The dangerous downsides of perfectionism(bbc.com)
bbc.com
The dangerous downsides of perfectionism
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180219-toxic-perfectionism-is-on-the-rise
43 コメント
> In his 60-plus studies focusing on athletes, for example, Hill has found that the single biggest predictor of success in sports is simply practice.
I mean apart of genetic makeup - if you have wrong genetics no amount of practice will help you.
I mean apart of genetic makeup - if you have wrong genetics no amount of practice will help you.
Malcom Gladwell's "Outliers" book shows some interesting relationships between month of birth and professional sports players.
Basically those born earlier in the year will generally have a physical advantage, which at a young age can make quite a difference (think of a chiold at 6 yeard old exactly compared to a child whi is 6 years and 11 months old).
These kids are then singled out and given extra training for the sport which they are good at, which compounds the effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_age_effect
Basically those born earlier in the year will generally have a physical advantage, which at a young age can make quite a difference (think of a chiold at 6 yeard old exactly compared to a child whi is 6 years and 11 months old).
These kids are then singled out and given extra training for the sport which they are good at, which compounds the effects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_age_effect
That's a terribly self limiting mindset.
It is reality. Someone with large hands has huge advantage over someone with small ones in competitive swimming. Someone with a lot of red muscle fibre will grow stronger then someone with white one in weight lifting. Weight lifters are not small by random either. Pretending it is not so is just lying to yourself or worst if you make moral virtue out sport.
I'm not doubting effects phenotype has on abilities in specific areas. Just that the mental model of "I can't" is very limiting.
Just because your phenotype isn't ideal for a thing doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
Also there are a large array of phenotypical that are harder to identify through testing than just giving it a go and seeing how you go / enjoy it.
Just because your phenotype isn't ideal for a thing doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
Also there are a large array of phenotypical that are harder to identify through testing than just giving it a go and seeing how you go / enjoy it.
We were talking about predictors of success. You can do sport recreationally or for fun, but that is not what is meant by "predictor of success". If your goal is to have success in competition, you will compete against people who have right phenotype. In which case it makes more sense to look at sport that might suit you.
Also, if two students start weight lift and he grows faster then you, the reason might not be that one is simply lazy and the other simply trains harder.
Also, if two students start weight lift and he grows faster then you, the reason might not be that one is simply lazy and the other simply trains harder.
Clearly you can find numerous cases in sports of individuals overcoming physical limitations by finding alternate pathways to success (take for example short/shorter NBA players). Furthermore, those with "good genes" do not always find success. In competition, preparation and luck far outweighs the gene factor.
Only for sports which have a heavy "skill" bias, where at the competitive limits skill is a major determining factor.
It's not true in all sports. E.g. Long distance running, cycling etc where skill plays a much lesser role.
It's not true in all sports. E.g. Long distance running, cycling etc where skill plays a much lesser role.
> E.g. Long distance running, cycling etc where skill plays a much lesser role.
If this were the case then only those with the highest, humanly achievable VO2 max levels would dominate the sport. But this isn't the case. Why? It's just a single contributing factor (in a vast sea of contributing factors) which can lead to success. I would argue a motivated athlete with a "can-do" spirit, but lower V02 will be more successful than any unmotivated athlete with a high V02 level.
If this were the case then only those with the highest, humanly achievable VO2 max levels would dominate the sport. But this isn't the case. Why? It's just a single contributing factor (in a vast sea of contributing factors) which can lead to success. I would argue a motivated athlete with a "can-do" spirit, but lower V02 will be more successful than any unmotivated athlete with a high V02 level.
> Clearly you can find numerous cases in sports of individuals overcoming physical limitations by finding alternate pathways to success (take for example short/shorter NBA players).
Maybe height disadvantage was canceled out by other genetical advantage in that case. The more popular sport is and the more competition there is, the less likely are those people will be to appear. You picked rare outliers to argue against trend.
> Furthermore, those with "good genes" do not always find success.
Of course. Nobody is saying that right genetics is the only factor. Starting to train young is oftentimes factor too. So is food quality. And quality of training. And amount of it.
> In competition, preparation and luck far outweighs the gene factor.
In modern competition, every single competing person have right genetics and tons of preparation under belt. And average sportsman is normally waaaay above average person.
Yeah, short people are on average lazier to learn basketball. That is why basketball players are disproportionally tall. And guys with white fibres are lazy to weight lift, but somehow not lazy to do different sports.
Maybe height disadvantage was canceled out by other genetical advantage in that case. The more popular sport is and the more competition there is, the less likely are those people will be to appear. You picked rare outliers to argue against trend.
> Furthermore, those with "good genes" do not always find success.
Of course. Nobody is saying that right genetics is the only factor. Starting to train young is oftentimes factor too. So is food quality. And quality of training. And amount of it.
> In competition, preparation and luck far outweighs the gene factor.
In modern competition, every single competing person have right genetics and tons of preparation under belt. And average sportsman is normally waaaay above average person.
Yeah, short people are on average lazier to learn basketball. That is why basketball players are disproportionally tall. And guys with white fibres are lazy to weight lift, but somehow not lazy to do different sports.
The alternate pathways being also genetic, contradicting your point. Spudd Webb had the 5th highest vertical leap in NBA history [0] That's not something that can be achieved by preparation alone.
[0] http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/285345-top-10-vertical-jum...
[0] http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/285345-top-10-vertical-jum...
I haven't looked at it specifically from the perfectionism vs conscientiousness perspective, but this jives with what I've been doing to reduce my overall anxiety levels.
I used to perceive various small failures, often just things like not doing chores on time, as a big deal and a sign that I'm failing as a person. This, of course, is not productive at all, saps my energy, and often results in me failing even more. But when you truly believe that it does make you a worse person, you feel as if you deserve these side effects...
It's a long story of how I got there but at one point I decided that I'm not going to give any non-major failures much credit and advance from them as soon as possible. It's really nice to be able to look at a small error, say "whoops", and move on to fixing it. I sometimes still relapse to the old way of thinking but it's a huge weight off one's shoulders. But it is also so weird to just say "Yes I was really wrong about that, and I really shouldn't have done this. But that's OK, moving on."
What I've found, though, is that this is not really the kind of philosophy the average person I talk to actually has. The implication that one is a failure if they do not complete certain chores efficiently, or don't do certain things, or don't know a given technology, or don't lose weight, is common. So is giving people a very limited amount of chances before they're marked in some negative way. Perhaps I am simply imagining it because it's something I'm used to, but we may just be living in a fairly perfectionist environment. The article appears to confirm this.
I think ultimately it comes down to the idea that people make mistakes naturally (i.e., automatically) and might end up in unfavorable situations through no fault of their own. From here, you can accept errors as a fact of reality that happen _to_ you, as opposed to _from_ you, which makes them much easier to rectify. If you don't believe this, all those minor mistakes are then your sole responsibility, so it makes more sense to feel guilty for them.
I used to perceive various small failures, often just things like not doing chores on time, as a big deal and a sign that I'm failing as a person. This, of course, is not productive at all, saps my energy, and often results in me failing even more. But when you truly believe that it does make you a worse person, you feel as if you deserve these side effects...
It's a long story of how I got there but at one point I decided that I'm not going to give any non-major failures much credit and advance from them as soon as possible. It's really nice to be able to look at a small error, say "whoops", and move on to fixing it. I sometimes still relapse to the old way of thinking but it's a huge weight off one's shoulders. But it is also so weird to just say "Yes I was really wrong about that, and I really shouldn't have done this. But that's OK, moving on."
What I've found, though, is that this is not really the kind of philosophy the average person I talk to actually has. The implication that one is a failure if they do not complete certain chores efficiently, or don't do certain things, or don't know a given technology, or don't lose weight, is common. So is giving people a very limited amount of chances before they're marked in some negative way. Perhaps I am simply imagining it because it's something I'm used to, but we may just be living in a fairly perfectionist environment. The article appears to confirm this.
I think ultimately it comes down to the idea that people make mistakes naturally (i.e., automatically) and might end up in unfavorable situations through no fault of their own. From here, you can accept errors as a fact of reality that happen _to_ you, as opposed to _from_ you, which makes them much easier to rectify. If you don't believe this, all those minor mistakes are then your sole responsibility, so it makes more sense to feel guilty for them.
“You never fail until you stop trying.”
― Albert Einstein
I'm doubting this attribution is correct but the quote itself summarizes this approach nicely.
Mistakes do come naturally. Life is a probabilistic game of guessing what outcomes we will reach after making actions with restricted knowledge of the circumstances. Failing is imminent sooner or later. The sooner the better or loss aversion kicks in and we end up doing nothing, which most often is the worst action leading to a pit of cascading failures.
― Albert Einstein
I'm doubting this attribution is correct but the quote itself summarizes this approach nicely.
Mistakes do come naturally. Life is a probabilistic game of guessing what outcomes we will reach after making actions with restricted knowledge of the circumstances. Failing is imminent sooner or later. The sooner the better or loss aversion kicks in and we end up doing nothing, which most often is the worst action leading to a pit of cascading failures.
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I consider myself a recovering perfectionist.
It used to be that, all my code had to be perfectly understandable, all my variable names the perfect metaphor / concept, my architectures the most scalable etc.
I found that the anxiety of having to make hundreds of correct decisions everyday left me exhausted. Ultimately it was not sustainable. I would agonised over tiny details for extended period of time.
I was eventually exposed to and much later internalised the idea that there are three types of decisions:
1. those you get right 2. Those you get wrong 3. Those you don't make
Anything is better than 3 in a non-life or death situation. If you're trying to learn 1 is not so important and doing 2 is the only way to truly learn.
It used to be that, all my code had to be perfectly understandable, all my variable names the perfect metaphor / concept, my architectures the most scalable etc.
I found that the anxiety of having to make hundreds of correct decisions everyday left me exhausted. Ultimately it was not sustainable. I would agonised over tiny details for extended period of time.
I was eventually exposed to and much later internalised the idea that there are three types of decisions:
1. those you get right 2. Those you get wrong 3. Those you don't make
Anything is better than 3 in a non-life or death situation. If you're trying to learn 1 is not so important and doing 2 is the only way to truly learn.
It's a resource allocation problem. You've only got so many hours and energy in a day. I think the trick is to learn to recognize which code is more important and spend effort where it is needed.
I think it would help if as a community we would recognize that sometimes writing crappy code is OK, as long as it's a conscious decision and.
I think it would help if as a community we would recognize that sometimes writing crappy code is OK, as long as it's a conscious decision and.
Disappointing that it doesn't mention "maximizers vs satisficers" which is a good way to look at things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing
Does anyone else sort of enjoy some tenets of perfectionism? I write songs and often drive myself nearly insane trying to get every detail right.
But there is a nice feeling knowing that what you’ve finished is as good as it can be, because you’ve exhausted every damn option.
But there is a nice feeling knowing that what you’ve finished is as good as it can be, because you’ve exhausted every damn option.
If you can use perfectionism as a motivator, it can be very powerful and drive you - sometimes - beyond what you thought was even possible.
But it can backfire. Either because you may at some point not know where to stop, or because you are so intimidated by the idea of not getting it right you do not even dare to begin.
But it can backfire. Either because you may at some point not know where to stop, or because you are so intimidated by the idea of not getting it right you do not even dare to begin.
That's not perfectionism.
If the song never gets 'as good as it can be', that's perfectionism.
If the song never gets 'as good as it can be', that's perfectionism.
I don't think anyone has a problem with perfectionism when it goes perfectly... (and when ignoring the costs)
I can believe that the single most important predictor in sport (indeed many things) is practice. I suspect, however, that what also matters immensely is the kind of practice. For instance, often those in the gym that measure practice as "runs x distance in y time" or "do X exercises for Y weight in Z reps" are far, far more effective than those whose sole metric is "spend X amount of time doing Y'. It's the same with studying: I remember during my undergrad I saw people spending hours and hours "revising" by simply reading the math book back to front. I think a lot of people work hard but not necessarily as effectively as possible. People need to learn how to learn.
Imo, practice is most important predictor in sport only after you excluded all the people who are, depending on sport, too tall, too short, have too small hands, too short attention span, have wrong kind of muscle fibre (white vs red) etc.
> have wrong kind of muscle fibre (white vs red)
How can you find out which one you have?
How can you find out which one you have?
To get quality result, they take sample of your muscles. Dont do it at home.
Less precise but easily available test: http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/muscle-fiber-compo...
Less precise but easily available test: http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/muscle-fiber-compo...
In general, time should be spent on various levels of abstraction. It's important to spend time at practice and it's important to spend time learning how best to go about practice. It's also important to spend time deciding how much time to spend concerning yourself with each individual realm of practice (work, family, hobbies, fitness, etc).
This is why I think one of the most important goals you can have is to devise a productivity strategy which reaches across all of these realms and levels of abstraction. That meta-skillset encapsulates all the others and has the widest impact.
This is why I think one of the most important goals you can have is to devise a productivity strategy which reaches across all of these realms and levels of abstraction. That meta-skillset encapsulates all the others and has the widest impact.
This is just off the cuff, studying is a lot like like interviewing someone, in that you should be interviewing yourself for the knowledge you are learning. Summarize, explain to a lay person, contextualize, how it applies across time and in the domain, apply, solve problems. One should be able to give an extemporaneous speech to an educated, but non-expert of about 20-40 seconds that sums up your knowledge, and at any point in time.
Perhaps it's our media saturated culture with its constant images of perfect, beautiful, successful people? It may also be a lack of a grander purpose in life, so every little goal becomes all consuming.
I don't identify with the self-criticism or the rage much at all. For me the problem with perfectionism is just how good it feels to edit every little word of an email or comment compared to stuff that actually needs to get done.
That's conscientiousness[1], another related psychological attribute. If you get a positive emotional response from doing well, that's adaptive. It's the dark side where you beat yourself up over tiny flaws that tips you towards perfectionism.
I've got plenty of both. For example, I love hand-writing and good pens and paper, but I never get journals to write in. I know that as soon as I made a single error, the entire journal would feel tainted to me and I would no longer get any satisfaction from writing in it.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientiousness
I've got plenty of both. For example, I love hand-writing and good pens and paper, but I never get journals to write in. I know that as soon as I made a single error, the entire journal would feel tainted to me and I would no longer get any satisfaction from writing in it.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientiousness
Perfectionism is a bit more loaded term than this, I would just call this attention to detail / enjoyment of order. If you don't dislike yourself when you send an email with typos, it's probably not perfectionism.
I Agree. It really is debilitating for those that have it in its truest form. From the ridiculous amount of time it takes to do simple tasks to the amount of anxiety you get when you know what you have is good enough and there's a deadline approaching and/or you have a ton of other things to do, but you just can't call it quits because of all those little details that aren't up to standard.
And it makes it even worse when you're spending this extra time to go that extra mile and you're fully aware how nonsensical and irrelevant it all is but still can't let it go.
And it makes it even worse when you're spending this extra time to go that extra mile and you're fully aware how nonsensical and irrelevant it all is but still can't let it go.
I only heard the bad sides of perfectionism in the last 3 years honestly.
In college I felt like anything was possible.
I felt the failures around be needed to just delay gratification, and work hard, because life is difficult.
I looked at my classmates, and thought they were just not serious, and needed to work harder.
After all, going to school is easy. (I still belive the worst day at school is better than any day I spent in construction.).
I'm chugging along. I'm thinking about how short life is. I'm thinking about that vague pain in my head. The pain the Neurologist said wasen't psychological, because the pain was coming from cranial nerve locations in my skull. (I forgot to tell him I used to read through Grey's Anatomy for recreation.)
I thought I was doing well. Doing great in school. Keeping down a job. I really felt I could do anything.
I was lonely though. I broke up with my college girlfriend a few years earlier--why--for no good reason? Just young, and dumb.
My vague head pain was my daily friend.
I was toying with getting two professional degrees. Why not? School is easy. Just delay gratification. Don't mess up your life with chaos, and all the drama of a relationship.
Then a classmate died of a anyurism. I didn't know the kid, but he was the image of health.
It wasn't long after I went home for a holiday, and at around 11:30 pm, I had a panic attack. A scary one, but I had minor ones before, so no big deal. I'll just go to sleep, and feel great on the morning.
Wake up at 8:30 am, and the minute my bedroom door opens intense anxiety sets in, and stays with me all day.
After a few weeks, I see a bunch of doctors. They all say different things. I pick out a Therapist out of the yellow pages. See him for months. Anxiety just off the charts.
I finally see the "right" doctor, and he gives me a long half life benzo. It works, but only works for a few hours during the day. Alcohol worked better. It scared me because the last thing I wanted was to be one an alcoholic.
Well the intense anxiety went on for a decade. My life definely suffered.
I went from the better, capable guys in the room, to someone who could barely walk into the room.
I don't have any advice. I wouldn't wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. My doctor did say my case was unusual.
I'm still kinda a perfectionist though. My life is close to being homeless, but when I do something; I still do it well.
Enjoy your life.
I felt the failures around be needed to just delay gratification, and work hard, because life is difficult.
I looked at my classmates, and thought they were just not serious, and needed to work harder.
After all, going to school is easy. (I still belive the worst day at school is better than any day I spent in construction.).
I'm chugging along. I'm thinking about how short life is. I'm thinking about that vague pain in my head. The pain the Neurologist said wasen't psychological, because the pain was coming from cranial nerve locations in my skull. (I forgot to tell him I used to read through Grey's Anatomy for recreation.)
I thought I was doing well. Doing great in school. Keeping down a job. I really felt I could do anything.
I was lonely though. I broke up with my college girlfriend a few years earlier--why--for no good reason? Just young, and dumb.
My vague head pain was my daily friend.
I was toying with getting two professional degrees. Why not? School is easy. Just delay gratification. Don't mess up your life with chaos, and all the drama of a relationship.
Then a classmate died of a anyurism. I didn't know the kid, but he was the image of health.
It wasn't long after I went home for a holiday, and at around 11:30 pm, I had a panic attack. A scary one, but I had minor ones before, so no big deal. I'll just go to sleep, and feel great on the morning.
Wake up at 8:30 am, and the minute my bedroom door opens intense anxiety sets in, and stays with me all day.
After a few weeks, I see a bunch of doctors. They all say different things. I pick out a Therapist out of the yellow pages. See him for months. Anxiety just off the charts.
I finally see the "right" doctor, and he gives me a long half life benzo. It works, but only works for a few hours during the day. Alcohol worked better. It scared me because the last thing I wanted was to be one an alcoholic.
Well the intense anxiety went on for a decade. My life definely suffered.
I went from the better, capable guys in the room, to someone who could barely walk into the room.
I don't have any advice. I wouldn't wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. My doctor did say my case was unusual.
I'm still kinda a perfectionist though. My life is close to being homeless, but when I do something; I still do it well.
Enjoy your life.
Thanks for posting this! I'm always interested in other people's experience with anxiety. I'm slightly jealous yours has an origin story though. I've been anxious for as long as I remember and can't recall any traumatic experiences nor come up with any logical explanations.
It's important to remember that anxiety and panic are neurochemical responses and can have strong physical and genetic components, they don't always need to have a psychological "cause."
One thing I'd suggest, if you haven't already, is look into your family history for any for signs of it. In my case, there's a very clear hereditary line of panic disorder and other similar ailments that came down through the generations, eventually landing in me as well.
We like to think of our "mind" as something that exists completely separate from the physical reality of the brain, but in the end it's an organ like any other, and any malfunctions within it can affect us in subtle ways. For example, during the run up to a panic attack, I tend to get very irritable and easily frustrated. I've come to recognize it as a sign of what's to come and take steps in advance to try to curb it.
One thing I'd suggest, if you haven't already, is look into your family history for any for signs of it. In my case, there's a very clear hereditary line of panic disorder and other similar ailments that came down through the generations, eventually landing in me as well.
We like to think of our "mind" as something that exists completely separate from the physical reality of the brain, but in the end it's an organ like any other, and any malfunctions within it can affect us in subtle ways. For example, during the run up to a panic attack, I tend to get very irritable and easily frustrated. I've come to recognize it as a sign of what's to come and take steps in advance to try to curb it.
> It's important to remember that anxiety and panic are neurochemical responses and can have strong physical and genetic components, they don't always need to have a psychological "cause."
Agreed. Members of my mother's side are especially known to be "worriers". Sporadic levels of anxiety on my father's as well.
> I've come to recognize it as a sign of what's to come and take steps in advance to try to curb it.
Via therapy, I've discovered my own version of this, mostly around breathing. I tend to hold my breath as I start to go into my head. If I catch myself doing this, I can sometimes reduce most of the physical effects by focusing on breathing again. It's easier said than done.
Agreed. Members of my mother's side are especially known to be "worriers". Sporadic levels of anxiety on my father's as well.
> I've come to recognize it as a sign of what's to come and take steps in advance to try to curb it.
Via therapy, I've discovered my own version of this, mostly around breathing. I tend to hold my breath as I start to go into my head. If I catch myself doing this, I can sometimes reduce most of the physical effects by focusing on breathing again. It's easier said than done.
Wow, I’ve a lot of similarities to your story. Just yesterday I was out running errands and wondering where the f*ck did this dull, omnipresent anxiety come from? I didn’t used to have it either.
Don’t give up hope though— there’s so many causes for anxiety, low magnesium, inflammation, poor gut flora etc. Try as many things as possible, whether that be a silly self help book or meditation class.
Don’t give up hope though— there’s so many causes for anxiety, low magnesium, inflammation, poor gut flora etc. Try as many things as possible, whether that be a silly self help book or meditation class.
Thank you for the inspiring post. As someone who envied perfectionists, this opened my eyes. Take care of yourself!
Ugh. Been there, done that. I remember skipping the first year of fast pitch baseball because I was sure I’d never be able to hit the ball. It simply wasn’t true and can only have set me back when rejoining the following year.
I assumed perfectionism was generational or at least cultural. It’s distressing to see it’s widespread and increasing. The studies put a fine focus on the need to get smarter and model healthier responses to mistakes for the next generation.