Ask HN: Linux laptop with MacBook-like build quality
Am I just looking in the wrong places, or is it still really hard to buy a Linux laptop with MacBook-like build quality? Are you running a Linux laptop? Where did you get it?
91 comments
MacBook Pro 2015. I've used ArchLinux on this with no issues. Used a 2013 MacBook Air before that, same OS (I actually used `ssh | dd` to just copy the image, rather than reinstall anything).
The MBA needed non-kernel driver (which was a breeze to install anyway). The MBP uses an in-kernel one, so no issue there.
It doesn't get more MacBook-like than that. :P
The MBA needed non-kernel driver (which was a breeze to install anyway). The MBP uses an in-kernel one, so no issue there.
It doesn't get more MacBook-like than that. :P
Oh man, piping dd through ssh! This brings back a fond memory: I was learning Unix at the time, but never used pipes for anything serious (cat | grep, not much more). I had to clone a machine at my internship; all the Windows guys used some specific tools for that, but this was a Linux box, so their tools wouldn't work. When I had the idea of piping dd through ssh, I thought I was so clever! I was really impressed that it actually worked, too. That's when I realized the power of the Unix philosophy.
Thats a good idea- I do have an old Air kicking around, but it seems a shame to lose a mac in order to gain a Linux. In any case I would like something new and purpose built.
Macs are unstable and lack of some features under Linux. Read about compatibility before putting any distro on it.
That's the genius of going with ArchLinux - everything is unstable :)
I guess dd is convenient if you want to keep the same partitions, but it's not generally necessary to do an exact bit copy to copy a Linux setup. You can use rsync or cp to copy, and then run update-grub on the target to make it bootable.
shh | dd? How does that work? Please say more.
Boot both machines via usb†, start ssh server on one
Depending on where the ssh server is (source or target):
Depending on where the ssh server is (source or target):
dd if=/dev/sda | ssh -C 1.2.3.4 dd of=/dev/sda
ssh -C 1.2.3.4 dd if=/dev/sda | dd of=/dev/sda
I presume, something like...
ssh old_mac "dd if=/dev/sda" | dd of=/dev/sdaDell 5520 (http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...). I bought one for work earlier this year and liked it so much I bought a second for home. Dual Xeons, 32GB ram, 4k display, great battery life, and a body design which feels decidedly mac-like, yet different. In fact, I actually prefer the tactile feel of the 5520.
The only real problems I have is the touchpad (currently tweaking synclient to get it just right) interfering while typing occasionally, and the completely crappy experience with the Thunderbolt docking station (it rarely goes perfectly when docking/undocking, but even if it does, sometimes the displays refuse to wake up while docked).
All that said, I really dig it. I've had two macbooks in the past, and can honestly say this machine is a FAR better experience and much more cost effective.
The only real problems I have is the touchpad (currently tweaking synclient to get it just right) interfering while typing occasionally, and the completely crappy experience with the Thunderbolt docking station (it rarely goes perfectly when docking/undocking, but even if it does, sometimes the displays refuse to wake up while docked).
All that said, I really dig it. I've had two macbooks in the past, and can honestly say this machine is a FAR better experience and much more cost effective.
You can disable the touchpad while typing, it's much nicer that way IMO.
Well, there are two contenders in this space (based on the information I've gathered over time) and those are the Dell XPS 13, and the Thinkpad X1 Carbon.
You can also look into HP as they've been known for being quite linux friendly.
Hope this helps.
The Thinkpad X1 Carbon is an astonishingly good machine
I have a X1 Carbon 5th generation with Ubuntu 17.04.
I'm very satisfied, the installation was easy, everything is working correctly, apart the fingerprint reader but biometric is a joke so no big loss.
The biggest problem with this machine is the fan system, it's configured at a pretty conservative temperature and when the fan start, it does a 1-2 seconds at almost full speed which is noisy.
The ports are just right for me, an hdmi port, two usb-3 and two usb-c which will make my life so much better when I will buy this screen/usb-c dock: http://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/258B6QUEB_00/brilliance-lcd-mon.... With an unique cable I will have everything I need when working from my desk: power, video, audio, ethernet, keyboard and mouse!
I'm very satisfied, the installation was easy, everything is working correctly, apart the fingerprint reader but biometric is a joke so no big loss.
The biggest problem with this machine is the fan system, it's configured at a pretty conservative temperature and when the fan start, it does a 1-2 seconds at almost full speed which is noisy.
The ports are just right for me, an hdmi port, two usb-3 and two usb-c which will make my life so much better when I will buy this screen/usb-c dock: http://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/258B6QUEB_00/brilliance-lcd-mon.... With an unique cable I will have everything I need when working from my desk: power, video, audio, ethernet, keyboard and mouse!
"Biometric is a joke"
Speak for yourself because fingerprint sensor on my smartphone has changed the way I use it. Don't call the whole field of tech useless because Lenovo chooses to cheap out on their components.
Speak for yourself because fingerprint sensor on my smartphone has changed the way I use it. Don't call the whole field of tech useless because Lenovo chooses to cheap out on their components.
I believe that comment is in reference to the fact that biometrics authentication is not as secure as folks would think. For example a printed copy of a fingerprint is likely sufficient to bypass it.
Of course there's the balance of security and convenience.
Of course there's the balance of security and convenience.
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I run Linux on a slightly modified Chromebook. It seems solid to me, but I never owned a MBP.
It has all of the things I care about:
- 1080p IPS display (13.3" screen)
- SSD
- 4GB of RAM
- Fast enough to handle real work loads (lots of browser tabs, running large Rails apps in Docker, streaming music, etc.)
- SD card and USB ports
The whole thing was $350 USD and it's under 3 pounds.
Details are at: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/transform-a-toshiba-chromeboo...
It has all of the things I care about:
- 1080p IPS display (13.3" screen)
- SSD
- 4GB of RAM
- Fast enough to handle real work loads (lots of browser tabs, running large Rails apps in Docker, streaming music, etc.)
- SD card and USB ports
The whole thing was $350 USD and it's under 3 pounds.
Details are at: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/transform-a-toshiba-chromeboo...
I run ChromeOS on an unmodified Chromebook, primarily for security reasons. With the situation as it is on the net, I feel more comfortable that way. Slightly newer machine, so the specs are higher (m5 CPU, 8GB of ram... still 1080p screen.)
That doesn't mean it's only usable for browsing, though. It's actually a surprisingly powerful device. I'm on the dev channel, which although occasionally buggy, also improves integration with Android a bit. It's got:
- F.lux/redshift equivalent: Night mode. It's built in, but only in dev for now.
- General Linux stuff: Termux. That's a linux-distro-as-android-app. Debian-based.
- Remote shell: SSH-in-a-window-or-tab, mosh. Or Termux.
- Remote desktop: Well, VNC, but there are tons of options here.
- Video player: mpv-android. Much better than the built-in player.
- Writing: Aint, or Google Drive. The latter does work quite well offline, the former is a good bit faster though.
- Development... Termux comes with the usual suspects; python, clang, node.js and so on all work. Can't say I've taken advantage, but it's nice to know that it's there if I need it.
All of that without flipping the development switch on the chromebook. About the only thing I'm missing is graphics support for Termux, but my needs are simple, and Emacs runs as well in a terminal as in a window.
That doesn't mean it's only usable for browsing, though. It's actually a surprisingly powerful device. I'm on the dev channel, which although occasionally buggy, also improves integration with Android a bit. It's got:
- F.lux/redshift equivalent: Night mode. It's built in, but only in dev for now.
- General Linux stuff: Termux. That's a linux-distro-as-android-app. Debian-based.
- Remote shell: SSH-in-a-window-or-tab, mosh. Or Termux.
- Remote desktop: Well, VNC, but there are tons of options here.
- Video player: mpv-android. Much better than the built-in player.
- Writing: Aint, or Google Drive. The latter does work quite well offline, the former is a good bit faster though.
- Development... Termux comes with the usual suspects; python, clang, node.js and so on all work. Can't say I've taken advantage, but it's nice to know that it's there if I need it.
All of that without flipping the development switch on the chromebook. About the only thing I'm missing is graphics support for Termux, but my needs are simple, and Emacs runs as well in a terminal as in a window.
The low-res and low amount of RAM make it a completely different league compared to an MBP. Not sure which chromebook you have, buy they also tend to have quite smaller SSDs.
Generally, chromebooks are modern netbooks (not saying that's a bad thing, just different), and not really comparable to an MBP.
Generally, chromebooks are modern netbooks (not saying that's a bad thing, just different), and not really comparable to an MBP.
You can upgrade the SSDs on them to whatever you need (not all of them, but just the models that have a pluggable SSD card). It was $50 for 128GB, but you can go much higher.
Also, the resolution is really nice. 1080p on a 13" machine is plenty of PPI.
Sure a MBP has retina, but at the end of the day you're probably running a 13" MBP at 1680x1050 which gives you less screen real estate than the Chromebook. The only difference is, things will be liquid smooth looking.
Also, the resolution is really nice. 1080p on a 13" machine is plenty of PPI.
Sure a MBP has retina, but at the end of the day you're probably running a 13" MBP at 1680x1050 which gives you less screen real estate than the Chromebook. The only difference is, things will be liquid smooth looking.
That's a great guide, thanks! When I went through the process a few years ago, it would have been really nice to have. Plus GalliumOS wasn't around then.
No problem. It was a fun experience to set it all up. I am still using the machine a lot today. I wrote that guide almost 1 year ago to this day.
I don't think I would have tried it without GalliumOS. It's surprisingly polished.
I don't think I would have tried it without GalliumOS. It's surprisingly polished.
My mbp has 2560x1600 screen, effectively making 1080p quite bad in comparison.
This is an unfair comparison. macOS doesn't run at that resolution out of the box. Your max effective resolution is 1680x1050. Even a 15" rMBP has a max effective resolution of 1920x1200. So, 1080p is plenty competitive for dev work. Now, if all you care about is the smoothness of HiDPI, then your point is valid, but most of us care more about how much code we can fit on screen than how smooth the font looks.
I had 4k screens on < 14" laptops and I prefer 1080p. Pixel density is enough for my eyes, no scaling issues and battery runs longer.
If a high-res screen is critical, check out the HP Chromebook 13 G1 which has a 3200x1800 screen. You can find the 8GB RAM model for around $400 refurbished. Comes with ChromeOS but you can also install Linux distros via Crouton.
Dell XPS13 with a high-res screen
Works flawless under Fedora 25. Plus I even get the firmware updates presented "through Gnome".
Build quality is very nice, although it's no full aluminium unibody
Works flawless under Fedora 25. Plus I even get the firmware updates presented "through Gnome".
Build quality is very nice, although it's no full aluminium unibody
I'm running this setup, and only found out today about this feature! I was looking into the i7 hyperthreading bug, and I'm looking forward to receiving the BIOS update automagically.
Have you run into any software that doesn't scale as it should on your screen? Or do you have settings to work around that?
I run Arch on my XPS13 with no issues.
Xiaomi's notebook. 12.5" or 13.3".
http://www.mi.com/en/mibookair/
http://www.mi.com/en/mibookair/
It looks promising- but does it come with Linux?
Dell Precision 5510 user here, hands down the best computer I ever had.
Great build quality, powerful, sober, beautiful and professional.
I have to agree with the Dell. I have The same model running Fedora 25 with no issues.
All the components work out of the box. I would prefer a slightly better track pad, but it is still probably the best oem Linux laptop you can get.
All the components work out of the box. I would prefer a slightly better track pad, but it is still probably the best oem Linux laptop you can get.
This is nowhere near MacBook-like build quality...
Is that the little brother of the XPS 15 ? Cause I have an XPS 15, and it's been a (expensive) disappointment for the last year.
It's sort of an XPS rebranded for the business market
In my opinion I find that the hard truth is that (1) linux battery performance will always be worse than windows and (2) over time linux will completely destroy your battery.
I've found that using a thinkpad and the TLP program helps 1 by setting some sane defaults and allowing for customization and it helps 2 by allowing the computer to better maintain the battery.
I've found that using a thinkpad and the TLP program helps 1 by setting some sane defaults and allowing for customization and it helps 2 by allowing the computer to better maintain the battery.
References?
First comment is my experience and opinion and TLP can be found at http://linrunner.de/en/tlp/tlp.html
References for 2?
I guess you don't have to use it or trust me :) My comments are just my opinion and are based on my personal observation.
It contradicts my decades-long experience and I would have loved to know whether I have just been lucky. Is there a bug report somewhere? Or just some blog about some more data?
What about trackpad quality. Does any other laptop begin to compare to MacBooks?
yes, is there any recent laptop that have as good as macbook.
The best non-MBP trackpad I've ever used is Dell XPS. Carbon X1 is also up there. Apple is still leading when it comes to trackpads though
I own the 2017 XPS 13 and its trackpad is still horrendous, but not as bad as most windows machines.
OP would be well suited to bringing their mighty mouse along with them.
OP would be well suited to bringing their mighty mouse along with them.
I'll second this. I've been using a MBP for years, but the time for a new laptop came and I was disappointed in the new models. I bought an XPS 13 and the trackpad is close to Mac quality. Caveat, if you like the Mac gestures etc, you won't get those. But the pad itself is quite nice, it feels "right".
If you're into huge laptops, I'm running Linux (Ubuntu) on an ASUS ROG G752VS right now, previously ran on G750 and G751 models. Build quality is solid and the specs are no doubt high end. However, not everything works out-of-the-box and some things have no fix as far as I know. For example with my current G752VS, the microphone port is completely useless as well as the function keys (only volume control Fn keys work). Other fixable issues are brightness control (fixed using xbacklight) and headphones jack (fixed using hdajackretask).
I'm running a fully specc'd Dell XPS 13 with Ubuntu on it, and it's been amazing. My only quibbles are battery life, which is acceptable but not as good as I'd like, and the screen, which is fabulous - but I have the touch screen (I got this option by accident) and the hidpi resolution isn't supported by some software. It's not enough of a problem to limit my workflow so I kept it.
I'd say it's a great laptop, just don't get the touch screen. That'd probably help with the battery life as well.
I'd say it's a great laptop, just don't get the touch screen. That'd probably help with the battery life as well.
I bought a 'shell' of a Thinkpad X220 on eBay for ~£66 ($85) and then bought an SSD, 8GB RAM, Wifi module, 9-cell battery.
All in, about £120 with some smart shopping.
Replacement parts (such as a palm-rest from dropping it off the sofa) cost a few quid, and that's if you manage to absolutely deck the thing.
It's happily chugging away with Debian, all components work OOTB.
Got to recommend a used Thinkpad, and advise checking out the Thinkpad subreddit, they've got some great advice on buying - not all Thinkpads are alike.
Replacement parts (such as a palm-rest from dropping it off the sofa) cost a few quid, and that's if you manage to absolutely deck the thing.
It's happily chugging away with Debian, all components work OOTB.
Got to recommend a used Thinkpad, and advise checking out the Thinkpad subreddit, they've got some great advice on buying - not all Thinkpads are alike.
Seconding this. I paid closer to $700 for my Thinkpad X230 in 2011 and it's still going strong with Arch Linux. Not much of a gaming laptop, but it's been very solid fox nearly six years now.
I have one too. My only complaint is the track pad is way too sensitive. I am constantly nudging it with my palm.
I use a tuxedo infinity since 1 1/2 years and couldn't be happier. https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Noteboo...
Dell XPS 13, build quality is great, next day on-site service is unbeatable.
Love the build quality, feels very portable; unfortunately the trackpad lets it down. Are there any laptops with comparable trackpads to an MBP?
i use archlinux on my mbp (and have been using for the past 3y) and i have no issues other than having to install a custom wifi driver.
how well does linux work on it?
I'm running Arch and i3 on mine... Works beautifully.
I seem to get good battery life too, as I've been pretty selective about what I installed. Powertop takes care of the rest. The trackpad perhaps isn't as nice as my workhorse MBA, but just about everything I use regularly has some sort of Vim mode, so my fingers are hardly ever off the keys.
Dell do Linux edition that ships with Ubuntu.
So full compatibility.
So full compatibility.
I'm a fan of the Thinkpads, especially for Linux. Lenovo maintains a certification list of models that are certified under Ubuntu and RedHat. Note, though, that not all Thinkpads have the same chassis materials. Here is a list of the materials for various 2017 models: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/6bvlb9/2017_think...
Note that the T470 line is built with magnesium, and the X1 Carbon / Yoga have a lot of carbon fiber parts. Both make for a high quality feel.
Note that the T470 line is built with magnesium, and the X1 Carbon / Yoga have a lot of carbon fiber parts. Both make for a high quality feel.
I dislike how their website makes you pay the Microsoft tax (no way to choose "no operating system"). Is there a way to customize it to not have to pay for Windows?
X1 Carbon series is awesome and runs linux/gnome3 flawlessly.
For build quality I like my Razer Blade (late 2016 build), but support is not perfect out of the box. I'm running Linux Mint 18.1. The WiFi was not supported by the live disc, but works after install. Switching between the NVidia and Intel graphics has been a problem that I haven't yet resolved.
The pros are a quad core i7, NVidia 1060, a better keyboard than MBP (my opinion), 16gb RAM, option of 4K glossy or 1080p flat panel. I chose the 1080p so I don't have glare.
The pros are a quad core i7, NVidia 1060, a better keyboard than MBP (my opinion), 16gb RAM, option of 4K glossy or 1080p flat panel. I chose the 1080p so I don't have glare.
I like the Razer Blades, but it is the only laptop I've ever had shutdown from overheating. Have you had any issues with cooling?
I haven't had any cooling issues yet. I accidentally put it in my laptop bag when it was running and I thought it had gone to sleep. It was exceptionally hot when I pulled it out, but I powered it off to cool.
I heard the Razer Blade was flaky.
Mine has been really solid. I use it for work and side projects right now.
Switching video cards has been my biggest issue. The Nvidia sucks battery so there are times I want to switch to the integrated Intel. The switch works, but switching back hangs the machine. It happens in the logout or shutdown part of switching video and the login (MDM on mint) never loads. It doesn't matter which card I switch to or from, just the second swap every time. Mint 18.2 is using LightDM which I'm hoping will work better, but I haven't tried yet.
Switching video cards has been my biggest issue. The Nvidia sucks battery so there are times I want to switch to the integrated Intel. The switch works, but switching back hangs the machine. It happens in the logout or shutdown part of switching video and the login (MDM on mint) never loads. It doesn't matter which card I switch to or from, just the second swap every time. Mint 18.2 is using LightDM which I'm hoping will work better, but I haven't tried yet.
I don't own one but what about a purism laptop? https://puri.sm/
I've been using Lenovo Thinkpads. Not the prettiest laptop but well built, military spec and I've never had an issue running Linux on any Thinkpad I've owned. Currently have a Thinkpad L430 which I got refurbished for $300 on ebay. Used to have Debian on it, now I'm running kubuntu 17.04 with no issues.
I have the new HP envy model, runs Ubuntu 17.04 perfectly out of the box. Even sound and wifi works, scaling of the hidpi screen works perfectly too. Really recommend if you want fast, thin, mac quality laptop for an affordable price. I got mine for 745€ on the HP store for the i5, 8gb,256gb ssd.
Dell XPS 13 also has great build quality.
I just got a Galago Pro from system76. It's a really nice laptop with a solid aluminum build. Not as slick as a MacBook, but has better specs and is much more repairable as well as being a lot less expensive.
Running Debian on a Thinkpad X1 Carbon (5th gen). Everything except fingerprint reader works smoothly out of the box, couldn't be happier with it.
My current trick is to limit my search to "gaming laptops" because gamers are picky as hell when it comes to components.
Gamer laptops tend to be very overpowered video-wise, and have much poorer battery durations. Either that, or they're very big and clunky.
Yeah, the Clevo I got from Mythlogic about 3 years ago is like that--it's basically a desktop machine squashed into a small package. Which means it's a little heavier, runs hotter, not great battery life (but I rarely take it anywhere I can't plug in, so it's not a big deal really). But it's quite solid and fast. Don't know what of their current offerings would be more Macbook-like.
Did anyone try this yet: http://kde.slimbook.es
I ran Ubuntu variants on a Samsung Book 9 (now the Ativ Book line) for about 5 years. Worked pretty well.
Check out System76 https://system76.com/laptops
They are not even close to MB quality and they are not worth it. They are also making questionable decisions regarding supported OS. Apparently they are going away from Ubuntu and wants to fork Ubuntu with Unity 7.
AFAIK, they intend to continue to offer Ubuntu as a choice. Their hardware is vastly superior to the garbage that is MB.
No, they are buildin Pop! OS https://system76.com/pop
About the quality. If you don't believe me about S76 quality please read this https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/48y2db/system76_lapt... maybe that will change your mind. MBs are not perfect (non laptops are) bud they are so damn close (depends on what you need). If you want solid laptop you should really look mostly in to MB, Thinkpad series and XPS series, depends on your requirements (wants look and HD speeds? take MB, wants upgrade your laptop in the future? take Thinkpad or XPS)
About the quality. If you don't believe me about S76 quality please read this https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/48y2db/system76_lapt... maybe that will change your mind. MBs are not perfect (non laptops are) bud they are so damn close (depends on what you need). If you want solid laptop you should really look mostly in to MB, Thinkpad series and XPS series, depends on your requirements (wants look and HD speeds? take MB, wants upgrade your laptop in the future? take Thinkpad or XPS)
Microsoft Surface Laptop