Ask HN: Have you been infected by Covid-19? What is it like?
Might be useful to provide some information about existing conditions you may have so that we can get a picture of what symptoms to watch for beyond the "fever and difficulty to breathe" described by most sources.
200 comments
I'm a retired programmer who does ride sharing in Silicon Valley. I often pick up people at the San Jose airport. Sometimes they are coming in from China or Seattle. I live in a Chinese neighborhood. I gave a woman who couldn't breath a ride to the emergency room. When I got sick in February, I figured it was the flu, but now realize it was probably Covid-19 based on symptoms. I recovered nicely and have been quarantining myself just in case.
It's like the flu with the added difference that it makes breathing more difficult. Also difficulty swallowing. It was more annoying than anything, not really that bad. I don't have any health problems, but if I did have breathing issues, I imagine it might be very problematic.
It's like the flu with the added difference that it makes breathing more difficult. Also difficulty swallowing. It was more annoying than anything, not really that bad. I don't have any health problems, but if I did have breathing issues, I imagine it might be very problematic.
> It's like the flu with the added difference that it makes breathing more difficult. Also difficulty swallowing. It was more annoying than anything, not really that bad.
I had that as well for 3 weeks after being on an event with known covid-19 cases, feels very different from the flu. I asked if they wanted to diagnose me but I didn't fit their profile (being on the same event doesn't count as close contact), so I've self quarantined as well just in case.
I had that as well for 3 weeks after being on an event with known covid-19 cases, feels very different from the flu. I asked if they wanted to diagnose me but I didn't fit their profile (being on the same event doesn't count as close contact), so I've self quarantined as well just in case.
It's interesting to read just how differently suspected cases are being handled across countries.
In Singapore once a case was/is discovered, an intense contact tracing effort begins to identify and quarantine everyone who might be infected, to contain the spread.
If you haven't, it might be useful to ring up healthcare workers and people you've met and let them know.
In Singapore once a case was/is discovered, an intense contact tracing effort begins to identify and quarantine everyone who might be infected, to contain the spread.
If you haven't, it might be useful to ring up healthcare workers and people you've met and let them know.
Oh yea they have stopped doing that here just about 4 days ago (Northern California) because there are too many community cases and the plan is to move to phase 2 (containment is now mitigation).
Singapore has a truly excellent infectious disease program.
Singapore has a truly excellent infectious disease program.
Thanks for sharing. Did you take any medication to ease the symptoms?
No, I don't like taking over the counter meds. The main thing is just get rest and try not to aggravate the coughing, which was a somewhat painful. I quit smoking last year, thank goodness. Chicken Noodle soup was really good for my sore throat and trouble swallowing.
From what I've read sore throat is relatively rare as a symptom of covid-19:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-sympto...
Notably, the COVID-19 infection rarely seems to cause a runny nose, sneezing, or sore throat (these symptoms have been observed in only about 5% of patients).
That doesn't mean you didn't have it, of course, but does suggest it might have just been a cold.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-sympto...
Notably, the COVID-19 infection rarely seems to cause a runny nose, sneezing, or sore throat (these symptoms have been observed in only about 5% of patients).
That doesn't mean you didn't have it, of course, but does suggest it might have just been a cold.
Doesn't dry cough imply sore throat (ie you cough since your throat is sore and irritated)? So people having a cough wont also mention that their throat is sore since it is unnecessary information?
Edit: The way I experience is is that there is a constant tickle in my throat. It sometimes get so strong that I can't hold back a cough but most of the time it just stays a tickle. I call that sore throat, when I got it initially it surprised me and I got a cough attack but after that I've been able to suppress it and not cough for days.
Edit: The way I experience is is that there is a constant tickle in my throat. It sometimes get so strong that I can't hold back a cough but most of the time it just stays a tickle. I call that sore throat, when I got it initially it surprised me and I got a cough attack but after that I've been able to suppress it and not cough for days.
> ie you cough since your throat is sore and irritated
The cough is probably because of lung issues. Apparently sore throat is only a symptom in 1/6th of cases but the dry cough is present in 2/3rd. There's also sputum in 1/3rd of cases, that's lungs / trachea mucus.
The cough is probably because of lung issues. Apparently sore throat is only a symptom in 1/6th of cases but the dry cough is present in 2/3rd. There's also sputum in 1/3rd of cases, that's lungs / trachea mucus.
Not in my case. I often get a very annoying dry cough from common colds, but my throat is perfectly fine. The irritation starts deeper, and it’s not pain, just irritation which triggers cough.
I guess some people might confuse them? I mean nobody has properly defined what "sore throat" means to me. If it hurts for me deep down int he windpipe I take it as it is still my throat, and sore includes being irritated and not just pain. Like now for example, I'd say I have a sore throat even though I don't feel any pain and I only feel it deep down my windpipe and not at all in the food part of the throat.
No, every cold I have ever had involved nasal congestion and runny nose. There was none for me. At the time, I remember thinking that it was unlike anything I had experienced before, which later led me to conclude it was Covid-19.
Would you mind sharing your age?
I'm 62 and very healthy according to my recent physical. No drinking, drugging or smoking.
Smoking is a very big indicator for having extra complications with diseases like these, you will need every bit of lung capacity that you've got.
I don't think I've ever heard the term drugging, but I love it.
Definitely a Boomer word... my Mom would say it when I was growing up.
Have 4 family members that have been tested positive for COVID-19 in Austria:
- Male (56), no symptoms except weak voice
- Female (55), no symptoms
- Male (80), light fever (37,7C), weak voice
- Female (81), no symptoms
These cases are all connected, and we have talked with others that seem to have caught the same variant/mutation. None of them does really show symptoms, no hospitalizations, no real fever, and no hard breathing. Hope this is a light variant/mutation, and the situation stays the same for them.
- Male (56), no symptoms except weak voice
- Female (55), no symptoms
- Male (80), light fever (37,7C), weak voice
- Female (81), no symptoms
These cases are all connected, and we have talked with others that seem to have caught the same variant/mutation. None of them does really show symptoms, no hospitalizations, no real fever, and no hard breathing. Hope this is a light variant/mutation, and the situation stays the same for them.
As for some context where these infections came from: There apparently was one "hot spot" in a famous Austrian ski resort, and there specifically in a famous local bar. The official rumor (in German: https://orf.at/#/stories/3157846/) is that the local barkeeper was infected, and infected many tourists that visited this bar, Austrians as well as tourists from abroad, especially Scandinavia.
Male (56) was in this ski resort for a week as well, though not in this particular bar as far as I know.
So it really seems that these measures to keep people at home and close up all "gathering spots" is the right way to tackle this!
Male (56) was in this ski resort for a week as well, though not in this particular bar as far as I know.
So it really seems that these measures to keep people at home and close up all "gathering spots" is the right way to tackle this!
I hope you can update this this in 5 days, 10 days, and 15 days so we can see if/when symptoms change or appear.
Will report back in those intervals, thanks for the idea!
Update: All of my CoV-positive relatives are very well, and Male (80) just had light fever (~38,3 C) for 4 nights straight, but is now fever-free since two days ago (22.03.).
So all of them did neither show symptoms, nor had any health issues, with the exception of Male (80) with light fever.
So all of them did neither show symptoms, nor had any health issues, with the exception of Male (80) with light fever.
Bump
I wish there's a way for people to self-report and self-track their progress if they have the virus/disease. Having real numbers, not the number determined by Xi or Trump or [insert your hated government baffoon here], would be useful.
Sadly something like that would probably have a lot of trolls, and hypochondriacs.
Sadly something like that would probably have a lot of trolls, and hypochondriacs.
This looks quite good: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820...
Is there a significant amount of testing going on in Austria, compared to other countries? I'm suprised that you mention these people were tested without symptoms.
The amount of testing seems to be ramping up, but we also hear reports that results now take up to three days to get back, where we got the results for our tests (which happened on Wednesday and Thursday) on the next day.
As for symptoms: Male (56) fought quite hard to get one, as he had long direct contact with a positive-tested person. Male (80) got one because of "risk group" (age) and symptoms (light fever).
As for symptoms: Male (56) fought quite hard to get one, as he had long direct contact with a positive-tested person. Male (80) got one because of "risk group" (age) and symptoms (light fever).
I read that here in the Netherlands the testing capacity is limited by a shortage of little plastic slabs that hold ~90 test samples at a time. One tactic to increase capacity is to not test the samples until the slab is full, which also delays test results.
14.03.2020, 15:00
Tests: 7.467
Confirmed: 655
recovered: 6
dead: 1
Austria has approx. 8 Mio inhabitants
official source: https://www.sozialministerium.at/Informationen-zum-Coronavir...
Austria has approx. 8 Mio inhabitants
official source: https://www.sozialministerium.at/Informationen-zum-Coronavir...
My best wishes for your family, i hope they don't experience any worse symptoms! Just out of curiosity, how long is it since they have been tested positive?
They were tested on Wednesday and Thursday, results came back the next morning.
Could it still be the incubation period?
I/we don't really know - there is not much direct information available from doctors/medical personell, as this still feels like everyone is "just learning/reading up on this" and still gathering all the information. Also, local authorities struggle to keep everything in order, meaning they try to contact/call everyone who had contact, but the people on the phone do also not have much information for you. But they do their best, for sure!
We got those phone calls from the local authorities about the test results yesterday/Thursday, and they couldn't really tell us about any medical details or what will happen. Will get in touch (haha!) with our local doctor on Monday, maybe he has some more info on the test results themselves, or if they could still be in the incubation period, what the next steps will be, etc.
For now anybody infected or anybody who was in direct contact for more than 15 minutes with them is in isolation at home, as per official order by the local authorities.
We got those phone calls from the local authorities about the test results yesterday/Thursday, and they couldn't really tell us about any medical details or what will happen. Will get in touch (haha!) with our local doctor on Monday, maybe he has some more info on the test results themselves, or if they could still be in the incubation period, what the next steps will be, etc.
For now anybody infected or anybody who was in direct contact for more than 15 minutes with them is in isolation at home, as per official order by the local authorities.
Quick update on this:
The 4 relatives of mine mentioned that were CoV-positive do show no symptoms. They are under authority-mandated quarantine "until we tell them otherwise/until revoked", but the authorities can not tell us how to get out of this quarantine.
Some people say that two nevative CoV-test results in a 48h-period are necessary, but getting those tests (would be 8 tests for those 4 people) in an 48h period seems to be impossible.
The 4 relatives of mine mentioned that were CoV-positive do show no symptoms. They are under authority-mandated quarantine "until we tell them otherwise/until revoked", but the authorities can not tell us how to get out of this quarantine.
Some people say that two nevative CoV-test results in a 48h-period are necessary, but getting those tests (would be 8 tests for those 4 people) in an 48h period seems to be impossible.
I was not tested although I went to the doctor 4 times over 5 weeks. I went to Milan from Munich in January. Upon returning to Munich, I was hit with a sudden, dry cough. It was noticeably different from anything I had experienced before. I went to bed and woke with a fever of about 102. It lasted for days and I developed a very strange lung issue. On every exhale it sounded like 1000 pop rocks going off in my upper lungs/throat. The sound was loud enough to wake me. I “recovered”, with lasting lung issues for about two weeks. A week later I developed another fever that lasted 3 days. I then had intense night sweats for 2-3 weeks.
If I had it, it would go against many of the models of when it reached Milan. If I didn’t have it, I had some other monster illness that hit the lungs hard.
If I had it, it would go against many of the models of when it reached Milan. If I didn’t have it, I had some other monster illness that hit the lungs hard.
Symptoms as described by WHO:
- https://i.cbc.ca/1.5496615.1584111464!/fileImage/httpImage/i...
- https://sm.mashable.com/mashable_sea/photo/default/coronavir...
- https://i.cbc.ca/1.5496615.1584111464!/fileImage/httpImage/i...
- https://sm.mashable.com/mashable_sea/photo/default/coronavir...
What's alarming and kind of ironic is that COVID 19 has a lack of symptoms compared to the common flu. Aches and pains sometimes for COVID 19 as opposed to aches and pains common for the common flu. Runny nose sometimes for COVID 19 but runny nose common for the Common Flu. Its almost to say if you feel really bad you probably don't have COVID 19 unless you really start having trouble breathing. It's helps me appreciate the need to stay home if I just start getting SOME of the symptoms for the flu like a fever. Don't wait for body aches or a runny nose.
The February report from WHO did not list runny nose as a symptom. If you do have a runny nose, though, that increases the riskiness of hand-nose contact as an infection pathway.
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-chi...
https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/who-chi...
The important thing is that achy muscles don't spread disease (quite the reverse) but coughing does. So people with a recent bad cough should stay at home.
Even if it's only flu people should try and avoid spreading it around at the moment.
Those two tables contradict each other. The first says runny nose is not a symptom of COVID-19, the other says "sometimes".
This just shows how little we know (and/or how much misinformation there is about it), and that a differential diagnosis based on symptoms is basically impossible (at least for a non-expert).
This just shows how little we know (and/or how much misinformation there is about it), and that a differential diagnosis based on symptoms is basically impossible (at least for a non-expert).
it's also quite possible that some people suffer both from covid-19 and the flu or a cold at the same time and the symptoms are being mixed up.
Then maybe this [1] clears things out.
Probably differences in understanding what "sometimes" means.
This shows specific frequency/percentages.
[1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-sympto...
[1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-sympto...
Are there any major differences between this and the annual, regular flu?
It's essentially a somewhat more intense flu with no herd immunity, which means instead of spreading itself nicely throughout the year it comes in at once in a massive exponential spike that blows out the medical system
I'm kinda curious though if this quarantining is also gonna significantly help with any other diseases already out in the wild. Would be nice if we ended up also clearing out some of the regular flu stains too
I'm kinda curious though if this quarantining is also gonna significantly help with any other diseases already out in the wild. Would be nice if we ended up also clearing out some of the regular flu stains too
I seem to recall that during the svine flu, kindergardens and schools emphasized better hygiene (wash hands, hand sanitizer, cough in elbow) - with a (at least anecdotal) dramatic reduction in sick leave. As kids didn't get sick at the same rate, did not infect parents who did not spread it in the work place at the usual rate.
Flu season is already at the tail end so it would be hard to tell. Colds and flu spread in similar ways as CV19 so isolation should help that too.
I read somewhere the rate of colds and flu has fallen in Hong Kong.
Death rate is between 5x-25x higher, hospitalization rate even higher than that. Regular flu has a .01 death rate, Covid is at .08 right now in Korea and like 4% in Italy.
> Regular flu has a .01 death rate, Covid is at .08 right now in Korea and like 4% in Italy.
Dude. You can’t mix units like that. The flu has a 0.095% death rate, S. Korea’s current Covid-19 death rate is 0.7%, and Italy’s rate is around 5%.
You made both the flu and South Korea’s situation out to be ten times worse than they were.
Dude. You can’t mix units like that. The flu has a 0.095% death rate, S. Korea’s current Covid-19 death rate is 0.7%, and Italy’s rate is around 5%.
You made both the flu and South Korea’s situation out to be ten times worse than they were.
Actually think they just forgot the % sign, and added extra zeros to flu and Korea numbers. I think they meant to say 0.1% and 0.8%, which isn’t far off.
It’s worth noting Italy’s much higher death rate is because the hospitals are full, and this is likely to happen in other countries soon. The proportion of Covid-19 patients that require intubation is much higher than that of flu.
Several other European countries and the US are on roughly the same infection rate trajectory as Italy, just a few weeks behind. Unless they significantly slow it down, it seems likely their health systems will be overwhelmed too, and their death rates could start looking more like Italy’s.
Several other European countries and the US are on roughly the same infection rate trajectory as Italy, just a few weeks behind. Unless they significantly slow it down, it seems likely their health systems will be overwhelmed too, and their death rates could start looking more like Italy’s.
Italy is probably also just not testing people who don't have serious symptoms. They've been hovering around a 15% positive rate on tests, about half of which have to be hospitalized, which is a lot compared to other countries.
In addition to that, I read that there are more old people in Italy too -- another factor contributing to the higher numbers there.
Apparently Switzerland surpassed other countries and is now #2 for no of cases per million people...
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
It might be worth taking a look on Twitter. This doctor is 'live' tweeting his experience with the disease including lung scans [1]. Based on some other first hand experiences I've read on the Twitter/News people's experience varies wildly. Some people say it's not much worse than the flu. On the otherhand I saw a tweet from one doctor who had it claim it was worse than child birth so seems like the variation in experience can be massive.
[1] https://twitter.com/yaletung
[1] https://twitter.com/yaletung
>people's experience varies wildly
Here's an article about two Chinese women with COVID-19, with very different outcomes.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/13/world/asia/co...
Here's an article about two Chinese women with COVID-19, with very different outcomes.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/13/world/asia/co...
What a heart wrenching article. When it's just numbers people can brush it off, but when it has a human face and story, I think that's when it really hits most people. More so when it affects closed ones too.
I've been repeating this to my students: don't panic, but be cautious.
I've been repeating this to my students: don't panic, but be cautious.
Doctors' reports seem more trustworthy than patient social media because patient social media is likely to have a stronger selection bias. If you're in excruciating pain (or just part of an older demographic) you're less likely to be tweeting about it than if you have a mild cough, so expect harsher symptoms to be underrepresented.
A recurring symptom mentioned here is difficulty breathing. That's terrible and can easily cause harmful feedback loop. I'm mid-30s so I will try to defer medicinal interaction for as long as possible. To self-assess the seriousness of breathing issues I intend to make us of a pulsoxymeter.
Is there somebody here who could suggest a rule set for when to seek help?
Something like: seek help if SpO2
- between 85% and 90% for more than 48 hours
- between 80% and 85% for more than 24 hours
- below 80% immediately
(actually I do feel mildly ill and as if breathing is a little bit more uncomfortable than usual - but according to my pulsoxymeter SpO2 is at healthy 98% with a pulse around 60 bpm. so everything seems perfectly fine)
Is there somebody here who could suggest a rule set for when to seek help?
Something like: seek help if SpO2
- between 85% and 90% for more than 48 hours
- between 80% and 85% for more than 24 hours
- below 80% immediately
(actually I do feel mildly ill and as if breathing is a little bit more uncomfortable than usual - but according to my pulsoxymeter SpO2 is at healthy 98% with a pulse around 60 bpm. so everything seems perfectly fine)
I am an EMR in California and provide (emergency) medical care relatively frequently.
"To self-assess the seriousness of breathing issues I intend to make us of a pulsoxymeter."
I like the idea of owning a pulse oximeter and have them in all of my first aid kits. However, I think of them as providing immediate information about an acute breathing problem.
Your SpO2 should be around 98 always. If you go below 95, something is really wrong and requires immediate attention. You will be displaying signs of breathing difficulty and you're not going to see if it lasts 24 or 48 hours.
If you are not tremendously affected by a cold/flu/coronavirus, I would expect you to have a ~98 SpO2 throughout, even if you feel terrible and perhaps feel your breathing is a bit labored.
" ... below 80% immediately ..."
Just to put this in perspective, all else being equal, you're not going to be coherent or functional in any way below 80%. I would personally call 911 if I saw an otherwise normal person below 90 and I would be very concerned if I saw readings below 95 - especially if the trendline was down ...
"To self-assess the seriousness of breathing issues I intend to make us of a pulsoxymeter."
I like the idea of owning a pulse oximeter and have them in all of my first aid kits. However, I think of them as providing immediate information about an acute breathing problem.
Your SpO2 should be around 98 always. If you go below 95, something is really wrong and requires immediate attention. You will be displaying signs of breathing difficulty and you're not going to see if it lasts 24 or 48 hours.
If you are not tremendously affected by a cold/flu/coronavirus, I would expect you to have a ~98 SpO2 throughout, even if you feel terrible and perhaps feel your breathing is a bit labored.
" ... below 80% immediately ..."
Just to put this in perspective, all else being equal, you're not going to be coherent or functional in any way below 80%. I would personally call 911 if I saw an otherwise normal person below 90 and I would be very concerned if I saw readings below 95 - especially if the trendline was down ...
thanks for putting things into perspective.
As a reminder, some Samsung phones have a pulsoxymeter built in and you can measure yourself in seconds.
As per this reference [1] (that also has a lot of other useful info and links)
> If you think you’ll fret a lot about whether you need to go the hospital, get a pulse oximeter ($20 on Amazon). Readings consistently below 90-94% are pretty bad and mean you should seek immediate treatment.
[1]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/02/coronavirus-links-spec...
> If you think you’ll fret a lot about whether you need to go the hospital, get a pulse oximeter ($20 on Amazon). Readings consistently below 90-94% are pretty bad and mean you should seek immediate treatment.
[1]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/02/coronavirus-links-spec...
i dont think you can live with Spo2 at 85
One Finnish entrepreneur describes his so far mild infection: https://perjantaikokki.fi/2020/03/14/greetings-from-a-corona...
I hesitate to post this because I haven’t been tested, but I can’t help but wonder. I live in Tokyo. 3 weeks ago I woke up in the middle of the night vomiting, and had a ~38.5C (101F) fever for 2 days. Muscle aches, very fatigued etc, but no real breathing problems - basically a tougher-than-average flu. I went to the doctor and tested negative for influenza. The policy at the time in Japan was not to test for COVID-19 unless the patient had a cough. My wife came down with the same symptoms a couple of days later and had an intermittent 38~9C (102F) fever for three days, and also tested negative for influenza (we both have flu shots every year, if that’s relevant). A couple of weeks later we (plus 2yo child) all have cold-like symptoms and a cough, and are keeping ourselves isolated. It isn’t possible to get tested now unless we have a fever, so who knows. Our child has not had a fever at all and seems quite cheerful apart from a runny nose and cough. 3 weeks ago I would have had to have been quite unlucky to catch it which makes me wonder if I’m just a hypochondriac, but the timing makes me wonder. We’re all on the mend and I don’t feel there’s any need to tie up medical resources, but it would be nice to know for sure if we have / had it. Again I hesitate to write this because I don’t wish to add to the mountain of misinformation out there, but at the same time I’d be very interested to learn if anyone has had a similar experience.
‘I was stupidly overconfident’: a South Korean coronavirus survivor’s tale
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/health-environment/article/30...
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/health-environment/article/30...
I have had a fever for a week and difficulty breathing. I have asked my doctor about getting tested for Covid19 and they have declined to test me because I don't meet the critical criteria: age > 60, around large groups of people, etc.
I run in circles with someone that returned from Italy and has been confirmed to have Covid19. I'm assuming I have it.
The fever isn't so bad for me but there have been a few times where I thought I would die from not being able to breath. There is only one thing I did that helped with the breathing but it fits in the old wife's tales category so I wont post it here since I don't want to be mocked for it. We used to the same thing 10 years ago to get my Mother-in-law off the ventilator when they told us she would never get off.
Today is day 6 since the fever started and the fever is gone today, still feeling weak.
I run in circles with someone that returned from Italy and has been confirmed to have Covid19. I'm assuming I have it.
The fever isn't so bad for me but there have been a few times where I thought I would die from not being able to breath. There is only one thing I did that helped with the breathing but it fits in the old wife's tales category so I wont post it here since I don't want to be mocked for it. We used to the same thing 10 years ago to get my Mother-in-law off the ventilator when they told us she would never get off.
Today is day 6 since the fever started and the fever is gone today, still feeling weak.
Some of the old-wives tales were descriptions of things that worked just like a lot of the herbal medicines. We didn't know why they worked so I agree it's hard to call them science. It's also possible it worked for you due to placebo effects, but you describe having a sample size of two! I hope we don't mock people for stating anecdotal evidence. I have seen mocking for statements that clearly contradict evidence (cough-cough flat-earth cough) or when people clearly have confused anecdotal evidence with fact.
I'm curious now what you meant ... maybe it would work for others and if it falls into the category of "can't hurt", why not share it.
NOTE: the coughing above is not a self-diagnosis on my part.
I'm curious now what you meant ... maybe it would work for others and if it falls into the category of "can't hurt", why not share it.
NOTE: the coughing above is not a self-diagnosis on my part.
> We didn't know why they worked so I agree it's hard to call them science.
Science doesn't always tell us why something works, but it may tell us "whether". The theory of whether something works is much easier to understand and test than the theory of why or how.
It may not be rigorous science with good experimental design, that's all.
Science doesn't always tell us why something works, but it may tell us "whether". The theory of whether something works is much easier to understand and test than the theory of why or how.
It may not be rigorous science with good experimental design, that's all.
One could argue that science is about falsifying hypothesis - and terby narrowing in on not just if something works, but how.
But an important part of that process is trying to determine if something works or not.
I'd say doing that well is difficult without at least some theory and hypothesis of how - because of the need to determine significant factors.
To take a silly example, you could take a group of diarrhea patients and serve some copious amounts of green tea, and another group a limited amount of water; you'd probably observere severe dehydration in the group that is served water. But it does not follow that green tea is better than water for treating diarrhea - sufficient hydration is.
But an important part of that process is trying to determine if something works or not.
I'd say doing that well is difficult without at least some theory and hypothesis of how - because of the need to determine significant factors.
To take a silly example, you could take a group of diarrhea patients and serve some copious amounts of green tea, and another group a limited amount of water; you'd probably observere severe dehydration in the group that is served water. But it does not follow that green tea is better than water for treating diarrhea - sufficient hydration is.
What you've described with green tee and water is science, it's just that your conclusions aren't well supported by the evidence.
> One could argue that science is about falsifying hypothesis - and terby narrowing in on not just if something works, but how.
To clarify, are YOU arguing that? Because if you're not arguing that, if you're just playing devil's advocate, then I'm unhappy with the way the conversation is going.
Testing "how" is not a requirement for science. There's been a lot of work on the philosophy of science over the past few centuries which I'm not going to try and summarize here (tl;dr: the idea of "falsifiability" is a bit outdated), but I'm going to copy and paste the first sentence of Wikipedia:
> Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
There's no requirement in science that we understand a mechanism of action.
> One could argue that science is about falsifying hypothesis - and terby narrowing in on not just if something works, but how.
To clarify, are YOU arguing that? Because if you're not arguing that, if you're just playing devil's advocate, then I'm unhappy with the way the conversation is going.
Testing "how" is not a requirement for science. There's been a lot of work on the philosophy of science over the past few centuries which I'm not going to try and summarize here (tl;dr: the idea of "falsifiability" is a bit outdated), but I'm going to copy and paste the first sentence of Wikipedia:
> Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
There's no requirement in science that we understand a mechanism of action.
Your quote literally includes the phrase "testable explanations"?
My point about tea vs water is exactly that having: "a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge" helps with controlling for other factors when setting up and evaluating experiments?
Ed: hm, we may be talking past each other here:
> Testing "how" is not a requirement for science
Indeed, 'testing "how"' isn't really possible, only testing "if". But testing "if" with no idea of "how" is very difficult? (because without an idea of "how" it's hard to even define the "what")
My point about tea vs water is exactly that having: "a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge" helps with controlling for other factors when setting up and evaluating experiments?
Ed: hm, we may be talking past each other here:
> Testing "how" is not a requirement for science
Indeed, 'testing "how"' isn't really possible, only testing "if". But testing "if" with no idea of "how" is very difficult? (because without an idea of "how" it's hard to even define the "what")
> Your quote literally includes the phrase "testable explanations"?
It says "and predictions". That is, both "testable explanations" and "testable predictions" are a part of science.
> Indeed, 'testing "how"' isn't really possible, only testing "if".
This argument is a dead end. If you construct your epistemology in such a fragile way that testing "how" is not possible, then take a closer look at the world you've constructed, you'll find that testing "if" is not possible either.
Any modern philosophy of science has to reconcile with modern epistemology. If you try to construct a good definition for science but use your intuition about what "knowledge" is, then you're only going to discover that you need to go back and refine your understanding of epistemology.
I claim that we can, in fact, test "how".
Testing "how" and testing "whether" are both scientific endeavors.
It says "and predictions". That is, both "testable explanations" and "testable predictions" are a part of science.
> Indeed, 'testing "how"' isn't really possible, only testing "if".
This argument is a dead end. If you construct your epistemology in such a fragile way that testing "how" is not possible, then take a closer look at the world you've constructed, you'll find that testing "if" is not possible either.
Any modern philosophy of science has to reconcile with modern epistemology. If you try to construct a good definition for science but use your intuition about what "knowledge" is, then you're only going to discover that you need to go back and refine your understanding of epistemology.
I claim that we can, in fact, test "how".
Testing "how" and testing "whether" are both scientific endeavors.
OK, I think I see where we talk past each other - I stated:
> One could argue that science is about falsifying hypothesis - and terby narrowing in on not just if something works, but how.
You read that as saying that we can only test how, not if. Now you read my comments as saying we can only test if not how.
I think we're in agreement that they are two sides of the scientific process.
> One could argue that science is about falsifying hypothesis - and terby narrowing in on not just if something works, but how.
You read that as saying that we can only test how, not if. Now you read my comments as saying we can only test if not how.
I think we're in agreement that they are two sides of the scientific process.
> You read that as saying that we can only test how, not if. Now you read my comments as saying we can only test if not how.
The original sentence, "One could argue that..." is poorly worded and confusing. Maybe you could take this opportunity to clarify what you meant.
I'm not really interested in litigating who said what. I'd rather understand what you actually mean, rather than try and attack the wording that you happened to use.
To clarify what I'm saying: Testing "whether" can be science, without testing "how", and vice versa.
The original sentence, "One could argue that..." is poorly worded and confusing. Maybe you could take this opportunity to clarify what you meant.
I'm not really interested in litigating who said what. I'd rather understand what you actually mean, rather than try and attack the wording that you happened to use.
To clarify what I'm saying: Testing "whether" can be science, without testing "how", and vice versa.
> One could argue that science is about falsifying hypothesis - and terby narrowing in on not just if something works, but how.
Testing the "if" is science - but difficult without a framework helping understand "how". Testing only if, in a vacuum, isn't enough - and it is a tool on the path to understanding "how". This allows such things as using statistical models (if one has an idea of distribution, for example) to help refine the "if" tests, and narrow down exactly what your "if" experiment tested.
I don't think you can have science without both, and I think defining a body of theory is the more important aspect.
Testing the "if" is science - but difficult without a framework helping understand "how". Testing only if, in a vacuum, isn't enough - and it is a tool on the path to understanding "how". This allows such things as using statistical models (if one has an idea of distribution, for example) to help refine the "if" tests, and narrow down exactly what your "if" experiment tested.
I don't think you can have science without both, and I think defining a body of theory is the more important aspect.
Honestly there is so much that I disagree with in this comment that I can't write a short reply. Sorry.
I get in discussions about philosophy of science all the time because I am passionate about it. But I am very disappointed because it turns out that other people who are passionate about science and the philosophy of science haven't really done the reading. This discussion is a prime example.
It makes me feel like nothing more than a conduit, copying arguments out of old books and pasting them on the internet.
I get in discussions about philosophy of science all the time because I am passionate about it. But I am very disappointed because it turns out that other people who are passionate about science and the philosophy of science haven't really done the reading. This discussion is a prime example.
It makes me feel like nothing more than a conduit, copying arguments out of old books and pasting them on the internet.
It's been a while since I had philosophy and scientific theory, I'm afraid.
I met skepticism on HN when I said that mega-doses of vitamin C were helping with my hay fever symptoms and was literally insulted on YouTube when I advised to keep water in your mouth while cutting onions to avoid crying.
Why would I care that these 2 things are not peer reviewed by some high level scientists ?
I know it won't be a popular opinion here but there's too much emphasis placed on science nowadays. While science is perfect, scientists aren't, they can make mistakes, they can be bought, and more importantly there's not enough budget to prove everything.
So I'm a pragmatist : if the thing makes sense to me and isn't costly or dangerous to try, I try it.
In fact I whish the placebo effect was much more prevalent. Imagine if you could cure everything with a few drops of fresh squeezed lemon juice in warm water ?
Why would I care that these 2 things are not peer reviewed by some high level scientists ?
I know it won't be a popular opinion here but there's too much emphasis placed on science nowadays. While science is perfect, scientists aren't, they can make mistakes, they can be bought, and more importantly there's not enough budget to prove everything.
So I'm a pragmatist : if the thing makes sense to me and isn't costly or dangerous to try, I try it.
In fact I whish the placebo effect was much more prevalent. Imagine if you could cure everything with a few drops of fresh squeezed lemon juice in warm water ?
> was literally insulted on YouTube when I advised to keep water in your mouth while cutting onions to avoid crying
The reaction is unsurprising. Anyone who has ever cut onions gained an understanding that irritating gas (http://enwp.org/Syn-Propanethial-S-oxide) wafts up into the eyes. The hypothesis that water in the mouth is supposed to help runs counter to intuition.
It affords testing. Devise an experiment and let us know the result.
The reaction is unsurprising. Anyone who has ever cut onions gained an understanding that irritating gas (http://enwp.org/Syn-Propanethial-S-oxide) wafts up into the eyes. The hypothesis that water in the mouth is supposed to help runs counter to intuition.
It affords testing. Devise an experiment and let us know the result.
I don't need to experiment with it, I'm doing it every time I cut onions and I don't cry anymore. It works.
If you want to try, next time you cut onions put some water in your mouth and keep it there until you've finished cutting.
It will get a bad taste, spit it once you're finished.
If you want to try, next time you cut onions put some water in your mouth and keep it there until you've finished cutting.
It will get a bad taste, spit it once you're finished.
I'm always interested in learning what works for others. People need to understand we're all different so what works for one group of people may not work for other groups of people. Modern medicine has only recently begun to realize there may be several things for which a one cure fits all approach doesn't exist.
> there's too much emphasis placed on science
The site rules prevent me from making an appropriate reply.
The site rules prevent me from making an appropriate reply.
“ There is only one thing I did that helped with the breathing but it fits in the old wife's tales category so I wont post it here since I don't want to be mocked for it. ”
Hearing this makes me both mad and sad that you think it will get you downvoted. And who cares if it gets you downvoted? Hearing personal health experiences is extremely valuable. It’s what I missed the most about the internet these days with most conversations moving away from forums and message boards.
Hearing this makes me both mad and sad that you think it will get you downvoted. And who cares if it gets you downvoted? Hearing personal health experiences is extremely valuable. It’s what I missed the most about the internet these days with most conversations moving away from forums and message boards.
Tell me yours and I’ll tell you mine? Old wives tales usually have some science behind them that hasn’t been tested yet. No one is saying they have the magic cure-all.
I make a mixture of turmeric, horseradish, ginger, garlic, habanero, hot onion, and apple cider vinegar. Chop finely or blend and let steep and ferment for as long as you want. Doesn’t go bad. I take shots of it when sick. Actually really good to put in stir fry and stews too.
All of those ingredients have proven health benefits. Doesn’t replace antibiotics or medical treatment but can’t hurt. I’ve noticed it reduces the time I’m sick.
I make a mixture of turmeric, horseradish, ginger, garlic, habanero, hot onion, and apple cider vinegar. Chop finely or blend and let steep and ferment for as long as you want. Doesn’t go bad. I take shots of it when sick. Actually really good to put in stir fry and stews too.
All of those ingredients have proven health benefits. Doesn’t replace antibiotics or medical treatment but can’t hurt. I’ve noticed it reduces the time I’m sick.
On this note about old wives tales, I'm a woman. I've tried every medicine, multiple birth controls, diets, workout and stretch routines to help with period cramps and pain, and I get to try a method and then take what I think helps and adapt for a better test every month until I run out of eggs and here is the bottom line for me at 30 having optimised alot.
Yes drinking water, stretching/really being flexible and fit helps and at the very least needs to start a few days before...
Salmon avocado, iron like steak help with body recovery.
Epsom salt baths help with the cramps as a natural muscle relaxant so does ibuprofen...
It's actually ginger juice, that makes 90% of the pain go away. I bought a $99 breville juicer 8 years ago and lasted me as long. Just got a new one. Three days before I juice ginger with other things
Maybe apple, celery, lemon to help it go down.
Every time I go to the store to get it the cashier's comment they have never seen anyone buy so much ginger in their life, and if it's a woman I tell them my secret. I buy pounds of it and drink probably a quarter gallon the week before.
If you are a woman or have a loved one who suffers from severe period pain, this does amazing things.
That being said, have no idea about respiratory stuff.
An actual Coronavirus story:
I did hear the scientists looking into this said bodies are overreacting into respiratory failure, so maybe it is like many others illnesses potentially about suppressing an extreme over reactionaey autoimmune response.
Someone in my industry got it. 45yr old smoker had to be induced into a coma to avoid acute respiratory failure a couple of weeks ago, after being diagnosed with Coronavirus.
I think the public needs to stress more vulnerable smokers are regardless of age to Coronavirus. Smoking is much more common in China and Italy.
Yes drinking water, stretching/really being flexible and fit helps and at the very least needs to start a few days before...
Salmon avocado, iron like steak help with body recovery.
Epsom salt baths help with the cramps as a natural muscle relaxant so does ibuprofen...
It's actually ginger juice, that makes 90% of the pain go away. I bought a $99 breville juicer 8 years ago and lasted me as long. Just got a new one. Three days before I juice ginger with other things
Maybe apple, celery, lemon to help it go down.
Every time I go to the store to get it the cashier's comment they have never seen anyone buy so much ginger in their life, and if it's a woman I tell them my secret. I buy pounds of it and drink probably a quarter gallon the week before.
If you are a woman or have a loved one who suffers from severe period pain, this does amazing things.
That being said, have no idea about respiratory stuff.
An actual Coronavirus story:
I did hear the scientists looking into this said bodies are overreacting into respiratory failure, so maybe it is like many others illnesses potentially about suppressing an extreme over reactionaey autoimmune response.
Someone in my industry got it. 45yr old smoker had to be induced into a coma to avoid acute respiratory failure a couple of weeks ago, after being diagnosed with Coronavirus.
I think the public needs to stress more vulnerable smokers are regardless of age to Coronavirus. Smoking is much more common in China and Italy.
Since you mentioned steak, have you tried a vegan diet? Dairy and meat contain hormones that might affect you. Neil Barnard has written about that, if you're interested.
Hm, vinegar for preservation does sound like a good idea. I assume it's better for killing anaerob bacteria than eg oil?
(anything that grows in the earth + oil + cool and dark storage - has a potential for growing Clostridium botulinum which can be lethal).
Hm, indeed. I stopped making garlic oil at home, looks like I should invest in some vinegar...
https://www.thespruceeats.com/removing-risk-of-botulism-from...
(anything that grows in the earth + oil + cool and dark storage - has a potential for growing Clostridium botulinum which can be lethal).
Hm, indeed. I stopped making garlic oil at home, looks like I should invest in some vinegar...
https://www.thespruceeats.com/removing-risk-of-botulism-from...
Last time I tried apple cider vinegar the pH was so low it gave me a chemical burn in the back of my throat. It definitely can hurt, so be careful with that stuff.
...are you drinking apple cider vinegar neat from the bottle??
Lol, this. Put a tablespoon in a full cup of water.
One more to add from the old wives’ category: oregano’s potential antiviral properties https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24779581/
I'm also curious about the old-wives tale, you are not claiming it's a scientific fact and if it worked for you, it might work for others.
There is no reason someone mocks you about it, they will be downvoted as it's against HN guidelines.
There is no reason someone mocks you about it, they will be downvoted as it's against HN guidelines.
I would appreciate the advice about the old wives tale, even if I don't after all use it. I promise to upvote every supportive comment and downvote every mocking comment!
Here it is: https://www.amazon.com/Zijainternational-SuperMix-Moringa-Ol...
We forgot about it until I was gasping for air and then my wife remembered and we had some laying around. I could breath again in about 20 minutes. My chest and lungs still hurt until today.
We forgot about it until I was gasping for air and then my wife remembered and we had some laying around. I could breath again in about 20 minutes. My chest and lungs still hurt until today.
Note this user has basically zero HN history and is shilling an expensive product in a classic scammer way. I mean, maybe it's totally innocent! Doesn't look innocent!
I mean, maybe Moringa Oil is amazing (I doubt it). It's available for much cheaper than the listed amazon link: https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/cold-pressed-rwandan-moringa...
I mean, maybe Moringa Oil is amazing (I doubt it). It's available for much cheaper than the listed amazon link: https://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/cold-pressed-rwandan-moringa...
[deleted]
I'm from the region where this plant originates and it's very popular to treat various health conditions. The fruits are consumed in stews and leaves used to make specialized tea to help with things like blood pressure.
The price point on amazon is ridiculous though...makes me want to get in the business of packaging and selling this product in the future (not specific to covid).
The price point on amazon is ridiculous though...makes me want to get in the business of packaging and selling this product in the future (not specific to covid).
Hey, there may be some scientific support to this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3023118/
[deleted]
Glad it worked for you - but it's not exactly obvious to me how it would help, or how you administered it? Especially when you were gasping for air?
Thank you, benrrio. I appreciate your telling us, and as promised I will downvote mockers. You are definitely no scammer.
rhexs(2)
A good strategy in any situation!
I'm really grateful you're getting better. I had a very strong flu two years ago, it was the toughest flu (or any diseases) i ever had. I fall apart and lost conscious three times, the cough was very strong that i wouldn't be able to breathe for a few seconds. It was really terrifying experience, and from what i read it is quite simialr to covid-19 symptoms.
For the throat issue, we use hibiscus (hot) with ginger. It really helps a lot to relief the pain and ease your breathing.
For the throat issue, we use hibiscus (hot) with ginger. It really helps a lot to relief the pain and ease your breathing.
There can be wisdom in old wive’s tales or otherwise home remedies. As someone who knows very little about such things in relation to helping with breathing I would also be interested to hear what worked anecdotally for you.
Glad to hear that your Mother-in-law managed to get off the ventilator despite the odds.
Glad to hear that your Mother-in-law managed to get off the ventilator despite the odds.
> We used to the same thing 10 years ago to get my Mother-in-law off the ventilator when they told us she would never get off.
What if this info helps someone in need?
What if this info helps someone in need?
Old wives tales can often be helpful. At the very least, they will probably be good at soothing symptoms.
The key is to (a) avoid stuff that could be dangerous (eating exotic stuff that may be potentially poisonous), (b) don’t use it as a replacement for actual proven treatments and what your doctor recommends.
The old wives tales I occasionally follow are stuff like having a ginger turmeric tea, something that would probably sell for $7/cup if a coffee shop put it on their menu.
The key is to (a) avoid stuff that could be dangerous (eating exotic stuff that may be potentially poisonous), (b) don’t use it as a replacement for actual proven treatments and what your doctor recommends.
The old wives tales I occasionally follow are stuff like having a ginger turmeric tea, something that would probably sell for $7/cup if a coffee shop put it on their menu.
Nah, I only pay $4.50 for a oat milk turmeric ginger latte. But they are pretty tasty and non caffeinated.
> they have declined to test me because I don't meet the critical criteria: age > 60
What kind of nonsense rule is that? They're intentionally breaking the statistics.
Which country is this, if you don't mind saying?
What kind of nonsense rule is that? They're intentionally breaking the statistics.
Which country is this, if you don't mind saying?
This is definitely happening all over the US.
The reason the counts are so low is the CDC refuses to test anyone.
The reason the counts are so low is the CDC refuses to test anyone.
Not just in the US. In most countries tests are extremely limited so they screen out massively.
And it takes 3-5 days for CDC results to come back. My whole family is in isolation due to potential exposure while we wait to find out if the sick person has cov-19.
Trump Inc gave up on CDC testing week and unleashed the more competent private sector. The first CDC portable test kit was defective making them [re]test at their central lab.
That meme is false and needs to die. Look at testing here [0], from the CDC website [1]. The CDC is just a part of this, and public labs are testing thousands per day right now. Expect this chart to keep going up.
[0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/images/lab-data-gr...
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/test...
[0] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/images/lab-data-gr...
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/test...
The testing capacity simply doesn't exist.
It's a huge failure, but it's not a nonsense rule, it's a result of poor planning and mistakes made weeks ago.
It's a huge failure, but it's not a nonsense rule, it's a result of poor planning and mistakes made weeks ago.
In many cases testing shouldn't actually change the result, either. Suspected patients need to self-isolate, regardless of whether they actually are positive or not. Being positive doesn't necessarily require additional treatment and anyone who is sick enough to need hospitalization will need it whether they are positive or not. The main benefits I see of wider testing are a) better handle on spread of virus, b) despite the above, knowing one is positive could make the patient take self-isolation more seriously ("oh it's just a cold, I'll continue as normal" doesn't bode well).
I don't see much point in using limited resources just to satisfy the curiosity of people who are able to isolate themselves and recover unaided. In fact I had something with COVID-19 symptoms a week ago and I am certainly curious to know if I did have it or not. But I have since recovered and nobody I was with (so far) is sick so there's not a lot to gain by me being tested.
I don't see much point in using limited resources just to satisfy the curiosity of people who are able to isolate themselves and recover unaided. In fact I had something with COVID-19 symptoms a week ago and I am certainly curious to know if I did have it or not. But I have since recovered and nobody I was with (so far) is sick so there's not a lot to gain by me being tested.
Feds have failed. We need to allow the states to determine who can run tests.
Yeah, but won't they at least put you in line if they intend to test? Sounds like the lack of capacity is a good excuse to lower the statistics.
My state is monitoring more people than they are testing:
https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/
I don't know what the decision matrix is, I am just saying that lack of testing capacity is a real part of it.
https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/
I don't know what the decision matrix is, I am just saying that lack of testing capacity is a real part of it.
The testing capacity exists, if you count devices that have (still) not been approved for use. That is the primary nature of of the failure here.
This is a state Senator saying that there isn't enough reagent that is needed to prepare the samples for testing:
https://twitter.com/JeffJacksonNC/status/1238811865481990144
So if that is true, the testing capacity isn't going to be limited just by device approvals. Also need to establish the protocols for other reagents and so on.
https://twitter.com/JeffJacksonNC/status/1238811865481990144
So if that is true, the testing capacity isn't going to be limited just by device approvals. Also need to establish the protocols for other reagents and so on.
Citation please?
Why does it seem like people are using this rapidly spreading deadly virus as an argument for their political views...
Why does it seem like people are using this rapidly spreading deadly virus as an argument for their political views...
That's the reality my country as well, the czech republic
>>>so I wont post it here since I don't want to be mocked for it.
Please tell us. Mockery on here is of no consequence.
Oh, and thanks for posting and good luck.
Please tell us. Mockery on here is of no consequence.
Oh, and thanks for posting and good luck.
Your old wife's tale might safe someones life at best and at worse do nothing, no reason to not say it, no one is going to mock you.
This "community" can be quite toxic and is easily triggered by anything "anecdotal". Typical coping strategy is doing penance as an introduction to it, like "I'm probably going to be down voted for this". This sort of preemptive obedience seems to have a mildly soothing effect on a mob of nerds.
On the other hand ... Why would anybody care about HN karma.
Having said that, I'm also curious and promise I'll upvote him for it. No matter how superstitious it might be.
On the other hand ... Why would anybody care about HN karma.
Having said that, I'm also curious and promise I'll upvote him for it. No matter how superstitious it might be.
[deleted]
> there have been a few times where I thought I would die from not being able to breath
That easily justifies calling an ambulance, even in the present circumstances.
(At least according to the current advice in the UK and Denmark.)
That easily justifies calling an ambulance, even in the present circumstances.
(At least according to the current advice in the UK and Denmark.)
I've never seen so many people begging for anecdotal information on HN. Seems like we are both surprised by that!
Watch out for cardiac symptoms. Some individuals who have been weaned off ventilators are suddenly dying from heart failure, probably from direct viral attack on the heart, and I don't see why someone with somewhat milder symptoms should be immune.
Please share what you did. You can preface it with it's an old wife's tale but you have anecdotal evidence of its working. This information could be invaluable to others. Anyone mocking you at that point is an asshole.
[deleted]
Did Pranayam or deep breathing help?
[deleted]
Here is an interview with one of the first patients in Germany: https://www.br.de/radio/bayern1/coronavirus-in-bayern-100.ht...
The interview is in German but maybe Google Translate can help. His symptoms however have been very mild.
The interview is in German but maybe Google Translate can help. His symptoms however have been very mild.
34 year old healthy male, non smoker and no relevant medical conditions. Not tested [govt policy] but it's a completely unfamiliar infection of the lungs picked up in a major European city, so go figure...
No proper fever [some of my sleep is the slightly fitful sleep I'd associate with fighting off mild infections, but my temperature is normal or very close], I've coughed only a literal handful of times and not painfully, so clearly sufficiently mild to miss those characteristic responses, no headache and only occasional feelings of fatigue and a bit more sleep than usual. Just inflamed lungs which are more uncomfortable than painful. Back when I felt completely healthy last Wednesday and went for a 3k outdoor run (no more uncomfortable or slower than I'd have expected considering I haven't run much this year) I obviously felt like I was breathing a bit too shallowly and breathing deoxygenated air at the end. This is basically that same feeling coming back the following day, except with a normal breathing rate [and heart rate]. I can still take a deeper breath whenever I want and I'm far from worrying I'm about to run out of oxygen, but just feels uncomfortable and I can imagine how it can cause much more serious problems for people with more severe symptoms, pre-existing lung conditions or immune system issues. It's been steady for the last five days.
No proper fever [some of my sleep is the slightly fitful sleep I'd associate with fighting off mild infections, but my temperature is normal or very close], I've coughed only a literal handful of times and not painfully, so clearly sufficiently mild to miss those characteristic responses, no headache and only occasional feelings of fatigue and a bit more sleep than usual. Just inflamed lungs which are more uncomfortable than painful. Back when I felt completely healthy last Wednesday and went for a 3k outdoor run (no more uncomfortable or slower than I'd have expected considering I haven't run much this year) I obviously felt like I was breathing a bit too shallowly and breathing deoxygenated air at the end. This is basically that same feeling coming back the following day, except with a normal breathing rate [and heart rate]. I can still take a deeper breath whenever I want and I'm far from worrying I'm about to run out of oxygen, but just feels uncomfortable and I can imagine how it can cause much more serious problems for people with more severe symptoms, pre-existing lung conditions or immune system issues. It's been steady for the last five days.
After reading a lot of reporting about this, it isn't clear to me if Covid-19 is the name of the virus or the disease or both.
I realize that for laymen (like me) it doesn't really matter. But academically speaking, is there a difference?
I realize that for laymen (like me) it doesn't really matter. But academically speaking, is there a difference?
Covid-19 ist the disease.
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
The virus itself is called SARS-CoV-2 and previously 2019-nCoV
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syn...
The virus itself is called SARS-CoV-2 and previously 2019-nCoV
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syn...
As far as I know:
COVID-19 (Coronavirus disease 2019) is the disease.
SARS-CoV-2 (Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2) is the virus.
COVID-19 (Coronavirus disease 2019) is the disease.
SARS-CoV-2 (Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2) is the virus.
The novel coronavirus is the virus, Covid19 is the disease it causes. Similar to HIV being the virus and AIDS being the disease it can cause.
[deleted]
Sky News ran an interview with a woman in London diagnosed with Covid-19: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-london-woman-who-caug... It doesn't seem like something that can really be spotted based on the symptoms, which is probably why it's so hard to contain.
According to the danish health authorities, the symptoms include: Fever, airway infection/breathing problems, chills, muscle aches, sore throat, headache, diarrhea and vomiting.
As far as I can tell they’re listed in order of frequency. As for “airway infection” they mention dry cough and runny nose.
From what I can tell the symptoms are more or less similar to a regular seasonal flu or a common cold, but with much more severe outcomes for some.
As far as I can tell they’re listed in order of frequency. As for “airway infection” they mention dry cough and runny nose.
From what I can tell the symptoms are more or less similar to a regular seasonal flu or a common cold, but with much more severe outcomes for some.
I was sick couple of weeks ago and symptoms were very similar to Coronavirus and my doctor dismissed the need to get tested for Coronavirus because I didn’t travel to any of the hotspots. I am feeling better now but I will never know if I had the virus.
Eventually there will be a test for antibodies, assuming you develop long lasting immunity.
Request: for those who report positive tests, please advise if they were told whether active virus was found or just viral DNA (contagious vs not), and sample source (oral swabs, anal, both).
Yet to see a post from someone healthy who can say:
- Had covid
- Had shortness of breath
- Recovered
- Back to running now
- No notable lung capacity issues post recovery
Not saying they are not out there.
- Had covid
- Had shortness of breath
- Recovered
- Back to running now
- No notable lung capacity issues post recovery
Not saying they are not out there.
I remember this guy from China who gave an interview titled "To Hell and back" or something like this... perhaps its just to early for the western media to bring recovery stories. As far as i remember from the things i have read, recovery takes around two to three weeks, add to this the recovery period from a "normal" pneumonia wich can take additional weeks (my father had a light pneumonia last winter, so i remember...).
Perhaps in the chinese media / social media we could find more answers... anyone who can read chinese here?
Perhaps in the chinese media / social media we could find more answers... anyone who can read chinese here?
Thanks, but this really doesn't discuss her post-illness lung capacity, it was simply that she didn't feel that ill during it.
[deleted]
I would be rather interested if anyone tried zinc supplements. I do get that Choloquine is ideally should be also part of regimen, but since it's prescription only, so you can't simply get it.
I bought Cinchona bark, which contains quinine, hypothesizing it might work against the virus. Hope I don't need to verify.
FYI everyone, you're going to get a huge selection bias here. The kind of infected person who's going to see and answer this question will likely have symptoms on the milder side. Answers here should not be expected to be remotely representative.
There's also a huge selection bias the other way, in that people with mild symptoms may not even know they have been infected with covid-19.
Exactly. The few really sick people who are 70-80+ years old will likely not be social media users.
And really sick social media users are less likely to be posting.
Take good care
Your comment about not being older than 60 to get tested made me so angry and shows how fucked the US is. Testing has nothing to do with protecting you (the current treatment for Covid-19 is the same as any other severe respiratory illness), it's about deciding who needs to be quarantined and have their contacts tracked to protect other people. While the severity of symptoms varies by age, the transmissibility does not.
The numbers are many multiples of what is being reported.
The numbers are many multiples of what is being reported.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22574772.
> Your comment about not being older than 60 to get tested made me so angry and shows how fucked the US is
I live in the (presumed) social democratic paradise of Sweden where the "government" has just decided to stop testing anyone who is not already in a hospital and belongs to a risk group, i.e. anyone under ~65 years of age without any co-morbidities [1 - Swedish]. The "state epidemiologist" Anders Tegnell has other wisdom to spread to the world like the fact that a call for as many companies to have as many employees as possible working from home is "problematic" because it ends up exposing some people to more risk of infection than others and thus offset the principle of "fairness" in society [2 - Swedish]. In other words, if we can not lower the risk of exposure for everyone we should not lower the risk for anyone. He is also against school closures because children can not get infected - oh, they can? OK, because children don't get very ill - but they'll still spread the infection to those who can get very ill? OK, because some children don't have it all that nice at home so it would not be fair to them to close the schools. Again, if we can not make it better for everyone it is preferable to not do anything at all.
Sweden is now coming under heavy criticism from other countries, China being one of them [3 - Swedish] when they state "Sweden has capitulated in front of the virus and stands to become a danger to other countries". This is probably part of an ongoing spat between Sweden and China where Sweden earlier criticised China's actions against a Chinese-Swedish citizen but there is no denying that the Swedish "government" has shown a lack of foresight and proactive strategies. There is a dearth of supplies, Sweden has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita in the OECD which is odd for the country with the highest taxes in the world, the health care system can not cope with the normal case load let alone with an influx of Corona-related patients.
[1] https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/samhalle/a/70GQRV/nya-str...
[2] https://nyheteridag.se/tegnell-ojamlikt-att-spotifys-anstall...
[3] https://www.svd.se/kina-riktar-skarp-coronakritik-mot-sverig...
I live in the (presumed) social democratic paradise of Sweden where the "government" has just decided to stop testing anyone who is not already in a hospital and belongs to a risk group, i.e. anyone under ~65 years of age without any co-morbidities [1 - Swedish]. The "state epidemiologist" Anders Tegnell has other wisdom to spread to the world like the fact that a call for as many companies to have as many employees as possible working from home is "problematic" because it ends up exposing some people to more risk of infection than others and thus offset the principle of "fairness" in society [2 - Swedish]. In other words, if we can not lower the risk of exposure for everyone we should not lower the risk for anyone. He is also against school closures because children can not get infected - oh, they can? OK, because children don't get very ill - but they'll still spread the infection to those who can get very ill? OK, because some children don't have it all that nice at home so it would not be fair to them to close the schools. Again, if we can not make it better for everyone it is preferable to not do anything at all.
Sweden is now coming under heavy criticism from other countries, China being one of them [3 - Swedish] when they state "Sweden has capitulated in front of the virus and stands to become a danger to other countries". This is probably part of an ongoing spat between Sweden and China where Sweden earlier criticised China's actions against a Chinese-Swedish citizen but there is no denying that the Swedish "government" has shown a lack of foresight and proactive strategies. There is a dearth of supplies, Sweden has the lowest number of hospital beds per capita in the OECD which is odd for the country with the highest taxes in the world, the health care system can not cope with the normal case load let alone with an influx of Corona-related patients.
[1] https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/samhalle/a/70GQRV/nya-str...
[2] https://nyheteridag.se/tegnell-ojamlikt-att-spotifys-anstall...
[3] https://www.svd.se/kina-riktar-skarp-coronakritik-mot-sverig...
What an incredible imbecilic position. Of course, it's not fair that doctors and nurses, and supply chain drivers, pharmacy workers etc... can't stay home.
But that is precisely why the ones who can, office workers, should stay home. For them! We are in this together.
This guy should absolutely resign, apparently when asked to do so here is his response (link 2)
> No. It is clear that if someone who is considered more competent than I am at dealing with this will come to accept that situation. But I think this is really fun. It sounds a bit strange, but it's a big challenge, a fantastic challenge with this kind of work.
Guy sounds like an absolute moron.
But that is precisely why the ones who can, office workers, should stay home. For them! We are in this together.
This guy should absolutely resign, apparently when asked to do so here is his response (link 2)
> No. It is clear that if someone who is considered more competent than I am at dealing with this will come to accept that situation. But I think this is really fun. It sounds a bit strange, but it's a big challenge, a fantastic challenge with this kind of work.
Guy sounds like an absolute moron.
It’s obvious that China’s criticism are just a continuation of the spat between China and Sweden. It’s also clearly an attempt to continue shifting blame away from China whose government did a terrible job for the first month. The weird idea that China did well due to their draconian measures after doing so poorly is historical whitewashing.
Regardless I do feel like that idiot needs to resign and that Sweden needs to take this more seriously. Though I guess that’ll happen out of necessity in a week anyway.
Regardless I do feel like that idiot needs to resign and that Sweden needs to take this more seriously. Though I guess that’ll happen out of necessity in a week anyway.
I believe your comment is in good faith, but I also believe you are wrong.
This approach sounds very similar to the UK approach, overseen by Whitty[0] and Vallance[1], and agreed with by Neal[2] and Ferguson[3] (and I assume more but I haven't looked very hard). I don't think all these guys are morons. Well, I hope they're not.
[0] Chris Whitty, UK Chief Medical Officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Whitty
[1] Patrick Vallance, UK Chief Science Officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Vallance
[2] Keith Neal, Professor Emeritus - Epidemiology of Infectious Diseases, Univ of Nottingham https://uk.linkedin.com/in/keith-neal-1818b391
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/nottingh... (there was a better quote on the BBC but I can't find it now)
[3] Neil Ferguson, https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/neil.ferguson Haven't got a link but I heard him speak on UK Radio 4's Today programme this morning.
This approach sounds very similar to the UK approach, overseen by Whitty[0] and Vallance[1], and agreed with by Neal[2] and Ferguson[3] (and I assume more but I haven't looked very hard). I don't think all these guys are morons. Well, I hope they're not.
[0] Chris Whitty, UK Chief Medical Officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Whitty
[1] Patrick Vallance, UK Chief Science Officer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Vallance
[2] Keith Neal, Professor Emeritus - Epidemiology of Infectious Diseases, Univ of Nottingham https://uk.linkedin.com/in/keith-neal-1818b391
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/nottingh... (there was a better quote on the BBC but I can't find it now)
[3] Neil Ferguson, https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/neil.ferguson Haven't got a link but I heard him speak on UK Radio 4's Today programme this morning.
In what sense would my comment not be in 'good faith'?
The UK allowed the Cheltenham festival [1] to take place this last week as well, attracting 250.000 visitors.
The mere fact that the UK arrived at the same conclusions as Sweden does not make those conclusions any more valid or wise.
[1] https://cheltenhamfestivaluk.com/
The UK allowed the Cheltenham festival [1] to take place this last week as well, attracting 250.000 visitors.
The mere fact that the UK arrived at the same conclusions as Sweden does not make those conclusions any more valid or wise.
[1] https://cheltenhamfestivaluk.com/
Yeah, fair enough, my good faith line was a bit pointless. I was just trying to be nice before disagreeing with you. Ham-fisted of me.
I was (quite vociferously) of your opinion till Boris Johnson's press conference on Thursday. I changed my mind during it listening to Whitty and Vallance explain their strategy. I now think it makes sense.
I was (quite vociferously) of your opinion till Boris Johnson's press conference on Thursday. I changed my mind during it listening to Whitty and Vallance explain their strategy. I now think it makes sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etlyvt9n_QE
Dr. John Campbell goes into the contradiction between the approach used in e.g. Sweden and the UK vs. that advocated by the WHO. He is with the WHO on this point, as am I. In a few months time we'll know which approach worked best.
Dr. John Campbell goes into the contradiction between the approach used in e.g. Sweden and the UK vs. that advocated by the WHO. He is with the WHO on this point, as am I. In a few months time we'll know which approach worked best.
Just seen this, which supports your point of view:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51892402
Edit: Ah. The list of signatories is worth reviewing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51892402
Edit: Ah. The list of signatories is worth reviewing.
I would argue that the most fair thing I can do is stay home. It is the most good I can do society, as each person at home is one less infection path for those who cannot stay at home.
Another "I'm a Swede and I hate my country" poster. I'm also Swedish so I know what you write is 100% bullshit and parroted from a bunch of right-wing sites.
The reason why not everyone is offered testing is because healthcare is very accessible and free in Sweden (like it is in Denmark, Norway, and Germany too) meaning that you can't offer it to everyone who wants it. Because if you did, you would have to pointlessly test a million hypochondriacs with symptoms that have nothing to do with corona just for the sake of it.
For one view on how well countries handle the epidemic, look at the fatality rate. US: 49/2195 = 2.2%, Germany: 5/3062 = 0.16%, Sweden: 2/867 = 0.23%, Norway: 1/996 = 0.10%, Frane: 79/3667 = 2.2%.
The reason why not everyone is offered testing is because healthcare is very accessible and free in Sweden (like it is in Denmark, Norway, and Germany too) meaning that you can't offer it to everyone who wants it. Because if you did, you would have to pointlessly test a million hypochondriacs with symptoms that have nothing to do with corona just for the sake of it.
For one view on how well countries handle the epidemic, look at the fatality rate. US: 49/2195 = 2.2%, Germany: 5/3062 = 0.16%, Sweden: 2/867 = 0.23%, Norway: 1/996 = 0.10%, Frane: 79/3667 = 2.2%.
I don't hate Sweden, I actually quite like the place. I just don't like the way the "government" handles things at the moment, including their handling - or rather lack of handling - of the oncoming epidemic. Your statement on Swedish health care being "very accessible and free" is easily countered by the fact that the waiting times are notoriously long and getting longer while the amount of provincial tax money spent per capita is more than double the amount spent by neighbouring Finland which manages to avoid some of these problems. Those long waiting times have led to a large increase in the number of people who take out private health insurance to make sure they can actually get the treatment they need instead of having to wait for half a year or more. This means those people pay twice for health care, one time through their provincial taxes, another time through their health insurance. This has been compounded by the "government" putting an extra tax on private health insurance because they deem it unfair that those who have private insurance don't have to wait as long for treatment as those who lack such insurance.
I am all for single-payer health insurance, either through the state or through a private-public system like the Netherlands uses. I just don't see how the current Swedish system can be seen as a good solution given the high costs and low productivity it is characterised by.
Those fatality rates you quote are based on the assumption that the reported case incidence is correct which is very likely not the case. Assuming that the number of SARS2-related deaths is correct this number is probably the best way to make an estimate of the actual case incidence in developed countries with a functioning (not overloaded) health care system - this does not go for e.g. Italy where they're now doing reverse triage, i.e. they decide who gets treatment based on a desire to maximize throughput instead of treating those who have the highest need first as is done in a non-overloaded situation.
By the way, I'm not a Swede. I am a Dutchman living in Sweden with a Swedish-French wife and two Dutch-Swedish-French children.
I am all for single-payer health insurance, either through the state or through a private-public system like the Netherlands uses. I just don't see how the current Swedish system can be seen as a good solution given the high costs and low productivity it is characterised by.
Those fatality rates you quote are based on the assumption that the reported case incidence is correct which is very likely not the case. Assuming that the number of SARS2-related deaths is correct this number is probably the best way to make an estimate of the actual case incidence in developed countries with a functioning (not overloaded) health care system - this does not go for e.g. Italy where they're now doing reverse triage, i.e. they decide who gets treatment based on a desire to maximize throughput instead of treating those who have the highest need first as is done in a non-overloaded situation.
By the way, I'm not a Swede. I am a Dutchman living in Sweden with a Swedish-French wife and two Dutch-Swedish-French children.
> I don't hate Sweden, I actually quite like the place. I just don't like the way the "government" handles things at the moment, including their handling - or rather lack of handling - of the oncoming epidemic.
That would be a fair position if you could tell us how you would do it better. Preferably your proposals should be based on research. I imagine being an epidemologist and constantly having people questioning your expertise is not dissimilar to being a software developer and having people constantly doing the same to you. Frustrating, in other words.
> Your statement on Swedish health care being "very accessible and free" is easily countered by the fact that the waiting times are notoriously long and getting longer while the amount of provincial tax money spent per capita is more than double the amount spent by neighbouring Finland which manages to avoid some of these problems.
Corona testing would be executed by primary caregivers for which waiting times are short. See https://www.vantetider.se/ The stats say that 80% of patients have to wait less than three days for a doctor's appointment.
Tax rates are a very broad discussion and in my opinion not relevant here.
> Those long waiting times have led to a large increase in the number of people who take out private health insurance to make sure they can actually get the treatment they need instead of having to wait for half a year or more.
6% of the population has a private health insurance. Such insurance can reduce waiting times to specialist care but not primary care.
> Those fatality rates you quote are based on the assumption that the reported case incidence is correct which is very likely not the case.
True. My point is that, all else being equal, the better the healthcare the lower the mortality rate should be. E.g Germany has 3062 cases but only 5 fatalities meaning that the disease is probably somewhat contained. The US has 2345 cases and 50 fatalities meaning the opposite.
> By the way, I'm not a Swede. I am a Dutchman living in Sweden with a Swedish-French wife and two Dutch-Swedish-French children.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
That would be a fair position if you could tell us how you would do it better. Preferably your proposals should be based on research. I imagine being an epidemologist and constantly having people questioning your expertise is not dissimilar to being a software developer and having people constantly doing the same to you. Frustrating, in other words.
> Your statement on Swedish health care being "very accessible and free" is easily countered by the fact that the waiting times are notoriously long and getting longer while the amount of provincial tax money spent per capita is more than double the amount spent by neighbouring Finland which manages to avoid some of these problems.
Corona testing would be executed by primary caregivers for which waiting times are short. See https://www.vantetider.se/ The stats say that 80% of patients have to wait less than three days for a doctor's appointment.
Tax rates are a very broad discussion and in my opinion not relevant here.
> Those long waiting times have led to a large increase in the number of people who take out private health insurance to make sure they can actually get the treatment they need instead of having to wait for half a year or more.
6% of the population has a private health insurance. Such insurance can reduce waiting times to specialist care but not primary care.
> Those fatality rates you quote are based on the assumption that the reported case incidence is correct which is very likely not the case.
True. My point is that, all else being equal, the better the healthcare the lower the mortality rate should be. E.g Germany has 3062 cases but only 5 fatalities meaning that the disease is probably somewhat contained. The US has 2345 cases and 50 fatalities meaning the opposite.
> By the way, I'm not a Swede. I am a Dutchman living in Sweden with a Swedish-French wife and two Dutch-Swedish-French children.
I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
> That would be a fair position if you could tell us how you would do it better
While I have much to fault the overly bureaucratic and top-heavy WHO for I do agree to their current stance on the handling of the pandemic. This stance is based on research and is supported by many in the field. It is also followed by a large number of countries in Europe except for a few, Sweden being one of those. I linked to one of Dr. John Campbell's (who is one of the more reasonable voices on this subject) videos on this subject a few posts above this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etlyvt9n_QE
> Corona testing would be executed by primary caregivers
It shouldn't. It should be done outside of the normal healthcare centres ("vårdcentraler") to reduce the risk of infection. Look at the way it is done in South Korea where mobile testing facilities are used for an idea on how to handle this. There should be no need for an appointment, the test should be "drive-through" or "walk-through".
> 6% of the population has a private health insurance. Such insurance can reduce waiting times to specialist care but not primary care.
The waiting times are mostly an issue for specialist care. Given that a large part of the role of the primary care provider is to refer people to specialist care this reduction in waiting times is very relevant.
While I have much to fault the overly bureaucratic and top-heavy WHO for I do agree to their current stance on the handling of the pandemic. This stance is based on research and is supported by many in the field. It is also followed by a large number of countries in Europe except for a few, Sweden being one of those. I linked to one of Dr. John Campbell's (who is one of the more reasonable voices on this subject) videos on this subject a few posts above this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etlyvt9n_QE
> Corona testing would be executed by primary caregivers
It shouldn't. It should be done outside of the normal healthcare centres ("vårdcentraler") to reduce the risk of infection. Look at the way it is done in South Korea where mobile testing facilities are used for an idea on how to handle this. There should be no need for an appointment, the test should be "drive-through" or "walk-through".
> 6% of the population has a private health insurance. Such insurance can reduce waiting times to specialist care but not primary care.
The waiting times are mostly an issue for specialist care. Given that a large part of the role of the primary care provider is to refer people to specialist care this reduction in waiting times is very relevant.
cannabis_sam(1)
As I understand it, in GP's case it's already clear that the decision should be to quarantine without needing a test. Additionally, at least were I live, the number of cases has gotten so big that it has become unfeasible to track their contacts. Thus, there's not much use in testing.
> Your comment about not being older than 60 to get tested made me so angry and shows how fucked the US is.
This is not US-only. Here in Austria there are very strict rules on whom to test, and age is a big factor as well as having symptoms or not. Local authorities do decide on a case-by-case basis, and getting a test if you are not showing symptoms is really hard.
But on the other hand by taking these measures they try to not overwhelm the testing-labs, as they struggle to keep up with the demand for tests and want to keep the reporting-time as low as possible. A couple of days ago test results came back the next day, now (Saturday) they seem to slip to 3 days or more.
So restricting who get's a test and who doesn't seems like a good idea to begin with.
This is not US-only. Here in Austria there are very strict rules on whom to test, and age is a big factor as well as having symptoms or not. Local authorities do decide on a case-by-case basis, and getting a test if you are not showing symptoms is really hard.
But on the other hand by taking these measures they try to not overwhelm the testing-labs, as they struggle to keep up with the demand for tests and want to keep the reporting-time as low as possible. A couple of days ago test results came back the next day, now (Saturday) they seem to slip to 3 days or more.
So restricting who get's a test and who doesn't seems like a good idea to begin with.
How did South Korea manage to ramp up the testing so quickly? They did a vast amount of tests, and test results constantly came back quickly. What is needed to do the same?
If you have a fever and a wet chesty cough, you should be planting your ass on the sofa with Gatorade and fever meds.
Regardless of what's causing your symptoms.
If you're having increased trouble breathing, you should see a hospital.
Regardless of what's causing your symptoms.
If you're having increased trouble breathing, you should see a hospital.
Testing should be reserved for situations where the outcome of the test will change management. One such situation is whether or not the patient should be quarantined. Another situation is whether or not medical management will be affected (send home vs admit vs ICU). If someone is going to self quarantine regardless, maybe testing isn't appropriate.