Ask HN: Do you feel fulfilled with your work?
58 comments
No. I sit at a desk all day pushing buttons on a keyboard. I do it because our society demands I have money to pay for food, shelter, etc.
What would be fulfilling? Tons of things. I have tons of hobbies, skills, and interests that are very fulfilling. The problem is that nothing that is fulfilling pays money. Definitely not the kind of money that pays NYC rent. So here I sit.
What would be fulfilling? Tons of things. I have tons of hobbies, skills, and interests that are very fulfilling. The problem is that nothing that is fulfilling pays money. Definitely not the kind of money that pays NYC rent. So here I sit.
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with comments like these.
Society doesn't require you to work to keep living on this planet, real world does. Society got so good at winning at the game that people now think everything should be free. People still have to work to earn a living and it's not western society's fault.
In a way it is. We could design our society so people have to work much less than they currently do. That would require the super rich to share more of their profit, however. They do not have to work to earn a living, but they do need other people to work for them so they can actually live. Less inequality would mean they'd have to work more, and others would have to work less.
Your view is at odds with the fact that many humans will be unemployable a century from now, and probably sooner.
You'll either give them money or they'll take to the streets. There's no third option -- the jobs won't materialize.
You'll either give them money or they'll take to the streets. There's no third option -- the jobs won't materialize.
Don't assume that's true.
Can't be true. If they take to the streets then that creates a new societal need. With new societal needs comes new opportunities. With new opportunities comes new jobs.
They may not be jobs as we know them. The jobs may be based on barter, and may be somewhat criminal, but people aren't just going to sit around doing nothing while they starve.
Besides, if humans have no jobs, no organization, no motivation for anything, then the AI that's replacing them has nothing to do, so why will it even continue to exist?
They may not be jobs as we know them. The jobs may be based on barter, and may be somewhat criminal, but people aren't just going to sit around doing nothing while they starve.
Besides, if humans have no jobs, no organization, no motivation for anything, then the AI that's replacing them has nothing to do, so why will it even continue to exist?
Horses became unemployable. There are no tasks that a horse can perform better than machines, except for nostalgic reasons. Their population peaked around 1900 and it's been nothing but down.
There's no law of nature that says "New technology makes new jobs for horses." It sounds shockingly dumb to even say this out loud. But swap "horses" for "humans" and everyone thinks it sounds about right.
There's no law of nature that says "New technology makes new jobs for horses." It sounds shockingly dumb to even say this out loud. But swap "horses" for "humans" and everyone thinks it sounds about right.
Horses as a population can't seek out new opportunities or create new industries for themselves. The horse industry was created by humans for horses, not by horses for themselves. Our entire economy however was created organically by humans responding to needs of humans. So as long as humans have needs, and assets to trade to meet those needs, an economy will continue to exist.
Where this breaks down is the massive difference in those humans, both intellectually and economically.
A human without means to create any industry -- an ivy league pedigree (which still matters, no matter how much we'd like to believe otherwise), a VC connection, a rich uncle -- they're not going to create shit. At most, they're going to invent a product for themselves to sell that will hopefully get them out of their financial situation and into a better one. That's economics, but it's also not responsible for the massive job growth associated with industry.
On the flipside, you have the unintelligent people that make up most of the world. It's not too politically correct to point this out, but most people are pretty dumb. I'm no exception, having acted in some dumb ways myself. But if you're not capable of being smart when it counts, then you're again not going to be creating very much. Not when it comes to job growth.
So what does that leave? Ah yes, the thing we've all been dancing around. Classism. There are already three distinct castes of people: those that create jobs, those that work, and those that have no jobs. That middle class is going to dwindle as automation renders them useless. And it's naive to think that the latter caste will become the former.
I think this idea meets with so much resistance because we'd all like to believe that everything will be ok. Everything will work out, right? It always has.
Let's put it this way: Things will work out one way or another. But that "other" route is not a pleasant one.
A human without means to create any industry -- an ivy league pedigree (which still matters, no matter how much we'd like to believe otherwise), a VC connection, a rich uncle -- they're not going to create shit. At most, they're going to invent a product for themselves to sell that will hopefully get them out of their financial situation and into a better one. That's economics, but it's also not responsible for the massive job growth associated with industry.
On the flipside, you have the unintelligent people that make up most of the world. It's not too politically correct to point this out, but most people are pretty dumb. I'm no exception, having acted in some dumb ways myself. But if you're not capable of being smart when it counts, then you're again not going to be creating very much. Not when it comes to job growth.
So what does that leave? Ah yes, the thing we've all been dancing around. Classism. There are already three distinct castes of people: those that create jobs, those that work, and those that have no jobs. That middle class is going to dwindle as automation renders them useless. And it's naive to think that the latter caste will become the former.
I think this idea meets with so much resistance because we'd all like to believe that everything will be ok. Everything will work out, right? It always has.
Let's put it this way: Things will work out one way or another. But that "other" route is not a pleasant one.
There are plenty of flaws in the argument here. I know plenty of reasonably dumb yet successful entrepreneurs. Plus the situation is fluid over time (many people only get motivated when the need arises). Also "three distinct castes", well it's not that digital.
Still I can't disagree with the essence of it. It could certainly turn into some form of feudalism, where the haves control everything and peasants work hand-to-mouth, or worse. Though that's somewhat guaranteed at some level by Malthusian logic anyway.
Though it does open the interesting paradox where if humans kill the economy by automation, then there's nobody to buy anything anymore, so there's no need to automate anything anymore, so does the economy then come right back?
Still I can't disagree with the essence of it. It could certainly turn into some form of feudalism, where the haves control everything and peasants work hand-to-mouth, or worse. Though that's somewhat guaranteed at some level by Malthusian logic anyway.
Though it does open the interesting paradox where if humans kill the economy by automation, then there's nobody to buy anything anymore, so there's no need to automate anything anymore, so does the economy then come right back?
I gave that last item a bit more thought, and I think that may be the mitigating factor in all this. You can only automate so much / put so many people out of work, until it becomes unprofitable to automate anything else because the market will have fallen so far.
So rather than a single huge mass event where automation destroys our fabric of life, we'll have swings back and forth from overautomation to overemployment. Each swing will give us a chance to re-evaluate and rebalance our priorities.
Essentially that's already happening and has already happened over the last ... couple centuries really. I guess there's a chance that the pendulum could suddenly swing so far in one direction that it's irrecoverable, but at least I don't think one can say it's inevitable.
So rather than a single huge mass event where automation destroys our fabric of life, we'll have swings back and forth from overautomation to overemployment. Each swing will give us a chance to re-evaluate and rebalance our priorities.
Essentially that's already happening and has already happened over the last ... couple centuries really. I guess there's a chance that the pendulum could suddenly swing so far in one direction that it's irrecoverable, but at least I don't think one can say it's inevitable.
It doesn't take very many people out of work to wreak havoc. Food shortage is the main cause of revolt. There was an excellent paper on this that I can't find, but it's well-studied in academia. Here's a paper I haven't studied: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/food2025/blogfiles/14415.pdf
The great depression only had about 30% unemployment, for example. That "overautomation" phase isn't something you'll want to linger in without a plan to support these people.
EDIT: For a glimpse of the future, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRXr7zB5M2A is worth listening to. It's the present, actually, but the struggles are only going to increase.
The great depression only had about 30% unemployment, for example. That "overautomation" phase isn't something you'll want to linger in without a plan to support these people.
EDIT: For a glimpse of the future, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRXr7zB5M2A is worth listening to. It's the present, actually, but the struggles are only going to increase.
Well, unless drug dealing is the next thing to get automated. :/
And even if there ever is a plan of how to deal with all this, I can't help but think it parallels the old sci-fi short story "With Folded Hands".
semi-sequitur: From my liberal bubble, the liberal bubble light bulb buzzes over my head thinking, perhaps that whole short story is exactly what strikes conservatives to the core. It kind of makes sense. I kind of see what they mean. Granted I have no clue what that has to do with gay rights. But for a second I understood. Sympathized, even. Anyway, back to the bubble.
And even if there ever is a plan of how to deal with all this, I can't help but think it parallels the old sci-fi short story "With Folded Hands".
semi-sequitur: From my liberal bubble, the liberal bubble light bulb buzzes over my head thinking, perhaps that whole short story is exactly what strikes conservatives to the core. It kind of makes sense. I kind of see what they mean. Granted I have no clue what that has to do with gay rights. But for a second I understood. Sympathized, even. Anyway, back to the bubble.
I don't really see you point. When you pay "NYC rent" that money of course ends up somewhere. Some of your work hours becomes their margin. It's pretty obvious if you manage to find cheap accommodations or work remotely. Suddenly your income to expense ratio might be something like 6 to 1. Meaning you only _have to_ work two months a year.
The whole idea of the "real world" in contrast to "everything should be free" seem more like an example of western society than reality.
The whole idea of the "real world" in contrast to "everything should be free" seem more like an example of western society than reality.
Maybe I am more old school in this regard, but I don't think it is a requirement to find a fulfilling job just out of college. As you grow in your career, so do your opportunities and your ability to choose the work that suits your desires best. When initially entering the workforce, you have much less leverage to pick and choose.
To answer your question, yes I do find my work fulfilling as it takes advantage of my skill set and expertise, and is an industry in which I've always wanted to work. But it took me over 10 years to get to this point, and my first few years were frustrating.
Power through it. It gets better.
To answer your question, yes I do find my work fulfilling as it takes advantage of my skill set and expertise, and is an industry in which I've always wanted to work. But it took me over 10 years to get to this point, and my first few years were frustrating.
Power through it. It gets better.
This. If anything, developers do way better in their mid 20s than almost any other profession. If you ask older people about their early jobs, most will tell you they sucked and paid very little.
I broker professional liability insurance for design professionals (architects and engineers), which means I don't much fit in on HN, but I enjoy the content anyway.
Most would call what I do boring, and some of it is. I do enjoy working with our clients, most of whom are easy going, like to shoot the shit and talk about the interesting designs and projects they are working on. Some of them have worked on some incredibly large projects in Houston and Dallas. I also enjoy digging into their contracts and offering non-legal advise to help them mitigate their risk.
Is it fulfilling? A little bit, but I realized that if I allow work to be my biggest defining factor, I'd probably be frustrated most of the time. I like my team, and others in my office, and I get paid very well for my market. I'm not overworked and have time to do other things that interest me. I spend a ton of time with my wife, and have a great community of friends.
My life as a whole is fulfilled. My job contributes to that, but I count it a small factor.
Most would call what I do boring, and some of it is. I do enjoy working with our clients, most of whom are easy going, like to shoot the shit and talk about the interesting designs and projects they are working on. Some of them have worked on some incredibly large projects in Houston and Dallas. I also enjoy digging into their contracts and offering non-legal advise to help them mitigate their risk.
Is it fulfilling? A little bit, but I realized that if I allow work to be my biggest defining factor, I'd probably be frustrated most of the time. I like my team, and others in my office, and I get paid very well for my market. I'm not overworked and have time to do other things that interest me. I spend a ton of time with my wife, and have a great community of friends.
My life as a whole is fulfilled. My job contributes to that, but I count it a small factor.
"My life as a whole is fulfilled. My job contributes to that, but I count it a small factor."
Best answer so far.
Best answer so far.
That's very interesting. I am a design professional at an MEP firm in Houston who also reads HN because I enjoy the content and it pertains to my hobbies.
I make certain demands from the jobs that I take. No porn jobs. No advertising. No abusive industries. No distribution of non-free software.
So far, I have been able to get jobs that fulfill that. My last two jobs have been somewhat important, medical imaging for one (make humans healthier), and greenhouse gas assessments/environmental mapping for the other (make the planet less sick). I sometimes am tempted by bigger salaries, but I do not want to work at a company that produces bad or useless things. Sometimes when I browse the monthly Who Is Hiring threads, I think wow, there's a lot of money being poured into bullshit that ranges from useless to harmful for society.
So, yes. We do exist, those of us mostly happy with our jobs, doing good things. Keep looking and you won't have to sell your soul. :-)
So far, I have been able to get jobs that fulfill that. My last two jobs have been somewhat important, medical imaging for one (make humans healthier), and greenhouse gas assessments/environmental mapping for the other (make the planet less sick). I sometimes am tempted by bigger salaries, but I do not want to work at a company that produces bad or useless things. Sometimes when I browse the monthly Who Is Hiring threads, I think wow, there's a lot of money being poured into bullshit that ranges from useless to harmful for society.
So, yes. We do exist, those of us mostly happy with our jobs, doing good things. Keep looking and you won't have to sell your soul. :-)
Even when working for companies that matter (based on your values), it's easy to feel unfilled if you are detached from the primary objective or working with uninteresting tech (think an underpaid janitor working for Greenpeace/WWF/etc). Just pointing out that choosing to work for one of the "good guys" isn't a guarantee of being fulfilled, for some people.
I am ok with that. Greenpeace needs janitors too and there's no shame in being a janitor. I'm content being a microscopic cog in a non-catastrophic plan. As long as I'm involved in good, honest work, I'm content.
I did not say there's anything wrong with being a janitor. My comment was made in the HN context. If you spend your life learning programming languages and systems for a good reason but you're unhappy with your current situation, then just choosing to work for a company with a non-catastrophic plan might not be a sure way to achieve happiness if at the same time you're not realizing your full potential (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization).
“You want to play house, you got to have a job. You want to play very nice house, very sweet house, then you got to have a job you don't like. Great. This is the way ninety-eight-point-nine per cent of the people work things out, so believe me, buddy, you've got nothing to apologize for.”
— Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
Though mind that there's a bit more nuance to that scene, and the character saying that mostly seems put out that the novel's lead character isn't enlightened enough to realize he's complaining about/apologizing for choices that he made, his (the lead character's) fundamental struggle being with choices having necessary trade-offs, i.e. you can't have everything, and also with failing to work towards or make the necessary sacrifices to achieve the things he agonizes over not having/being. Basically he's talented enough to easily live a good, ordinary life, but is constantly frustrated that he's not living the life of his dreams (while also being afraid to actually try) and sees his current situation as both temporary and contemptible.
— Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
Though mind that there's a bit more nuance to that scene, and the character saying that mostly seems put out that the novel's lead character isn't enlightened enough to realize he's complaining about/apologizing for choices that he made, his (the lead character's) fundamental struggle being with choices having necessary trade-offs, i.e. you can't have everything, and also with failing to work towards or make the necessary sacrifices to achieve the things he agonizes over not having/being. Basically he's talented enough to easily live a good, ordinary life, but is constantly frustrated that he's not living the life of his dreams (while also being afraid to actually try) and sees his current situation as both temporary and contemptible.
Sometimes. Some days, the feeling of getting things done is enough. Other days, it's argh all day, with the realization that fundamentally the business is directing us in the wrong direction, so it'll never matter.
But, it really depends on what you're looking for. Even if a job is 'bullshit', if it means you get to be a positive influence in others' lives, find others to be positive influences in your own, provide you with funds to aid others and pursue other interests, grows your skills and knowledge, and in general helps you move forward in life, that may just be enough, even if the job isn't, in and of itself, making the world a better place.
Of course, you need to find a job you can stomach morally/ideologically. And ideally, one that leaves you feeling like you accomplished something some days. But your job will never, in and of itself, consistently provide you with purpose, unless you're in charge (so you're not feeling frustrated by the decisions of others), and it's a non-profit (so you feel like you're actually making the world a better place, not just chasing profit).
But, it really depends on what you're looking for. Even if a job is 'bullshit', if it means you get to be a positive influence in others' lives, find others to be positive influences in your own, provide you with funds to aid others and pursue other interests, grows your skills and knowledge, and in general helps you move forward in life, that may just be enough, even if the job isn't, in and of itself, making the world a better place.
Of course, you need to find a job you can stomach morally/ideologically. And ideally, one that leaves you feeling like you accomplished something some days. But your job will never, in and of itself, consistently provide you with purpose, unless you're in charge (so you're not feeling frustrated by the decisions of others), and it's a non-profit (so you feel like you're actually making the world a better place, not just chasing profit).
I think that's a shock everyone goes through. You either accept it as a fact of life and take the paycheck to survive and feed your family, or you figure out an alternative path.
Personally, I find offices pretty depressing usually, the only way I tolerate it is with self-employment. Fulfillment isn't something I really think about, I just want to make sure I'm maximizing my own potential.
If money doesn't matter as much, I don't see why you wouldn't learn a skilled trade. These types of people are usually happier; if you are responsible, reliable and not drugged out, and master a difficult skill that's in demand, you will always have work. In addition, the path to self-employment is obvious, clear, and potentially lucrative.
Personally, I find offices pretty depressing usually, the only way I tolerate it is with self-employment. Fulfillment isn't something I really think about, I just want to make sure I'm maximizing my own potential.
If money doesn't matter as much, I don't see why you wouldn't learn a skilled trade. These types of people are usually happier; if you are responsible, reliable and not drugged out, and master a difficult skill that's in demand, you will always have work. In addition, the path to self-employment is obvious, clear, and potentially lucrative.
No. I'm in product management, and I think that the root cause is that I do not deeply care about the product that I manage. I'm looking for a similar position, but at a company that builds something that I would use intensively myself, in a domain that I consider myself an expert in (which is not the case now, tbh).
Then again, I believe that no matter how much you love doing something, if you're forced to do it 40 hours a week every week, everything becomes a drag sooner or later. So I'd love to work less, maybe 4 full days a week. Sadly this is not acceptable for my employer (an early growth stage startup).
Then again, I believe that no matter how much you love doing something, if you're forced to do it 40 hours a week every week, everything becomes a drag sooner or later. So I'd love to work less, maybe 4 full days a week. Sadly this is not acceptable for my employer (an early growth stage startup).
Here's a way to think about it. In Los Angeles every waiter/bartender is an aspiring actor. After you get past the social taboo of asking what people do for a living, you'll find that the answer is always: "I'm an actor". The job is just the job.
People define themselves by a job instead of identifying with a career. Some people say career, others say calling. On this path there are many jobs.
People define themselves by a job instead of identifying with a career. Some people say career, others say calling. On this path there are many jobs.
What are examples of jobs that don't align with your moral/ideological compass?
You probably shouldn't get all your fulfillment in life from a job. You need to find fulfillment in things you control. Giving so much power to something you can't control will cause you lots of pain in your life.
You probably shouldn't get all your fulfillment in life from a job. You need to find fulfillment in things you control. Giving so much power to something you can't control will cause you lots of pain in your life.
May I add that, according to Epictetus[1]:
Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our own actions.
If you agree with this, finding fullfillment in things you control is very hard to achieve.
[1] http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html
If you agree with this, finding fullfillment in things you control is very hard to achieve.
[1] http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html
I do. I'm fortunate to have started a company that 1)helps solve a problem in my own life and 2) is able to help others. I invented Pavlok (http://pavlok.com) to help me quit wasting time online, and quickly found that electric shock had rapid and massive effects on helping people quit smoking, nail biting, eating unhealthy, suffering negative thoughts, and way more. It's been a long ride, but I'm incredibly grateful i have the opportunity to help others.
I hope you find the same
I hope you find the same
Yes.
I'm a programmer at a startup that's going very well. The founders have been around the block before so there's no chaos, no struggling with funding, they pay us well, and give us great benefits. There's a lot of care put into organizing project teams (projects usually last 3-6 months) and we get to have a lot of input about what we work on, so that no one person is stuck doing the same thing forever. They don't care when I get to work or how much vacation I take, just that I do the work I need to do.. I pretty get as much autonomy as possible. There's very little expectation to work overtime, except for the very rare crunch time for an important customer.
The projects I'm working on aren't insane technical challenges, but I do basically feel like I'm solving a bunch of little puzzles for a living. There are a lot of nice, capable senior programmers to learn from, so I never feel like I'm stagnating or am in way too far over my head. We've put a lot of thought into our application architectures and the business side is A-OK with us taking time to refactor and tackle tech debt as it accrues.
I can't really think of much I'd improve. Sure, the company doesn't burn money on a crazy nice office like Dropbox with top-tier chefs cooking us scallops and whatnot, but for the stuff that truly matters and makes me feel fulfilled, it's perfect.
I'm a programmer at a startup that's going very well. The founders have been around the block before so there's no chaos, no struggling with funding, they pay us well, and give us great benefits. There's a lot of care put into organizing project teams (projects usually last 3-6 months) and we get to have a lot of input about what we work on, so that no one person is stuck doing the same thing forever. They don't care when I get to work or how much vacation I take, just that I do the work I need to do.. I pretty get as much autonomy as possible. There's very little expectation to work overtime, except for the very rare crunch time for an important customer.
The projects I'm working on aren't insane technical challenges, but I do basically feel like I'm solving a bunch of little puzzles for a living. There are a lot of nice, capable senior programmers to learn from, so I never feel like I'm stagnating or am in way too far over my head. We've put a lot of thought into our application architectures and the business side is A-OK with us taking time to refactor and tackle tech debt as it accrues.
I can't really think of much I'd improve. Sure, the company doesn't burn money on a crazy nice office like Dropbox with top-tier chefs cooking us scallops and whatnot, but for the stuff that truly matters and makes me feel fulfilled, it's perfect.
Partly yes. The fulfilling part there is a huge dependency on me and my company counts on me to deliver critical things to run business. That responsibility is fulfilling (to an extent).
The main thing which is not fulfilling in my full-time job is the fact that I'm selling my time which makes difficult for me to spend my time for myself whenever I want.
Also, I learned that if you are so unhappy with your current life, mostly you will not be happy even if you get what you want. I changed my daily routine to include lot of physical activity and reading, which has greatly improved my mindset and is helping to be more active in my day-to-day life.
As an aside, like you I had a very early (around 21,22) quarter-life crisis after my college (Now I'm 28). After working in a unfulfilling job, I just quit without any plans. Looking back, it was the wonderful time of my life and it reinforced my want to create my own business, so that I don't sell time rather sell something based on my expertise. It was scary enough; case in point, I'm currently in a full time job. But soon, I may take a leap to have my own business and an independent life.
All the best.
The main thing which is not fulfilling in my full-time job is the fact that I'm selling my time which makes difficult for me to spend my time for myself whenever I want.
Also, I learned that if you are so unhappy with your current life, mostly you will not be happy even if you get what you want. I changed my daily routine to include lot of physical activity and reading, which has greatly improved my mindset and is helping to be more active in my day-to-day life.
As an aside, like you I had a very early (around 21,22) quarter-life crisis after my college (Now I'm 28). After working in a unfulfilling job, I just quit without any plans. Looking back, it was the wonderful time of my life and it reinforced my want to create my own business, so that I don't sell time rather sell something based on my expertise. It was scary enough; case in point, I'm currently in a full time job. But soon, I may take a leap to have my own business and an independent life.
All the best.
Getting started is usually the roughest part. A bunch of crap that you don't care about, suddenly you have to care about. It gets better once you start gaining ownership of things. You can start to make a personal stamp on things, enough to keep you going.
That's not to say the job itself doesn't matter. Some jobs just never become fulfilling, for whatever reason. But it's not a black/white thing; there aren't discrete classes of "fulfilling jobs" and "unfulfilling jobs". In my experience I'd say any particular job will max out somewhere between 0% and 65% fulfilling, after you've been there a while. There's always work though, even at the best jobs; otherwise it wouldn't be called "work".
That's not to say the job itself doesn't matter. Some jobs just never become fulfilling, for whatever reason. But it's not a black/white thing; there aren't discrete classes of "fulfilling jobs" and "unfulfilling jobs". In my experience I'd say any particular job will max out somewhere between 0% and 65% fulfilling, after you've been there a while. There's always work though, even at the best jobs; otherwise it wouldn't be called "work".
I feel fulfilled with my work as a freelance programmer.
I enjoy programming; I find it mentally stimulating. The market is such that I can turn away work that I find ethically distasteful, work remotely (and thus travel and/or live in a more low-COL peaceful area), and the pay is high enough that I can take a significant amount of time off to code on projects that are directly interesting to me. I feel this is a better situation than the vast majority of people are in.
It took me a while to arrive at thinking about it like this, but I think most of it was mental on my part rather than the job opportunities available to me. I recently read So Good They Can't Ignore You by Cal Newport and I wish I'd read it when I was in college.
I enjoy programming; I find it mentally stimulating. The market is such that I can turn away work that I find ethically distasteful, work remotely (and thus travel and/or live in a more low-COL peaceful area), and the pay is high enough that I can take a significant amount of time off to code on projects that are directly interesting to me. I feel this is a better situation than the vast majority of people are in.
It took me a while to arrive at thinking about it like this, but I think most of it was mental on my part rather than the job opportunities available to me. I recently read So Good They Can't Ignore You by Cal Newport and I wish I'd read it when I was in college.
No. I have to be an adult and deal with a lot of people, some of whose personalities will get on my very last nerve, and do a lot of reactive (as opposed to proactive) things. A lot of investigation and fixing as opposed to greenfielding. Sometimes this isn't the case, but it never lasts.
But 'fulfilling' is a pretty tall order. Sometimes people just pay your price and you shut up about it.
I haven't commuted in 14 years, not that I'd mind because the German luxury car they gave me is amazing and comfortable, but I'd miss the extra time with the wife and furry children. Eventually I'll retire on some island and crank out vintage computer software between naps. That will be plenty fulfilling.
But 'fulfilling' is a pretty tall order. Sometimes people just pay your price and you shut up about it.
I haven't commuted in 14 years, not that I'd mind because the German luxury car they gave me is amazing and comfortable, but I'd miss the extra time with the wife and furry children. Eventually I'll retire on some island and crank out vintage computer software between naps. That will be plenty fulfilling.
No. But I don't rely on my job to provide me with fulfilment.
Your job isn't there to fulfil you. It's there to make you money so you can do all the things you find fulfilling.
Develop a good work / life balance. (This can be hard in the tech industry but it can be done, just find a good company)
Work on your own stuff. Travel (If that's your thing! - not everybody has to like it, but I think you should try it at least once).
Many companies allow you to work remotely. One of my colleagues for instance bought a boat and sails round the med, he goes in to port on work days and connects with a 4G dongle.
Most importantly - Create your own meaning in life, don't rely on others (E.G employers) to provide it for you.
Your job isn't there to fulfil you. It's there to make you money so you can do all the things you find fulfilling.
Develop a good work / life balance. (This can be hard in the tech industry but it can be done, just find a good company)
Work on your own stuff. Travel (If that's your thing! - not everybody has to like it, but I think you should try it at least once).
Many companies allow you to work remotely. One of my colleagues for instance bought a boat and sails round the med, he goes in to port on work days and connects with a 4G dongle.
Most importantly - Create your own meaning in life, don't rely on others (E.G employers) to provide it for you.
Absolutely yes, my work is fulfilling. My experience is that this is not the case for most people. For most people, it's like the TV show 'the Office'.
Dont settle until you find work that you find fulfilling. Note that it might take a while. If something seems interesting, date it for a while, like it, or not, and know that it may take time to fall in love with it (as true for work as for other things). Things can get more interesting the more you get into it, and the deeper your knowledge.
I work in science - I get paid to think about interesting problems and try to figure out novel and (hopefully) clever ways to solve them. I also get a lot pleasure out (hopefully) contributing to the advancement of knowledge, playing a minor role in the greater understanding of the universe. So, there is that in the big picture, but the day to day is really fun. It's play time - but for adults - more than half the time, building interesting things, learning and coding. There are stressful days, and some drudge work, but those are the minority.
I've seen a lot of comments recently advocating the goal of having 25x annual expenses in savings. This is such a great idea, for at least this reason: Savings like that would give you security and freedom, insulation from a boring job and a boring life. Freedom to pursue interests and careers, or start a business, or improve the world with sustained action. I wish I had that idea 20 yrs ago.
Dont settle until you find work that you find fulfilling. Note that it might take a while. If something seems interesting, date it for a while, like it, or not, and know that it may take time to fall in love with it (as true for work as for other things). Things can get more interesting the more you get into it, and the deeper your knowledge.
I work in science - I get paid to think about interesting problems and try to figure out novel and (hopefully) clever ways to solve them. I also get a lot pleasure out (hopefully) contributing to the advancement of knowledge, playing a minor role in the greater understanding of the universe. So, there is that in the big picture, but the day to day is really fun. It's play time - but for adults - more than half the time, building interesting things, learning and coding. There are stressful days, and some drudge work, but those are the minority.
I've seen a lot of comments recently advocating the goal of having 25x annual expenses in savings. This is such a great idea, for at least this reason: Savings like that would give you security and freedom, insulation from a boring job and a boring life. Freedom to pursue interests and careers, or start a business, or improve the world with sustained action. I wish I had that idea 20 yrs ago.
I think it's actually more like the movie "Office Space". The characters in The Office seem to actually like each other deep down, whereas the Office Space setting has much fewer nice qualities.
> For most people, it's like the TV show 'the Office'.
I'm sorry, but as a big fan of The Office, I'm really offended :)
I'm sorry, but as a big fan of The Office, I'm really offended :)
It's like The Office, but not as funny!
Yes. But I think this is different for different people. Since the first time I touched a computer begin 80s when I was a kid (and before reading every article and book my father brought home) I wanted to 'create stuff' on it. I had the same with electronics but a computer seemed 'more efficient electronics' for creating; no soldering, buying parts, no expensive failures etc.
I have been programming since that time and it has not disappointed; I never get enough of it. I remember the first time that I wrote something in Basic (which was shortly after the above) and the amazement when it finally worked, then the same feeling with ASM, Pascal, C and later others. I still have that when I manage to get something I thought up in my head and see working after pulling an all-nighter. I am 42 so I believe that constitutes as a good longterm fullfilment level. Money is required but secondary; one should still drive a hard bargain of course (some people seem to not do that, especially when younger).
I also get fullfilment many other aspects of working with colleagues, partners, but the drive to create new things from 'nothing' with code is the main thread through all the years/companies. And keeps me absorbing new (for me) things all the time which is another fullfilment (learning/reading I find fullfilling); because of the current hypes I got back into NNs (last used in the AI winter when I was at uni) and also blockchain (dev), and combined (working on a trading bot in Tensorflow for fun).
I have been programming since that time and it has not disappointed; I never get enough of it. I remember the first time that I wrote something in Basic (which was shortly after the above) and the amazement when it finally worked, then the same feeling with ASM, Pascal, C and later others. I still have that when I manage to get something I thought up in my head and see working after pulling an all-nighter. I am 42 so I believe that constitutes as a good longterm fullfilment level. Money is required but secondary; one should still drive a hard bargain of course (some people seem to not do that, especially when younger).
I also get fullfilment many other aspects of working with colleagues, partners, but the drive to create new things from 'nothing' with code is the main thread through all the years/companies. And keeps me absorbing new (for me) things all the time which is another fullfilment (learning/reading I find fullfilling); because of the current hypes I got back into NNs (last used in the AI winter when I was at uni) and also blockchain (dev), and combined (working on a trading bot in Tensorflow for fun).
Rarely.
I studied computer science with dreams of saving the world. My two areas of interests were 1) building medical systems/devices to help decrease overall cost of medicine and 2) building robots to explore and colonize Mars.
My first job was at health care facility, but soon I learned our IT departments goal was not to save money for patients but maximize what we can bill them.
Since then I had multiple jobs in tech and non-tech industries, sometimes I get to work on interesting projects but most of the time it is really about building another flashy feature so user/customer stay on our site or app.
I know there are programmers working on world saving projects at NASA, SpaceX, medical research labs, analyzing data to find good solutions to real problems. But most programmers are simply helping other people sell junks to masses.
But this how I feel good about my work. By building technologies for selling crap, we are lowering overall cost for everyone. This should indirectly help non-profits, governments, universities by lowering their cost to use technology.
I studied computer science with dreams of saving the world. My two areas of interests were 1) building medical systems/devices to help decrease overall cost of medicine and 2) building robots to explore and colonize Mars.
My first job was at health care facility, but soon I learned our IT departments goal was not to save money for patients but maximize what we can bill them.
Since then I had multiple jobs in tech and non-tech industries, sometimes I get to work on interesting projects but most of the time it is really about building another flashy feature so user/customer stay on our site or app.
I know there are programmers working on world saving projects at NASA, SpaceX, medical research labs, analyzing data to find good solutions to real problems. But most programmers are simply helping other people sell junks to masses.
But this how I feel good about my work. By building technologies for selling crap, we are lowering overall cost for everyone. This should indirectly help non-profits, governments, universities by lowering their cost to use technology.
3 months ago doing AngularJS for Google - absolutely not.
Today doing legal paperwork for my new startup while an ML model trains in the background - absolutely yes.
Personally I've figured out that the two biggest things for me are creative freedom and the quality of the people I work with. I am finally getting to build something cool with my best friend in the whole world, couldn't be happier.
Today doing legal paperwork for my new startup while an ML model trains in the background - absolutely yes.
Personally I've figured out that the two biggest things for me are creative freedom and the quality of the people I work with. I am finally getting to build something cool with my best friend in the whole world, couldn't be happier.
> Today doing legal paperwork for my new startup while an ML model trains in the background - absolutely yes.
Would love to hear more about this if you're willing to share without disclosing anything that might put you at a competitive disadvantage.
Would love to hear more about this if you're willing to share without disclosing anything that might put you at a competitive disadvantage.
Most of the time, yes.
I'm working within a corporation, distributed teams, just leveled up from dev to overseeing our team.
Had to deal with a lot of issues, both technical (no docs, crappy code, too much knowledge we don't have and takes time to investigate, etc.) and managerial (our team is always behind, always wrong, they're always right, etc.) but among those things I find myself motivated to improve our environment. To help with investigation and domain knowledge as much as I can, to reduce the burnout and 'manage' team's frustration, to mentor the group of interns, to improve technical stack, to became an independent and performance team, etc.
I'm still in my early days of this leadership experience and I'm very unsure of what, how and if I'll succeed but at least every morning I'm rushing to work.
God no.
I work in an industry I otherwise despise (advertising) literally helping perpetuate what I so dislike about the current industry (data science and ml relentlessly invading everyone's privacy). It's a job I took because the alternative was being unemployed, and one that I hope to get out of soon.
I work in an industry I otherwise despise (advertising) literally helping perpetuate what I so dislike about the current industry (data science and ml relentlessly invading everyone's privacy). It's a job I took because the alternative was being unemployed, and one that I hope to get out of soon.
Lately, yes. I remember some of the same feelings from 20 years ago when I dropped out of university to join my first startup. But it took leaving the whole industry behind to get here, it's sick and getting worse every day. These days I'm writing the software I want to write, the software that I feel needs to be written; the way I feel it should be written; and giving away everything for free (https://github.com/andreas-gone-wild/snackis). And as an added bonus I get a lot more quality time with my family then I ever could after having life squeezed out of me to generate awesome profits. Money can't buy that experience and comfortable is relative.
Yes.
The thing for me is that is fulfilling, is the talented and genuine people I work with, and from doing the best work I can.
People always talk about how fulfillment coming from "Changing the world," and helping people, but really if you mesh with the people - that's fulfilling enough for me!
The thing for me is that is fulfilling, is the talented and genuine people I work with, and from doing the best work I can.
People always talk about how fulfillment coming from "Changing the world," and helping people, but really if you mesh with the people - that's fulfilling enough for me!
Yes. I'm very fortunate that work that I love to do is valued by society right now.
If I could choose to do whatever I want, I would be doing exactly what I'm doing right now (but perhaps in another town -- SF weather sucks).
I wrote down my story here awhile back: https://www.quora.com/How-did-you-realize-that-programming-w...
If I could choose to do whatever I want, I would be doing exactly what I'm doing right now (but perhaps in another town -- SF weather sucks).
I wrote down my story here awhile back: https://www.quora.com/How-did-you-realize-that-programming-w...
It's reasonably fulfilling. I build stuff, which is always good. I build stuff that people see and use and hopefully need and like. I occasionally solve interesting problems. And today I delivered my first pure Web Component after years of Angular.
It's not perfect, of course. I'd love to build games instead of banking websites. Or robots that do all the work so people don't have to work anymore. But compared to what most people do, my work is pretty good.
It's not perfect, of course. I'd love to build games instead of banking websites. Or robots that do all the work so people don't have to work anymore. But compared to what most people do, my work is pretty good.
I generally like what I do, I just don't make enough money. I am working on that second piece.
I do freelance writing, resume editing and I blog. I generally get to pick assignments I want to write for freelance writing. I enjoy doing resume editing because it helps someone get a better job. And blogging allows me to express myself while putting out useful information in problem spaces that I am personally interested in.
I do freelance writing, resume editing and I blog. I generally get to pick assignments I want to write for freelance writing. I enjoy doing resume editing because it helps someone get a better job. And blogging allows me to express myself while putting out useful information in problem spaces that I am personally interested in.
Most part of my work is to implement tactic/dark patterns that increase conversion rate for in-app purchase.
I found salvation in making my own app during weekends.
I found salvation in making my own app during weekends.
Like I've said before. At the end of the day only $$$ matters. Fulfilment doesn't pay rent or buy food unfortunately.
Nope. But I am making a lateral move from a position with no upward progression to one where I can become more of a generalist.
When I was young, yes.
Now that I'm in my 30s... not as much.
If yes, please explain what it is you do and why it is so fulfilling.
If no, please explain why not, and what type of work you think would be fulfilling?
I'm relatively new to the job market out of college, and it was a bit of a shock for me to see how many (in my opinion) bullshit jobs there are out there, to the point where I've had an extremely hard time finding work that could earn me a comfortable living (I don't need 6 figures) and align with my moral/ideological compass.