Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?
248 comments
Taking your description at face value, something is incongruous between how you present yourself in person vs. on your resumé. I can't see how otherwise despite your qualifications on paper and in your phone conversation why a company would spend their time bringing you onsite for a specific position, and then find you unfit but still want to consider you for something else. There seems to be a disconnect that doesn't manifest until that late stage. And I don't think any further online diagnosis of the problem will help. I think you should seek out a trusted individual you know in person to help you identify that incongruity. Realize, it might mean you get rejected earlier in the process, but maybe that's for the best if it saves you time in interview processes that will eventually not work out anyway, and attract the attention of the ones that will faster.
Definitely agree with the above.
Some thoughts.. I'm Indian-bodied but was born and raised in the states. When I was in my early 20s I lived on and off in India for about 5 years (about 6 months at a time). So I've had a decent amount of exposure to Indians of all types (Indian and American born). I've also worked with a fair amount of Indians over the course of the last few years.
These may not be the case with you, but as someone who has had a fair amount of exposure to Indians form India, and as someone who has coached and interviewed a fair amount of Indians for a variety of roles, the following may help:
+A lot of it boils down to personality. I've noticed a very wide spectrum of attitudes coming from Indians. I think a fair amount of introspection and awareness about how you are coming across to the other side is a really powerful tool to employ. I've seen a lot of ego and general lack of sophistication and at times class from some Indians that I've met, and I'm certainly not saying that this may be the case with you, but it may be worth considering if there's something about your mannerism / tone that maybe rubbing people the wrong way.
+Being a FOB language skills can be a natural weakness but judging by your post this doesn't seem to be the case. I think being yourself and honing your personality will have more impact, but taking a little extra care in how you communicate can really work wonders.
+You say you're in a product management role, there's generally an axis of management skill vs. technical ability. Some companies may be looking for one or the other, and in the interview you may or may not be emphasizing the one they're looking for.
+And finally there's leadership ability, particularly important in management roles. Have you led your teams to success in your career? Reflect about what got you to that point, and try and channel that into your interviews.
+Above all, stay the course if you can. If you're convinced you're on the path you want to go, then persist. If you want something else and have the runway to pursue it, then a change of environment is a great first step towards finding your next step into something that motivates you.
No offense intended in any of the above, and best of luck to you!
Some thoughts.. I'm Indian-bodied but was born and raised in the states. When I was in my early 20s I lived on and off in India for about 5 years (about 6 months at a time). So I've had a decent amount of exposure to Indians of all types (Indian and American born). I've also worked with a fair amount of Indians over the course of the last few years.
These may not be the case with you, but as someone who has had a fair amount of exposure to Indians form India, and as someone who has coached and interviewed a fair amount of Indians for a variety of roles, the following may help:
+A lot of it boils down to personality. I've noticed a very wide spectrum of attitudes coming from Indians. I think a fair amount of introspection and awareness about how you are coming across to the other side is a really powerful tool to employ. I've seen a lot of ego and general lack of sophistication and at times class from some Indians that I've met, and I'm certainly not saying that this may be the case with you, but it may be worth considering if there's something about your mannerism / tone that maybe rubbing people the wrong way.
+Being a FOB language skills can be a natural weakness but judging by your post this doesn't seem to be the case. I think being yourself and honing your personality will have more impact, but taking a little extra care in how you communicate can really work wonders.
+You say you're in a product management role, there's generally an axis of management skill vs. technical ability. Some companies may be looking for one or the other, and in the interview you may or may not be emphasizing the one they're looking for.
+And finally there's leadership ability, particularly important in management roles. Have you led your teams to success in your career? Reflect about what got you to that point, and try and channel that into your interviews.
+Above all, stay the course if you can. If you're convinced you're on the path you want to go, then persist. If you want something else and have the runway to pursue it, then a change of environment is a great first step towards finding your next step into something that motivates you.
No offense intended in any of the above, and best of luck to you!
You are right.
The thing with stereotypes is that it lingers. But people from different generations might do away with that
Now, a Project Management position in a smaller company might require different skills. Being a Product Owner of a feature in a bigger product with broken down requirements coming from upstream is a very different job than POing at a smaller company where you have to come up with requirements based on goals.
The thing with stereotypes is that it lingers. But people from different generations might do away with that
Now, a Project Management position in a smaller company might require different skills. Being a Product Owner of a feature in a bigger product with broken down requirements coming from upstream is a very different job than POing at a smaller company where you have to come up with requirements based on goals.
Helpful, actionable advice. The personality piece is incredibly important, knowledge and skills can be trained, but attitude and the habits (good and bad) we bring to any role are much harder to fix.
This.
The last company I worked for interviewed some founder of a Czech IT agency for a lead dev position and his resume seemed awesome.
He worked over 15 years in IT, founded a company that had 10 employees etc.
But the first thing he said in the interview was "What job do you have? I only accept CTO"
whelp.
The last company I worked for interviewed some founder of a Czech IT agency for a lead dev position and his resume seemed awesome.
He worked over 15 years in IT, founded a company that had 10 employees etc.
But the first thing he said in the interview was "What job do you have? I only accept CTO"
whelp.
Unless he knew exactly what he wanted, and simply asked for that :)
Unless he had not applied for a CTO role
Sure thing, but it came across rather self absorbed.
Well, it is not like he was speaking on behalf of someone else.
It was HE that would be taking the job -- so why not make sure it's the job he wanted in the first place?
If he was desperate for any job AND still said that, then he would be indeed self absorbed.
It was HE that would be taking the job -- so why not make sure it's the job he wanted in the first place?
If he was desperate for any job AND still said that, then he would be indeed self absorbed.
I agree with lr4444lr: there is something going on that apparently only comes out when they meet you face to face.
We do not know you so I will have to work on the little you put on the OP... maybe during the on-site interview you come out as a bit too desperate about changing job? or too whiney about the current job? Or both?
Try to consider if this could actually be a factor: I am sure that "what do you think of your current position" is pretty much a criteria in considering a new hire, even if it is not necessarily prominent during the interview.
We do not know you so I will have to work on the little you put on the OP... maybe during the on-site interview you come out as a bit too desperate about changing job? or too whiney about the current job? Or both?
Try to consider if this could actually be a factor: I am sure that "what do you think of your current position" is pretty much a criteria in considering a new hire, even if it is not necessarily prominent during the interview.
What are you willing to sacrifice? I can give you an answer, but you won't like it. As an Indian man you'll be discriminated against. Period. Lots of empirical proof for that, not just job wise but in lots of other cases (dating, etc).
While folks here will give you lots of tips on the professional side, here are a few actionable things you can do to minimize racial bias:
- Change your name to an americanized version. I know someone who did this. Lots of research that proves this point: http://bit.ly/1mcsxdJ
- Take acting classes and learn to speak with no accent It wont be permanent, but you'll be able to minimize your accent for a few hours in the interview. It's akin to speaking with a fake French accent. See: http://bit.ly/2loPQwy
- Pay people to give you mock interviews and record them. Pay someone else to review the footage and give you interviewing tips.
- Improve your appearance: Bleach your hair lighter shade of brown and try to dress comfortably casual.
- Take some dating classes, learn to improve your confidence (or at least fake it for the in-person interview0.
- Improve your public speaking ability: Join a toastmasters group, get a mentor and give a few speeches.
A job interview is a bit like dating. If you're getting rejected during in-person interviews, then learn to "date better". A lot of racial biases here in SFbay are pretty rough. Even if you graduated top of your class at Stanford and had a successful exit you'll be near the bottom of the pile when it comes to dating.
While folks here will give you lots of tips on the professional side, here are a few actionable things you can do to minimize racial bias:
- Change your name to an americanized version. I know someone who did this. Lots of research that proves this point: http://bit.ly/1mcsxdJ
- Take acting classes and learn to speak with no accent It wont be permanent, but you'll be able to minimize your accent for a few hours in the interview. It's akin to speaking with a fake French accent. See: http://bit.ly/2loPQwy
- Pay people to give you mock interviews and record them. Pay someone else to review the footage and give you interviewing tips.
- Improve your appearance: Bleach your hair lighter shade of brown and try to dress comfortably casual.
- Take some dating classes, learn to improve your confidence (or at least fake it for the in-person interview0.
- Improve your public speaking ability: Join a toastmasters group, get a mentor and give a few speeches.
A job interview is a bit like dating. If you're getting rejected during in-person interviews, then learn to "date better". A lot of racial biases here in SFbay are pretty rough. Even if you graduated top of your class at Stanford and had a successful exit you'll be near the bottom of the pile when it comes to dating.
Amen.
There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them.
I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes:
* Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly express their grand ideas, hence the frustration. They will solve things backwards because it's more interesting that way.
* Chinese will cut corners to fit deadlines. They can write beautiful code, but more often than not they don't bother and go with absolute minimal something that fits the spec.
* Swedes, Finns, Germans and Brits are very much OK. Easily the best in terms of working together.
* Canadians and Australians are solid if a bit slow.
* Eastern Europeans are immensely productive hacks, opinionated as hell, but very good for rapid prototyping.
* Indians ...
Now, Indians are arrogant know-it-alls that _lust_ for respect and power. Frequently the source of pointless drama in the workplace. They are very smart, write good code, but they also have very hard time admitting their mistakes. This often makes it hard to work with them as colleagues.
Stereotypes are VERY important to keep in mind, because that's the starting point for every candidate assessment. The best the OP can do is to throw the interviewers off their footing. Say something like I'm Indian, but I was born in Argentina - and, bam, they can't sort you in a default bucket, so they are forced to actually start assessing you from scratch. The same goes for dyeing your hair, fixing the accent, changing the name - it's all for trying to separate yourself from a stereotype and make them view you as an individual.
There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them.
I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes:
* Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly express their grand ideas, hence the frustration. They will solve things backwards because it's more interesting that way.
* Chinese will cut corners to fit deadlines. They can write beautiful code, but more often than not they don't bother and go with absolute minimal something that fits the spec.
* Swedes, Finns, Germans and Brits are very much OK. Easily the best in terms of working together.
* Canadians and Australians are solid if a bit slow.
* Eastern Europeans are immensely productive hacks, opinionated as hell, but very good for rapid prototyping.
* Indians ...
Now, Indians are arrogant know-it-alls that _lust_ for respect and power. Frequently the source of pointless drama in the workplace. They are very smart, write good code, but they also have very hard time admitting their mistakes. This often makes it hard to work with them as colleagues.
Stereotypes are VERY important to keep in mind, because that's the starting point for every candidate assessment. The best the OP can do is to throw the interviewers off their footing. Say something like I'm Indian, but I was born in Argentina - and, bam, they can't sort you in a default bucket, so they are forced to actually start assessing you from scratch. The same goes for dyeing your hair, fixing the accent, changing the name - it's all for trying to separate yourself from a stereotype and make them view you as an individual.
I think this is due to "saving face" aspects of their culture.
I oversaw a team of Indian-based Indians while working for a software company in Austin, TX.
My stereotypical experiences:
- Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it.
- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.
I oversaw a team of Indian-based Indians while working for a software company in Austin, TX.
My stereotypical experiences:
- Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it.
- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.
> - Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it.
That has absolutely been my experience. After so many instances where I found out later they had actually no clue about the thing they claimed to fully understand, I started to follow up with questions like, "OK, now explain to me how you're going to proceed," or "just to make sure we're on the same page, explain to me what ____ is and how it works." Not to embarrass them or anything, just to find out if they were being truthful, which often they weren't.
- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.
I've seen this in members of all ethnic groups I've worked with, but I've found it to be quite common among Indian developers.
One time a rush bug-fix ended up letting a showstopper regression bug get into production. (The getting into production part was entirely my fault.) The dev was calling (Java) toString() on a value that had just been read from a nullable column of a relational database, without null-checking it first. When I asked him, "do you understand why you can't do this?", he would not admit any error, instead arguing "that column should not have been allowed to contain nulls." (The table/column in question predated his presence on the team by years.)
The answer I would have preferred to have gotten would have been something like, "OMG, I can't believe I did something so stupid, I absolutely DO understand what I did wrong and I'll make sure it never happens again." I don't, after all, expect people to make zero mistakes. I just want them to own up to them and hopefully learn something from them.
That's just one particularly egregious example out of many I've witnessed over the years.
That has absolutely been my experience. After so many instances where I found out later they had actually no clue about the thing they claimed to fully understand, I started to follow up with questions like, "OK, now explain to me how you're going to proceed," or "just to make sure we're on the same page, explain to me what ____ is and how it works." Not to embarrass them or anything, just to find out if they were being truthful, which often they weren't.
- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.
I've seen this in members of all ethnic groups I've worked with, but I've found it to be quite common among Indian developers.
One time a rush bug-fix ended up letting a showstopper regression bug get into production. (The getting into production part was entirely my fault.) The dev was calling (Java) toString() on a value that had just been read from a nullable column of a relational database, without null-checking it first. When I asked him, "do you understand why you can't do this?", he would not admit any error, instead arguing "that column should not have been allowed to contain nulls." (The table/column in question predated his presence on the team by years.)
The answer I would have preferred to have gotten would have been something like, "OMG, I can't believe I did something so stupid, I absolutely DO understand what I did wrong and I'll make sure it never happens again." I don't, after all, expect people to make zero mistakes. I just want them to own up to them and hopefully learn something from them.
That's just one particularly egregious example out of many I've witnessed over the years.
> Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch.
That's my stereotype for all engineers.
That's my stereotype for all engineers.
Nice, as an Australian I concur.
I live in Paraguay, could anyone shed light on what stereotypical views/biases I would experience in a job interview as an Aussie living in Paraguay?
I live in Paraguay, could anyone shed light on what stereotypical views/biases I would experience in a job interview as an Aussie living in Paraguay?
That's interesting.
Are you aware of any stereotype about/against italians?
anecdata of 1: I used to work for an italian boss who worked her ass off to become a professor. I had a lot of respect for her. But I could tell that at some level she had been fighting stereotypes (both on the nationality/gender issues) her whole life. She hired an italian postdoc who was basically a walking stereotype. He never came in to work, did shoddy work when he did come in. It was a disaster. Generally I thought of her as a very "tough but fair" boss, there was one time where she got extremely upset at grad students for using the wrong instrument for critical experiments (but really, they should have known better). But. I could see steam coming off of her head in her interactions with him. She eventually quit being a professor, but didn't tell him that she was quitting, basically he showed up to work one day with no job.
My understanding is that there's a north/south work ethic stereotype within Italy, and maybe that the regional attitude differences are not as well appreciated outside of Italy, moreso outside of Europe. She was from the north. Non so de dove il postdoc viene.
My understanding is that there's a north/south work ethic stereotype within Italy, and maybe that the regional attitude differences are not as well appreciated outside of Italy, moreso outside of Europe. She was from the north. Non so de dove il postdoc viene.
In Canada the stereotypes I heard about Italians weren't the nicest ones but I see their reasons
But the perception is usually neutral it seems
But the perception is usually neutral it seems
What kind of reasons? Old stuff like mafia or instead something (semi-)factual like our relaxed relationship with time management?
The Mafia is not "old stuff" in some parts of Quebec (and maybe other places)
Just for curiosity, I would like to hear your thoughts about western europeans ;)
I would like to hear your thoughts on:
* Israeli jewish people
* non-Israeli (eg US) jewish people
(edit: Formatting)
* Israeli jewish people
* non-Israeli (eg US) jewish people
(edit: Formatting)
Too bad you've posted from the throwaway, otherwise I'd give you an UPvote :)
Curiously, if I had to come up with stereotypical descriptions, I'd say I'd come with something similar. :)
Curiously, if I had to come up with stereotypical descriptions, I'd say I'd come with something similar. :)
What's wrong with posting as throwaway. Probably the author of the post want to avoid racial bias over his name ?
An up vote on a throwaway doesn't earn your main account any internet points, so it's be a thrown away up vote.
Who cares about points? I'll sell you some cheap
What's the use of the point if it stops u from expressing your opinion without racial bias.
I am not denying that discrimination is an issue in the US but I think in OP's case in doesn't look like this is his main problem.
Here is why not:
- OP is not hiding the fact that he his Indian. It probably shows in his name, on his CV and in his slight accent during phone interviews. Nevertheless, he has been invited for interviews and has even frequently made it to the final round. If being Indian was such an issue, he would not have made it so far so often.
- even in the final round when he didn't get the job, according to OP, he was sometimes offered another role instead. If the HR department was so very racist and didn't like Indians, then why would they do that?
Of course this is not a proof that there was no discrimination at all, but I would say the chances are greater that there is some other issue that is affecting his chances. Apparently an issue that becomes apparent only in the final rounds.
I would definitely not change his name to an americanized version! The problem is that there is something inconsistent between the impression given in his CV and phone interview and what comes out during the final round. Hiding the fact that you are Indian on your CV could only make this problem worse.
- OP is not hiding the fact that he his Indian. It probably shows in his name, on his CV and in his slight accent during phone interviews. Nevertheless, he has been invited for interviews and has even frequently made it to the final round. If being Indian was such an issue, he would not have made it so far so often.
- even in the final round when he didn't get the job, according to OP, he was sometimes offered another role instead. If the HR department was so very racist and didn't like Indians, then why would they do that?
Of course this is not a proof that there was no discrimination at all, but I would say the chances are greater that there is some other issue that is affecting his chances. Apparently an issue that becomes apparent only in the final rounds.
I would definitely not change his name to an americanized version! The problem is that there is something inconsistent between the impression given in his CV and phone interview and what comes out during the final round. Hiding the fact that you are Indian on your CV could only make this problem worse.
I agree; I thought it was odd that he was being offered other positions (what kind of positions, OP?) and it sounds as though he's perhaps not as qualified as he thinks for the position he's seeking.
All these people talking about discrimination against South Asians... I don't know, every tech company today has South Asians and East Asians and just about every other ethnicity. I've worked on teams with Indians and Pakistanis for decades now, and I have yet to hear of discrimination, or to witness it.
Actually, our economy would grind to a halt if we got rid of all these Asian chaps. And why would we? As a rule, they're smart, they work hard, they're pretty well trained. The one slight stereotype if any, that I would confess to is that the Asians as a group tend not to be mavericks and cowboys. U.S. people and English, and to a lesser extent other Europeans, tend to produce more mavericks and cowboy programmers who question authority, think outside the box, etc. That may be changing, as more Asian folks are raised and educated in the U.S.
OP, I would also agree, don't change your name, tint your hair, and "become Western". Take pride in your heritage, for Pete's sake. Who likes a sycophant? Be yourself. And, perhaps, think about what else you might be qualified for that companies are seeing in you that you're not seeing in yourself. Sometimes you have to go where the market is.
All these people talking about discrimination against South Asians... I don't know, every tech company today has South Asians and East Asians and just about every other ethnicity. I've worked on teams with Indians and Pakistanis for decades now, and I have yet to hear of discrimination, or to witness it.
Actually, our economy would grind to a halt if we got rid of all these Asian chaps. And why would we? As a rule, they're smart, they work hard, they're pretty well trained. The one slight stereotype if any, that I would confess to is that the Asians as a group tend not to be mavericks and cowboys. U.S. people and English, and to a lesser extent other Europeans, tend to produce more mavericks and cowboy programmers who question authority, think outside the box, etc. That may be changing, as more Asian folks are raised and educated in the U.S.
OP, I would also agree, don't change your name, tint your hair, and "become Western". Take pride in your heritage, for Pete's sake. Who likes a sycophant? Be yourself. And, perhaps, think about what else you might be qualified for that companies are seeing in you that you're not seeing in yourself. Sometimes you have to go where the market is.
Sorry, that's overly simplistic. We don't live in the 1950s. Modern discrimination is "he doesn't really fit into the team culture" ie can't really fist bump him and have a few kegs after work bro. The fact of the matter is teams are tribalistic and often that's synonymous with racially homogenous.
This is half true. I'm not Indian but I've been in the Bay Area long enough. I'd say in the PM world, if you apply at companies like ebay, oracle, paypal, etc. being Indian is actually a plus ;) Applying at startups in San Francisco though, I have to admit that you can easily get discriminated. Now, on the engineering side, I can copy/past your message and replace "Indian" by "caucasian".
There is definitely a lot of discrimination in the professional environment in general. People don't want to go outside of their comfort zone. They'd rather see themselves 5 times in a team instead of learning things from different people.
Long story short, applying for a PM role with an accent and some sort of stereotypes in the Bay Area is definitely not a plus. Increase the number of applications you'll find a place. It's a candidate's market right now so people pick whatever they feel comfortable not having to adapt to much. Laziness is king right now.
There is definitely a lot of discrimination in the professional environment in general. People don't want to go outside of their comfort zone. They'd rather see themselves 5 times in a team instead of learning things from different people.
Long story short, applying for a PM role with an accent and some sort of stereotypes in the Bay Area is definitely not a plus. Increase the number of applications you'll find a place. It's a candidate's market right now so people pick whatever they feel comfortable not having to adapt to much. Laziness is king right now.
No offence, some of this is dubious and degrading advice at best. Don't mean to be mean below in deconstructing the above, only clear.
Current heritage CEO of Google and Microsoft prove some things.
You don't choose things like the family you're born into or the colour of your skin. It's humiliating to be treated in a way to try to cover it up like you made a mistake of choosing those things.
Americanized name - If people can learn yoga and chai latte, I'm pretty sure it's not due to a lack of capability to give someone the dignity of learning their name. This isn't the 1970's. People should be free to choose their name, not adjust it for what someone might think.
Cultural norms - I do think there is benefit from being able to navigate and work in a lot of environments and groups. But doing it solely to fit in and be accepted may be a form of colonialism that creates the very insecurities generationally you're trying to type away in a few sentences. The more you learn about other cultures and people, the richer you get.
Accent - Being born and raised in North America, I get to speak perfect english. Sadly, sometimes salespeople in a store won't greet me unless I say hi first. Guess who smiles and always says hi first and hopes future generations might not have to.
I hope some of the below helps, I have had a few major transitions in my career and the things that helped to move to the next step included:
ABOVE ALL - Continue becoming well rounded for yourself, not others. People's own insecurities (including those who are hiring) will naturally want to be around someone who's calm, self-assured, and not phony. If you are swimming around a lot of phonies and not connecting with that culture, it's OK.
1) Always add value. First. - Most people are takers. Don't be one. Won't work if you're not a giver. Learn to be nice, and smart and give freely to good situations and things. The karma builds up and comes back. Whether or not one should need to, generating goodwill seems to help. Finding how to add value and help people achieve what they are doing will always come back. This is the most important thing I practice every single day. Give a shit about others and some, eventually will give a shit back. Don't worry about the one's who don't or the inefficiency of it all.
2) Self-Confidence - Know people who won't want to accept you for any reason will find a reason. Lazy people will find convenient reasons. People have their own hangups. There is a big difference between thinking less about yourself vs thinking less of yourself.
3) Self-directed - embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you. It transfers to other areas of your life.
4) Work ethic - There will always be some you come across who don't like that you work harder than them, or less than them. Ignore them all.
5) 8x - I was told by a mentor that shared some good math: It's not uncommon to have to be twice as good to get half the respect, four times as good to be treated as an equal, and eight times as good so you can't be ignored. It's up to the individual, I guess to see that they end up winning by becoming. You will have to work hard anyways.
6) Be a creator - whatever you create, become good at sharing it online. What you built or have done in the last 2 years is the most relevant things folks will look at. Curate and keep it active and healthy with a good mix of the things that interest you and what you build when no one's looking
7) Out Educate - Whatever you're good at, give the knowledge away. The hard part is doing it. People who interview well but turn out to be garbage are bullshitters will not appreciate it. Companies who get burnt by the wrong hire will remember it. When I meet someone for some work together, I always give them the knowledge I have for free.
8) Be visible - build and share things to demonstrate capability of your work. Don't show off. It will introduce you to people, build your network, and on that basis introduce you to opportunities that are often created. Don't chase social status, but be aware that social proof
9) Communication - I won't tell you to get rid of your accent. But do ensure you know how to communicate extremely clearly when neccesary. If I went to another country, and success might be enhanced by how well I commit myself to being able to communicate flawlessly in that language, I might see that as a tool, but not a flaw or shortcoming in myself.
10) Dating - is for most, largely a blind emotional baggage collection exercise of expecting a complete stranger coming into your life to supplant and rise to the highest relationship in your life. If you're optimizing your life to meet and end up with the right person, improving yourself in the right way will improve the situations and opportunities for that to happen, it becomes apparent that it's more about realizing how to recognize that person and situation, and hope they do the same. When that clicks, one can end up happily, and hopelessly married forever. Don't confuse dating (temporary startup) with the goal of a lasting relationship (established business)
11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases.
I know you might feel excluded from some opportunities, but in a way, maybe it's filtering out the crap for you and you will only meet the people who genuinely want to work with you.
Being a visible minority can have it's perks. Like the exclusionary glances immediately telling you in a room who you can talk to and be a star with, and who you don't need to talk to.
While we don't know your exact situation, know you're not alone, and let the losers and losing situations filter themselves out, it is for the best.
Feel free to connect offline if you would like to chat some more.
Current heritage CEO of Google and Microsoft prove some things.
You don't choose things like the family you're born into or the colour of your skin. It's humiliating to be treated in a way to try to cover it up like you made a mistake of choosing those things.
Americanized name - If people can learn yoga and chai latte, I'm pretty sure it's not due to a lack of capability to give someone the dignity of learning their name. This isn't the 1970's. People should be free to choose their name, not adjust it for what someone might think.
Cultural norms - I do think there is benefit from being able to navigate and work in a lot of environments and groups. But doing it solely to fit in and be accepted may be a form of colonialism that creates the very insecurities generationally you're trying to type away in a few sentences. The more you learn about other cultures and people, the richer you get.
Accent - Being born and raised in North America, I get to speak perfect english. Sadly, sometimes salespeople in a store won't greet me unless I say hi first. Guess who smiles and always says hi first and hopes future generations might not have to.
I hope some of the below helps, I have had a few major transitions in my career and the things that helped to move to the next step included:
ABOVE ALL - Continue becoming well rounded for yourself, not others. People's own insecurities (including those who are hiring) will naturally want to be around someone who's calm, self-assured, and not phony. If you are swimming around a lot of phonies and not connecting with that culture, it's OK.
1) Always add value. First. - Most people are takers. Don't be one. Won't work if you're not a giver. Learn to be nice, and smart and give freely to good situations and things. The karma builds up and comes back. Whether or not one should need to, generating goodwill seems to help. Finding how to add value and help people achieve what they are doing will always come back. This is the most important thing I practice every single day. Give a shit about others and some, eventually will give a shit back. Don't worry about the one's who don't or the inefficiency of it all.
2) Self-Confidence - Know people who won't want to accept you for any reason will find a reason. Lazy people will find convenient reasons. People have their own hangups. There is a big difference between thinking less about yourself vs thinking less of yourself.
3) Self-directed - embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you. It transfers to other areas of your life.
4) Work ethic - There will always be some you come across who don't like that you work harder than them, or less than them. Ignore them all.
5) 8x - I was told by a mentor that shared some good math: It's not uncommon to have to be twice as good to get half the respect, four times as good to be treated as an equal, and eight times as good so you can't be ignored. It's up to the individual, I guess to see that they end up winning by becoming. You will have to work hard anyways.
6) Be a creator - whatever you create, become good at sharing it online. What you built or have done in the last 2 years is the most relevant things folks will look at. Curate and keep it active and healthy with a good mix of the things that interest you and what you build when no one's looking
7) Out Educate - Whatever you're good at, give the knowledge away. The hard part is doing it. People who interview well but turn out to be garbage are bullshitters will not appreciate it. Companies who get burnt by the wrong hire will remember it. When I meet someone for some work together, I always give them the knowledge I have for free.
8) Be visible - build and share things to demonstrate capability of your work. Don't show off. It will introduce you to people, build your network, and on that basis introduce you to opportunities that are often created. Don't chase social status, but be aware that social proof
9) Communication - I won't tell you to get rid of your accent. But do ensure you know how to communicate extremely clearly when neccesary. If I went to another country, and success might be enhanced by how well I commit myself to being able to communicate flawlessly in that language, I might see that as a tool, but not a flaw or shortcoming in myself.
10) Dating - is for most, largely a blind emotional baggage collection exercise of expecting a complete stranger coming into your life to supplant and rise to the highest relationship in your life. If you're optimizing your life to meet and end up with the right person, improving yourself in the right way will improve the situations and opportunities for that to happen, it becomes apparent that it's more about realizing how to recognize that person and situation, and hope they do the same. When that clicks, one can end up happily, and hopelessly married forever. Don't confuse dating (temporary startup) with the goal of a lasting relationship (established business)
11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases.
I know you might feel excluded from some opportunities, but in a way, maybe it's filtering out the crap for you and you will only meet the people who genuinely want to work with you.
Being a visible minority can have it's perks. Like the exclusionary glances immediately telling you in a room who you can talk to and be a star with, and who you don't need to talk to.
While we don't know your exact situation, know you're not alone, and let the losers and losing situations filter themselves out, it is for the best.
Feel free to connect offline if you would like to chat some more.
A few of your remarks are solid in an ideological sense, but sadly the bulk of your comment comes across as "white dude mansplaining to an indian dude why he doesn't have to worry about racism".
Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo that is just not relevant here.
"11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases."
Or like yours, as someone "born and raised in North America, [who] speaks perfect english"
Sorry man, but sometimes you have to accept that you don't have much to bring to a conversation, no matter how strongly you feel about it.
tl;dr: the post you replied to is linking freaking research papers to support what it says and your reply is "don't worry just think positive and everything will be fine"
Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo that is just not relevant here.
"11) Don't take advice from people who don't have experience with what they are giving advice on. Like the post above in some cases."
Or like yours, as someone "born and raised in North America, [who] speaks perfect english"
Sorry man, but sometimes you have to accept that you don't have much to bring to a conversation, no matter how strongly you feel about it.
tl;dr: the post you replied to is linking freaking research papers to support what it says and your reply is "don't worry just think positive and everything will be fine"
Hi, I'm not white. Not even close. I'm not sure why someone as openminded as yourself would jump to a conclusion. Sincerely have not meant to do it myself.
I assure you I'm among the most visible and targeted of minorities.
Racism is sadly, absolutely alive and well. The question is are you going to resign to it or engage with it in a positively unreasonable and relentless way? Ending racism is also a startup.
The first step for me to get used to taking a strangers and making them a human being so it's not as easy to dismiss them, or their experience.
It's concerning you might automatically think what I wrote is ideological. I practice these things every day. Happy to chat about any points above you'd like to know more about me, I just wanted to share what I have learnt by my own experience with the original poster, and the results it has helped achieve.
As for "generic woo woo culture", there's no need to put someone down, my message was for the original poster. If this has a hit a nerve with you of what you feel the world is, I agree it's not an easy place, and it gets harder, but the only peace I'm finding is when I'm getting better.. leave me no choice but to take responsibility for improving myself.
I also belong to another woo woo culture/practice that fiercely promotes manifesting yourself in action in the world through positivity action towards other, treating all of humanity as one and your extended family, and selfless service towards all. So why not be that way.
[email protected], would love to learn more about you :)
I assure you I'm among the most visible and targeted of minorities.
Racism is sadly, absolutely alive and well. The question is are you going to resign to it or engage with it in a positively unreasonable and relentless way? Ending racism is also a startup.
The first step for me to get used to taking a strangers and making them a human being so it's not as easy to dismiss them, or their experience.
It's concerning you might automatically think what I wrote is ideological. I practice these things every day. Happy to chat about any points above you'd like to know more about me, I just wanted to share what I have learnt by my own experience with the original poster, and the results it has helped achieve.
As for "generic woo woo culture", there's no need to put someone down, my message was for the original poster. If this has a hit a nerve with you of what you feel the world is, I agree it's not an easy place, and it gets harder, but the only peace I'm finding is when I'm getting better.. leave me no choice but to take responsibility for improving myself.
I also belong to another woo woo culture/practice that fiercely promotes manifesting yourself in action in the world through positivity action towards other, treating all of humanity as one and your extended family, and selfless service towards all. So why not be that way.
[email protected], would love to learn more about you :)
10x
Especially the American name thing. You can only know the disadvantages of having a non-western name if you've actually used one. There's a reason why so many ethnic (particularly Asian, from what I understand) lawyers use American "professional names".
Especially the American name thing. You can only know the disadvantages of having a non-western name if you've actually used one. There's a reason why so many ethnic (particularly Asian, from what I understand) lawyers use American "professional names".
I have a non-western name, and I get no problems. More curiosity and questions, rather than outright discrimination or anything of that sort.
The other advice really is solid: Don't fit the stereotype when you meet new individuals, and they won't treat you like one. First impressions count a lot, so you can't change someone's mind after the fact without a lot of work.
The other advice really is solid: Don't fit the stereotype when you meet new individuals, and they won't treat you like one. First impressions count a lot, so you can't change someone's mind after the fact without a lot of work.
I have a non-western name. I don't have an American or professional name. Not saying everyone should, or not, only that it exists.
Shortening one's name is a common practice among American names.
Ironically I grew up in a school environment where I was one of the few minorities, and when I got to university, people of a shared background shortened my name.
Shortening one's name is a common practice among American names.
Ironically I grew up in a school environment where I was one of the few minorities, and when I got to university, people of a shared background shortened my name.
What? Why do you think he's white? And even if he was -- his post is full of great advice. Any job candidate (or person, in general) would benefit from implementing those ideas to the best of their ability.
It's not "feel good woowoo," it's fundamental human psychology, and I think it's absolutely relevant here.
edit: I should add that I don't actually recommend blindly taking his, or anyone's, advice. Educating oneself should come first. I would recommending reading "Influence," by Robert Cialdini, if you want to learn more about the type of stuff discussed in j45's post.
It's not "feel good woowoo," it's fundamental human psychology, and I think it's absolutely relevant here.
edit: I should add that I don't actually recommend blindly taking his, or anyone's, advice. Educating oneself should come first. I would recommending reading "Influence," by Robert Cialdini, if you want to learn more about the type of stuff discussed in j45's post.
Thanks for the recommendation for the read, just bought it.
Pursued understanding a little too inefficiently myself, means a lot.
Pursued understanding a little too inefficiently myself, means a lot.
I could counterpoint his/her entire comment, but I'll just briefly say that citing the success of certain ethnicities (backgrounds of the CEOs of Microsoft and Google) is like implying racism/sexism is over because Obama was President and a woman almost became President.
CEO is just publicly visible example, but at every level in Microsoft there're Indian, VP, managers, product managers, principal developers, regular developers. I think you can just browse/search Microsoft product managers thru linkedin to verify that.
I'd be very surprised to see any bias towards any nationality at MS, given >50% of employees are foreign.
I don't doubt that Microsoft might actively try to counter implicit racism which is evident in their demographics, but I do believe there are stats that show there are clear disparities between number of Asians in professional jobs and number of Asians who end up getting promoted from their positions to C-level positions.
There's no doubt "diversity" is corporate bs when it doesn't exist from the top down.
Such reflection also shines a light on how unreasonably hard some people, in any group are having to work to ensure organizations reflect society, and the nature of their sacrifices and commitment compared to others.
Such reflection also shines a light on how unreasonably hard some people, in any group are having to work to ensure organizations reflect society, and the nature of their sacrifices and commitment compared to others.
The main reason I mentioned the CEO's, is outside of perceived differences or challenges, achieving goals often require becoming a lot better than one probably should have had to.
Attitude, curiosity, work ethic, being easy to get along with and work with others go a long way.
Attitude, curiosity, work ethic, being easy to get along with and work with others go a long way.
Respectfully, it's not about counterpointing, or there only being one way to be right.
It's more about developing a positive and healthy inner mental and emotional dialogue that allows you to live in a viewpoint of seeing and acting on possibility instead of worshipping doubts to drag ourselves and others down.
Innovation, improvement happens by pushing yourself to grow, not finding faults in everything around you and in yourself.
No one will be in your corner if you aren't.
It's more about developing a positive and healthy inner mental and emotional dialogue that allows you to live in a viewpoint of seeing and acting on possibility instead of worshipping doubts to drag ourselves and others down.
Innovation, improvement happens by pushing yourself to grow, not finding faults in everything around you and in yourself.
No one will be in your corner if you aren't.
>Sadly, sometimes salespeople in a store won't greet me unless I say hi first.
That sounds fantastic. I wish this was my experience when shopping because I hate being harassed by salespeople looking to make a commission.
That sounds fantastic. I wish this was my experience when shopping because I hate being harassed by salespeople looking to make a commission.
Hah, I didn't say it was a bad thing. Except when you actually do need help with something.
The strangest one (and it is rare) is was at Costco a few weeks ago. The guy just pointed at the payment terminal, didn't say hi. I asked him why he was pointing at the machine and not saying hi. I forgot to say hi first.
The strangest one (and it is rare) is was at Costco a few weeks ago. The guy just pointed at the payment terminal, didn't say hi. I asked him why he was pointing at the machine and not saying hi. I forgot to say hi first.
Looking different and having a different accent can also be seen as attractive. But there are human biases ... I have a theory that if you get a lot of calls from "scammers" (for example Microsoft support, saying you got a PC virus), and they have a special accent, you will form a bias that someone with that accent is untrustworthy.
Change your name to an americanized version. I know someone who did this. Lots of research that proves this point
That is clearly not the problem, since the OP is making it to on-site, and even being offered other roles.
That is clearly not the problem, since the OP is making it to on-site, and even being offered other roles.
>> Take acting classes and learn to speak with no accent It wont be permanent, but you'll be able to minimize your accent for a few hours in the interview. It's akin to speaking with a fake French accent.<<
This is terrible advice. As soon as you start the job, the people who interviewed you will wonder why your accent is totally different, and it will instantly put you on the backfoot.
>>I am almost thinking of halting my job search and finding some kind of hobby to keep me occupied and keep my mind off work.<<
This is a far better idea than just applying for jobs for the sake of it. It could be possible that you are coming across as slightly desperate in your interviews because you hate your current job so much.
Good luck
This is terrible advice. As soon as you start the job, the people who interviewed you will wonder why your accent is totally different, and it will instantly put you on the backfoot.
>>I am almost thinking of halting my job search and finding some kind of hobby to keep me occupied and keep my mind off work.<<
This is a far better idea than just applying for jobs for the sake of it. It could be possible that you are coming across as slightly desperate in your interviews because you hate your current job so much.
Good luck
>This is terrible advice. As soon as you start the job, the people who interviewed you will wonder why your accent is totally different, and it will instantly put you on the backfoot.
Struggling to see why this would be seen as bad advice. The basic human response to a foreign accent is "this is hard work for me to understand them". On a more subconscious level, they're probably wondering if you share the same cultural interests and therefore whether you'd get on. If you are not like this, good on you, but I assure most are not.
Some people can be horrendously unforgiving about accents, the quickest way to experience this is to go to France or China and try to speak French and Chinese to them respectively. (these are the two countries I've found to be the most unforgiving on accent from personal experience).
If someone is presenting you with a solution to a problem (as defined by other people), why is that terrible advice?
In any case, why should the acting classes stop after landing the job? Being able to speak with a native accent in a non-native language should be seen as a virtue...
Struggling to see why this would be seen as bad advice. The basic human response to a foreign accent is "this is hard work for me to understand them". On a more subconscious level, they're probably wondering if you share the same cultural interests and therefore whether you'd get on. If you are not like this, good on you, but I assure most are not.
Some people can be horrendously unforgiving about accents, the quickest way to experience this is to go to France or China and try to speak French and Chinese to them respectively. (these are the two countries I've found to be the most unforgiving on accent from personal experience).
If someone is presenting you with a solution to a problem (as defined by other people), why is that terrible advice?
In any case, why should the acting classes stop after landing the job? Being able to speak with a native accent in a non-native language should be seen as a virtue...
>> This is terrible advice. As soon as you start the job, the people who interviewed you will wonder why your accent is totally different
That's not quite how accent reduction works. I think the goal is to be clear and understandable in the interview. The accent would have no weight on his professional capabilities.
That's not quite how accent reduction works. I think the goal is to be clear and understandable in the interview. The accent would have no weight on his professional capabilities.
That's not entirely correct. I've experienced several cases of inadequate language skills leading to misunderstandings that took months to clear up and that had real consequences. On a day to day basis, bad language skills also introduces friction and frustration.
Learning whatever language you use for work properly and being able to make yourself understood is immensely important.
I work for a company that has a pretty extensive global footprint. Just in the office I work we have around 15 nationalities, and it isn't even a big office.
Just about the only hard requirement I have for people being hired on my team is that they can make themselves clearly understood in english over a dodgy phone connection. Despite the fact that we are a norwegian company, I don't care if people know any norwegian at all. But english they must know. And yes, I have passed on norwegian candidates that could not make themselves understood in english.
And to underline how important people being able to communicate is for me: despite almost exclusively hiring people that are multidisciplinary (just being a software developer isn't enough, you need at least one other skill) I don't care about what education people have and I don't look at their grades.
If you are a developer, the most important language isn't any programming language: it is english.
Learning whatever language you use for work properly and being able to make yourself understood is immensely important.
I work for a company that has a pretty extensive global footprint. Just in the office I work we have around 15 nationalities, and it isn't even a big office.
Just about the only hard requirement I have for people being hired on my team is that they can make themselves clearly understood in english over a dodgy phone connection. Despite the fact that we are a norwegian company, I don't care if people know any norwegian at all. But english they must know. And yes, I have passed on norwegian candidates that could not make themselves understood in english.
And to underline how important people being able to communicate is for me: despite almost exclusively hiring people that are multidisciplinary (just being a software developer isn't enough, you need at least one other skill) I don't care about what education people have and I don't look at their grades.
If you are a developer, the most important language isn't any programming language: it is english.
I am stealing your last line for my personal use.
Clear communication is the most important skill for almost any business person, but certainly for developers.
Clear communication is the most important skill for almost any business person, but certainly for developers.
Is being clear and understandable not an important professional capability? If not, then why does the interview require it?
> A: Please take a seat. As you know, we hired you because you did great on your interview. But we recently noticed that you speak with an Indian accent. Did you attempted to hide your accent during the interview?
> B: Uh, maybe a little? I've been taking accent reduction classes and learned to speak without one, but can't keep it up 24/7.
> A: Thanks for your honestly. Unfortunately we'll have to let you go. Please pack your desk.
> B: Uh, maybe a little? I've been taking accent reduction classes and learned to speak without one, but can't keep it up 24/7.
> A: Thanks for your honestly. Unfortunately we'll have to let you go. Please pack your desk.
I don't know man. I can see "acting classes" under hobbies on your CV not as a bad thing.
I believe employers might ask about it. if you tell them you are bettering your communications skills. It can only be a plus? Because this guys is using his spare time to better himself, instead of watching firefly over and over again in hope they will continue the series.
I believe employers might ask about it. if you tell them you are bettering your communications skills. It can only be a plus? Because this guys is using his spare time to better himself, instead of watching firefly over and over again in hope they will continue the series.
If this conversation happened, you should be glad. That does not sound like the type of place you would want to work at in the first place.
That doesn't sound like a very likely reaction. The acting classes are working, so if A really can't tolerate B's accent, why not just tell him to keep taking those lessons and practicing? Maybe offer to pay for them.
Many people find it uncomfortable to listen to accent. Interviewer feels uncomfortable around you, so he is less likely to hire you. It has nothing to do with ability to do the job.
Not to be mean spirited, but it sounds like you either need to learn how to close or you are going for positions you really aren't a good fit for.
I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get an offer.
You also have to be able to sell yourself as the perfect fit. Trust me, no one is, but if you believe you can become it, it will show and they will believe it too. That's when the offers come in.
Go through your skill sets, really step back and evaluate if it's up to date enough for these newer positions you are going for.
Also, if you go into an interview with the attitude that you hate your current job, it will show. You need to make peace with whatever your current job is, find something positive about it, and reflect on that. This will help you to be positive in your interviews and talk well about your current company, which employers want to hear.
I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get an offer.
You also have to be able to sell yourself as the perfect fit. Trust me, no one is, but if you believe you can become it, it will show and they will believe it too. That's when the offers come in.
Go through your skill sets, really step back and evaluate if it's up to date enough for these newer positions you are going for.
Also, if you go into an interview with the attitude that you hate your current job, it will show. You need to make peace with whatever your current job is, find something positive about it, and reflect on that. This will help you to be positive in your interviews and talk well about your current company, which employers want to hear.
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for
I once said this to a friend. He then suggested maybe I wasn't being as ambitious as I could be in the roles I was seeking. Gave me some food for thought.
I once said this to a friend. He then suggested maybe I wasn't being as ambitious as I could be in the roles I was seeking. Gave me some food for thought.
woah... woah. don't cut off that sentence.
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted.
the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good" -- i think the point is "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".
i can say with certainty it has nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing i can attribute to offers i've received for positions i wouldn't consider myself qualified for. :)
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted.
the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good" -- i think the point is "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".
i can say with certainty it has nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing i can attribute to offers i've received for positions i wouldn't consider myself qualified for. :)
> the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good"
I'm not reading that in the quoted comment. But still
> "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".
why lead with that, to display confidence? Very well, interesting though that confidence is the argument to be made and so the presentation of the response has to agree with the argument. But that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive, when it's addressed at the lack of confidence (which admittedly seem obvious from posting about the issue on HN).
> nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing
Interesting, I'm not aware of the difference. I'd say ambition subsumes enthusiasm.
I'm not reading that in the quoted comment. But still
> "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".
why lead with that, to display confidence? Very well, interesting though that confidence is the argument to be made and so the presentation of the response has to agree with the argument. But that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive, when it's addressed at the lack of confidence (which admittedly seem obvious from posting about the issue on HN).
> nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing
Interesting, I'm not aware of the difference. I'd say ambition subsumes enthusiasm.
> Interesting, I'm not aware of the difference. I'd say ambition subsumes enthusiasm.
i can understand where your coming from: there is probably truth to the idea that... in general, if you are ambitious you will be enthusiastic or vice versa. but:
1. they are not mutually exclusive. to apply for a job you are underqualified for and disinterested in would be both ambitious and unenthusiastic. in practice this might not really happen but...
2. for the purpose of the interview, any enthusiasm is useless if you don't have the charisma to project it. ambition is more of a factor for you to internalize. it is relative to your own experience. enthusiasm is different. it's more important to externalize. i care if i'm ambitious, the interviewer cares if i'm enthusiastic. i don't want to hire someone who doesn't love the job- and if they love it i don't care if they're overqualified (lacking ambition).
> why lead with that, to display confidence?
in my experience, this again is more of an internal thing. it's not that externalizing confidence is valuable (probably more of a liability, really). it's that confidence manifests itself in other ways that are inspiring or attractive. for instance, i am pretty humble and sometimes nervous; i hate selling myself. but when i'm genuinely excited for a position, it's easier to suppress the instinct not to brag.
> that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive ...
your mindset needs to be "i'm really excited to apply for this job because it's totally awesome and i can kick it's ass" -- not "i'm applying for this job because i really hate my current job". the right type of confidence and enthusiasm will only come from the former. i realize this argument is kind of... philosophical?, just trying my best to generalize what's lead to any success i've come by :)
i can understand where your coming from: there is probably truth to the idea that... in general, if you are ambitious you will be enthusiastic or vice versa. but:
1. they are not mutually exclusive. to apply for a job you are underqualified for and disinterested in would be both ambitious and unenthusiastic. in practice this might not really happen but...
2. for the purpose of the interview, any enthusiasm is useless if you don't have the charisma to project it. ambition is more of a factor for you to internalize. it is relative to your own experience. enthusiasm is different. it's more important to externalize. i care if i'm ambitious, the interviewer cares if i'm enthusiastic. i don't want to hire someone who doesn't love the job- and if they love it i don't care if they're overqualified (lacking ambition).
> why lead with that, to display confidence?
in my experience, this again is more of an internal thing. it's not that externalizing confidence is valuable (probably more of a liability, really). it's that confidence manifests itself in other ways that are inspiring or attractive. for instance, i am pretty humble and sometimes nervous; i hate selling myself. but when i'm genuinely excited for a position, it's easier to suppress the instinct not to brag.
> that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive ...
your mindset needs to be "i'm really excited to apply for this job because it's totally awesome and i can kick it's ass" -- not "i'm applying for this job because i really hate my current job". the right type of confidence and enthusiasm will only come from the former. i realize this argument is kind of... philosophical?, just trying my best to generalize what's lead to any success i've come by :)
Never thought of that... I have to go to the mountain about this!
> Not to be mean spirited
In the history of human interaction, has anyone said that and not then followed it up with something arrogant and dickish?
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted
Of course you have. And the jobs you didn't get you later decided you must not have really wanted enough. I wonder how you would have felt about those jobs if you had gotten them.
We get it, you're a super impressive person. You can stop trying so hard to impress us now.
In the history of human interaction, has anyone said that and not then followed it up with something arrogant and dickish?
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted
Of course you have. And the jobs you didn't get you later decided you must not have really wanted enough. I wonder how you would have felt about those jobs if you had gotten them.
We get it, you're a super impressive person. You can stop trying so hard to impress us now.
> In the history of human interaction, has anyone said that and not then followed it up with something arrogant and dickish?
Of course not. I take that to mean "what I have to say I cannot say in a way that is not dickish, so understand that I'm not doing it with the purpose of hurting you".
Of course not. I take that to mean "what I have to say I cannot say in a way that is not dickish, so understand that I'm not doing it with the purpose of hurting you".
He may also be in an industry or an area where given a certain bar of quality and a friend at whatever company you are applying to, you get in. From my viewpoint, it's super common in engineering.
bigmanwalter(2)
> and not then followed it up with something arrogant and dickish
I remember a comedian saying that he likes to say "I don't want to sound racist, but" and then follow it up with something that actually wasn't racist. As in "I don't want to sound racist, but do you have the time?" or "I don't want to sound racist, but can you tell me the way to High St?"
I remember a comedian saying that he likes to say "I don't want to sound racist, but" and then follow it up with something that actually wasn't racist. As in "I don't want to sound racist, but do you have the time?" or "I don't want to sound racist, but can you tell me the way to High St?"
I wish I could remember which comedian this was, I distinctly recall the line as "I don't mean to sound racist, but could you pass the salt" in reference to reclaiming phrases that are usually negated by what follows.
Salt and vi...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4AC50n6cU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4AC50n6cU
Excellent advice. You are there to offer your services -- not to ask for a job! Go in with a humble I-will-kill-it attitude
if OP could only pick one piece of advice from this thread it should be this one. my 2 cents:
1. being able to demonstrate excitement is a huge bonus. i've interviewed a decent number of people. on average 0 were excited about any of the companies. maybe a third were what i could consider genuinely excited or passionate about the technology or the position.
2. taking a few minutes to ask what problems they have struggled with, or what they're working on now, gives you a "serendipitous" platform to sell yourself: take that opportunity to work with them and prove yourself.
1. being able to demonstrate excitement is a huge bonus. i've interviewed a decent number of people. on average 0 were excited about any of the companies. maybe a third were what i could consider genuinely excited or passionate about the technology or the position.
2. taking a few minutes to ask what problems they have struggled with, or what they're working on now, gives you a "serendipitous" platform to sell yourself: take that opportunity to work with them and prove yourself.
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted
Thanks for your account of anecdotal evidence. The thread needs more observation bias.
edit: I think you are onto something in terms of motivation (vs professional care), don't get my sarcasm wrong, I simply doubt you ever applied to jobs you really really didn't want. Call that survivorship bias or whatever.
Thanks for your account of anecdotal evidence. The thread needs more observation bias.
edit: I think you are onto something in terms of motivation (vs professional care), don't get my sarcasm wrong, I simply doubt you ever applied to jobs you really really didn't want. Call that survivorship bias or whatever.
"You also have to be able to sell yourself as the perfect fit." - i hate this one most. I don't give a rat's ass about marketing - I'm a developer and not a salesman. 9 of 10 companies are doing this.
Some company is trying to determine if you are worth spending $1MM on over the next 5 years. Some humans are trying to figure out if you will be good to work with and make the company stronger.
Ignore marketing yourself in the interview process all you like, but you're doing that at your own peril.
Ignore marketing yourself in the interview process all you like, but you're doing that at your own peril.
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I've got ~20 years of recruiting for startups, write resumes (and profiles, etc), and coach job seekers. 50 apps and 15 interviews isn't a bad result in most cases, so you seem relatively effective in getting interviews. Whatever you are doing to get in is working.
Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are expecting someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you present yourself. This is just a guess of course, but do you feel the resume truly represents (and does not overstate) your accomplishments?
How about price? You say you've worked for 4 "brands", so I'd expect you are paid well. Maybe they all like you, but not as much as the others when comparing price and experience of others.
Your mention accent, so that is obviously at least on your mind. Doesn't sound like a huge factor if you're making it onsite 50%.
These problems can be tricky. Stay at it, and maybe ask a past interviewer for some helpful feedback. They will likely be reluctant to give it to you (legal reasons, nothing to gain but goodwill), but worth a shot.
Good luck.
Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are expecting someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you present yourself. This is just a guess of course, but do you feel the resume truly represents (and does not overstate) your accomplishments?
How about price? You say you've worked for 4 "brands", so I'd expect you are paid well. Maybe they all like you, but not as much as the others when comparing price and experience of others.
Your mention accent, so that is obviously at least on your mind. Doesn't sound like a huge factor if you're making it onsite 50%.
These problems can be tricky. Stay at it, and maybe ask a past interviewer for some helpful feedback. They will likely be reluctant to give it to you (legal reasons, nothing to gain but goodwill), but worth a shot.
Good luck.
> Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are expecting someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you present yourself.
I ran into this problem myself. One of the headhunting services rated me as an excellent programmer (I managed to get a sneak peek at the sheet that got sent to the places I recruited at). I think I'm a decent programmer - I wrote a DSL that converts Julia to verilog - but not having any real industry experience, my whiteboarding sucks and I don't do things like "default to hash" even though I actually do that when I program.
Consequently, I got no offers and repeatedly got told they were "looking for someone more senior". Probably for OP, being Asian also totally hurts, because as an overrepresented minority, hirers are looking for any reason to not take him.
I'd tell the OP, try to get hired by a friend.
I ran into this problem myself. One of the headhunting services rated me as an excellent programmer (I managed to get a sneak peek at the sheet that got sent to the places I recruited at). I think I'm a decent programmer - I wrote a DSL that converts Julia to verilog - but not having any real industry experience, my whiteboarding sucks and I don't do things like "default to hash" even though I actually do that when I program.
Consequently, I got no offers and repeatedly got told they were "looking for someone more senior". Probably for OP, being Asian also totally hurts, because as an overrepresented minority, hirers are looking for any reason to not take him.
I'd tell the OP, try to get hired by a friend.
Pretty much all of these other posters appear to agree that it's some form of "here's what's wrong with you", when in fact, none of us can know if that's the case.
But let's look at the numbers. Pretend every onsite interview had a random 10% chance of resulting in an offer. 10% offends certain people's sensibilities, but in this crazy bubble, I'd say for some businesses, it's on the high side. Management is a political game, and it's rigged, often against high performers. One interviewer may have made their employer pass on you because they felt you'd jeopardize their cushy monday-morning work habits, despite the fact the project is months behind schedule and falling further behind.
If you were to publish your experiences to a peer-reviewed scientific publication, everybody would tell you "need more data". 50 job applications is simply not enough, and 7 onsites nowhere near enough. If the search is grueling and bumming you out, maybe let up a bit, take a month or two breather, and try to focus on higher quality at the beginning of the funnel (if you're not thrilled about the job, don't waste any time on it).
But let's look at the numbers. Pretend every onsite interview had a random 10% chance of resulting in an offer. 10% offends certain people's sensibilities, but in this crazy bubble, I'd say for some businesses, it's on the high side. Management is a political game, and it's rigged, often against high performers. One interviewer may have made their employer pass on you because they felt you'd jeopardize their cushy monday-morning work habits, despite the fact the project is months behind schedule and falling further behind.
If you were to publish your experiences to a peer-reviewed scientific publication, everybody would tell you "need more data". 50 job applications is simply not enough, and 7 onsites nowhere near enough. If the search is grueling and bumming you out, maybe let up a bit, take a month or two breather, and try to focus on higher quality at the beginning of the funnel (if you're not thrilled about the job, don't waste any time on it).
I'm in a much more technical role, so it might be different, I agree that 50 application is low, but 7 onsites with no result seems high. My experience is that by the time a company brings you on site, you're in the 3 candidate, or even the only one and this is the last check.
I've had lot of one sites going wrong, as anecdotal as it might be, I mostly changed jobs by a connection bringing me in and once by just a phone screening.
[deleted]
I work in product management and have been an interviewer in hiring cycles for a number of functions: product management, engineering, design, data science, legal, QA, marketing.
Candidates for product management, more than any of the other functions, are often strong but a wrong fit. PMs at B2B companies do very different tasks than PMs at consumer web companies. There are a lot of skills that go into product management, and different companies have very different opinions of their relative value. Look at the component skills: customer empathy, process refinement / project management, technical understanding, data manipulation skills, strategy/business, lateral/upwards management, and vision setting. For leaders, there's also org design and hiring. Almost nobody is super strong at all of these. Where are you strong and where are you weaker? What do the companies you're hiring for actually need?
I'd recommend getting tighter on your criteria for your next job. If you ruthlessly self evaluate, you'll probably realize there are only a few companies out there that can perfectly leverage your experience, so think about what you want to learn and consider lowering your "level" expectations (if you're looking at director positions, look at first-level manager or senior IC instead) to broaden your experience. 15 phone interviews to 7 onsites is solid, but 50 applications to 15 phone screens is low. Most companies are going to be very cautious when hiring external senior PM managers, so consider a stronger emphasis on networking to evaluate fit and the company's needs, so you can tailor your interview to demonstrate the right skills.
You said the feedback is often "interview for a different role". Did you interview for those other roles? What's different about those roles from the one you want?
Candidates for product management, more than any of the other functions, are often strong but a wrong fit. PMs at B2B companies do very different tasks than PMs at consumer web companies. There are a lot of skills that go into product management, and different companies have very different opinions of their relative value. Look at the component skills: customer empathy, process refinement / project management, technical understanding, data manipulation skills, strategy/business, lateral/upwards management, and vision setting. For leaders, there's also org design and hiring. Almost nobody is super strong at all of these. Where are you strong and where are you weaker? What do the companies you're hiring for actually need?
I'd recommend getting tighter on your criteria for your next job. If you ruthlessly self evaluate, you'll probably realize there are only a few companies out there that can perfectly leverage your experience, so think about what you want to learn and consider lowering your "level" expectations (if you're looking at director positions, look at first-level manager or senior IC instead) to broaden your experience. 15 phone interviews to 7 onsites is solid, but 50 applications to 15 phone screens is low. Most companies are going to be very cautious when hiring external senior PM managers, so consider a stronger emphasis on networking to evaluate fit and the company's needs, so you can tailor your interview to demonstrate the right skills.
You said the feedback is often "interview for a different role". Did you interview for those other roles? What's different about those roles from the one you want?
I also work in product management and couldn't agree more with okabat's comment. PM means so many different things in so many different places.
One thing to try... if the shop isn't probing you to find out what you want to do as a PM, then you need to be probing the shop to find out what they're looking for.
One thing to try... if the shop isn't probing you to find out what you want to do as a PM, then you need to be probing the shop to find out what they're looking for.
You could have a problem with your interviewing. You may want to get someone you trust and will give you HONEST feedback to mock interview you and get some feedback. The companies turning you down, you're not going to get any useful info from them.
That and just keep trying. Its a numbers game though, if you aren't getting any offers there must be something wrong with your interviews.
That and just keep trying. Its a numbers game though, if you aren't getting any offers there must be something wrong with your interviews.
> The companies turning you down, you're not going to get any useful info from them.
My understanding is that companies won't give you feedback because they are afraid to get sued. So don't expect any feedback from them. Read some books/websites on how to improve your skills and do a few mock interviews.
If you can get on the other side of the table by interviewing candidates at your current job, it might help build confidence.
My understanding is that companies won't give you feedback because they are afraid to get sued. So don't expect any feedback from them. Read some books/websites on how to improve your skills and do a few mock interviews.
If you can get on the other side of the table by interviewing candidates at your current job, it might help build confidence.
You should seek advice from people who are looking for jobs right now, or people who got freshly hired (within the last 2 months). If you listen to people who aren't in the market now then you won't hear anything relevant. Things change, the market moves up and down, if you're not in it then you're disconnected from reality.
Reality is - it is not a candidate's market anymore for many reasons. It is early 2017, things have changed since the end of last year. The amount of jobs available hasn't changed but the number of candidates has raised significantly. It is extremely high and will remain high until April, when visa applications will stop, as well as a lot of other high profiles who won't be on the market anymore. Right now companies are super picky and treat candidates like crap. They line up 10 interviews, give you assignments after a few calls and an onsite. They reject you even if you haven't failed any tests, etc.
Give it a month or two and it'll come down. You're not doing anything wrong, it's just that a lot of very very good candidates are out there right now looking for jobs. You might be a second/third pick since they bring you onsite.
Reality is - it is not a candidate's market anymore for many reasons. It is early 2017, things have changed since the end of last year. The amount of jobs available hasn't changed but the number of candidates has raised significantly. It is extremely high and will remain high until April, when visa applications will stop, as well as a lot of other high profiles who won't be on the market anymore. Right now companies are super picky and treat candidates like crap. They line up 10 interviews, give you assignments after a few calls and an onsite. They reject you even if you haven't failed any tests, etc.
Give it a month or two and it'll come down. You're not doing anything wrong, it's just that a lot of very very good candidates are out there right now looking for jobs. You might be a second/third pick since they bring you onsite.
Can you elaborate on the visa thing?
Sure, I'm referring to the H1B visa. Applications start on April 1st and usually end a day after (when the economy is good like this year). After they reach their quota the visa application shuts down until April next year.
So from January to March companies also look at candidates who need sponsorship. If you already have an H1B it doesn't count, this is only for new applications.
Though, this year Trump will change everything on April 3rd. Premium processing (15 days) will be stopped, which will make H1 visa transfers harder and more painful for companies. We're talking about a few months to transfer a visa from one employer to another. If you're an H1 holder, you will most likely be stuck with your current employer because companies will never wait a few months for you to start.
With that being said, in April the job market will settle down a little bit. Less candidates and maybe even more jobs out there.
So from January to March companies also look at candidates who need sponsorship. If you already have an H1B it doesn't count, this is only for new applications.
Though, this year Trump will change everything on April 3rd. Premium processing (15 days) will be stopped, which will make H1 visa transfers harder and more painful for companies. We're talking about a few months to transfer a visa from one employer to another. If you're an H1 holder, you will most likely be stuck with your current employer because companies will never wait a few months for you to start.
With that being said, in April the job market will settle down a little bit. Less candidates and maybe even more jobs out there.
The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for.
Some very experienced applicants seem to assume their experience weighs so heavily that their chances of getting the job are better than anyone else's, and that there's nothing else they can do to get the job aside from fill out the form and show up for the interview.
I've had very experienced candidates come to an interview and complain about their current jobs, and complain about how stupid all the young inexperienced kids around them are. I love hiring experienced people, but that is a total turn-off, and an indicator that this person will not try to work with others, will not fit in, and generally will not perform well.
You mentioned that you hate your current job. So my question is whether you're knowingly or unknowingly communicating that during your interviews. Even if you're not saying it out loud, one's demeanor, body language, tone, excitement level, etc. can all expose someone who's unhappy doing what they're doing, and presenting yourself as unhappy being a PM is - in my experience - the worst thing you can do.
Some other ways experience can work against you include that your salary is at the high end so employers feel they can get equally good work for less money, and that your experience has hardened you in the operating procedures of other companies. Employers want to feel that you're open to adapting, willing to learn, and will go out of your way to shed any old dogma you have that doesn't fit, and adopt new dogma that benefits the new company. A PM job also involves a lot of rallying people, so you have to come off as a person who's able to tell a good story and convince others to do what you need and follow your lead.
Good luck to you, and please keep in mind that nobody here knows what's wrong. It could be you or could be racial or could be a bubble job market in the area you're applying... all of these things are absolute speculation. Your question doesn't have enough information for anyone to know.
Some very experienced applicants seem to assume their experience weighs so heavily that their chances of getting the job are better than anyone else's, and that there's nothing else they can do to get the job aside from fill out the form and show up for the interview.
I've had very experienced candidates come to an interview and complain about their current jobs, and complain about how stupid all the young inexperienced kids around them are. I love hiring experienced people, but that is a total turn-off, and an indicator that this person will not try to work with others, will not fit in, and generally will not perform well.
You mentioned that you hate your current job. So my question is whether you're knowingly or unknowingly communicating that during your interviews. Even if you're not saying it out loud, one's demeanor, body language, tone, excitement level, etc. can all expose someone who's unhappy doing what they're doing, and presenting yourself as unhappy being a PM is - in my experience - the worst thing you can do.
Some other ways experience can work against you include that your salary is at the high end so employers feel they can get equally good work for less money, and that your experience has hardened you in the operating procedures of other companies. Employers want to feel that you're open to adapting, willing to learn, and will go out of your way to shed any old dogma you have that doesn't fit, and adopt new dogma that benefits the new company. A PM job also involves a lot of rallying people, so you have to come off as a person who's able to tell a good story and convince others to do what you need and follow your lead.
Good luck to you, and please keep in mind that nobody here knows what's wrong. It could be you or could be racial or could be a bubble job market in the area you're applying... all of these things are absolute speculation. Your question doesn't have enough information for anyone to know.
>The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for.
So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream coming true?
So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream coming true?
Nobody said anything about that. The point is, even if you have experience, you can't phone it in during the interview.
If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.
If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.
Asking that people should "appear to want to job very badly" (and on a later comment changed to suggest they should be "dying for the job") is not merely about not phoning it it, or not being likeable.
Well, I think there is a semantic difference between saying that they "don't appear to want it very badly" and stating that they "should appear to want it very badly". If someone seems diffident, you might say they don't want the job very badly, right? But you wouldn't say that about someone who seemed excited about it. It's just an idiom. You have to show some interest, but you don't have to be desperate.
About the "dying for the job" comment, though, I agree that is going too far. Personally, I think you should project a positive attitude about both your previous job, and about the possibility of working at the new place. But never act in a way that implies you aren't on equal footing with the interviewer. It should be a discussion, not a petition.
About the "dying for the job" comment, though, I agree that is going too far. Personally, I think you should project a positive attitude about both your previous job, and about the possibility of working at the new place. But never act in a way that implies you aren't on equal footing with the interviewer. It should be a discussion, not a petition.
I didn't change anything, that was a separate point in a separate sub-thread. And I didn't say everyone should be "dying for the job", I replied directly to a person who said "I need a job badly". I'm making the point that if you need the job badly, then it's better to say "I want the job badly" than to say "I need the job badly". It's better to act interested than to appear needy, given that you do want the job badly. I did not say that everyone everywhere should go around ass-kissing like crazy, you are going out of your way to take my words out of context here.
Yes? I'm confused what you're asking. I'd say generally avoid ass-kissing, looking desperate and acting over-eager...
Did what I said above seem to imply these things? That's not what I intended at all. Are you interested in what I meant?
Did what I said above seem to imply these things? That's not what I intended at all. Are you interested in what I meant?
>Did what I said above seem to imply these things?
Well, "they didn't appear to want the job very badly" strikes a nerve as implying that.
Why would they need to "want the job very badly" instead of merely "wanting the job"?
And "dying for the job" sounds even worse.
>Are you interested in what I meant?
Sure, but tone matters.
Well, "they didn't appear to want the job very badly" strikes a nerve as implying that.
Why would they need to "want the job very badly" instead of merely "wanting the job"?
And "dying for the job" sounds even worse.
>Are you interested in what I meant?
Sure, but tone matters.
I'm sorry you feel this way. I was only trying to help someone who asked for help. I can't change my experience. The only thing I can do is elaborate on what I meant and provide examples and specifics about what constitutes not appearing to want a job very badly. But you're not asking for those things. Instead, it feels to me like you're trying to pick a fight by jumping to conclusions about my tone, which I don't really know what my tone is as written in text or why it's coming across as so negative to you.
I'm not talking about the difference between just wanting a job and over-acting like it's the only thing in the world. I'm not talking about fawning over the interviewer or pretending like there are no other jobs. I'm talking about people who come into an interview with an overtly negative attitude and say things that make it explicitly clear they could care less about the job and make it explicitly clear that they expect less experienced people to adapt to their ways and not the other way around. This is not the norm of my experience, I am referring to the worst interviews I've ever had, and summarizing the reason in what I thought was diplomatic language.
I suspect you're getting confused by my trying to use mild language and be somewhat nice and forgiving about the kind of interviews I've had. When I say I've interviewed people who don't appear to want the job very badly, I am exaggerating in the positive direction. These (few) people were outright antagonistic to the idea of being adaptable and getting along with others.
There's no way you could know these things based on what I wrote. But there's also no reason you need to assume the worst either.
I'm not talking about the difference between just wanting a job and over-acting like it's the only thing in the world. I'm not talking about fawning over the interviewer or pretending like there are no other jobs. I'm talking about people who come into an interview with an overtly negative attitude and say things that make it explicitly clear they could care less about the job and make it explicitly clear that they expect less experienced people to adapt to their ways and not the other way around. This is not the norm of my experience, I am referring to the worst interviews I've ever had, and summarizing the reason in what I thought was diplomatic language.
I suspect you're getting confused by my trying to use mild language and be somewhat nice and forgiving about the kind of interviews I've had. When I say I've interviewed people who don't appear to want the job very badly, I am exaggerating in the positive direction. These (few) people were outright antagonistic to the idea of being adaptable and getting along with others.
There's no way you could know these things based on what I wrote. But there's also no reason you need to assume the worst either.
Sorry for being too jumpy to conclusions. I responded to what I read those phrases as suggesting though, couldn't know how it was meant.
Perhaps a better wording would have clarified the whole thing, like: "They should appear interested in getting the job" or "passionate about their profession".
Perhaps a better wording would have clarified the whole thing, like: "They should appear interested in getting the job" or "passionate about their profession".
I might need a job badly but I find it difficult to show that I need it badly. It just seems too much drama for me. I just hate these interviews - they are so much about pretending to so much better than you really are, etc etc... But I really don't have a solution to propose either. I just wish interviewers start registering in for different kinds of personalities.
> I might need a job badly but I find it difficult to show that I need it badly.
Okay, so there's a very fine line here. You don't want to show that you need it badly. You want to show that you want it badly.
Need it badly would imply that the reason you're there is for the cash, and you don't care about the company you're applying for or the job you're going to do for them.
Want it badly might likely imply that you're dying to do the job you're applying for, and you're dying to work for this particular company.
A candidate who just needs a job and spends time communicating that they need a job badly is going to lower their chances. A candidate who wants the job badly spends time talking about the company they're applying for, and why that particular company is the place they want to be, and why that particular job is the job they want to do.
> they are so much about pretending
In my experience, pretending doesn't go very far. It's far better to be in a place of complete honesty about your skills and about your needs and wants. When you're honest, and you find the job you actually want, and you apply for that job, it will show and your chances will go up. I've been interviewing engineers for a couple of decades, and I can tell you it's fairly easy to spot people who are pretending about how good they are and how much they want the job, the entire process is designed to weed out pretenders.
Okay, so there's a very fine line here. You don't want to show that you need it badly. You want to show that you want it badly.
Need it badly would imply that the reason you're there is for the cash, and you don't care about the company you're applying for or the job you're going to do for them.
Want it badly might likely imply that you're dying to do the job you're applying for, and you're dying to work for this particular company.
A candidate who just needs a job and spends time communicating that they need a job badly is going to lower their chances. A candidate who wants the job badly spends time talking about the company they're applying for, and why that particular company is the place they want to be, and why that particular job is the job they want to do.
> they are so much about pretending
In my experience, pretending doesn't go very far. It's far better to be in a place of complete honesty about your skills and about your needs and wants. When you're honest, and you find the job you actually want, and you apply for that job, it will show and your chances will go up. I've been interviewing engineers for a couple of decades, and I can tell you it's fairly easy to spot people who are pretending about how good they are and how much they want the job, the entire process is designed to weed out pretenders.
>Want it badly might likely imply that you're dying to do the job you're applying for, and you're dying to work for this particular company.
How about not asking people to be "dying" for the job, but just be professionals?
Except if the target audience is starry eyed 20-year olds to exploit.
When did merely having a good resume and being professional gone out of fashion?
How about not asking people to be "dying" for the job, but just be professionals?
Except if the target audience is starry eyed 20-year olds to exploit.
When did merely having a good resume and being professional gone out of fashion?
I agree with you, I was trying to make my point more clear by comparing the extremes, since it's a subtle point. I realize I run the risk of sounding like I'm suggesting people should be open to taking less than they're worth. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that attitude matters, and that's not a trend.
Please do keep in mind the context of my words. Parent comment said "I need a job badly". You wouldn't walk into an interview and say that out loud, right?
Larger context, OP said he has a good resume and is professional, but it isn't working. There can be more to it, and not because it's fasionable or trendy, but because there always have been and always will be human factors.
Please do keep in mind the context of my words. Parent comment said "I need a job badly". You wouldn't walk into an interview and say that out loud, right?
Larger context, OP said he has a good resume and is professional, but it isn't working. There can be more to it, and not because it's fasionable or trendy, but because there always have been and always will be human factors.
Hey. Many valid point dahart. I guess, in 30s, one needs more sophisticated ways to project more or less the same things as one in 20s. I read/interpreted your "wanting" a job statement, the wrong way :)
When multiple people take it a different way than I intended, then I must assume that it's my fault and I did a bad job of communicating my idea.
I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need.
As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. It would be a bad idea to tell someone they should date you because you really just want to have sex with someone -- anyone -- right? It's a bad idea to date someone you like who doesn't like you, but agrees to it anyway because you pay for meals. It's a good idea to date someone who likes your personality and looks, and someone who's personality and looks you like, someone who you genuinely want to learn more about and look forward to talking to every day.
I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need.
As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing. It would be a bad idea to tell someone they should date you because you really just want to have sex with someone -- anyone -- right? It's a bad idea to date someone you like who doesn't like you, but agrees to it anyway because you pay for meals. It's a good idea to date someone who likes your personality and looks, and someone who's personality and looks you like, someone who you genuinely want to learn more about and look forward to talking to every day.
> As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing.
This is a common analogy, but one I fundamentally disagree with. Dating is about creating a deep personal bond with a single other person. Getting a job is business, and business is fundamentally about two or more self-interested parties coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I think not treating the process as such, and treating it like dating, are at the root of this industry's hiring issues.
This is a common analogy, but one I fundamentally disagree with. Dating is about creating a deep personal bond with a single other person. Getting a job is business, and business is fundamentally about two or more self-interested parties coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I think not treating the process as such, and treating it like dating, are at the root of this industry's hiring issues.
I don't disagree. :) I'm intrigued and want to hear more of your take, though we might be too deep in the comments to have a meaningful conversation.
The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but I only think interviewing and dating are similar in some ways, not all ways, and they aren't the same thing. Of course.
It's true that business is about finances and not bonding, and there are definitely times where it's best to keep that abundantly clear, I think you add a good perspective.
It's also true that I have declined to hire some people primarily due to their negative attitude and declared lack of interest in the company or the job they're applying for, and I know others who've made exactly the same call. I also screwed up a job interview once by being overtly disinterested, and regretted it and it stuck with me.
So, we can certainly disagree about how it's characterized, I don't mind what we call it, but it's still true that coming to a job interview disinterested or only as a self-interested financial arrangement is less likely to score you the job you want.
I can say from personal experience that starting a company truly is similar in many ways to getting married, with all the trials and tribulations. To come to that relationship primarily as a self-interested party simply may not functionally work at all, and it's certainly very common for business partners to be mutually emotionally invested.
Having interviewed some people recently for a more co-founder type of position, the process was more literally like dating than any engineer hiring I did before. People were in fact looking for a personality match, and requested that I take personality tests to validate that. People do look for an alignment of vision, and do evaluate me on the basis that we'll be spending a lot of time together should we pair up. We talked business too, but the evaluation of common goals and personality match, general likability, work ethic, goals and dreams for the future, these things were the primary traits I was judged by, not my technical skills, and not the financial equation. And not by my ass either, so yes, it's not dating, but it was surprisingly close. ;)
The analogy isn't perfect, of course, but I only think interviewing and dating are similar in some ways, not all ways, and they aren't the same thing. Of course.
It's true that business is about finances and not bonding, and there are definitely times where it's best to keep that abundantly clear, I think you add a good perspective.
It's also true that I have declined to hire some people primarily due to their negative attitude and declared lack of interest in the company or the job they're applying for, and I know others who've made exactly the same call. I also screwed up a job interview once by being overtly disinterested, and regretted it and it stuck with me.
So, we can certainly disagree about how it's characterized, I don't mind what we call it, but it's still true that coming to a job interview disinterested or only as a self-interested financial arrangement is less likely to score you the job you want.
I can say from personal experience that starting a company truly is similar in many ways to getting married, with all the trials and tribulations. To come to that relationship primarily as a self-interested party simply may not functionally work at all, and it's certainly very common for business partners to be mutually emotionally invested.
Having interviewed some people recently for a more co-founder type of position, the process was more literally like dating than any engineer hiring I did before. People were in fact looking for a personality match, and requested that I take personality tests to validate that. People do look for an alignment of vision, and do evaluate me on the basis that we'll be spending a lot of time together should we pair up. We talked business too, but the evaluation of common goals and personality match, general likability, work ethic, goals and dreams for the future, these things were the primary traits I was judged by, not my technical skills, and not the financial equation. And not by my ass either, so yes, it's not dating, but it was surprisingly close. ;)
>> You mentioned that you hate your current job. So my question is whether you're knowingly or unknowingly communicating that during your interviews.
I wanted to ask the same.
I wanted to ask the same.
The lack of feedback from interviews is definitely one of the most frustrating parts. But remember that the success rate for onsite interviews is around 20-50% depending on company (companies don't publish this stat, but see for instance https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-who-take-the-Google-on...). Even if you had a success rate of around 50%, you would fail 7 onsite interviews around 1% of the time - which is unlikely, but unlikely things do happen. So my advice would be to keep trying - getting 7 onsite interviews is a good sign. Also try to figure out what areas of interviewing did not go well and improve on those areas.
I've noticed a definite increase in companies doing bait and switches. They list higher level positions to attract good people and then try to offer them lower level positions. That's been my experience.
We don't do this but it might appear that way to a candidate. We're hiring people of all levels and if someone comes in who we feel we like but at a lower level we'll offer them that level instead.
My experience inside and out of companies has been that this tactic is employed quite a bit. I really dislike it but it's the truth. Everyone wants a top notch team and sometimes the only way to get amazing people in less amazing roles is to bait and switch them. You are getting someone who is likely zero risk and will be highly successful in a lower role. And if you ever actually need someone in the higher level role you have someone who can do it.
"And if you ever actually need someone in the higher level role you have someone who can do it."
Assuming that person stays long enough. I would expect either high turnover or low morale in such workplace. Partly because people resent being lied to and this is apparent, partly because the company is full of people on positions they did not wanted to do.
Assuming that person stays long enough. I would expect either high turnover or low morale in such workplace. Partly because people resent being lied to and this is apparent, partly because the company is full of people on positions they did not wanted to do.
That'd be fine with me as long as I'm overcompensated.
It's incredibly annoying since most people are probably in better position than the new lower offer.
I've noticed a definite increase in companies doing bait and switches
Noticed that too. The job ad will have Haskell, OCaml etc listed but all that shop does is crank out Java.
Noticed that too. The job ad will have Haskell, OCaml etc listed but all that shop does is crank out Java.
Well, if you've got "hiring" people on staff already, then it really isn't that much of a cost to do this. You're basically throwing stuff onto the wall to see what sticks. Essentially for free as I'd imagine most "internal recruiters" really don't do all that much other than that anyways. Might as well spam more.
I work in a different job role than you but I can relate to your lengthy search. I was in a senior leadership position prior to taking about a year off. When I wanted to go back to work I did a lot of interviews. I was starting to think that I should apply for more junior positions or take a pay cut, but I went back and hit the books pretty hard and really reviewed all of the interview prep stuff for my field, like studied intently for several weeks. I lined up interviews with 3 top companies in the same week and got 2 offers, and I'm very happy with my new job. So don't give up hope, but make sure you are as well prepared as you possibly can be.
Can you get into more detail re interview prep?
I'm sorry that you're going through this.
You mentioned that the feedback you've received has always suggested that you're a great candidate, but they see you in a different role. What kind of role is it? And, is it possible that that role really may be a better fit for you?
If so, you have a choice. Either change careers or try to take corrective action and become a better fit for a PM gig.
Good luck and again, I'm very sorry. Feel free to email me - my address is in my profile.
You mentioned that the feedback you've received has always suggested that you're a great candidate, but they see you in a different role. What kind of role is it? And, is it possible that that role really may be a better fit for you?
If so, you have a choice. Either change careers or try to take corrective action and become a better fit for a PM gig.
Good luck and again, I'm very sorry. Feel free to email me - my address is in my profile.
I had a very similar experience as you with interviewing and feedback. Some places I felt did genuinely find a better fit and would provide some specifics, others were oddly evasive when I tried to question them further.
I eventually figured out that in many cases they had an internal candidate that they were going to hire and they were interviewing you to satisfy some requirement.
At the onsite, when they ask if you have any questions at the end, I now always ask how I stack up to the other candidates and listen to that. If they don't mention anything, I will follow up with "Do you have any internal candidates?" and often they will just casually mention, "Oh yeah, Steve's great, he'd make a good PM."
Now when I follow up for feedback I would say 80-90% sound genuine about better fit and will usually explain why. Before I would say it was around 50/50. So it's possible in your 7 interviews, 3 or 4 of them weren't real, and they did find a better fit for the others which doesn't sound as abnormal.
I eventually figured out that in many cases they had an internal candidate that they were going to hire and they were interviewing you to satisfy some requirement.
At the onsite, when they ask if you have any questions at the end, I now always ask how I stack up to the other candidates and listen to that. If they don't mention anything, I will follow up with "Do you have any internal candidates?" and often they will just casually mention, "Oh yeah, Steve's great, he'd make a good PM."
Now when I follow up for feedback I would say 80-90% sound genuine about better fit and will usually explain why. Before I would say it was around 50/50. So it's possible in your 7 interviews, 3 or 4 of them weren't real, and they did find a better fit for the others which doesn't sound as abnormal.
> "You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role is not a good fit"
If that's common, then your sales pitch for yourself isn't targeting the job you're applying for. You need to downplay some of your prior accomplishments, if they're tied to whatever the "other" tends to be, and play up more of what's focused on the particular role you have, even if it's weaker.
If that's common, then your sales pitch for yourself isn't targeting the job you're applying for. You need to downplay some of your prior accomplishments, if they're tied to whatever the "other" tends to be, and play up more of what's focused on the particular role you have, even if it's weaker.
Just keep trying. You have just been unlucky so far.
A lot of success comes down to dogged persistence. Here's a great book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010MH9V3W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
A lot of success comes down to dogged persistence. Here's a great book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010MH9V3W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
I just finished the book on audible. I highly recommend it. Here are my notes for it, but don't let this substitute the book.
Talent x effort = skill
Skill x effort = achievement
Grit is required in life. Watch out for claims of otherwise
Grit is not just working hard, but sticking to it for months. Doing what you love and staying in love.
There's a pyramid of goals. Concrete ones on the bottom, like getting up at 8am. As you move up, it gets more abstract. The very top one is the ultimate goal. Grit is holding the same ultimate goal without changing for a very long time.
Grit means doing mid and lower level support goals. "Positive fantasizing" (not focusing on lower and middle level goals) is people without grit do. Short term payoff is feeling good with long term cost of failing.
Story of Buffet's advise: write down 25 career goals. Circle top 5 and do them. Actively ignore others as distractions. Point is time is limited.
Expect to change low level goals. Keep the ultimate goal in mind. Improvise, adapt, overcome.
Grit grows. 70 year olds grittier than 20 year olds. Grit can change.
Grit stages: interest (love doing), practice to be better (improve) than yesterday for years (zero in on weakness), purpose so that work matters (to me and others), and hope (in every stage) so that we get up when knocked down.
People are happier and perform better when their work fit their interest.
Practice: set a stretch goal in one weak area. Seek out challenges not yet met. Seek feedback on what's wrong. Repeat.
Deliberate practice at most one hour at a time, 3-5 hours per day. Deliberate practice is not the same as flow. Challenge above skill level. Requires a lot of effort.
Grittier people experience more deliberate practice and flow. Practice is not supposed to be fun. More effortful practice is more enjoyable (thrill of getting better).
Flow is when not analyzing because most feedback are positive. Deliberate practice is for preparation and flow is for performance.
Quality of deliberate practice is more important than length. 3-5 max hours per day.
Develop a habit of practice, a routine. The author describes rereading last days draft to start off the day. If there's a routine, getting started to practice is easy to start.
Don't be ashamed to make errors. Important to practicing. Emotion-free mistake making.
Purpose starts off selfish, but later must effect other people. Evolutionary roots in both for happiness. People who cooperate are more likely to survive than loners.
Reflect how work help society.
Hope in grit means believing my effort will make tomorrow better. Own efforts can improve the future. I resolve to make tomorrow better.
It isn't suffering that leads to hopelessness, it is suffering that one cannot control.
The optimist are just as likely to encounter bad events as pessimists. But optimists search for temporary causes for the suffering. Pessimists assume permanent causes to blame.
Pessimists say "I'm a loser", a permanent situation. Optimists say "I mismanaged my time," fixable issues.
Pessimists more likely to be depressed and less healthy.
Optimists think of failures as lessons.
Subjective interpretation to objective events give rise to feelings.
CBT aims to treat by helping people to think more objectives by observing self talk and change the bad behavior.
When you keep searching for ways to better the situation, you stand a better chance of finding them. When you stop searching, you are guaranteed to not find them.
Failure is a cue to try harder.
No road is without bumps. Having a growth mindset (believe intelligence is changeable), you believe you can learn to do better. Growth mindset students are much grittier. The opposite is a fixed mindset about intelligence.
People who believe it is their effort rather than natural talent are grittier.
People often have both mindsets. It's important to watch self when slipped up and bring the right mindset.
Grittierness requires recognizing that people get better.
The quote "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" is only partially true. Only by believing we are in control to try to make things better is it the case. Finding a way out of the suffering is what makes us stronger.
Growth mentality leads to optimistic self talk, leading to perseverance over adversity. Starts with belief of being able to improve intelligence, which is proven true. Next is to practice optimistic self talk.
Best parenting style is authoritative and supportive.
Students with 2 years of the same extracurricular activity has higher grit and success later in life.
Rats that have to work to get food last longer at other harder tasks. Learned industrialness. Applies to humans.
Use group conformity to build grit by being around gritty people.
Talent x effort = skill
Skill x effort = achievement
Grit is required in life. Watch out for claims of otherwise
Grit is not just working hard, but sticking to it for months. Doing what you love and staying in love.
There's a pyramid of goals. Concrete ones on the bottom, like getting up at 8am. As you move up, it gets more abstract. The very top one is the ultimate goal. Grit is holding the same ultimate goal without changing for a very long time.
Grit means doing mid and lower level support goals. "Positive fantasizing" (not focusing on lower and middle level goals) is people without grit do. Short term payoff is feeling good with long term cost of failing.
Story of Buffet's advise: write down 25 career goals. Circle top 5 and do them. Actively ignore others as distractions. Point is time is limited.
Expect to change low level goals. Keep the ultimate goal in mind. Improvise, adapt, overcome.
Grit grows. 70 year olds grittier than 20 year olds. Grit can change.
Grit stages: interest (love doing), practice to be better (improve) than yesterday for years (zero in on weakness), purpose so that work matters (to me and others), and hope (in every stage) so that we get up when knocked down.
People are happier and perform better when their work fit their interest.
Practice: set a stretch goal in one weak area. Seek out challenges not yet met. Seek feedback on what's wrong. Repeat.
Deliberate practice at most one hour at a time, 3-5 hours per day. Deliberate practice is not the same as flow. Challenge above skill level. Requires a lot of effort.
Grittier people experience more deliberate practice and flow. Practice is not supposed to be fun. More effortful practice is more enjoyable (thrill of getting better).
Flow is when not analyzing because most feedback are positive. Deliberate practice is for preparation and flow is for performance.
Quality of deliberate practice is more important than length. 3-5 max hours per day.
Develop a habit of practice, a routine. The author describes rereading last days draft to start off the day. If there's a routine, getting started to practice is easy to start.
Don't be ashamed to make errors. Important to practicing. Emotion-free mistake making.
Purpose starts off selfish, but later must effect other people. Evolutionary roots in both for happiness. People who cooperate are more likely to survive than loners.
Reflect how work help society.
Hope in grit means believing my effort will make tomorrow better. Own efforts can improve the future. I resolve to make tomorrow better.
It isn't suffering that leads to hopelessness, it is suffering that one cannot control.
The optimist are just as likely to encounter bad events as pessimists. But optimists search for temporary causes for the suffering. Pessimists assume permanent causes to blame.
Pessimists say "I'm a loser", a permanent situation. Optimists say "I mismanaged my time," fixable issues.
Pessimists more likely to be depressed and less healthy.
Optimists think of failures as lessons.
Subjective interpretation to objective events give rise to feelings.
CBT aims to treat by helping people to think more objectives by observing self talk and change the bad behavior.
When you keep searching for ways to better the situation, you stand a better chance of finding them. When you stop searching, you are guaranteed to not find them.
Failure is a cue to try harder.
No road is without bumps. Having a growth mindset (believe intelligence is changeable), you believe you can learn to do better. Growth mindset students are much grittier. The opposite is a fixed mindset about intelligence.
People who believe it is their effort rather than natural talent are grittier.
People often have both mindsets. It's important to watch self when slipped up and bring the right mindset.
Grittierness requires recognizing that people get better.
The quote "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" is only partially true. Only by believing we are in control to try to make things better is it the case. Finding a way out of the suffering is what makes us stronger.
Growth mentality leads to optimistic self talk, leading to perseverance over adversity. Starts with belief of being able to improve intelligence, which is proven true. Next is to practice optimistic self talk.
Best parenting style is authoritative and supportive.
Students with 2 years of the same extracurricular activity has higher grit and success later in life.
Rats that have to work to get food last longer at other harder tasks. Learned industrialness. Applies to humans.
Use group conformity to build grit by being around gritty people.
I was having trouble getting an offer about 10 years ago. I finally just picked a second geographic area, and eventually was able to find a job there. I'll never know for sure, but it's possible that the market in the Bay Area was just over-saturated with good candidates at the time of my job search. So don't get discouraged; it's not that you're not a great candidate. It could be that there's just not enough good jobs.
Also, do you not want to interview for that other role they're offering you? If so, that's fine -- but then feel good about the fact that you're the one making that choice.
Also, do you not want to interview for that other role they're offering you? If so, that's fine -- but then feel good about the fact that you're the one making that choice.
If you're not a good a fit then, you're not a good fit!
I will say, in my experience, a companies interpretation of what a Product Manager sometimes varies like British weather.. It can feel like a Product Manager is something new, but they've existed in their traditional capacity for AT LEAST 25 years (using a friend of mine as an example).
But recently I've seen a trend for Product Manager job descriptions to vary more.. Sometimes being so vague as to describe some sort of wistful 'jack-of-all-trades turd-polisher'.
Perhaps it's as simple as that. You're applying as an experienced Product Manager to businesses that don't understand the role as a veteran like you does.
You also describe yourself as a Product Manager 'leader'. So you manage other Product Managers? I would think that 'smaller companies' have very few or even one Product Manager, and maybe you're seen as overqualified for this?
Good luck.
I will say, in my experience, a companies interpretation of what a Product Manager sometimes varies like British weather.. It can feel like a Product Manager is something new, but they've existed in their traditional capacity for AT LEAST 25 years (using a friend of mine as an example).
But recently I've seen a trend for Product Manager job descriptions to vary more.. Sometimes being so vague as to describe some sort of wistful 'jack-of-all-trades turd-polisher'.
Perhaps it's as simple as that. You're applying as an experienced Product Manager to businesses that don't understand the role as a veteran like you does.
You also describe yourself as a Product Manager 'leader'. So you manage other Product Managers? I would think that 'smaller companies' have very few or even one Product Manager, and maybe you're seen as overqualified for this?
Good luck.
Look man, getting hired as a Product Manager has a lot to do with personality. It's a role where you are perpetually having to explain, advocate, and negotiate on behalf of various interests. If you don't find a way to make everyone feel like you are on their side during the interviews... if you talk over the head of a VP, if you don't know about the tech, if you don't manage to sound confident in all your dealings... they may just say, "Gosh, we got this guy with 3 years experience... let's give him a go... he's a lot cheaper."
There's certainly a funk that PMs go through... mid-30s sounds about right. If you aren't getting jobs through connections by your mid 30s... it's going to be REALLY hard to land jobs. Don't forget you're competing against people here... 5, 10, 25... who knows. So you may not be doing anything wrong, you may just not be that top 4% for that one role. That one role isn't all roles... each company is going to need something a little different. So just keep trying.
If you can, find a PM who is a little more senior than you -- someone you trust -- and do a mock interview with them so they can give you their feedback. Ideally this would be someone you meet through a friend of a friend so they can be objective as possible.
Have faith in yourself and others will too. Finding the right job take time.
There's certainly a funk that PMs go through... mid-30s sounds about right. If you aren't getting jobs through connections by your mid 30s... it's going to be REALLY hard to land jobs. Don't forget you're competing against people here... 5, 10, 25... who knows. So you may not be doing anything wrong, you may just not be that top 4% for that one role. That one role isn't all roles... each company is going to need something a little different. So just keep trying.
If you can, find a PM who is a little more senior than you -- someone you trust -- and do a mock interview with them so they can give you their feedback. Ideally this would be someone you meet through a friend of a friend so they can be objective as possible.
Have faith in yourself and others will too. Finding the right job take time.
I think your resume is probably more impressive than your ability to interview. Learning to be impressive on interviews is difficult. I would suggest trying out a less impressive resume so you don't lead into your interview with too much of a high standard.
Or keep the resume, since that really leads to initial screens (which he's passing), and learn how to interview better. Like other commenters mentioned, it would help to know the other positions being offered and how they compare to his current+desired positions.
Hey OP. Sorry to hear about your unsatisfactory experiences. Sounds like you've had a successful career-- Don't feel down. Remember everything you've accomplished. To unsuccessful plebs without solid careers like myself, and I don't even know ya-- you sound pretty damn successful already. That's something to be proud of.
Opportunity could be just around the corner. Don't give up now! What if it's that 8th or 9th interview that leads to the position you want? Persevere! You could be super close to the end of the race--i.e. to getting the job you're looking for!
For me at least, sometimes opportunity comes when I least expect it, or when I am feeling most down on my luck...
Just out of curiosity-- Why don't you like the product management position?
I have friends for whom 'product management' is their ultimate dream job, hence I am curious about your experiences. I guess the grass is always greener.
What sort of product? What sort of company? What are the major downsides in your view, which are causing you to be depressed?
Opportunity could be just around the corner. Don't give up now! What if it's that 8th or 9th interview that leads to the position you want? Persevere! You could be super close to the end of the race--i.e. to getting the job you're looking for!
For me at least, sometimes opportunity comes when I least expect it, or when I am feeling most down on my luck...
Just out of curiosity-- Why don't you like the product management position?
I have friends for whom 'product management' is their ultimate dream job, hence I am curious about your experiences. I guess the grass is always greener.
What sort of product? What sort of company? What are the major downsides in your view, which are causing you to be depressed?
So there are a lot of good comments here for you to consider, a couple of things stand out.
1) You're perception of yourself and other's perception of you appears to be different. This can occur for a couple of reasons, either your resume says you're something that people don't see when you talk to them in person, or people around you are giving feedback about you that doesn't match what you believe their feedback would be.
In a company setting you can get a "360" review which is basically a survey about you that you take, people who either report to you or are your "customers" take, people who work with you take, and the people you work for (your boss and perhaps their peers). Those exercises, suitably anonymous, can be really helpful in pinning down mismatches between what you think and what others think. The bigger the gap the bigger the problem.
2) A big influence in person to person interviews can be how you take responsibility and give credit. I interviewed a guy once who was great on paper, really knew his stuff when it came to interview questions, but all of the people who interviewed him mentioned that at some point in the interview he spent some time talking about how another person at a former company "screwed him" or "had it out for him" or "sabotaged the project" Etc. Every time the project that wasn't successful was somebody else's problem. I'm sure he wanted us to see him as not the problem in past failures, but instead by blaming everyone else and not taking any of the responsibility he seemed like someone who wasn't a team player. Nobody wants to work with someone who will turn on them if the project is behind schedule.
I don't have any idea if either of those things apply to you so please don't take it personally if I got it all wrong. Good luck with your job search.
1) You're perception of yourself and other's perception of you appears to be different. This can occur for a couple of reasons, either your resume says you're something that people don't see when you talk to them in person, or people around you are giving feedback about you that doesn't match what you believe their feedback would be.
In a company setting you can get a "360" review which is basically a survey about you that you take, people who either report to you or are your "customers" take, people who work with you take, and the people you work for (your boss and perhaps their peers). Those exercises, suitably anonymous, can be really helpful in pinning down mismatches between what you think and what others think. The bigger the gap the bigger the problem.
2) A big influence in person to person interviews can be how you take responsibility and give credit. I interviewed a guy once who was great on paper, really knew his stuff when it came to interview questions, but all of the people who interviewed him mentioned that at some point in the interview he spent some time talking about how another person at a former company "screwed him" or "had it out for him" or "sabotaged the project" Etc. Every time the project that wasn't successful was somebody else's problem. I'm sure he wanted us to see him as not the problem in past failures, but instead by blaming everyone else and not taking any of the responsibility he seemed like someone who wasn't a team player. Nobody wants to work with someone who will turn on them if the project is behind schedule.
I don't have any idea if either of those things apply to you so please don't take it personally if I got it all wrong. Good luck with your job search.
How are you interviewing? Have you tapped into your network? Do you have past co-worker friends who have left and found jobs elsewhere?
Most companies value referrals much higher than unknown applicants. If you have a friend who can vouch for your work ethic and can give you straight forward feedback, that will be the best route. You'll iterate much quicker. Also friends may give you insight on the inside of their companies about how decision-making is going. Once you have sizable work experience and sizable network, you shouldn't be doing the shotgun approach. In my very first job I reached out to a 3rd party recruiter and they helped me get a job in 2 weeks from me doing it on my own for 2 months (not a software dev). After that, my jobs have all been referral based.
Most companies value referrals much higher than unknown applicants. If you have a friend who can vouch for your work ethic and can give you straight forward feedback, that will be the best route. You'll iterate much quicker. Also friends may give you insight on the inside of their companies about how decision-making is going. Once you have sizable work experience and sizable network, you shouldn't be doing the shotgun approach. In my very first job I reached out to a 3rd party recruiter and they helped me get a job in 2 weeks from me doing it on my own for 2 months (not a software dev). After that, my jobs have all been referral based.
Nothing is wrong with you.
It's neat, your answer is in your question. These companies are coming back and saying they have a different role for you.
Yet, instead of being curious for a change, you turn them down? Bizarre.
Perhaps you don't want change after all, since your skillset is similar, they probably want to help you.
It's neat, your answer is in your question. These companies are coming back and saying they have a different role for you.
Yet, instead of being curious for a change, you turn them down? Bizarre.
Perhaps you don't want change after all, since your skillset is similar, they probably want to help you.
Hrmmmm, I'm interviewing now for general helpdesk roles in my area, and my numbers for comparison are as such:
172 Applications
14 Interviews
4 Onsite
2 Offers
I very much understand your frustration with the job market and how things go, because before I was in my current location, I sent out 200+ applications and got 2 interviews with no responses. The cop out advice is to just keep trying, but I would echo sentiments to find a set of friends to interview you in panel interviews and one on one and see what kind of feedback they give, or if you can do better and get a friend of a friend to do it, that may be better since they don't explicitly know you and may give you more constructive criticism.
I very much understand your frustration with the job market and how things go, because before I was in my current location, I sent out 200+ applications and got 2 interviews with no responses. The cop out advice is to just keep trying, but I would echo sentiments to find a set of friends to interview you in panel interviews and one on one and see what kind of feedback they give, or if you can do better and get a friend of a friend to do it, that may be better since they don't explicitly know you and may give you more constructive criticism.
1) Are you discussing in the interview that you HATE your current job?
That is likely somewhere between a 'yellow' and a big red alert, depending on how you describe it and what prior beliefs the interviewer has about your company/industry.
Let's say you interview pretty well overall, and the interviewer guesses that there's a 80% chance that your previous company is really that bad, but a 20% chance that you are the toxic personality.
In general, a smaller company filling one of its few leadership roles will have less stomach for risk, so any real or perceived warning signs can be grounds for rejection. Even more so if they are small and not growing very quickly.
2) 7 interviews without an offer doesn't mean you are damaged goods, but you didn't mention any feedback or learnings from those 7 interviews. Its ok to ask how you did at the end of an interview. Even without that, what are they telling you without telling you?
* Statement questions like "so it sounds like you don't have direct experience with X?" or "is there a reason why you didn't do Y?" * Enthusiasm/body language changes during the interview - whats the topic when they occur? * Leadership questions like "that does sound like a problem, what did you do to address that?" * Do you feel like you are doing well with some interviewers but not others? peers, senior leadership, engineers, direct reports... they are grading different things
Let's say you interview pretty well overall, and the interviewer guesses that there's a 80% chance that your previous company is really that bad, but a 20% chance that you are the toxic personality.
In general, a smaller company filling one of its few leadership roles will have less stomach for risk, so any real or perceived warning signs can be grounds for rejection. Even more so if they are small and not growing very quickly.
2) 7 interviews without an offer doesn't mean you are damaged goods, but you didn't mention any feedback or learnings from those 7 interviews. Its ok to ask how you did at the end of an interview. Even without that, what are they telling you without telling you?
* Statement questions like "so it sounds like you don't have direct experience with X?" or "is there a reason why you didn't do Y?" * Enthusiasm/body language changes during the interview - whats the topic when they occur? * Leadership questions like "that does sound like a problem, what did you do to address that?" * Do you feel like you are doing well with some interviewers but not others? peers, senior leadership, engineers, direct reports... they are grading different things
If the companies are worth their salt, they should be giving (or willing to give) you detailed feedback. _Especially_ if you got to a face-to-face interview. If they don't, then I'd consider that a lucky miss.
First step would be to ask, at least, the 7 on-sites for feedback. If it's insufficient, ask for more. Explain that you're having trouble at the last hurdle and that their feedback will help. Take that feedback and integrate it in to your approach. Getting feedback can be difficult, especially when it's just you. Consider giving it to some friends and/or mentors to get a clearer view. Choose someone that can bring the most amount of objectivity.
Otherwise... Attend some meetups. Consider blogging and producing some content. Build a profile that projects where you want to be (you should consider, a little, what that might be). If you're passionate and visible in a domain, combined with good skills and experience, then you're gold to these organizations. Often they will come to you.
Also consider being proactive to companies that you want to work for. Engage and see if they have any jobs. Many roles get filled without a Job Description seeing the light of day. Part of doing the above should achieve that.
Finally, consider tackling the problem in a structured way. Interview for a job that's well within your capabilities. Apply for roles that stretch you. These give you a broader understanding on the needs out there in the market (and hopefully what you're capable of).
Good luck.
First step would be to ask, at least, the 7 on-sites for feedback. If it's insufficient, ask for more. Explain that you're having trouble at the last hurdle and that their feedback will help. Take that feedback and integrate it in to your approach. Getting feedback can be difficult, especially when it's just you. Consider giving it to some friends and/or mentors to get a clearer view. Choose someone that can bring the most amount of objectivity.
Otherwise... Attend some meetups. Consider blogging and producing some content. Build a profile that projects where you want to be (you should consider, a little, what that might be). If you're passionate and visible in a domain, combined with good skills and experience, then you're gold to these organizations. Often they will come to you.
Also consider being proactive to companies that you want to work for. Engage and see if they have any jobs. Many roles get filled without a Job Description seeing the light of day. Part of doing the above should achieve that.
Finally, consider tackling the problem in a structured way. Interview for a job that's well within your capabilities. Apply for roles that stretch you. These give you a broader understanding on the needs out there in the market (and hopefully what you're capable of).
Good luck.
"If the companies are worth their salt, they should be giving (or willing to give) you detailed feedback. _Especially_ if you got to a face-to-face interview. If they don't, then I'd consider that a lucky miss."
Really? It's been my experience that companies will not give feedback, at least anything that could be considered detailed feedback, as a blanket policy. The perception at least is that giving feedback opens up the company to potential litigation and provides the company no benefit.
Really? It's been my experience that companies will not give feedback, at least anything that could be considered detailed feedback, as a blanket policy. The perception at least is that giving feedback opens up the company to potential litigation and provides the company no benefit.
Yeah, this has been my experience. The one time I got a company to provide feedback, it was that I "didn't seem assertive enough", which really couldn't be further from the truth (I'm usually getting in hot water for being too assertive), so I assume that it was a randomly chosen from a grab bag of meaningless-but-legally-sanitized "useful feedback" phrases.
Even if someone does provide feedback, it usually can't be trusted, and often times, interviewers can't even articulate why they're passing certain candidates.
Even if someone does provide feedback, it usually can't be trusted, and often times, interviewers can't even articulate why they're passing certain candidates.
When Google gave me feedback, it was that they thought I didn't seem to care whether or not the code I drew on the board actually worked.
This despite the fact that they recruited me through their code jam, in which whether your code actually works is the only criterion.
This despite the fact that they recruited me through their code jam, in which whether your code actually works is the only criterion.
We do recruitment software, and one of the features that just never seems to take life is asking managers why they have rejected a candidate - even though that would be extremely useful for fine tuning the process.
It seems people just don't like to be pinned down.
It seems people just don't like to be pinned down.
It probably boils down to feelings, which seems unfair to introverts and those who tend to undersell themselves (but is probably how 'society' works).
Yeah, when you're interviewing and have more than one technically qualified candidate, you pick based on "culture fit", i.e., "do they seem likeable?"
A freeform box for rejection rationale will probably never get a good response rate, because it's work for people to make up a plausible-sounding explanation for why they liked someone else more (and this explanation is rarely if ever reflective of reality; people make up intellectually-satisfying stories to justify their impulsive/emotional decisions). However, a radio box that offered rejection reasons like "bad technical fit", "bad culture fit", or "good candidate for the future; not enough slots right now" may see better response rates.
A freeform box for rejection rationale will probably never get a good response rate, because it's work for people to make up a plausible-sounding explanation for why they liked someone else more (and this explanation is rarely if ever reflective of reality; people make up intellectually-satisfying stories to justify their impulsive/emotional decisions). However, a radio box that offered rejection reasons like "bad technical fit", "bad culture fit", or "good candidate for the future; not enough slots right now" may see better response rates.
I take your point, but I've seen this from a few sides of the fence and I really believe it to be true. i.e. If they're not willing to give feedback, then they're not worth their salt.
An interview process is a huge investment for a person, especially if it's face to face. We're talking hours, maybe days. Not giving feedback is really an insult.
A poor interview experience is a massive miss for a company. If they don't see that, then I'd take that as a bad sign. Equally, a good interview experience can be a huge positive.
Word will get around, and on Glassdoor. That's a very real risk, significantly more than the threat of litigation. This is expecially true in creative, engineering, etc roles.
The solution is good interview process and training, not a blanket no-feedback rule. That's a race to the bottom.
An interview process is a huge investment for a person, especially if it's face to face. We're talking hours, maybe days. Not giving feedback is really an insult.
A poor interview experience is a massive miss for a company. If they don't see that, then I'd take that as a bad sign. Equally, a good interview experience can be a huge positive.
Word will get around, and on Glassdoor. That's a very real risk, significantly more than the threat of litigation. This is expecially true in creative, engineering, etc roles.
The solution is good interview process and training, not a blanket no-feedback rule. That's a race to the bottom.
I've interviewed more than everybody else I know, and I always get great feedback on my interview technique, particularly when I hear from someone I know who works for the business. Not one of them has ever told me why I didn't get the job, with one exception.
One place I interviewed at, an educational institution, apparently had some very serious behind-the-scenes arguments and some hurt feelings between friends, because most of the interviewers wanted me for the job but one of the decision makers had already promised it to someone else. (Which is illegal, I might add.)
That's the closest I've been to "Here's why you didn't get the job..."
[edit] I'm not including the times someone's discriminated against me for daring to have a disability.
One place I interviewed at, an educational institution, apparently had some very serious behind-the-scenes arguments and some hurt feelings between friends, because most of the interviewers wanted me for the job but one of the decision makers had already promised it to someone else. (Which is illegal, I might add.)
That's the closest I've been to "Here's why you didn't get the job..."
[edit] I'm not including the times someone's discriminated against me for daring to have a disability.
> Word will get around, and on Glassdoor. That's a very real risk, significantly more than the threat of litigation. This is expecially true in creative, engineering, etc roles.
Companies that have declined to give me feedback after an interview include Google, Facebook, small startups and medium sized places. I have not seen any evidence that you are correct.
Companies that have declined to give me feedback after an interview include Google, Facebook, small startups and medium sized places. I have not seen any evidence that you are correct.
> If the companies are worth their salt, they should be giving (or willing to give) you detailed feedback. _Especially_ if you got to a face-to-face interview. If they don't, then I'd consider that a lucky miss.
Very few companies will provide specific, direct feedback even after a face-to-face interview. In fact, their HR has likely coached them not to.
I try to provide both positive and one factor that influenced it not being a match. This sometimes ends up causing problems for my employer, likely mostly because I don't do it well, but it helps me grow in having difficult conversations and I feel some feedback is the least I can do after the candidate spending so much time and energy. I've learned to ask people first, "is it ok if I share some frank feedback?"
Very few companies will provide specific, direct feedback even after a face-to-face interview. In fact, their HR has likely coached them not to.
I try to provide both positive and one factor that influenced it not being a match. This sometimes ends up causing problems for my employer, likely mostly because I don't do it well, but it helps me grow in having difficult conversations and I feel some feedback is the least I can do after the candidate spending so much time and energy. I've learned to ask people first, "is it ok if I share some frank feedback?"
1) Look on the bright side. You have a current job.
2) How do you present yourself? Are you easy to talk to, relaxed, comfortable, confident?
3) Are you well qualified in the areas you are targeting? I'm not just talking about the job function, product management. I'm talking about the specific ecosystem of the products (web, mobile, cloud, hardware devices, etc.) and which industry segment (medical, energy, transportation, etc.)
4) Related to that, if you do have a specific area of expertise, maybe try going after just that area.
5) Really hope this is not part of it, but do you live in a bigoted or (sometimes a different thing) a non-diverse part of the country? If yes, that could be one piece of the puzzle. Not with every interview, but some of them. For that case, short of moving somewhere else, I guess it's mostly out of your hands. Again hopefully it's not this.
6) You didn't mention if you ended up interviewing for the other role they suggested, and if not, why not. Seems like they are offering you a chance to get in the door, so maybe you're just blind to what is being offered. You didn't say what was wrong with the other roles.
In any case to find out if it's related to question 2 above, maybe you should do some practice interviews with local friends or better yet experienced coaches. Could be eye opening if they are willing to give you frank feedback.
2) How do you present yourself? Are you easy to talk to, relaxed, comfortable, confident?
3) Are you well qualified in the areas you are targeting? I'm not just talking about the job function, product management. I'm talking about the specific ecosystem of the products (web, mobile, cloud, hardware devices, etc.) and which industry segment (medical, energy, transportation, etc.)
4) Related to that, if you do have a specific area of expertise, maybe try going after just that area.
5) Really hope this is not part of it, but do you live in a bigoted or (sometimes a different thing) a non-diverse part of the country? If yes, that could be one piece of the puzzle. Not with every interview, but some of them. For that case, short of moving somewhere else, I guess it's mostly out of your hands. Again hopefully it's not this.
6) You didn't mention if you ended up interviewing for the other role they suggested, and if not, why not. Seems like they are offering you a chance to get in the door, so maybe you're just blind to what is being offered. You didn't say what was wrong with the other roles.
In any case to find out if it's related to question 2 above, maybe you should do some practice interviews with local friends or better yet experienced coaches. Could be eye opening if they are willing to give you frank feedback.
When I was working at a start up (not in the league of FAGM), which was just going to IPO 3 months later, I found on a network share a file that contained interview feedback for different people. Thats what companies do when they interview a dozen for a job; they compare candidates against each other. This info is not given out to the public. I can recall two profiles from that file: one, white with an MBA from Kellogg; the other, Indian with an MBA from Cornell. They picked the Kellogg guy as a contractor for first three months, later converted him into full time. That's when I realized I should not get an MBA, since I won't get admitted to H/S/W MBA programs, even tho these schools tell everyone to apply in order to reduce the acceptance rate.
The other issue is the kind of job you have: product management. Every guy in IT wanna move up; so, the first thing was told to these guys to get an MBA. (Now we have morning, evening and day time MBAs, on campus and off campus MBAs. Even Wharton is called MBA factory these days.) So, we have a glut of candidates in the product management.
Top tier start ups don't like to deal with non-elite candidates. Here, eliteness = which MBA school one went to--whether Stanford/Harvard/Wharton; which company did he work for, if any. I remember a guy here, who worked at Yahoo in product mgmt; he is not white, but born in America; he did not not have an MBA from H/S/W, but from somewhere else. FB interviewed him and rejected him later. I know of one who graduated from Stanford GSB, and joined FB in the product management just before FB went to public.
Product management jobs at top companies like Google and Facebook look for eliteness. So, just start talking to people, and get some referral and see how it goes.
The other issue is the kind of job you have: product management. Every guy in IT wanna move up; so, the first thing was told to these guys to get an MBA. (Now we have morning, evening and day time MBAs, on campus and off campus MBAs. Even Wharton is called MBA factory these days.) So, we have a glut of candidates in the product management.
Top tier start ups don't like to deal with non-elite candidates. Here, eliteness = which MBA school one went to--whether Stanford/Harvard/Wharton; which company did he work for, if any. I remember a guy here, who worked at Yahoo in product mgmt; he is not white, but born in America; he did not not have an MBA from H/S/W, but from somewhere else. FB interviewed him and rejected him later. I know of one who graduated from Stanford GSB, and joined FB in the product management just before FB went to public.
Product management jobs at top companies like Google and Facebook look for eliteness. So, just start talking to people, and get some referral and see how it goes.
I had to look up FOB. Didnt get much help here; http://www.acronymfinder.com/FOB.html But I'm guessing you meant http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fob&defid=333...
Look at the patterns. You are in a "product management" role yet you hate it. You are interviewing for a similar role, and they are all signaling that you are not a good fit. My guess is you are telegraphing to these prospective employers that you are desperate, that you will take whatever is out there.
Perhaps it's time for a career change. If you are not made for software engineering, perhaps QA? Maybe you strive for something more technical, maybe scrum master? Technical writer? Graphic designer? Technical evangelist? Sales engineer?
These are things only you know. Perhaps taking a personality assessment, or scanning blogs for career ideas are steps you can take. Maybe answering this question: If you could be an expert at anything, what would that be?
P.S.: I don't believe it is your accent, or your ethnicity. I've interviewed plenty of Indians, Russians, and Eastern Europeans over the years. If they can code and/or know their stuff, they get the job.
Perhaps it's time for a career change. If you are not made for software engineering, perhaps QA? Maybe you strive for something more technical, maybe scrum master? Technical writer? Graphic designer? Technical evangelist? Sales engineer?
These are things only you know. Perhaps taking a personality assessment, or scanning blogs for career ideas are steps you can take. Maybe answering this question: If you could be an expert at anything, what would that be?
P.S.: I don't believe it is your accent, or your ethnicity. I've interviewed plenty of Indians, Russians, and Eastern Europeans over the years. If they can code and/or know their stuff, they get the job.
It sounds to me like you're analyzing your job-hunting process like one would a sales funnel. You're probably thinking that if you put in enough into the top of the funnel, then you're bound to get a closed deal out of the bottom.
My recommendation would be to identify a handful of companies that you'd really want to work for and instead invest heavily in building relationships with people connected to those companies. Attend meetups at the company's office, reach out to employees on linkedin to chat, or find out who the hiring manager is and see if they'd be willing to speak with you over the phone.
During my limited time as a hiring manager, I've experienced the impact that a pre-existing relationship has on the hiring process. Even if I've only had a coffee or phone conversation with someone, they're almost always guaranteed a better shot at landing a job than if they apply cold.
My recommendation would be to identify a handful of companies that you'd really want to work for and instead invest heavily in building relationships with people connected to those companies. Attend meetups at the company's office, reach out to employees on linkedin to chat, or find out who the hiring manager is and see if they'd be willing to speak with you over the phone.
During my limited time as a hiring manager, I've experienced the impact that a pre-existing relationship has on the hiring process. Even if I've only had a coffee or phone conversation with someone, they're almost always guaranteed a better shot at landing a job than if they apply cold.
I was in exact same situation until a week ago. Indian, mid 30s, 4-past companies, 15+ interviews, 7+ onsites and only one went fine. On top of it, I was going through a layoff. I may be able to offer some insight. Lets talk over the weekend. Email in profile. (I am on engineering side)
Keep two things in mind 1) You are the interviewer's bitch. They can ask any and every question from your resume. And in product management, all questions are subjective. 2) Interview is not reflection of your on job performance, its a reflection of how much you can convince a new guy. You only have to convince one company unlike sales people who have to convince someone every single time.
But, looking at what you have written, my guess is that your leadership aspect is not showing up well. Atleast, thats what happened to me.
Keep two things in mind 1) You are the interviewer's bitch. They can ask any and every question from your resume. And in product management, all questions are subjective. 2) Interview is not reflection of your on job performance, its a reflection of how much you can convince a new guy. You only have to convince one company unlike sales people who have to convince someone every single time.
But, looking at what you have written, my guess is that your leadership aspect is not showing up well. Atleast, thats what happened to me.
Take some time off. Instead of getting frustrated at your current job and doing something rash like quitting without a backup plan, take a week or two off from work asap. Give yourself some breathing room.
Think about why you're being rejected - you have just not yet found the job that fits you. So keep looking. It's hard but it will happen. Be positive yaar :)
You also should think of the people in your network who work at companies you're interested in. Finding a good role once you cross a certain threshold is difficult, is it possible that you have high standards and are looking down on some of the interviewers?
Forget about being Indian. If you don't care about it, you'll only be focused on what you bring to the table. You don't want to work in a team where race matters anyway.
Think about why you're being rejected - you have just not yet found the job that fits you. So keep looking. It's hard but it will happen. Be positive yaar :)
You also should think of the people in your network who work at companies you're interested in. Finding a good role once you cross a certain threshold is difficult, is it possible that you have high standards and are looking down on some of the interviewers?
Forget about being Indian. If you don't care about it, you'll only be focused on what you bring to the table. You don't want to work in a team where race matters anyway.
In this market, switching industries can be difficult. If the goal is to switch industries, get in at a (slightly) lower position and work up.
Otherwise, try to stay in the same industry and go for a company that isn't as well known and where your experience would be especially helpful.
What are those "other roles"? How much of product marketing vs product management vs project management vs people management do you currently do? For the "other role" what is the same vs different to what you currently do (not what your job title is, but what you do)?
I feel you will get the best insight if you take a look at the differences between your current day to day tasks and the tasks for the "other roles".
I also think that interviewing for a leadership PM position is much more difficult...
Otherwise, try to stay in the same industry and go for a company that isn't as well known and where your experience would be especially helpful.
What are those "other roles"? How much of product marketing vs product management vs project management vs people management do you currently do? For the "other role" what is the same vs different to what you currently do (not what your job title is, but what you do)?
I feel you will get the best insight if you take a look at the differences between your current day to day tasks and the tasks for the "other roles".
I also think that interviewing for a leadership PM position is much more difficult...
A lot of people are suggesting talking to a friend, which is good. But at your level you might consider a short engagement with an executive coach. 3 or 4 hour long sessions might give you a new attack on the problem and some ideas on how to present yourself differently.
This is a pretty good idea. I was surprised how helpful an executive coach was to talk to when you're having a work problem and you're not sure what to do. I'm not sure how to find one outside of a corporate-sponsored management coaching program, though.
> You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role
What is the other role companies are suggesting you for? Perhaps your resume, which is helping you get so many PM interviews, doesn't match with where your experience actually is. That's not to say you don't have valuable experience, but it may not align with the role you think it does at other companies even if, in theory, the titles are the same.
Another way to put it, maybe your current PM role and experience is, for some reason, misaligned with what it means to be a PM at the companies you're interviewing with?
What is the other role companies are suggesting you for? Perhaps your resume, which is helping you get so many PM interviews, doesn't match with where your experience actually is. That's not to say you don't have valuable experience, but it may not align with the role you think it does at other companies even if, in theory, the titles are the same.
Another way to put it, maybe your current PM role and experience is, for some reason, misaligned with what it means to be a PM at the companies you're interviewing with?
The fact that you're getting onsites after phone interviews is a good sign, it's almost a 2 to 1 ratio. Although 7 onsites is not huge but is a sign that something may not be working. Let's assume you're doing pretty decent on the other fronts and the issue is with onsites. So here are some things that come to mind that only apply to onsites:
- team-fit: this is a big one specially for smaller companies, they wanna be 100% sure this new hire will be just like everyone else so they can all get along, so next time you're doing an onsite do a quick look up of people you'll be interviewing to find as much as about their hobbies, side-projects, etc. as you can and talk about those things
- your presentation: how you carry yourself and behave is another thing that only applies to onsites, you gotta be confident or let your inner geek out if that's who you are, acting super nervous and non-confident sends the wrong signal
- answering the questions the way they want you to, it might have been a while since you last successfully interviewed and got a job so brush up on what the trendy interview questions are for role nowadays, go to Glassdoor look up similar roles and see what the questions were and what answers were the best, you don't wanna deviate too far from those, but you gotta treat like the ACT it's bs for the most parts but that'll determine if you end up at MIT or the city community college.
- team-fit: this is a big one specially for smaller companies, they wanna be 100% sure this new hire will be just like everyone else so they can all get along, so next time you're doing an onsite do a quick look up of people you'll be interviewing to find as much as about their hobbies, side-projects, etc. as you can and talk about those things
- your presentation: how you carry yourself and behave is another thing that only applies to onsites, you gotta be confident or let your inner geek out if that's who you are, acting super nervous and non-confident sends the wrong signal
- answering the questions the way they want you to, it might have been a while since you last successfully interviewed and got a job so brush up on what the trendy interview questions are for role nowadays, go to Glassdoor look up similar roles and see what the questions were and what answers were the best, you don't wanna deviate too far from those, but you gotta treat like the ACT it's bs for the most parts but that'll determine if you end up at MIT or the city community college.
Most of your suggestions are quite standard and do make sense. I think its a little difficult to show that one will be a good team fit. (1) you are Indian, coming from a very different culture (2) One can have more of an introverted personality or a mixture of extrovert and introvert depending on who they are talking to)... Are you an HR?
The biggest thing I look for in the later interviews is the candidates ability to tell a story. Achievements, awards, schooling, and all that stuff aren't very reliable (look at how many cars win "car of the year"). If a candidate can go into detail about a particular event, that means they worked closely enough to it to actually care enough to remember the details. If they can explain the concepts I don't understand, that means they have a deep understanding.
Other than that, there are some aspects of Indian culture that are daunting to a potential employer. "How many people do you manage" is a common question to get during arranged marriages. The American equivalent would be "how much money do you make". It's a lot easier to pay someone more than give them more people to manage. You really need to show that you've bought into the American versions of self-worth, work ethic, and personal responsibility (that last one may seem weird, but it's often the case in India that if someone forgets to do something, you are the idiot for not reminding them).
P.S. Your stats honestly aren't that bad. People used to wallpaper their rooms/corridors with rejection letters before things went digital. Getting more perspectives never hurts though.
Other than that, there are some aspects of Indian culture that are daunting to a potential employer. "How many people do you manage" is a common question to get during arranged marriages. The American equivalent would be "how much money do you make". It's a lot easier to pay someone more than give them more people to manage. You really need to show that you've bought into the American versions of self-worth, work ethic, and personal responsibility (that last one may seem weird, but it's often the case in India that if someone forgets to do something, you are the idiot for not reminding them).
P.S. Your stats honestly aren't that bad. People used to wallpaper their rooms/corridors with rejection letters before things went digital. Getting more perspectives never hurts though.
Just to add one more perspective, and not making any assumptions, what have you done to assess your accent? It's a really tough thing to self-assess.
Is it possible that it's heavier than you think? Depending on the role, if your accent is heavy enough to add cognitive burden for listeners, it could be part of what's holding you back. Fortunately, it's something that can be addressed - it takes work, but it can be done!
Is it possible that it's heavier than you think? Depending on the role, if your accent is heavy enough to add cognitive burden for listeners, it could be part of what's holding you back. Fortunately, it's something that can be addressed - it takes work, but it can be done!
I've had job searches that lasted 3+ months, and involved several hundred applications. Sometimes it just takes volume. A very talented friend had to take 190 coffee meetings to find his job.
When you are fresh out of school, you're hired for general human capital. It's many people chasing many jobs. The best people get many offers. When you're later in your career, it's more of a matching problem.
Net - hang in there!
When you are fresh out of school, you're hired for general human capital. It's many people chasing many jobs. The best people get many offers. When you're later in your career, it's more of a matching problem.
Net - hang in there!
Product Manager is a position which is not always easily transferable.
As a software engineer these are the character traits I most value for a product manager:
- Knowledge about the history of a specific class of products; CAD, Mapping, consumer electronics... whatever it is we are selling.
- Capable of effectively translating customer needs to engineers.
- Capable of effectively translating engineer concerns to customers.
- The ability to prioritize requirements in succinct communication in both e-mail and in person.
Unfortunately "12 years of well known brands" does not mean much to me unless that experience is very closely related to the domain of the company. In a parallel example; I am not going to hire an 12 year expert in kernel hacking to build my SAAS payment system.
Unfortunately (for many people) software trends come and go fairly quickly. Business models of yesterday become the pejoratives of today. If your specific area of expertise has met such a fate... you need to re-tool.
Find a specific narrow niche in the larger business market and become an expert in that 1 thing. Grow outwardly from there. But target it based on your true personal interest... not what you think will be most profitable.
As a software engineer these are the character traits I most value for a product manager:
- Knowledge about the history of a specific class of products; CAD, Mapping, consumer electronics... whatever it is we are selling.
- Capable of effectively translating customer needs to engineers.
- Capable of effectively translating engineer concerns to customers.
- The ability to prioritize requirements in succinct communication in both e-mail and in person.
Unfortunately "12 years of well known brands" does not mean much to me unless that experience is very closely related to the domain of the company. In a parallel example; I am not going to hire an 12 year expert in kernel hacking to build my SAAS payment system.
Unfortunately (for many people) software trends come and go fairly quickly. Business models of yesterday become the pejoratives of today. If your specific area of expertise has met such a fate... you need to re-tool.
Find a specific narrow niche in the larger business market and become an expert in that 1 thing. Grow outwardly from there. But target it based on your true personal interest... not what you think will be most profitable.
Would be happy to privately review your resume and do a mock screening call to see if there's any constructive feedback I can give.
Email is me @ glenngillen.com
Email is me @ glenngillen.com
> in most instances the feedback has been "You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role is not a good fit"
What are the other roles? So you've had a bunch of instances where they're eager to hire you it sounds like, and you hate your current job, so why no grab one of those other, slightly different, opportunities?
What are the other roles? So you've had a bunch of instances where they're eager to hire you it sounds like, and you hate your current job, so why no grab one of those other, slightly different, opportunities?
This indeed can be frustrating. It might help to take a step back and see how the onsite went.
a) Think hard about how the onsite interviews went. Did you get enough sleep and were you fresh ? How did you dress up ? Engineer roles are quite forgiving in these aspects, but product management roles need not be
b) "Great candidate, wrong fit" is not necessarily an honest comment. Often it means, they did not think you were fit for the right role - but they didn't see any red flags so the comment is meant to allow you to apply for other positions. Often companies have blacklist of candidates [for example, if the interview went rather poorly, they cannot re-apply for a certain period of time].
c) Do you explicitly say "I hate my job" or give the vibes that you are desperately looking for a change ?
I suspect it may be your interview style and recommend asking a close confidante about it. For PM type role, it is more about the ability to influence and earning trust. Keep trying! We all have rough patches !
I suspect it may be your interview style and recommend asking a close confidante about it. For PM type role, it is more about the ability to influence and earning trust. Keep trying! We all have rough patches !
With only these 3 paragraphs it's hard to tell what you are doing wrong, if anything.
Like a few people said already, it's very likely that your resume is overselling you, suggestion: remove the bells & whistles.
A few common "red" flags come to my mind: - Tell me something you like about your current job? Nothing. (Really, nada, zap, nothing?) - Why do you want to leave your current job? My manager sucks, my peers are the worst, yada yada. (Blame others, have nothing good to say about your current job) - Why do you want to work with us? I like startups. (Shows zero research on the company, area, industry). - Tell me about a time you had a impossible deadline, what did you do? I worked really hard and communicated effectively (Some utterly vague response).
Find something you are excited about it, be genuine when applying (like prepare a cover letter, explain what you would do in the first month on that position, etc), be humble and show interest on the company, explain how you will make a difference.
Like a few people said already, it's very likely that your resume is overselling you, suggestion: remove the bells & whistles.
A few common "red" flags come to my mind: - Tell me something you like about your current job? Nothing. (Really, nada, zap, nothing?) - Why do you want to leave your current job? My manager sucks, my peers are the worst, yada yada. (Blame others, have nothing good to say about your current job) - Why do you want to work with us? I like startups. (Shows zero research on the company, area, industry). - Tell me about a time you had a impossible deadline, what did you do? I worked really hard and communicated effectively (Some utterly vague response).
Find something you are excited about it, be genuine when applying (like prepare a cover letter, explain what you would do in the first month on that position, etc), be humble and show interest on the company, explain how you will make a difference.
I've been in the process of hiring for product management person. Good candidates (who get interviewed) often show great work experience, knowledge about product management cycles, knowledge of the products they own, leadership directing teams, etc. Really great candidates (who get hired) usually have something extra: an unexpectedly deep engineering background allowing them to understand the actual building process at a higher level, non-trivial insights into customers' unexpressed needs (beyond surveys, data-driven bullshit), etc.
To my view, the interview is to screen out the "business" types who are just repeating or rehashing well-known processes you can get from watching a few podcasts and read a couple books. Teach me something I do not know (I am not a professional product manager, so if the person I am hiring cannot tell me something novel then they shouldn't be a professional product manager either).
To my view, the interview is to screen out the "business" types who are just repeating or rehashing well-known processes you can get from watching a few podcasts and read a couple books. Teach me something I do not know (I am not a professional product manager, so if the person I am hiring cannot tell me something novel then they shouldn't be a professional product manager either).
In america it is super hard to give feedback to applicants, most mature workplaces ban it, and instruct you to route any such requests through the recruitment/HR team.
I think it sucks, but this is way to litigious a society for it to work any other way.
It makes me wonder if there is some opportunity for a middle man service that anonymizes the source of the feedback.
I think it sucks, but this is way to litigious a society for it to work any other way.
It makes me wonder if there is some opportunity for a middle man service that anonymizes the source of the feedback.
It should not be that difficult to give honest feedback to someone who came onsite (from a different country) for the interview.
Fellow PM. It's really hard to get this feedback from people making a real hiring decision, because any experienced HR professional knows the legal liabilities of slipping up and saying the wrong thing, or mis-representing the actual reason why you were not chosen for a position.
If I were in this position (I've done something similar for a friend in the Design industry), I would:
1.) find someone in your LinkedIn network in a senior PM or PM management position from your chosen industry, 2.) send them a few job reqs. from positions where you have applied, your resume, etc. 3.) do a couple short mock interviews (10m-15m) 4.) discuss patterns that emerge, and compare / contrast your experiences in previous interviews.
Likely, this person can be totally upfront and honest about his/her impressions, and how he would frame his hiring decision, or anything that may jump out as to why you might be getting a lot of `NO`s.
Best of luck in the job hunt!
If I were in this position (I've done something similar for a friend in the Design industry), I would:
1.) find someone in your LinkedIn network in a senior PM or PM management position from your chosen industry, 2.) send them a few job reqs. from positions where you have applied, your resume, etc. 3.) do a couple short mock interviews (10m-15m) 4.) discuss patterns that emerge, and compare / contrast your experiences in previous interviews.
Likely, this person can be totally upfront and honest about his/her impressions, and how he would frame his hiring decision, or anything that may jump out as to why you might be getting a lot of `NO`s.
Best of luck in the job hunt!
The ultimate product owner: Mike Row :) Talk like this guy the way he talks about a pencil and everyone will want you
http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/5minute_arguments/mike...
http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/5minute_arguments/mike...
In Yodas.com we've helped hundreds of developers to discover & connect with opportunities. Even though it's not PM roles we gained enough experience that I think would be helpful here.
I'm happy to jump on a call to learn more and give you honest feedback that would hopefully be helpful.
Feel free to drop me a line - nir AT yodas.com
I'm happy to jump on a call to learn more and give you honest feedback that would hopefully be helpful.
Feel free to drop me a line - nir AT yodas.com
I did hundreds. Still alive. Got to work for the kind of company I really wanted to work. PATIENCE. Lots of it.
Something to avoid during a job interview is getting too carried away talking about how much you HATE your current job/boss/role etc. You may not have done that, but it's something to check for which can cause you to sound demotivated/negative etc.
hope i don't sound patronizing, just want to send a friendly reminder that hating your job is, as we say, a good problem to have! :) and a normal one... unfortunately.
that out of the way. not getting feedback is probably not an option at this point. you need honest feedback from someone who is able to accurately evaluate your interview performance. i would be pressing for more honest feedback in my interviews. it might help to humble up a little bit and explain to them what you've explained to us. (post-rejection, of course...)
might be unorthodox but if i were you i would consider scrounging up 30 bucks or something and soliciting an "interview consultation" on craigslist or some Slack channels or something.
that out of the way. not getting feedback is probably not an option at this point. you need honest feedback from someone who is able to accurately evaluate your interview performance. i would be pressing for more honest feedback in my interviews. it might help to humble up a little bit and explain to them what you've explained to us. (post-rejection, of course...)
might be unorthodox but if i were you i would consider scrounging up 30 bucks or something and soliciting an "interview consultation" on craigslist or some Slack channels or something.
On the "hating your job" thing, you really need to internalize better reasons for wanting to change jobs. Desperation is as unattractive in a job interview as it is in other areas of life.
Maybe focus on what attracts you to the company at which you're interviewing
Maybe focus on what attracts you to the company at which you're interviewing
Here's a tip: ask a lot of questions. It shows interest in the role, and keeps your interviewer from asking questions you might get wrong or simply are biased about regarding previous people they've worked with. Strategize. Your interview is only so long.
I don't want to discourage you, but those numbers are very good (7/50 onsite means you got to almost the final stage and considering that you are not applying for every job under the sun - this is a good number - 10/50 would be a great number imo).
Don't give up now even though you feel like it!
While I don't have 12 yrs of experience as you do, I had almost 2 yrs of exp leaving Uni and still had a hard time getting a job!
Just out of curiosity - are you looking for jobs at startups? and are they located in SF/SV?
As a final point, from what I've been told it's a better idea to deal with good recruiters instead. Maybe asking your colleagues for recruiter recommendations and contacting them would get the results you are looking for.
Don't give up now even though you feel like it!
While I don't have 12 yrs of experience as you do, I had almost 2 yrs of exp leaving Uni and still had a hard time getting a job!
Just out of curiosity - are you looking for jobs at startups? and are they located in SF/SV?
As a final point, from what I've been told it's a better idea to deal with good recruiters instead. Maybe asking your colleagues for recruiter recommendations and contacting them would get the results you are looking for.
Interviews are tricky, and it will be very hard for us to guess what you're missing.
In your shoes I'd hire somebody to do practice interviews with. Look either for somebody who does that for a living or, perhaps better, a product management consultant who will consult on your career.
One thought, though: it sounds like you're running from, not running toward. When I'm interviewing product managers, key characteristics include excitement for the domain and energy for the work. That's because they need to have enough enthusiasm for what they're building to get everybody else charged up too. If you're burnt out and just looking to escape, people may be spotting that.
In your shoes I'd hire somebody to do practice interviews with. Look either for somebody who does that for a living or, perhaps better, a product management consultant who will consult on your career.
One thought, though: it sounds like you're running from, not running toward. When I'm interviewing product managers, key characteristics include excitement for the domain and energy for the work. That's because they need to have enough enthusiasm for what they're building to get everybody else charged up too. If you're burnt out and just looking to escape, people may be spotting that.
Simple questions :
- Where are you based, and are you legally able to work where you're applying without too much overhead? Sometimes a company may like you but not be willing to jump through hoops after they realize how hard it will be to hire you, in which case they still interview to check if your talent justifies the hassle.
- Are you always on time, and always replying fast to emails? Lack of punctuality hurts bad, especially in a management role.
- Do you have a tendency to blame your current environment or your co-workers in interviews? No one wants to work with someone who's going to blame them or their company.
- What do you answer to the classic "where do you see yourself in 10 years?" Interview questions? This has a very strong impact on any large company.
- How long did you stay in your previous and current gigs? Job hopping can be a red flag.
- Did you ever get to the salary negotiation phase? If so, were you the one asking first? A candidate asking for too much might not look attractive.
- What is the size of the organizations you apply to? Your experience might not match what they're looking for.
- How do you define product management? Product Management is such a wide net (Design / Management / understanding of tech/...) that what you're currently doing and what the companies are looking for might not match. This happens more often than we could expect.
To anyone else reading this, but looking for a programming job (and not product management like OP), add those questions to your list:
- Do you contribute to open source? A lack of contributions will prevent your interviewer from selling you properly to a team.
- How good are you with algorithms and data structures on a whiteboard? This is like a sport, and as backwards as it is, it is different from actual programming, so you should actually train interviewing as a separate skill if you're not proficient.
Finally, 15 interviews for 50 application is not terrible, answer those questions honestly and you're probably going to do better!
- Where are you based, and are you legally able to work where you're applying without too much overhead? Sometimes a company may like you but not be willing to jump through hoops after they realize how hard it will be to hire you, in which case they still interview to check if your talent justifies the hassle.
- Are you always on time, and always replying fast to emails? Lack of punctuality hurts bad, especially in a management role.
- Do you have a tendency to blame your current environment or your co-workers in interviews? No one wants to work with someone who's going to blame them or their company.
- What do you answer to the classic "where do you see yourself in 10 years?" Interview questions? This has a very strong impact on any large company.
- How long did you stay in your previous and current gigs? Job hopping can be a red flag.
- Did you ever get to the salary negotiation phase? If so, were you the one asking first? A candidate asking for too much might not look attractive.
- What is the size of the organizations you apply to? Your experience might not match what they're looking for.
- How do you define product management? Product Management is such a wide net (Design / Management / understanding of tech/...) that what you're currently doing and what the companies are looking for might not match. This happens more often than we could expect.
To anyone else reading this, but looking for a programming job (and not product management like OP), add those questions to your list:
- Do you contribute to open source? A lack of contributions will prevent your interviewer from selling you properly to a team.
- How good are you with algorithms and data structures on a whiteboard? This is like a sport, and as backwards as it is, it is different from actual programming, so you should actually train interviewing as a separate skill if you're not proficient.
Finally, 15 interviews for 50 application is not terrible, answer those questions honestly and you're probably going to do better!
Are you mentioning in the process that 'you absolutely hate your job' ?
I applied to over 500 jobs, had about 11 interviews, got rejected by 9 out of 11, and got rejected twice by the company I'm working for. (Once a hiring freeze, once they didn't like me) To me, you're not applying enough.
Also I don't count phone interviews as interviews. Those are just to weed out candidates from the in person interview.
Lastly, I think we're missing some info. You must be doing something odd on the phone or you would've had an in person interview. Do you have any friends in management who can do mock interviews with you to figure out what it is?
Also I don't count phone interviews as interviews. Those are just to weed out candidates from the in person interview.
Lastly, I think we're missing some info. You must be doing something odd on the phone or you would've had an in person interview. Do you have any friends in management who can do mock interviews with you to figure out what it is?
I hate to go down this route, but can you describe your appearance / physical style? What do you wear when you go in for interview? Do all the companies that you apply to have your linked in profile?
Your depression and hatred of your current role is impacting your energy and the impression you're making on people. Perceptive people pick up on that, especially face to face. Change your outlook and also push for critical feedback when they reject you. You have nothing to lose by asking every person you interact with in the process for feedback after they've passed on you. Some will ignore your request and some will offer you some actionable advice. Change your outlook. It's going to work out. Good luck.
Why don't you research the job agencies and find one that says it works with candidates to help them with interviews and the like? Since the agency will be paid only when you are placed in a good role, their incentives and yours would be aligned. They would also have no reason to lie to you or hold back on the feedback they received from the prospective employer.
Even if you go off on your own to find a job apart from the recruiter, the advice they give you on candidate assessment will be invaluable feedback for you.
Even if you go off on your own to find a job apart from the recruiter, the advice they give you on candidate assessment will be invaluable feedback for you.
I have a question for people here too. Lets say the company is a startup with 50 or lesser people and has most of the employees under age of 30 (and western).
How prominent is the question that "Will s/he be able to fit into our culture?" ... when it comes to hiring above 30 people out of India, with an Indian accent? (..haha)
I may have thrown too many boxes there... disclaimer: I have been applying to many such companies and I am above 30 Indian guy (with an accent) and many times the company has most developers under 30.
How prominent is the question that "Will s/he be able to fit into our culture?" ... when it comes to hiring above 30 people out of India, with an Indian accent? (..haha)
I may have thrown too many boxes there... disclaimer: I have been applying to many such companies and I am above 30 Indian guy (with an accent) and many times the company has most developers under 30.
You are not convincing them that you will be a good hire.
Your article talks about what you want and how you feel.
Consider what those companies want and how they feel and try to determine why they failed to pick you over another candidate.
Talk to people you trust and ask for honest feedback on your weaknesses. Compare those to the things you learned during the interview.
Improve your skill, your communication style, and your contacts.
Continue to drive for the role you want, you will get it when you shape yourself into someone that can genuinely convince people you have the right stuff.
Your article talks about what you want and how you feel.
Consider what those companies want and how they feel and try to determine why they failed to pick you over another candidate.
Talk to people you trust and ask for honest feedback on your weaknesses. Compare those to the things you learned during the interview.
Improve your skill, your communication style, and your contacts.
Continue to drive for the role you want, you will get it when you shape yourself into someone that can genuinely convince people you have the right stuff.
It's hard to be helpful here without specifics. What sorts of jobs are you applying for at which companies? What industry are you in? What are the brands you've worked at before? What industry switch are you hoping to make? Do they get to a background check stage or no? 7 offsites to 0 offers is a pretty steep drop off but if, for example, you were only interviewing for VP of Product at series A startups in the Bay Area backed by Sequoia and Benchmark, then that's not unexpected.
If you hate your current job, why would a company want to hire you for a similar job?
The number of QA managers we rejected because they said they don't want to be QA managers ... eesh.
The number of QA managers we rejected because they said they don't want to be QA managers ... eesh.
Hi, fully understand your desire to move on from a frustrating situation. Good luck, keep at it, man. Based on your post, it seems like you can land the interview, including final in-person ones. I suspect your body language probably communicates that you are too desperate. Hiring managers (consciously and unconsciously) resist hiring folks when they sense desperation. My recommendation to you is getting a coach to provide pointers for in-person interviews.
You mentioned about 4 companies - Are you in Indian Outsourced companies? Now you trying to join startups? If so,sorry to say, there is wide spread perception, most Indian outsourced managers are not technically good. I agree with them too.
If you are one of those rare exception and technically sound person, then you need to keep trying to overcome the general perception created by fellow Indian managers. Good luck.
If you are one of those rare exception and technically sound person, then you need to keep trying to overcome the general perception created by fellow Indian managers. Good luck.
The one thing that strikes me is "I hate my current job". If you can afford it, have you given thoughts to take a different type of job at a lower level (project manager, or something more technical), something where you are less emotionally invested?
I'm wondering if you come across as hating your current job so much that you are ready to take anything that will get you off you current job
I'm wondering if you come across as hating your current job so much that you are ready to take anything that will get you off you current job
As an Asian male (overrepresented minority) remember that hirers are often looking for any legal reason to not hire you. The standard employment narrative does not apply to you.
You may have to beat it statistically (more interviews) or go with the "unspoken" employment narratives - get hired by a friend, figure out how to get someone to make a position for you.
You may have to beat it statistically (more interviews) or go with the "unspoken" employment narratives - get hired by a friend, figure out how to get someone to make a position for you.
Keep at it. Keep leveraging your network. Even people you interviewed with who didn't call you back could be network potential. If there is racial bias you have to keep persevering because you won't be able to change them, and the alternative is a job you hate. Maybe you could look to move to a different department within your current firm?
Maybe you're depressed, and that is why you hate your job.
I'm not sure how your 'leadership' translates to all this. How can you properly lead the product dept. when you hate your job and are depressed?
And why would you want to switch to the same job, the one you hate so much, but at a different company?
Just curious what's your visa situation?
This is what I'm curious about too. It's not clear if this is a factor in your case. The Visa process can be an expensive and very long process, and I have seen companies turning down great candidates because they can't afford to wait a year to MAYBE get the candidate a visa.
First question: what is the feedback from the people you have interviewed with?
Have you considered looking for jobs that aren't in product management? Do you have any other strengths you could leverage? Could you learn and develop a skill that would open up more jobs to you while at your current job (eg in your spare time)?
Have you considered looking for jobs that aren't in product management? Do you have any other strengths you could leverage? Could you learn and develop a skill that would open up more jobs to you while at your current job (eg in your spare time)?
"You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role is not a good fit"
Why not interview for this other role?
It sounds like people like you. They want to hire you. But they perhaps they want to hire you for a slightly different role. Why not consider this role?
Why not interview for this other role?
It sounds like people like you. They want to hire you. But they perhaps they want to hire you for a slightly different role. Why not consider this role?
How much product management experience do you have ? What type of companies have you had PM experience at? What were you doing before product ?
It's very hard to get people to diagnose the problem online but maybe if you give more details we can help you out. Otherwise reach out to a trusted colleague.
It's very hard to get people to diagnose the problem online but maybe if you give more details we can help you out. Otherwise reach out to a trusted colleague.
Keep positive man - as you know so much of product development is about feedback and iteration. I would really push your ex-interviewers or even the recruiting folks to share their exact thoughts on what didn't go well - even if you have to go through a few people to get the truth.
Hope it's not due to https://qz.com/918834/indians-around-the-world-are-realizing...
What roles are you applying for? Perhaps there are other roles you would be a better fit for and you could try applying for those.
Otherwise, as others say, just be persistent. Sometimes you have a run of bad luck but it will pass. Don't read too much into it.
Otherwise, as others say, just be persistent. Sometimes you have a run of bad luck but it will pass. Don't read too much into it.
If you're willing to apply to another company (LocalMotion by Zipcar, San Mateo, CA), I'll give you comprehensive honest feedback on your onsite, whether or not you get the job. We're looking for more Product people.
This is not a rely to the original question. I just want to express my surprise that so many people here giving comprehensive and insightful opinions to the question. I earned a lot by reading these replies. Way to go guys!
You're moving to a smaller company, so I hope your comp expectations are smaller too.
This would be my first guess. Ask for less money. Even phone up places where you were rejected and say your expectations have changed.
This would be my first guess. Ask for less money. Even phone up places where you were rejected and say your expectations have changed.
I just think it's the nature of your field. The market for PMs is congested so when you're actually recruiting a PM you can set the bar very high and still expect a great number of applicants.
Was in a similar boat, also Indian, I don't know what the cutoff for FOB is, I been hear 7 years now. This happened about 5 years back, after I learned this one weird trick that I am about to espouse, I couldn't close interviews. Since then I have been getting multiple offers each time I look for a job, and I am currently in a senior role at a "Fortune 10 best places to work for”.
(Accent yes, but no one has asked me to repeat anything in many years. In recent times folks have asked me if I was born in the US. So let's get that out of the way)
Ok, what is the one weird trick. Its actually two.
1. Know yourself: I wasn't really into software engineering, I was a scientist, and I really wanted to get into SE because those jobs were more abundant, esply when you are junior you can't crack into the scientist job unless you have a Phd - I dropped out. When I am at an interview, I couldn't help but convey that deep down I really didn't want this job. This will show, you could pretend on the phone, its harder when in person. Folks still do it, I couldn't. Understand who you are, and that you really want this job, you are hungry for it. Go ahead and show it, let them feel your animal energy! For all his faults, and almost all of his person is a fault, the current US president has "raw animal energy” (RAE), which people like, love even. You can get a job you are not even qualified for by just having this RAE. So get to know some of that in your own personality.
2. Dude(or girl) I can't stress this second point enough. One of the biggest things that is different about Indian culture is this. In India if you are confident and know a lot - you are trained to show that power by being Quiet. Silent. Calm. This is the case with many cultures. It is not however the case with American business culture. Please read my point above about bringing out your animal awesomeness. In the US, I don't know how else to say this: being bombastic is what will pass for confidence. (Bombastic from an Indian perspective, of course it is just awesomeness from the American perspective). Show your energy, jump around. I know, it will be very unnatural if you are new to it. So I’d recommend acting classes like some of the other comments, but I didn’t take any. I was able to channel my inner panda by just being aware of this problem.
Think of your personality itself as having an accent. It is not a crime to have an accent, but if you can tone it down, it helps everyone involved. This is what you need to do. You have to not only be confident, you have also to convey it effectively in the language of the culture you are in.
(Accent yes, but no one has asked me to repeat anything in many years. In recent times folks have asked me if I was born in the US. So let's get that out of the way)
Ok, what is the one weird trick. Its actually two.
1. Know yourself: I wasn't really into software engineering, I was a scientist, and I really wanted to get into SE because those jobs were more abundant, esply when you are junior you can't crack into the scientist job unless you have a Phd - I dropped out. When I am at an interview, I couldn't help but convey that deep down I really didn't want this job. This will show, you could pretend on the phone, its harder when in person. Folks still do it, I couldn't. Understand who you are, and that you really want this job, you are hungry for it. Go ahead and show it, let them feel your animal energy! For all his faults, and almost all of his person is a fault, the current US president has "raw animal energy” (RAE), which people like, love even. You can get a job you are not even qualified for by just having this RAE. So get to know some of that in your own personality.
2. Dude(or girl) I can't stress this second point enough. One of the biggest things that is different about Indian culture is this. In India if you are confident and know a lot - you are trained to show that power by being Quiet. Silent. Calm. This is the case with many cultures. It is not however the case with American business culture. Please read my point above about bringing out your animal awesomeness. In the US, I don't know how else to say this: being bombastic is what will pass for confidence. (Bombastic from an Indian perspective, of course it is just awesomeness from the American perspective). Show your energy, jump around. I know, it will be very unnatural if you are new to it. So I’d recommend acting classes like some of the other comments, but I didn’t take any. I was able to channel my inner panda by just being aware of this problem.
Think of your personality itself as having an accent. It is not a crime to have an accent, but if you can tone it down, it helps everyone involved. This is what you need to do. You have to not only be confident, you have also to convey it effectively in the language of the culture you are in.
Are you charming? Are you sociable? How is your appearance. Is your accent really not that bad? You need to find honest feedback on these things.
These are a few things that can only be seen in person
I was a technical recruiter for several years, and am now a software engineer, doing both in San Francisco. If you'd like, I'd be happy to chat with you. My email is in my profile.
[deleted]
If you hate your current job get away there as fast as you can. Maybe it's a good start to get interviewed for one of the other roles as you said? Why not?
What about checking out some sort of website like interviewing.io where you will get assessment on your interview skills?
What does a product manager leader do? I mean "do" in the "actual productivity" meaning.
What is the alternate position you get offered? Product management, but at a lower level?
You're clearly not FOB based on your written English. Don't demean yourself.
Maybe spend a few bucks on a career counselor?
New term: Product Owner :)
How long have the onsite interviews been? An in-person interview with at least three people and at least three hours total duration is what I call "a serious interview." At least for software engineers, there seems to be a roughly 1 in 2 to 1 in 3 chance of a job offer if you get a "serious interview." In general, shorter in-person interviews -- say one person for 1/2 to 1 hour are not very serious and can have very low success rate, usually at best they lead to a further "serious interview."
If all seven onsite interviews have been "serious interviews" then zero job offers is a bit low, but still could be just bad luck: 1 chance in 2 to the 7 (128).
That said, mid thirties -- thirty-five to be exact -- is the age where employees in the high technology industry start to report increased difficulties finding jobs. Look around -- not a lot of people who look over thirty-five.
Very few companies seem to be looking for 10+ years of experience. Most job postings on LinkedIn and other job boards will ask for 3-5 or 3-7 years of experience. Some for ten years, but not that many. You state you have twelve (12) years of experience.
It is difficult to know the reasons for this pattern in high tech. Probably all of these contribute:
o conscious and sub-conscious age discrimination
o companies are looking for young people who can work long hours, unpaid overtime. Overall stamina does decline with age. It is also harder to get more experienced people to work unpaid overtime as they recognize what is happening -- aren't fooled by unrealistic schedules, manufactured crunches over trade show appearances, and other deceptions and demand to be paid.
o Companies and managers feel threatened by employees who know a lot, preferring young people with little or limited experience.
US born "native" white men with perfect English report same difficulties frequently. It may have little to do with being Indian or having an accent, although it is surely good advice to work on accent and mastery of American English which differs in a number of ways from Indian English. Indian English is derived from British English in the 1940's and 1950's that was taught in missionary schools in India. There are a lot of web sites and blog posts now on the differences between the two dialects.
Also, if you are on a visa like the H1-B, that can be an issue as well. Probably easier to switch jobs with US permanent residency (green card) or US citizenship.
If you are unhappy with your current job and have trouble leaving it, non-work social activities, physical exercise, and sometimes meditation can be helpful. Unfortunately, under stress it is very easy to cut back on social activities and exercise, but actually you should do the opposite -- increase these -- under sustained stress.
Perhaps talk to some older product managers who are not trying to hire you, colleagues rather than employers, about their experiences and what might be an issue in the job hunt.
Good luck!
If all seven onsite interviews have been "serious interviews" then zero job offers is a bit low, but still could be just bad luck: 1 chance in 2 to the 7 (128).
That said, mid thirties -- thirty-five to be exact -- is the age where employees in the high technology industry start to report increased difficulties finding jobs. Look around -- not a lot of people who look over thirty-five.
Very few companies seem to be looking for 10+ years of experience. Most job postings on LinkedIn and other job boards will ask for 3-5 or 3-7 years of experience. Some for ten years, but not that many. You state you have twelve (12) years of experience.
It is difficult to know the reasons for this pattern in high tech. Probably all of these contribute:
o conscious and sub-conscious age discrimination
o companies are looking for young people who can work long hours, unpaid overtime. Overall stamina does decline with age. It is also harder to get more experienced people to work unpaid overtime as they recognize what is happening -- aren't fooled by unrealistic schedules, manufactured crunches over trade show appearances, and other deceptions and demand to be paid.
o Companies and managers feel threatened by employees who know a lot, preferring young people with little or limited experience.
US born "native" white men with perfect English report same difficulties frequently. It may have little to do with being Indian or having an accent, although it is surely good advice to work on accent and mastery of American English which differs in a number of ways from Indian English. Indian English is derived from British English in the 1940's and 1950's that was taught in missionary schools in India. There are a lot of web sites and blog posts now on the differences between the two dialects.
Also, if you are on a visa like the H1-B, that can be an issue as well. Probably easier to switch jobs with US permanent residency (green card) or US citizenship.
If you are unhappy with your current job and have trouble leaving it, non-work social activities, physical exercise, and sometimes meditation can be helpful. Unfortunately, under stress it is very easy to cut back on social activities and exercise, but actually you should do the opposite -- increase these -- under sustained stress.
Perhaps talk to some older product managers who are not trying to hire you, colleagues rather than employers, about their experiences and what might be an issue in the job hunt.
Good luck!
Patience?
Regardless of whether you continue the job search or not, pick up that hobby. I love my job, but non-work hobbies keep me sane. Relying on career to be the sole provider of personal fulfillment is a recipe for an abusive relationship with your job.
Spot on!
I'm lucky enough that my day job isn't that stressful that I do not get "burned out" when I get home to work on my personal projects.
I love my job and I love working with the people in the company. The culture is very good and not toxic. However, trying something new or building something fun, it is not possible always within the job. It's fixing bugs; figuring out processes, etc. But as long as I am not burned out at work, I still find a few hours every night to do something I really want.
Without my personal projects I would be bored to death.
I'm lucky enough that my day job isn't that stressful that I do not get "burned out" when I get home to work on my personal projects.
I love my job and I love working with the people in the company. The culture is very good and not toxic. However, trying something new or building something fun, it is not possible always within the job. It's fixing bugs; figuring out processes, etc. But as long as I am not burned out at work, I still find a few hours every night to do something I really want.
Without my personal projects I would be bored to death.
+1 I am a software developer and I wrote and published a science fiction novel. I agree. Everyone needs diverse, away-from-work hobbies.
Work on your interview skills is my best guess.
I have been looking to change jobs over the last 8 months. I am in a product management leadership position at my current job, and looking to shift to a similar role in either a slightly smaller company or in a different industry. However, I have found it extremely hard to accomplish this. I have no idea why I am failing in final rounds, but in most instances the feedback has been "You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role is not a good fit"
What am I doing wrong ? Few facts about me" - I have over 12 years of work experience across 4 companies (well known brands) - I am in my mid 30s - I am Indian, and FOB, with an accent (not a heavy accent though)
I have run completely out of ideas now. I have probably spoken with 100 people during the course of 15 interviews and I haven't gotten any feedback on what I am doing wrong. I absolutely HATE my current job. I get depressed thinking about working in my current job for the foreseeable future. But looks like I don't have any recourse. I am almost thinking of halting my job search and finding some kind of hobby to keep me occupied and keep my mind off work. Any advice would be appreciated.