Ask HN: How do you avoid the 9 to 5 life?
93 comments
A first year student that doesn't know what they want to do with themselves? No way! /s
If you're passionate about being a developer, there's lots of ways to avoid being a cubicle drone. Whether that is just having a 9-5 job that is more casual (like at a start-up, though expect longer hours at many of them), or by freelancing/consulting.
I'd advise swapping to computer science whole hog though if you can. If you had 5-10 years experience it would matter less, but as someone that's super green having that piece of paper _will_ help you get that first dev job. "I'm not good enough at Math" is not going to make any employer want to hire you!
If you're passionate about being a developer, there's lots of ways to avoid being a cubicle drone. Whether that is just having a 9-5 job that is more casual (like at a start-up, though expect longer hours at many of them), or by freelancing/consulting.
I'd advise swapping to computer science whole hog though if you can. If you had 5-10 years experience it would matter less, but as someone that's super green having that piece of paper _will_ help you get that first dev job. "I'm not good enough at Math" is not going to make any employer want to hire you!
I see what you mean about the cs degree and I agree with you, but I don't want to whole hog on it. This would take a lot of my energy away from other things. My hope is that my taking the most useful cs classes to learn the fundamentals and pairing that with working on projects on my own (developing an app in react native right now) will help me get a dev job if I want one down the line.
If you enjoy computer science, keep taking the classes. Work can be fun if it’s something you enjoy. You can get through the math.
Easy. Work at a startup and 9-5 because Midnight to Midnight :)
Honestly? I don't! I've done the freelance thing, I've worked for several startups, and the lack of structure got to me. Fast. I'm able to let my job be my job, and my home life be my home life. I like it. I have time for my hobbies. I can actually schedule stuff.
I joined the military for a few years after my degree because I wasn't ready for a 9 to 5 life either.
In a technical role, or as a grunt? If the former, what branch and how was it?
All roles in a modern military these days are pretty technical, even if you are an infantry soldier. There is a lot of sophisticated equipment and complicated and dangerous situations. I wouldn't call anyone a grunt.
But not a CS technical role, no. I was an officer in the Medical Corps.
It was awesome - most of my friends with normal jobs got bad graduate blues but I was active and doing things with real impact. It was exactly what I needed.
But not a CS technical role, no. I was an officer in the Medical Corps.
It was awesome - most of my friends with normal jobs got bad graduate blues but I was active and doing things with real impact. It was exactly what I needed.
Sorry - I meant "grunt" in the sense of "POGs" / what your MOS was. Thank you for your service, especially as a corpsman.
www.MakeSchool.com
Just start doing the stuff you want to do! If you have a project or something interesting you want to pursue, dig into what you need to make it happen. You'll learn a ton along the way and get a better understand of what you like and don't like.
That's really good advice.
One way to start: if you're taking cs classes, take programming exercises further, twist the assignment, take it to something you want to use. Make it like a game, pay special attention to graphics.
One way to start: if you're taking cs classes, take programming exercises further, twist the assignment, take it to something you want to use. Make it like a game, pay special attention to graphics.
I am doing this right now, testing an idea for an app and learning how to make mobile apps in react native.
You can't (at least not in the computer/web dev field). You could work odd/not normal hours but you will still be putting in the same ~40 hours a week. That's all unless you have some kind of passive income/wealth from parents & relatives.
This is a very narrow view of the industry.
I haven't worked 'regular 9-5 hours' for any meaningful length of time (i.e. beyond a few days here or there), basically ever, and I entered the field 15 years ago.
I've worked for state & federal government departments, contract agencies, and I now work directly with clients through my company.
I haven't worked 'regular 9-5 hours' for any meaningful length of time (i.e. beyond a few days here or there), basically ever, and I entered the field 15 years ago.
I've worked for state & federal government departments, contract agencies, and I now work directly with clients through my company.
What is your actual issue? Is 9-5 not enough? Or is it too much? Or do you want flexible hours?
I never fit into the 9-5 or corporate life, so most of my career has been spent working for myself. The biggest challenge was being ok with not making a lot of money, and focusing more on the benefits of working for myself, from home, and the ability to set my own schedule; presently 11a-4p
:-)
What do you do for a living?
Business school is not just for consultants and investment bankers. It's probably the one place at a university where people get to read about different business models, so why not see if there is a type of business that suits your lifestyle requirements?
In my experience, it was mostly for future consultants and investment bankers. I'd say that's what 90% of my classmates ended up doing.
Got my bachelor's in business. For me, it was a mistake. I realized that I had no desire to do what my peers were doing, and that I was otherwise unskilled. Took a long time to build real skills in programming. Still playing catch-up.
Unless you have a specific reason for business, e.g., "I want to be a CPA" or "I want to work on Wall Street", get out. The main value of a business degree is the network you build. If you're not going to do anything that anyone else in that network is doing, then it's much less valuable to you. I also found that most business school students have a particular temperament. If you notice that you don't share that temperament, it's a good sign to switch. Don't let your parents determine your major--especially if they didn't follow that path successfully themselves.
You definitely won't learn anything in business school that helps you work outside of corporate America--it exists primarily to train middle managers.
Unless you have a specific reason for business, e.g., "I want to be a CPA" or "I want to work on Wall Street", get out. The main value of a business degree is the network you build. If you're not going to do anything that anyone else in that network is doing, then it's much less valuable to you. I also found that most business school students have a particular temperament. If you notice that you don't share that temperament, it's a good sign to switch. Don't let your parents determine your major--especially if they didn't follow that path successfully themselves.
You definitely won't learn anything in business school that helps you work outside of corporate America--it exists primarily to train middle managers.
I partially disagree. I studied CS and business as a double major. I work in software now. While it certainly wasn't as important as CS to my career, I'm glad I also did the business major.
The technical business skills don't come up much (outside of properly using terms like "gross profit" and managing my personal finances), but I'd say the main thing I learned in the business major was soft skills. Almost all the work we did was in groups. We had to give lots of presentations. We had to study business communication. I've found that these skills are very useful for distinguishing oneself from one's peers, and they apply to almost any profession.
The technical business skills don't come up much (outside of properly using terms like "gross profit" and managing my personal finances), but I'd say the main thing I learned in the business major was soft skills. Almost all the work we did was in groups. We had to give lots of presentations. We had to study business communication. I've found that these skills are very useful for distinguishing oneself from one's peers, and they apply to almost any profession.
I definitely feel what you are saying with the temperament.
Many of these students do not have an authentic interest in business. To me, business is an intellectual pursuit. I know that this sounds silly and ironic, but I enjoy following the financial markets, learning about monetary policy, testing a business idea by designing a prototype, etc.
What I was getting at in this post is that I have no desire to be a middle manager.
Many of these students do not have an authentic interest in business. To me, business is an intellectual pursuit. I know that this sounds silly and ironic, but I enjoy following the financial markets, learning about monetary policy, testing a business idea by designing a prototype, etc.
What I was getting at in this post is that I have no desire to be a middle manager.
That was exactly the attitude that led me into business school. I just discovered too late that most of business school isn't about any of that.
I highly encourage you to study those interests independently, whether you stick with business or not. You'll never have more time to spend in the library geeking out about whatever you like. It's what I miss most about university.
I highly encourage you to study those interests independently, whether you stick with business or not. You'll never have more time to spend in the library geeking out about whatever you like. It's what I miss most about university.
See my prior post but don't sell short the usefulness of that business degree. If there are aspects of it that you like, talk with your professors and see how you might best choose how to direct your course of study and electives.
I have friends that are university professors and they actually like it when students give a shit about some things and will help out. Those are your mentors. Then there are the other folks in your degree, some who might be like-minded. Find them and make friends. Those are your peers, and sometimes your (friendly) competition. That network will be invaluable outside of university, not only for any sort of deep friendships you establish but in terms of career networking.
I have friends that are university professors and they actually like it when students give a shit about some things and will help out. Those are your mentors. Then there are the other folks in your degree, some who might be like-minded. Find them and make friends. Those are your peers, and sometimes your (friendly) competition. That network will be invaluable outside of university, not only for any sort of deep friendships you establish but in terms of career networking.
Try to work for a staffing agency! Once you have a sufficient portfolio / reputation you can generally choose to work when you want to.
First, learn how to do 2-hour blocks of 100% focus, non-distracted. Then, start looking for remote-only or remote-friendly companies that do interesting things. Consider also a non-remote company offering flexible working hours, e.g. instead of 9-5 having 6-2 so that you have afternoons for yourself. Start a company only if you are in the top 1% in the field or have contacts you can milk, otherwise skip this route. Web development, UX, graphics design are low-paid "blue collar" jobs, so consider it as a hobby instead. Study some recent/emerging trend like Deep Learning, AR/VR, blockchain and jump on it. Emerging trends are usually forgiving to beginners, contrary to well-established fields.
I have pretty extensive knowledge of blockchain, but I have yet to see anything where I could take advantage of that fact without making one of those ICO type companies that doesn't seem to have actual demand for their product.
VR/AR are super interesting to me, but my school has very few courses on human computer interaction, which is a shame because I find that stuff super interesting.
VR/AR are super interesting to me, but my school has very few courses on human computer interaction, which is a shame because I find that stuff super interesting.
There's a lot of benefits to 9-5 I'm realising now I'm in my 30's, you're synchronized with most of society and for a lot of people (me included) the structure is very beneficial to your life.
[deleted]
Maybe you just got assimilated? I can't imagine going back to 9-5, it's a waste of day, you spend all time where there is some sunlight inside office and your free time is purely about recovering from this.
I work in a 9-5 environment and am at my desk 9-5, but I don't feel like I am "wasting days". Some of that depends on the environment you put yourself in though.
I do some personal stuff during the day at the office. I end up also doing some office stuff during the evening at home. I am responsive to emails... close to 18 hours a day, but am also not inherently always "on call"... If I get to an email in my personal time, I get to it. If not, I don't, and obviously it depends on how urgent the email is.
The key thing, IMHO, is that you need to find an employer that values you, and knows you put in the amount of work that earns your paycheck. If you're earning your keep, generally an employer should be flexible with how you do it.
I do some personal stuff during the day at the office. I end up also doing some office stuff during the evening at home. I am responsive to emails... close to 18 hours a day, but am also not inherently always "on call"... If I get to an email in my personal time, I get to it. If not, I don't, and obviously it depends on how urgent the email is.
The key thing, IMHO, is that you need to find an employer that values you, and knows you put in the amount of work that earns your paycheck. If you're earning your keep, generally an employer should be flexible with how you do it.
> close to 18 hours a day
I think that was exactly what the OP wanted to avoid.
I think that was exactly what the OP wanted to avoid.
I do not, however, work eighteen hours a day. I am reachable for eighteen hours a day. There's a significant difference.
People hoping to avoid a 9-5 block of time being locked for work, will probably end up similarly: Still needing to do about eight hours of work a day to make a living, just ideally spread out better or in a more relaxing format.
People hoping to avoid a 9-5 block of time being locked for work, will probably end up similarly: Still needing to do about eight hours of work a day to make a living, just ideally spread out better or in a more relaxing format.
It's terrible to be reachable 18h/day. It's like those poor Amazon employees that are forced to have pager all the time with them because Bezos likes it that way. What kind of life do you have when you can't even make a trip to forest without thinking about not being reachable? No hour awake without being completely off... How is your health? How long do you think you can handle it? Any hobbies where you can make your own mark? Or just survival?
I'd much rather know about something that's about to be a problem then find out about it at 9 AM when it is a problem. I would argue staying on top of my work life throughout the day prevents stressful issues. I'm proactive instead of reactive, and when someone up the chain wants to know what's going on, the chances are, I already know, and it's already partway resolved, and those are very comforting answers to be able to give people.
I have a number of hobbies! I'm writing a home automation system, it runs in my car now as well. I play a fair number of games, am a pretty regular movie theater goer, etc. Don't mistake being reachable for being in a constant state of panic, I actually used to have a job where I'd have to duck out of a movie theater if my phone went off when I was on call, and now it's really not a big deal, I can get to it when I have a few moments.
I have a number of hobbies! I'm writing a home automation system, it runs in my car now as well. I play a fair number of games, am a pretty regular movie theater goer, etc. Don't mistake being reachable for being in a constant state of panic, I actually used to have a job where I'd have to duck out of a movie theater if my phone went off when I was on call, and now it's really not a big deal, I can get to it when I have a few moments.
I would say I am reachable for 24h/day, but that doesn't mean I'll start working on a problem until the start of the next 8h working period.
I might not even take your call and just assume that if it was something truly important, you'd leave a voicemail.
Don't know if that truly counts as reachable.
I might not even take your call and just assume that if it was something truly important, you'd leave a voicemail.
Don't know if that truly counts as reachable.
I would be reachable 24 hours a day if my phone could wake me up. It can't. Which is a blessing and a curse.
>It's terrible to be reachable 18h/day.
This exactly. Sure I could go do the undergraduate business thing and live what many would consider a more than comfortable life making 80k a year, but most companies that I would do that for would own me and I would only ever be a pencil pusher. The problem with this, for me, is that I would not really have a life of my own.
This exactly. Sure I could go do the undergraduate business thing and live what many would consider a more than comfortable life making 80k a year, but most companies that I would do that for would own me and I would only ever be a pencil pusher. The problem with this, for me, is that I would not really have a life of my own.
I would argue my pets tie me down more and cause me more stress than my job. My job doesn't interfere with my ability to take trips much, but having to board my pets does.
If you’re not satisified in your career, the grass is always greener where you can work different hours.
You're both right, of course.
Exactly. Most of my coworkers are very satisfied with their low-effort/low-risk jobs. I do like the stability it offers but it's so depressing selling my precious time for cash.
This is the feeling I'm getting recently too - as I grow older time seems to be getting a lot more valuable. I'm fine now but in a decade I might try something else.
If you're in your first year of university worrying about the 9-5 grind, it's your subconscious telling you to change your field of study.
Are you assuming you need calc 3 and diffEq? Most CS programs I'm aware only need calc 1 (maybe 2) and basic linear algebra. Sure if you're into cryptography in signal processing then much more math will be needed but plenty of web devs don't need much more.
Sorry I know this doesn't answer your 9 - 5 part, but don't major in business if you have no desire to do anything related to it.
Sorry I know this doesn't answer your 9 - 5 part, but don't major in business if you have no desire to do anything related to it.
I don't think that all CS programs require this, but at my University an entry requirement to its CS program was both multi-variable calculus and advanced physics.
All that I hire from do. Multivariate calc and diff eq are important for scientific computing, which used to be a major thrust of CS.
UMich CS.
Calc 1, Calc 2, (Calc 3 or DiffEq), LinAlg, Discrete.
One also needs to take 2 physics courses (Mechanics and E&M) as well as a Chemistry class.
Calc 1, Calc 2, (Calc 3 or DiffEq), LinAlg, Discrete.
One also needs to take 2 physics courses (Mechanics and E&M) as well as a Chemistry class.
It sounds like what you want is some combination of freelance / remote working.
Join the Army Reserves.
I don't mean any offense since I was in a similar mindset as you going into college. A "9-5" is not a soul killer if you know you don't want to stay, nothing is forcing you to. You want to be a creative, do you know the cost of creativity in the "hierarchy" of value? It's very high, higher than a worker in corporate America. It's why everyone wants to be a creative and not a corporate worker to begin with, however it's higher risk/reward than I think you understand atm looking only at the "reward", the risks are about the same as what you fear in the 9-5 with the odds being even more stacked in your favor. Let me ask you another question, do you not "want" to take calc 3 more than you "don't" want to work a 9-5? Check your axioms.
In my experience, in programming it's not 9-5 you want to try to avoid - that's what you want to shoot for. It's 9-9 that you want to try to avoid.
Not just programming. There are many industries that feed on the young and unencumbered. I've seen it in visual effects, architecture, etc.
>It's 9-9 that you want to try to avoid.
All of us (mostly) have 8 hours work day in contract. Why should anyone of us work more? There is no such reason. So the problem is in you.
All of us (mostly) have 8 hours work day in contract. Why should anyone of us work more? There is no such reason. So the problem is in you.
Reminded me of this article that just came out:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/22/t-magazine/art/artist-day...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/22/t-magazine/art/artist-day...
I think others asked similar questions. What is your desire and goals?
I think as a first year, it's a little too premature to make a large decision like this. Just go and have a few internships first, then see what's out there.
If you go to work for a startup, it won't be 9 to 5. It's most likely gonna be 9 to 9.
I think as a first year, it's a little too premature to make a large decision like this. Just go and have a few internships first, then see what's out there.
If you go to work for a startup, it won't be 9 to 5. It's most likely gonna be 9 to 9.
Get really good, then freelance or build your own stuff.
I think most people put in their time in the office grind before building a network and skillset, then disengage over time.
I think most people put in their time in the office grind before building a network and skillset, then disengage over time.
“9 to 5 life” isn’t a schedule, it’s a mindset.
It’s the idea that from 9 to 5 you are like a slave and you are not living your own life, you are giving up your time to render a service for someone paying you to do it.
We can sit here and move the hands on the clock and try to make your day look more interesting in all sorts of ways, but in the end you will work those hours, all the same.
So what do you do if you don’t want that life? Find a way to get your income not from services you perform but through other means which are inherently timeless.
In the best case, what this looks like is you living your own life on your own terms while making decisions that feed income into your revenue streams whenever necessary. Before I continue, is this what you want?
It’s the idea that from 9 to 5 you are like a slave and you are not living your own life, you are giving up your time to render a service for someone paying you to do it.
We can sit here and move the hands on the clock and try to make your day look more interesting in all sorts of ways, but in the end you will work those hours, all the same.
So what do you do if you don’t want that life? Find a way to get your income not from services you perform but through other means which are inherently timeless.
In the best case, what this looks like is you living your own life on your own terms while making decisions that feed income into your revenue streams whenever necessary. Before I continue, is this what you want?
Perhaps I could start working on the side as a college counselor. I am only 19, but I toured over 35 undergraduate universities and successfully applied to a top 20 school. That experience taught me a ton about how the process works and I am certain that you can "hack" the college application process.
One personality trait that has helped me in life I am extremely curious self-starter. When I want to learn something I completely immerse myself in it. I have done this a few times in my life. I did it with DJing, graphic design/ typography, finance, and more recently colleges. I think that the best way to describe this without talking to you in person is that I am able to talk about the things I am interested in such granular detail that it would raise suspicion of autism.
The reason I ask how to avoid the 9 to 5 is that many people, especially on this forum (I assume), are pulling it off. I am wondering how I can take advantage of my intense curiosity to do pull it off myself. I have 4 years to figure it out.
One personality trait that has helped me in life I am extremely curious self-starter. When I want to learn something I completely immerse myself in it. I have done this a few times in my life. I did it with DJing, graphic design/ typography, finance, and more recently colleges. I think that the best way to describe this without talking to you in person is that I am able to talk about the things I am interested in such granular detail that it would raise suspicion of autism.
The reason I ask how to avoid the 9 to 5 is that many people, especially on this forum (I assume), are pulling it off. I am wondering how I can take advantage of my intense curiosity to do pull it off myself. I have 4 years to figure it out.
No one can answer this question for you. People can provide guidance on what NOT to do from their experience, but ultimately this boils down to 'how do you find a job you love.' There's a workbook out there called "Do what you are." It's a bit dated, but worth the $15.
I'd say learn to live with as few luxuries as possible in a place where the cost of living is low. Earn as much as you can, but in a way that is flexible (contracting for example). This will give you the opportunity to save and have a lot of free time.
Started my own startup. Now I have 9-9 life!
[deleted]
I've heard that there are plenty of non-9-5 vacancies for nurses available, and the math requirements are typically lighter too than in engineering.
Now in my late 20s, I've come to appreciate this advice:
"Be regular and orderly in your life like a bourgeois, so that you may be violent and original in your work." -Gustave Flaubert
"Be regular and orderly in your life like a bourgeois, so that you may be violent and original in your work." -Gustave Flaubert
or a "9 to 7" to life.
I think you need to ask yourself the much more difficult what your real desire is. I'm not in the same boat, but might have similar desires.
Do I want an adventurous life? Do I like nature? Do I like to socialize? Are all the people around me dead inside? Do I like to solve problems, all the time? Do I hate working with legacy systems? Do I want to have more of a direct impact with people? Do I prefer working out of cafes?
Make your own list, those are some off of mine. They might help direct your decision making. These are hard problems that can be immensely stressful. Don't waste your time or parent's money. Consider opportunity cost. Don't burn yourself out. Sometimes you need to shit you don't want to do to get somewhere.
I'd also go out and try to meat someone in the fields and who meet the criteria you're considering. Ask them in real life everything you can.
Do I want an adventurous life? Do I like nature? Do I like to socialize? Are all the people around me dead inside? Do I like to solve problems, all the time? Do I hate working with legacy systems? Do I want to have more of a direct impact with people? Do I prefer working out of cafes?
Make your own list, those are some off of mine. They might help direct your decision making. These are hard problems that can be immensely stressful. Don't waste your time or parent's money. Consider opportunity cost. Don't burn yourself out. Sometimes you need to shit you don't want to do to get somewhere.
I'd also go out and try to meat someone in the fields and who meet the criteria you're considering. Ask them in real life everything you can.
Contracting has been pretty good, it pays enough to have some decent gaps.
First, realize that you don't have to go to university now. It can happen later.
Second, what do you really want to do with your life. You say you want to be a creative, do you know what the day to day life would look like? If not, find out. You may love it; you may hate it, but find out first.
There's a lot to be said for following your passions, just realize that money typically doesn't tag along.
Second, what do you really want to do with your life. You say you want to be a creative, do you know what the day to day life would look like? If not, find out. You may love it; you may hate it, but find out first.
There's a lot to be said for following your passions, just realize that money typically doesn't tag along.
Passive and semi-passive income. Slowly buy or build assets that build up an income stream. They can be websites, saas companies, parking spots or apartments.
Spend way less than you earn, save for a down payment and buy an income producing asset.
Best way to keep your freedom and have the option to be as picky as you want when it comes to choosing work.
Spend way less than you earn, save for a down payment and buy an income producing asset.
Best way to keep your freedom and have the option to be as picky as you want when it comes to choosing work.
I was also a business major, but I had been programming my whole life. Like you, I had no intention of being a consultant or going into finance.
It didn't really affect my career one way or another because I was building my own companies and doing contract work, but if I could do it over again, I would personally major in math, physics, or comp sci, which I really enjoyed. There's definitely a bias toward comp sci majors in the tech industry, which you can get over for almost any job, but know that it's there.
Because I was self-taught and didn't have a traditional comp sci background, I found out a lot of things the "hard way" by making mistakes in my code. A lot of times there's a simple solution to a problem you face, but if you haven't studied that problem and solution in class, you probably don't know that it's been solved for 30+ years. I've had several such discoveries, most of which were pointed out to me by exceptional CS majors. :)
I'd echo the other comments here. If you don't plan on doing the same types of jobs as your classmates and using that network, business school isn't worth the trouble. Study something you love.
It didn't really affect my career one way or another because I was building my own companies and doing contract work, but if I could do it over again, I would personally major in math, physics, or comp sci, which I really enjoyed. There's definitely a bias toward comp sci majors in the tech industry, which you can get over for almost any job, but know that it's there.
Because I was self-taught and didn't have a traditional comp sci background, I found out a lot of things the "hard way" by making mistakes in my code. A lot of times there's a simple solution to a problem you face, but if you haven't studied that problem and solution in class, you probably don't know that it's been solved for 30+ years. I've had several such discoveries, most of which were pointed out to me by exceptional CS majors. :)
I'd echo the other comments here. If you don't plan on doing the same types of jobs as your classmates and using that network, business school isn't worth the trouble. Study something you love.
Food for thought:
Many of his future history novels have medical or scientific underpinnings, reflecting his medical training and scientific background.
Which he got in part because his family insisted he would never make it as a writer and encouraged him to go to medical school, which he completed but he never became a licensed physician.
The Wikipedia article quoted above doesn't say that. I read or heard it elsewhere. The man in question is Michael Crichton.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton
Many of his future history novels have medical or scientific underpinnings, reflecting his medical training and scientific background.
Which he got in part because his family insisted he would never make it as a writer and encouraged him to go to medical school, which he completed but he never became a licensed physician.
The Wikipedia article quoted above doesn't say that. I read or heard it elsewhere. The man in question is Michael Crichton.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton
I'm in second year and looking for something similar. I'm taking a math degree-- which, as a note, is not something I was "good at" in high school. Math is one of those things you have to change your brain around for but that in itself is not as hard as it seems (you do it every day), and it's also very worth it! Math is creative, inherently, and it will help you solve problems in general, as well as give you a good grasp of symbology (by that I mean you will be better-suited to recognizing when things are representative of other things-- very useful in any kind of analysis which you will surely need to navigate the world).
And on that same note, please try to overcome your deepest academic fears now while you're still young. It sounds like you highly value freedom, and overcoming fears will give you that freedom. I did not want to be a math major in high school, but here I am. I realized it was holding me back from what I was really good at-- which is creative analysis. Because I have a deeper understanding of mathematics, an entire scientific world has opened up to me. I now have access to in-depth research using statistical models, I can now read a physics textbook without skipping math-heavy parts. I am more free than I was without it.
If you don't think you can take an engineering or computer science degree because you're bad at math, yet you're interested in web development and graphic design, you are closing yourself off. Go for it. You will have a hard time but you will learn and grow-- can't do either without tough times.
As far as staying out of the corporate world, you may find that your opinions change. It depends on your work environment. BUT my plan is to become a tutor for some time (pays $25-40 an hour with a professional tutoring company) which will take up ~15-30 hours a week for me. You can look into that. If you like software stuff, there is demand growing for mentorship for kids in programming. While tutoring I will be working on increasing my development portfolio, and am currently toying with perhaps becoming an ethical hacker-- tutoring will give me lots of time to practice, some income to supplement, and especially time to figure it all out.
Let your career develop naturally. The difference between you and Joe-blow is initiative. Do stuff that excites you at home. Set aside a couple hours a day to just.. look into everything. Try and learn principles of graphic design on your own time, start your own projects. Read a lot. Do whatever gets your blood-pumping and makes you feel fulfilled. Don't pressure yourself, just take it slow and explore your own passions. Then, when the door of opportunity opens, walk through. You will create that door as long as you take initiative, and the opportunity will NEVER be perfect but it will be a step along your path.
And on that same note, please try to overcome your deepest academic fears now while you're still young. It sounds like you highly value freedom, and overcoming fears will give you that freedom. I did not want to be a math major in high school, but here I am. I realized it was holding me back from what I was really good at-- which is creative analysis. Because I have a deeper understanding of mathematics, an entire scientific world has opened up to me. I now have access to in-depth research using statistical models, I can now read a physics textbook without skipping math-heavy parts. I am more free than I was without it.
If you don't think you can take an engineering or computer science degree because you're bad at math, yet you're interested in web development and graphic design, you are closing yourself off. Go for it. You will have a hard time but you will learn and grow-- can't do either without tough times.
As far as staying out of the corporate world, you may find that your opinions change. It depends on your work environment. BUT my plan is to become a tutor for some time (pays $25-40 an hour with a professional tutoring company) which will take up ~15-30 hours a week for me. You can look into that. If you like software stuff, there is demand growing for mentorship for kids in programming. While tutoring I will be working on increasing my development portfolio, and am currently toying with perhaps becoming an ethical hacker-- tutoring will give me lots of time to practice, some income to supplement, and especially time to figure it all out.
Let your career develop naturally. The difference between you and Joe-blow is initiative. Do stuff that excites you at home. Set aside a couple hours a day to just.. look into everything. Try and learn principles of graphic design on your own time, start your own projects. Read a lot. Do whatever gets your blood-pumping and makes you feel fulfilled. Don't pressure yourself, just take it slow and explore your own passions. Then, when the door of opportunity opens, walk through. You will create that door as long as you take initiative, and the opportunity will NEVER be perfect but it will be a step along your path.
Unfortunately I go to a school that would absolutely punish people like me for taking classes that are a real stretch. It would either throw my gpa out the window or take a lot of my time away from side projects and things that I really enjoy, which I already have not much time for.
Welp, you'll figure it out. Maybe university isn't for you-- and that's okay, as you long as you have the drive and (more importantly) the ability to create your own structure you'll be okay without school.
Marketing is a great field where you can be both business oriented, but scratch your creative itch. There's lots of flexibility, and pay is pretty good.
I didn't get a lot out of my business degree, but the internships I was able to get as a student were 100% critical to getting a good job out of college. If you aren't jumping on those, you are missing out on some of the best opportunities of your life.
Also, the most miserable places I worked were startups. There was never any security, and dealing with owners/founders was incredibly stressful. In comparison, corporate America has been very enjoyable. Having a good boss, shooting the breeze with your co-workers, grabbing a beer after work, paid corporate travel, having nice equipment, working on things you are passionate about - it's very underrated.
I didn't get a lot out of my business degree, but the internships I was able to get as a student were 100% critical to getting a good job out of college. If you aren't jumping on those, you are missing out on some of the best opportunities of your life.
Also, the most miserable places I worked were startups. There was never any security, and dealing with owners/founders was incredibly stressful. In comparison, corporate America has been very enjoyable. Having a good boss, shooting the breeze with your co-workers, grabbing a beer after work, paid corporate travel, having nice equipment, working on things you are passionate about - it's very underrated.
A few points:
An MBA is a tool. It doesn't predetermine anything in life. Use it to your advantage.
There's no such thing as "not being good enough at math". I suck at math and I finished a BA in CompSci where at least 50% of the subjects were math. It's a matter of putting in enough butt-chair hours and learning to study, but it's perfectly doable by anyone with normal intelligence.
Just start working in whatever seems reasonably appealing. If you don't have any job experience, truth is you have no criteria to actually say that you'd rather work in one thing or another. Just use the experience to expose yourself to different things and dedicate yourself to what feels good, with an eye towards the future.
An MBA is a tool. It doesn't predetermine anything in life. Use it to your advantage.
There's no such thing as "not being good enough at math". I suck at math and I finished a BA in CompSci where at least 50% of the subjects were math. It's a matter of putting in enough butt-chair hours and learning to study, but it's perfectly doable by anyone with normal intelligence.
Just start working in whatever seems reasonably appealing. If you don't have any job experience, truth is you have no criteria to actually say that you'd rather work in one thing or another. Just use the experience to expose yourself to different things and dedicate yourself to what feels good, with an eye towards the future.
I've been working in Software for about three years.
Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and not that of my employer.
I am an "exempt employee" under the Fair Labor Standards Act. This means that the amount of money I get paid is not related to the number of hours I work in a week. There is an expectation of "butts in chairs", but it doesn't matter whether I get to my seat at 8am or 11am on a given day. But in exchange for not having to use punch cards or timesheets or hourly invoices, I also don't get overtime pay if mismanagement results in me working on a weekend.
I hated taking Calculus 3 and Differential Equations. The secret to succeeding in these courses is to study a physical example or application to help you visualize what the math means and how it is used. The reason these courses are required is because the math is a prerequisite for Feedback Control (aka P/PI/PD/PID-control), which is used in industrial control (self-driving cars, robots, chemical plants, maglev sytems, and the like). Some memorization is also required to pass the exams. This is not ideal, but you shouldn't have any trouble so long as you do most of the assignments.
If you plan to just work on websites, it's unlikely that you will need Calc 3 or DE or Feedback Control in the first few years after you graduate. Even the professors I had didn't expect people to graduate and actually remember any of it -- the point was, for the 5% of people that did actually end up working on robots or cars or anything that was safety-critical, that they would be able to find the textbooks again later to look up the formulas and algorithms.
So, yes, Calc 3 and Differential Equations are a drag, but please don't let them dissuade you from going into CS.
Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and not that of my employer.
I am an "exempt employee" under the Fair Labor Standards Act. This means that the amount of money I get paid is not related to the number of hours I work in a week. There is an expectation of "butts in chairs", but it doesn't matter whether I get to my seat at 8am or 11am on a given day. But in exchange for not having to use punch cards or timesheets or hourly invoices, I also don't get overtime pay if mismanagement results in me working on a weekend.
I hated taking Calculus 3 and Differential Equations. The secret to succeeding in these courses is to study a physical example or application to help you visualize what the math means and how it is used. The reason these courses are required is because the math is a prerequisite for Feedback Control (aka P/PI/PD/PID-control), which is used in industrial control (self-driving cars, robots, chemical plants, maglev sytems, and the like). Some memorization is also required to pass the exams. This is not ideal, but you shouldn't have any trouble so long as you do most of the assignments.
If you plan to just work on websites, it's unlikely that you will need Calc 3 or DE or Feedback Control in the first few years after you graduate. Even the professors I had didn't expect people to graduate and actually remember any of it -- the point was, for the 5% of people that did actually end up working on robots or cars or anything that was safety-critical, that they would be able to find the textbooks again later to look up the formulas and algorithms.
So, yes, Calc 3 and Differential Equations are a drag, but please don't let them dissuade you from going into CS.
I don't.
9-to-5 is fine. Not great, just fine. There's a lot of money sloshing around in corporate America, and it's pretty easy to tap that pipeline. A lot of people do pretty well by having a "day job" to pay the bills, and then working as a creative in their remaining time.
While I am loath to crap on your dreams, because I was a kid once, and have some of my own now, but avoiding the truth won't help you. There is nothing special about you. Statistically speaking, there is nothing special about anybody. Artists get paid peanuts in our society, because they are a dime a dozen, and a lot of them produce mediocre crap. None of them make it big, until someone else with business skills finds a talented one and works out a way to leech off their skills. Rarely, the genius also has the business skills, and promotes their own work.
If you don't have skills in math, or even like it, you will not be able to handle back-end programming or have a deep understanding of 3-D rendering. If you want to be a creative, you must also develop a "money skill" for your day job. In that vein, programming is a decent day job, but be aware that your progress in it will be limited by lack of interest in math.
It sounds like you have already figured out that you don't want the thing that you do to define your self image. That's fine. But everyone has to pull at least some of their own weight on this planet, one way or another. You won't get what you want unless you help other people get what they want. If you happen to know of a thing that people want and know how to provide it better than anyone else, that's great: gather some investment capital, start a business, and be your own boss. If you don't have a clear idea on how you're going to make enough money to pay your planet Earth rent, you'll have to do what everyone else does, and take a job until you figure it out.
You might never get there. That's okay; a lot of people never do. There are roughly seven billion of us that have no idea how to break free from the crowd and be individually awesome.
To put this in perspective, I wrote a novel. It took a few years to finish. I think it's pretty good, but that's because I write what I like. It has earned me about $25 in revenue so far, and probably won't ever bring in another dime. My day job has brought in more than a million dollars over the years--most of which was spent the week after the checks cleared--and it most likely will still be there tomorrow.
Stay in business school. If you like engineering, and can't math hard enough to do it yourself, learn how to manage engineers. Be creative from 5:01 PM to 8:59 AM.
9-to-5 is fine. Not great, just fine. There's a lot of money sloshing around in corporate America, and it's pretty easy to tap that pipeline. A lot of people do pretty well by having a "day job" to pay the bills, and then working as a creative in their remaining time.
While I am loath to crap on your dreams, because I was a kid once, and have some of my own now, but avoiding the truth won't help you. There is nothing special about you. Statistically speaking, there is nothing special about anybody. Artists get paid peanuts in our society, because they are a dime a dozen, and a lot of them produce mediocre crap. None of them make it big, until someone else with business skills finds a talented one and works out a way to leech off their skills. Rarely, the genius also has the business skills, and promotes their own work.
If you don't have skills in math, or even like it, you will not be able to handle back-end programming or have a deep understanding of 3-D rendering. If you want to be a creative, you must also develop a "money skill" for your day job. In that vein, programming is a decent day job, but be aware that your progress in it will be limited by lack of interest in math.
It sounds like you have already figured out that you don't want the thing that you do to define your self image. That's fine. But everyone has to pull at least some of their own weight on this planet, one way or another. You won't get what you want unless you help other people get what they want. If you happen to know of a thing that people want and know how to provide it better than anyone else, that's great: gather some investment capital, start a business, and be your own boss. If you don't have a clear idea on how you're going to make enough money to pay your planet Earth rent, you'll have to do what everyone else does, and take a job until you figure it out.
You might never get there. That's okay; a lot of people never do. There are roughly seven billion of us that have no idea how to break free from the crowd and be individually awesome.
To put this in perspective, I wrote a novel. It took a few years to finish. I think it's pretty good, but that's because I write what I like. It has earned me about $25 in revenue so far, and probably won't ever bring in another dime. My day job has brought in more than a million dollars over the years--most of which was spent the week after the checks cleared--and it most likely will still be there tomorrow.
Stay in business school. If you like engineering, and can't math hard enough to do it yourself, learn how to manage engineers. Be creative from 5:01 PM to 8:59 AM.
I avoided the 9 to 5 by quitting my stable job and starting my own business. Now I have a 8-2AM.
At least take Calc 1. Even if you fail it, Calc is a very good lens with which to view the world. It is VERY much worth the effort.
Other than that, there is a high likelyhood that whatever your major is at graduation, it may not exist today. Get the hard and difficult classes out of the way so you can get set up for easier classes that are more your speed near graduation.
Also, don't just graduate with a degree and a taste for cheap beer and jazz. Do something big. Write a rock-opera, do a thesis in planetary dynamics, go climb a mountain and write about it, take her/him on the date of their life, volunteer somewhere kinda dangerous and do some stats on the place, etc. Whatever you do though, write it down, have it edited and torn apart, that way you have something to show for yourself.
Other than that, there is a high likelyhood that whatever your major is at graduation, it may not exist today. Get the hard and difficult classes out of the way so you can get set up for easier classes that are more your speed near graduation.
Also, don't just graduate with a degree and a taste for cheap beer and jazz. Do something big. Write a rock-opera, do a thesis in planetary dynamics, go climb a mountain and write about it, take her/him on the date of their life, volunteer somewhere kinda dangerous and do some stats on the place, etc. Whatever you do though, write it down, have it edited and torn apart, that way you have something to show for yourself.
I did and I am in calc 2 right now. Thanks for the advice. If you have done any of those things yourself then you have lived a life far greater than the average human being.
Only a few ;)
Good to hear you are motivated and asking questions! That sure beats the pants off of most folks. You'll be fine, just keep putting in the effort.
The internet can get you down a lot, and it is tough to ignore. It's not just you, we all feel it. That said, try to read more and comment less, if you get my drift. Find good sites, only read them, ignore FB and CNN, and mostly just read real books.
As for your education, don't let school get in the way of college.
Go to the parties, tell yourself that it's 'networking' but go because it's fun.
If you stay in just one Friday night per month to study, you'll be ahead of everyone else, but I don't know what that gets you in the long run. Still, you'll get better grades.
Pull your bed away from the wall so you can hide the beer bottles back there and use a towel at the bottom of the door to smoke inside (hot air is less dense and will flow into the room from the top, cold out of the room from the bottom) but just go outside in general.
Don't have a GF/BF in college. It's not a hard rule, but enjoy the freedom and the chance to just study. Don't try to get married before you are going to have the time to spend with them as a person, not as a just student. You change after all the HW and stress dies off.
Good to hear you are motivated and asking questions! That sure beats the pants off of most folks. You'll be fine, just keep putting in the effort.
The internet can get you down a lot, and it is tough to ignore. It's not just you, we all feel it. That said, try to read more and comment less, if you get my drift. Find good sites, only read them, ignore FB and CNN, and mostly just read real books.
As for your education, don't let school get in the way of college.
Go to the parties, tell yourself that it's 'networking' but go because it's fun.
If you stay in just one Friday night per month to study, you'll be ahead of everyone else, but I don't know what that gets you in the long run. Still, you'll get better grades.
Pull your bed away from the wall so you can hide the beer bottles back there and use a towel at the bottom of the door to smoke inside (hot air is less dense and will flow into the room from the top, cold out of the room from the bottom) but just go outside in general.
Don't have a GF/BF in college. It's not a hard rule, but enjoy the freedom and the chance to just study. Don't try to get married before you are going to have the time to spend with them as a person, not as a just student. You change after all the HW and stress dies off.
You're 18 (I'm assuming based on first year at uni) and have no idea what you really want. Experiment a lot and see what works. Have you ever actually worked for someone for money? Work hard at your studies, take a part-time gig if you can, or start your own, have fun, and try on a lot of different hats in your 20s. Take note during that time of what you like and dislike about certain jobs. Aim yourself toward the things you like.
My take? Skip business school. You can learn nearly everything a biz track would give you by reading "The Personal MBA" by Josh Kaufman.
I admit it. I'm an outlier here. Unless you're going to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, college isn't worth the time or money.
You can get the business acumen without the hefty college tuition bill. I'm a business grad. If I had it to do over, I'd have skipped college and went all-in on learning to code. (I code now, I'm self-employed, and I'm making the best money I've ever made.)
If you want to be a creative, steer your educational pursuits where can get you what you need much cheaper.
It pains me to see people go to school, graduate with a huge bill, and then get a crappy job.
I admit it. I'm an outlier here. Unless you're going to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, college isn't worth the time or money.
You can get the business acumen without the hefty college tuition bill. I'm a business grad. If I had it to do over, I'd have skipped college and went all-in on learning to code. (I code now, I'm self-employed, and I'm making the best money I've ever made.)
If you want to be a creative, steer your educational pursuits where can get you what you need much cheaper.
It pains me to see people go to school, graduate with a huge bill, and then get a crappy job.
I've been asking myself this very same question for some time now. One thing to consider is the idea of income that scales well, though this is not easy. Examples of income that scale well might be a successful app, a hit song, etc, contrary to the linear scaling of hourly wages. Essentially, I think it's a good idea to consider developing avenues of income in which the ratio of profit earned to work performed has potential to increase exponentially. Of course this isn't a secure mode of income, so perhaps it is best in tandem with secure income pursuits and sources.
Start-ups suck. I guess they're ok if you're really motivated, and I spent some time doing that, but I much prefer easy corporate 9-5.
Sure I'm not changing the world, but I get paid a fat paycheck and get plenty of time off to use it.
Startups expect you to buy into whatever promise they're selling, while corporate knows you're there for the paycheck and that you'll leave if they piss you off, so they generally treat you much better.
I've hired so many people burned out from startups and looking to take it easier. It can be good experience, but it's easy to get burned out after even a couple of years.
Sure I'm not changing the world, but I get paid a fat paycheck and get plenty of time off to use it.
Startups expect you to buy into whatever promise they're selling, while corporate knows you're there for the paycheck and that you'll leave if they piss you off, so they generally treat you much better.
I've hired so many people burned out from startups and looking to take it easier. It can be good experience, but it's easy to get burned out after even a couple of years.
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Don't want 9-5? Simple! Just join IT, where you will work from 07:00 until 22:00 on any given day :)
My dream has always been to work as a creative. Although I am currently in the business school (parent wanted me to), I have a huge passion for user research, graphic design, and more recently web development.
Thinking about switching out of business school as I have no interest in becoming a consultant or investment banker. In all honestly I do not think I am good enough at math to switch to the engineering school and do computer science. I am taking computer science classes which I really enjoy, but I don't really want to take calculus 3 or differential equations.
Curious to hear the opinions of this community.