Larry Harvey, co-founder of Burning Man, has died(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Larry Harvey, co-founder of Burning Man, has died
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/28/obituaries/larry-harvey-burning-man-festival-dead-at-70.html
109 comments
While the Burning Man experience had been one of the unforgettable for me, I'd spent at least a day there forced to think about economics of it all. The ticket to BM cost big money for most people ($450 + $80 vehicle pass). For example, right now the tickets are priced at $1200 per person at the official website. This is a significant revenues for the organizers with 50,000 attendees. I couldn't wonder but thinking why cost is so high? There is virtually no services provided by the organizers except for portable potties (which BTW stinks all over and is perhaps the biggest factor in ruining the whole experience). Almost all of the labor and even lot of material is provided by largely unpaid volunteers. I understand there is grants made to many artists, but still I'm not sure if some organizers have probably created this whole scheme to make a living out of this. There is not much of an explanation on why tickets are so pricey while number of attendees have kept increasing every year while the costs should have almost remained more or less same because of lack of services.
I was also surprised that while folks are encouraged to give and take gifts and keep the whole thing free of cash, there is indeed commercial establishment to serve coffee. Why can't it be made free? A cup of coffee costs less than $1 to make (especially when you have volunteer labor). Even if a person drinks 5 cups a day, 5 times a week - it's still $25. For a ticket that costs $400+ isn't that doable that would allow to make the event truly cashless and keep the spirit of the event?
I was also surprised that while folks are encouraged to give and take gifts and keep the whole thing free of cash, there is indeed commercial establishment to serve coffee. Why can't it be made free? A cup of coffee costs less than $1 to make (especially when you have volunteer labor). Even if a person drinks 5 cups a day, 5 times a week - it's still $25. For a ticket that costs $400+ isn't that doable that would allow to make the event truly cashless and keep the spirit of the event?
This is a real downside of the festival. Just how financially burdensome it is filters and restricts the kinds of perspectives and culture that can enter. It's not just the ticket cost. It's the travel, the ability to leave work, family, and other obligations for so long, the typical costs of costumes and art projects and camp setup, the consumables... for fortunate attendees, these issues are trivial enough to perhaps not even notice. Most people are completely excluded by this.
The cult of positivity will want to justify and explain this away, but sometimes it's important to allow oneself to confront the negative things in life. Don't just blame the poor.
I highly recommend regional burns as a cheaper and more accessible alternative to Burning Man, which has been poisoned in many ways by its reputation as a club for the independently wealthy. A lot of people in attendance don't consider themselves that well off, but you really are if you can take that hit without consequences.
I think the regional burns really follow the intent and aspirations of Larry Harvey more closely than the big burn. But if you can afford it, definitely go to Burning Man and have a good time.
The cult of positivity will want to justify and explain this away, but sometimes it's important to allow oneself to confront the negative things in life. Don't just blame the poor.
I highly recommend regional burns as a cheaper and more accessible alternative to Burning Man, which has been poisoned in many ways by its reputation as a club for the independently wealthy. A lot of people in attendance don't consider themselves that well off, but you really are if you can take that hit without consequences.
I think the regional burns really follow the intent and aspirations of Larry Harvey more closely than the big burn. But if you can afford it, definitely go to Burning Man and have a good time.
Can confirm how awesome regional burns can be. I've never been to the "big burn", mainly because the expense and distance would make it very difficult for me to attend and actually participate in any meaningful way.
I live on the east coast of the US (can't imagine how much harder this would be for someone who doesn't even live on the same continent) and while I could probably budget the money and time to attend, it would be prohibitively expensive to bring much in the way of a camp.
But I've attended probably 10 or so burns of varying sizes on the east coast and I truly love doing so. It's still an undertaking but I've been able to collaborate with friends (as well as make lots of new ones) to run theme camps. It's an awesome outlet for our creative and armchair engineering efforts and with so many people from different backgrounds, there's so much to learn and be inspired by.
Just seeing some of the great ideas people come up with has helped me to become more confident in trying out ideas that otherwise would have never gone past the brainstorm phase. It may sound a bit rude, but when I see the art projects and interactive games and installations or just fun things to do, I think "these are just other regular chumps like me...so why the hell can't I do something cool for once??"
I think of it sort of like playing an instrument or singing. At some point, there can be validation and motivation to be found in performing in front of an audience. It gets you to practice and refine. It makes you feel good to share with folks who appreciate your efforts. And at burns, I can chat with people who think our interactive lights are awesome or are thrilled that we brought our karaoke gear out into the woods, or are eternally grateful that we are frying up wings and fries for anyone in need of a hot snack at 1am.
Then you multiply this by hundreds of people who also create spaces to dance, lounge, eat, chat, interact, play, or gape in amazement at what you can build when you get a bunch of nerds and hippies and engineers and chefs and artists and musicians (and just random people who didn't even know they had a talent) into the same space.
It's like summer camp for grownups. It's tons of work and tons of fun and I can't think of much else I've done that begins to touch the positive takeaway I bring home after each one (even if it's just learning my limitations).
I live on the east coast of the US (can't imagine how much harder this would be for someone who doesn't even live on the same continent) and while I could probably budget the money and time to attend, it would be prohibitively expensive to bring much in the way of a camp.
But I've attended probably 10 or so burns of varying sizes on the east coast and I truly love doing so. It's still an undertaking but I've been able to collaborate with friends (as well as make lots of new ones) to run theme camps. It's an awesome outlet for our creative and armchair engineering efforts and with so many people from different backgrounds, there's so much to learn and be inspired by.
Just seeing some of the great ideas people come up with has helped me to become more confident in trying out ideas that otherwise would have never gone past the brainstorm phase. It may sound a bit rude, but when I see the art projects and interactive games and installations or just fun things to do, I think "these are just other regular chumps like me...so why the hell can't I do something cool for once??"
I think of it sort of like playing an instrument or singing. At some point, there can be validation and motivation to be found in performing in front of an audience. It gets you to practice and refine. It makes you feel good to share with folks who appreciate your efforts. And at burns, I can chat with people who think our interactive lights are awesome or are thrilled that we brought our karaoke gear out into the woods, or are eternally grateful that we are frying up wings and fries for anyone in need of a hot snack at 1am.
Then you multiply this by hundreds of people who also create spaces to dance, lounge, eat, chat, interact, play, or gape in amazement at what you can build when you get a bunch of nerds and hippies and engineers and chefs and artists and musicians (and just random people who didn't even know they had a talent) into the same space.
It's like summer camp for grownups. It's tons of work and tons of fun and I can't think of much else I've done that begins to touch the positive takeaway I bring home after each one (even if it's just learning my limitations).
no need to speculate, the financials are publicly reported: https://annualreport2016.burningman.org/financial-report/
edit: here is a breakdown of expenses from 2016: https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/
edit: here is a breakdown of expenses from 2016: https://burningman.org/expenses/expenses-2016/
For longest time BRC never released salaries of their ranking staff despite of pressure. In their yearly breakdown it can be clearly be seen that "payroll" and "management" is the overwhelmingly biggest component. It should also be noted that revenues have continued to increase massively year or year while cost of the services listed have remained more or less minor bleep on the balance sheet. For an organization with $35M in revenue in just a week and that everyone expects to be open and transparent, there is not much to be said.
take a look at page 7.
https://z9hbb3mwou383x1930ve0ugl-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
That doesn't have any more information. BRC has only agreed to disclose the pay for Jennifer Raiser because according to non-profit rules they had to disclose pay of at least one main person. She is treasurer making $111K. Not bad for a employee organizing once a year single week event, especially when the organizers asks everyone else to be volunteer. I've been part of several non-profits where treasurers were volunteers and got paid exactly $0 for year around activities.
Despite of constant asks over the years, BRC has not agreed to breakdown their "payroll" category of expenses which is left to imagination for what goes to temporary staff vs BRC people. These secrets I would least expect from great non-profits let alone from Burning Man founders.
Despite of constant asks over the years, BRC has not agreed to breakdown their "payroll" category of expenses which is left to imagination for what goes to temporary staff vs BRC people. These secrets I would least expect from great non-profits let alone from Burning Man founders.
Maybe the burning man people are overpayed, but being the treasurer of an organization that, as you say, deals with 35 million dollars every year sounds like a full time all year round position to me, regardless of when or how the money is made.
The work load here isn’t proportional to revenue, it’s proportional to services provided by the organizers - which is extraordinarily minimum. The revenue simply drops in via website that is active only few days a year. I absolutely disagree that any person involved for Burning Man should be full time employee of any kind. I would also not expect any sort of “executives” let alone paid folks for Burning Man when the entire premise of event rests on volunteering. Do you think no one with great qualifications in the world is willing to be volunteer to make a website for Burning Man or be a treasurer for the event?
> Do you think no one with great qualifications in the world is willing to be volunteer to make a website for Burning Man or be a treasurer for the event?
I honestly don't know. What I do know is that if I was in charge of selecting a treasurer to manage $35M I would definitely prefer it to be a paid position, especially if the money all comes in and goes out in a short timespan. I might trust volunteers with trash pickup, but this is 35 million bucks.
If I go to burning man with 70000 other people then $1.59 of my ticket price is going to pay this lady, that's less than a single cup of dusty coffee or a bag of ice! I'm okay with that. Handling 35 million dollars in a year sounds like a daunting task, doing it in a week sounds downright insane, I don't think it's unreasonable to pay someone a living wage to do this job. I also hope the people driving around sucking shit out of the porta potties are getting paid and I would not like to see that be a volunteer position.
Like I said, I have no idea if the other administrators of burning man are overpayed, but I do suspect running an event of this scale is much closer to a year-round job than you surmise, and in the real world being "radically self reliant" usually means maintaining an actual paying job somewhere.
I honestly don't know. What I do know is that if I was in charge of selecting a treasurer to manage $35M I would definitely prefer it to be a paid position, especially if the money all comes in and goes out in a short timespan. I might trust volunteers with trash pickup, but this is 35 million bucks.
If I go to burning man with 70000 other people then $1.59 of my ticket price is going to pay this lady, that's less than a single cup of dusty coffee or a bag of ice! I'm okay with that. Handling 35 million dollars in a year sounds like a daunting task, doing it in a week sounds downright insane, I don't think it's unreasonable to pay someone a living wage to do this job. I also hope the people driving around sucking shit out of the porta potties are getting paid and I would not like to see that be a volunteer position.
Like I said, I have no idea if the other administrators of burning man are overpayed, but I do suspect running an event of this scale is much closer to a year-round job than you surmise, and in the real world being "radically self reliant" usually means maintaining an actual paying job somewhere.
> but being the treasurer of an organization
That's immaterial to the discussion. The point is that management rakes in the lion's share of a $35M revenue made largely at the expense of people paying well over $1k to attend an event which is sold as non-profit, non-capitalist and volunteer-only. Naturally, people need to get paid for the job they do, and organizer's do have the right and even obligation to profit from their initiatives, but questions do pop out regarding the ethical implications of doing so under what appear to be false pretenses.
That's immaterial to the discussion. The point is that management rakes in the lion's share of a $35M revenue made largely at the expense of people paying well over $1k to attend an event which is sold as non-profit, non-capitalist and volunteer-only. Naturally, people need to get paid for the job they do, and organizer's do have the right and even obligation to profit from their initiatives, but questions do pop out regarding the ethical implications of doing so under what appear to be false pretenses.
If you pay peanuts on average you get monkeys. Competent non-profit management people are not exactly the same as competent for profit management but there’s substantial overlap on the skills involved. All of the highly paid people doing Burning Man could get better paid jobs tomorrow.
If you want to do something like Burning Man yourself but with lower paid permanent staff no one is going to stop you. Have fun.
If you want to do something like Burning Man yourself but with lower paid permanent staff no one is going to stop you. Have fun.
This is untrue from my experience of interacting and be part of several non-profits. Most of these non-profits have actual executives from well known companies in similar positions contributing their time to be unpaid volunteer. Great non-profits I know have largely unpaid executive staff. When I see non-profits with significantly paid executive staff, my heart sinks and I would rather stay away from them. More often than not these are pseudo non-profits exploiting holes in the tax laws and essentially getting tax free revenues to pay themselves.
Fun fact: several racial supremists, left as well as right extremists personalities don’t actually have full time jobs. They are typically head of some “non-profit” created specifically for them where rich people can donate money and they get this money as salary to “run” the non-profit.
Fun fact: several racial supremists, left as well as right extremists personalities don’t actually have full time jobs. They are typically head of some “non-profit” created specifically for them where rich people can donate money and they get this money as salary to “run” the non-profit.
Are these great non-profits that you are familiar with large organisations? I’ve known people whose uncompensated non-profit work supported an e tire school though the other ten or so people involved did about half of the work. That kind of organisation does not scale. You can’t run a summer camp without some full time people, never mind a a soup kitchen, homeless shelter or university.
The number of people who are capable of running an organisation of size X who don’t need to be compensated for doing so is way lower than those capable of running an organisation of size X. Being on the board of a prestigious organisation is a great way to network, gain exposure and help the organisation but if no one’s getting paid it’s an upper middle class or higher monopoly. That’s fine if we’re talking about an arts organisation, like the NY Philharmonic or MOMA, where the primary qualification to be on the board is the ability to write a very large cheque but if there’s a more concrete goal it would be better to pay more to get the people who can do it well and do it full time.
On the fun fact, single issue organisations political organisations are as legitimate a non-profit as Democratic Party think tanks like Brookings or Niskanen or Libertarian ones like Cato. The ACLU, NRA and NAACP all started off as small non-profits one time. I hope the left and right’s respective racists don’t grow any more organisation but they have no less a right to the tax status than Soros’ or Koch’s pet organisations.
The number of people who are capable of running an organisation of size X who don’t need to be compensated for doing so is way lower than those capable of running an organisation of size X. Being on the board of a prestigious organisation is a great way to network, gain exposure and help the organisation but if no one’s getting paid it’s an upper middle class or higher monopoly. That’s fine if we’re talking about an arts organisation, like the NY Philharmonic or MOMA, where the primary qualification to be on the board is the ability to write a very large cheque but if there’s a more concrete goal it would be better to pay more to get the people who can do it well and do it full time.
On the fun fact, single issue organisations political organisations are as legitimate a non-profit as Democratic Party think tanks like Brookings or Niskanen or Libertarian ones like Cato. The ACLU, NRA and NAACP all started off as small non-profits one time. I hope the left and right’s respective racists don’t grow any more organisation but they have no less a right to the tax status than Soros’ or Koch’s pet organisations.
I see 26 individuals listed with salaries totaling $2,392,870. 9 board members are unpaid.
The highest paid employee not designated as "key" made $141,290.
The highest paid employee not designated as "key" made $141,290.
I've been part of several non-profits where treasurers were volunteers and got paid exactly $0 for year around activities.
Were they responsible for (your numbers) $60MM/yr?
Were they responsible for (your numbers) $60MM/yr?
Not bad for a employee organizing once a year single week event
This is flatly, obviously, knowably wrong. Burning Man organizes dozens of events all around the world year-round.
This is flatly, obviously, knowably wrong. Burning Man organizes dozens of events all around the world year-round.
No it doesn't. The Burning Man Project has virtually nothing to do with the regional burns around the world, which is a sore point for a lot of regional organizers. They ask that the regionals follow their rules, then provide virtually no support for them, while simultaneously bragging about how they've spread the culture worldwide.
Regionals are run by organizations that are completely separate from the Burning Man Org.
Regionals are run by organizations that are completely separate from the Burning Man Org.
Most tickets are priced at $425. The $1200 tickets are for people who can afford them but couldn't get them at $425. Some of the $$ from the $1200 ones goes to support the low-income ticket program fwiw.
I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.
I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.
> I will say, if using a portapotty "ruins" the experience for you, you're going to be better off going to an event where you can stay in a hotel, vs a big camping trip to the desert.
I have heard same sentiment from other defensive folks. My argument is that when most people are paying $450 for a ticket, organizers ought to provide better solution for toilet. I am not asking for more services or 5-Star hotel grade services. Just something that is less stinky, more hygienic. In the financial disclosure by BRC, you would notice that a very tiny fraction of the revenues goes to low-income subsides (it’s essentially first block of $80 tickets) and artists grants. Even tinier fraction goes to providing toilets. Most of the money goes to “payroll” which remains undisclosed.
I never went to burning man, but I definitely want to attend one of those years.
That being said, I cannot stand the Koolaid that you basically hear from everyone coming back from Burning man. It usually breaks down to the fact that Burning man is a perfect inclusive society and that everyone loves happy there without money and that's what society should be.
SURE, but never forget that the extremmely vast majority of the people at Burning man are rich yuppies from San Francisco or Bohemians//Artists that managed to find a way to live on the cheap. I'm pretty sure you will not find a lot of representation of average americans that can get only 10 days off a year.
I would love to live the experience of it, but let's not forget what it is. A yuppie festival mainly targeted at the richest part of society
That being said, I cannot stand the Koolaid that you basically hear from everyone coming back from Burning man. It usually breaks down to the fact that Burning man is a perfect inclusive society and that everyone loves happy there without money and that's what society should be.
SURE, but never forget that the extremmely vast majority of the people at Burning man are rich yuppies from San Francisco or Bohemians//Artists that managed to find a way to live on the cheap. I'm pretty sure you will not find a lot of representation of average americans that can get only 10 days off a year.
I would love to live the experience of it, but let's not forget what it is. A yuppie festival mainly targeted at the richest part of society
It is weird, kind of reflects SF city vibes at times.
Lots of money, large income gaps, insane creativity, drugs, non functioning management, quite dirty and disguising in some places, yet somethings totally blow your mind.
A rich yippie paradise indeed.
Lots of money, large income gaps, insane creativity, drugs, non functioning management, quite dirty and disguising in some places, yet somethings totally blow your mind.
A rich yippie paradise indeed.
It would seem you haven’t done a lot of event planning. If I am wrong, I am sure Burning Man would love for you to come up with an alternate budget. Managing that many people in a space that large for so many days requires world class planning, insurance, expenses, and logistics.
Burning Man is volunteer driven event. Virtually everyone managing anything there signed up to do that free of charge. The entire idea is about army of free workers coming out to essentially self-manage.
There are only few things organizers are actually involved in: getting permits from BLM, arranging porta potties, artists grants, website, center stage, coffee serving and volunteer signups.
There are only few things organizers are actually involved in: getting permits from BLM, arranging porta potties, artists grants, website, center stage, coffee serving and volunteer signups.
The cost is high due to basic economics. The BLM permit doesn't allow them to let in as many people as now want to come. When they charged a "reasonable" price all the tickets got bought up instantly and people complained about not being able to get in without paying a ridiculous markup to scalpers. Rather than let resellers reap all the benefit of their event, they charged more the next year (especially for last-minute purchases, which complicate planning) and still sold out. So they kept raising the prices until most of the excess demand had been soaked up. Now people who care a LOT about going to BM pay a high price and/or book early, people who care less are dissuaded by too-high prices, and demand more-or-less matches supply. The extra income means they can spend a bit more on artistic grants to make the event somewhat more worth the high price...and also bump salaries and profits a bit.
I believe most of the money goes to the Bureau of Land Management, and all the equipment they have to rent for set up, security, and clean up (most at the behest of said Bureau).
Looks like Burning Man pays about $2M to BLM for the event out of their revenues of $12M. So it's like 20% of revenue, not "most" of the revenue. Also, much of the cleaning, setup etc is done by volunteers if I understand correctly.
In 2016, BRC paid BLM $2,199,959 to cover the costs of staffing the weeklong arts and lifestyle festival, which also has a set-up, breakdown, and cleanup schedule lasting more than two months. When all stages of the 2016 event were complete, including post-event inspection, the BLM had spent $2,166,127.41 on the event, leaving BRC with a refund of $33,831.59.
https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-b...
In 2016, BRC paid BLM $2,199,959 to cover the costs of staffing the weeklong arts and lifestyle festival, which also has a set-up, breakdown, and cleanup schedule lasting more than two months. When all stages of the 2016 event were complete, including post-event inspection, the BLM had spent $2,166,127.41 on the event, leaving BRC with a refund of $33,831.59.
https://www.blm.gov/press-release/final-cost-recovery-2016-b...
Poor people are so often indignant - little do they know they're indignant because they are surrounded by people who think just like them. Crabs in a bucket [0]. The sad thing is - they're not upset that the system as a whole perhaps sucks - just that somebody has it better. So selfish.
When they are gifted a chance to experience something different, they can't help themselves, their indignation shines through even then! That's your post in a nutshell.
People who are happy, people who've worked their way into money, success, etc, want you to succeed too - so that you don't waste your life on petty things like 'coffee should've been free'. It is just so incredibly hard to get through to you when you're disempowered, stuck in negativity.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
When they are gifted a chance to experience something different, they can't help themselves, their indignation shines through even then! That's your post in a nutshell.
People who are happy, people who've worked their way into money, success, etc, want you to succeed too - so that you don't waste your life on petty things like 'coffee should've been free'. It is just so incredibly hard to get through to you when you're disempowered, stuck in negativity.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
This isn't about what someone can afford. It's that an event focused entirely around charity and anti-capitalism is supposedly ripping people off and not using their revenue to improve the experience for attendees.
You, I, and probably most people in this thread can afford a ticket and a cup of coffee. You're missing the point.
You, I, and probably most people in this thread can afford a ticket and a cup of coffee. You're missing the point.
I had many enlightenments from burning man and I hope to have many more; the participants are worthy successors once they pick up the dance, and so I think the event will go on.
One of my favorite memories is an early night at my first burn, there was a man on a stool with a walkie-talkie checking ID to enter the base of The Man.
I didn’t have my ID on me, but I patiently lined up with everyone else, planning on explaining that I only wanted to see the inside with my friends and wasn’t planning on drinking tonight at all.
Before reaching the man on the stool, someone in front of us made a break for it past him. He barked angrily at the guy, grabbing at him and shouting into his handset.
When it came to me, at this point I thought my chances were slim and I would have to sit this attraction out without an ID. I explained my situation to him anyways.
I will never forgot his reply: “I am just fucking with you all” he said, a twinkle in his eye. Indeed, there was only an air of official-ness around his outfit and stool, he had no real authority. We all just accepted a queue for ID checks voluntarily.
I walked past and learned more about society from that one prank than I had from any textbook or class since. And that is just one experience.
I hope to carry that on that tradition. There is a real magic in culture, and I am thankful that Larry stumbled upon it and decided to share. Thank you, and thanks to everyone who keeps it going!
One of my favorite memories is an early night at my first burn, there was a man on a stool with a walkie-talkie checking ID to enter the base of The Man.
I didn’t have my ID on me, but I patiently lined up with everyone else, planning on explaining that I only wanted to see the inside with my friends and wasn’t planning on drinking tonight at all.
Before reaching the man on the stool, someone in front of us made a break for it past him. He barked angrily at the guy, grabbing at him and shouting into his handset.
When it came to me, at this point I thought my chances were slim and I would have to sit this attraction out without an ID. I explained my situation to him anyways.
I will never forgot his reply: “I am just fucking with you all” he said, a twinkle in his eye. Indeed, there was only an air of official-ness around his outfit and stool, he had no real authority. We all just accepted a queue for ID checks voluntarily.
I walked past and learned more about society from that one prank than I had from any textbook or class since. And that is just one experience.
I hope to carry that on that tradition. There is a real magic in culture, and I am thankful that Larry stumbled upon it and decided to share. Thank you, and thanks to everyone who keeps it going!
The opening chapter of Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian has a story like that except a bit more intense.
Indeed, when you realize how much of human experience runs on autopilot and you try to consciously evolve past that, you can feel manic and begin to feel like anything is possible.
Indeed, when you realize how much of human experience runs on autopilot and you try to consciously evolve past that, you can feel manic and begin to feel like anything is possible.
> begin to feel like anything is possible
You can do whatever you want. As long as you can bear the consequences.
You can do whatever you want. As long as you can bear the consequences.
The consequences are usually an illusion.
But if you make a habit of testing them you'll find the ones that aren't pretty quick.
Such is the peril of living a full life.
Not burning man but I had an amazingly similar experience of normed compliance.
I was standing outside a bar waiting for a friend. A couple stopped to show me their ideas at random. I was so shocked I just muttered 'oh no you are fine'. Within about 10 seconds, there was a line of other people waiting to go into the bar trying to hand me their ID's.
No request, no effort, just...people assume authority and comply. Taught me something I have been trying to watch myself do and break a habit of since then.
I was standing outside a bar waiting for a friend. A couple stopped to show me their ideas at random. I was so shocked I just muttered 'oh no you are fine'. Within about 10 seconds, there was a line of other people waiting to go into the bar trying to hand me their ID's.
No request, no effort, just...people assume authority and comply. Taught me something I have been trying to watch myself do and break a habit of since then.
> I will never forgot his reply: “I am just fucking with you all” he said, a twinkle in his eye. Indeed, there was only an air of official-ness around his outfit and stool, he had no real authority. We all just accepted a queue for ID checks voluntarily.
Reminds of my visit to Hacking At Random in 2009. Their entrance had an X-ray scanner where you could scan your own bags, and if that wasn't enough to make you feel safe, there were latex gloves so you could ask another participant to give you a body cavity search.
Reminds of my visit to Hacking At Random in 2009. Their entrance had an X-ray scanner where you could scan your own bags, and if that wasn't enough to make you feel safe, there were latex gloves so you could ask another participant to give you a body cavity search.
hah I love it.
A friend once did this at burning man. He was in a tower at an intersection with a light and a megaphone and as cars went by he'd tell them to stop or go or wait. It was overall pretty hilarious (and before people get on me about safety - this was not in a busy part of the city and you're supposed to go ~5 mph inside the city so there was no real safety issue fucking with traffic flow)
A friend once did this at burning man. He was in a tower at an intersection with a light and a megaphone and as cars went by he'd tell them to stop or go or wait. It was overall pretty hilarious (and before people get on me about safety - this was not in a busy part of the city and you're supposed to go ~5 mph inside the city so there was no real safety issue fucking with traffic flow)
I don't get this story. Why did you have IDs if you didn't need them?
You still need to ask for ID if you are serving alchohol to strangers, since it’s still in Nevada. People often have an ID on them or a photocopy on their mug to show to people giving out drinks. Many people run a lot of exquisite bars as gifts to the community and the law doesn’t care if you are charging for alchohol.
The man on the stool was asking for ID’s as a prank. People assumed he was legit and you needed an ID.
The man on the stool was asking for ID’s as a prank. People assumed he was legit and you needed an ID.
Burning Man has been one of the 3 most important events in my life ! I never met Larry Harvey but he seemed like an amazing man. I learned so much about myself, life and everything in between going to it. I've gone almost 7 times, but havent gone in the last 5 years.
I really loved some of the snippets from this article about Larry. The bit about someone waking him up at 4am with a chainsaw to work on an ice sculpture made me laugh outloud. Definitely par for course at Burning Man, and his reaction says alot about him. RIP
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/larry-harvey-founder-and-le...
I really loved some of the snippets from this article about Larry. The bit about someone waking him up at 4am with a chainsaw to work on an ice sculpture made me laugh outloud. Definitely par for course at Burning Man, and his reaction says alot about him. RIP
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/larry-harvey-founder-and-le...
Larry's realized vision of community has inspired so much creativity that it's impossible to do justice to his impact on our world in a short comment.
Personally, I met my wife and many friends through his indirect action, and I've become much more creative and understanding of those around me in the process. There must be many more here with similar stories.
Personally, I met my wife and many friends through his indirect action, and I've become much more creative and understanding of those around me in the process. There must be many more here with similar stories.
I didn't meet my wife there, but it was there, while sitting in Jeremy Lutes's Lily Pond[1], that my girlfriend and I decided that we wanted to start a family together. 15+ years, 3 kids, and one wedding later, we'll never know whether we'd have ended up together regardless of Burning Man, but it was that night that we knew for sure.
1 https://www.leonardo.info/gallery/burningman/lutes.html
1 https://www.leonardo.info/gallery/burningman/lutes.html
Could you go into this more? I've never been to BM but have always been curious what people have gotten out of it.
It's definitely a transformative experience. I guess it's the kind of thing that people get out of hallucinogens: for a little while you get to step outside of the context whose cues shape how you behave and think.
Which I'm worried may make no sense, so let me be more specific. One way to explain it: at work, you're work you. At home, you're family you. In each context, you've developed a set of behaviors and mental habits. What happens if you put those all down? Who are you now?
I happened to go on a 70-mile wilderness hike on the Pacific Crest Trail the week before going to Burning Man 1997. The experiences were wildly different: one was peace and nature and quiet; the other was a beautifully insane party filled with extraordinary art. But both had similar effects on me. I got to step outside myself and be a part of something extraordinary. I couldn't rely on my old ways of interpreting people; I had to see them anew.
I still remember flying back to Chicago on a red eye. I got into Midway airport, which at the time had all the charm of a poorly maintained bus station, and hopped on the L slightly before dawn. It was filled with sleepy commuters, all in that hazy, slightly vulnerable state we're in before we've really woken up. And I was filled with a deep love for humanity, for each one of those beautiful dreamers going about their lives. I could have hugged them.
Of course, those transformations fade. When we come back to old places, we slip back into our old selves. But not entirely. Some of the magic sticks with us.
Which I'm worried may make no sense, so let me be more specific. One way to explain it: at work, you're work you. At home, you're family you. In each context, you've developed a set of behaviors and mental habits. What happens if you put those all down? Who are you now?
I happened to go on a 70-mile wilderness hike on the Pacific Crest Trail the week before going to Burning Man 1997. The experiences were wildly different: one was peace and nature and quiet; the other was a beautifully insane party filled with extraordinary art. But both had similar effects on me. I got to step outside myself and be a part of something extraordinary. I couldn't rely on my old ways of interpreting people; I had to see them anew.
I still remember flying back to Chicago on a red eye. I got into Midway airport, which at the time had all the charm of a poorly maintained bus station, and hopped on the L slightly before dawn. It was filled with sleepy commuters, all in that hazy, slightly vulnerable state we're in before we've really woken up. And I was filled with a deep love for humanity, for each one of those beautiful dreamers going about their lives. I could have hugged them.
Of course, those transformations fade. When we come back to old places, we slip back into our old selves. But not entirely. Some of the magic sticks with us.
I still remember flying back to Chicago on a red eye. I got into Midway airport, which at the time had all the charm of a poorly maintained bus station, and hopped on the L slightly before dawn. It was filled with sleepy commuters, all in that hazy, slightly vulnerable state we're in before we've really woken up. And I was filled with a deep love for humanity, for each one of those beautiful dreamers going about their lives. I could have hugged them.
I smile with so much solidarity reading this. This is one of those anecdotes that makes so much sense to someone who's been there, but probably sounds like gibberish to someone who hasn't. These are the words of someone who's been there.
I smile with so much solidarity reading this. This is one of those anecdotes that makes so much sense to someone who's been there, but probably sounds like gibberish to someone who hasn't. These are the words of someone who's been there.
%100 agreed. Thanks for sharing your experience.
One of my favorite quotes from Blood Meridian (which was published before Burning Man was a thing; I have no reason to believe it influenced Burning Man but the two are linked in my mind because of the setting and because this quote always makes me think of it)
The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it all from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning.
I would note that there is a difference between experiential knowledge and propositional or factual knowledge - you can read as many books about dance as you want, but none of them will tell you what it feels like to dance. In the same way, everyone sort of knows, on some level, that essentially everything about society is arbitrary. Your clothes, your food, your house, your job, everything is the result of path-dependent evolution that didn't have to end up how it did.
Ok, great, so you can know that just from using logic, but how can you feel it? Burning Man is one answer to that question. It lets you experience the "fevered dream" that is reality.
The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it all from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning.
I would note that there is a difference between experiential knowledge and propositional or factual knowledge - you can read as many books about dance as you want, but none of them will tell you what it feels like to dance. In the same way, everyone sort of knows, on some level, that essentially everything about society is arbitrary. Your clothes, your food, your house, your job, everything is the result of path-dependent evolution that didn't have to end up how it did.
Ok, great, so you can know that just from using logic, but how can you feel it? Burning Man is one answer to that question. It lets you experience the "fevered dream" that is reality.
I think the word "arbitrary" isn't quite right.
> Your clothes, your food, your house, your job, everything is the result of path-dependent evolution that didn't have to end up how it did.
For example, we have a lot of wheat in our diet because wheat was convenient to grow in certain climates, and the countries that grew it ended up colonizing half the world (I'm not a food historian, but for argument's sake this is probably correct enough).
So there is a reason why we eat a lot of wheat; there is a reason why our clothes are cut the way they are; there is a reason why our cities look the way they do. Whether we know it or not, there is a good reason for almost everything. It may be the result of path-dependent evolution, but it isn't arbitrary.
I think Burning Man errs far too much on the side of "everything about society is made up, and you can make it different". There are lots of rules about how the tapestry is woven that aren't made up. If you want to change the world you have to be aware that many (most?) things happen for a good reason. It's not just all imaginary.
> Your clothes, your food, your house, your job, everything is the result of path-dependent evolution that didn't have to end up how it did.
For example, we have a lot of wheat in our diet because wheat was convenient to grow in certain climates, and the countries that grew it ended up colonizing half the world (I'm not a food historian, but for argument's sake this is probably correct enough).
So there is a reason why we eat a lot of wheat; there is a reason why our clothes are cut the way they are; there is a reason why our cities look the way they do. Whether we know it or not, there is a good reason for almost everything. It may be the result of path-dependent evolution, but it isn't arbitrary.
I think Burning Man errs far too much on the side of "everything about society is made up, and you can make it different". There are lots of rules about how the tapestry is woven that aren't made up. If you want to change the world you have to be aware that many (most?) things happen for a good reason. It's not just all imaginary.
Personal anecdotes asside, burning man is about community at scale IMHO. 70k people who are genuinely interested you.
You get back a multiple of what you invest in terms of participation, so that has a great network effect.
My advice? Go one year with a friend and spend at least a day volunteering. It's great to see the faces of people you help in one way or another.
You get back a multiple of what you invest in terms of participation, so that has a great network effect.
My advice? Go one year with a friend and spend at least a day volunteering. It's great to see the faces of people you help in one way or another.
In many ways, it fills roles missing in modern life. Many of the concepts it embodies -- an arduous shared experience, a festival, a mythic journey, a deeply connected and engaged community (across multiple orders of magnitude) -- are shared traits that have existed across many cultures, and can be found by the right seeker on playa. They're also traits that are increasingly being lost in atomized, globalized culture.
The fundamental unit of organization is the 'camp', which is a purpose-driven group of people who live together for the duration of the event. They come in all shapes and sizes, some dedicated to building massive, elaborate sculptures, some to delivering letters, some to running (free) bars, some to building the roads.
Regardless of purpose though, the people making up a camp have to survive together in a very extreme environment - massive temperature fluctuations, huge wind loads, ultra-fine dust, no water, 0% humidity, scorching UV, bad or no cell phone coverage, etc. This is a serious challenge that requires communal effort on difficult (and enjoyable, to some) challenges, from engineering wind resistant, quickly-deployable temporary structures, to managing hundreds of gallons of water supplies, or setting up a temporary electrical grid.
This collaborative problem solving, and on problems of survival, no less, engenders community in a powerful, likely genetic way. People form deep connections. And it also drives growth in people who are forced to adapt to environments they'd never experienced before.
That's all infrastructure though, (nominally) to support the payload of event, which is the playa. Among other things, an enormous, open air gallery, and ideal canvas for some of the most cutting edge art in the world. Sometimes literally -- due to the extensive waiver you grant when you buy the ticket, things there can be dangerous in a way you'd never experience in a corporate-controlled environment[1].
Enormous, climbable art pieces, spinning metal platforms, towering infernos, a tradition of light art that has grown all the way to the Bay Bridge. Sudden, inexplicable interactive performance art, a symphony orchestra, and probably the largest gathering of fire spinners in the world. Creating, and appreciating these pieces is the real kernel of the community. Appreciating inspires new creating. People learn to weld, to solder, to dance, to use CNC tools, to 3D design, to sew. They use skills they already have and never got to use in such a context - fixing an old truck for a mutant vehicle platform, writing a simulator for their LED code.
People pour hours of work (not to mention their love, and money) into the art and the camps supporting it. Finally after months, if not years of work driven by nothing more than a desire to see it done, everything comes together for a riotous, joyful week. People have fun. They appreciate each others art, and bask in the pride of their own successful creations. They talk shop, and commiserate the failures. They get drunk, for free, on other people's alcohol.
This is not to say that everyone's experience is like this. Lots of people have very valid bad experiences. In a population now encompassing of hundreds of thousands, it's hard to avoid. And it's certainly not for everyone. If your festival is Oktoberfest, or your community is your church, or your mythic journey is your startup, that's fine and good. But the people who have good experiences often have them like this.
There is, of course, lots of writing on this subject. Dustin Moskovitz has a fun blog post about it, and there have been several books.
=====
[1]: Maybe too dangerous - there is deep and ongoing pain in the community over the man who managed to kill himself on Burn night last year.
The fundamental unit of organization is the 'camp', which is a purpose-driven group of people who live together for the duration of the event. They come in all shapes and sizes, some dedicated to building massive, elaborate sculptures, some to delivering letters, some to running (free) bars, some to building the roads.
Regardless of purpose though, the people making up a camp have to survive together in a very extreme environment - massive temperature fluctuations, huge wind loads, ultra-fine dust, no water, 0% humidity, scorching UV, bad or no cell phone coverage, etc. This is a serious challenge that requires communal effort on difficult (and enjoyable, to some) challenges, from engineering wind resistant, quickly-deployable temporary structures, to managing hundreds of gallons of water supplies, or setting up a temporary electrical grid.
This collaborative problem solving, and on problems of survival, no less, engenders community in a powerful, likely genetic way. People form deep connections. And it also drives growth in people who are forced to adapt to environments they'd never experienced before.
That's all infrastructure though, (nominally) to support the payload of event, which is the playa. Among other things, an enormous, open air gallery, and ideal canvas for some of the most cutting edge art in the world. Sometimes literally -- due to the extensive waiver you grant when you buy the ticket, things there can be dangerous in a way you'd never experience in a corporate-controlled environment[1].
Enormous, climbable art pieces, spinning metal platforms, towering infernos, a tradition of light art that has grown all the way to the Bay Bridge. Sudden, inexplicable interactive performance art, a symphony orchestra, and probably the largest gathering of fire spinners in the world. Creating, and appreciating these pieces is the real kernel of the community. Appreciating inspires new creating. People learn to weld, to solder, to dance, to use CNC tools, to 3D design, to sew. They use skills they already have and never got to use in such a context - fixing an old truck for a mutant vehicle platform, writing a simulator for their LED code.
People pour hours of work (not to mention their love, and money) into the art and the camps supporting it. Finally after months, if not years of work driven by nothing more than a desire to see it done, everything comes together for a riotous, joyful week. People have fun. They appreciate each others art, and bask in the pride of their own successful creations. They talk shop, and commiserate the failures. They get drunk, for free, on other people's alcohol.
This is not to say that everyone's experience is like this. Lots of people have very valid bad experiences. In a population now encompassing of hundreds of thousands, it's hard to avoid. And it's certainly not for everyone. If your festival is Oktoberfest, or your community is your church, or your mythic journey is your startup, that's fine and good. But the people who have good experiences often have them like this.
There is, of course, lots of writing on this subject. Dustin Moskovitz has a fun blog post about it, and there have been several books.
=====
[1]: Maybe too dangerous - there is deep and ongoing pain in the community over the man who managed to kill himself on Burn night last year.
I think this is a really great summary of burning man and what it aspires to be.
Well there's a group sex tent that is interesting to check out. Your best shot at getting in is being part of good looking couple though. Quite the experience to have sex surrounded by dozens of other beautiful, young couples having sex. Happens elsewhere but the Burn is your best shot.
Back in the day (around 1995) I used to go to parties that Larry Harvey and Marion (who called herself Maid Marion at the time) used to also go to.
I was told that the original burning man was an effigy of Larry's ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.
At the time you could even find this story online in a number of places. Mysteriously, it seems to have been purged from the web. But I still believe it to be true, based on who told me and when.
I was told that the original burning man was an effigy of Larry's ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend.
At the time you could even find this story online in a number of places. Mysteriously, it seems to have been purged from the web. But I still believe it to be true, based on who told me and when.
RIP. He leaves ripples bouncing around and amongst countless peoples' minds, reverberating with the realization that there are no limits on what is possible.
Thank you Larry.
Burning Man photos that are favorites of mine by many photographers:
http://www.joelparkerhenderson.com/burningman/
Photos are by many people during many years.
Burning Man photos that are favorites of mine by many photographers:
http://www.joelparkerhenderson.com/burningman/
Photos are by many people during many years.
Burning Man has changed my life. It will continue to for as long as I live.
I went in 2007 and keep saying I will go again.
Last year I watched all the videos here https://burners.me/shadow-history/ and found it very interesting and intriguing. An insider's perspective on the BM organization. Downloading the slide decks gives an overview of the materials.
Last year I watched all the videos here https://burners.me/shadow-history/ and found it very interesting and intriguing. An insider's perspective on the BM organization. Downloading the slide decks gives an overview of the materials.
> anti-establishment, anti-consumerist
Can't help but feel there is something insincere in that statement, I mean somehow it seems like exactly the product of consumerist society to me (I mean the attendance cost, cost of setting up you "booth" (?) there), so I wonder if somebody feels the same/gave it more thought.
Can't help but feel there is something insincere in that statement, I mean somehow it seems like exactly the product of consumerist society to me (I mean the attendance cost, cost of setting up you "booth" (?) there), so I wonder if somebody feels the same/gave it more thought.
A beautiful article of a beautiful man. So it goes. I will remain forever* transformed due to him.
* Until I die, I suppose :)
* Until I die, I suppose :)
Is it ever brought up whether Burning Man is based on the Zozobra?
more on Larry : https://larry.burningman.org/
But will he be cremated?
You must pay to read about a great man who's vision went beyond money and to the core of humanity. Paywalls suck.
Official org announcement: https://journal.burningman.org/2018/04/news/official-announc...
You can read about him for free elsewhere.
I realize there are other ways to read about him. I've received the email, posts, messages. I don't like that there is a paywall for an obituary. For an article like "Top 10 most popular puppies" I understand the paywall, who doesn't want to look at puppies? But the death of a person that has affected so many people's lives, like mine, why is there a paywall?
Quality journalism costs money.
Someone had to be paid to write the obit, someone was paid to edit it, someone was paid to put it online, the servers cost money, so does the power, so does the connectivity and other infrastructure to put it online - none of this is free - heck, 30 years ago, you would have needed to buy a paper to read it.
Do I like the rates the NYT charges? no, I'd be happy to pay 5 dollars a month so I can access the top 5 newspapers of record though.
Someone had to be paid to write the obit, someone was paid to edit it, someone was paid to put it online, the servers cost money, so does the power, so does the connectivity and other infrastructure to put it online - none of this is free - heck, 30 years ago, you would have needed to buy a paper to read it.
Do I like the rates the NYT charges? no, I'd be happy to pay 5 dollars a month so I can access the top 5 newspapers of record though.
“I don’t think black folks like to camp as much as white folks”. - Larry Harvey on why there are so few black people at Burning Man[0]
[0]https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/sep/04/burning-man-...
[0]https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/sep/04/burning-man-...
As a person of South Asian decent, I can validate how few people
I attribute it to a first and second generation community - if you already have a community to call your own, you are less likely to search for others. I’m alternative enough to be interested; and don’t identify with that cultural background much.
Often I’m alone in alternative subcultures - gaming, the burn, the poly scene, etc.
I attribute it to a first and second generation community - if you already have a community to call your own, you are less likely to search for others. I’m alternative enough to be interested; and don’t identify with that cultural background much.
Often I’m alone in alternative subcultures - gaming, the burn, the poly scene, etc.
You have to be somewhat privileged to have this level of self-actualizing activity on your activity list.
really?
This is a cute story, but for folks considering attending bartering of any kind at the burn is not a thing.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16950705 and marked it off-topic.
You are right about this and we were both surprised at how sober Burning Man was. The media literally used the phrase "drug-fueled orgy" to describe Burning Man that year. Given all the nudity and psychedelic nature of the event I can see how one could come to this conclusion. Well, that and the fact that someone probably re-gifted our drug-laced snack for a masturbation session. Seriously there was an actual tent where you could trade snacks, pancakes, whatever, for a hand-job.
Jeez, why did you have to derail an intentionally sentimental comment by mocking it as "cute".
Jeez, why did you have to derail an intentionally sentimental comment by mocking it as "cute".
Thanks for the info.
IMHO a snack or a couple of pancakes for a handjob is a good deal.
You pay more than a breakfast at IHOP for that kind of happy ending here.
IMHO a snack or a couple of pancakes for a handjob is a good deal.
You pay more than a breakfast at IHOP for that kind of happy ending here.
It was a great comment, thanks for sharing.
That was a great story and I did not like it called cute. Thank you for sharing.
Intentionally sentimental, indeed. The first thing you do here is elevate your 'engineer work ethic' above your brother who is merely an artist.
You go on to describe how your brother did all this nice stuff for you and didn't judge you despite you doing nothing to prepare and coming to the event as a spectator.
You mention how for the first time ever you realize maybe you aren't that important to society. How surprising it is to find out maybe you aren't the most well-rounded person ever.
Like a 30 minute sitcom you wrap up your story saying your relationship with your brother is now a team of equals due to the experience. What was your brother's growth in this little story? That his big important engineer brother might not look down on him now?
Are you really a changed person due to this one week experience? Someone who doesn't measure their life value by their engineering contributions, who respects artists and their lifestyle? Is that the story you are telling?
On top of that, being top comment means this will undoubtedly influence HN readers to ask themselves, "What a nice story. Maybe I should go to Burning Man this year. Maybe people will accept me as a spectator and I will be fine going in with no preparation and have some major philosophical realization about myself."
So I'm reading this episode of Friends comment, hoping you at least do some justice to these potential attendees. But, no. After a successful sparkle pony ride down your memory lane you make a point to acknowledge drug use and bartering. Which shows you really don't know how to represent the event and that this is a weak intro to what it is for HN readers considering attendance for the first time. Doubling down by invoking a description by "the media" is fitting.
Your story reads as possibly accurate yet wildly incomplete portrayal of your relationship with your brother. To quote another commenter, this was a "great comment" to someone who has never gone to Burning Man and does not have a sibling. Hence, my summary of it as "cute."
For folks considering attending Burning Man for the first time here are some things OP missed:
1. Don't show up unprepared.
2. Don't go expecting some kind of breakthrough. Don't go with expectations of any kind.
3. Read the 10 Principals that Larry Harvey wrote in 2004.[1]
[1] https://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-princ...
You go on to describe how your brother did all this nice stuff for you and didn't judge you despite you doing nothing to prepare and coming to the event as a spectator.
You mention how for the first time ever you realize maybe you aren't that important to society. How surprising it is to find out maybe you aren't the most well-rounded person ever.
Like a 30 minute sitcom you wrap up your story saying your relationship with your brother is now a team of equals due to the experience. What was your brother's growth in this little story? That his big important engineer brother might not look down on him now?
Are you really a changed person due to this one week experience? Someone who doesn't measure their life value by their engineering contributions, who respects artists and their lifestyle? Is that the story you are telling?
On top of that, being top comment means this will undoubtedly influence HN readers to ask themselves, "What a nice story. Maybe I should go to Burning Man this year. Maybe people will accept me as a spectator and I will be fine going in with no preparation and have some major philosophical realization about myself."
So I'm reading this episode of Friends comment, hoping you at least do some justice to these potential attendees. But, no. After a successful sparkle pony ride down your memory lane you make a point to acknowledge drug use and bartering. Which shows you really don't know how to represent the event and that this is a weak intro to what it is for HN readers considering attendance for the first time. Doubling down by invoking a description by "the media" is fitting.
Your story reads as possibly accurate yet wildly incomplete portrayal of your relationship with your brother. To quote another commenter, this was a "great comment" to someone who has never gone to Burning Man and does not have a sibling. Hence, my summary of it as "cute."
For folks considering attending Burning Man for the first time here are some things OP missed:
1. Don't show up unprepared.
2. Don't go expecting some kind of breakthrough. Don't go with expectations of any kind.
3. Read the 10 Principals that Larry Harvey wrote in 2004.[1]
[1] https://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-princ...
Now you've crossed into personal attack and are breaking the site guidelines badly. Please stop.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Just so you know, this comment comes across as:
1. Very pretentious
2. Judgemental
3. That you believe to know more about GP's relationship with their brother than they doThe HN mod should penalize those who says "this is cute" type of shit as much as they penalize heavy trolling. Actually "cute" is much worse than straightforward trolling, it's passive aggressive in the most pathetic way.
I use cute sincerely quite often, and I think OP did too.
Given the context, “cute story” is 100% patronizing / belittling. You need to employ some serious mental gymnastics to believe it’s being used in any other sense.
bless your heart..
If you use it often AND you think OP used it sincerely, I think you may be unintentionally offending tons of people on HN without realizing.
If you want to express sincere compliment, there are many many words that are way better. "cute" is both literally and figuratively offensive. Which adult would like to be called "cute" (unless it's two sexually attracted people talking about each other) even if it was in a positive manner?
If you want to express sincere compliment, there are many many words that are way better. "cute" is both literally and figuratively offensive. Which adult would like to be called "cute" (unless it's two sexually attracted people talking about each other) even if it was in a positive manner?
I agree
That's only sort of true. There are -plenty- of bars out there that will reward you with a drink once you entertain them in some way (flashing them, for instance).
But beyond that, it also depends when you're talking about. Bartering preceded gifting culturally at BM, and was definitely a thing in the early to mid 90s.
But beyond that, it also depends when you're talking about. Bartering preceded gifting culturally at BM, and was definitely a thing in the early to mid 90s.
umm isn't that exactly the opposite of what you always hear?
Correct, this is what everyone always hears about Burning Man. However, the idea that bartering happens at Burning Man is the most common misconnection. It is also how you can pick out that someone has never been to Burning Man (at least not recently).
I've been 5 years and from what I gather there was some bartering >10 years ago (not sure the exact date, but my impression is it was in the 90s). However, it shifted to a "gifting" economy where you give out gifts with no expectation of return and any Burner who hears that characterized as bartering would be quick to correct you.
I've been 5 years and from what I gather there was some bartering >10 years ago (not sure the exact date, but my impression is it was in the 90s). However, it shifted to a "gifting" economy where you give out gifts with no expectation of return and any Burner who hears that characterized as bartering would be quick to correct you.
Yeah, bartering was a 90s thing. I suspect it died out because it's actually a hassle compared to gifting.
Money isn't permitted except for the initial tickets, as well as coffee/ice (all of which are sold by the organizers).
It's otherwise a gift economy. Reciprocation is fine, except that the initial gift shouldn't be given with the expectation of reciprocation. It's a subtle difference, but it works out OK. Some would probably object to the term "economy" as well -- you're supposed to have arrived with everything you need to survive, so all the exchanging is just for fun.
It's otherwise a gift economy. Reciprocation is fine, except that the initial gift shouldn't be given with the expectation of reciprocation. It's a subtle difference, but it works out OK. Some would probably object to the term "economy" as well -- you're supposed to have arrived with everything you need to survive, so all the exchanging is just for fun.
You can also purchase RV pumpouts with cash on the spot, which is not sold by the organizers.
Not quite - giving without any expectation of receiving is very different to bartering.
Do you mean there is some kind of rule or law preventing that? Otherwise, it's not appropriate to generalize the microeconomic behavior of a population of 70,000+ (2017 attendance estimate).
There is no rule. Any attendee is free to barter!
I will say in my experience (and second-hand experience with hundreds if not thousands of participants), that there is literally zero* bartering. And, furthermore, many (cf ~all) people would be aghast at any sort of quid pro quo exchange.
Read the last paragraph from the parent stating they would not return without a large presentation/gift. This captures the spirit/zeitgeist/culture of burning man!
* I have seen some bartering with illicit substances to prove one isn't a law enforcement officer, but the barter amounts to "show me you have some money, even a few cents, and I'll trade you immeasurable money"
I will say in my experience (and second-hand experience with hundreds if not thousands of participants), that there is literally zero* bartering. And, furthermore, many (cf ~all) people would be aghast at any sort of quid pro quo exchange.
Read the last paragraph from the parent stating they would not return without a large presentation/gift. This captures the spirit/zeitgeist/culture of burning man!
* I have seen some bartering with illicit substances to prove one isn't a law enforcement officer, but the barter amounts to "show me you have some money, even a few cents, and I'll trade you immeasurable money"
In a recent EconTalk episode, the CEO of Burning Man [1] says otherwise. They even try to police bartering, based on tips from the community.
[1] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/01/marian_goodell.html
[1] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2018/01/marian_goodell.html
More context from your link:
"it used to happen more in the early years--certainly in the early 2000s when, frankly, when the dot-com concept was coming to life, one of the things we would see which was a little related to Gifting and a little related to Decommodification is, we would see camps have logos from their start-up in front of their camp."
The point is that Burning Man's community is not built around transactional experience, and that value shines strongly throughout the experience.
"it used to happen more in the early years--certainly in the early 2000s when, frankly, when the dot-com concept was coming to life, one of the things we would see which was a little related to Gifting and a little related to Decommodification is, we would see camps have logos from their start-up in front of their camp."
The point is that Burning Man's community is not built around transactional experience, and that value shines strongly throughout the experience.
That’s funny, but goes to show that everyone’s experience is what they make of it. My camp one year traded a bunch of alcohol for a keg and first dibs on some grilled cheese. For each it’s own.
I have seen some bartering with illicit substances to prove one isn't a law enforcement officer
Yeah that's not a thing.
Yeah that's not a thing.
Not knowing what to expect, my brother privately took care of everything. He created several costumes so we could wear something different every day. He decorated our bicycles and designed elaborate canopies. He made drug laced snacks for barter and created games we could play in darkness of the desert night. Upon my arrival, he made me feel welcome despite my immediate realization that I was not worthy of attending this event. For I had contributed nothing. I had, for the first time in my life, felt like dead-weight to society. But instead of judging me, my brother made me feel loved.
Going to Burning Man is truly a humbling experience. The unimaginable massive spectacles of creativity are beyond my ability to describe. As much as we would like to return we both agreed we wouldn't unless we had an installation to exhibit. A fitting mission a for sibling artist-engineering team who feel obliged to give back to an event that gave them so much.
RIP Larry. I hope somehow in death you feel all the love and beauty that Burning Man inspired.