Silicon Valley Ruined Work Culture(wired.com)
wired.com
Silicon Valley Ruined Work Culture
https://www.wired.com/story/how-silicon-valley-ruined-work-culture/
35 comments
Is anyone else hearing a lot of sniffing when artsyca unmutes Microsoft teams? I thought we were switching to slackerzomba or whatever
I'm not even sure what that means but have an upvote
After reading some of these comments I needed a cleanse of sorts. I suspect I'm not the only one.
https://fs.blog/2014/05/hunter-s-thompson-to-hume-logan/
https://fs.blog/2014/05/hunter-s-thompson-to-hume-logan/
Quite tellingly the first paragraph mentions casual dress
Casual dress goes with casual culture which is inherently toxic at scale
Can you be more specific about casual culture being inherently toxic at scale? I ask because I prefer a casual work culture (and casual dress), because in the grand scheme of things, most work isn’t that important. We’re not saving lives, we just pushing bits around. And I doubt you care what I’m wearing if I’m saving you’re life.
You said it yourself dude
You said it yourself but I'll spell it out anyway
What you're saying essentially is you're not that invested in your work
That has societal repercussions in an organization when so many people who are essentially uninvested show up to work on any given day there's an unspoken ethos of defeatism that permeates every interaction
The casual clothing is a smell like any other in code that indicates precisely this bullshit mentality and it doesn't scale beyond the very initial phases
What you're saying essentially is you're not that invested in your work
That has societal repercussions in an organization when so many people who are essentially uninvested show up to work on any given day there's an unspoken ethos of defeatism that permeates every interaction
The casual clothing is a smell like any other in code that indicates precisely this bullshit mentality and it doesn't scale beyond the very initial phases
My success as an architect or senior dev or supervising senior dev or practice lead (all hats I've worn just like the knit beanie I wear every day) all depend on a senior management team above me that remains relaxed, open to new ideas, and collaborative. I need them to view me as a flexible resource that works just as hard to understand their needs and concerns as I do to understand those of the engineers at the firm.
That's why I wear jeans and a tshirt when I'm meeting with internal teams and I put on a suit and tie (or at least a cashmere sweater and slacks) when I meet with clients or mostly senior management teams.
I need openness and collaboration between peers who frequently and stubbornly misunderstand each other and by signaling that I'm not explicitly playing for either team I foster that openness and collaboration.
Often managers smirk or chuckle at my casual attire and engineers are wary and look askance at my Tie Bar wool ties and designer shoes when I am attending a workshop.
I dress for the audience, not for me. Stubbornly adhering to any other standard is dumb.
That's why I wear jeans and a tshirt when I'm meeting with internal teams and I put on a suit and tie (or at least a cashmere sweater and slacks) when I meet with clients or mostly senior management teams.
I need openness and collaboration between peers who frequently and stubbornly misunderstand each other and by signaling that I'm not explicitly playing for either team I foster that openness and collaboration.
Often managers smirk or chuckle at my casual attire and engineers are wary and look askance at my Tie Bar wool ties and designer shoes when I am attending a workshop.
I dress for the audience, not for me. Stubbornly adhering to any other standard is dumb.
Look I appreciate the sentiment but I'm calling bullshit
You're putting way too much effort into choosing a look whereas in a real professional world everyone would choose to exnovate at one kind of outfit and move on to more important matters
But I do agree there are moments when you dress for yourself and moments when you dress for others
During work it's 100% dress for the team and client
As a senior software developer start-up founder and process consultant I'm telling you dress is an important semaphore that most people fumble badly and it only serves to amplify the control dramas and false corporate power dynamics
Your beanie is not only a beanie it's a badge of entitlement
You're putting way too much effort into choosing a look whereas in a real professional world everyone would choose to exnovate at one kind of outfit and move on to more important matters
But I do agree there are moments when you dress for yourself and moments when you dress for others
During work it's 100% dress for the team and client
As a senior software developer start-up founder and process consultant I'm telling you dress is an important semaphore that most people fumble badly and it only serves to amplify the control dramas and false corporate power dynamics
Your beanie is not only a beanie it's a badge of entitlement
I'm a software engineer. What matters is the code I produce. If I wear a tie, the tie does not wind up in the source code control system. If wear jeans, the compiler does not care. You're confusing the trappings of professionalism for the actual professionalism. They are not the same thing.
I think it's possible to invest a whole life under someone's thumb being compared against KPI's and other metrics and get neither professionalism nor the trappings of it
Taking the trappings even when they're not on offer is the way to show the intention of taking the substance of the thing because I refuse to be bought and sold by people who don't have the same understanding or appreciation for this discipline
Taking the trappings even when they're not on offer is the way to show the intention of taking the substance of the thing because I refuse to be bought and sold by people who don't have the same understanding or appreciation for this discipline
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You're naive if you really believe that how long have you been in this industry
Do you seriously believe the software you produce in isolation has any bearing on the world outside your window?
The only thing that matters is the quality of communication within the organization and most organizations behave like casually dressed socialist dystopias producing code that precisely reflects the petty squabbles and false power struggles that go into it
You're being bought and sold by management bros high fiving each other and missing
Do you seriously believe the software you produce in isolation has any bearing on the world outside your window?
The only thing that matters is the quality of communication within the organization and most organizations behave like casually dressed socialist dystopias producing code that precisely reflects the petty squabbles and false power struggles that go into it
You're being bought and sold by management bros high fiving each other and missing
How long have I been in this industry? 35 years. Your view does not accurately reflect my experience in this industry.
Two unrelated suggestions for you:
1. You can edit a comment for two hours after you submit it. You don't have to keep making parallel comments or replying to yourself.
2. Use punctuation. It would make your writing much more readable. (And if you're not trying to be readable, then you're just wasting your time and ours by posting here.)
Two unrelated suggestions for you:
1. You can edit a comment for two hours after you submit it. You don't have to keep making parallel comments or replying to yourself.
2. Use punctuation. It would make your writing much more readable. (And if you're not trying to be readable, then you're just wasting your time and ours by posting here.)
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But don't fool yourself into thinking these kids entering the industry now are facing anything like the same conditions we did in fucking 1985
Ah then you're as salty as I am good on you bro do as you fucking well please
But don't fool yourself into thinking these kids entering the industry now are facing anything like the same conditions we did in fucking 1985
Also you're meant to read my comments like Chris Walken just pause when you please and extract any sort of meaning you wish after all we're all just shouting at ourselves by proxy
Even so I'm grateful to the comment you wrote because it very succinctly expresses the crux of the issue
"I prefer casual culture because I'm not that into it anyway" I'm very grateful to that I wonder who else is willing to admit this?
On the other hand I'm highly invested my whole life and my family depend on my work not to mention those suckers I call clients
"I prefer casual culture because I'm not that into it anyway" I'm very grateful to that I wonder who else is willing to admit this?
On the other hand I'm highly invested my whole life and my family depend on my work not to mention those suckers I call clients
I get paid and the work gets done. I don’t have to be passionate about it. It’s just work.
I recommend introspection as it relates to life choices and identity. Nobody cares about their job on their death bed, only wishing they had prioritized more time with friends, family, and loved ones. Work backwards from there, and optimize to be happy with what you valued and how you spent your life. A job generates income, but is not who you are as a human.
TLDR Treating work as just work, and not something of significant importance, is not toxic IMHO. On the contrary, it is the healthiest way to address it as a necessary (for now) part of our lives. YMMV. Good luck.
I recommend introspection as it relates to life choices and identity. Nobody cares about their job on their death bed, only wishing they had prioritized more time with friends, family, and loved ones. Work backwards from there, and optimize to be happy with what you valued and how you spent your life. A job generates income, but is not who you are as a human.
TLDR Treating work as just work, and not something of significant importance, is not toxic IMHO. On the contrary, it is the healthiest way to address it as a necessary (for now) part of our lives. YMMV. Good luck.
> only wishing they had prioritized more time with friends, family, and loved ones.
That's the point dude why would you spend a whole life passionlessly working like an emotionless robot only to regret not being with your friends?
That's the point dude why would you spend a whole life passionlessly working like an emotionless robot only to regret not being with your friends?
The money part pays for everything else.
So the tradeoff is doing something you don't particularly value in exchange for something you do value I feel like you're ripping yourself off
Hey I appreciate that but I don't have the luxury to treat it like anything but survival I used to be very laid back but as you said once again I am not willing to compromise things I value a lot in exchange for things I value less in other words 8 hours a day doing something I don't care about to gain one hour at best with people I care about sounds like a bad deal
I can't help thinking how much effort would be saved if everyone wasn't so busy being busy while trying to seem somehow aloof it's pure toxicity I don't see anything good coming out of it but you're right YMMV you've only got one life to invest in doing whatever you feel is best
I can't help thinking how much effort would be saved if everyone wasn't so busy being busy while trying to seem somehow aloof it's pure toxicity I don't see anything good coming out of it but you're right YMMV you've only got one life to invest in doing whatever you feel is best
Like to clarify
Whether I spend my day playing foosball and drinking kombucha with a bunch of ass dragging laggards or saving orphan refugees in a war zone I'll be equally tired when I get home to my family
After a decade or more of doing the same thing and having the same asinine conversations with an endlessly changing cast of quirky but equally uninvested dilberts I begin to ask myself my kids are stuck in daycare for this shit?
Some of us say meh life is but a born - work - die type of proposition just have another cup of company coffee for the road while others ask why the fuck are we still wearing clothes from the mall
Whether I spend my day playing foosball and drinking kombucha with a bunch of ass dragging laggards or saving orphan refugees in a war zone I'll be equally tired when I get home to my family
After a decade or more of doing the same thing and having the same asinine conversations with an endlessly changing cast of quirky but equally uninvested dilberts I begin to ask myself my kids are stuck in daycare for this shit?
Some of us say meh life is but a born - work - die type of proposition just have another cup of company coffee for the road while others ask why the fuck are we still wearing clothes from the mall
We're both looking at the same evidence and drawing different conclusions I respect your opinions but I wouldn't want to work in an environment like that my whole life because I genuinely have better things to do
This is an interesting perspective I haven't considered much before. Let's analyse this point a bit more. This post is a bit of a rambling stream off the top of my head.
First, what I have thought about casual clothing up to this point: I always considered the concept of telling other people what they should have to wear to work to be somewhat ridiculous. When I think of being forced to "dress up", the places that this could be useful that come to mind are 1. when you want to maintain a consistent aesthetic amongst a group of people ie. a funeral, a wedding, a party, 2. when you want to make an artistic statement ie. "dressing up to look nice", whether this means impressing your boss or impressing a potential mate. In either case dress generally assumes the form of what I consider a "costume": Clothing that is meant to do something apart from just cover the body. Some people are naturally more comfortable more dressed up than others, some people consider wearing their favourite casual shirt "dressing up". "dressing up" is not a binary thing, it is a spectrum, you can be a little dressed up or a little dressed down. Sometimes having too casual a dress culture can be alienating to those whom like to dress up. This is a real issues, however I've tended to sweep it under the rug and not considered it in too much detail before.
Now let's look at the concept of casual dress causing "casual culture". For the sake of this thought, let's just assume "casual culture" is in fact a bad thing. For reference, I think casual culture is not entirely a bad thing: I think the core of work being "too casual" really means it's casual to the point where things are laid back enough that things are not progressing efficiently, and overall employees cannot feel satisfaction from the level of work being completed. Again this is entirely subjective, workers from different countries may think what you are calling casual culture is "too uncasual" or working "too casual". And of course casualness is also a spectrum not a binary "casual" or "non-casual".
With this definition I think the core subjective nature of the comment starts to become apparent: When is work "too casual" ie. "when are we not taking ourselves seriously enough to feel satisfied and get work done"? Rather than trying to figure out the total casualness level that makes work "toxic", let's instead look at each action by itself how it effects total casualness. The "delta casualness" of an event if you will. For example, if we move from dressing in classic "work clothes" to dressing in something closer to weekend wear, this has a net effect of increasing casualness. It also has the "feedback effect" which you state as inspiring "casual culture". Let us ignore this feedback effect for now. So is this increase, without taking into account the feedback effect, good or bad?
The core cons I see in casual clothing are quite obvious: less comfortable, need to spend money on pointless objects in order to increase casualness, lack ability to express oneself. In other word there is no core utility in casual clothing. What are the pros of casual clothing? Honestly there really aren't any large I can think of, except for as mentioned previously the feedback effect. Let us then look at the feedback effect.
The feedback effect, whereby an increase in casualness causes a further increase in casualness leading to a "toxic culture" is debatable. Let's assume that it's real though. What actually are just changing our clothes doing to us as people that causes the overall culture to be effected so dramatically? I think it's similar to working at home vs going to work. I think many people, myself included, find it much more difficult to work at home than working at work, purely because we feel less of that motivation to actually do work. When I have to go to work, I have to then justify having just spent 30 minutes commuting to work, which I do by saying in my head "Why did I just waste 30 minutes on travel? ah yes I did it to get work done, therefore I should work". It forces me to get into "work mode". I think that casual clothes similarly just push us mentally in this direction. "Why did I go through all this effort of getting dressed up like this? Oh yes it's to work. Thus I will start my work". It's simply being used as a token to express our "seriousness".
However I think that really any sacrifice can be a "token of seriousness". As I say, commuting to work in my own life has always been a big motivator. If it were socially acceptable and not cult like, we could have people scream and chant at the beginning of every day. In fact some examples of this are Walmart with their weird Walmart chants, and schools with the pledge of allegiance and national anthems. In fact both these places also (sometimes) bear uniforms, again acting of tokens of seriousness. What makes a token of seriousness depends on the person and the environment, and thus the effectiveness of the tokens are generally quite subjective. Not wearing casual clothes will only cause a feedback effect of decreasing the seriousness of work if it was a significant token of seriousness in the first place.
So the question really boils down to, "is dressing up a useful token of seriousness?" Which I have to state in my opinion it isn't. The things that make me feel serious are generally maintaining proper hygiene, proper schedule, moving to a physical place of work daily. Not dressing up does cause a small drop in seriousness I agree, however I think this drop is acceptably small. I warn however I am very heavily biased towards a lack of dressing up due to having never worked or been educated anywhere which required dressing up.
So what is the solution? I think that individuals should find their own tokens of seriousness if they need them. This is why an open dress policy is good: it makes it optimal for everyone so long as everyone is making sure to push themselves to make logical decisions about self motivation. If they feel better dressing up then they should. In practice, I mentioned before this casual dress culture does actually cause it to be more difficult for others whom find dressing up a reasonable token of seriousness as they now they stand out whenever they dress up, and perhaps this is a serious issue (a seperate debate). Yes there is some merit in everyone dressing up and keeping a consistent aesthetic, however I don't think this aesthetic significantly changes the culture (another debate surely). I think dressing up largely changes just the individual's seriousness. If a boss is properly devoted to maintaining a non-casual workplace, simply forcing people to dress up will probably increase seriousness a little, but it is not a fix for your coorporate culture as it is not a significant enough token of seriousness for many. I think if you do not want people to be less casual you do it through other more direct means, for example creating a culture of overtime, short breaks, lack of "screwing around" on work time, etc. It feels silly and manipulative to make everyone wear a costume in hopes of inspiring them to work harder rather than just making your end goals clear.
First, what I have thought about casual clothing up to this point: I always considered the concept of telling other people what they should have to wear to work to be somewhat ridiculous. When I think of being forced to "dress up", the places that this could be useful that come to mind are 1. when you want to maintain a consistent aesthetic amongst a group of people ie. a funeral, a wedding, a party, 2. when you want to make an artistic statement ie. "dressing up to look nice", whether this means impressing your boss or impressing a potential mate. In either case dress generally assumes the form of what I consider a "costume": Clothing that is meant to do something apart from just cover the body. Some people are naturally more comfortable more dressed up than others, some people consider wearing their favourite casual shirt "dressing up". "dressing up" is not a binary thing, it is a spectrum, you can be a little dressed up or a little dressed down. Sometimes having too casual a dress culture can be alienating to those whom like to dress up. This is a real issues, however I've tended to sweep it under the rug and not considered it in too much detail before.
Now let's look at the concept of casual dress causing "casual culture". For the sake of this thought, let's just assume "casual culture" is in fact a bad thing. For reference, I think casual culture is not entirely a bad thing: I think the core of work being "too casual" really means it's casual to the point where things are laid back enough that things are not progressing efficiently, and overall employees cannot feel satisfaction from the level of work being completed. Again this is entirely subjective, workers from different countries may think what you are calling casual culture is "too uncasual" or working "too casual". And of course casualness is also a spectrum not a binary "casual" or "non-casual".
With this definition I think the core subjective nature of the comment starts to become apparent: When is work "too casual" ie. "when are we not taking ourselves seriously enough to feel satisfied and get work done"? Rather than trying to figure out the total casualness level that makes work "toxic", let's instead look at each action by itself how it effects total casualness. The "delta casualness" of an event if you will. For example, if we move from dressing in classic "work clothes" to dressing in something closer to weekend wear, this has a net effect of increasing casualness. It also has the "feedback effect" which you state as inspiring "casual culture". Let us ignore this feedback effect for now. So is this increase, without taking into account the feedback effect, good or bad?
The core cons I see in casual clothing are quite obvious: less comfortable, need to spend money on pointless objects in order to increase casualness, lack ability to express oneself. In other word there is no core utility in casual clothing. What are the pros of casual clothing? Honestly there really aren't any large I can think of, except for as mentioned previously the feedback effect. Let us then look at the feedback effect.
The feedback effect, whereby an increase in casualness causes a further increase in casualness leading to a "toxic culture" is debatable. Let's assume that it's real though. What actually are just changing our clothes doing to us as people that causes the overall culture to be effected so dramatically? I think it's similar to working at home vs going to work. I think many people, myself included, find it much more difficult to work at home than working at work, purely because we feel less of that motivation to actually do work. When I have to go to work, I have to then justify having just spent 30 minutes commuting to work, which I do by saying in my head "Why did I just waste 30 minutes on travel? ah yes I did it to get work done, therefore I should work". It forces me to get into "work mode". I think that casual clothes similarly just push us mentally in this direction. "Why did I go through all this effort of getting dressed up like this? Oh yes it's to work. Thus I will start my work". It's simply being used as a token to express our "seriousness".
However I think that really any sacrifice can be a "token of seriousness". As I say, commuting to work in my own life has always been a big motivator. If it were socially acceptable and not cult like, we could have people scream and chant at the beginning of every day. In fact some examples of this are Walmart with their weird Walmart chants, and schools with the pledge of allegiance and national anthems. In fact both these places also (sometimes) bear uniforms, again acting of tokens of seriousness. What makes a token of seriousness depends on the person and the environment, and thus the effectiveness of the tokens are generally quite subjective. Not wearing casual clothes will only cause a feedback effect of decreasing the seriousness of work if it was a significant token of seriousness in the first place.
So the question really boils down to, "is dressing up a useful token of seriousness?" Which I have to state in my opinion it isn't. The things that make me feel serious are generally maintaining proper hygiene, proper schedule, moving to a physical place of work daily. Not dressing up does cause a small drop in seriousness I agree, however I think this drop is acceptably small. I warn however I am very heavily biased towards a lack of dressing up due to having never worked or been educated anywhere which required dressing up.
So what is the solution? I think that individuals should find their own tokens of seriousness if they need them. This is why an open dress policy is good: it makes it optimal for everyone so long as everyone is making sure to push themselves to make logical decisions about self motivation. If they feel better dressing up then they should. In practice, I mentioned before this casual dress culture does actually cause it to be more difficult for others whom find dressing up a reasonable token of seriousness as they now they stand out whenever they dress up, and perhaps this is a serious issue (a seperate debate). Yes there is some merit in everyone dressing up and keeping a consistent aesthetic, however I don't think this aesthetic significantly changes the culture (another debate surely). I think dressing up largely changes just the individual's seriousness. If a boss is properly devoted to maintaining a non-casual workplace, simply forcing people to dress up will probably increase seriousness a little, but it is not a fix for your coorporate culture as it is not a significant enough token of seriousness for many. I think if you do not want people to be less casual you do it through other more direct means, for example creating a culture of overtime, short breaks, lack of "screwing around" on work time, etc. It feels silly and manipulative to make everyone wear a costume in hopes of inspiring them to work harder rather than just making your end goals clear.
Killameme99 this diatribe shows me pretty much how much you overthink just about everything
Even so I'll address some of the issues here
There are holes in your initial assumptions and I won't point them out save to say that a lot of people think the same way you do and that in itself should cause you to reconsider
Finally it's not about imposing a certain style of dress on people but rather than certain other styles of dress won't get you where you're trying to go as a team
There are holes in your initial assumptions and I won't point them out save to say that a lot of people think the same way you do and that in itself should cause you to reconsider
Finally it's not about imposing a certain style of dress on people but rather than certain other styles of dress won't get you where you're trying to go as a team
Let me also ask how long you've been a software professional and whether you've looked into the history of software from its early start in the textile industry
No true professional can be casual period and casual culture doesn't scale anywhere beyond the bullshit we're seeing all over the tech industry
A lot of people will try to use silly outdated counter examples about people who dress professionally but aren't and people who don't dress professionally but are
Put that shit on a two by two matrix and find the fucking golden quadrant you wannabe software specialists