Surface Laptop 4(blogs.windows.com)
blogs.windows.com
Surface Laptop 4
https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2021/04/13/introducing-surface-laptop-4-and-new-accessories-for-enhanced-meeting-experiences/
371 comments
> 3:2 screen ratio, I really wish the whole PC industry including Mac moves towards it. Even 16:10 is not enough when we increasingly clutter the vertical space with OS menus, controls, dock. And then Browsers address bar, tab bar, then we have the WebSite layout which is also taking vertical space at the top for navigation.
I hated the 16:9 popularity of computer flat screens. Definitely agree about needing lots of vertical space. I was content with 1600x1200 for years, and then 1920x1200 (1.6 vs 1.5 ratio) was available that was acceptable. Amazing how much smaller 1920x1080 felt, and is just a joke for anything other than watching videos (maybe games? i'm not a gamer) in my daily usage. Never tried one of those rotated 90, but it might be more useful as 9:16.
I hated the 16:9 popularity of computer flat screens. Definitely agree about needing lots of vertical space. I was content with 1600x1200 for years, and then 1920x1200 (1.6 vs 1.5 ratio) was available that was acceptable. Amazing how much smaller 1920x1080 felt, and is just a joke for anything other than watching videos (maybe games? i'm not a gamer) in my daily usage. Never tried one of those rotated 90, but it might be more useful as 9:16.
Haha, same here.
Last week I watched a review of the LG gram and the reviewer said he liked the new 16:10 screens more, because they are higher and this new [sic] trend was promising.
Meanwhile I'm using one of the last reasonably priced 16:10 screens I could get 10 years ago before the whole industry decided people only want 16:9.
Same goes with glare and non-glare
It's like display creators lost their minds in 2005.
Last week I watched a review of the LG gram and the reviewer said he liked the new 16:10 screens more, because they are higher and this new [sic] trend was promising.
Meanwhile I'm using one of the last reasonably priced 16:10 screens I could get 10 years ago before the whole industry decided people only want 16:9.
Same goes with glare and non-glare
It's like display creators lost their minds in 2005.
For laptops/smaller desktop screens, the taller ratio definitely makes sense, although for laptops it makes for some form factor challenges in terms of overall and perceived size.
For larger desktop screens, I definitely prefer the aspect ratio most closely matching full screen video. And for my comically large (43”) monitor, I couldn’t use the extra vertical space if I tried. Reducing the width would just limit my usable horizontal space and shrink video for my dual purpose TV use.
> Same goes with glare and non-glare
On this I’d also distinguish portable/desktop use cases. And weirdly they’re the opposite of what I’d prefer. It’s almost impossible for me to find large screen glass-front monitors with the contrast and color space benefits that come with that. And portable usage definitely benefits more from glare protection.
For larger desktop screens, I definitely prefer the aspect ratio most closely matching full screen video. And for my comically large (43”) monitor, I couldn’t use the extra vertical space if I tried. Reducing the width would just limit my usable horizontal space and shrink video for my dual purpose TV use.
> Same goes with glare and non-glare
On this I’d also distinguish portable/desktop use cases. And weirdly they’re the opposite of what I’d prefer. It’s almost impossible for me to find large screen glass-front monitors with the contrast and color space benefits that come with that. And portable usage definitely benefits more from glare protection.
> And for my comically large (43”) monitor, I couldn’t use the extra vertical space if I tried.
It's actually pretty hilarious if you have a monitor arm that allows rotating the monitor, the amount of vertical space is ludicrous. You can fit a side by side diff with over 200 lines of code visible.
It's not very practical, though.
It's actually pretty hilarious if you have a monitor arm that allows rotating the monitor, the amount of vertical space is ludicrous. You can fit a side by side diff with over 200 lines of code visible.
It's not very practical, though.
One of my monitors is a widescreen that I have rotated. It's great for having lots of code but unfortunately too narrow for diffs.
I got nerdy about it and measured the ratio... you'd get 250 lines at my not very good eyesight 12pt font size. A more common font size might eve yield 300 lines
Keep in mind that the monitor will be pretty far from your eyes at those dimensions. For me, when rotated, the monitor extends from below waist height to the top of my head when standing straight at a standing desk.
It's a bit silly though, since the keyboard is far too low for typing comments on a diff. And if one raises the desk so that the keyboard is at the right height, it's a good workout for the neck to put it mildly.
It's a bit silly though, since the keyboard is far too low for typing comments on a diff. And if one raises the desk so that the keyboard is at the right height, it's a good workout for the neck to put it mildly.
My goodness my whole body got tired trying to imagine using this.
I'm really digging my 2560x1440 display. Lots of vertical and enough room for two side by side windows.
I am still using two 1600x1200 screens at home, since 2007. Samsung 204B, replaced capacitors once.
I didn't see 1920x1080 as worth the upgrade. Although I have recently had to tweak/mod a few games as they didn't support my screen resolution.
Now, I want 2x 4k screens: - play games at 1080, I have not the money for 4k gaming at high refresh rates.
- and desktop productivity at 4k, with one screen portrait for reading.
I didn't see 1920x1080 as worth the upgrade. Although I have recently had to tweak/mod a few games as they didn't support my screen resolution.
Now, I want 2x 4k screens: - play games at 1080, I have not the money for 4k gaming at high refresh rates.
- and desktop productivity at 4k, with one screen portrait for reading.
Wowza! Is your skin semi-transparent with all of those rads streaming at you? Those old school CRTs were gorgeous, and I kept ahold of mine until it bit the dust in 2008. I do enjoy the desk real estate that was recovered after getting rid of those dinosaurs.
I had a massive Trinitron before these but no, a Samsung 204B is nothing like those glorious old CRTs. A 204B is old tech LCD now, not that great really, but functional.
I do sunburn far easier than I'd like though! :-P
I do sunburn far easier than I'd like though! :-P
I went the 4K route. I initially wanted a 40 inch 4K but settled for 32 inch. I'd recommend to get a single 40K display. You'll have the screen real estate of 4 24" monitors at 1080p side by side plus some extra space on top and bottom.
You can probably use it without scaling so high dpi compatibility won't be a problem.
Don't settle for 32 inch get a 40+ inch one.
You can probably use it without scaling so high dpi compatibility won't be a problem.
Don't settle for 32 inch get a 40+ inch one.
>I'd recommend to get a single 40K display.
Hellzyeah! Where can I get one of those bad boys? And how many arms and legs plus first born children are needed to give up to get one of those mythical beasts?
Can't decide if you mean 40" display or 4K display? Or did you combine 40" + 4k into 40k?
Hellzyeah! Where can I get one of those bad boys? And how many arms and legs plus first born children are needed to give up to get one of those mythical beasts?
Can't decide if you mean 40" display or 4K display? Or did you combine 40" + 4k into 40k?
Once you went the 4K way every other DPI resolution looks awful. I had a private 4K monitor and got a company laptop update and a new monitor at the office. I first thought what the heck can't the IT department get their video drives right on a fresh install until I realized that unsharp resolution just is the native pixel densitiy of the display.
So in order to get crisp DPIs, 32'' with fractional scaling might still make sense. At least to me, it's like reading crisp sharp paper online.
So in order to get crisp DPIs, 32'' with fractional scaling might still make sense. At least to me, it's like reading crisp sharp paper online.
Not sure how you arrived at the 40" number, but I tried this when shopping for a new screen and could not stand the head movement needed to handle that size, as well as the geometry distortion due to the flatness. 32" ended up the sweet spot for me. Maybe a highly curved 40" 4K would work better? That I haven't tried yet.
I've had a Thinkvision 1920x1200 IPS for years. I'd love to get a higher resolution replacement, but nothing modern has that 1.6 aspect ratio that I've found to be so practical.
I have two 24" 1920x1200 (16:10) monitors at work, one of them rotated 90 degrees. I previously had to 24" 1920x1080 (16:9) monitors in the same configuration, and 16:10 is far preferable imo. The 1080 pixel width is often just a little too narrow for comfortable browsing (causing mobile layouts to be used or horizontal scrolling to be necessary), and I haven't had any of that since switching to the 16:10 monitors.
My home (and home office) setup is 14" 1920x1080 laptop + 24" 2560x1440 screen (1x scaling), and I like that a lot, too. The WQHD screen is wide enough to have two things open side by side, which can feel cramped on FHD, while also having sufficiently many vertical pixels.
My home (and home office) setup is 14" 1920x1080 laptop + 24" 2560x1440 screen (1x scaling), and I like that a lot, too. The WQHD screen is wide enough to have two things open side by side, which can feel cramped on FHD, while also having sufficiently many vertical pixels.
I always figured that 16:9 screens took off because they could leverage the panels being produced en masse for HDTVs.
That sort of made sense for desktop monitors, for a little while, but the overlap between laptop/monitor and TV offerings has almost completely disappeared-- 17" and smaller TVs are not mass market items.
I wonder if part of it is just as a penny pinching gimmick now: a square monitor of X diagonal gives you more square centimetres of panel than a wider screen does.
That sort of made sense for desktop monitors, for a little while, but the overlap between laptop/monitor and TV offerings has almost completely disappeared-- 17" and smaller TVs are not mass market items.
I wonder if part of it is just as a penny pinching gimmick now: a square monitor of X diagonal gives you more square centimetres of panel than a wider screen does.
Last week I finally upgraded my home setup to two 27" 2560×1440 displays which are 16:9. I had two 1920×1080 before that, while at work I have two 1920×1200 (16:10), not that I've seen those in a year. I'm only a week in, but I have to say it's a really nice setup.
The increase in vertical space is exactly what I was missing while coding: that alone is a significant and worthwhile upgrade, and for that the fact it's 16:9 is kind of irrelevant. Because it's 16:9, YouTube, games, etc still work the way they always did.
Compared to my monitors at work (1920×1200 / 16:10), the benefit is I can run two browser windows side-by-side with a comfortable 1280px width that most sites work great with. 1920px is too narrow to run 50%/50%, but I find also usually wasted at 100% width.
There's not that many other options.
I can't actually find many 16:10 on the market.
4K is usually 3840x2160, which is 16:9. For me this doesn't make sense: either the monitor(s) end up being too massive, the text is too tiny, or I have to scale up and basically have the same vertical space as 1080p 16:9 just with sharper text.
21:9 3440x1440 is probably the next most popular aspect ratio, but two are just way too big for my desk space and I didn't think I'd be happy with one (it's only a tiny bit more area vs 2x 1080p).
The 32:9 "ultra-wide" 5120x1440 look pretty great, but in practice seem to have some challenges. As an example, you can't really do full screen sharing anymore because no one else can see it. Window management becomes a constant pain because "full screen" most apps/websites are just not going to be useful at 5120px wide. And for games it seems to be mixed: when they work it looks pretty cool, but many don't work properly. And on top of that, going fullscreen gaming means you don't get a second monitor to keep an eye on something else, even if your game is running in 16:9 with black bars. For video editors or people working on stupidly big spreadsheets it might make sense, but not for me. (Doesn't help it's 4x the cost of a 2560×1440 display, either).
The increase in vertical space is exactly what I was missing while coding: that alone is a significant and worthwhile upgrade, and for that the fact it's 16:9 is kind of irrelevant. Because it's 16:9, YouTube, games, etc still work the way they always did.
Compared to my monitors at work (1920×1200 / 16:10), the benefit is I can run two browser windows side-by-side with a comfortable 1280px width that most sites work great with. 1920px is too narrow to run 50%/50%, but I find also usually wasted at 100% width.
There's not that many other options.
I can't actually find many 16:10 on the market.
4K is usually 3840x2160, which is 16:9. For me this doesn't make sense: either the monitor(s) end up being too massive, the text is too tiny, or I have to scale up and basically have the same vertical space as 1080p 16:9 just with sharper text.
21:9 3440x1440 is probably the next most popular aspect ratio, but two are just way too big for my desk space and I didn't think I'd be happy with one (it's only a tiny bit more area vs 2x 1080p).
The 32:9 "ultra-wide" 5120x1440 look pretty great, but in practice seem to have some challenges. As an example, you can't really do full screen sharing anymore because no one else can see it. Window management becomes a constant pain because "full screen" most apps/websites are just not going to be useful at 5120px wide. And for games it seems to be mixed: when they work it looks pretty cool, but many don't work properly. And on top of that, going fullscreen gaming means you don't get a second monitor to keep an eye on something else, even if your game is running in 16:9 with black bars. For video editors or people working on stupidly big spreadsheets it might make sense, but not for me. (Doesn't help it's 4x the cost of a 2560×1440 display, either).
> 4K is usually 3840x2160, which is 16:9. For me this doesn't make sense: either the monitor(s) end up being too massive, the text is too tiny, or I have to scale up and basically have the same vertical space as 1080p 16:9 just with sharper text.
But the sharper text is the whole point. That's why I abandoned the idea of getting a 4k 43" monitor, the DPI is the same as on a FHD 22" one. Even a 32" is "pushing it", as in the DPI isn't that high.
However, note that not all text needs to be big. In my case I run a 4k screen at 100%, which allows me to have tiny title and toolbars, which means more actual space. I don't need the UI elements to be huge, and since I mostly use terminals and web browsers, adjusting the "content text" is enough. Of course, YMMV on Windows and Mac OS where you have to click a lot of buttons, so their being tiny might be an issue.
Of course, if for your use and / or preference "sharper text" doesn't matter, you can save a bunch of money by staying with lower-resolution screens and / or get a single giant one if that's your cup of tea.
But the sharper text is the whole point. That's why I abandoned the idea of getting a 4k 43" monitor, the DPI is the same as on a FHD 22" one. Even a 32" is "pushing it", as in the DPI isn't that high.
However, note that not all text needs to be big. In my case I run a 4k screen at 100%, which allows me to have tiny title and toolbars, which means more actual space. I don't need the UI elements to be huge, and since I mostly use terminals and web browsers, adjusting the "content text" is enough. Of course, YMMV on Windows and Mac OS where you have to click a lot of buttons, so their being tiny might be an issue.
Of course, if for your use and / or preference "sharper text" doesn't matter, you can save a bunch of money by staying with lower-resolution screens and / or get a single giant one if that's your cup of tea.
>The 32:9 "ultra-wide" 5120x1440 look pretty great, but in practice seem to have some challenges. As an example, you can't really do full screen sharing anymore because no one else can see it.
I only have a 21:9 ultrawide but this is definitely a drawback. I have a second monitor that is just 16:9 that is used for all of my screen sharing
I only have a 21:9 ultrawide but this is definitely a drawback. I have a second monitor that is just 16:9 that is used for all of my screen sharing
> the same vertical space as 1080p 16:9 just with sharper text
I work with text all day. I want it as sharp as I can get it.
I work with text all day. I want it as sharp as I can get it.
3440x1440 is 43:18, not 21:9.
Doesn't the display driver have an option to pretend to be 2 separate monitors?
games/videos on 3:2 is just huge black bars. Definitely not for extended gaming.
I used (and still have) the original Chromebook Pixel in my closet with a 3:2 screen. amazing for browsing documents, but YouTube videos always felt off.
I used (and still have) the original Chromebook Pixel in my closet with a 3:2 screen. amazing for browsing documents, but YouTube videos always felt off.
If I can ask, what is so bad about black bars? (For video that is, for a modern game it's inexcusable)
It's not a deal breaker; videos are just a mild inconvenience from the screen ratio. But if most of my usage is in media instead of documents, I'd prefer to utilize as much of the screen as possible.
My Pixel was mostly used as a portable school laptop for web browsing and development, so for those tasks it did a great job. But there was always that nagging feeling when viewing videos and seeing even more black bars on top/botton than even my 16:10 monitor at home.
My Pixel was mostly used as a portable school laptop for web browsing and development, so for those tasks it did a great job. But there was always that nagging feeling when viewing videos and seeing even more black bars on top/botton than even my 16:10 monitor at home.
If your primary use of a computer is for gaming or video playback, then 16:9 does seem the right choice. If that is your use case, having anything taller than 16:9 means all of those extra pixels will primarily only ever be displaying black. What's the point of that? If your primary use of a computer is anything but games/videos, then the occasional letterboxing is much less egregious. As a gamer, instead of paying for more pixels, that money can be spent on faster refresh. Less pixels also helps allow for faster refresh, etc.
At home with TVs, I'm okay with the letter boxing to watch 1.85,2.35 type content on my 1.78 screen. It's the trade off as making a movie buff 2.35 screen would force majority of 1.78 content to be window/pillar boxed.
At home with TVs, I'm okay with the letter boxing to watch 1.85,2.35 type content on my 1.78 screen. It's the trade off as making a movie buff 2.35 screen would force majority of 1.78 content to be window/pillar boxed.
> Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow.
By far the biggest selling point for me! I wouldn't even consider apple products for this reason.
By far the biggest selling point for me! I wouldn't even consider apple products for this reason.
Is the battery replaceable, though? The Surface Laptop 3 also had some repairable parts, but the big disappointment in my mind was the glued-in battery.[1] Batteries are consumable and are guaranteed to start wearing down within a few years, whereas the SSD, keyboard, monitor, etc. are likely to last a long time, so it was surprising that they advertised its repairability even with this significant omission.
I feel weird using my MacBook Pro, knowing it's essentially a ticking time bomb, with its slowly degrading battery that can't be replaced.
[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...
I feel weird using my MacBook Pro, knowing it's essentially a ticking time bomb, with its slowly degrading battery that can't be replaced.
[1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...
I worked in computer/phone repair and a bit of design,
You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells essentially taped together to make their "battery". This isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode. To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure they are all firmly in place [0].
From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space, and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their design. They could also use different tape that's easier to remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as something they don't want to be liable for people replacing (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution is a rigid shell for the batteries.
tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design instead though....
[0] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med...
[1] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...
You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells essentially taped together to make their "battery". This isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode. To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure they are all firmly in place [0].
From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space, and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their design. They could also use different tape that's easier to remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as something they don't want to be liable for people replacing (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution is a rigid shell for the batteries.
tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design instead though....
[0] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med...
[1] https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...
Yes, of course it’s a design Limitation or, as I‘d call it, trade-off. A very few conspiracy theorists may belief it’s “planned obsolescence”. But a model that just places a larger premium on thinness than HN professes to do is far better at explaining this and a number of similar decisions by all sorts of companies.
We have had countless corporate conspiracies for hundreds of years, from the Standard Oil collusion with railroads to remove competing oil companies, Automanufactureres conspiracy to remove streetcard, The Phoebus cartel limiting lightbulb longevity and FAANG anti-poaching agreement designed to depress developer salaries.
What the hell has to happen for you to realize corporations are not your friends and 'mah free market' becomes mafia without law enforcement.
What the hell has to happen for you to realize corporations are not your friends and 'mah free market' becomes mafia without law enforcement.
Hi. I’m an actual socialist. I think it’s also harmful to any cause limiting the power and harm of capitalism to treat all capitalists as if they have identical behavior and preferences. Apple is surely a giant corporation with several horrible business practices and undue power. But knowing how they behave is important. They’re often accused of tactics that their corporate peers engage, because the outcomes look similar. Planned obsolescence is one of the most common accusations. But they generally provide more support for device longevity in the spaces they compete.
They just don’t provide products full of modular junk. They mostly try not to serve the junk market altogether. And sure, that skews their prices higher, and limits what you can do after buying the device. But they’re serving mostly mid-high end markets who would rather pay more than repair or replace. People who voluntarily accept the limitations they place on their devices.
A better criticism of their place in the market is how they distort “externalities”. Manufacturing labor costs and treatment, mining impact. The places they are renowned for outplaying every competitor.
That’s where their abuse lies. They don’t care if you swap out a battery, they just don’t care if you can either. They care about offering consumer-luxury products no one else can. If you follow that money, it’s their supply chain who hurts, not their clientele.
They just don’t provide products full of modular junk. They mostly try not to serve the junk market altogether. And sure, that skews their prices higher, and limits what you can do after buying the device. But they’re serving mostly mid-high end markets who would rather pay more than repair or replace. People who voluntarily accept the limitations they place on their devices.
A better criticism of their place in the market is how they distort “externalities”. Manufacturing labor costs and treatment, mining impact. The places they are renowned for outplaying every competitor.
That’s where their abuse lies. They don’t care if you swap out a battery, they just don’t care if you can either. They care about offering consumer-luxury products no one else can. If you follow that money, it’s their supply chain who hurts, not their clientele.
Apple literally was caught using software upgrades to make older devices perform worse.
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay...
But this about more than just Apple. It is about corporates in general. I don't think a "corporates are evil" mantra explains everything - or even anything useful.
Product Designers are humans, CEOs are humans, all the employees are humans.(Unless ... Aliens ... :-) ) Some humans are better at whatever task than others, but all are operating under their motivational influences.
Get enough people together under one banner, someone will do something poor under that banner's name.
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/18/936268845/apple-agrees-to-pay...
But this about more than just Apple. It is about corporates in general. I don't think a "corporates are evil" mantra explains everything - or even anything useful.
Product Designers are humans, CEOs are humans, all the employees are humans.(Unless ... Aliens ... :-) ) Some humans are better at whatever task than others, but all are operating under their motivational influences.
Get enough people together under one banner, someone will do something poor under that banner's name.
> Apple literally was caught using software upgrades to make older devices perform worse.
...which if you bothered to read even the article you linked, you'd know had to do with ensuring that battery voltage wouldn't drop low enough for the device to randomly shut itself off, a result which itself became a problem due to the actual longevity of their devices.
You can certainly argue that they should have communicated this with their customers, though I'd argue that the vast majority would not notice nor care, while a lot more people would certainly notice their devices randomly shutting off.
...which if you bothered to read even the article you linked, you'd know had to do with ensuring that battery voltage wouldn't drop low enough for the device to randomly shut itself off, a result which itself became a problem due to the actual longevity of their devices.
You can certainly argue that they should have communicated this with their customers, though I'd argue that the vast majority would not notice nor care, while a lot more people would certainly notice their devices randomly shutting off.
More interesting is to look at what Google did for Nexus Phones with the same issue.
>If you're among those affected, your phone will randomly shut down and completely die, even though your battery indicator might have said you had plenty of juice left. It's not a simple system crash, because your phone will stay dead until you connect it to a charger
https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/nexus-6p-battery-random...
Instead of fixing the issue, Google's solution was to tell you to buy a new phone.
>If you're among those affected, your phone will randomly shut down and completely die, even though your battery indicator might have said you had plenty of juice left. It's not a simple system crash, because your phone will stay dead until you connect it to a charger
https://android.gadgethacks.com/news/nexus-6p-battery-random...
Instead of fixing the issue, Google's solution was to tell you to buy a new phone.
To paraphrase the original GP: "corporations can't be trusted"
My point was that Apple is a corporation and so deserves the same suspicion as all the rest.
You've just added another data point to "corporations can't be trusted". Yep, Google is a corporation and can't be trusted either.
My point was that Apple is a corporation and so deserves the same suspicion as all the rest.
You've just added another data point to "corporations can't be trusted". Yep, Google is a corporation and can't be trusted either.
Sorry, but there is quite a bit of difference between "we don't like the way you explained your fix for the issue" and "screw you, buy a new phone".
Reading articles isn't a problem.
Apples approach to "assuming everyone's device behaves the same way" (quotes because I don't honestly think any qualified engineer would make that assumption.) was wrong.
Some people use their phones less. My father doesn't turn his phone ON unless he wants to make a call.(Frustrating though that is...)
This makes a difference to battery performance as they don't just age out sitting in a box but through use as well. But here's Apple's take: https://www.apple.com/au/batteries/why-lithium-ion/
" For instance, you might use 75 per cent of your battery’s capacity one day, then recharge it fully overnight. If you use 25 per cent the next day, you will have discharged a total of 100 per cent, and the two days will add up to one charge cycle. It could take several days to complete a cycle. The capacity of any type of battery will diminish after a certain amount of recharging. "
Some people used their phone a lot and had batteries replaced - either through Apple or not.
And some human within Apple signed off on a solution to effectively make everyones older phone worse.
What else could they have done? Well, from my original NPR link: "Starting in 2018, iPhone users have been able to better control an iPhone's battery life and check on the health of the battery, along with allowing users to turn off iPhone battery throttling"
Make no mistake, Apple acted poorly. But they do better now. Whether that is because they were caught or not, we will never know.
I like many of the things Apple does. I have a lot of respect for their trailblazing. Screens seemed stuck in 1920x1080 hell until Apple unplugged screen development again.
But they are a corporation like any other and can't be trusted.
Apples approach to "assuming everyone's device behaves the same way" (quotes because I don't honestly think any qualified engineer would make that assumption.) was wrong.
Some people use their phones less. My father doesn't turn his phone ON unless he wants to make a call.(Frustrating though that is...)
This makes a difference to battery performance as they don't just age out sitting in a box but through use as well. But here's Apple's take: https://www.apple.com/au/batteries/why-lithium-ion/
" For instance, you might use 75 per cent of your battery’s capacity one day, then recharge it fully overnight. If you use 25 per cent the next day, you will have discharged a total of 100 per cent, and the two days will add up to one charge cycle. It could take several days to complete a cycle. The capacity of any type of battery will diminish after a certain amount of recharging. "
Some people used their phone a lot and had batteries replaced - either through Apple or not.
And some human within Apple signed off on a solution to effectively make everyones older phone worse.
What else could they have done? Well, from my original NPR link: "Starting in 2018, iPhone users have been able to better control an iPhone's battery life and check on the health of the battery, along with allowing users to turn off iPhone battery throttling"
Make no mistake, Apple acted poorly. But they do better now. Whether that is because they were caught or not, we will never know.
I like many of the things Apple does. I have a lot of respect for their trailblazing. Screens seemed stuck in 1920x1080 hell until Apple unplugged screen development again.
But they are a corporation like any other and can't be trusted.
The throttling of the cpu was tied directly to the health of the battery [1], not simply by the device you were using.
There is plenty of things to be critical of Apple and any corporation for and you don't need to spread misinformation in order to do so. You can even be critical about how they approached this, but your original claim that you doubled down on is simply false.
[1] https://twitter.com/_inside/status/942817814531969024
There is plenty of things to be critical of Apple and any corporation for and you don't need to spread misinformation in order to do so. You can even be critical about how they approached this, but your original claim that you doubled down on is simply false.
[1] https://twitter.com/_inside/status/942817814531969024
Your twitter link didn't shed much light for me on this particular issue but:
With yourself and a coincidental comment making such reasonable corrections I investigated further.
Posted below for posterity, not necessarily you.
The reddit post that started it all: https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7inu45/psa_iphone_s...
Finally, from the horses mouth:https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387
"iOS 11.3 and later improve this performance management feature"
and
"iPhone 8 and later use a more advanced hardware and software ..[snip].. As a result, the impacts of performance management may be less noticeable on iPhone 8 and later."
My conclusion: It is true that Apple was only targeting phones with dodgy(to a degree of approximation) batteries.
OTOH, Apple does a better job now. Both in execution and communication.
Whether Apple would have reached this achievement without batterygate is unknowable.
My apologies for spreading misinformation, thank you for your patience.
With yourself and a coincidental comment making such reasonable corrections I investigated further.
Posted below for posterity, not necessarily you.
The reddit post that started it all: https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7inu45/psa_iphone_s...
Finally, from the horses mouth:https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387
"iOS 11.3 and later improve this performance management feature"
and
"iPhone 8 and later use a more advanced hardware and software ..[snip].. As a result, the impacts of performance management may be less noticeable on iPhone 8 and later."
My conclusion: It is true that Apple was only targeting phones with dodgy(to a degree of approximation) batteries.
OTOH, Apple does a better job now. Both in execution and communication.
Whether Apple would have reached this achievement without batterygate is unknowable.
My apologies for spreading misinformation, thank you for your patience.
Another case of a lie--or misunderstanding due to reposting clickbait without engaging critical thinking--circumnavigating the globe at internet speed while the truth is still putting on its pants.
> Apple literally was caught using software upgrades to make older devices perform worse
You've literally just proved the point the parent comment was making.
The same outcome is not always equal to the same behaviour. The devices throttled themselves because worn batteries could not handle the sudden power spike needed by the CPU. You can very easily verify this by turning off the software fix on an affected phone—start pushing it and it literally just shuts off.
Apple still behaved deplorably here: as soon as this software kludge was triggered, it should have popped up a warning saying "hey your battery is no good, go get it replaced. Your phone will perform way slower in the meantime".
They undoubtedly sold more iPhones by not doing so. But they didn't slow down perfectly functional old phones, they slowed down phones which were effectively faulty.
You've literally just proved the point the parent comment was making.
The same outcome is not always equal to the same behaviour. The devices throttled themselves because worn batteries could not handle the sudden power spike needed by the CPU. You can very easily verify this by turning off the software fix on an affected phone—start pushing it and it literally just shuts off.
Apple still behaved deplorably here: as soon as this software kludge was triggered, it should have popped up a warning saying "hey your battery is no good, go get it replaced. Your phone will perform way slower in the meantime".
They undoubtedly sold more iPhones by not doing so. But they didn't slow down perfectly functional old phones, they slowed down phones which were effectively faulty.
I don't think I proved the parents case at all. I was supporting the idea that corporations can't be trusted.
Apple was held up as some kind of paragon exception to this. It isn't.
1. slowing devices without telling anyone what they were doing.
2. assuming all their older devices were in the same state or had the same use cases. Replaced your phone battery recently? Who cares, you go slow anyway.
The combination of 1+2 combined with a loyal fanbase (or trapped in the ecosystem depending on your views) does seem awfully suspicious regarding manipulated obsolescence and worth investigation.
The article linked has Apple losing a court case in this regard.
So the point still stands, don't trust corporations, including Apple.
If you want to say that Apple is better than other corporations. Well that is a different point. You still can't trust them.
Apple was held up as some kind of paragon exception to this. It isn't.
1. slowing devices without telling anyone what they were doing.
2. assuming all their older devices were in the same state or had the same use cases. Replaced your phone battery recently? Who cares, you go slow anyway.
The combination of 1+2 combined with a loyal fanbase (or trapped in the ecosystem depending on your views) does seem awfully suspicious regarding manipulated obsolescence and worth investigation.
The article linked has Apple losing a court case in this regard.
So the point still stands, don't trust corporations, including Apple.
If you want to say that Apple is better than other corporations. Well that is a different point. You still can't trust them.
> assuming all their older devices were in the same state or had the same use cases. Replaced your phone battery recently? Who cares, you go slow anyway
Sorry to be nitpicky, but this is actually not the case.
The whole reason this was initially discovered was because someone on reddit ran Geekbench before and after a battery replacement and got a huge performance increase. Not telling users is inexcusable, but phones where the battery was fully functional continued to run at full speed regardless of age.
> You still can't trust them
On this point I 100% agree!
Sorry to be nitpicky, but this is actually not the case.
The whole reason this was initially discovered was because someone on reddit ran Geekbench before and after a battery replacement and got a huge performance increase. Not telling users is inexcusable, but phones where the battery was fully functional continued to run at full speed regardless of age.
> You still can't trust them
On this point I 100% agree!
With yourself and a coincidental comment making such reasonable corrections I investigated further.
Posted below for posterity, not necessarily you.
The reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7inu45/psa_iphone_s...
Finally, from the horses mouth:https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387
"iOS 11.3 and later improve this performance management feature"
and
"iPhone 8 and later use a more advanced hardware and software ..[snip].. As a result, the impacts of performance management may be less noticeable on iPhone 8 and later."
My conclusion: It is true that Apple was only targeting phones with dodgy(to a degree of approximation) batteries.
OTOH, Apple does a better job now. Both in execution and communication.
Whether Apple would have reached this achievement without batterygate is unknowable.
My apologies for spreading misinformation, thank you for your patience.
Edit:snipped some bits for conciseness.
Posted below for posterity, not necessarily you.
The reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7inu45/psa_iphone_s...
Finally, from the horses mouth:https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387
"iOS 11.3 and later improve this performance management feature"
and
"iPhone 8 and later use a more advanced hardware and software ..[snip].. As a result, the impacts of performance management may be less noticeable on iPhone 8 and later."
My conclusion: It is true that Apple was only targeting phones with dodgy(to a degree of approximation) batteries.
OTOH, Apple does a better job now. Both in execution and communication.
Whether Apple would have reached this achievement without batterygate is unknowable.
My apologies for spreading misinformation, thank you for your patience.
Edit:snipped some bits for conciseness.
They didn't perform worse. It was a trade off between cpu performance and battery performance. They choose longer battery life over raw cpu performance. I think that's a valid tradeoff to make for a device that should last through the day on a single battery charge.
Worse is subjective, I accept.
Battery life vs speed vs reliability. Different people cut it different ways.
I think the issue was that everyone got the one solution without Apple telling them. So for a lot of people, it was perceived as worse.
Battery life vs speed vs reliability. Different people cut it different ways.
I think the issue was that everyone got the one solution without Apple telling them. So for a lot of people, it was perceived as worse.
None of that means that the battery design is planned obsolescence.
It could be that apple places a greater premium on thinness and that position just so happens to have as a byproduct early obsolescence and better profits. But I don't see why that's any more plausible than what you call conspiracy theories.
I'm looking at my GF, she's on the couch, watching an online uni lecture and writing Markdown on my 7yo MacBook Pro. Original battery, updated from Mavericks all the way to Big Sur. Runs fine, a few hours of battery life. My dad has a 2014 Mac Mini, currently on Catalina, runs fine. My sister's BF also has MacBook Pro that he's been abusing for the last six years. His battery is almost dead, but the machine itself runs fine. My ex-GF is still rocking her iPad Mini (the first retina model) that she bought in 2014. She loves the thing and the thing loves her back.
If Apple is in the business of early or planned obsolescence, they're fucking terrible at it.
If Apple is in the business of early or planned obsolescence, they're fucking terrible at it.
Planned obsolescence is not a conspiracy - it's a business decision.
From the company with industry leading support periods, device lifetimes and second hand value retention. If their intention is to deprecate devices early, they're objectively doing an incredibly terrible job at it.
Durability and cost are usually polar opposites.
I suppose planned obsolescence is not the best term to describe it however engineers do certainly factor in product lifetime (as much as they can) into their designs.
I suppose planned obsolescence is not the best term to describe it however engineers do certainly factor in product lifetime (as much as they can) into their designs.
[deleted]
Huh? The battery on every MacBook is replaceable
> Apple offers a battery replacement service for all MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebooks with built-in batteries.
https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/
A glued in battery on any laptop/tablet/phone is awful. My sister replaced her battery on her 2011 MacBook Air and used it just fine for a decade. Didn’t need to replace any of the other parts.
> Apple offers a battery replacement service for all MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro notebooks with built-in batteries.
https://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/
A glued in battery on any laptop/tablet/phone is awful. My sister replaced her battery on her 2011 MacBook Air and used it just fine for a decade. Didn’t need to replace any of the other parts.
The glue in a Macbook for the battery is wholly unnecessary when it can be pointed out that the argument for glue (waterproofing) doesn't even apply in their laptop space.
It's meant to make end user replacement of the battery as difficult as possible.
It's meant to make end user replacement of the battery as difficult as possible.
I would bet you good money it was driven by some sort of rel test (drop, vibration, etc.). Glue can be a lifesaver when the design isn't passing. No manufacturing engineer will want to add an adhesive step to the assembly just to make things more difficult for end users.
2014/2015 MBP - The battery rattles around inside if not glued in place. Sometimes it is needed.
> It's meant to make end user replacement of the battery as difficult as possible.
Any difficulty they add is additional difficulty for the thousands of Apple employees they hire to replace the batteries, so they definitely don't add it just to make it harder.
Any difficulty they add is additional difficulty for the thousands of Apple employees they hire to replace the batteries, so they definitely don't add it just to make it harder.
> Do you use your laptop in the rain ?
No but I use it next to glasses of water?
> Do you use your phone in the rain ?
When I have to. I walk my dog in a rainy city.
Edit: do you use your desktop in the rain? Maybe I’m missing a use case I don’t understand. Because so far we’ve ruled out any water-tolerance cases I can think of.
No but I use it next to glasses of water?
> Do you use your phone in the rain ?
When I have to. I walk my dog in a rainy city.
Edit: do you use your desktop in the rain? Maybe I’m missing a use case I don’t understand. Because so far we’ve ruled out any water-tolerance cases I can think of.
Water resistance =/= waterproofing.
Also, the keyboard and chassis in a Macbook are neither water resistant or waterproof.
Also, the keyboard and chassis in a Macbook are neither water resistant or waterproof.
> Water resistance =/= waterproofing.
I know that but don’t understand the point of distinguishing here. Waterproofing a battery achieves water resistance. In either case the claim was that it isn’t applicable for their portables.
> Also, the keyboard and chassis in a Macbook are neither water resistant or waterproof.
I’m still not understanding how this distinction matters. You claimed waterproofing wasn’t applicable to these devices. How does saying it’s not done well enough support that? Are you just arguing to argue?
I know that but don’t understand the point of distinguishing here. Waterproofing a battery achieves water resistance. In either case the claim was that it isn’t applicable for their portables.
> Also, the keyboard and chassis in a Macbook are neither water resistant or waterproof.
I’m still not understanding how this distinction matters. You claimed waterproofing wasn’t applicable to these devices. How does saying it’s not done well enough support that? Are you just arguing to argue?
Tell me why, in any circumstance, waterproofing a battery is where you'd stop.
You still need to waterproof the circuitry, the connectors, the components like the screen.
The original point was thus:
The argument for making a battery non-user-serviceable and glued into the device (as it is on the iPhones) was to retain waterproofing/water resistance.
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO MACBOOKS YET THE BATTERIES ARE STILL GLUED IN.
You still need to waterproof the circuitry, the connectors, the components like the screen.
The original point was thus:
The argument for making a battery non-user-serviceable and glued into the device (as it is on the iPhones) was to retain waterproofing/water resistance.
THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO MACBOOKS YET THE BATTERIES ARE STILL GLUED IN.
Okay I think I better understand your point but I think it’s just a logic error.
If I understand, you’re saying the inconsistency of waterproofing one part and not waterproofing others suggests insincerity of the stated waterproofing motivation for the battery.
There are two (related) things wrong with that reasoning:
1. It assumes that any kind of water protection must be holistic to be sincere. This rules out any notion of prioritized iteration. It’s like saying (sorry, car metaphor incoming) seatbelts aren’t a real safety measure because other parts of the car haven’t been revised for the same kinds of risks seatbelts prevent or mitigate.
2. The batteries we’re talking about are substantially more fire prone when exposed to water than the rest of the device. That alone justifies prioritizing water safety measures for the battery ahead of any other component.
If I understand, you’re saying the inconsistency of waterproofing one part and not waterproofing others suggests insincerity of the stated waterproofing motivation for the battery.
There are two (related) things wrong with that reasoning:
1. It assumes that any kind of water protection must be holistic to be sincere. This rules out any notion of prioritized iteration. It’s like saying (sorry, car metaphor incoming) seatbelts aren’t a real safety measure because other parts of the car haven’t been revised for the same kinds of risks seatbelts prevent or mitigate.
2. The batteries we’re talking about are substantially more fire prone when exposed to water than the rest of the device. That alone justifies prioritizing water safety measures for the battery ahead of any other component.
I’m confused. Why would water proofing be less applicable to a (or their) laptop products?
Keyboard and chassis isn't waterproof on Macbooks, thus, the common argument for glued in batteries on other Apple devices (iPhone) in that it aides with waterproofing is rendered moot when it comes to Macbooks.
I've replaced the batteries in a handful of iPhones over the years and it's never been particularly awkward. The glue is just enough to hold the battery firmly in place, it's never been a significant obstacle to replacement. I don't know about the laptops.
Exactly. At least Microsoft has courage.
Unlike Apple who seems to like to solder everything onto the board, such that to fix the SSD would require an entirely new logic board and a trip to the Apple Store.
That alone makes the Surface 4 'look' like a good deal, but at the price of $1000? No thanks and no deal (For now).
Unlike Apple who seems to like to solder everything onto the board, such that to fix the SSD would require an entirely new logic board and a trip to the Apple Store.
That alone makes the Surface 4 'look' like a good deal, but at the price of $1000? No thanks and no deal (For now).
It's super weird to see this phrased as "courage". I can understand the desiderata--"I want a user-servicable laptop" is entirely a reasonable position--but framing this narrative as "courageous" is bizarre. It's all a mix of branding and utility.
I was actually considering it a lack of courage: that Apple is so insecure and concerned with its own lack of or zero innovation in last decade or so that it forces its customers to keep buying costly new devices and keep getting costly repairs by means like making devices unrepairable (e.g. literally using a new pin configuration in every other MacBook SSD which are non standard to start with), making devices breakable (glass backs?) etc.
If anything, Apple's environmental impact and their advertising around it is a staggeringly courageous amount of bullshit considering how hard they make it to service, upgrade, and repurpose old devices.
I use my Apple devices for a substantially longer time than the alternative, so I would say I’ve probably consumed less.
I'm pretty sure they're referencing Apple saying it took "courage" to remove the iPhone's headphone jack.
And for my generation: the courage to ditch CD-ROM drives!
AFAIK, companies "having courage" has been a meme for a few years after Apple said it took great courage (or similar) to remove the headphone jack.
"Courage", as well as "A sense of pride and accomplishment" means different things now, because some presentations have given those words new life.
In the case of "Courage", Apple branded their decision to remove the headphone jack as "courageous".
"A sense of pride and accomplishment" is from the Battlefront video games, when marketers were talking about some features that either cost hundreds-of-dollars, or literally hundreds of hours of gameplay to unlock.
In the case of "Courage", Apple branded their decision to remove the headphone jack as "courageous".
"A sense of pride and accomplishment" is from the Battlefront video games, when marketers were talking about some features that either cost hundreds-of-dollars, or literally hundreds of hours of gameplay to unlock.
What is the new meaning of the word "courage" then? I presume it just means a decision other than the "safe" option. It's a bit melodramatic, perhaps, but not really a new definition. From an individual perspective, someone may have felt they were sticking their necks out and were in danger of hurting their career if the decision led to backlash and a reversal.
(Talking about the audio jack change, no idea how making easy-to-maintenance parts is not the safe choice).
(Talking about the audio jack change, no idea how making easy-to-maintenance parts is not the safe choice).
For one, courage is the mean between cowardice and recklessness. I.e., the pursuit of a good where the risk is rationally justifiable in proportion to the good.
Can't comment on whether the decision makers were being courageous or not in any way. Not sure any of us could.
Can't comment on whether the decision makers were being courageous or not in any way. Not sure any of us could.
[deleted]
Compared to the pricetag of Macbooks, $1000 is a great deal, no?
The $999 Air will outperform this most likely. Build quality will be similar
Really hoping that Jony Ive leaving will have a positive impact in regards to serviceability. Hopefully the blowback for their obsession with thinness was due to Ive.
> At least Microsoft has courage.
I see what you did there: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-pl...
I see what you did there: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-iphone-7-pl...
>At least Microsoft has courage.
Is this the same Microsoft whose original Surface Laptop got the lowest repairability score that iFixit has ever given?
>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” Ouch. That’s never happened before. The lowest scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
Is this the same Microsoft whose original Surface Laptop got the lowest repairability score that iFixit has ever given?
>According to iFixit, the Surface Laptop isn’t repairable at all. In fact, it got a 0 out of 10 for repairability and was labeled a “glue-filled monstrosity.” Ouch. That’s never happened before. The lowest scores previously were a 1 out of 10 for all previous iterations of the Surface Pro
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/251046-ifixit-labels-s...
Are you kidding me? SSD?
In 2012, 4-5 days after the purchase of my first and last MacBook Air, they gave me a quote that was half the price of the new MBA when a key cap just popped out. I literally was using it and it popped out.
Their reasoning: physical damage + (this is the kicker) in Air there’s no provision to repair the key or key cap, entire lower board/chassis needs to be replaced.
Yes just a key cap! I shouted to customer support. It was replaced. I decided I am not paying for another fruit company laptop. (In their defence they tried to pull this off in a country with pretty much no or no accessible consumer protection)
In 2012, 4-5 days after the purchase of my first and last MacBook Air, they gave me a quote that was half the price of the new MBA when a key cap just popped out. I literally was using it and it popped out.
Their reasoning: physical damage + (this is the kicker) in Air there’s no provision to repair the key or key cap, entire lower board/chassis needs to be replaced.
Yes just a key cap! I shouted to customer support. It was replaced. I decided I am not paying for another fruit company laptop. (In their defence they tried to pull this off in a country with pretty much no or no accessible consumer protection)
I'm having a hard time believing that. The 2012 Air keyboard is a normal scissor keyboard, there's only the keycap and the scissor plastic thingy beneath it, you can literally repair it with a bit of superglue if you're lucky.
Was it Apple who told you this? Or a 3rd party service center? A reseller? What country did they try to pull this off in?
Was it Apple who told you this? Or a 3rd party service center? A reseller? What country did they try to pull this off in?
Soldering "everything" is not specific to Apple.
But boy, the crowd here loves to harp on it though.
> no more absurdly large trackpad that has easy false positive when you are typing on it.
What are you doing to get those? I've never had issues with that, and I absolutely love the large trackpad on my MacBook
What are you doing to get those? I've never had issues with that, and I absolutely love the large trackpad on my MacBook
I think it is the wrong trade off.
>I’d still prefer a smaller trackpad to avoid accidental input. And it looks like the edges and indentation in front of the trackpad remain sharp, as if you aren’t supposed to put your hands near there [1] .
You are trading absolute best for some people at the expense or annoyance for some people. The older trackpad isn't small either.
Which is exactly the same thing with TouchBar and Keyboard.
Some loves the butterfly keyboard, but they dont hate the old scissors keyboard. There are lots of people who hated the butterfly.
[1] https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/11/14/the-16-inch-macbook-pro/
>I’d still prefer a smaller trackpad to avoid accidental input. And it looks like the edges and indentation in front of the trackpad remain sharp, as if you aren’t supposed to put your hands near there [1] .
You are trading absolute best for some people at the expense or annoyance for some people. The older trackpad isn't small either.
Which is exactly the same thing with TouchBar and Keyboard.
Some loves the butterfly keyboard, but they dont hate the old scissors keyboard. There are lots of people who hated the butterfly.
[1] https://mjtsai.com/blog/2019/11/14/the-16-inch-macbook-pro/
How big are your hands ? A significant number of people have issues and have had to change their typing style.
Couldn't disagree more. I've always had false positive issues with Apple's trackpads. The newer ones are slightly better in terms of accuracy, but they're so absurdly large that it still happens more often than it used to - and this is across 4+ macbooks and multiple generations, so it's not just a faulty model, and I'm not the only person I know with this issue.
Hard agree. OP seems a bit pedantic looking for bullet points. Personally the trackpad on this is pure downside.
I absolutely abhor 16:9 on laptops, one of the reasons why I'm using a macbook air is for the excellent 16:10 screen. If you go shopping for ordinary PC laptops in the $1000-1300 (USD) price range at a place like Best Buy and take a look at the quality of the LCDs, it's amazing how many absolutely shit 16:9 1920x1080 displays are being sold on machines at the same price as the macbook air's higher-dpi retina display.
16:9 on a desktop seems to be unavoidable these days, and indeed there's the whole popular trend of ultrawide/ultrawide-and-curved monitors now which go way beyond that.
16:9 on a desktop seems to be unavoidable these days, and indeed there's the whole popular trend of ultrawide/ultrawide-and-curved monitors now which go way beyond that.
I don't mind 16:9 so much as the incredibly poor choices for resolution and panel quality I'm faced with on most Windows laptops lately. It feels like TV salespeople took over and completely ignored what actually makes sense for a laptop.
1080p and 4K are both terrible choices for 13-14" screens, yet that's all you see anymore, and even on higher end models trying to get accurate info on panel quality and color accuracy is a nightmare.
1080p and 4K are both terrible choices for 13-14" screens, yet that's all you see anymore, and even on higher end models trying to get accurate info on panel quality and color accuracy is a nightmare.
I'm curious: why do you care about aspect ratio vs. (effective) resolution? Seems like an odd thing to focus on, when it has nothing to do with how much stuff you can display on screen. Do you mean at comparable sizes?
I care about both simultaneously - in my experience the common 1920x1080 laptop panels also have poor color rendition, poor brightness and overall image quality, in addition to not being a suitable dpi. I can see the blockiness and jagginess in fonts and GUI at 1920x1080 native.
And scrolling vertically for anything is painful on a small 16:9 screen. The macbook happens to have both 16:10 aspect ratio and a higher quality LCD.
And scrolling vertically for anything is painful on a small 16:9 screen. The macbook happens to have both 16:10 aspect ratio and a higher quality LCD.
But lower resolution than a 4k 16:9 display (and no oled). So the question is why to prefer lower res 16:10 (lower in both directions) to 16:9? You just have strictly more screen, which seems better.
4k gets you sharper text but the distance of the display away from you makes for diminishing returns in sharpness combined with horrific battery life and still 16:9. The macbook is very much a happy middle for normal use but I'm sure a Samsung Galaxy Book 4K is the best movie laptop ever
I was comparing laptops in the price range mentioned above, MacBook air vs 1080p laptops. If you go up to around $2000, then the windows 10 laptops start to have 4k screens.
> Surface Connect - Is that Microsoft version of MagSafe?
Basically. I was disappointed to see it on my 2nd or 3rd generation. I thought we were past the days of proprietary connectors.
Basically. I was disappointed to see it on my 2nd or 3rd generation. I thought we were past the days of proprietary connectors.
The Surface connector is fine, and has the added benefit of being magnetic, unlike any other connector available. For basic charging it’s very easy to get a USBC to Surface Connect cable, or if you really want you can use the USBC port directly for charging. The magnetics really make a difference in portability and I would not want to give it up.
The video mentions that the Surface 4 USB-C port allows charging, which is great.
The Surface Laptop 3 supports it as well. The proprietary Surface connector needs to go away. I've had Surface devices for years, so I have plenty of the chargers around - and I hate them. They fall out, they break, they die. My Surface Dock lasted less than a year before its connector wouldn't connect again.
I'm disappointed they've still stuck with it. I'd MUCH rather have another USB-C port on the other side so I could charge it from either direction. I carry around a USB-C charger that charges all of my devices. I never want to have to carry around a proprietary brick again.
I'm disappointed they've still stuck with it. I'd MUCH rather have another USB-C port on the other side so I could charge it from either direction. I carry around a USB-C charger that charges all of my devices. I never want to have to carry around a proprietary brick again.
Sort of. It includes the ability to hook up to a docking station and pass USB, video, and Ethernet through the plug.
I use the dock for my Surface Book. With the dedicated GPU it comfortably drives two extra screens through the dock. If you don’t plan on using the dock though, it’s just another proprietary power plug.
I use the dock for my Surface Book. With the dedicated GPU it comfortably drives two extra screens through the dock. If you don’t plan on using the dock though, it’s just another proprietary power plug.
Out of curiosity, what's your monitor resolution? I had some issues driving 2 4k screens with the surface dock, but 2k is working okay.
It’s driving two 1920x1200 displays. Then again I’m also using a first gen Surface Book and first gen dock, so this was well before 4K displays were becoming common.
A bad proprietary connector at that. The device side has failed on me a few times, requiring replacements. After about a year the connector needs to be pulled at just the right angle to charge the device. It would slowly get worse until I couldn't get it to make a connection at all.
I'm sure the issue is that I have it plugged in while it's on my lap a lot of the time, but barrel plugs and USB-C have not given me any issues under the same conditions.
I'm sure the issue is that I have it plugged in while it's on my lap a lot of the time, but barrel plugs and USB-C have not given me any issues under the same conditions.
Just wipe it down with a bit of alcohol (while unplugged from the wall of course). I’ve found the connector tends to wear from “sparking” when connecting and disconnecting and gets a thin layer of carbon on it.
They kept this one for a few generations now/across a few models.
I wish they made it open.
I wish they made it open.
Not entirely accurate. It's a dock connector, not just power. The $160 USD dock gives you two more USB-C display adapters, two USB-C ports, 2 USB-A ports, an ethernet port and 170W (if I recall) adapter. It's big but incredibly useful for a desktop dock. Slip one reversable magnetic connector in and you've got all your accessories out of the box. If you just want to charge, USB-C is fine.
I actually feel cramped on 3:2. It's great if I maximize one window, but as soon as I try to split the width between two windows, everything is too narrow. It's especially bad when the windows are Firefox with Tree Style Tab and an IDE with a project navigation pane.
Wouldn't this depend on how the ratio is achieved?
For example, with 16:9 → 16:10, you're often just gaining some vertical pixels (like 1920x1080 vs 1920x1200), so everything that was comfortable on 16:9 is equally workable on 16:10.
For example, with 16:9 → 16:10, you're often just gaining some vertical pixels (like 1920x1080 vs 1920x1200), so everything that was comfortable on 16:9 is equally workable on 16:10.
Yes it does depend on that, but usually there's some width lost for the gained height. You don't even need to measure it against another display to know that's the case. If you only add pixels to the top of a display, the diagonal size will increase. So if the display isn't any larger then it means that the horizontal size of the screen was reduced. That of course also means that each pixel is smaller. Depending on how much smaller, you might need to scale everything on the display up which has the same effect on fitting things in as having fewer pixels.
Yeah I’ve maximized my use of a wide screen. Dock on the side and tree style tabs is the way to go IMO.
> Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow.
I realize that making a replaceable battery is not easy this days, but I would like to see manufacturers at least not make it absurdly hard to replace. Here's hoping MS didn't use too much glue and tape to secure the battery in place on the Surface Laptop 4...
I realize that making a replaceable battery is not easy this days, but I would like to see manufacturers at least not make it absurdly hard to replace. Here's hoping MS didn't use too much glue and tape to secure the battery in place on the Surface Laptop 4...
In what sense is it "not easy these days"? The Panasonic "Let's Note" series (Japan only) has had models with two batteries -- one internal, and one removable (hot-swappable) that you could charge with USB while the laptop keeps running on the main battery. I'm not sure why our imagination for laptops is so limited.
I mean that many laptops (especially thin ones) have batteries glued in. For modern form factors, an easily removable battery is a no-go, I get that. But there are things designers can do to make replacing the battery easier or harder. Making the housing very difficult to take apart, using lots of glue, etc. should be avoided. If at least a technician (like people who repair phones) can easily replace a battery in a few minutes, this will extend the lifespan of laptops.
Lenovo did that for a while. I believe they called it Power Bridge.
Have you seen the internals of a Macbook? There is no single battery, it's a few batteries (wired in series I believe)[0]
Making the battery removable would compromise on other parts of the design. Personally, a replaceable battery is very low on my list of wants.
[0] https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-...
Making the battery removable would compromise on other parts of the design. Personally, a replaceable battery is very low on my list of wants.
[0] https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Retina-...
Having irreplaceable batteries makes your device have a very short lifespan. This is horrible for the environment. I'm typing this on a pixel 1 that I've replaced the battery in, and have used for 4+ years.
Laptops should have replaceable batteries. Period. If you get a new laptop every 2 years and don't know what it's like to have a perfectly good MacBook with 30minutes of battery life, then maybe you can just imagine being in that position and consider how globally impactful this anti consumer practice is.
Laptops should have replaceable batteries. Period. If you get a new laptop every 2 years and don't know what it's like to have a perfectly good MacBook with 30minutes of battery life, then maybe you can just imagine being in that position and consider how globally impactful this anti consumer practice is.
> perfectly good MacBook with 30minutes of battery life
What the heck, all MacBook batteries are replaceable! Apple will do it for you in the first 6 years or so, and after that there are still 3rd party shops who will happily replace it.
What the heck, all MacBook batteries are replaceable! Apple will do it for you in the first 6 years or so, and after that there are still 3rd party shops who will happily replace it.
> Ignoring the Software, this Laptop looks exceptionally good!
Paying attention to the software, WSL2 is one of the most convenient ways to run nix. No more messing with homebrew, you get real apt-get (and the breadth of packages and speed of updates that come from running real Ubuntu or Debian) or whatever else you want.
Paying attention to the software, WSL2 is one of the most convenient ways to run nix. No more messing with homebrew, you get real apt-get (and the breadth of packages and speed of updates that come from running real Ubuntu or Debian) or whatever else you want.
I really need to read up more on WSL2, but I'm on a windows box so rarely I haven't spent the cycles on it. However, every single time I am on a windows box, I really wish I had it setup for WSL2. Every other box I connect to has essentially the same CLI features, until those rare times I hit a windows box. <shudder>
I had a Surface Pro for a few years, it ran GNOME like a champ. These Windows laptops also have pretty good Linux support afaik, so the software issue isn't that big of a deal!
It's the other way around: Linux has some extra support for these laptops. And of course the place where extra support is required is the input devices. Despite Microsoft kinda pushing the industry to standardize on HID over I2C, they themselves now do HID over… uh… a custom protocol that runs over UART of all things.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/driver-api/surface_ag...
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/hid/hid.git/...
Well at least it is HID inside I guess.
Meanwhile Apple used a custom simple protocol over SPI for the Broadwell-Kaby Lake generations (and now Apple Silicon), but the few "T2" generations went back to USB… over some truly cursed custom T2 USB host controller https://github.com/MCMrARM/mbp2018-bridge-drv (WTF)
---
Also many Surface devices used awful Marvell Wi-Fi :/ At least the "Laptop 3" generation switched to Intel on Intel models and Qualcomm (seems like ath10k) on AMD ones.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/driver-api/surface_ag...
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/hid/hid.git/...
Well at least it is HID inside I guess.
Meanwhile Apple used a custom simple protocol over SPI for the Broadwell-Kaby Lake generations (and now Apple Silicon), but the few "T2" generations went back to USB… over some truly cursed custom T2 USB host controller https://github.com/MCMrARM/mbp2018-bridge-drv (WTF)
---
Also many Surface devices used awful Marvell Wi-Fi :/ At least the "Laptop 3" generation switched to Intel on Intel models and Qualcomm (seems like ath10k) on AMD ones.
I remember those kernel patches fondly.
Is there a Ubuntu image that supports SL4?
(Microsoft has still not yet released one for SL3, to the best of my knowledge.)
(Microsoft has still not yet released one for SL3, to the best of my knowledge.)
I was never happy with this. It's fine if you use it as a laptop, but the pen input was laggy, the OSK was finnicky, and there's no OneNote equivalent on Linux.
Replying to the question about the surface connect. Yes, it's a magnetic charger that includes USB, display, and a few other wires. It's awesome.
Former surface firmware engineer, opinions are my own.
Former surface firmware engineer, opinions are my own.
On the dock front, I recommend putting it on the left for a 16:10 display.
I almost never use the dock on the bottom anymore. I find this a lot more useful, and it fits with the aspect ratio of the screens that are being shipped.
I almost never use the dock on the bottom anymore. I find this a lot more useful, and it fits with the aspect ratio of the screens that are being shipped.
Best solution is to just have the dock hidden.
I've been playing with the option in macOS to hide the menu bar as well. The extra screen space is significant to me. The one draw back is that I have a habit of glancing up at the clock from time to time. Now, that's hidden, and I find myself totally losing track of time. Not such a big deal now for WFH, but I do spend more time on things than I would if the clock were still in view. Other than that, I don't miss the menu bar either.
On the left and hidden. Code and English documents are top-left biased, so this position means as well as being near the menu bar it's typically closer to your pointer position than the bottom is. Also, I like to add my Application folder to the dock as a more-compact replacement for Launchpad.
> Instead Apple went to 1.0mm Key travel in their magic keyboard just to save face
I never got used to butterfly keyboard, even though I had one for more than 2 years. The new ones might not be the same as the old school, but feel amazing from the get go.
I never got used to butterfly keyboard, even though I had one for more than 2 years. The new ones might not be the same as the old school, but feel amazing from the get go.
Is there a Linux distribution for it? Because I'm not putting up with Windows.
This is the most important question. This thing is a toy for me unless it can run Linux on metal.
> the old perfect MacBook Scissors Keyboard
No way, the unibody MacBook Pro (2008-2011) had the perfect keyboard. I still have my 17”. The Retina’s keyboard was a painful downgrade that I never got used to.
No way, the unibody MacBook Pro (2008-2011) had the perfect keyboard. I still have my 17”. The Retina’s keyboard was a painful downgrade that I never got used to.
> Surface Connect - Is that Microsoft version of MagSafe?
Yes & No; its Microsoft's proprietary version of Thunderbolt 3, which does have magnetic connect/disconnect.
Yes & No; its Microsoft's proprietary version of Thunderbolt 3, which does have magnetic connect/disconnect.
All of these things are nice, but they're easier to throw in than improving the operating system, and that's the biggest differentiator.
Surface Connect is a lot more than just MagSafe. It’s much more akin to thunderbolt with a magnetic plug. It combines power delivery and data transfer so you can power the laptop or plug in a full docking station using the same port. Sure it’s proprietary but I wish it was more widely adopted.
> And then Browsers address bar, tab bar,
Edgium now allows the browser tab to be a vertical column, rather than a horizontal row, which is nice. I hope other browsers copy that.
Edgium now allows the browser tab to be a vertical column, rather than a horizontal row, which is nice. I hope other browsers copy that.
Laptop vertical space is why I always setup my docks on the left or right. And one of the reasons I still use Firefox
Tree Style Tab even though Mozilla keeps making it harder and harder to use.
3:2 and 16:10 are very very close.
3:2 is 15:10. It’s a pretty big deal, almost as big as going from 16:9 to 16:10
More vertical space is a win in my book.
More vertical space is a win in my book.
If only they hadn't done away with 4:3:
Also, if one is complaining about the dock, move it to the side.
>>> 4/3
1.3333333333333333
>>> 3/2
1.5
>>> 16/10
1.6
>>> 16/9
1.7777777777777777
Also, if one is complaining about the dock, move it to the side.
My portrait monitor is 5:4 (or rather 4:5), which at 1.25 is a very generous area. Especially if using it to display content in A4, which has an aspect ratio of ~1.4 (it’s actually sqrt(2))
I (literally) went the opposite direction with a 32:9 monitor. I guess everyone's got their preferences!
It absolutely make sense to have 16:9 or even 21:9 on a Desktop.
On a Laptop it is different though.
On a Laptop it is different though.
If big enough and hi-res enough, it could be doable.
Also if you often do multiple things at once.
I find most of the time, I'm looking at one or two long documents (web page, source code) and running shells on my landscape laptop monitor so the combo works perfectly for me.
Also if you often do multiple things at once.
I find most of the time, I'm looking at one or two long documents (web page, source code) and running shells on my landscape laptop monitor so the combo works perfectly for me.
I'm usually gaming (immersion is better in superwide) or I'm writing code (more real estate for uncollapsed visual studio windows) or browsing the web with netflix etc snapped to the side.
However I must note that superwide monitors are absolutely unusable in windows without PowerToys FancyZones functionality.
However I must note that superwide monitors are absolutely unusable in windows without PowerToys FancyZones functionality.
3:2 is 16:10.667
Is it giving more vertical space, or taking away horizontal space? A 16:9 screen would be fine if it had the same vertical resolution as the 3:2 screens. In that case you work off the center of the screen and put various gadget items to either side. Or for the larger screen laptops that include a number keypad, put your workspace on the left 80% and things like your Slack / chat and email notifications on the right side.
Actually come to think of it, a perfect window manager would be something that allows for overlapping windows in the central region, and lets you have adjustable left/right regions as tiling window areas. Combined with something that can tell an application which region it is in, so it can adjust the interface (optionally) to fit that region's purpose and limitations.
Actually come to think of it, a perfect window manager would be something that allows for overlapping windows in the central region, and lets you have adjustable left/right regions as tiling window areas. Combined with something that can tell an application which region it is in, so it can adjust the interface (optionally) to fit that region's purpose and limitations.
I'll be skipping this and future MS hardware for a while.
Using a Surface Laptop 3 right now and everything except for the display is pretty much a dumpster fire. The display hardware is incredible in every way. 3:2 is the correct aspect ratio for laptops if you care about running visual studio or other apps which gobble up vertical real estate.
I have reloaded this thing from official image 3x and it will still randomly fuck up important things like hardware accelerated video playback and WiFi, both of which require a hard reset to resolve. There is also some really annoying bullshit with the ambient brightness adjustment feature where I have to manually disable it in the registry every time a driver or windows update hits.
The most painful problem with the machine is that WiFi is entirely unusable if you are simultaneously using bluetooth. I have had to get external dongles to resolve this.
All of that said, I have had few-to-no issues with the Surface Pro product line at work, and my sample size is 1. Might be bad luck or just really demanding expectations. I have been debating going back to Apple, but there are some HP/Asus machines that look compelling now.
Using a Surface Laptop 3 right now and everything except for the display is pretty much a dumpster fire. The display hardware is incredible in every way. 3:2 is the correct aspect ratio for laptops if you care about running visual studio or other apps which gobble up vertical real estate.
I have reloaded this thing from official image 3x and it will still randomly fuck up important things like hardware accelerated video playback and WiFi, both of which require a hard reset to resolve. There is also some really annoying bullshit with the ambient brightness adjustment feature where I have to manually disable it in the registry every time a driver or windows update hits.
The most painful problem with the machine is that WiFi is entirely unusable if you are simultaneously using bluetooth. I have had to get external dongles to resolve this.
All of that said, I have had few-to-no issues with the Surface Pro product line at work, and my sample size is 1. Might be bad luck or just really demanding expectations. I have been debating going back to Apple, but there are some HP/Asus machines that look compelling now.
As a counter point, I love my Surface Laptop 3 as my personal device.
I had a pre-M1 MacBook Air for when I'm not working and I hated its fans constantly whirring and the industrial design that hadn't been updated in years.
I dived deep into different Windows laptops having spent 10+ years away and been really pleased with the purchase. The design is very simple, aspect ratio great, and the keyboard better than the Mac I was transitioning from.
I didn't like the Dell XPS's keyboard or display, and I tried the Razer Blade Stealth 13 but it was overkill.
Having not really used Windows for years and given that lots of Windows laptops still had shockingly cheap industrial design or weird quirks (webcam at the bottom?!), the Surface Laptop 3 was unfussy and a delight to use.
I had a pre-M1 MacBook Air for when I'm not working and I hated its fans constantly whirring and the industrial design that hadn't been updated in years.
I dived deep into different Windows laptops having spent 10+ years away and been really pleased with the purchase. The design is very simple, aspect ratio great, and the keyboard better than the Mac I was transitioning from.
I didn't like the Dell XPS's keyboard or display, and I tried the Razer Blade Stealth 13 but it was overkill.
Having not really used Windows for years and given that lots of Windows laptops still had shockingly cheap industrial design or weird quirks (webcam at the bottom?!), the Surface Laptop 3 was unfussy and a delight to use.
> or weird quirks (webcam at the bottom?!),
whoa!! what? i can't believe that someone did that, but then, yes I can. i guess that's useful if you have to look at the keyboard while typing. in that case, the bottom based cam is just a glance up???
whoa!! what? i can't believe that someone did that, but then, yes I can. i guess that's useful if you have to look at the keyboard while typing. in that case, the bottom based cam is just a glance up???
Dell XPS has (or had, not checked) the covid-test-webcam.
Fortunately, the new XPS put the camera back in the correct spot. It’s got a good display, but hate the ratio.
That's so true! A third of the view it gets is the underside of your face and nose and the rest is the ceiling.
I have this XPS and use an external webcam when I need one.
I have this XPS and use an external webcam when I need one.
Lenovo Legion Y540 also did this. I was using that laptop last spring when we switched to WFH... didn't last long! Ended up moving to my desktop and using a dedicated webcam before long.
Fortunately, the replacement Lenovo Legion 5 moves the webcam back to the top.
Fortunately, the replacement Lenovo Legion 5 moves the webcam back to the top.
Likewise I've wanted one for a long time but at this rate will probably never come to pass. One reason are the reportedly weird but very persistent bugs as OP mentioned.
Bigger reason is uncertainty about the Windows platform. ChromeOS and macOS both run mobile apps, which bring a vast library and a level of integration (especially macOS + iOS) that seems increasingly hard to overlook. Add to this Microsoft's goal of switching to ARM and fragmenting its ecosystem, it becomes an even harder buy.
In general, the Surface lineup seems to be ~1 year behind in hardware compared to the rest of the industry, e.g. only now switching to TigerLake and Ryzen 4000 series CPU. Hardware itself is well packaged but a hard sell for its premium price. Furthermore Microsoft is delusional to sell RAM and SSD upgrades from 8GB to 16GB and 256GB to 512GB respectively for +$200.
Bigger reason is uncertainty about the Windows platform. ChromeOS and macOS both run mobile apps, which bring a vast library and a level of integration (especially macOS + iOS) that seems increasingly hard to overlook. Add to this Microsoft's goal of switching to ARM and fragmenting its ecosystem, it becomes an even harder buy.
In general, the Surface lineup seems to be ~1 year behind in hardware compared to the rest of the industry, e.g. only now switching to TigerLake and Ryzen 4000 series CPU. Hardware itself is well packaged but a hard sell for its premium price. Furthermore Microsoft is delusional to sell RAM and SSD upgrades from 8GB to 16GB and 256GB to 512GB respectively for +$200.
> Bigger reason is uncertainty about the Windows platform.
Of all platforms to be worried about, I feel like Windows is the last one here (Web aside perhaps). It wouldn't be unreasonable to try running a program from Windows XP era and have it run fine in Windows 10.
As for the ARM fragmentation, fair enough but doesn't macOS face the same challenge? Windows 10 on Arm also supports running x86 apps without recompiling too.
Of all platforms to be worried about, I feel like Windows is the last one here (Web aside perhaps). It wouldn't be unreasonable to try running a program from Windows XP era and have it run fine in Windows 10.
As for the ARM fragmentation, fair enough but doesn't macOS face the same challenge? Windows 10 on Arm also supports running x86 apps without recompiling too.
You're right in that Windows will still be a viable platform for the lifespan of this laptop. My point was simply there are legitimate competitors now, especially due to their leveraging of mobile app libraries.
Right now it seems Apple has a better track record when it comes to the risk of ARM fragmentation - bolstered by their Rosetta translator is pretty good and the M1 hardware. For comparison, the Surface Pro X just received x64 emulation but its performance remains generally poor (not helped by the Qualcomm SQ1 SOC).
Right now it seems Apple has a better track record when it comes to the risk of ARM fragmentation - bolstered by their Rosetta translator is pretty good and the M1 hardware. For comparison, the Surface Pro X just received x64 emulation but its performance remains generally poor (not helped by the Qualcomm SQ1 SOC).
Yeah, the Surface Laptop 3 was on the list of my considerations a couple months ago because it checked most of my boxes, but reports of odd problems (like those you've mentioned) along with a common hairline screen crack problem pushed me to buy a ThinkPad instead.
I love my ThinkPad X1 extreme. I just threw manjaro on it this morning. Other than 2m of frustration thinking I can’t make a bootable usb stick and realising I need to disable secure boot, it works amazingly well.
Strangely enough tho it says my battery is 87% good. Tho the laptop is like 3 years old now.
Strangely enough tho it says my battery is 87% good. Tho the laptop is like 3 years old now.
I'm running Arch on mine, 2.5 years old, everything works fine, and I love it. I get dells at work, and also have a mbp, but no contest - surface laptop 3 is the bar for me.
UI for the automatic brightness adjustment setting is finally coming soon: https://twitter.com/DirectX12/status/1379911777849237508?s=2...
I agree that it’s incredibly bad (and I generally like Surface devices otherwise).
I agree that it’s incredibly bad (and I generally like Surface devices otherwise).
> The most painful problem with the machine is that WiFi is entirely unusable if you are simultaneously using bluetooth.
Wouldn't that be a problem of Windows itself? For me bluetooth has been a mess on every Windows machine. It's a miracle if something works and to get something working you even need to buy a dongle with a specific chip on it...
Wouldn't that be a problem of Windows itself? For me bluetooth has been a mess on every Windows machine. It's a miracle if something works and to get something working you even need to buy a dongle with a specific chip on it...
When you have good Bluetooth hardware, modern Windows versions seem to be pretty good with Bluetooth. Playing back on Bluetooth speakers or having Bluetooth mice or game pads seems to work pretty well. The most frustrating part is the issue of switching between Headset Profile and A2DP with bluetooth headsets. That always seems like a nightmare and prone to lots of frustrations.
I've definitely experienced what a bad Bluetooth adapter on Windows is like though. Things just failing to pair for no apparent reason, things randomly disconnecting, the thing seeming to forget all previous pairings, etc. I think that's usually been due to poor drivers. Earlier versions of Windows didn't really have much Bluetooth support out of the box, most of the stuff seemed to be implemented by each hardware vendor at the time. Compatibility issues were so common. This has largely seemed to go away especially when using modern Intel WiFi/BT chips and modern Windows.
I've definitely experienced what a bad Bluetooth adapter on Windows is like though. Things just failing to pair for no apparent reason, things randomly disconnecting, the thing seeming to forget all previous pairings, etc. I think that's usually been due to poor drivers. Earlier versions of Windows didn't really have much Bluetooth support out of the box, most of the stuff seemed to be implemented by each hardware vendor at the time. Compatibility issues were so common. This has largely seemed to go away especially when using modern Intel WiFi/BT chips and modern Windows.
I had one Asus laptop that required me to occasionally toggle Bluetooth off and on again to reconnect my mouse. The rest of my laptops and my desktop's USB Bluetooth dongle have worked without issue for my mice and headphones. I don't think it's a common issue, but I'm just one person!
Bluetooth and Wi-Fi work together with no issues on my ThinkPad X1 Extreme. I'm using Wi-Fi on 5GHz. Haven't tried it on 2.4GHz; I imagine there could be more potential for interference there.
I mostly use Bluetooth with Apple AirPods. I tried running Ubuntu on the ThinkPad but it had the same problem I've seen on other Linux machines: the AirPods would only pair as headphones, not as a full headset with microphone.
I like Windows better anyway on the hardware, especially its support for different scaling factors on multiple monitors. So I run Linux in a VM or use WSL2.
I mostly use Bluetooth with Apple AirPods. I tried running Ubuntu on the ThinkPad but it had the same problem I've seen on other Linux machines: the AirPods would only pair as headphones, not as a full headset with microphone.
I like Windows better anyway on the hardware, especially its support for different scaling factors on multiple monitors. So I run Linux in a VM or use WSL2.
With the AX200 [0], I've had absolutely no problem using both WiFi and BT simultaneously.
As with all things tho, YMMV.
0: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/189347/...
As with all things tho, YMMV.
0: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/189347/...
Anecdote here, but I'm on a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Extreme, and I've never had any issues with the Bluetooth (or WiFi), or either, simultaneously.
I have, because I’m really stupid and bought a ax200 card from Amazon that apparently didn’t have BT on it... bought another one and it works totally fine.
I don't own a Surface laptop, but my sister bought a Surface Pro (2 or 3, I'm not sure) a couple of years ago. She has already replaced the original charging adapters twice. The batteries also don't work unless they are plugged in. I think she also complains about wifi connectivity issues.
I thought Surface devices are built well, but after seeing my sister struggle with her Surface Pro, I have decided to not take the risk.
I thought Surface devices are built well, but after seeing my sister struggle with her Surface Pro, I have decided to not take the risk.
I have had a Laptop 3 for a while and haven't had most of these problems (I'm frequently using a bluetooth xbox controller + airpods pro + wifi on it). The ambient brightness thing is so goddamn annoying though! It's not an MS thing specifically (I know Dell XPS has it at least, too) but it is just the absolute worst.
Sorry to hear that. I've had a Surface Book, SB2, SB3, and looking forward to Surface Book 4 and Duo 2. The moment I got my original Surface Book, I felt like it was "the future" of laptops. I know the price tag puts a lot of people off, but it's essentially a tablet and a laptop in one device.
Not sure I could live without mine.
Not sure I could live without mine.
My Surface Book 2 is one of the purchases I regret the most.
The tablet mode is decent, although a USB port would have been nice. The display is fantastic, although a bit too reflective.
Using the machine is another story, battery life isn’t as exceptional as it’s made out to be, and it’s slow (even web browsing on Edge or Chrome is janky on anything other than “Better performance” mode).
Maybe the SB3 is better but the 2 has put me off.
The tablet mode is decent, although a USB port would have been nice. The display is fantastic, although a bit too reflective.
Using the machine is another story, battery life isn’t as exceptional as it’s made out to be, and it’s slow (even web browsing on Edge or Chrome is janky on anything other than “Better performance” mode).
Maybe the SB3 is better but the 2 has put me off.
> I have reloaded this thing from official image 3x and it will still randomly fuck up important things like hardware accelerated video playback and WiFi
Using a Surface Laptop 3 to write this, have had it since it came out (I guess maybe a little under a year now?). It's one of the most reliable laptops I've ever used.
Using a Surface Laptop 3 to write this, have had it since it came out (I guess maybe a little under a year now?). It's one of the most reliable laptops I've ever used.
>hardware accelerated video playback
Is this the same issue that I'm having where video and audio become increasingly out of sync as playback continues?
Is this the same issue that I'm having where video and audio become increasingly out of sync as playback continues?
I have only noticed sync issues on a few live streams. Never on any local media.
My issue is that the video is completely black (or green in VLC). Disabling hardware acceleration resolves, but then it runs like garbage and cant resize with high quality interpolation.
My issue is that the video is completely black (or green in VLC). Disabling hardware acceleration resolves, but then it runs like garbage and cant resize with high quality interpolation.
The AMD versions are much cheaper, and have longer battery life:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-4/946627fb1...
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-4/946627fb1...
Up to 19 hours of battery life on 13.5” with AMD Ryzen™ Microsoft Surface® Edition processor
Up to 17 hours of battery life on 13.5” with Intel® Core™ processor
Up to 17.5 hours of battery life on 15” with AMD Ryzen™ Microsoft Surface® Edition processor
Up to 16.5 hours of battery life on 15” with Intel® Core™ processor
If the past Surface Laptop's are to be our reference then expect 30% less than the numbers stated by Microsoft.
Isn't that pretty much SOP for most laptop battery duration marketing?
Microsoft seem to be exaggerate more than Dell, HP, Lenovo and Apple in my experience.
Shockingly with the M1 Apple's battery life claims were quite conservative. I have been able to get an hour longer than Apple's claims without having to resort to any extreme measures.
Shockingly with the M1 Apple's battery life claims were quite conservative. I have been able to get an hour longer than Apple's claims without having to resort to any extreme measures.
My M1 Air tends to get 7-8 hours of "real world" use (when configured with all of the programs I have on my Thinkpad). Considering that my Thinkpad gets 5-6 hours, with a better screen/GPU/keyboard to boot, I don't reach for the Macbook as often as I'd like. Especially when I'm doing real work.
Interesting. What is "real world use" for you?
I bought my daughter an M1 Air for Christmas, she is a university student that mostly does written work in Word, research (so mostly web and PDF stuff) and obviously video conferences right now. She has no trouble getting 13-15 hours of uni work done (a little less if a lot of video calls).
Compared to the 2018 Air it replaced she says it is "insane". Although battery life is great it isn't a huge deal for her. The thing she loves the most is no fan noise when on video calls. This was actually the reason I bought it for her as she constantly complained about how loud the old Air was as soon as Zoom started up.
I bought my daughter an M1 Air for Christmas, she is a university student that mostly does written work in Word, research (so mostly web and PDF stuff) and obviously video conferences right now. She has no trouble getting 13-15 hours of uni work done (a little less if a lot of video calls).
Compared to the 2018 Air it replaced she says it is "insane". Although battery life is great it isn't a huge deal for her. The thing she loves the most is no fan noise when on video calls. This was actually the reason I bought it for her as she constantly complained about how loud the old Air was as soon as Zoom started up.
"Real world" for me is working on lightweight container tech and it involves a couple VMs at a time. I also normally keep Spotify or Discord open, and I also have Nextcloud open since it doesn't natively support syncing to it. Combined, this workflow is a disaster for ARM. My $300 T460s actually manages to stay cooler on the same workload.
Ah... containers (if you mean Docker) is the one area where M1 doesn't really excel.
You got all the virtualization and all the emulation.
On Windows side... uhh I am not sure what is Docker using, if WSL or WSL2, or something else. But will probably be better for that usage.
You got all the virtualization and all the emulation.
On Windows side... uhh I am not sure what is Docker using, if WSL or WSL2, or something else. But will probably be better for that usage.
Ah yes that makes more sense. Are these containers and VMs native or running under Rosetta 2?
I use VMware Fusion a lot on my Intel MBP but haven't had a look at virtualisation on the M1 just yet. Waiting for it to mature a little more.
I use VMware Fusion a lot on my Intel MBP but haven't had a look at virtualisation on the M1 just yet. Waiting for it to mature a little more.
They're all native, to the best of my ability. Obviously Docker and ARM go together like toothpaste and peanut butter, so it's not I went into this expecting good performance (don't even get me started on stability though...)
Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I am always interested to hear different use cases to my own.
Hopefully things improve as Apple Silicon becomes better supported over the next few months.
Hopefully things improve as Apple Silicon becomes better supported over the next few months.
What is "real work"?
Not delegating things but doing things your own. That mostly involves a sane keyboard.
Just my tidbit, as a salty owner: The battery life on the 13' MBP is poor, and does not come close to what is advertised with any sort of moderate use (email, chat, couple browser tabs).
My M1 Air can easily go 12 hours on Xcode with several iOS simulators open. My friend with an M1 Air also gets similar battery life.
I'd strongly recommend resetting the system, and perhaps getting a warranty replacement if you continue to experience poor battery life with email, chat, couple browser tabs. That absolutely should not be happening.
I'd strongly recommend resetting the system, and perhaps getting a warranty replacement if you continue to experience poor battery life with email, chat, couple browser tabs. That absolutely should not be happening.
The M1 MBP? That is what I am using (1TB/16GB model) and I easily get the 17 hours stated for web use. Even doing development in Xcode I can go 13-15 hours. It is the most impressed I have been with a laptop since the introduction of multi-core mobile CPUs.
What display brightness are you using? When I bought my M1 MBP it had a setting that made the display darker when I am not plugging it, but in reality when I'm outside on the sun, that's when I really need it to be bright. Still, even if I get 10-14 hours, I love it (also the fact that I can use 1 charger for almost all of my devices).
I am usually around 50-60%. I don't work outside though so never need to crank it up. I find it automatically adjusts it fine.
Intel based* sorry did not make the distinction.
If you have any electron apps that are still running through Rosetta (seems possible with chat apps), those are known to chew through battery like crazy. It may be worth keeping those in a browser tab until they get ARM native builds.
So over 12 hours of battery life for the 15” sounds right?
I'd still expect the AMD version to have better battery life because the numbers are probably 30% lower across the board right?
It's the same for Apple M1 Macbook Pro after I set it to the maximum 500 nits outside, but for the Surface Laptop they don't specify the maximum diplay brightness.
It puzzles me why there are no Ryzen 5000 variants in this list. Microsoft used to collaborate with AMD tightly in recent years.
I think they’re on a tight squeeze right now at the fabs.
The thing that really got up my grill was that apparently the ram was also clocked slower for AMD.
What the hell Microsoft?
> Up to 16GB (AMD, DDR4, 2,400 MHz), up to 32GB (Intel, LPDDR4, 3,733 MHz)
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsoft-surface-laptop-4...
What the hell Microsoft?
> Up to 16GB (AMD, DDR4, 2,400 MHz), up to 32GB (Intel, LPDDR4, 3,733 MHz)
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsoft-surface-laptop-4...
> The 13" AMD version only seems to be available with 16GB RAM and 256 GB storage, while the Intel versions go up to 32 GB and 1 TB.
For the 15" you can only get 16 GB ram too, but the ssd goes up to 512 GB.
For the 15" you can only get 16 GB ram too, but the ssd goes up to 512 GB.
Why is the AMD version limited to "just" 16 GB of RAM? That's sadly not enough for modern development environments.
Seems like a deal with Intel to carve out some reason to buy an Intel model. AMDs are much faster, cheaper and consume less power, so the conspiratorial explanation is that Intel bought the high-spec exclusivity. It's been the same with other laptop manufacturers too.
Yeah some configs only allow you to get 3080 GPUs on mobile with intel. That doesn't mean there aren't any with AMD though
Yes this quite outrageous, probably intel is paying to have the "highest" configuration sadly.
And this 16G is also soldered, so cannot be replaced afterwards...
19 hours on 47.4WH battery and x86 CPU seems incredible. Almost unbelievable.
M1 Macbook Air has larger, 49.9WH battery, and only boasts 18 hours as maximum battery life.
M1 Macbook Air has larger, 49.9WH battery, and only boasts 18 hours as maximum battery life.
As I first saw noted on an Ars comment, it is unbelievable because their testing regimen has no reflection with real world testing, and I'm sure significantly different than Apple's, which I believe doesn't include 'standby' testing included in usage:
"Testing consisted of full battery discharge with a mixture of active use and modern standby. The active use portion consists of (1) a web browsing test accessing 8 popular websites over multiple open tabs, (2) a productivity test utilizing Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel and Outlook, and (3) a portion of time with the device in use with idle applications. All settings were default except screen brightness was set to 150nits with Auto-Brightness disabled. Wi-Fi was connected to a network. Battery life varies significantly with settings, usage and other factors."
[0]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-4/946627fb1...
"Testing consisted of full battery discharge with a mixture of active use and modern standby. The active use portion consists of (1) a web browsing test accessing 8 popular websites over multiple open tabs, (2) a productivity test utilizing Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel and Outlook, and (3) a portion of time with the device in use with idle applications. All settings were default except screen brightness was set to 150nits with Auto-Brightness disabled. Wi-Fi was connected to a network. Battery life varies significantly with settings, usage and other factors."
[0]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-4/946627fb1...
Windows laptops usually overstate battery life, we’ll have to see if it’s reproducible.
Haven't checked, but screen resolution might helps to explain.
As they doubled down on video calls, I wonder how long it’d take MS teams to burn through the battery. On my 2019 i5 MBP I’d loose at least 40% of the charge over 1 hour.
Does any know how they are getting this numbers when it took Apple to move to a different architecture to improve the battery life?
From the footnotes
> Up to 19 hours of battery life based on typical Surface device usage. Testing conducted by Microsoft in February 2021 using preproduction software and preproduction 13.5” AMD Ryzen™ 5 Microsoft Surface® Edition processor, 8GB RAM device. Testing consisted of full battery discharge with a mixture of active use and modern standby. The active use portion consists of (1) a web browsing test accessing 8 popular websites over multiple open tabs, (2) a productivity test utilizing Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel and Outlook, and (3) a portion of time with the device in use with idle applications. All settings were default except screen brightness was set to 150nits with Auto-Brightness disabled. Wi-Fi was connected to a network.
I think the key in there is "modern standby." What is the ratio of standby to active use? That and 150nits brightness, though that is common for a lot of battery tests. (I personally like 250-300 even indoors.)
> Up to 19 hours of battery life based on typical Surface device usage. Testing conducted by Microsoft in February 2021 using preproduction software and preproduction 13.5” AMD Ryzen™ 5 Microsoft Surface® Edition processor, 8GB RAM device. Testing consisted of full battery discharge with a mixture of active use and modern standby. The active use portion consists of (1) a web browsing test accessing 8 popular websites over multiple open tabs, (2) a productivity test utilizing Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel and Outlook, and (3) a portion of time with the device in use with idle applications. All settings were default except screen brightness was set to 150nits with Auto-Brightness disabled. Wi-Fi was connected to a network.
I think the key in there is "modern standby." What is the ratio of standby to active use? That and 150nits brightness, though that is common for a lot of battery tests. (I personally like 250-300 even indoors.)
Been unable to get 32GB of RAM with a Ryzen processor instantly rules them out for me.
My (now older) T470P personal laptop has 32GB of RAM and it's coming up on 4 years old.
Wintel is alive and kicking it seems.
My (now older) T470P personal laptop has 32GB of RAM and it's coming up on 4 years old.
Wintel is alive and kicking it seems.
With a 4:3 display, it's obviously aimed at developers - yet they have a pointless 8GB option, and the AMD configs max out at 16GB?! It makes no sense!
My 5 year old HP Zbook has 64GB of RAM (I do occasionally use up to 48GB), but realistically 32GB is enough.
I'm in the market for a new dev laptop, and this looks like... except for the RAM that makes it a deal-breaker :(
My 5 year old HP Zbook has 64GB of RAM (I do occasionally use up to 48GB), but realistically 32GB is enough.
I'm in the market for a new dev laptop, and this looks like... except for the RAM that makes it a deal-breaker :(
Everytime I want to use my macbook, the cold metal isn't very inviting. Especially if I want to lay it on the lap with shorts on. It is always cold as hell.
Compare this with Thinkpad's soft-touch coated magnesium chassis - almost as sturdy but feels so inviting.
People get woo'ed by something made of metal. Yeah, its nice from an engineering standpoint but it is not the "best industrial design" just because its made of metal. IMO, best design is the one that is more human centric than marketing bullshit and luxury quality cliches.
I really think Thinkpad X1 series is the best laptop ever in terms of its industrial design (not OS, display quality etc). Keyboard is so incredible.
Compare this with Thinkpad's soft-touch coated magnesium chassis - almost as sturdy but feels so inviting.
People get woo'ed by something made of metal. Yeah, its nice from an engineering standpoint but it is not the "best industrial design" just because its made of metal. IMO, best design is the one that is more human centric than marketing bullshit and luxury quality cliches.
I really think Thinkpad X1 series is the best laptop ever in terms of its industrial design (not OS, display quality etc). Keyboard is so incredible.
The X1 is awesome, but Thinkpad T-series had it down in the 2010s. The T440p, the T460s, the T420, and so many other legendary laptops were born from that line.
As a side note, it's a shame they never made any "true" successors to the x230s, I'd love to see them made with today's technology.
As a side note, it's a shame they never made any "true" successors to the x230s, I'd love to see them made with today's technology.
As a counterpoint, I find our corporate X1 yogas the worst laptop I’ve ever had, going back nearly 20 years. A device that makes me close the display just to reset the touchpad driver every time I want to work on it, and this has been reported by others for at least 2 years... if you don’t wanna support it, don’t sell it with that component.
The T480s I had before that was indeed a fine device, if only I could have kept it...
The T480s I had before that was indeed a fine device, if only I could have kept it...
>T460s
:barf: I upgraded from a T430s (great machine for it's time) to a T460s.
the T460s wasn't very good, the track pad was awful, the trackpoint was a new low profile and incredibly stiff style that had no alternative cap styles for it, if you got the innolux display you where fucked (had to replace it with an after market LCD due to the bad colours and viewing angles on an IPS panel). Ram was also soldered.
The only two good things I can say about the T460s was it was incredibly light and the keyboard was my favourite laptop keyboard, it just felt right.
:barf: I upgraded from a T430s (great machine for it's time) to a T460s.
the T460s wasn't very good, the track pad was awful, the trackpoint was a new low profile and incredibly stiff style that had no alternative cap styles for it, if you got the innolux display you where fucked (had to replace it with an after market LCD due to the bad colours and viewing angles on an IPS panel). Ram was also soldered.
The only two good things I can say about the T460s was it was incredibly light and the keyboard was my favourite laptop keyboard, it just felt right.
Presently over two years into the T480s. I love this machine and have no intention of upgrading any time soon.
Yeah, I have the opposite feeling.
My 2020 MBP is so hot I hate using it on my lap.
I have an X1 Carbon 7th Gen that I've been using as a laptop pad for my MBP the last few months... MacOS is just so much more convenient.
My 2020 MBP is so hot I hate using it on my lap.
I have an X1 Carbon 7th Gen that I've been using as a laptop pad for my MBP the last few months... MacOS is just so much more convenient.
And the M1 macs are freezing cold now. Can't Apple find a happy medium for my exposed thighs?
You need the M1 macbook air with a thermal mod then. It connects the chassis to the heatsink. The entire bottom gets warm and the area around the heatsink can get up to 50-55C. On the plus side, with the thermal mod, it doesn't really throttle at all, so on longer workloads it performs about the same as the pro.
Wild. I can't wait for the 16" to come out!
Surface metal isn't aluminium it's a "magnesium, PVD finish". Feels more like stone to the touch than metal and doesn't seem to get as cold as macbooks can.
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The X1 display and sound are definitely a big improvement over the x220, but the trackpoint is terrible (drifts all the time) and the keyboard is a big step down. Both sacrificed at the altar of thinness.
I've noticed this too. The trackpoint on my X220 is excellent, but something about about the later notebooks feels very wrong. For example, I'm using a T460, and the trackpoint is always drifting, and can't be calibrated to the right sensitivity.
They do have thicker models if thinness isn't your thing.
If they work as well as the x220 did, I would get one. But it looks like the keyboard and trackpoint are similar to the ones in the X1. Which would make sense from a manufacturing perspective. Do you have a model you could suggest?
I had a fully loaded P15 three years ago - I can't really comment on trackpad - I only use it in rare situations like traveling and doing work in a coffee shop where I can't really pull out a mouse. Keyboard was great but then again I use a BT keyboard and an external monitor 90% of the time anyway. I switched from that machine to a fully loaded i9 2018 MBP - and while that's more portable and has a better screen the thermals and the performance is waay off, not to mention this thing sounds like a jet plane about to take off as soon as I start a VM and play a video. Also the keyboard is utter garbage in comparison.
It's a chunky device and I haven't checked out the lates ones, but if I wanted a portable workstation with a great keyboard I would get another one for sure. Right now I'm leaning towards getting a desktop and a ultraportable I can use to SSH to the desktop when I need to work on the go - but the HW market is a joke right now, I'm probably going to wait it out till Q3/Q4.
It's a chunky device and I haven't checked out the lates ones, but if I wanted a portable workstation with a great keyboard I would get another one for sure. Right now I'm leaning towards getting a desktop and a ultraportable I can use to SSH to the desktop when I need to work on the go - but the HW market is a joke right now, I'm probably going to wait it out till Q3/Q4.
I love the fact that the Thinkpad X1 has dedicated physical home/end/pgup/pgdown keys. I wouldn't consider buying a laptop without them anymore.
I actually enjoy using my Mac laying it on my lap because it gets warm almost instantly. Like cmon, its cold for not even a minute.
> Everytime I want to use my macbook, the cold metal isn't very inviting.
You could apply some skins.
I actually like the heat dissipation the metal provides.
You could apply some skins.
I actually like the heat dissipation the metal provides.
The dedicated Teams button on everything is peak Microsoft.
Brought to you by the same company who gave us the Windows key.
Can't wait until they rebrand Teams in a year or so and all these devices look out of date because of a logo.
My thoughts exactly. That dedicated Teams button won't age well
They already missed the opportunity to make a Clippy key, they don't want to repeat the same mistake again.
The hope is you can program it to kill Teams if you accidentally open it.
Where is it? I don't see what key it is. Or is it only on the accessories?
Microsoft gets a lot of things right about hardware--but in the end, this is a Microsoft device, built to run Microsoft Windows, Microsoft software, and collect the living shit out of as much data about you as possible.
> but in the end, this is a Microsoft device, built to run Microsoft Windows, Microsoft software
This is such an odd comment. How is this different from Apple devices or those 1st party Chrome OS devices?
This is such an odd comment. How is this different from Apple devices or those 1st party Chrome OS devices?
I figure you never used a Mac. They're not great but way better than Windows. For starters, I don't have to turn off 30 checkboxes to turn off telemetry, I don't have things like candy crush preinstalled, I don't get a browser shoved into my face after every update and I have control over when the system reboots to update. And this is just off the top of my head. Worst of all this applies to the "professional" edition of the OS I paid for. Windows is utter garbage right now.
If the surface laptop played nice with Linux it would be a viable competitor to the X1 Carbon or Dell XPS
I don't know how long it takes to add new devices to this list but I imagine at some point you'll see the SL4 here:
https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supporte...
https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface/wiki/Supporte...
Had surface pro 4, also nice hardware, decide it was going to update Windows right now 30 minutes into a trans-pacific plane flight even though every knob for updates was set to manual only.
Took almost all of the 14 hours over airplane wifi in which I could not work at all.
Gave it away to charity the day after I landed. Its sister unit a coworker had bricked itself about two years later.
Took almost all of the 14 hours over airplane wifi in which I could not work at all.
Gave it away to charity the day after I landed. Its sister unit a coworker had bricked itself about two years later.
The worst device I have ever owned was a Microsoft Surface Pro 6. Most problems with the hardware, like the keyboard not being recognized half the time, or the touchpad randomly ignoring my inputs.
Would not recommend to anyone. A friend of mine has a Surface Book, and he has just as many problems as I had, but with the Surface Books most problems are with the GPU in combination with the bad drivers and horrible external display support.
Would not recommend to anyone. A friend of mine has a Surface Book, and he has just as many problems as I had, but with the Surface Books most problems are with the GPU in combination with the bad drivers and horrible external display support.
Well yes, it is a Microsoft device built to run Microsoft Windows. However, the collect the living shit out of as much data about you as possible will be the case for any machine running Windows, Microsoft built or not.
Really disappointed they shortchanged Ryzen by not using it on the flagship configuration despite it being the better product right now.
Screen resolution is only 2256 x 1504.
My 5 year old laptop has 3200 x 1800 and it looks like nobody makes this resolution any more.
My laptop is a Samsung ATIV Book 9 [1]. It is getting old and I will have to replace it soon, and sadly no one is making an awesome laptop this good any more, not even Samsung. The display, the backlit keyboard, the general build quality, and the industrial design is better than even MacBooks.
[1] https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/windows-laptops/noteboo...
My 5 year old laptop has 3200 x 1800 and it looks like nobody makes this resolution any more.
My laptop is a Samsung ATIV Book 9 [1]. It is getting old and I will have to replace it soon, and sadly no one is making an awesome laptop this good any more, not even Samsung. The display, the backlit keyboard, the general build quality, and the industrial design is better than even MacBooks.
[1] https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/windows-laptops/noteboo...
I'm actually happy to see that resolution. Usually the only resolutions you can find end up giving a pixel density of 143ppi or 286ppi. 143ppi doesn't look great while 286ppi looks excellent but comes with a large penalty to battery life with the extra power needed to drive the display.
Microsoft picked the lower side of the middle-ground with 201ppi. I'd obviously have to see it to be certain, but I'd expect it to not be perceptibly worse than the ~226ppi that Apple uses on their laptops.
This lack of middle-ground options was actually something that frustrated me last year when I was buying a laptop. It was one of the big motivators for me picking up a MacBook Pro instead of going with another Windows machine.
Microsoft picked the lower side of the middle-ground with 201ppi. I'd obviously have to see it to be certain, but I'd expect it to not be perceptibly worse than the ~226ppi that Apple uses on their laptops.
This lack of middle-ground options was actually something that frustrated me last year when I was buying a laptop. It was one of the big motivators for me picking up a MacBook Pro instead of going with another Windows machine.
But still uses a garbage top-hinged trackpad.
Lenovo has finally started implementing haptic trackpads like Macbooks have had for almost a decade, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for the Surface Laptop 5.
Lenovo has finally started implementing haptic trackpads like Macbooks have had for almost a decade, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for the Surface Laptop 5.
I like the Surface quality, but damn, why couldn't they integrate the Ryzen 5000 series!?
It's been out for a while, even the "PRO" business lineup is launching with other laptops this month :(
It's been out for a while, even the "PRO" business lineup is launching with other laptops this month :(
Are the others actually shipping or just launching?
Sometimes there’s a big difference in the PC world between those.
Sometimes there’s a big difference in the PC world between those.
The PRO Ryzens (like 5850U or 5650U) are not shipping as far as I know. Several models from HP, Dell and Lenovo are announced ("launched").
The non-PRO Ryzens (like 5900HX, 5800H, etc.) have been shipping for a while (and you can actually find some in stock most days).
The non-PRO Ryzens (like 5900HX, 5800H, etc.) have been shipping for a while (and you can actually find some in stock most days).
Why do they still bother installing Intel? I am in the market for a new laptop, but I simply cannot buy a reheated vintage CPU that likes to spin fans loudly.
Then the Ryzen one is old as well. Why not a new gen?
Why not trying ARM like Apple did?
>Why do they still bother installing Intel?
Because despite getting clobbered on desktop, Intel is still competitive in laptops and produces more than AMD can.
>Then the Ryzen one is old as well. Why not a new gen?
Because there's not enough supply.
>Why not trying ARM like Apple did?
Because people use Microsoft for backwards compatibility. They tried it before with Windows RT, and it was a flop.
Because despite getting clobbered on desktop, Intel is still competitive in laptops and produces more than AMD can.
>Then the Ryzen one is old as well. Why not a new gen?
Because there's not enough supply.
>Why not trying ARM like Apple did?
Because people use Microsoft for backwards compatibility. They tried it before with Windows RT, and it was a flop.
These are sane points. However, given the circumstances I don't understand why releasing a new product when it already feels few years old at launch. Just to keep themselves busy? Keep practicing releases?
Maybe they could have channelled that energy towards beating Apple instead...
That I can't answer. My guess is it's to meet some sort of contract they have together, like Microsoft sells laptops with AMD processors and gets a better deal on Xbox components. The AMD SKUs seem to top out at 16GB of RAM and smaller SSDs, which signals to me MS doesn't expect to sell as many.
They do have a Surface Pro X with their ARM "SQ" chips which they work with Qualcomm to make. It's nowhere near as good compared to the M1 according to the layperson's benchmarks I've seen though.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-pro-x/8qg3bmrhnwhk
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-pro-x/8qg3bmrhnwhk
> Why not trying ARM like Apple did?
They did. Several times. People turned their noses at them because they couldn't install outside of their app store or their garbage x86 apps directly. The models that did offer x86 compatibility over ARM performed poorly.
Apple can get away with segmentation because people will still buy Apple products because they're Apple products. Microsoft's own brand doesn't carry the same fashionable prestige, so minor annoyances on Macbooks become dealbreakers on Surface.
They did. Several times. People turned their noses at them because they couldn't install outside of their app store or their garbage x86 apps directly. The models that did offer x86 compatibility over ARM performed poorly.
Apple can get away with segmentation because people will still buy Apple products because they're Apple products. Microsoft's own brand doesn't carry the same fashionable prestige, so minor annoyances on Macbooks become dealbreakers on Surface.
>Apple can get away with segmentation because people will still buy Apple products because they're Apple products. Microsoft's own brand doesn't carry the same fashionable prestige, so minor annoyances on Macbooks become dealbreakers on Surface.
??? Apple gets away with it because their x86 -> ARM translation actually works. Without it the M1 Macs would be DOA.
Hopefully Windows will soon see an equally as effective x86 -> ARM translation layer.
??? Apple gets away with it because their x86 -> ARM translation actually works. Without it the M1 Macs would be DOA.
Hopefully Windows will soon see an equally as effective x86 -> ARM translation layer.
> Apple can get away with segmentation because people will still buy Apple products because they're Apple products.
Apple can get away with an on-the-fly architecture transition, because they're willing to invest a shit ton of resources, and also because Rosetta 2 is the software equivalent of the Top Gear opening theme played by Slash on a guitar that's on fire.
Apple can get away with an on-the-fly architecture transition, because they're willing to invest a shit ton of resources, and also because Rosetta 2 is the software equivalent of the Top Gear opening theme played by Slash on a guitar that's on fire.
That's intel but not 14nm/Skylake. It's Tiger Lake that's pretty competitive with Ryzen Renoir, especially on idle power consumption
Oh great, Home and End buttons are located on the same keys as F8 - F12... So basically you will not be able to use both at the same time with a single click. Microsoft learned from Apple how to decrease developer's productivity (Touchbar).
This looks like a good improvement but I’m waiting for a Windows equivalent of the M1 MacBook Air (long battery life ultra book with good performance AND backward compatibility for apps).
Any in-development products worth following?
Any in-development products worth following?
There just aren’t other chips with M1 levels of performance and efficiency. The Surface Pro X, however, is an ARM option, albeit with a now fairly outdated chip.
I have high hopes for the laptop chip Qualcomm plans to build with the former Nuvia team though.
I have high hopes for the laptop chip Qualcomm plans to build with the former Nuvia team though.
I am looking for a new laptop, but seems like only way to get something that feels like an upgrade is going to go with Apple's M1. I hate this company, but I might hold my nose and get one if someone gets Linux working reasonably well. I'll wait few months and see...
In-development? Not yet that I know of.
To compare what AMD can do with 5nm dies we will have to wait since these chips are scarce currently.
To compare what AMD can do with 5nm dies we will have to wait since these chips are scarce currently.
No 1TB SSD or 32GB RAM models with Ryzen is a damn shame.
Also, the Ryzen APUs (custom model numbers 4680U/4980U) are unfortunately still Zen 2.
32gb RAM ... meh it actually consumes a lot of power. This is a thin and small laptop. But I agree about the 1tb SSD.
wont disk swapping use more power than extra RAM?
I don't swap too much on 8gb personally.
Just Remote Desktop into a virtual machine with sufficient RAM to run Google Chrome for your elitist web browsing jeez :)
lol, the main reason I need a laptop with much memory IS Chrome.
That was the joke :( haha sorry
Well you really need to feed those Electron apps you're using don't you? Since they primarily feast on tons of RAM and disk space.
At 'least' the SSD is replaceable, so you can upgrade the space after you bought it. Unlike the M1 Macbook Air that has everything soldered.
At 'least' the SSD is replaceable, so you can upgrade the space after you bought it. Unlike the M1 Macbook Air that has everything soldered.
I just bought myself a laptop so while I was on the market, I'm out now, though I'm glad they mentioned the Surface Duo at the end of the page as part of their push for seamless multi-device coordination for productivity.
I just hope its cousin the Surface Neo manages to see the light of day! Or maybe it will be the 2020s version of Microsoft Courier grrrr.
I just hope its cousin the Surface Neo manages to see the light of day! Or maybe it will be the 2020s version of Microsoft Courier grrrr.
Have been waiting for this as looking to replace my MacBook to get away from some of Apple's recent changes and hopefully get nvidia support as well. But this is disappointing:
- seemingly last generation AMD (4000 series) when there are 5000 series laptops starting to ship from other vendors
- only option with 32G RAM is Intel and black?!
- seems like no option for discrete graphics at all
- seemingly last generation AMD (4000 series) when there are 5000 series laptops starting to ship from other vendors
- only option with 32G RAM is Intel and black?!
- seems like no option for discrete graphics at all
Come on Microsoft, Apple offers the choice of keyboard layout in the EU so why is there no option to configure the keyboard layout during checkout in your store?
At the very minimum, tell the customer the keyboard layout during checkout, because I'm not going to bother ordering it only to find out after receiving it what the layout is (my default assumption is the national layout; e.g. QWERTZ for Germany, AZERTY for France).
Lenovo, HP, and Dell are all guilty of this as well. The laptops are all assembled in SE Asia in the first place, so it's inexcusable that vendors cannot offer different keyboard options on their own web store.
At the very minimum, tell the customer the keyboard layout during checkout, because I'm not going to bother ordering it only to find out after receiving it what the layout is (my default assumption is the national layout; e.g. QWERTZ for Germany, AZERTY for France).
Lenovo, HP, and Dell are all guilty of this as well. The laptops are all assembled in SE Asia in the first place, so it's inexcusable that vendors cannot offer different keyboard options on their own web store.
I find it amusing that they call their wired headphones "Modern USB Headset" while it uses a USB Type-A port, which was released 24 years ago.
This looks great, don't get me wrong, but after so many problems with a Surface Book I completely lost faith in Microsoft's will to make solid laptops.
I'll definitely look for reviews of this unit because it really does look great (including ability to repair and replace components). But I'll be carefully optimistic for now.
I'll definitely look for reviews of this unit because it really does look great (including ability to repair and replace components). But I'll be carefully optimistic for now.
Is there a non-video technical description? Specs and connector placement pictures. :)
- 1 x USB-C
- 1 x USB-A
- 3.5 mm headphone jack
- 1 x Surface Connect port
So I guess this is their "Macbook Air" equivalent?
It's funny to compare with something like https://us.vaio.com/collections/vaio-sx14 which is still very thin. I guess the main trade-off is battery life.
- 1 x USB-A
- 3.5 mm headphone jack
- 1 x Surface Connect port
So I guess this is their "Macbook Air" equivalent?
It's funny to compare with something like https://us.vaio.com/collections/vaio-sx14 which is still very thin. I guess the main trade-off is battery life.
Yeah I miss the vaio philosophy, but I'll at least give props to microsoft for having an awesome power-dock that gives me 4x USB-A, 2x mini display port, ethernet + line-out. Really enjoyed clipping the magnetic power cable on and booting into my desktop. Have had an alienware last couple of years and if I wanted a dock I think I'd be looking at their eGPU and that's still 2 cables.
No dedicated video port? If the USB-C has to be occupied by a monitor connection (assume I don't want to carry surface connect thingy everywhere) then this thing basically offers a single port based on dated technology. Such an odd decision.
Generally people use a USB-C "dock" which has networking, display, and extra USB ports.
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Reading that immediately reminded med of https://frame.work. I kinda want a laptop that I can mess with. I realize it's not for everyone.
We use the same panel dimensions and resolutions as the 13.5" Surface Laptop and the same Tiger Lake CPUs. Beyond that though, we have 1.5mm key travel vs 1.3mm on the Surface Laptop, four configurable ports supporting USB 4 instead of one each of USB-C and USB-A, FHD webcam instead of HD, memory upgradeable to 64GB, storage upgradeable to 4TB, and a design that is open for end customer repairs (rather than "authorized service centers").
This is a great idea, but Intel is a deal breaker.
Oh wow Ryzen CPU option. Was this available in the previous version? I’ve always been a fan of the idea of a surface book. I wonder how it actually feels to use in practice
Like the previous version, they picked a generation old Ryzen chip and then they package it with slower and less ram and disk space than the Intel SKUs. Zen2 in this is still pretty good, but Zen3 came out 6 months ago at this point.
Still no Thunderbolt though? Unless I've missed it somewhere in the article. My wife was sent a Surface Pro (3, I think) to WFH on, and getting it to play nicely with external displays was very hit and miss. Finally found a DisplayPort adapter that works - but on my own laptop, a Dell XPS 15, I found Thunderbolt much easier to make work with external displays.
I don't like keyboard layout- lack of full-sized arrow keys and column of Home/PgUp/PgDn/End buttons on the right.
I've heard great things about MX450 graphics. I'm not sure why it's not making it into more ultrabooks.
Once I was given a Surface Pro as a work computer. The hardware was okay, but I prayed for the sweet release of a hinge. That thing was a usability disaster.
I am so thankful Microsoft is being rewarded for making quality, sensible devices.
I am so thankful Microsoft is being rewarded for making quality, sensible devices.
The only reason I prefer Mac is for the trackpad. Windows pad has always seemed like a terrible flat version of some mouse/scroll interaction. Is this haptic or not? Personally, no other detail matters.
Does anyone have experience with their cheaper Alcantara fabric finish?
I have a 5-year-old keyboard/cover with this for my Surface Pro 4. It has discoloured a bit in that time, but is otherwise undamaged.
This might sound like heresy, but how's Linux support on existing surfaces? This looks like a pretty attractive laptop, but I'd like to have the option to run linux for ROS stuff.
Just a note: one serious limitation I've encountered is that linux running under WSL2 (or WSL1 I believe) is unable to access USB. This was a show stopper for firmware development for me.
The solution seems to be uh, patch the kernel? https://github.com/jovton/USB-Storage-on-WSL2
The solution seems to be uh, patch the kernel? https://github.com/jovton/USB-Storage-on-WSL2
This doesn’t answer your question, but it appears ROS can work with WSL.
https://jack-kawell.com/2020/06/12/ros-wsl2/
https://jack-kawell.com/2020/06/12/ros-wsl2/
Yes for sure, but there’s just less friction when running it on native Ubuntu. Especially with GUI applications with 3D acceleration, think rViz showing large 3D maps.
Man, I wanna buy this and throw Linux on it. Would that be wrong?
Do Surface Laptops have a healthy battery charging feature? E.g., does charging stop at a specific threshold like 60% with Lenovos?
Yes: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/battery-limit
I use it with my Surface Pro 4.
I use it with my Surface Pro 4.
Perhaps worth a mention here Surface laptop 3 runs Ubuntu nearly perfectly just pen won’t work.
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It’s a tragedy: here in Belgium Ryzen is only available with 8 Gb RAM.
This video looks like special effects in a Bollywood action film. :)
No Thunderbolt 4? Pass.
No Thunderbolt anything... They claim it's not secure...
Only 8 GB RAM on AMD processor variants as per bestbuy.
No thunderbolt at this price point is a joke in 2021
That video is missing voice of Jony Ive.
Loving the screenratio
Dump x86 if MS wants my $$$
> Surface Laptop consistently hold the highest customer satisfaction rating in its class
I'm amazed that driver troubles chase Microsoft even on their own designed hardware.
https://www.google.com/search?q=surface+laptop+bricked
The last surface book bricking was borderline tragicomedic.
Microsoft has managed to brick on record:
Surface 1
Book 2
Pro 3
Pro 6
I'm amazed that driver troubles chase Microsoft even on their own designed hardware.
https://www.google.com/search?q=surface+laptop+bricked
The last surface book bricking was borderline tragicomedic.
Microsoft has managed to brick on record:
Surface 1
Book 2
Pro 3
Pro 6
My Surface Laptop 3 has been absolutely flawless and has been the most positive laptop experience of any laptop device I've ever owned. Build quality, software, battery, performance, everything, truly fantastic for me.
Just as a counter-anecdote.
Just as a counter-anecdote.
In addition, the Surface Pro 2 had a firmware issue for months after launch that caused it to get very hot, potentially damaging the battery. I was a very unsatisfied customer, personally.
On my Surface Pro 7:
* The Win10 "Night light" feature became unavailable about half a year after I bought the device. Had to go back to using f.lux. (Meanwhile, on my 2012 ThinkPad with an old NVS5400M graphics card, Night light works just fine.)
* The front camera would regularly get stuck in a bad state, with the light and IR illuminator turned on but camera unavailable, until a reboot. A recent driver update seems to have mitigated the bug; now the camera just reports an error until I reboot, but at least the lights don't stay on.
* There's no S3 Standby state. Either the computer stays on in "Connected S0", with sounds playing, radios on, snagging my Bluetooth headphones' connection, or I can put it into Hibernate, burning through 16 GB of the SSD's TBW every time.
* The Win10 "Night light" feature became unavailable about half a year after I bought the device. Had to go back to using f.lux. (Meanwhile, on my 2012 ThinkPad with an old NVS5400M graphics card, Night light works just fine.)
* The front camera would regularly get stuck in a bad state, with the light and IR illuminator turned on but camera unavailable, until a reboot. A recent driver update seems to have mitigated the bug; now the camera just reports an error until I reboot, but at least the lights don't stay on.
* There's no S3 Standby state. Either the computer stays on in "Connected S0", with sounds playing, radios on, snagging my Bluetooth headphones' connection, or I can put it into Hibernate, burning through 16 GB of the SSD's TBW every time.
Kept good care of my Surface Pro 6 - wireless/bt chip got damaged somehow and now it won't even recognize it has those capabilities most of the time. Otherwise was a fantastic experience.
Good looking laptop with good hardware, but the OS? no thanks
I agree. I'll never buy any hardware that runs Windoze.
No 32gb memory configuration is a deal breaker for me. Maybe next time.
Take a closer look, you can get 32gb in both the 13" and 15" models. Unfortunately only with the Intel CPU.
Weird, when I looked I couldn't get one...maybe the site wasn't finished updating yet.
Built for MS Teams .. closed it after I saw that
> Surface Laptop 4 is, first and foremost, optimized for Microsoft experiences
I...LOVE...MICROSOFT...EXPERIENCES
- Steve Ballmer, notable Microsoft enthusiast
I...LOVE...MICROSOFT...EXPERIENCES
- Steve Ballmer, notable Microsoft enthusiast
I see Microsoft is fully embracing their boring reputation by announcing this in a blog post.
Do you think it will get a repairability score higher than 5 this time?
I think not.
I will probably never buy hw from microsoft again but I must say they make really killer ad videos for their shit nowadays.
I think not.
I will probably never buy hw from microsoft again but I must say they make really killer ad videos for their shit nowadays.
LOL, Apple announces its event: windows launch team: "shit post the blog post now!"
Quite cheeky to have their video featuring a laptop that looks like an alternate-reality version of the MacBook end with the tagline “Original by Design”.
Brushed aluminium unibody, polished company logo in the middle, “MagSafe”. You should think there were other possible ways to design a laptop.
But other than that, looks like a pretty great machine. Lets hope it runs Linux.
Brushed aluminium unibody, polished company logo in the middle, “MagSafe”. You should think there were other possible ways to design a laptop.
But other than that, looks like a pretty great machine. Lets hope it runs Linux.
I was looking for this comment, this is pretty much a copy of the MacBook 3 years back.
Although I am happy they are doing this since no one else is bringing a high quality metal laptop with the same "feel" that you would get from a Macbook aluminum Unibody laptop.
The best windows laptop before was a Macbook running bootcamp.
Although I am happy they are doing this since no one else is bringing a high quality metal laptop with the same "feel" that you would get from a Macbook aluminum Unibody laptop.
The best windows laptop before was a Macbook running bootcamp.
3:2 screen ratio, I really wish the whole PC industry including Mac moves towards it. Even 16:10 is not enough when we increasingly clutter the vertical space with OS menus, controls, dock. And then Browsers address bar, tab bar, then we have the WebSite layout which is also taking vertical space at the top for navigation.
1.3mm Key Travel. Which is the same as the old perfect MacBook Scissors Keyboard. Instead Apple went to 1.0mm Key travel in their magic keyboard just to save face.
Sane size precision trackpad, no more absurdly large trackpad that has easy false positive when you are typing on it.
Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow.
Surface Connect - Is that Microsoft version of MagSafe?
Larger sensor for better quality HD Video Call. They even compare it to MacBook Air 2020 LoL.
I haven't looked at PC Laptop hardware for quite some time, but in mid 2010, Dell or HP's motherboard and Laptop layout just aren't anywhere near as good as Apple. But this Surface Laptop definitely took lots of clues from the old MacBook ( I am wondering if they have ex-Apple MacBook Engineers on their team ).
Ignoring the Software, this Laptop looks exceptionally good!
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3N3u6NyWSY