Laying a trap for self-driving cars(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Laying a trap for self-driving cars
https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/17/laying-a-trap-for-self-driving-cars/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29
46 comments
I agree, it was entertaining. You can imagine the next James Bond car has a gadget with two paint dispensers that shoots out on a rail to one side of the car, starts firing paint and then moves out to the right drawing a double yellow line that forces the bad guys in their self driving car off on to the shoulder :-). And no, I don't think any self driving car worth it's salt would fall for this. Fun to simulate though.
I enjoyed that 'smart car' joke that went "I was standing in the garage because I had forgotten where I had parked my self driving car, then it hit me."
I enjoyed that 'smart car' joke that went "I was standing in the garage because I had forgotten where I had parked my self driving car, then it hit me."
I'm not totally sure that it's correct to group the artist with people who think lazily about AI. If the artist was trying to literally suggest that this trap would work, then, yeah, that would be silly and misinformed. But I think he was just being cheeky and using this as an example of a rule outside of its context being rendered meaningless (which is explicitly declared to be the point of the work). That in itself is a worthwhile point in a deeper way (because your model always fails when you hit outliers you haven't trained for), and I kind of liked that the visual form was of a car-summoning ritual.
Or maybe the artist is just a lazy anti-AI person and I am giving him too much credit. But I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion.
Or maybe the artist is just a lazy anti-AI person and I am giving him too much credit. But I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion.
"They are more like guidelines, anyway"
I still want to see a self-driving car in Minnesota in winter. Road markings, what road markings? For that matter where is the road?
The road markings will be clearly visible, of course, since there will be self-driving snowplows around 24/7.
How are the road markings visible to the first snowplow?
There is no first "first snow plough", only a continuous stream of snow ploughs - at least until the AI goes on strike ;)
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/snow-canyon-japan
"Sometime in early March, a bulldozer specially equipped with both a GPS and a mobile satellite phone is sent up the mountain and over the Snow Canyon. The GPS and sat phone work in tandem to provide the driver a detailed video screen image of the dozer’s location in relation to the center of the snow-buried highway. This driver’s job is not to clear snow, but simply to lay out an accurate track of the road itself."
"Sometime in early March, a bulldozer specially equipped with both a GPS and a mobile satellite phone is sent up the mountain and over the Snow Canyon. The GPS and sat phone work in tandem to provide the driver a detailed video screen image of the dozer’s location in relation to the center of the snow-buried highway. This driver’s job is not to clear snow, but simply to lay out an accurate track of the road itself."
Lots of other people talk about fancy GPS systems in this thread, but it's been done for far longer with much simpler, arguably more reliable technology: long poles/sticks either painted with bright high vis paint, or more recently, retroreflectors.
It reminds me a bit of the story about NASA and the gazillion dollar space pen, vs the soviet space agency and their pencils.
It reminds me a bit of the story about NASA and the gazillion dollar space pen, vs the soviet space agency and their pencils.
Sure, why not a "gazillion" at this point:
> When the solution of providing astronauts with a ballpoint pen that would work under weightless conditions and extreme temperatures came about, though, it wasn’t because NASA had thrown hundreds of thousands of dollars (inflated to $12 billion in the latest iterations of this tale) in research and development money at the problem. The “space pen” that has since become famous through its use by astronauts was developed independently by Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co., who spent his own money on the project and, once he perfected his AG-7 “Anti-Gravity” Space Pen, offered it to NASA.
Via http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
> When the solution of providing astronauts with a ballpoint pen that would work under weightless conditions and extreme temperatures came about, though, it wasn’t because NASA had thrown hundreds of thousands of dollars (inflated to $12 billion in the latest iterations of this tale) in research and development money at the problem. The “space pen” that has since become famous through its use by astronauts was developed independently by Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co., who spent his own money on the project and, once he perfected his AG-7 “Anti-Gravity” Space Pen, offered it to NASA.
Via http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
The Soviets used the Fisher Space Pen, too. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-n...
Pencils have issues with electrical systems, waste, and flammability.
Pencils have issues with electrical systems, waste, and flammability.
As someone who grew up in the mountains, I can tell you that the plows (and tire chains) do a fantastic job of stripping all the road markings away.
I see this in the valley too. Lane markings are more "lane suggestions" for about 8 months of the year. Abrasive sand for traction on the ice, metal plows scraping the pavement, tire chains, and good ol' erosion do a great job of removing the lines they finished putting down in August by December.
Canada not Minnesota but close: https://youtu.be/jx4iIaEWmRM?t=42s
There are plows today that do their routes via GPS, so it's not too much of a strech for the plows and cars to do the same.
> Of course, it’s just a regular car he drives into it for demonstration purposes.
Because a self-driving car wouldn't have any reason to drive into the circle, so it wouldn't get "caught".
The actual reason a regular car is used is because this is an "art installation" and not a serious critique of self-driving algorithms.
A more effective trap would be a "no entry" sign on a one-way street (or one side of a dual carriageway), positioned so the car can't see it before entering the street.
Because a self-driving car wouldn't have any reason to drive into the circle, so it wouldn't get "caught".
The actual reason a regular car is used is because this is an "art installation" and not a serious critique of self-driving algorithms.
A more effective trap would be a "no entry" sign on a one-way street (or one side of a dual carriageway), positioned so the car can't see it before entering the street.
>A more effective trap would be a "no entry" sign on a one-way street (or one side of a dual carriageway), positioned so the car can't see it before entering the street.
reminds me of rollercoaster tycoon where you could trap guests indefinitely by using that technique.
reminds me of rollercoaster tycoon where you could trap guests indefinitely by using that technique.
you could make a "do not enter" sign with undertext saying "except non-self-driving cars".
Or just 2 to 3 people at a red light with the bags of salt.
While I agree this simplistic example probably wouldn't work, it's conceptual. Yes, if a road designer wanted to build a road that would trap cars, they could do so. Automated or not automated.
See the XKCD "Highway Engineer Pranks" for examples!
See the XKCD "Highway Engineer Pranks" for examples!
could just surround a car with 4 people. What is it going to do, run someone over?
This applies equally well to people driven cars.
People are willing to hit people with their vehicle to escape an attack.
It's doubtful we'll let self-driving cars make that choice (and in fact, would likely be illegal under current laws which prohibit weapons from being automated).
It's doubtful we'll let self-driving cars make that choice (and in fact, would likely be illegal under current laws which prohibit weapons from being automated).
4 mannequins would be funnier.
I wonder if we'll eventually see a world where the former Uber drivers who are slowly being lulled into dependence fight back when their jobs are automated away. Autonomous vehicles could be an easy target in a lot of ways, especially when unoccupied. Slap some electrical tape on their sensors, chock their tires, or confuse them with clever tactics like this.
One time that sort of thing happened at scale was in the 19th century, when skilled textile workers destroyed the mechanized looms that were putting them out of work. Those people were the original Luddites.
The British government responded by making destroying mechanized looms a capital offense, and deploying the army against them.
The British government responded by making destroying mechanized looms a capital offense, and deploying the army against them.
> Autonomous vehicles could be an easy target
An orwellian, neworked device with hundreds of sensors, cameras, laser scanners? Not so easy.
An orwellian, neworked device with hundreds of sensors, cameras, laser scanners? Not so easy.
If you actually want to damage sensors of unattended autonomous vehicles you could do a lot worse than just like...shooting at it with a firearm. Delicate precision sensors don't take to bullets too well, also using firearms lets you be well outside the range of the target vehicle's sensors.
It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.
when red light cameras came to my town, a person dressed as Santa Claus carried large wrapped boxes with holes in the bottom. The person put the packages over the cameras. AFAIK, no one was ever charged.
Maybe in the future it'll be impossible to get away with things like that in the future.
Maybe in the future it'll be impossible to get away with things like that in the future.
That would be as criminal as taxi drivers slashing Uber tires, or artisanal craftsmen burning down factories.
True. I'm not condoning, just questioning.
I'm running an autonomous driving event in a few weeks. I guess we could try this out?
I suspect you'll see some real world versions of this sort of thing from truckers when self driving semis get some traction.
Truckers are very well organized, both officially via unions and informally via radio shows, newsletters, online forums, and the like.
Not that it will accomplish much, but it will be a lively transiton.
Truckers are very well organized, both officially via unions and informally via radio shows, newsletters, online forums, and the like.
Not that it will accomplish much, but it will be a lively transiton.
Instead of putting truckers back on trucks, they will just put security on them, until it stops.
Actually, this raises some rather large questions about intent of someone fooling a self-driving car. Laying a trap for the occupants, so that they can be easily robbed.
Like the mischief being mentioned against trucks and Uber's by drivers (we can almost guarantee this will happen), what about just strait up traps for robbery?
There were some cases of this with the Pokémon game right?
Like the mischief being mentioned against trucks and Uber's by drivers (we can almost guarantee this will happen), what about just strait up traps for robbery?
There were some cases of this with the Pokémon game right?
In recent memory, someone posted a great collection of illusions for self-driving vehicles. Can't find it, though :(
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You could probably trap a self driving car just by walking out in front of it and refusing to move aside.
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People do this to regular cars already with acts such as stealing stop signs. In some ways self driving cars will be easier to fool, but in other ways more difficult (eg, intersections with stop signs may also be contained in a database).
The best ones I've seen don't steal the sign, they take a big wrench and twist the post 90deg
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Let's make art of our ignorance!
What if someone drew (false) lane markers leading off the edge of a cliff?
Certainly entertaining though.