too, Maduro blamed recent blackouts on US hackers, but the entire system is not even digital, so the attack vector for hacking did not exist in the first place. That, and the recent accident on a hydro plant, reported to have been a diversion, carried out by a lone saboteur with a gun...
the oil is poor quality and requires constant reinvestment in extraction and refinement infrastructure to remain competitive with other exporters. for various reasons this investment has been neglected for the last decade or two, but it’s not quite a turnkey fix to just decide to sell more oil.
The economy of Venezuela lies in shambles due to US intervention and sanctions. Venezuela has very limited access to the world market.
Easily untrue. The US has been 40% of Venezuela's oil export[0]. If they wanted to, they could have obliterated Venezuela's economy in a second.
[0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/EEPPHOTO...
P.S. I'm Russian and do not have the regional bias.
[0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/EEPPHOTO...
P.S. I'm Russian and do not have the regional bias.
I'm from Colombia and my family lives in one of the biggest cities that is relatively close to the border. I visit frequently and every time I visit, there are more and more venezuelan immigrants. This started happening years ago.
I'm shocked by the people who pretend that this is all propaganda and that the venezuelan people are ok with their government. I'm sure that the people living on the streets here aren't.
I'm shocked by the people who pretend that this is all propaganda and that the venezuelan people are ok with their government. I'm sure that the people living on the streets here aren't.
How do their "leaders" still have their heads?
They have the support of the military forces. So rioting doesn't work. It just gets you killed on the street with no repercussions for the government.
Also, the word "leader" implies that this is a legitimate democracy, which is not. Venezuela has an authoritarian corrupt government at best, a dictatorship at worst.
Also, the word "leader" implies that this is a legitimate democracy, which is not. Venezuela has an authoritarian corrupt government at best, a dictatorship at worst.
A wise leader once said: All things grow out of the barrel of a gun. According to the Marxist theory of the state, the army is the chief component of state power. Whoever wants to seize and retain state power must have a strong army.
I think the quote is actually, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun," per Google and Wikipedia. Is this part of Marxist theory, or Maoist? I genuinely don't know. I had always thought that Marx viewed the revolution as at least potentially peaceful, but I confess I have never read him.
It was Mao Zedong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_power_grows_out_of_t...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_power_grows_out_of_t...
Ah, I know who it was. I was more asking whether he was reflecting a viewpoint from earlier Marxist theory, or whether it was a novel viewpoint of his.
I think he based it on reality rather than theory. Every communist government has use force to "maintain the revolution": USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, DPRK, China, Romania, etc.
The populace is largely disarmed.
The reason the leaders of Venezuela still have their heads is that they first won free and fair elections and they then proceeded to do the will of the people.
The support of the military and by being a not so well known narcostate. If the situation would come to light properly maybe then we will see massive change. I am surprised nothing is done about it honestly.
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The government still has the support of an enormous number of people, mostly from the largely non-white working classes, whose economic and political interests were trampled on by the pre-Bolivarian governments and who are naturally suspicious of the right-wing agitators currently attempting to overthrow the government with the backing of foreign powers
It's not always that easy. Look at what's going on in the US right now for example...
The US political situation is not even remotely comparable, ignoring the plundering of the economy by the government and military, in 2020 or by 2024 at the latest, the US WILL have a different president. Absolutely and without a shadow of a doubt.
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Presidents are inaugurated the year after the election, so ‘21 or ‘25.
We don't butcher sewer rats for food in the US...
EdSharkey(1)
Unfortunately, the population accepted a gun ban back in 2012.
There are plenty of guns in the population - the regime has armed supporters and organized them as militias.
As long as the military continues to support the government, an armed population cannot not successfully force Maduro out.
There are also many Venezuelan civilians who still support the regime. These people would presumably also have guns.
There are also many Venezuelan civilians who still support the regime. These people would presumably also have guns.
The decline im Venezuela was quite rapid from a high place. The people there must be in shock and desperate. I'm not wishing for violence, but it seems like the rare kind of scenario where violence might be successful. And Chavez was clearly concerned about it enough to disarm people before the collapse happened.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I hear the theory often that armed civilians can't effect positive change, and I don't know where the certainty comes from. Surely it's a longshot, like all violence is because of the ensuing chaos, but it seems plausible when the people at least remember something better.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I hear the theory often that armed civilians can't effect positive change, and I don't know where the certainty comes from. Surely it's a longshot, like all violence is because of the ensuing chaos, but it seems plausible when the people at least remember something better.
Dont forget that Venezuela is now a narco state. As long as this goes on they will keep feeding the rich military heads and screw everybody else over. Nobody will do anything till Forbes magazine makes an article about it though (seems to be a weird meme portayed by Netflix's Narcos series, it wasnt till they wound up on Forbes magazine that the biggest of drug lords were taken down by the DEA for whatever reason).
this goes against every revolution in the history books.
Untrue. Read (for example) Erica Chenoweth's detailed empirical work on civil resistance. Nonviolent resistance has a considerably higher real-world chance of success than armed uprising. It also has the huge advantage of leaving behind less collective trauma, giving post-revolutionary society a better chance of sustaining peace.
Even the unsuccessful?
Or the successful ones that just lead to another autocracy?
Or the successful ones that just lead to another autocracy?
What are you trying to say? Things would be better if "the population" had guns?
Violence is chaotic, so usually doesn't work in anyone's favor. But a very bad regime might be deterred from imposing some of the worst policies on people if they are armed, because potential chaos could topple the regime.
For instance, it's hard for me to imagine actually blocking food aid from coming in to hungry people. The people waiting for that food may get desperate and violent. If enough are armed, the ensuing violence and chaos might topple the regime.
So Maduro might have been worried enough not to block the food aid if more Venezuelans were armed.
For instance, it's hard for me to imagine actually blocking food aid from coming in to hungry people. The people waiting for that food may get desperate and violent. If enough are armed, the ensuing violence and chaos might topple the regime.
So Maduro might have been worried enough not to block the food aid if more Venezuelans were armed.
I suspect Venezuela went from bad to worse, and it’s not yet hit rock bottom. If I were a citizen, I’d prefer to be armed.
If I were a citizen, I would also prefer to be armed. I am a good guy, and know what is right and what is wrong.
Unlike my idiot Maduro-supporting neighbour with his stupid, socialist ideas - and violent tendencies! I would prefer him to be un-armed.
Unlike my idiot Maduro-supporting neighbour with his stupid, socialist ideas - and violent tendencies! I would prefer him to be un-armed.
After socialism took over Venezuela in 2007 through Chavez the "eternal president" of Venezuela I wouldnt consider any votes as valid. I still remember back then knowing that things were wrong and bad in Venezuela. He was president till he died. The elections were a joke.
unlike the last elections, when the opposition boycotted the election then declared itself interim government
There is a lot more that the population accepted, it's not just the gun ban. Venezuela is the right-winger's nightmare scenario, basically where politicians got elected on left wing promises and then switched to being completely corrupt. The gun ban is just one element of their total coverage of every single American right wing fear. Honestly at this point the biggest reason why someone in America might oppose government situations like universal healthcare is out of the reasonable fear that they will be administrated corruptly to the point where they're worse than nothing.
It's not just Venezuela, look at what is happening in Haiti.
droithomme(2)
YoyoyoPCP(1)
Hydraulix989(1)
alanz1223(3)
[flagged]
Getting a lot of downvotes for this comment, but could someone please explain where I'm going wrong? A lot of people think the way I do, so it would be helpful to explain.
A country with a bright future just a couple decades ago experienced a truly remarkable decline after a socialist was elected. I'm sure there are other factors, but surely this is going to be seen as yet another failure of socialism.
Whether this is because the socialism was not "implemented correctly" or not, clearly the socialist label has been used by a number of very bad people as a way to accumulate more power.
A country with a bright future just a couple decades ago experienced a truly remarkable decline after a socialist was elected. I'm sure there are other factors, but surely this is going to be seen as yet another failure of socialism.
Whether this is because the socialism was not "implemented correctly" or not, clearly the socialist label has been used by a number of very bad people as a way to accumulate more power.
For anyone reading: HN encourages us to comment if we disagree, not silently downvote, unless the comment lacks any relevant content, and doesn’t add to the conversation.
This clearly is relevant, and it adds something to the conversation, whether or not you agree with it.
If you’re unwilling to question whether you’re correct, you’ll never be able to adapt your views and become more correct. There’s no shame in being incorrect, if it takes you closer to correctness long-term.
Please remember that, along with the principle of charity— very few people are here to troll. We’re here to critically think about the links and their meanings, consequences, and related debates.
This clearly is relevant, and it adds something to the conversation, whether or not you agree with it.
If you’re unwilling to question whether you’re correct, you’ll never be able to adapt your views and become more correct. There’s no shame in being incorrect, if it takes you closer to correctness long-term.
Please remember that, along with the principle of charity— very few people are here to troll. We’re here to critically think about the links and their meanings, consequences, and related debates.
It might not give you an answer but nevertheless quite interesting and might be enlightening to you, there’s a podcast called The History of Oil, it covers Venezuela among other countries.
I think you're being downvoted because specific questions about specific countries, like yours, end up being used as broad-sweeping scare tactics to avoid or shut down discussion of universal health care. In the U.S. even just socializing medicine is seen by some as total conversation to socialism, and in some of the more ignorant cases communism.
I think your questions are triggering that emotional response.
I think your questions are triggering that emotional response.
I think you pushed enough buttons and simplified the issues enough that people who disagreed with you downvoted you. No big deal...
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It would be interesting to know the fraction of totalitarian governments that are socialist or communist. You could probably compile something based off [1] cross referenced with governance style. It is not clear to me that socialism is over-represented in the authoritarian set compared to the non-authoritarian states, but I haven't gone through the list rigorously.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
bjourne(1)
I'm not a socialist. However, the claim that socialism necessiates a central gov is not universally accepted. Furthermore most socialists envision socialism as anarchism, as in self-governing workers' collectives, etc.
venezuela is under economic attack, see http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/marapr_19/marapr_19_05.htm...
that centralized planning doesnt work is just wrong :) look to walmart and amazon as examples of efficient central planning. https://www.versobooks.com/books/2822-the-people-s-republic-...
that centralized planning doesnt work is just wrong :) look to walmart and amazon as examples of efficient central planning. https://www.versobooks.com/books/2822-the-people-s-republic-...
> that centralized planning doesnt work is just wrong :) look to walmart and amazon as examples of efficient central planning.
Walmart is one of many players in the economy and it reacts to consumer demand when it decides what to produce and sell. That is not a form of central planning.
An example of central planning would be the government ordering Walmart to produce ten million bicycles per year and to sell them for $80 each -- regardless of how many people actually want to buy bicycles and how much they are willing to pay.
Walmart is one of many players in the economy and it reacts to consumer demand when it decides what to produce and sell. That is not a form of central planning.
An example of central planning would be the government ordering Walmart to produce ten million bicycles per year and to sell them for $80 each -- regardless of how many people actually want to buy bicycles and how much they are willing to pay.
how are those corporations the result of centralized planning?
Every instance of centralized planning by an authoritarian gov't has ended in disaster. And yet, every time, different excuses have been brought up about why it failed.
> The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Friedrich_Hayek#The_curio...
Every instance of centralized planning by an authoritarian gov't has ended in disaster. And yet, every time, different excuses have been brought up about why it failed.
> The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Friedrich_Hayek#The_curio...
You cannot possibly compare central planning as a reaction to the free-market (walmart and amazon) to the central planning of an entire nation's economic output / consumption.
That is so intellectually dishonest, I'm actually speechless.
That is so intellectually dishonest, I'm actually speechless.
When they have power, Bitcoin has been a solution for wealth preservation and capital movement given their pariah status with western banks and the never ending destruction of their currency. When the dust clears and capitalism is restored, there will be a fascinating case study on this development.
Hopefully when Bitcoin-Core transaction fees reach $30 again like they did in December 2017, the common Venezuelan people will be able to afford the $60 overhead ($30 opening fee and $30 reserve needed to close the channel in case of counterparty fraud) to open a Lightning Network channel, or simply switch to a more scalable cryptocurrency.
i’ve read accounts that say litecoin is nearly as popular as btc there
I'm not surprised. I'm betting on Bitcoin Cash, which has recently overtaken Litecoin in tx volume, and has most of the big early adopters in the Bitcoin space (e.g. Bitpay, Coinbase) backing it, and of course, Ethereum. It doesn't really matter what it is, as long as it can gain a sufficient amount of liquidity and number of users.
The world could always halt sanctions: the source of the problems.
The Venezuelan government destroyed the economy. On top of that, the government is using military force to prevent foreign aid from entering the country.
Sanctions make things a little bit worse, and they make Maduro's claims that outside forces are to blame for Venezuela's problems seem more convincing. (Sanctions have the same propaganda effect in North Korea).
But in any case, it is pretty clear that the Venezuelan government's mismanagement of the economy has been the primary factor for almost 20 years: Chavez was first elected in 1999 and the problems began under his leadership.
Sanctions make things a little bit worse, and they make Maduro's claims that outside forces are to blame for Venezuela's problems seem more convincing. (Sanctions have the same propaganda effect in North Korea).
But in any case, it is pretty clear that the Venezuelan government's mismanagement of the economy has been the primary factor for almost 20 years: Chavez was first elected in 1999 and the problems began under his leadership.
The economy is predominantly private: it is the sanctions hurting the economy. I refuse to defend Maduro, but he is the peoples’ choice. Yes there are anti-Maduro rallies, but there are also pro-Maduro rallies the media conveniently ignores.
Meanwhile, the idea that the US could help without putting someone right wing in place that happens to benefit the supply of fuel against the interests of the people of Venezuela like Guaidó is absurd.
If you want to help the people of Venezuela, end sanctions. This is an economic siege and we are seeing the consequences.
Meanwhile, the idea that the US could help without putting someone right wing in place that happens to benefit the supply of fuel against the interests of the people of Venezuela like Guaidó is absurd.
If you want to help the people of Venezuela, end sanctions. This is an economic siege and we are seeing the consequences.
The economy was destroyed before the sanctions started.
He isn't. He assumed presidency in violation of the country's constitutional procedure.
You should also read up on that election. IIRC, he was on the ballot 10 times or so out of 20-something options (a few also had the same person as a candidate, but none nearly as much as Maduro).
You should also read up on that election. IIRC, he was on the ballot 10 times or so out of 20-something options (a few also had the same person as a candidate, but none nearly as much as Maduro).
Here's a different view:
https://economics21.org/how-socialism-destroyed-venezuela
That is blatantly from a capitalist think tank.
The US is practicing the geopolitical equivalent of "stop hitting yourself."
You are seriously misinformed. Serious issues (crazy inflation) started years before the sanctions.
1. What does this have to do with Hacker News
2. Everything but the US point of view seems to have been flagged here. What is the goal of having comments if there is no discussion.
2. Everything but the US point of view seems to have been flagged here. What is the goal of having comments if there is no discussion.