'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
'Google go home': the Berlin neighbourhood fighting off a tech giant
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/09/fuck-off-google-the-berlin-neighbourhood-fighting-off-a-tech-giant-kreuzberg
183 comments
I agree completely that "cheap Berlin" is rapidly disappearing. Just this morning I was checking real-estate prices[0] for the first time in a few years and was a bit shocked. Folks in Silicon Valley or Munich or Hamburg would probably still find it cheap-ish but AFAIK local salaries have not remotely kept up with this trend. A million Euros for a nice family-sized flat in a good neighborhood is not exotic anymore, but for most Berliners that's an absurd sum.
Another interesting thing is that there are more and more ways to spend more and more of your money in Berlin. Consumerism is definitely on the rise, which IMO is bad news for people not making much money.
I wouldn't say Berlin lacks an international airport, I would say instead that the corruption/incompetence nexus managed to spare us the monstrosity of BER[1] and we can continue to use the lovely old urban airport at Tegel[2], though granted there are a lot of stopovers depending on where you're going.
Anyway I really doubt Berlin will be anything like Silicon Valley, well, ever. You could start with how radically differently the local tech scene views labor, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I would love to be wrong though.
[edit: formatting]
[0]: https://www.immobilienscout24.de
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tegel_Airport
Another interesting thing is that there are more and more ways to spend more and more of your money in Berlin. Consumerism is definitely on the rise, which IMO is bad news for people not making much money.
I wouldn't say Berlin lacks an international airport, I would say instead that the corruption/incompetence nexus managed to spare us the monstrosity of BER[1] and we can continue to use the lovely old urban airport at Tegel[2], though granted there are a lot of stopovers depending on where you're going.
Anyway I really doubt Berlin will be anything like Silicon Valley, well, ever. You could start with how radically differently the local tech scene views labor, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. I would love to be wrong though.
[edit: formatting]
[0]: https://www.immobilienscout24.de
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tegel_Airport
Rents (and cost-of-living) are still super cheap compared to other metropolises like NYC, London or Singapore.
Ratio of salary and cost-of-living is still looking good in Berlin.
How do you think the views on labor differ between SV vs Berlin ?
In SV there is (it seems to me) an attitude that tech entrepreneurship is a win-win for capital and labor, meaning (among other things) talent is paid well. In Berlin I'm sure there are some companies that see it that way, but many are in Berlin because of the cheap labor and they have every intention of leveraging that.
Once you get above a certain level, especially working for bigger companies, it levels out, and you won't be compensated in cash as much as in SV but you'll get all the other things that come with a reasonably well-run social democracy.
But in SV, say, nobody who's any good would work for the Brothers Samwer. In Berlin lots and lots of people need the job.
I could be wrong about this of course, I'm an old fart with a stable gig and all my data are anecdata.
Once you get above a certain level, especially working for bigger companies, it levels out, and you won't be compensated in cash as much as in SV but you'll get all the other things that come with a reasonably well-run social democracy.
But in SV, say, nobody who's any good would work for the Brothers Samwer. In Berlin lots and lots of people need the job.
I could be wrong about this of course, I'm an old fart with a stable gig and all my data are anecdata.
Its all those riches from authoritarian countrys fleeing to "safer/stable" countries.
A millionaire in a party state is one head of states headache away from loosing it. And they know it.
A millionaire in a party state is one head of states headache away from loosing it. And they know it.
As someone traveling between Europe and Asia a lot and a former resident in Berlin. IMO Berlin is far from having an international Airport, it has two European airports but flying there means transiting somewhere. I appreciate Tegel tho, only airport in a capitol I've been able to make a flight when still in the cab 30min before take off. Less than 4h door to door between my appartment in Berlin and my friends in Stockholm.
I should have included a smiley or something with my swipe at BER. :-)
For the lack of options out of Tegel you can pretty much thank Lufthansa.
For the lack of options out of Tegel you can pretty much thank Lufthansa.
Oh yeah, BER is a very expensive joke at the moment.
I think this is overblown. The Berlin "housing crisis" is only happening in a few trendy neighborhoods-- Neuköln, Kreuzberg, F-schein, etc.
There is a rather ill-informed effort to attempt to compare it to, for example, what is happening in the Bay Area, which is absurd. In the Bay Area, any place to live within walking distance of public transit is so expensive that only tech workers can afford it, extending far beyond the San Francisco/Oakland city limits. In Berlin, if you don't mind living in one of the less "cool" neighborhoods, or gasp outside the Ringbahn, you will be fine.
I think the issue is that two decades ago, rents in Berlin were absurdly cheap for a number of reasons related to the DDR, and now things are starting to normalize a bit so people are complaining.
There is a rather ill-informed effort to attempt to compare it to, for example, what is happening in the Bay Area, which is absurd. In the Bay Area, any place to live within walking distance of public transit is so expensive that only tech workers can afford it, extending far beyond the San Francisco/Oakland city limits. In Berlin, if you don't mind living in one of the less "cool" neighborhoods, or gasp outside the Ringbahn, you will be fine.
I think the issue is that two decades ago, rents in Berlin were absurdly cheap for a number of reasons related to the DDR, and now things are starting to normalize a bit so people are complaining.
The Berlin housing crisis is very much happening almost everywhere. City-wide average rents increased 45% between 2009-2015. Rents doubled in some districts in that timeframe and even in the least affected areas (Marzahn and Spandau) rents increased by more than 30%.
I'd argue that's a reflection on what I said before (prices normalizing from dirt-cheap). I do not consider these numbers a crisis at all.
Here is an example of why the Bay Area is in a crisis: https://abcnews.go.com/US/san-francisco-resident-fights-sudd...
A San Francisco man had his rent increased from $1800 a month to $8000 a month. True, it is one of the more extreme examples, but this is what I would call a crisis. Can you show me examples like this from Berlin?
Here is an example of why the Bay Area is in a crisis: https://abcnews.go.com/US/san-francisco-resident-fights-sudd...
A San Francisco man had his rent increased from $1800 a month to $8000 a month. True, it is one of the more extreme examples, but this is what I would call a crisis. Can you show me examples like this from Berlin?
The situation are a bit different though. The Bay Area is competitive despite its housing market, while Berlin to a large extent is competitive because of its housing market. If rents become similar to other major European cities Berlin will lose a lot of its appeal and potential compared to those other cities.
Silicon Valley became what it is today because there was cheap industrial land for chip fabs and random startups.
Debatable. As far as I know it wasn't really until around 2000 that Silicon Valley became dominate enough to really set it apart from other regional technology centers like Dallas, Boston or Pittsburgh.
In any case that doesn't really help Berlin if it takes, say, five years for its housing market to catch up to its European neighbors.
In any case that doesn't really help Berlin if it takes, say, five years for its housing market to catch up to its European neighbors.
What? You're overlooking an enormous number of factors.
If it's cheap industrial land alone that made Silicon Valley how did Texas, Nevada, The Midwest and other places miss out on a tech business boom?
If it's cheap industrial land alone that made Silicon Valley how did Texas, Nevada, The Midwest and other places miss out on a tech business boom?
Texas has TI which is a big tech firm.
45% in 6 years is 6.21% compound per year, which is not unusually high for that time scale for an attractive large city.
but rent was also dirt cheap in 2000-2010, so its more moving towards the average in other big german cities now.
Even 5 years ago when I spent 3 months in Berlin the idea of calling Neuköln trendy would have seemed pretty nuts. So I think that suggests something radical is happening.
I think your memory may be faulty or you weren't that well integrated into the local "scene". 5 years ago was 2013, I was already living in Berlin back then and Neuköln was already billed as "the next Kreuzberg". 10 years ago...you may have had a point.
But also remember that then and now we're only talking about very specific areas of Neuköln which are super hip, it's actually a huge district and most of it is still "not cool". The bits close to Tempelhofer Feld and Kreuzberg have been gentrifying for many years.
But also remember that then and now we're only talking about very specific areas of Neuköln which are super hip, it's actually a huge district and most of it is still "not cool". The bits close to Tempelhofer Feld and Kreuzberg have been gentrifying for many years.
You're spot on. I just checked and I was there in 2009. Feeling old now.
Even in Lichtenberg, certainly not trendy at all, rents have increased significantly (although not doubled yet afaik).
> Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.
Things that need to happen before this :
1. Salaries need to grow faster. Rent is really high for the new comers specialists.
2. Companies need to increase the salary gap between good and bad workers. Right now you are not able to negotiate more than 10% on top of the "average" salary.
3. Germany needs to fix the privileges of employees having options / shares of the company. With the current legislation / founders attitude is quite boring and useless.
Things that need to happen before this :
1. Salaries need to grow faster. Rent is really high for the new comers specialists.
2. Companies need to increase the salary gap between good and bad workers. Right now you are not able to negotiate more than 10% on top of the "average" salary.
3. Germany needs to fix the privileges of employees having options / shares of the company. With the current legislation / founders attitude is quite boring and useless.
> Salaries need to grow faster
Berlin software engineer salaries are seriously worse then any where in america. I’ve seen desktop IT support in the US MidWest pay more than developers in Berlin.
Hard to convince me to move internationally and write code. I can just move home, write zero code, and spend all day telling people to try, “turning it off and on again”. Cashing identical value checks.
Berlin software engineer salaries are seriously worse then any where in america. I’ve seen desktop IT support in the US MidWest pay more than developers in Berlin.
Hard to convince me to move internationally and write code. I can just move home, write zero code, and spend all day telling people to try, “turning it off and on again”. Cashing identical value checks.
Sure, but when you lose your job in the US Midwest you are without healthcare and you will probably lose your house, etc. It's impossible to compare jobs based only on salary, you have to calculate with the total cost of living and balance against services provided and peace of mind.
One of the reasons there are so many startups in Berlin is because if you fail, you are taken care of--you won't lose your house, or your health insurance, or have to leave. Another reason is that it's very straightforward to get work permits for engineers. Try hiring someone from Estonia in the US Midwest...
One of the reasons there are so many startups in Berlin is because if you fail, you are taken care of--you won't lose your house, or your health insurance, or have to leave. Another reason is that it's very straightforward to get work permits for engineers. Try hiring someone from Estonia in the US Midwest...
>Sure, but when you lose your job in the US Midwest you are without healthcare and you will probably lose your house, etc.
More likely you will get another job at a comparable salary and keep your house and your healthcare.
More likely you will get another job at a comparable salary and keep your house and your healthcare.
While I would be happy to have higher salaries here, they are not really comparable to the US. Here you have a social system (free education, public health insurance) and work way less (hardly 8 hours a day, 25-30 days vacation as normal, etc.). For European standards salaries here are actually rather decent. With the current rent situation, I hope though they rise to the standards of the more affluent German south.
Let’s say you can make €45k in Berlin. Let’s say you can make €90k in the US.
“Free” education costs roughly €45k per year. In the US, 2-3 weeks of vacation is normal (for tech jobs,) so let’s say in Germany, you get an additional week. Let’s now say that US workers work an extra 200 hours per year.
So “free” education plus an additional week off plus 200 annual hours of less work. Costing €45k per year.
In a work week, let’s say in Germany it’s 38 hours. So that week of extra vacation, plus the 200 extra annual hours, we have 238 extra hours of work. Not counting “free” university that means that extra time off costs you €189 per hour. Let’s say that a typical US state university costs €60k for 4 years. That represents about 315 hours of work (at the €189 per hour rate.) Which means that in just 2 years or less, the salary differential would pay for your university education. After that expense, then, for the rest of your career, you are essentially paying €189 per hour of extra time you get as a bonus for working in Germany.
Taxes are excluded from this calculation, but while they are higher in Germany, you get more “stuff,” so it balances out on the tax side reasonably well. However, something that is relevant is that the cost of consumer goods is higher in Germany, so your disposable income is going to be less than the US.
I am not saying Germany is “bad” — a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.
“Free” education costs roughly €45k per year. In the US, 2-3 weeks of vacation is normal (for tech jobs,) so let’s say in Germany, you get an additional week. Let’s now say that US workers work an extra 200 hours per year.
So “free” education plus an additional week off plus 200 annual hours of less work. Costing €45k per year.
In a work week, let’s say in Germany it’s 38 hours. So that week of extra vacation, plus the 200 extra annual hours, we have 238 extra hours of work. Not counting “free” university that means that extra time off costs you €189 per hour. Let’s say that a typical US state university costs €60k for 4 years. That represents about 315 hours of work (at the €189 per hour rate.) Which means that in just 2 years or less, the salary differential would pay for your university education. After that expense, then, for the rest of your career, you are essentially paying €189 per hour of extra time you get as a bonus for working in Germany.
Taxes are excluded from this calculation, but while they are higher in Germany, you get more “stuff,” so it balances out on the tax side reasonably well. However, something that is relevant is that the cost of consumer goods is higher in Germany, so your disposable income is going to be less than the US.
I am not saying Germany is “bad” — a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.
Depending on where you are in Germany you can get 30 days off per year, and on the low side is 25 days. Anything lower isn’t worth considering. So it’s not 1 more week, it’s at least 5-6 weeks of vacation per year, double what you might get in the states, on top of which is fully respected (no one would care if you take 1 consecutive month, even if you are a CEO). In the states you have to sometimes fight for your vacation even if it’s in your contract because of the work culture.
I would say you could make, before taxes, $100k per year in San Francisco with solid 2-3 years of experience, whereas in Berlin it’s around €60k average. On top of that if you’re talking about the whole of the US it’s wildly different between Cleveland and San Francisco, so your comparison isn’t really fair. 100k in SF is not great, 100k in Cleveland is. So your math doesn’t really work here, unless you compare directly two cities and also compare taxes.
I would say you could make, before taxes, $100k per year in San Francisco with solid 2-3 years of experience, whereas in Berlin it’s around €60k average. On top of that if you’re talking about the whole of the US it’s wildly different between Cleveland and San Francisco, so your comparison isn’t really fair. 100k in SF is not great, 100k in Cleveland is. So your math doesn’t really work here, unless you compare directly two cities and also compare taxes.
>In the US, 2-3 weeks of vacation is normal (for tech jobs,) so let’s say in Germany, you get an additional week
Are you expected to take those 2-3 weeks? Is your time away actually respected? I'm sure for some it is, but I don't believe that to be universal.
>a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.
Economic comparisons like this hardly capture all that accounts for the differences between these two scenarios. Work culture, quality of life, personal fulfillment, etc. This purely monetary estimation can be informative, but, it is only part of the story.
Are you expected to take those 2-3 weeks? Is your time away actually respected? I'm sure for some it is, but I don't believe that to be universal.
>a great place to live, but in pure economic terms, you are definitely worse off by comparison to a similar job in the US.
Economic comparisons like this hardly capture all that accounts for the differences between these two scenarios. Work culture, quality of life, personal fulfillment, etc. This purely monetary estimation can be informative, but, it is only part of the story.
25 days of vacation is 5 weeks of vacation, 30 days is 6 (we only count work days.) And by free education I mean from 1 year until university. If you have kids that is a huge difference. Plus sickness, etc, which is expensive over there. Plus, my friends working in the US tell me it is normal to work 50/60 hours there, specially in the companies where you make the big bucks, but maybe you can really work less if you are assertive with your boss and colleagues...?
I still agree that it is financially better to live in the US if you work as senior at Google/Amazon/Facebook scale, because the difference becomes huge. I still prefer Berlin due to live-style issues (50/60 hour work weeks, car life, commutes, no clubbing, overall capitalistic mentality.)
I still agree that it is financially better to live in the US if you work as senior at Google/Amazon/Facebook scale, because the difference becomes huge. I still prefer Berlin due to live-style issues (50/60 hour work weeks, car life, commutes, no clubbing, overall capitalistic mentality.)
I complain about low salaries for permanent positions all the time, but you can definitely do better than 45k. A programmer with a few years of experience should be able to get 60-75k without too much trouble.
The US has higher salaries across the board. But living costs are higher and you need to save more for pension, health care and education (if you have a family). Doesn't make salaries of SV comparable to Berlin but it's competitive vs most of Europe (and parts of Asia).
It also looks super bad if you compare it to southern Germany salaries.
Based on my interaction with "top" recruiters from Germany, I figured that I can compare: Senior SWE salary in the south with a CTO/Head-of salary in Berlin.
Based on my interaction with "top" recruiters from Germany, I figured that I can compare: Senior SWE salary in the south with a CTO/Head-of salary in Berlin.
Yeah I guess that's what stemming the tide :) Also a lot of German companies seem to require that you speak German. I know awesome programmers/designers living in Berlin but if they work for Berlin companies they seem to earn a pittance of what they'd would in for instance Stockholm. But if more tech companies, like Soundcloud, imports themselves into Berlin and Germany, employees and all, that will change.
Can it be because venture capital hasn't come to Berlin/Germany in a big way yet? Typically German companies seems more aimed at the German market rather than an international one, which maybe doesn't fuel a bubble as quickly.
Can it be because venture capital hasn't come to Berlin/Germany in a big way yet? Typically German companies seems more aimed at the German market rather than an international one, which maybe doesn't fuel a bubble as quickly.
Typical Berlin startups as of 2018 usually look for importing developers from other countries with relocation help. This, IMHO, is already the beginning of the salary increase, which is inevitable.
Unfortunately the progressive taxation [1] is quite complicated and makes it impossible to increase your life-style with just a salary bump.
I guess that's one of the reasons Berlin is still considered as temporary place to work, before you find "something better".
1 : http://www.drinchev.com/blog/germany-freelancing-and-taxes/
Unfortunately the progressive taxation [1] is quite complicated and makes it impossible to increase your life-style with just a salary bump.
I guess that's one of the reasons Berlin is still considered as temporary place to work, before you find "something better".
1 : http://www.drinchev.com/blog/germany-freelancing-and-taxes/
4. 100 Founders need to make billion dollar exits to fund universities, vc funds, industries
No way. Europe's Silicon Valley will establish in Eastern Europe, where living is cheaper and governments are more willing to ease up on regulations to accomodate the flexible start-up employer-employee relationships. Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn, those are the spots to keep an eye out for.
Speaking of Estonia, I was at their embassy in Stockholm last fall and they were pushing hard for Tallinn as the next European capital of tech. Nearly every conversation you had with them, regardless of topic, would somehow gravitate toward how great Estonia is to set up a tech shop. Whether because of cheap real estate or the quality of their work force, or the prevalence of craft beer – it was all just a great place to be.
Frankly I kind of bought it. I'm going to visit this summer.
Frankly I kind of bought it. I'm going to visit this summer.
I know a guy who lives there (he moved there, not a native), doing consulting and working remotely.
The advantage partially comes from the fact that developers are paid significantly above average wages, i.e. the average salary for most people is low (like 400 to 600 euros a month pre tax) yet developers take home 1,500 / 2,000 / 4,000 euros per month.
Cost of living + taxes are low as well.
The advantage partially comes from the fact that developers are paid significantly above average wages, i.e. the average salary for most people is low (like 400 to 600 euros a month pre tax) yet developers take home 1,500 / 2,000 / 4,000 euros per month.
Cost of living + taxes are low as well.
Honestly speaking, Tallinn is a boring place. Might be good for business but I don't see it as attractive for people willing to move, maybe in the short-term for a job but it's not a place I'd see many settling in.
Go visit it anyway, that's, of course, just my impression, but even living in Stockholm (a place I consider a bit boring for my standards of big city life) I found Tallinn very very dull.
Go visit it anyway, that's, of course, just my impression, but even living in Stockholm (a place I consider a bit boring for my standards of big city life) I found Tallinn very very dull.
To each their own! :o)
Having lived several years in London, and experienced plenty more cities including NYC and San Francisco I’m more than ready for boring. Indeed, this is why my current home town is Stockholm because I kind of agree with you – it’s a little bit boring and very safe, and I love it!
Having lived several years in London, and experienced plenty more cities including NYC and San Francisco I’m more than ready for boring. Indeed, this is why my current home town is Stockholm because I kind of agree with you – it’s a little bit boring and very safe, and I love it!
I have vague plans to visit too. And keep in mind Estonia already has produced a success story in tech: Skype.
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I really think none of these places (including Berlin) will be the Silicon Valley of Europe just because the salaries are too low. Why would talent leave elsewhere to go to eastern Europe and earn significantly less?
Better schools for your kids, safer cities, better public transport, more and better maintained parks, better local produce. There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that.
"Better schools for your kids"
You have better schools in the US if you live in the right neighborhood. Also, getting called "pig eater" is likely not tolerated in the US.
"safer cities" Europe is trying hard to catch up.
"better public transport" The only good thing. Yet, nothing beats public transport in NYC.
"more and better maintained parks" Not sure about this.
"better local produce" If you can afford to buy at Whole Paycheck, you get everything.
"There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that." The bottom line is: if you have money, life is better in the states. If you are poor, go to Germany.
You have better schools in the US if you live in the right neighborhood. Also, getting called "pig eater" is likely not tolerated in the US.
"safer cities" Europe is trying hard to catch up.
"better public transport" The only good thing. Yet, nothing beats public transport in NYC.
"more and better maintained parks" Not sure about this.
"better local produce" If you can afford to buy at Whole Paycheck, you get everything.
"There are a lot of potential reasons for a decision like that." The bottom line is: if you have money, life is better in the states. If you are poor, go to Germany.
It depends on where you are coming from I guess. I never really thought about people leaving the US. More like an intra-European competition for talent.
My point was however more targeted on the "go back home" guys. I (German) know several guys from Romania, Spain .. who don't plan to stay in Germany forever and just want to work here for a few years, earn good money (well compared to their country) and then return home.
This is however not possible if your home country has a higher cost of living.
My point was however more targeted on the "go back home" guys. I (German) know several guys from Romania, Spain .. who don't plan to stay in Germany forever and just want to work here for a few years, earn good money (well compared to their country) and then return home.
This is however not possible if your home country has a higher cost of living.
aren't these the usual plans of guest workers who never go back, because of the same reasons they left their home country?
Maybe that is so. But my point is still valid. If I PLAN to do this I cannot go to a country where salaries are much lower than in my home country where I want to return.
You really think Eastern Europe ranks highly in those values?
Compared to most American cities? Absolutely. The quality of life in Warsaw on $1,500 a month is vastly better than ~$4,000 a month in SV.
Can't speak for the others, but here's Sofia's situation(at least from my experience):
- don't know about schools, but kindergardens are a privilege you'll be fighting for
- it's fairly safe, obviously exercise common sense
- the metro is great, but it only covers part of the city, the rest of public transit ranges from ok to abysmal, but if you pay for a year, it's cheap as hell too. But I've certainly had no need for a car, so it's doable if inconvenient at times.
- cycling infrastructure is horrible, and there isn't enough of it, but it's there at least and I don't think it's stopped anyone who wants to cycle
- Parks are fine, plus there's a mountain here, so if you need green, you got it.
Other factors you might want to consider:
- air quality and traffic are horrible, especially in winter
- night life is fine
- you can find good food, and you can find cheap food, and if you look, you can find good cheap food.
- gov healthcare is bad, but if you're in tech, your employer might give you additional private insurance, so it's not something I've had to worry about.
- taxes are low
- alcohol is cheap and there are no ridiculous "no sale of alcohol on Sundays or after 10pm" rules some western countries seem to like :).
- tech scene is active so if you want to hang around with techies, you won't be bored
- cheap marginal space is very much available if you don't want/need a glossy hip office in a nice location.
Personally I love it and it's main advantage is that although it's much more expensive than the rest of the country, it's still cheap as hell. I don't make much but I save a lot, I could probably afford to work only every other year if I was frugal enough. I did consider moving for the north-west a while ago, but I did the math and...yeah, the up in purchasing power would be there, but not enough to justify leaving. I still might do it just for the novelty and experience at some point.
- don't know about schools, but kindergardens are a privilege you'll be fighting for
- it's fairly safe, obviously exercise common sense
- the metro is great, but it only covers part of the city, the rest of public transit ranges from ok to abysmal, but if you pay for a year, it's cheap as hell too. But I've certainly had no need for a car, so it's doable if inconvenient at times.
- cycling infrastructure is horrible, and there isn't enough of it, but it's there at least and I don't think it's stopped anyone who wants to cycle
- Parks are fine, plus there's a mountain here, so if you need green, you got it.
Other factors you might want to consider:
- air quality and traffic are horrible, especially in winter
- night life is fine
- you can find good food, and you can find cheap food, and if you look, you can find good cheap food.
- gov healthcare is bad, but if you're in tech, your employer might give you additional private insurance, so it's not something I've had to worry about.
- taxes are low
- alcohol is cheap and there are no ridiculous "no sale of alcohol on Sundays or after 10pm" rules some western countries seem to like :).
- tech scene is active so if you want to hang around with techies, you won't be bored
- cheap marginal space is very much available if you don't want/need a glossy hip office in a nice location.
Personally I love it and it's main advantage is that although it's much more expensive than the rest of the country, it's still cheap as hell. I don't make much but I save a lot, I could probably afford to work only every other year if I was frugal enough. I did consider moving for the north-west a while ago, but I did the math and...yeah, the up in purchasing power would be there, but not enough to justify leaving. I still might do it just for the novelty and experience at some point.
>Why would talent leave elsewhere to go to eastern Europe and earn significantly less?
I hope that whatever emerges in Europe is nothing but unattractive to Americans. The idea of Americans, particularly Bay Area techies who've already ruined a number of cities in that area, up and moving to Europe is utterly horrendous, as a European.
I hope that whatever emerges in Europe is nothing but unattractive to Americans. The idea of Americans, particularly Bay Area techies who've already ruined a number of cities in that area, up and moving to Europe is utterly horrendous, as a European.
"Warsaw, Sophia, Tallinn"
Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture.
Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.
Doubt that any East European city will be close to a "European Silicon Valley" because of many reasons. Language. Xenophobia. Capital. Location. Culture.
Bucharest comes to mind but because of other reasons. Quite big and Romania has a higher GDP growth than China. But still. no.
Before you downvote, give a reason. All these are interesting places. I likely prefer to live in Budapest or somewhere before I live in Berlin (again). Yet, this does not make these places a silicon valley contender.
Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.
Lisbon is a great place. I speak the language. Real Estate is already expensive as f.. if you want something decent. Great place to live or retire. But a new Silicon Valley? No.
Your point about "language" isn't convincing to me, as everyone speaks English in the IT sector anyway. And what sort of "xenophobia" are you referring to?
Many of the East European countries are not very open and friendly to foreigners. Speak Poland, Czech Republic for example. Travel there and see for yourself. Sometimes it is country specific (e.g. Russians and Germans in Poland) or Ethnic specific (Say Hungary and Poland) or sometimes they hate everyone (speak Czech republic). Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy.
People in Romania seem to be very friendly. GDP growth higher than China but not sure I see a basis for a silicon valley there. I don't know Bulgaria.
People in Romania seem to be very friendly. GDP growth higher than China but not sure I see a basis for a silicon valley there. I don't know Bulgaria.
In the Czech Republic, people are certainly more reserved and less outwardly cheerful than in the US, but it's got nothing to do with xenophobia. You won't have any issues making friends as a foreigner, just because people smile less and strangers don't instantly treat you as their best friend does not mean they hate you.
Czech Republic sort of has a reason for that.
They got ripped off after the cold war/ the wall fell - most of the countrys assets (land/buildings) beeing sold of to western investors for cheap.
Ironically that is what makes them so good at tech now- if all you got is your head and your skils and no investments to sit on, that blad will be sharp.
They got ripped off after the cold war/ the wall fell - most of the countrys assets (land/buildings) beeing sold of to western investors for cheap.
Ironically that is what makes them so good at tech now- if all you got is your head and your skils and no investments to sit on, that blad will be sharp.
"They got ripped off after the cold war/ the wall fell "
Also the buildings and land they stole from the Germans? It is a dog eats dog world man!
> Travel there to see yourself. Try to bring a foreign looking girl friend. Enjoy.
The condescending tone is uncalled for. As for the advice, I don't really need to travel as I've lived in Poland for my whole life (minus a few years spent abroad / in the UK). I've also been to several countries in the region, and yes I have indeed brought quite a few "foreign looking" friends with me, including an Italian girlfriend.
I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you on such a trip - assuming you're speaking from first-hand experience, rather than just propagating negative stereotypes - but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations.
The condescending tone is uncalled for. As for the advice, I don't really need to travel as I've lived in Poland for my whole life (minus a few years spent abroad / in the UK). I've also been to several countries in the region, and yes I have indeed brought quite a few "foreign looking" friends with me, including an Italian girlfriend.
I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you on such a trip - assuming you're speaking from first-hand experience, rather than just propagating negative stereotypes - but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations.
" including an Italian girlfriend."
Try to bring an Indian one. Or Chinese.
"I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you"
It is less about me. I have been there three times and I can take a lot. On my last trip, I spare you my experiences, I stayed one day in the hotel to work on my computer and my GF came back crying and told me she wants to leave and never come back. On the Train to Budapest I met an American Lady. She said, she would not come back to Prague, people are "harsh".
"but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations."
I saw once a statistic about foreigners (can't find it anymore). They were hated the most in the Czech republic, the most welcoming country was Uganda. BTW, I have lined up a trip to Uganda, there is a great music festival every summer.
Make you own experiences. It is not a terrible place, but why go to Prague if you can go to Budapest? Total different bunch already.
Try to bring an Indian one. Or Chinese.
"I'm sorry if something unpleasant happened to you"
It is less about me. I have been there three times and I can take a lot. On my last trip, I spare you my experiences, I stayed one day in the hotel to work on my computer and my GF came back crying and told me she wants to leave and never come back. On the Train to Budapest I met an American Lady. She said, she would not come back to Prague, people are "harsh".
"but it still wouldn't entitle such sweeping generalizations."
I saw once a statistic about foreigners (can't find it anymore). They were hated the most in the Czech republic, the most welcoming country was Uganda. BTW, I have lined up a trip to Uganda, there is a great music festival every summer.
Make you own experiences. It is not a terrible place, but why go to Prague if you can go to Budapest? Total different bunch already.
> I stayed one day in the hotel to work on my computer and my GF came back crying
You should have said that from the start. This definitely rules out Prague as the next Silicon Valley.
You should have said that from the start. This definitely rules out Prague as the next Silicon Valley.
The closest to Silicon Valley is London, however salaries there are pitiful. By the time Europe has any attempt to actually create an extremely well-paid bleeding-edge tech hub, that tech will be already in consolidation phase... Dream on.
For a fairly experienced developer in London you're looking at £60,000-£100,000 salary, which is $80,000-$135,000. Maybe not quite Silicon Valley but a far cry from pitiful. London is expensive to live, but nowhere near SV as far as I know.
I usually don't like phrases like "Europe's Silicon Valley" or "Venice of the North". As much as they can be informative in some respects, such comparisons obscure and brush over the specificities of the things in question. It makes more sense to talk about the emergence of a strong tech sector in general terms and as one component of a healthy economy.
Having said that, there is reason to think that the region in question will become Europe's most dynamic and technologically powerful, in particular Poland, because of a number of coinciding factors, such as entrepreneurial spirit lacking in Germany and west of it, geopolitical necessity and historical precedent.
The geopolitical angle is quite interesting. Poland and the other countries sandwiched between Germany and Russia are situated on a geopolitical fault line that demands that these countries cooperate out of mutual interest. Economic strength becomes one pillar in maintaining not just a materially comfortable existence but a matter of existential importance and of independence. That's a pretty strong motivator given the history of the region. On top of that, the United States has a geopolitical interest in the region's strength. We know from analogous cases that American interest of this kind has usually contributed positively to regional and thus economic strength. And from recent developments vis-a-vis the Three Seas Initiative, we are witnessing a formal recognition of the necessity of regional strength by the countries in that region. In fact, the recent brouhaha in the European Commission over Poland is, when interpreted synoptically, a telltale sign of the country's rising importance.
Having said that, there is reason to think that the region in question will become Europe's most dynamic and technologically powerful, in particular Poland, because of a number of coinciding factors, such as entrepreneurial spirit lacking in Germany and west of it, geopolitical necessity and historical precedent.
The geopolitical angle is quite interesting. Poland and the other countries sandwiched between Germany and Russia are situated on a geopolitical fault line that demands that these countries cooperate out of mutual interest. Economic strength becomes one pillar in maintaining not just a materially comfortable existence but a matter of existential importance and of independence. That's a pretty strong motivator given the history of the region. On top of that, the United States has a geopolitical interest in the region's strength. We know from analogous cases that American interest of this kind has usually contributed positively to regional and thus economic strength. And from recent developments vis-a-vis the Three Seas Initiative, we are witnessing a formal recognition of the necessity of regional strength by the countries in that region. In fact, the recent brouhaha in the European Commission over Poland is, when interpreted synoptically, a telltale sign of the country's rising importance.
They especially have much better talent, compared to the Berlin ruby/php/javascript hipsters.
Sorry for the hipsters, but Berlin is the capital of the biggest economy in Europe and it was once one of the biggest metropolises in the world plus one of the biggest hubs of economy and science.
It was always destined to go towards its past glory once Germany reunited. The only question was: "how long will it take for that to happen?".
It was always destined to go towards its past glory once Germany reunited. The only question was: "how long will it take for that to happen?".
Two points of contention:
1. It's not just hipsters this is affecting
2. This is not necessarily a move towards "glory". Most Berliners value the arts and cultural scene that exists in part due to low rents/cost of living and readily available performance/exhibition spaces. To see Berlin turned into another Silicon Valley would for most of us here be a major downgrade
1. It's not just hipsters this is affecting
2. This is not necessarily a move towards "glory". Most Berliners value the arts and cultural scene that exists in part due to low rents/cost of living and readily available performance/exhibition spaces. To see Berlin turned into another Silicon Valley would for most of us here be a major downgrade
Ok, to clarify a bit: cities are roughly ranked into categories. The rankings are quite fuzzy but I still think they're a good starting point for discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
Based on the geostrategic importance of Berlin (capital of Germany, the biggest city in Germany, central position in the EU, etc.) it should be an Alpha+ city, if not an Alpha++ city. Right now it's not due to a historical accident that is being "fixed": the separation into West and East.
According to that study from 2004 (ancient, I agree), Berlin was classified as Beta. For comparison, they classified Bucharest as Beta+. I'm Romanian, but there's no way that makes any sense unless Berlin is "underperforming".
So if you're a Berliner, brace yourself! Want it or not, Berlin will move up in the world to its rightful place and prices will go up accordingly.
Based on the geostrategic importance of Berlin (capital of Germany, the biggest city in Germany, central position in the EU, etc.) it should be an Alpha+ city, if not an Alpha++ city. Right now it's not due to a historical accident that is being "fixed": the separation into West and East.
According to that study from 2004 (ancient, I agree), Berlin was classified as Beta. For comparison, they classified Bucharest as Beta+. I'm Romanian, but there's no way that makes any sense unless Berlin is "underperforming".
So if you're a Berliner, brace yourself! Want it or not, Berlin will move up in the world to its rightful place and prices will go up accordingly.
This list is heavily biased by political influence.
The fact that "Luxembourg" - a glorified village is an "Alpha" city says more about it's significance in the European Union than any amenities/industry/jobs/lifestyle that exist (or rather don't exist) in the city.
The fact that "Luxembourg" - a glorified village is an "Alpha" city says more about it's significance in the European Union than any amenities/industry/jobs/lifestyle that exist (or rather don't exist) in the city.
Germany (Prussia in particular) extended quite a ways further east of Berlin when it was capital before; Berlin was the Prussian capital.
It is however very central for Europe, and is fairly well placed for growth in the eastern EU.
It is however very central for Europe, and is fairly well placed for growth in the eastern EU.
Maybe Leipzig is the new Berlin :)
It's closer to just being Hypezig.
Source: am from Leipzig.
Source: am from Leipzig.
If so then Dresden. Dresden has all the brains and the industry. Plus it's the most beautiful town in Germany.
>Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.
It might happen- but it still wont have an airport.
It might happen- but it still wont have an airport.
Munich is still the city with the most IT jobs and companies - I don't know if Berlin will catch up.
Berlin has this start-up flare image, but based on numbers that's just not true.
I agree on Munich - and most of its startups are in tough topics involving hardware such as robotics, IoT etc. Still believe that engineering B2B is a better fit for a startup company in Germany than the often B2C model in silicon valley.
Yep, and compared to Munich, the startups I've seen in Berlin are extremely unimpressive.
It'll probably still have two airports.. Luckily the flight to Frankfurt is short and from there you can connect to most places in the world. But wouldn't be surprised if Tegel gets a few more direct connection to the US west coast.
Nice overview of the cost involved of trying to build the Berlin Airport: https://www.flughafen-berlin-kosten.de/
It has two airports. They're just kind of small and weird (or at least Tegel is; haven't been to the other one).
Berlin has two airports, Tegel and Schoenefeld.
I think it's more likely to be Amsterdam, Zurich or Stockholm.
Large corporations don't want their headquarters in Berlin for tax reasons: There's a reason they're all moving to Switzerland.
The tech scene in Europe is very scattered.
Large corporations don't want their headquarters in Berlin for tax reasons: There's a reason they're all moving to Switzerland.
The tech scene in Europe is very scattered.
Stockholm has a thriving tech industry and not really low tax rates. Tech can easily headquarter in a low tax domicile and employ most people in another country, all bigger companies are already doing that. I don't think that the difference in income tax explains where tech companies settle, it'll be much more dependent on availability of talent (and how easy it is to get people to move there). That's why Amsterdam, Berlin and Stockholm are so successful, they are all within the EU and have a good reputation with internationals.
Yeah, but a huge problem with finding accommodation for it's recruits. In contrast to Berlin it's impossible to get a first hand rent contract. A second hand is going to be super expensive and buying somewhere somewhat central is ridiculously expensive.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nordics-housing/both-immi...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nordics-housing/both-immi...
Wow.
I was there ~15 years ago and it was bad then. It's remarkable that it's even worse now.
Stockholm is a fairly small city too. A million or so roughly.
I was there ~15 years ago and it was bad then. It's remarkable that it's even worse now.
Stockholm is a fairly small city too. A million or so roughly.
So why is the car industry and the chip industry in Dresden then? It's about the talent.
Not only Brexit escapees but from all over the periphery - it felt like half of Portugal, Italy and Greece was in Amsterdam. Same here in Berlin.
> I think Berlins "Poor but happy"
It went „poor but sexy”. The city is still poor but now got wrinkles and gray hairs here and there.
It went „poor but sexy”. The city is still poor but now got wrinkles and gray hairs here and there.
Slightly Off Topic:
I thought Germany has some form of protection by law so rent and property market don't get to hike the prices to whatever they want. So while the world 's property market is on fire by QE, Berlin hasn't moved a needle at all.
So why has rent risen so much?
I thought Germany has some form of protection by law so rent and property market don't get to hike the prices to whatever they want. So while the world 's property market is on fire by QE, Berlin hasn't moved a needle at all.
So why has rent risen so much?
Germany has fairly strong protection against rent increases for existing tenants: during a tenancy the rent can only increase up to the "ortsübliche Vergleichsmiete" (average rent of comparable properties in the same town), and by a maximum of 15%/20% (depending on location, 15% in Berlin) over three years.
In Berlin and many other cities there's also rent stabilization ("Mietpreisbremse") for new tenants: new leases on old properties may not exceed the maximum of 110% of the "ortsübliche Vergleichsmiete" and the previous tenant's rent. This falls away if the property is substantially renovated.
Renovations can stop both of these from working: in the former case by increasing the value of the apartment so that the set of "comparable properties" is much more expensive, possibly forcing the current tenant out so a new, wealthier tenant can be found to negotiate a new contract; in the second case, the control falls away completely if the value of renovations in the last five (?) years is at least a third of the total value.
The Mietpreisbremse is widely ignored: advertised rents exceed the limit for more often than not, and the landlords choose tenants they think are least likely to sue over it. The worst case for the landlord is that they have to pay back the difference from the point where the tenant complained; the best case is that the Federal Constitutional Court invalidates the law (which is fairly new and not yet judicially tested).
In Berlin and many other cities there's also rent stabilization ("Mietpreisbremse") for new tenants: new leases on old properties may not exceed the maximum of 110% of the "ortsübliche Vergleichsmiete" and the previous tenant's rent. This falls away if the property is substantially renovated.
Renovations can stop both of these from working: in the former case by increasing the value of the apartment so that the set of "comparable properties" is much more expensive, possibly forcing the current tenant out so a new, wealthier tenant can be found to negotiate a new contract; in the second case, the control falls away completely if the value of renovations in the last five (?) years is at least a third of the total value.
The Mietpreisbremse is widely ignored: advertised rents exceed the limit for more often than not, and the landlords choose tenants they think are least likely to sue over it. The worst case for the landlord is that they have to pay back the difference from the point where the tenant complained; the best case is that the Federal Constitutional Court invalidates the law (which is fairly new and not yet judicially tested).
This is something that Spain also has (and is being phased out). I live in Barcelona, I pay 1000 euros for my two bed apartment, every 3 years the rent has to be renegotiated. My lovely neighbour who is 92 pays under 100 euros for the exact same flat opposite mine, she is on guaranteed rent protection, my neighbours below who are in their early 70s pay around 250 for the same flat.
The fact rent protection is being phased out makes me really sad, speculation will become even more rife (I can understand that extreme rent protection like above may not be workable but something in between is needed imo).
The fact rent protection is being phased out makes me really sad, speculation will become even more rife (I can understand that extreme rent protection like above may not be workable but something in between is needed imo).
They always find some loophole. Often it's some kind of construction work like "improving isolation". AFAIK the rent control laws also don't apply for furnished flats.
It's mainly because the rents in Berlin had been comparatively extremely low in average. What happened in the last 5-10 years is more or less an adjustment to other cities in Germany e.g. Hamburg or Munich. But it is a big problem, the typical young IT worker can afford it, but the wages of "normal" workers didn't rise much, so gentrification happened like crazy in all central districts.
It has risen for newer rentals. If I remember correctly, you can increase the rent max 3% per year for an ongoing contract and 10% in a new rental contract.
> Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.
Reminds me of this classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e22vY4CWpEI
Reminds me of this classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e22vY4CWpEI
It does have two international airports:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tegel_Airport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Sch%C3%B6nefeld_Airport
Although they are planned to be closed when the third one opens(this one doesn't have a lack of issues though):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tegel_Airport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Sch%C3%B6nefeld_Airport
Although they are planned to be closed when the third one opens(this one doesn't have a lack of issues though):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport
I think people think at something like FRA or LHR when talking about an international airport.
Tegel+Schoenefeld have combined ~30M passengers per year. FRA has ~65M, and LHR has ~80M.
Number of intercontinental flights from Berlin is just super low s.t. most business travelers fly do a stopover in FRA.
Tegel+Schoenefeld have combined ~30M passengers per year. FRA has ~65M, and LHR has ~80M.
Number of intercontinental flights from Berlin is just super low s.t. most business travelers fly do a stopover in FRA.
> Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.
If Europe doesn’t pass more startups-killing laws, sure.
If Europe doesn’t pass more startups-killing laws, sure.
I can't help but think of that Leanord Cohen song, "First we take Manhatten".
This is also Mutti Merkel's proclaimed goal, stated like 10 years ago. She is patient, but she usually achieves what she sets out to do.
The quickest growing software cluster in Europe is Dresden, though.
> it lacks an international airport
Berlin has an international airport.
Berlin has an international airport.
Sorry, I think I meant transatlantic airport, or a "large" airport. Not sure, it used to lack something I heard but not sure exactly what and if it's still true. They're struggling with building a new one so something :)
I've just checked: there are plenty of direct flights each day from Berlin to New York for example. It is not the central hub like Frankfurt is, but I doubt you won't fly to Berlin because it does not have enough infrastructure...
The lack of direct flights is partly due to the short connection to Frankfurt from where you can connect to most destinations in the world. That's also why some other German cities (Hamburg, Cologne, Hannover) have few transcontinental flights, despite the demand. There has been an increase in direct flights from Berlin recently but towards the US, Heathrow and Frankfurt are on the way and BA/LH can price out competitors easily.
Berlin is certainly underserved given its size but that's just the Frankfurt effect (an airport with >60m passengers p.a. for a city <1m population).
Berlin is certainly underserved given its size but that's just the Frankfurt effect (an airport with >60m passengers p.a. for a city <1m population).
>The lack of direct flights is partly due to the short connection to Frankfurt from where you can connect to most destinations in the world.
That's assuming you don't miss your connection and lose an hour or two getting rebooked, or dealing with lost luggage.
That's assuming you don't miss your connection and lose an hour or two getting rebooked, or dealing with lost luggage.
There might be transatlantic flights from Tegel, I'm not sure, but they're rare. Moscow and the Canary Islands are more or less the limits. I usually find myself going through Frankfurt, Paris or Amsterdam for intercontinental travel.
I was in Tegel a while ago, flying home to Dublin, so was in a non-Schengen section (Ireland's not in Schengen). The flight at the next gate was going to Beijing. I was kind of surprised, because Tegel has a very "small regional airport" feel (partially due to the weird design), but apparently there are flights to the other side of the world from there.
Dresden and Budapest much better options nearby :)
It's "poor but sexy".
Its overrated in my opinion. I never really understood the appeal.
Because you got there way too late.
~ 8 or 9 years ago?
Actually yes, hafta say.
Granted there are few places in the world that are exactly the same as they were 20 or 30 years ago. But then again, certain places -- like San Francisco New York, London, and many, many other cities -- have arguably "tipped" to an extent such that, while the postcard views are pretty much the same -- the overall vibe and intensity is but a glimmer of what it once was.
And sadly, Berlin seems to be one of those places.
Granted there are few places in the world that are exactly the same as they were 20 or 30 years ago. But then again, certain places -- like San Francisco New York, London, and many, many other cities -- have arguably "tipped" to an extent such that, while the postcard views are pretty much the same -- the overall vibe and intensity is but a glimmer of what it once was.
And sadly, Berlin seems to be one of those places.
"Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years."
Doubt it. Lack of professional attitude. Disastrous politicians. 3rd tier universities. Lack of capital. Large underclass, big welfare spending.
It is very hard to set up a "silicon valley". The silicon valley had and has some very unique points, including military origins, if I remember right. Germany still has a strong and broad industry, which is lacking in most Eastern and Western European Economies. This is an advantage (try to do a non-software technology start-up in a country that does not have the suppliers and partners, then you know). In the end it is extremely unlikely that EUrope will achieve something similar than the Silicon valley.
Yes, Berlin once was a scientific, cultural, industrial and technological powerhouse. These times won't come back.
The more interesting question would be, can China manage to create a new silicon valley? I have my doubts.
Doubt it. Lack of professional attitude. Disastrous politicians. 3rd tier universities. Lack of capital. Large underclass, big welfare spending.
It is very hard to set up a "silicon valley". The silicon valley had and has some very unique points, including military origins, if I remember right. Germany still has a strong and broad industry, which is lacking in most Eastern and Western European Economies. This is an advantage (try to do a non-software technology start-up in a country that does not have the suppliers and partners, then you know). In the end it is extremely unlikely that EUrope will achieve something similar than the Silicon valley.
Yes, Berlin once was a scientific, cultural, industrial and technological powerhouse. These times won't come back.
The more interesting question would be, can China manage to create a new silicon valley? I have my doubts.
> Large underclass, big welfare spending.
I don't know what the comparable figures in Berlin are, but in Silicon Valley, about 11% live in poverty.
"About 11.3 percent of Bay Area residents are living at or below the poverty level, according to the report, “Poverty in the Bay Area,” that was released by the Joint Venture Silicon Valley Institute for Regional Studies. The data reflects levels reached in 2013, the most recent year for which these statistics are available."
https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/04/01/poverty-rates-near-re...
I don't know what the comparable figures in Berlin are, but in Silicon Valley, about 11% live in poverty.
"About 11.3 percent of Bay Area residents are living at or below the poverty level, according to the report, “Poverty in the Bay Area,” that was released by the Joint Venture Silicon Valley Institute for Regional Studies. The data reflects levels reached in 2013, the most recent year for which these statistics are available."
https://www.mercurynews.com/2015/04/01/poverty-rates-near-re...
The lack of legacy, good CS universities and capital may matter, I don't see how the other things you mention matter. The big plus is it's a great place to live - it is where things happen.
IMO computer science education is crap everywhere in Germany - it's either mathematics or latest hype topic with no "working technology" in the middle. Professors say informatics alumni will design algorithms, programming is for the plebs, or some such. Where do I even start?
There isn't a single respected programming language from Germany. We have nothing like OCaml, or Python, or INRIA or EPFL or ETH Zürich for that matter.
IMO computer science education is crap everywhere in Germany - it's either mathematics or latest hype topic with no "working technology" in the middle. Professors say informatics alumni will design algorithms, programming is for the plebs, or some such. Where do I even start?
There isn't a single respected programming language from Germany. We have nothing like OCaml, or Python, or INRIA or EPFL or ETH Zürich for that matter.
May I ask which part of Germany you live in and specifically what your opinion about TUM, KIT and RWTH Aachen is then?
I think it is logically not profound to speak for whole Germany.
I think it is logically not profound to speak for whole Germany.
I think it matters more where I studied. First Heidelberg, then FU Berlin - actually Physics with secondary subject CS. TUM, KIT and RWTH are maybe the best at CS in Germany, but IMO still not good. What are they known for except being good universities for CS?
The fact that you are asking this question makes me believe that you are speaking without having tried to search for an answer on your own. As a CS graduate with secondary subject Mathematics from TUM, I can only speak on behalf of it. You might find https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=194&v=iu6UboRqan... interesting.
How do you know that TUM is not good enough? Probably you are referring to its popularity abroad? Well its definitely worse than that of Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Caltech, etc. But heck, we don't have Hollywood to constantly make plugs in blockbuster movies to boost worldwide opinion.
How do you know that TUM is not good enough? Probably you are referring to its popularity abroad? Well its definitely worse than that of Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Caltech, etc. But heck, we don't have Hollywood to constantly make plugs in blockbuster movies to boost worldwide opinion.
I think that what he is referring to is the lack of big leadership in one (or many) tech sector .
From the examples he mentions, I know automatically (without searching for it) for example that Scala originated at EPFL, that ETHZ (& EPFL to a lesser extent) produce some of the most advanced things related to drones, that OCaml originated in France and is pushed by INRIA, etc... But there is nothing coming immediately to mind about TUM
From the examples he mentions, I know automatically (without searching for it) for example that Scala originated at EPFL, that ETHZ (& EPFL to a lesser extent) produce some of the most advanced things related to drones, that OCaml originated in France and is pushed by INRIA, etc... But there is nothing coming immediately to mind about TUM
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I live in the neighbourhood, very close to where the "campus" is being built. I understand that Google has a lot of symbolic value in the protests, but I don't think that it actually will have such an impact. Paul-linke-ufer is already full of startups and relatively affluent american hipsters flood the caffes in the hood. That is also ok, I guess, (like UFO361 says hahaha), people in the end can live wherever they want. But what is not ok is the cartel-like tactics that Berliner landlords use to rise rents. In Germany people tend to not own flats, but this means many buildings are owned by big companies with lots of pressure power when they want to do mass rent increases. They do really shady things like playing with the WBS (social housing) rules against the renters, like with these renters in Maybachufer: https://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/1086567.falsches-sp... The rents went up 17% last year in and this rate is increasing every year. This is really worrying and I hope the city becomes serious about it.
I don't think the majority is protesting specifically against the campus building. But rather against Google as a tax evading company and global brand of personal data gathering.
In that sense they're in the same category as your landlords. Economic crime favoring the rich.
But what do I know, I'm not even in Germany. You should go to the protest and ask them.
In that sense they're in the same category as your landlords. Economic crime favoring the rich.
But what do I know, I'm not even in Germany. You should go to the protest and ask them.
Paul-Lincke-Ufer was my first flat in Berlin, in 2008. A bedroom then went for €400/mo, and that was considered high then. Now I imagine it is 3-4x that.
I had a tiny studio with coal heating on Maybachufer in 1996 for under 200 DM (!) per month, "warm" (i.e. with the coal it was about 200).
But even back then: a single company owned the building, and kicked everyone out so they could renovate and get their gentrification bonus. To help motivate the older residents they started the exceptionally noisy renovation work at 6am every day.
But even back then: a single company owned the building, and kicked everyone out so they could renovate and get their gentrification bonus. To help motivate the older residents they started the exceptionally noisy renovation work at 6am every day.
I always find it amusing that American companies, be it Amazon or Google, are surprised that people don't want them here. They seem to really believe people love them, whereas in fact people use them because they have to, and put up with problems caused by them also because they have to.
I don't think that anyone is surprised here. The quote is:
> I think Google were surprised that they came up against opposition,” says Stefan Klein, a local activist with the GloReiche neighbourhood group at one of their twice-weekly open sessions.
So, one activist thinks that Google is surprised (which sounds quite naive IMHO).
Then later in the article:
> A Google spokesman in Berlin says that the company has spoken to residents about their concerns and is incorporating their feedback into its plans. “We live in Berlin ourselves, we understand the concerns of neighbours about gentrification and know how Kreuzberg has been developing in recent years.”
> I think Google were surprised that they came up against opposition,” says Stefan Klein, a local activist with the GloReiche neighbourhood group at one of their twice-weekly open sessions.
So, one activist thinks that Google is surprised (which sounds quite naive IMHO).
Then later in the article:
> A Google spokesman in Berlin says that the company has spoken to residents about their concerns and is incorporating their feedback into its plans. “We live in Berlin ourselves, we understand the concerns of neighbours about gentrification and know how Kreuzberg has been developing in recent years.”
I'm not saying Google was surprised, but a spokesperson would have to be pretty poor at their job if they admitted they were caught off-guard.
People who work in Tech usually love Google though. They produce usable software, pay well, offer real career opportunities. The only thing Techies don't like about Google is their very american way of doing work. Although the pay might be _much_ worse, the working conditions in pure German software dev companies is usually better.
I am not expecting Google to pay significantly more than market rate salaries in Berlin, why would they ?
Good question. And the answer is the difference between companies who just want to make a profit (won't pay above market rate and hire anybody) and companies who want to dominate the world (will pay above market but will take only limited set of ppl).
They are also moving right into the most radical left-wing area of Berlin, perhaps Germany, SO 36. When the protest there will die out, there won't be any other, and this seemingly unstoppable gentrification will just continue as elsewhere and the lower class will be quietly pushed further out to make way for the global tech class.
Perhaps that is what it is on a philosophical level, a new class is being born and asserts itself and creates its own living space and gentrification is the tool that makes this happened (global tech companies are just another "innocent" manifestation of this). It segregates them and us and just like all former classes also preferred to live segregated and monocultural.
Perhaps that is what it is on a philosophical level, a new class is being born and asserts itself and creates its own living space and gentrification is the tool that makes this happened (global tech companies are just another "innocent" manifestation of this). It segregates them and us and just like all former classes also preferred to live segregated and monocultural.
One important thing that's not at all clear from the article: this is not a campus for Google employees a la Googleplex, but a capital-C Campus run by Google for Entrepreneurs, meaning basically a coworking space/startup incubator that happens to be run by Google. So even if it's built, the people working there won't be Googlers, but random startup people in Berlin.
https://www.googleforentrepreneurs.com/campuses/
https://www.googleforentrepreneurs.com/campuses/
Thanks! That was really not clear in the article, and after their list of existing Google campuses, I wondered what had happened to Zurich and Sydney...
I live in this neighbourhood and my office is on the same street, one block from the new campus. The area is nice and lively, so I get people want an office there (hell, I did the same!). But Google has the means to positively impact the less hip, more strugling parts of Berlin. I bet people would welcome them with open arms in Marzhan or Wedding.
This is true, but Google isn't a philanthropic organization. They want to profit from the reflective "hipness" that comes from being based in Kreuzberg, even if by being there they accelerate the destruction of that same hipness.
Yes, but would the people Google wants to hire want to work in Marzahn or Wedding?
If Google is there, they would. And if not Berlin is one of the few cities on this planet where people actually live in the city center and drive outside for work.
IBM has a train station outside of the city in Scotland, why couldn't Google do that?
People already do for things like university and other companies around the airports. It would be an experiment for Google of course, but they have the means and it could change public opinion massively.
I worked in Charité in Wedding - it was fine, the only pain was I was living in Schlachtensee so I had a huge commute every day.
Since most people in those neighborhoods are already suffering under increasing rent prices, I really doubt many of them would be happy to have another gentrifying influence near them.
I live right in the middle of this and have been been collecting photos of posters and other relics - which I always promptly send to my friend now working at Google (elsewhere). The neighbourhood is definitely changing. A key fact is that the protests stem from the anarchist / squatter scene that is based literally next block.
It kinda seems like the protestors build their arguments around the fact that they don't like Google, not vice versa.
Also it's amusing how the article struggles with "Umspannwerk"
Also it's amusing how the article struggles with "Umspannwerk"
Obviously they can oppose all they want, but the fact of the matter is that most people are going to love the jobs and opportunities it will bring. Whether that is high-paying jobs in engineering or management, middle-paying in hospitality, construction, renovation, or lower-paying in cleaning/janitorial.
At least it's my perspective that these sorts of neighbourhood changes are impossible to prevent. Does anyone know of any examples otherwise?
At least it's my perspective that these sorts of neighbourhood changes are impossible to prevent. Does anyone know of any examples otherwise?
Kreuzberg is different. It’s a traditionally leftist district. Every May Day there are clashes with police. At least when I lived there. It may eventually change but the people there are not as money focused. They are more culture focused in the sense of wanting local business over large corporations. Most people there are not going to love the accompanying jobs. Some jobs aren’t worth the cost. Some are.
The article makes it sound really bigger than it is. From what I experienced the opposition is quite small, signs anti-google are only visible in a few specific locations in one neighborhood, and in general only a few people are vocal against it (mostly anarchists or anti capitalists activists). I would expect some level of opposition from a fringe of the population in any city where Google or other tech giants want to open offices.
Correct. The weekly Friday night protests are pretty small. A recurring thing in Berlin seems that the very vocal squatters/antifa's drown out the moderate majority. I do symphatize, although weirdly the left in Berlin is so conservative and anti-change that sometimes they are hard to support.
Perhaps it's a victory for the publicist of the people against it.
It would be very interesting to see if there were many, or even any more people than in that photo at the protest.
When I was at Uni I went to some protests that had ~30 people at them. Then the photo and even a bit of clever TV footage made it seem like those few people were at the centre of a much larger protest.
It would be very interesting to see if there were many, or even any more people than in that photo at the protest.
When I was at Uni I went to some protests that had ~30 people at them. Then the photo and even a bit of clever TV footage made it seem like those few people were at the centre of a much larger protest.
"Google campus will only have 6-10 employees"
Kreuzberg is...special.
Kreuzberg is...special.
Why would they build a whole campus just for 10 employees?
The article mentions that place would be a hub for entrepreneurs, providing workspace for startup founders as well as networking and educational events.
It is basically what The Factory is already with its two Locations in Berlin. A place to cowork, for meetups, networking and some startup offices.
https://factoryberlin.com/
Because lots of Google employees travel for a significant amount of their time and many visit Berlin often.
But to me, campus sounds like something that can host at least 500 to 1000 people. So Google should communicate properly that they are building a private co-working space, not a real campus
As a Berliner, I find it hard to understand the resistance. On the one hand everybody cries out here about the rising rent and the stagnating wages and on the other hand there is this opposition against bigger companies (e. g. Google or big media companies at the Spree). Gentrification will happen anyway because of investors buying off apartments, houses or complete blocks. Berlin has one of the highest tax on purchasing housing space in Germany which is really bad for people buying apartments but doesn't matter for investors that buy as a business since they can get them partially back with their tax returns (not possible if you use the space yourself instead of renting it out).
Big companies would give the market some incentive to raise the wages, which I know is at first bad for small startups but also attracts so much talent that it will balance out at some point (I hope).
I guess this is part of the Berlin culture, being innovative and free minded but also being completely against any change. Only 10 waking minutes away from the future Google campus there is this big fight about reworking the riverside of the Landwehrkanal which should make it accessible for Wheelchairs and baby strollers as well as bikes but people are protesting, living in one of the best appartments with still cheap rent because of their old contracts. Before that there was this even bigger fight about a small part of the old Tempelhof airport area. The city planned to build houses and office space there. I can't imagine any other city (with a housing crisis) where people would oppose to this. The fear was that a nature reservation area would suffer which according to plan would have been not be the case.
Probably it's a matter of view points, there are the new economy workers like myself waiting for companies to settle in Berlin (not so many there because of the cities history) and then there is the other side with people in really low paying jobs that fear exclusion, totally valid. I don't have numbers but I could imagine that Berlin as quite a bit discrepancy between low and high income households with quite many on the lower end because it has so few big industries.
Cheap Berlin only exists in some parts and mainly myths. Friends of mine pay the same rent in Munich for comparable apartments while going out can be cheaper in Berlin but only if you know where to go, the beer price is mostly the same, food depends. The wages are much lower in Berlin, for developers it's at junior entry at around 10.000€ per year less.
Big companies would give the market some incentive to raise the wages, which I know is at first bad for small startups but also attracts so much talent that it will balance out at some point (I hope).
I guess this is part of the Berlin culture, being innovative and free minded but also being completely against any change. Only 10 waking minutes away from the future Google campus there is this big fight about reworking the riverside of the Landwehrkanal which should make it accessible for Wheelchairs and baby strollers as well as bikes but people are protesting, living in one of the best appartments with still cheap rent because of their old contracts. Before that there was this even bigger fight about a small part of the old Tempelhof airport area. The city planned to build houses and office space there. I can't imagine any other city (with a housing crisis) where people would oppose to this. The fear was that a nature reservation area would suffer which according to plan would have been not be the case.
Probably it's a matter of view points, there are the new economy workers like myself waiting for companies to settle in Berlin (not so many there because of the cities history) and then there is the other side with people in really low paying jobs that fear exclusion, totally valid. I don't have numbers but I could imagine that Berlin as quite a bit discrepancy between low and high income households with quite many on the lower end because it has so few big industries.
Cheap Berlin only exists in some parts and mainly myths. Friends of mine pay the same rent in Munich for comparable apartments while going out can be cheaper in Berlin but only if you know where to go, the beer price is mostly the same, food depends. The wages are much lower in Berlin, for developers it's at junior entry at around 10.000€ per year less.
As a Berliner I find this hideous. There are so many high end work spaces in Berlin which push the rents anyway. This is mostly invisible to the angry mob but with Google they have a fall guy. This is completely distracting from the underlying structural problems.
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ces allemands sont fous
The right way to say that would be :
"Ils sont fous ces Goths"
"Ils sont fous ces Goths"
Berlin kinda, from what I understand, enjoyed it's special culture much because it wasn't an industrial city and lacked an large international airport, but cheap rent, international vibe and fun hipster values seems like the perfect void for tech to move into now that rents and prices in the usual "big cities" have gone through the roof. I can also imagine cities like Amsterdam and Berlin getting some Brexit escapees.
Mark my words, Berlin will be Europe's Silicon Valley within a few years.