US breaks up IRS phone scam operation(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
US breaks up IRS phone scam operation
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/business/irs-phone-scams-jeff-sessions.html
187 comments
I think the problem has gotten so serious that the traditional voice-based phone system is pretty much unusable. I don't even bother to answer the phone. Instead I have a voice mail message that tells people to send a text message instead. I can't be the only one who does something like this or has some other system in place to not have to deal with robocalls/scam callers.
Not sure what carrier you're using but T-Mobile in the US just released "scam block" ( I had "scam ID" turned on previously).
In addition to marking calls as scam, now they simply block them outright. Getting approximately 0 scam calls in the past 2 days.
In addition to marking calls as scam, now they simply block them outright. Getting approximately 0 scam calls in the past 2 days.
Job seekers and those with medically needy relatives are among those who cannot tolerate any false positive especially if calls are entirely rejected and cannot even leave a voicemail.
TMobile has 2 levels of it. One just labels the Caller ID for those suspected numbers as "Scam Likely". An additional feature (which OP is referring to) blocks the calls automatically.
I hope it works... it's kinda terrifying that getting no scam calls for 2 days is significant!
I have a test/dev phone that I used for a project several years ago with an associated ph#. I forgot about it (don't think about the charges accrued 8^) for several years, but just charged it and turned it on.
It's a number that was never used or answered for 3 years and it gets several scam calls a day. They must be calling every valid number.
I have a test/dev phone that I used for a project several years ago with an associated ph#. I forgot about it (don't think about the charges accrued 8^) for several years, but just charged it and turned it on.
It's a number that was never used or answered for 3 years and it gets several scam calls a day. They must be calling every valid number.
I didn't realize they had added the block feature too, nice! Just went and enabled that
Does this work for the sweepstakes type scams where they try to induce the elderly send money for a fabulous prize they supposedly won? Just curious in general how they ID a scam?
The simplest and most powerful definition of "spam" is "whatever our users report as spam."
People don't mark calls as spam so I wonder how they do the training?
I believe Google recently released something similar for Android.
These calls are spam for phones. Certainly, there's an obvious pattern that can be identified and then neutralized.
These calls are spam for phones. Certainly, there's an obvious pattern that can be identified and then neutralized.
Email spam became tractable on the end user side with domain and IP address risk scoring. Caller IDs are so easily spoofable it's like open relay email servers of the past.
When they spoof are they using otherwise valid numbers? That is, if you returned the call you'd speak to someone's grandmother?
None the less, can't the phone providers detect the excessive outgoing traffic? And if it's a residential number can't that raise a red flag?
None the less, can't the phone providers detect the excessive outgoing traffic? And if it's a residential number can't that raise a red flag?
Do you have a link for that? I have an Android phone, but I received a call marked as spam yesterday. I'd love to be able to just block those.
I never get any robocalls. I do get robots when I initiate the call though (which is very annoying). Then again, we got privacy and telemarketing laws here.
No voicemail and no picking up for random numbers. Works well for me
The world could have such a wider set of solutions to many problems on the internet if there were just a good system of micropayments. Any idea why the US government or some other government does not create such a system? If people not in my contact list were immediately sent to voicemail and charged 10 cents to leave me a message, spam would basically go away. Similar for email spam. One can dream.
> Any idea why the US government or some other government does not create such a system?
The US government isn't in the business of running the internet or phone or micropayment systems, and it's not interested.
The US government isn't in the business of running the internet or phone or micropayment systems, and it's not interested.
Its into supplying its citizens with a useful currency. Micropayments of dollars is just usefully currency online. Seems like microdollars would be a natural monopoly, ideal for the US government to produce.
Yeah I do the same. I only pick up phones if it’s from a contact I know. 99% it’s my wife. Most of my friends use some form of text messages.
Most people leave a voicemail. Thanks to technology, the voice mails get transcribed and I can quickly decide whether I should return the call.
I also see “Spam Likely” for a whole range of numbers. Not sure if it’s Apple or T-mobile but I sure do appreaciate the heads up.
Most people leave a voicemail. Thanks to technology, the voice mails get transcribed and I can quickly decide whether I should return the call.
I also see “Spam Likely” for a whole range of numbers. Not sure if it’s Apple or T-mobile but I sure do appreaciate the heads up.
I have do not disturb turned on always, but my contacts are exempt, so for people I know it will ring. If I get a call from a non contact they can leave a voicemail. But most of the time it's a robocall. Not having to deal with my phone ringing all the time has been a big improvement.
"Scam Likely" is a T-Mobile thing. I get it also. It can be toggled from the Tmobile website.
My wife gets a call every day about how she is being sued..... every day a new nasty VM.
I'm talking to random scammers more now because I'm looking for a job and I feel like I have to answer the phone even if I don't recognize the number. Man it is annoying.
I'm talking to random scammers more now because I'm looking for a job and I feel like I have to answer the phone even if I don't recognize the number. Man it is annoying.
The workaround I used for this was Google Voice. I put the Google Voice number on my resume and in settings told it to use my own GV number as the caller id. If I saw a call coming from the GV number I knew it was a response to my resume. For some reason my GV number doesn’t attract scammers.
I have a GV number as my work number on my cards, site, etc. and I still get spam through it, though admittedly less than through my personal number.
That is a great tip, thanks!
How about the FCC get serious about the problem and force the telcos to stop it. Obviously, as you say, they have no interest in doing it themselves.
Pretty much this. With the current tech stack in telcos, the only way anything can change is if they're put in a "you're responsible for this call, unless you can point to who sent this call" situation. While the receiving / forwarding party can't validate the originating number, they can always point at the telco that sent the call in. Repeat until you find a company / person to fine.
Just like airlines get fined for carrying passengers who violate immigration policy. Thus they are effectively deputized to enforce the rules.
That would root out domestic telcos who enable bad behavior. What happens when the origin telco is in another jurisdiction?
That would root out domestic telcos who enable bad behavior. What happens when the origin telco is in another jurisdiction?
Then it has an international caller id. Most people get so few international calls that they will quickly figure out that it can't be real. If it had a locale caller id it is obviously spoofed because otherwise the call wouldn't have come in from the foreign telco.
Once someone does this, legitimate telephone companies elsewhere will become interested as well, and may "play nice" so long as local laws allow it.
Once someone does this, legitimate telephone companies elsewhere will become interested as well, and may "play nice" so long as local laws allow it.
> If it had a locale caller id it is obviously spoofed because otherwise the call wouldn't have come in from the foreign telco.
That is not correct. You can send legitimate calls with spoofed caller id between different countries. Many providers will let you do that. (as in, you can assign a caller id from country A to a call originating from country B to A)
That is not correct. You can send legitimate calls with spoofed caller id between different countries. Many providers will let you do that. (as in, you can assign a caller id from country A to a call originating from country B to A)
I'm saying that those become automatically illegitimate and Country A should reject them. The only exception is IF the telco in country B agrees to assume legal responsibility in country A.
Problems are international calls are already in a technically deficient state. e.g. caller IDs are not sent properly and a generic dummy is sent. Telco 1 uses Telco 2 to connect to Telco 3 which finally terminates on Telco 4's network and rings the phone.
There are literally treaties that govern phone traffic that would have to be updated. Most telcos are a monopoly or oligopoly and don't care about customer dissatisfaction. It's not like there's a substitute to the PSTN ready to go. Are you going to tell all of your contacts you are only reachable through Skype/Hangouts/Facetime? Cutting off a spammy foreign telco would also hurt revenue.
Frankly, the definition of telecom fraud should include corporations ripping off their customers not just petty criminals getting free calls.
There are literally treaties that govern phone traffic that would have to be updated. Most telcos are a monopoly or oligopoly and don't care about customer dissatisfaction. It's not like there's a substitute to the PSTN ready to go. Are you going to tell all of your contacts you are only reachable through Skype/Hangouts/Facetime? Cutting off a spammy foreign telco would also hurt revenue.
Frankly, the definition of telecom fraud should include corporations ripping off their customers not just petty criminals getting free calls.
You can't just remove this - it's a legitimate use case.
For example if you go to another country with your mobile phone, your call will be international, but the caller id would not match the source.
For example if you go to another country with your mobile phone, your call will be international, but the caller id would not match the source.
But there are plenty of ways for my phone company to verify that it was my phone. (they might verify a clone of my sim, but that is a different problem that they already have to handle)
It costs a lot more internationally, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it really is. While many people would hate this, the same rule could be applied with "if you're forwarding international connections, you're responsible". Bad interconnects would probably drop immediately with a moderate amount of chaos, while legit foreign partners are found who can filter traffic on their end.
My service provider offers <$0.01/min. calls to many countries.
I have a hunch that no telco wants to entirely block a foreign telco because they would lose money and because of the ensuing chaos.
Robocall friendly service providers intentionally mix robocalls with legitimate traffic to avoid terms of service enforcement. e.g. Robocalls are laundered by splitting across n carriers so spam (identified by bad ASR/ACD stats) stays below each carrier's threshold. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12339739
I have a hunch that no telco wants to entirely block a foreign telco because they would lose money and because of the ensuing chaos.
Robocall friendly service providers intentionally mix robocalls with legitimate traffic to avoid terms of service enforcement. e.g. Robocalls are laundered by splitting across n carriers so spam (identified by bad ASR/ACD stats) stays below each carrier's threshold. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12339739
Since you have expertise, maybe you can explain why this seems to happen in the US only, while SS7 (which many commenters mention as the culprit) is used all over the world.
I live in Europe, but do not receive robocalls at all (zero), while when I enter the US, and put in my US SIM, I immediately start getting multiple per day.
I live in Europe, but do not receive robocalls at all (zero), while when I enter the US, and put in my US SIM, I immediately start getting multiple per day.
Maybe there's no market in Europe. Only the UK speaks English, and in the UK it seems not many have to do tax returns (from http://taxaid.org.uk/guides/taxpayers/tax-returns/im-not-sur...):
> Most taxpayers in the UK are taxed at source and so do not need to complete a Self Assessment Tax Return. ‘Taxed at source’ means that the money you receive has already had tax taken off, such as the wages you get from your employer when paid under the Pay As You Earn (PAYE) system, or UK bank interest taxed at source.
> Most taxpayers in the UK are taxed at source and so do not need to complete a Self Assessment Tax Return. ‘Taxed at source’ means that the money you receive has already had tax taken off, such as the wages you get from your employer when paid under the Pay As You Earn (PAYE) system, or UK bank interest taxed at source.
They definitely do happen in the UK.
Later versions of Android really help with the 'spam call' filtering, though I've noticed that callers tend to just recycle through nonsense caller IDs and/or unknown numbers (which is really annoying if you have clients phoning you from unknown numbers).
At one point I was getting 10+ a day, which seems to have calmed down now. Everything from tax scams, to PPI, to car accidents.
Later versions of Android really help with the 'spam call' filtering, though I've noticed that callers tend to just recycle through nonsense caller IDs and/or unknown numbers (which is really annoying if you have clients phoning you from unknown numbers).
At one point I was getting 10+ a day, which seems to have calmed down now. Everything from tax scams, to PPI, to car accidents.
How do you filter spam calls in Android? I keep getting calls where my screen turns red and it warns that the call is spam. I'd love to stop having my phone ring and stop getting all the voicemails.
Phone app -> top right three vertical dots -> settings -> filter spam calls
Thanks! That has really been bugging me for a long time.
Just to make it clear: Not only do I get IRS robocalls in the US but all kind of scams.
Also: 96% of the Dutch speak English, and the Scandinavian countries aren't far behind.
Also: 96% of the Dutch speak English, and the Scandinavian countries aren't far behind.
As I understand it, in Europe to register for a phone number you have to give some identifying info to the telecom so they know who the number is registered with. In the US, however, you can get phone numbers anonymously.
I'm from the telecom industry myself, and it's real easy to spoof callerid here as well.
Also anonymous burner phones do exist here as well.
So I don't think this is the reason.
So I don't think this is the reason.
I’m sure you’ll find more “get rich quickly even if it’s dirty” kinda people here. We literally worship our millionaires and billionaires.
I’m probably going to get downvotes but this is what I’ve experienced in the US, at-least in the hyper growth Silicon Valley.
I’m probably going to get downvotes but this is what I’ve experienced in the US, at-least in the hyper growth Silicon Valley.
Get rich quick and clawing over others to get to the top is also relatively prevalent in poorer countries, those with great wealth/income inequality, and societies undergoing rapid economic transformation.
It's part legal enforcement and part culture. There are dishonest individuals in every country.
It's part legal enforcement and part culture. There are dishonest individuals in every country.
There are countries in EU where that is not the case. I do not think this is an EU policy.
Afaik they are mostly illegal, at least where I live.
They are illegal in the US and often originate abroad, anyway, so legality under the law of the target country (or the source country, as most are illegal where they originate, too) doesn't seem to be a controlling factor.
Fraud and wire fraud are illegal in most countries. The limiting factor is effectiveness of enforcement and probability of being caught.
You mean that they do not happen in the EU as they are illegal there? They are illegal in the US as well.
Although no law will prevents all scams, some European governments do have much stricter laws on when you can "cold call" period. In Germany, for instance, thanks to legislation passed a decade ago, I believe the customer needs to grant explicit permission in order for a business to be able to cold call, and no telemarketer can impersonate your phone number -- https://www.thelocal.de/20090804/21021.
It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation with these sorts of laws, and the prevalence of phone scams.
It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation with these sorts of laws, and the prevalence of phone scams.
The EU regulators still have teeth.
What's keeping major carriers from getting serious about these steps already?
My experience was that the major carriers had little economic incentive to invest in improving telephone service, which they viewed as a legacy line of business. They were focused on selling data plans, building their networks, and entering new markets (especially online services and advertising).
Spam calls are actually a cash cow. Uses your minutes and Verizon also makes money selling a subscription spam blocking service that would be worthless without the annoying calls:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/30/15906800/verizon-anti-spa...
https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/30/15906800/verizon-anti-spa...
What percentage of US cell plans aren't unlimited minutes these days? I'm thinking it has to be a tiny amount.
Seems like they would like to unclog their Network not to mention their servers have to handle and store all the voicemails.
Seems like they would like to unclog their Network not to mention their servers have to handle and store all the voicemails.
The receiving provider usually gets paid to terminate the call.
It may only be a fraction of a cent per minute, but these are the same telecoms that will gladly send you a bill every month because you owe them 1 cent.
It may only be a fraction of a cent per minute, but these are the same telecoms that will gladly send you a bill every month because you owe them 1 cent.
In the past, cellular network operators earned revenue based off minutes sold. That's why voicemail has very verbose instructions that are read to you every single time. It's a way of inflating average call duration and thus revenue.
These days with unmetered calling, the receiving telco still makes some money off incoming calls through termination charges.
These days with unmetered calling, the receiving telco still makes some money off incoming calls through termination charges.
If they truly aren't interested in it, that'd be great, they could just stop, open up to become dumb data pipes and create a market of competitive third-party service for the telephony part.
Are the telcos trying to kill the system outright then?
They indirectly make money from the fraud, so incentives are not aligned for them to stop it.
And there are insufficient dis-incentives. There are no competitors who offer a superior spam filtering solution and market it.
If carriers became financially liable for robocalls by a government mandated date, e.g. 2020, they would find a solution. Even if was as simple as not getting paid to carry spam traffic (as opposed to an EU level % of global revenue fine).
If carriers became financially liable for robocalls by a government mandated date, e.g. 2020, they would find a solution. Even if was as simple as not getting paid to carry spam traffic (as opposed to an EU level % of global revenue fine).
Another trivial solution would be to offer some sort of voice CAPTCHA for phones - get asked question and provide answer in order to connect. Someone on here posted awhile back that they implemented their own and said it completely eliminated robocalls.
I have done this. I have my own VoIP system. One of my DIDs picks up and is a recording of me saying "I'm screening my calls for telemarketers and scams. enter code 5300 any time to be connected to $myname". If 5300 is entered, it dials out to the DID for my cellphone and transfers the call. No code, or no action, call goes nowhere.
You can fairly easily make the code whatever you want or make it a multi step process.
You can fairly easily make the code whatever you want or make it a multi step process.
If I remember correctly from the conversation I mentioned above: this is only implementable yourself with a VOIP solution and not an actual phone line?
As long as you have a programmable PBX with POTS support (e.g. Asterisk with a telephony expansion card [1]), you can do this with landlines too.
[1] https://www.asterisk.org/products/telephony-interface-cards
[1] https://www.asterisk.org/products/telephony-interface-cards
I really recommend against introducing analog anything into a modern VoIP system in 2018. Better to port your landline's DID to a VoIP service and route it from there. If you need a physical landline looking phone, good quality sip desk phones are $50 (assuming you don't care about huge color screens).
Definitely. End-to-end digital is best for fidelity and reliability. Running your own PBX is another point of failure for a service most people expect very high uptime out of, and opens you up to toll fraud. It's only worth it if you have a lot of phone or want call recording or transferring.
Did you find a way to do this that didn't require paying per-minute to (e.g.) Twilio for the call forwarding back to your cell phone?
I do pay per minute in 6 second increments but the price is so small to be barely noticeable.
Really? You end up having to pay per minute for the entire duration of every forwarded (non-spam) inbound phone call...
Yes, costs average less than $6 a month. Wholesale SIP termination and origination is remarkably cheap if you are dealing with the US48 states and Canada.
I believe I'm at something like 6/10ths of 1 cent per minute.
I believe I'm at something like 6/10ths of 1 cent per minute.
Yes, that's about right. It's just a matter of whether you're willing to pay $6/month for this. :)
$6 a month is more than a fair price for me to eliminate robocalls; I receive about 5-10 on average in any given day.
The collateral damage are systems that have you mark your place in line and call you back. It seems like these could be manually whitelisted though with some ingenuity.
The collateral damage are systems that have you mark your place in line and call you back. It seems like these could be manually whitelisted though with some ingenuity.
DTMF based challenge is probably easier. Even requiring callers to dial 1 to ring through is enough to keep robocall campaigns from ringing your physical phone.
I've been thinking about issuing my friends and family priority access PINs. If they save it to their contact entry for me after the number, I can entirely gate access. e.g. "5558675309,9876" Especially if combined with a time condition e.g. 11 p.m. to 6 a.m.
I've been thinking about issuing my friends and family priority access PINs. If they save it to their contact entry for me after the number, I can entirely gate access. e.g. "5558675309,9876" Especially if combined with a time condition e.g. 11 p.m. to 6 a.m.
SS7 is so broken that there's little telco could do even if they put effort into it.
Fixing ss7 at this point would be like polishing the brass doorknobs on the Titanic.
This is a good analogy unfortunately. SMS is the worst culprit there from my standpoint, given companies use it to send short term credentials (yes they do...) or for 2fa.
I either disagree or am ignorant about SS7. See my other post on this page. Interested to read others thoughts about implementing a "opt-in, call back only or GTFO system".
If I have full control of a DID, implementing callback isn't hard. That would be a bandaid type solution built on top of the existing phone network, however. Fixing ss7 at a systemic level so that all call routing in and outbound is verifiable, CID spoofing is impossible, is what is nigh impossible.
Are there any proposed replacements? Even SIP has vulnerabilities, foot gun features, and fundamental design problems like use of MD5 digest, NAT intolerance, and vendor and device specific bugs.
@jonathanmayer
Any idea why the landline companies don't address this issue? Do they make money from spam calls? I signed up for the Nomo Robo service, that I believe won an FCC sponsored contest to provide a partial solution. And I think the landline providers actively faught against its use.
I imagine a significant number of POTS lines are used by robocall/scammer operations, if not directly through third party VOIP services. Make not qualms about it, ATT still treats POTS as it's bread and butter. They will do whatever it takes to keep that cashflow coming in.
The problem with fixing this is that, to extend your analogy, SS7 is like how SMTP worked in 1992 before anything like spf, dkim, dmarc, SSL/TLS. Adding extensions to it will break interoperability with the truly gargantuan installed base of old ss7 equipment around the world that nobody wants to pay to replace. It needs to be burnt to the ground and started over from first principles. But really, everything that we need can be implemented with pure VoIP.
I just don't answer my phone anymore unless I recognize the incoming number. And caller ID is trivially easy to spoof. Thankfully nobody spoofs any of the numbers of my top 50 contacts.
I just don't answer my phone anymore unless I recognize the incoming number. And caller ID is trivially easy to spoof. Thankfully nobody spoofs any of the numbers of my top 50 contacts.
Last year, a spammer spoofed with my business phone number as their caller ID. Mid-day, I start getting phone calls from people yelling at me to stop calling them, stop harassing them. Every 2-3 minutes, someone new and angry. After about 3 hours I had figured out what had happened and got ahold of my carrier and had them change my phone number.
I don't know enough about SS7 to understand if this is feasible, but it is clearly time for a call back based system. Millions of people signed up for the do not call registry. I am sure millions would sign up for a system where incoming calls trigger a call back. If your out bound call system doesn't support call back, don't worry because nobody wants to talk to anyone hiding behind the cloak of invisibility.
Building a callback system doesn't fix ss7 and is a bandaid slapped on top.
This is getting way out of hand, and I don’t know anybody who hasn’t the same observation, and has already changed their behaviour to NOT answer the phone by default.
If the major carriers don't soon understand the magnitude of the telephone spam/scam problem and treat it seriously, They will soon be crippling their business. While this is been likened here to the email spam problem in 2000, back then, everyone in the computer industry took the spam problem much more seriously telephone industry does now. E.,g., Verizon gleefully offers a blacklist where you can block 20 numbers (nevermind that the spam calls typically have spoofed caller IDs) -- they think they’re good, and it’s utterly useless.
They really need to implement a true Source ID (regardless of the presented caller ID), and a way to instantly flag calls as spam then do targeted tracking and prosecution. If they fail to do this or implement another effective solution, I expect they will lose a century-old line of business to new habits that work around the established habits.
If the major carriers don't soon understand the magnitude of the telephone spam/scam problem and treat it seriously, They will soon be crippling their business. While this is been likened here to the email spam problem in 2000, back then, everyone in the computer industry took the spam problem much more seriously telephone industry does now. E.,g., Verizon gleefully offers a blacklist where you can block 20 numbers (nevermind that the spam calls typically have spoofed caller IDs) -- they think they’re good, and it’s utterly useless.
They really need to implement a true Source ID (regardless of the presented caller ID), and a way to instantly flag calls as spam then do targeted tracking and prosecution. If they fail to do this or implement another effective solution, I expect they will lose a century-old line of business to new habits that work around the established habits.
Did you all have a sense for the scope of the problem in terms of number participants and market share? Is the bulk of the calls from a few larger networks, or is the bulk of the market one man shows?
So what am I doing that I've never once had a telemarketer call me, other than my car dealership or phone company. Canada can't be special. Is it because I use a cell phone for everything?
Canadian here. The CRA has called me about their criminal warrants for my arrest many times. The Chinese consulate keeps telling me to call them back.
But these are all on my work-phone and government agencies don't pay taxes anyway.
My personal phone has been relatively safe for unknown reasons that I'm happy about.
But these are all on my work-phone and government agencies don't pay taxes anyway.
My personal phone has been relatively safe for unknown reasons that I'm happy about.
Not canadian but used to travel there a lot and had a nice collection of prepaid sim cards. Every new prepaid line I registered got tons of calls from debt collectors, to telemarketers, to scammers.
So yeah it happens, though probably less blindly than US and more from information sharing.
So yeah it happens, though probably less blindly than US and more from information sharing.
Numerous calls here. Lately SMSes have started too. Sometime back, even WhatsApp messages from Philippines, but that spam stopped pretty quickly.
Does Google voice work for Canadian numbers?
I don’t believe you can register a canadian number. You can sign up and use it as a voicemail though I think.
If you are asking whether you can call and be called by canadians for free from american gvoice, the answer to that is yes.
If you are asking whether you can call and be called by canadians for free from american gvoice, the answer to that is yes.
Two other conspirators in Illinois were sentenced in February to between two years to just over four years for conspiracy, and a third person in Arizona was given probation in a plea agreement, it said.
Sounds like the Prisoner’s Dilemma paid off for that third person.
Sounds like the Prisoner’s Dilemma paid off for that third person.
Kitboga, over on Twitch[1], frequently livestreams the experience of talking to people executing IRS scams. Among other types of computer scams like "unlock your computer for X dollars," it's fascinating to listen in on the tactics used to prey on unassuming victims.
[1] - https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga
[1] - https://www.twitch.tv/kitboga
Such a legend. I hope he gets some sort of "Good guy of the year" award. It inspires me to make sure my own abilities contribute to the greater good.
I think having around 10.000 viewers at a time and the donations and subs coming in is helping ;)
I wonder if the information he got from his calls helped in this case.
I am so happy to see some of these predators get caught. A former coworker, a very smart but also very naive network engineer from the middle east, was hooked by these people shortly after immigrating. They said they were the US government and that he would be immediately deported if he didn't cooperate. He ending up sending them $30,000 if I recall correctly. :(
The reality is that the world is complicated. Some calls asking for money are completely legitimate, and if you don't act, bad things will happen. Others are total scams.
If you're new here, they both sound the same because they are: People asking money for stupid reasons. E.g. mis-applied payments, a "1st-world" banking system where payments take several days, lack of chip-and-PIN resulting in overdrafts and failed bill payments.
In some places, if a reporter stops by your work to ask you questions, you'll lose your job if you don't answer them, because the newspaper is the government. In the USA, it's usually the opposite.
It takes a while to sort it all out.
If you're new here, they both sound the same because they are: People asking money for stupid reasons. E.g. mis-applied payments, a "1st-world" banking system where payments take several days, lack of chip-and-PIN resulting in overdrafts and failed bill payments.
In some places, if a reporter stops by your work to ask you questions, you'll lose your job if you don't answer them, because the newspaper is the government. In the USA, it's usually the opposite.
It takes a while to sort it all out.
> Some calls asking for money are completely legitimate, and if you don't act, bad things will happen.
Have you got some examples? I don't think I ever got a call asking me for money. Or at least not one that I needed to act on immediately - a call from letting agency to check my rent payment would be the closest, but it was both verified and done outside of the call.
Have you got some examples? I don't think I ever got a call asking me for money. Or at least not one that I needed to act on immediately - a call from letting agency to check my rent payment would be the closest, but it was both verified and done outside of the call.
> I don't think I ever got a call asking me for money
I have gotten fraud alert calls from my bank or card issuer. When I got those, I would thank them, hang up and dial the number on the back of my card. Usually legit, but once it was not.
I have gotten fraud alert calls from my bank or card issuer. When I got those, I would thank them, hang up and dial the number on the back of my card. Usually legit, but once it was not.
The fraud alerts don't really ask you for money though. They give you information to act on rather than ask you for anything.
Not necessarily asking for money, but it can still lead to fraud. My wife got tripped up by one.
A guy called claiming to be from our bank. He said there were suspicious transactions in our recent account history, and he had some information about us. He knew our names, address, phone numbers, and even the last 4 digits of our social security numbers. He asked her to confirm her debit card number, and she gave it to him.
There's something surprising about a stranger having your personal information. It makes you think they're legitimate. My wife has a pile of degrees, and they still managed to trick her.
A guy called claiming to be from our bank. He said there were suspicious transactions in our recent account history, and he had some information about us. He knew our names, address, phone numbers, and even the last 4 digits of our social security numbers. He asked her to confirm her debit card number, and she gave it to him.
There's something surprising about a stranger having your personal information. It makes you think they're legitimate. My wife has a pile of degrees, and they still managed to trick her.
Fraud alert as in “did you do that? Because we froze your account in the meantime.” To lift the freeze, you have to tell them things.
That's interesting. I never got more than "did you make this transaction?" question, but I could imagine a scammer could start asking more detailed questions.
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I’m talking about not-north America. Where non-payment for something can lead to follow-up phone calls before it reaches the debt collection stage.
Sure iTunes gift cards sound strange to you, but the idea of asking for a cheque is unbelievable for a lot of the modern and developing world.
But in North America, I have gotten calls regarding payments from smaller vendors. My ISP likes money, so they’ve called me when my credit card expired. As has my dentist when a claim only went through 90%.
Sure iTunes gift cards sound strange to you, but the idea of asking for a cheque is unbelievable for a lot of the modern and developing world.
But in North America, I have gotten calls regarding payments from smaller vendors. My ISP likes money, so they’ve called me when my credit card expired. As has my dentist when a claim only went through 90%.
The IRS will never call you if you owe them money. They send such information through the mail.
The IRS won't, but there are others who will. It is not possible for a human to know all the entities in the world who they might owe money to and how they would contact you if you did owe them.
The IRS is big and scary, but if you get a call from xyz inc saying you owe money and this is your last chance before it goes to court, that is scary, and it could be true.
The IRS is big and scary, but if you get a call from xyz inc saying you owe money and this is your last chance before it goes to court, that is scary, and it could be true.
I have had the Canadian IRS call me because I didn’t respond to their letters that went to an old address.
Don't know if this is the same group, but it's pretty cathartic to watch
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzedMdx6QG4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EzedMdx6QG4
What all these bots need are phrases/scripts that the public can feed to them.
The phrases that keep them on the line the longest get played in the pool more frequently.
Long recordings get automatically posted to youtube.
They're so internet 1.0, we need to get to 2.0!
The phrases that keep them on the line the longest get played in the pool more frequently.
Long recordings get automatically posted to youtube.
They're so internet 1.0, we need to get to 2.0!
> 2 contractors in India involving five call centers in Ahmedabad, a city in western India, have been indicted on wire fraud, money laundering and other conspiracy charges as part of the operation, the department said. They have yet to be arraigned, it said.
Is there any realistic chance of Indian law enforcement catching up with these guys?
Is there any realistic chance of Indian law enforcement catching up with these guys?
None. Especially from that state, Gujarat. Home of corporate and financial crime. Sagar Thakkar fled to East Europe last year after netting $300 MM. It is upto FBI too pull its weight.
What? If you google his name it says the Indian government caught him in Dubai last year and he’s been sitting in jail ever since
Caught him in Mumbai on his return from Dubai :)
Had to google that as I wondered how they managed to catch him in another country.
Had to google that as I wondered how they managed to catch him in another country.
>Home of corporate and financial crime.
Man I didn't know corporate and financal crime put up a home office. That's pretty brazen.
Man I didn't know corporate and financal crime put up a home office. That's pretty brazen.
Gujarat indeed is the home office for corporate and financial crime. Denying it will be a travesty. Gujarat is where biggest bitcoin swindling happened in India, to the tune of $1 Billion. With active police involvement too.
Police in India plays a game on both sides of good and bad, they only take sides after its clear who is winning.
Its a standard tactic among police in India with regards to any crime/criminal.
Its very common for them to work for the the criminals. I remember a few years back there was an anti-corruption raid on a police inspectors home(in Koramangala, Bangalore) and in the gold jewelry recovered many residents complained it was the same jewelry stolen from their home a few years back. In short, the police helped the thieves to steal(provide information, logistical support and guard the home while the thief is stealing) and shared the spoils :) :)
Here is one more such case: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/police-he...
Recently there was a journalist whose scooter was stolen by the cops and was caught on CCTV.
In these cases the cops would have been paid off, its only when the crime becomes intolerable and larger media attention catches on do they act per law. Some times they even pay off the judges in lower courts.
Its a standard tactic among police in India with regards to any crime/criminal.
Its very common for them to work for the the criminals. I remember a few years back there was an anti-corruption raid on a police inspectors home(in Koramangala, Bangalore) and in the gold jewelry recovered many residents complained it was the same jewelry stolen from their home a few years back. In short, the police helped the thieves to steal(provide information, logistical support and guard the home while the thief is stealing) and shared the spoils :) :)
Here is one more such case: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/police-he...
Recently there was a journalist whose scooter was stolen by the cops and was caught on CCTV.
In these cases the cops would have been paid off, its only when the crime becomes intolerable and larger media attention catches on do they act per law. Some times they even pay off the judges in lower courts.
That is sad :(
I wonder why this isn't a problem in Europe, at least I haven't heard of anything like it. Is it because Indians don't speak German/French/Spanish/etc.? Or is the American phone system somehow worse than the European?
Probably because it’s easier to find Indian/Filipino call center operators who speak English and the US is such a large market that there’s no need to expand into smaller European markets.
I have the same question, the situation seems pretty dire in the USA but as far as I'm aware we don't have nearly the same problem over here. And while most Indians probably don't speak French many African countries do (after all, that's where we put our call centers) and I'm sure if it was possible to make millions that way somebody would've tried.
You have this issue in France as well but it's mostly concentrated on landlines, not mobile phones (no idea why).
Not an English problem, we don't have the problem to the level of the US in the UK either.
(have you been in an accident bots are around, but you don't get calls every day or multiple calls per day as a normal thing)
(have you been in an accident bots are around, but you don't get calls every day or multiple calls per day as a normal thing)
Something not talked about. Big uptick in robo calls since sites started texting me security codes to sign in.
Might be a coincidence. I'm sure some companies blatantly sell your contact information. It only takes one.
Sell, or just (pretend to) don't notice it being taken away.
The story I've heard several times from different people about how it's handled in Poland - your operator usually subcontracts their support & telemarketing to a third party; some spammer will pay an employee of that third party to "liberate" their customer database as they end their employment.
The story I've heard several times from different people about how it's handled in Poland - your operator usually subcontracts their support & telemarketing to a third party; some spammer will pay an employee of that third party to "liberate" their customer database as they end their employment.
Ahhh, maybe don't give out your phone number to Google and their ilk?
Bonus: a FU to warrantless NSA metadata spying.
Bonus: a FU to warrantless NSA metadata spying.
Nice to see some great cooperation with all those groups.
>“hundreds of millions” of dollars
I guess I'm not scamming anyone out of anything but if I was and got a million.... I like to think I'd be smart enough to burn everything and enjoy...
>“hundreds of millions” of dollars
I guess I'm not scamming anyone out of anything but if I was and got a million.... I like to think I'd be smart enough to burn everything and enjoy...
Greed is a complex and consuming emotion, don't underestimate it's ability to ensare people.
It's not just greed, or criminals.
I hear people all the time saying "if I made a startup and sold if for millions of dollars, I'd retire and never work again", when most people who do make millions on their startup continue to work. It's that work ethic that is what made them that multi-million dollar startup.
Whether criminal or not, there's a particular work ethic that keeps people like this making more money when they could retire happily.
I hear people all the time saying "if I made a startup and sold if for millions of dollars, I'd retire and never work again", when most people who do make millions on their startup continue to work. It's that work ethic that is what made them that multi-million dollar startup.
Whether criminal or not, there's a particular work ethic that keeps people like this making more money when they could retire happily.
I feel like that is a bit different.
The dude who sold their startup doesn't have much to lose at that point to take another shot.
The criminal though who goes for that extra million can lose it all.
Very different risks and stuff to weigh.
The dude who sold their startup doesn't have much to lose at that point to take another shot.
The criminal though who goes for that extra million can lose it all.
Very different risks and stuff to weigh.
I'm amazed how often that is what gets folks who could have gotten away with it but go too far.
Thank goodness criminals are dumb!
Thank goodness criminals are dumb!
> Thank goodness criminals are dumb!
Are they all dumb, or is it that only dumb ones get caught and you end up reading about them, while the smart ones carry on undetected?
Are they all dumb, or is it that only dumb ones get caught and you end up reading about them, while the smart ones carry on undetected?
It says the guys they've caught were laundering millions of dollars; they probably only got to keep a percentage of that, maybe even less than $1M.
Not knowing when/where to stop is like a big weakness among humans.
This is not just with scams and crimes, but even with good things.
This is not just with scams and crimes, but even with good things.
I've been pestered several times a day with the "last chance to lower your credit card rates" phone scam. I finally hit on a solution. I press 1 to speak to a representative, I get a human, then I follow their script until it gets to the "what's your credit card number" question.
I say I have to go look for it. So I randomly make noises like opening doors, closing drawers, shuffling papers. I had one on the line for 10 minutes before he gave up.
After a couple doses of "the treatment", they stop calling. Blessed relief!
This method works because it costs them human time. Just hanging up on their robot, or their human, doesn't work. They just call again.
I say I have to go look for it. So I randomly make noises like opening doors, closing drawers, shuffling papers. I had one on the line for 10 minutes before he gave up.
After a couple doses of "the treatment", they stop calling. Blessed relief!
This method works because it costs them human time. Just hanging up on their robot, or their human, doesn't work. They just call again.
I had an old landline number ported to Google Voice about 10 years ago. Now, 90% of the calls on that number are spam. Anything marked as spam in Google Voice still passes through to the Hangouts app. Google has done the most supremely crap job with Hangouts and Google Voice integration. Hey let's passthrough spam to the app and have no search function!
Hilariously quite a lot of calls are "Google SEO" related, scammy sounding credit offers, and political donation solicitations.
Hilariously quite a lot of calls are "Google SEO" related, scammy sounding credit offers, and political donation solicitations.
A lot of the Indian scammers have moved on to pretending to be the CRA (Canada revenue agency), the Canuck version of the IRS. Toronto and Vancouver area codes are plagued by robodialers connecting to fake cra scam call centers. Canada has a lot less resources than the US to spend manpower investigating and building cases with the Indian law enforcement agencies.
A friend lost a significant amount of money to what could have been this scam. The MO fits (posing as the IRS, threatening with arrest/deportation, collecting payments via gift cards).
The article mentions restitution. Does anyone know how he could find out if he's eligible?
The article mentions restitution. Does anyone know how he could find out if he's eligible?
This response is going to sound like a joke but it isn't: be sure to tell him that they won't call him to discuss restitution. It's extremely common for scammers to sell the list of their successful "buyers". Marks on the IRS scam lists will now be called by people saying "we are from the IRS scam restitution department, just need your bank details so we can return your money..."
This is so sad. It's kind of like how charities heavily target those who have given before. And spear-phishing.
Business idea: shared phone assistants. Whenever someone calls your number, the assistant answers only "hello?", they have to speak to your assistant and ask for you by name and/or passphrase to be connected to you.
You can add some prestige to calling someone (having a human answering and screening your calls for you) at a pretty low cost (1 minute per call? 2-3 cheap workers could cover the whole biz, could share lines between ~ 50-100 people with distinct sounding names). eliminate all unsolicited calls for the customer.
You can add some prestige to calling someone (having a human answering and screening your calls for you) at a pretty low cost (1 minute per call? 2-3 cheap workers could cover the whole biz, could share lines between ~ 50-100 people with distinct sounding names). eliminate all unsolicited calls for the customer.
Too expensive to scale. Recorded greetings and directories have been around for a long time. Just having "Welcome to XYZ Co. For sales press 1, for support press 2, for a staff directory press 3" etc. is fairly effective in rebuffing robocalls as only human spammers bother pressing digits.
Good work, now go after those "extended warranty" people.
I have just read some recent reports and complaints filed by people at http://www.whycall.me/631-318-6350.html about these IRS scams. I think people should have been really aware of such scams, because they have been around harassing us for years. We also need to keep spreading the words to everyone about this.
Dang, I liked wasting these guys time. My technique was to pause as long as possible while obviously stuffing my face with Cheetos and telling them hang on
I conferenced in a bot called Lenny:
sip:[email protected] or plain old 1-347-514-7296
A lot of spam callers hang up once I say I'm transferring them, but sometimes they talk to Lenny until the whole script loops!
sip:[email protected] or plain old 1-347-514-7296
A lot of spam callers hang up once I say I'm transferring them, but sometimes they talk to Lenny until the whole script loops!
There is no way this was all the scammers. Don't worry about it!
> They chose their victims through information obtained from “data brokers” or from other sources, the department said.
Would be interesting to know more about this. In the legit call center business the phone numbers of people who have previously bought something are more valuable. The ability to target specific demographics is probably a prerequisite for a scam like this, calling randomly would be really expensive.
Would be interesting to know more about this. In the legit call center business the phone numbers of people who have previously bought something are more valuable. The ability to target specific demographics is probably a prerequisite for a scam like this, calling randomly would be really expensive.
It could be either way. Obviously targeted to specific demographics is the most effective, but phone calls especially robocalls are very cheap. Even ratios as low as 10^-6 are profitable when you make millions of robocalls. The USA Do Not Call list is a de facto live number list. Illegal telemarketers (redundant?) can directly use it as their target list. Another method is to randomly call numbers and mark "Hello?" responses as live.
I rarely receive calls these days and when I receive, they are mostly scams or telemarketers, so I basically accept call from a small set of whitelist and drop the rest.
Most people who need to speak to me attempt to contact me via different means anyways. I don't have much faith they will ever fix PSTN that I'm dreaming for the day I can start ignoring all calls.
Most people who need to speak to me attempt to contact me via different means anyways. I don't have much faith they will ever fix PSTN that I'm dreaming for the day I can start ignoring all calls.
You know, this scam probably wouldn't have been as successful if the real IRS didn't behave like a bunch of shady scam artists themselves. Twice over the years, I've been sent very intimidating letters by the IRS claiming I owe back taxes on clearly erronous assumptions by them. These have both been cleared up by submitting documentation but I've had to spend a good chunk of time in doing so. I also cannot phone them directly, I must fax reams of personal info to some random fax number with no confirmation they even received it.
By the time I received the IRS letters, I typically had to respond within a matter of days or face additional penalties (what if I was on vacation). Even the most basic of cross checking my tax forms would have clearly shown everything was legit. And these were by no means unusual or complex tax situations, just very basic things that millions of Americans report on their taxes every year. But even though I knew everything was above board, the tax laws are so convoluted that I was in constant fear the IRS would still find some BS reason I owed them more money.
By the time I received the IRS letters, I typically had to respond within a matter of days or face additional penalties (what if I was on vacation). Even the most basic of cross checking my tax forms would have clearly shown everything was legit. And these were by no means unusual or complex tax situations, just very basic things that millions of Americans report on their taxes every year. But even though I knew everything was above board, the tax laws are so convoluted that I was in constant fear the IRS would still find some BS reason I owed them more money.
Good work, it's heartening to see that these institutions eventually work together. Hopefully this success can be replicated with scammers who have targets less directly interesting to the state.
Literally got an fake IRS robocall threatening litigation yesterday and my brother received the same call the day before that.
Do they ask for direct bank transfer? US government should educate citizens about the only accepted ways of payment to US gov.
From what I've read the victim is asked to go buy itunes gift cards and read the numbers to the scammers. They are looking for only the most vulnerable of people.
Can anyone recommend an app to block these robocalls?
Yeah, well, I got one of those calls just last Friday.
Finally. I've been harassed by those idiots for almost a year. How did it take so long?
> How did it take so long?
Collective action problem [1]. Namely, our system requires people to document and report such problems. Few people do. As a result, certain problems get disproportionate interest compared to others.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action
Collective action problem [1]. Namely, our system requires people to document and report such problems. Few people do. As a result, certain problems get disproportionate interest compared to others.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action
The inherent difficulty in catching criminals who act from a distance, international police cooperation is required, following due process and using extradition treaties. Even extradition between USA states can convince local police to shelve less severe crime cases until the suspect visits the jurisdiction again. If a scammer is located in Russia, it will take a literal FBI trap to bring them to justice.
A fake IRS phone scam? So it's a real IRS phone scam, and not a fake one?
- Call your phone provider, ask them to block all incoming international calls.
- Ask international callers to use an app instead.
I used to get calls every day and after doing this it stopped.
- Ask international callers to use an app instead.
I used to get calls every day and after doing this it stopped.
Most calls from scammers I get come from my area code. Well it makes it easy for me, since I don't live in the area code my cell phone is from, so I know not to pickup. But in general blocking international calls might be easily circumvented.
They don't come from your area code, that's just part of the spoofing.
I meant to say the caller ID shows numbers from the local area code often. So blocking international numbers might not work.
The signaling data includes the real origin. CID is convenience data provided by the originator. The telcos wouldn’t use it for anything important, like billing.
That said, the robocall problem is getting worse, not better. Robocall volume is at an all-time high: https://robocallindex.com/
In many respects, the problem of telephone spam today is similar to the problem of email spam in the early 2000s. Litigating against spammers had limited efficacy, so the community developed blacklists, better filtering, and stronger authentication (SPF, DKIM, and DMARC).
Until the major carriers get serious about similar steps, especially filtering and authentication (i.e. SHAKEN and STIR), these fraudulent calls won't stop. And, in the interim, vulnerable populations will continue to be disproportionately victimized.