The largest cave owner in the U.S.(outsideonline.com)
outsideonline.com
The largest cave owner in the U.S.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2414888/john-ackerman-caves-minnesota
52 comments
My heart is racing and I'm sweaty just reading this. Caving is not a hobby I plan on exploring.
Never thought I'd get sweaty hands from reading a Hacker News comment but here we are. I'm not claustrophobic at all but no way in hell I'm ever doing any spelunking voluntarily.
Years ago I visited Mammoth Cave, KY. There I learned about cave explorer Floyd Collins. He was trapped in a cave in 1925 and the incident attracted wide attention. I started reading about Collins and this is still one of the most terrifying reads for me. I cannot imagine being trapped so tightly, underground with no light and for so long.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/544782/1925-cave-rescue-...
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/544782/1925-cave-rescue-...
My wife and I spelunked quite a lot in the East, especially north GA and TN. I thought the cramped muddy passages were a lot of fun, ditto climbing up waterfalls. Prusiking straight up a 100', NBD. We're from FL and GA. Nice stable ground.
And then we lived through a dozen or so Bay Area earthquakes, including '89. I was able to get a ballpark estimate of the speed of the waves by counting the seconds it took them to move through the grasslands on the Bay side of NASA Ames (I was jogging, ground fell away from my feet). Measured the distance, and the result (I forget now), was within 20%.
Gotta different perspective now about how stable rocks are.
And then we lived through a dozen or so Bay Area earthquakes, including '89. I was able to get a ballpark estimate of the speed of the waves by counting the seconds it took them to move through the grasslands on the Bay side of NASA Ames (I was jogging, ground fell away from my feet). Measured the distance, and the result (I forget now), was within 20%.
Gotta different perspective now about how stable rocks are.
I know how you feel. The story of Utah's Nutty Putty cave, the failed rescue attempt and later the movie they made about the failed rescue did this to me as well.
I was sad and frustrated to hear about that story. Personally Nutty Putty freaked me out and I still wish I hadn't gone. The "viscerally uncomfortable" part far outweighed the interest factor.
I remember wondering why I was having to put such a huge amount of conscious effort into the process of turning around to head back to the cave entrance. Feeling stuck, clamped between huge slabs of rock is just not that fun to me. And while someone is saying "you can do it, you got this," describing to you how your limbs are arranged, so that you can even figure out how to move at all...
I had traveled there at age 18 with a few other teenagers. This factor also kind of blows my mind. Another one of the complicating issues was that we were going at the pace of the most experienced among us, who was very much a risk taker. Phew, major respect to spelunkers but I think I got off to the worst start possible, at the worst place possible for a guy like me. Every time I would hear about a tragedy in that cave it made me regret even the idea of cave exploring.
I remember wondering why I was having to put such a huge amount of conscious effort into the process of turning around to head back to the cave entrance. Feeling stuck, clamped between huge slabs of rock is just not that fun to me. And while someone is saying "you can do it, you got this," describing to you how your limbs are arranged, so that you can even figure out how to move at all...
I had traveled there at age 18 with a few other teenagers. This factor also kind of blows my mind. Another one of the complicating issues was that we were going at the pace of the most experienced among us, who was very much a risk taker. Phew, major respect to spelunkers but I think I got off to the worst start possible, at the worst place possible for a guy like me. Every time I would hear about a tragedy in that cave it made me regret even the idea of cave exploring.
Spelunking and cave diving stories are always horror stories to me.
I'll _never_ understand how "And then we had to take off all our gear and scoot forward by pushing with our bare toes for 30 minutes to reach the next cave" is perfectly normal for some people...
I'll _never_ understand how "And then we had to take off all our gear and scoot forward by pushing with our bare toes for 30 minutes to reach the next cave" is perfectly normal for some people...
I was watching this Studio Ghibli movie, The Red Turtle, which is a very calm animated movie with basically no words.
And the guy swims through an underwater cave and gets stuck for a moment.
just a silly animated scene.
...but in that moment I went from relaxed to heart in my throat.
And the guy swims through an underwater cave and gets stuck for a moment.
just a silly animated scene.
...but in that moment I went from relaxed to heart in my throat.
There have been a couple horror/adventure films about people in tight caves. I will never watch these.
Hah! Similarly surprised to see this here. I spent a little bit of time with John back in the summer of 2007 during a research project at the University of Minnesota. I had just finished my full cave diving certification and got roped into an attempt to push past a sump at the end of Coldwater Cave in northern Iowa. It was unfortunately unsuccessful; after a few dozen feet underwater the passage cinched down to just a few inches wide. Oh well.
The article captures well the cold war between Ackerman and the Minnesota DNR; I was warned not to mention John's name when helping survey part of the DNR's Mystery Cave, and the article says John still hasn't managed to get access to the cave's unsurveyed areas, 13 years later.
Then again, when the DNR blocks you from a cave's public entrance and you respond by hiring a well-borer to drill a private entrance across the road... well, it's not the most friendly of relationships. Photos of that whole process at http://www.cavepreserve.com/goliath.html. If I recall correctly, John took a some pleasure from the fact that the DNR can't access the full extent of Goliath's Cave under their property without first trespassing into passages that he owns. And indeed, the property line is prominently marked on the map linked from that page!
The article captures well the cold war between Ackerman and the Minnesota DNR; I was warned not to mention John's name when helping survey part of the DNR's Mystery Cave, and the article says John still hasn't managed to get access to the cave's unsurveyed areas, 13 years later.
Then again, when the DNR blocks you from a cave's public entrance and you respond by hiring a well-borer to drill a private entrance across the road... well, it's not the most friendly of relationships. Photos of that whole process at http://www.cavepreserve.com/goliath.html. If I recall correctly, John took a some pleasure from the fact that the DNR can't access the full extent of Goliath's Cave under their property without first trespassing into passages that he owns. And indeed, the property line is prominently marked on the map linked from that page!
Heya, I haven't gotten out to most of the western US apart from a bit of TAG and Mammoth / Fisher Ridge. Working on that cave diver cert :D.
[email protected]
[email protected]
That said, anyone reading this shouldn't let this experience deter them from trying caving at least once. Caving is one of the most underrated and obscure outdoor sports, mostly because it's really hard to go caving without an "in" to the caving community. Caving can be safe and extremely fun if you are going with someone in a local grotto (i.e. caving club), and not all caves have a "spiral passageway barely able to fit a human". If you feel unsafe at any point, no one is going to make you squeeze through that foot-wide and thirty-foot-long tunnel.
There is also obviously a big emphasis in caving communities on safety, such as wearing protective gear and bringing twice as much light/water as you think you'll need. Many areas I've been caving (in Virginia/West Virginia) also have amateur cave rescue volunteers if something does go bad (although they should absolutely be a last resort).
There is also obviously a big emphasis in caving communities on safety, such as wearing protective gear and bringing twice as much light/water as you think you'll need. Many areas I've been caving (in Virginia/West Virginia) also have amateur cave rescue volunteers if something does go bad (although they should absolutely be a last resort).
It certainly doesn't seem like either private or public ownership is optimal for this situation and something much more democratic involving all stakeholders would be beneficial. Interesting case study. I appreciated the article highlighting the debate.
I think governance in general is a hard problem, and private or public ownership is not what is going to make or brake it.
The aboriginal sites being exploited in coal mining comes to mind.
The aboriginal sites being exploited in coal mining comes to mind.
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Sometimes I wonder how many large caves exist in the world that we simply don't know about because they have no natural exit and no other easy way to locate them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Gray_Park_Cave_discovery
> The Wells Gray Park Cave discovery of 2018 was of a karst cave in Wells Gray Provincial Park, in the Cariboo Mountains in British Columbia, Canada. The cave has informally been named Sarlacc's Pit pending an official name.
> The cave may have been snow-covered year-round until the 20th century.
> The Wells Gray Park Cave discovery of 2018 was of a karst cave in Wells Gray Provincial Park, in the Cariboo Mountains in British Columbia, Canada. The cave has informally been named Sarlacc's Pit pending an official name.
> The cave may have been snow-covered year-round until the 20th century.
“ Ackerman grew up in Burnsville, a drab suburb of Minneapolis”
Spent my middle and high school years living there. Can confirm with the exception of the Minnesota Valley Natural Wildlife refuge. It was in my backyard and the saving grace of the otherwise bleak suburbs.
On a different note, growing up there you’d hear every year or so of someone who died in the St. Paul caves due to trapped gases (maybe co2 or methane? ). Are gases a similar concern in the driftless caves?
Spent my middle and high school years living there. Can confirm with the exception of the Minnesota Valley Natural Wildlife refuge. It was in my backyard and the saving grace of the otherwise bleak suburbs.
On a different note, growing up there you’d hear every year or so of someone who died in the St. Paul caves due to trapped gases (maybe co2 or methane? ). Are gases a similar concern in the driftless caves?
If I recall correctly, most of the deaths in the St. Paul caves are from people starting makeshift campfires in areas without any ventilation. Seems to be backed up by this MPR News article from 2004: http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/04/28_ap...
Generally speaking, you don't worry about breathing in caves: if you can get there unaided, then so can ambient air. The risks are mainly when you're traversing a completely flooded portion of the cave (a "sump"), since you can't be certain that the dry passages on the other side have any exposure to the outside atmosphere.
Edit: You do have to be wary of rain and flash flooding in the Driftless Area. It's not fun to see little twigs and leaves plastered to the ceiling in, for example, Goliath's Cave, since it means that the entire system can flood under the wrong circumstances. Caves are great fun, but they don't mess around. I'd encourage anyone interested in caving to reach out to their local clubs; we're friendly! For folks in the US, the National Speleological Society maintains a list of "grottos" at https://caves.org/committee/i-o/grottos/new_grotto_page-v2.s....
Generally speaking, you don't worry about breathing in caves: if you can get there unaided, then so can ambient air. The risks are mainly when you're traversing a completely flooded portion of the cave (a "sump"), since you can't be certain that the dry passages on the other side have any exposure to the outside atmosphere.
Edit: You do have to be wary of rain and flash flooding in the Driftless Area. It's not fun to see little twigs and leaves plastered to the ceiling in, for example, Goliath's Cave, since it means that the entire system can flood under the wrong circumstances. Caves are great fun, but they don't mess around. I'd encourage anyone interested in caving to reach out to their local clubs; we're friendly! For folks in the US, the National Speleological Society maintains a list of "grottos" at https://caves.org/committee/i-o/grottos/new_grotto_page-v2.s....
Article does not present any evidence of his size or the size of any other cave owners.
St. Paul in the late 90s, there was a series of underground (literally) parties, known as the "rave in a cave". They took place in the Wabasha caves: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabasha_Street_Caves
The entrance to where the parties were being held has been sealed, but there are other various entrances near the river. Every few years some kids get stuck, and the city tries to restrict entrance. Caves are just too interesting.
The entrance to where the parties were being held has been sealed, but there are other various entrances near the river. Every few years some kids get stuck, and the city tries to restrict entrance. Caves are just too interesting.
Certain caves were used as speakeasies in the 1920s, too. Mobsters who had an "agreement" with the Cities of Minneapolis/St. Paul to not cause trouble in exchange for not being arrested/pursued up here could spend time drinking and gambling in peace.
For an interesting contrast, check out the history of cave temples in the karst formations of Southeast Asia. I'm most familiar with those in Malaysia, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Caves. There it's common for religious groups (Buddhist or Hindu) to purchase a cave and develop it into a temple, complete with concrete floors and living spaces for the monks. It's a completely different attitude towards transforming yet conserving the natural environment that really shocked me coming from American caves where everything is "look but don't touch."
These caves in SE MN are in whats called the 'Driftless Area' [0] because it was -not- covered by ice (which would have left 'drift' behind) during recent glacial periods. But it -was surrounded- by ice. You might guess that as a result many of the caves may have been created by draining meltwater.
As a result, Ackerman may not have enough money to corner the market!
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area
As a result, Ackerman may not have enough money to corner the market!
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area
i like caves till the point where you have to squeeze your body in this little crack.
What happens if theres a earthquake when im trying to pass through.
Caves are generally pretty stable over short geologic-periods. Otherwise they wouldn't be there.
Mines on the otherhand... mines are where you get fucked.
Mines on the otherhand... mines are where you get fucked.
if there is an earthquake then i wouldn't want to be anywhere near a cave, let alone be stuck in a tight spot.
A while back I visited a cave with a large room that had been previously used some sort sort of public gatherings. The room was rather wide with no supports in the middle. A local official had expressed concern that the room was unsafe and could collapse in an earthquake. The cave operator informed that official that the cave room had been just like that for millions of years, and it was probably safer than any above ground building.
[deleted]
hanniabu(1)
Why sharing paid articles?
It didn't ask me to pay, it showed a "Please donate" overlay with an option to continue without donating?
It's not a pay-wall; it's a beg-wall.
why not? In all seriousness, and you're not the only person that asks this: doesn't the website have a right to make money? Do you think a journalist did all that work and travel for free?
What's the difference between a link to a paywall, and an ad?
Both are ways of getting paid. The website decides that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
Are paywalls ok?
It's ok to post stories from sites with paywalls that have workarounds.
In comments, it's ok to ask how to read an article and to help other users do so. But please don't post complaints about paywalls. Those are off topic.
Are paywalls ok?
It's ok to post stories from sites with paywalls that have workarounds.
In comments, it's ok to ask how to read an article and to help other users do so. But please don't post complaints about paywalls. Those are off topic.
I visited two of Ackerman's caves (Spring Valley and Temple of Doom) in May of 2002. It was a few days shy of high school graduation and summer was starting to arrive in Minnesota.
My future Firebase co-founder, Andrew, and our high school classmate, Bob, made the drive down there one Saturday. Bob had been a sort-of pupil of Ackerman's, helping him explore and map the various caves he had found.
The day started innocuously enough with a visit to the main Spring Valley Cave that the article references as being previously owned and equipped to give tours. Bob took us off the steel gantry-ways and into some side passageways and chambers that were rarely trafficked.
It was the second cave, Temple of Doom, that was the more, ah, interesting experience. It has only recently been discovered and wasn't fully mapped yet. We popped open a man-hole cover in the middle of a corn field and dropped down a ~50 foot steel ladder. From there the cave descended in a spiral, with the passageway barely able to fit a human. Bob, typically the most composed human I knew, occasionally burst into fits of expletives, followed by silence. "Uhhh... Bob, everything OK?". Descending a 20-30 degree downward slope with inches to spare on every side, occasionally getting stuck, and with no way to turn-around was hair-raising.
After some undetermined period of time we finally got to the bottom of the spiral. At this point, Bob announced we could either brace ourselves between two sheer, very wet, rock faces and climb up ~100 feet without ropes, or go back the way we came. So... up the rock faces we went. Fortunately nobody slipped.
I can still viscerally feel the elation of emerging into bright afternoon sun of the corn field, grateful and relieved to be uninjured.
This was one of the several intense and bonding experiences Andrew and I had together, and perhaps contributed to why we kept working together despite some early startup failures.
As for Bob, he kept on spending time with Ackerman, until one day he was buried alive by a cave entrance collapse. Ackerman dug him out with a backhoe, but he was a little more wary of caving after.