Our first patent troll(mycroft.ai)
mycroft.ai
Our first patent troll
https://mycroft.ai/blog/troll-hunter-mycrofts-position-on-patent-trolls/
108 comments
USA used to have an expert patents court AIUI, anyone know why things were changed?
No, nobody knows why things changed.
There was a U.S. Supreme Court case called Diamond v Diehr such that if its precedent were followed, software patents like the one in the comment above would never be granted. Somehow lower courts confused things enough that software patents started being granted again.
Once you open up patents to a super broad and prolific field like software, it's impossible to maintain enough expertise to assess novelty and non-obviousness. And at that point the system completely breaks down. A presumption of validity when the USPTO cannot reasonably be expected to judge validity basically means that people are being denied due process when sued for patent infringement.
There was a U.S. Supreme Court case called Diamond v Diehr such that if its precedent were followed, software patents like the one in the comment above would never be granted. Somehow lower courts confused things enough that software patents started being granted again.
Once you open up patents to a super broad and prolific field like software, it's impossible to maintain enough expertise to assess novelty and non-obviousness. And at that point the system completely breaks down. A presumption of validity when the USPTO cannot reasonably be expected to judge validity basically means that people are being denied due process when sued for patent infringement.
I don't know if it will validate or invalidate your assertion, but I recommend watching Patent Absurdity [0]. It helps to explain how this all came to be, some history, and why the current system is so b0rken.
[0] http://patentabsurdity.com/
[0] http://patentabsurdity.com/
As anyone who has suffered injustice in a court will tell you...
We have a legal system not a justice system.
Those in poverty and without power have known this for sometime.
Read: Gideons Trumpet by Anthony Lewis
Follow: @innocence
We have a legal system not a justice system.
Those in poverty and without power have known this for sometime.
Read: Gideons Trumpet by Anthony Lewis
Follow: @innocence
Having gone through this a number of times, and its never about the validity of the patent. These patents are often acquired from defunct companies anyway. If they don’t acquire, they have revshare deals for enforcing.
Patent trolls typically have almost no overhead, just a small office in a cheap venue (Marshall Texas) and time.
Its simple math, 1) it’s cheaper to settle out then litigate (by far) so boards usually want to settle, and 2) its too expensive to litigate, ie you don't have 1-2 million to fully fight a patent troll.
Good for you for fighting. Ultimately thats what we've done and its the only way to stop the Trolls. (Shout out to Lee Cheng formerly from NewEgg)
There are some patent defense consortiums that you can join that will share the burden if you are sued by a troll making you a much less appealing target.
Good Luck!
Patent trolls typically have almost no overhead, just a small office in a cheap venue (Marshall Texas) and time.
Its simple math, 1) it’s cheaper to settle out then litigate (by far) so boards usually want to settle, and 2) its too expensive to litigate, ie you don't have 1-2 million to fully fight a patent troll.
Good for you for fighting. Ultimately thats what we've done and its the only way to stop the Trolls. (Shout out to Lee Cheng formerly from NewEgg)
There are some patent defense consortiums that you can join that will share the burden if you are sued by a troll making you a much less appealing target.
Good Luck!
Yep. And they probably have lunch at least once a month with every patent judge too. It's not so much of a patent justice system as it is a small-town highway robbery speed trap to vampirically-monetize and cannibalize legitimate businesses.
Trolling is somewhat more expensive and risky these days because of the likelihood of IPR and the increased difficulty getting cases venued in EDTX, outside of which you're a lot more likely to get whacked on summary judgment. The only upside if that if you survive re-exam, IPR, and summary judgment, you become a force to be reckoned with. Until then it's not too expensive for a defendant to keep you in a holding pattern.
At very least, the EDTX circus was shut down, and I believe plaintiffs must now file in the district where the defendant is headquartered. [1]
[1] https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/22/supreme-court-location-p...
[1] https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/22/supreme-court-location-p...
Question,
So do you happen to know if the troll needs to prove that the company violated a claim, or does the company need to prove that it DID NOT violate the claim?
So do you happen to know if the troll needs to prove that the company violated a claim, or does the company need to prove that it DID NOT violate the claim?
This will be fought on an entirely different level: the patent is bogus in the first place. There's nothing patentable about it.
That's how you hunt trolls. Merely proving you didn't violate their patent is not helping the next guy (and actually, you might have violated the patent, who knows with these frivolous things). Killing their patent does.
That's how you hunt trolls. Merely proving you didn't violate their patent is not helping the next guy (and actually, you might have violated the patent, who knows with these frivolous things). Killing their patent does.
There ought to be a super PAC / legal collective in US whose primary goal is to basically hack the system by using it against itself for the net effect of mostly eliminate the patent system with the chief aims of:
0. making it harder to get a patent (not adding arbitrary bureaucracy, but ensuring examiners maintain high and fair standards) 1. making it harder/shorten the time to keep a patent
EFF, ACLU, etc. might nibble around the edges on this issue, but there's no one going after the politicians with lobbyists, a bucket of money and a deep bench of patent attorneys funded by something like a Kickstarter/IndieGoGo and/or subscription model to the tune of a Bernie Sanders-equivalent funding level.
0. making it harder to get a patent (not adding arbitrary bureaucracy, but ensuring examiners maintain high and fair standards) 1. making it harder/shorten the time to keep a patent
EFF, ACLU, etc. might nibble around the edges on this issue, but there's no one going after the politicians with lobbyists, a bucket of money and a deep bench of patent attorneys funded by something like a Kickstarter/IndieGoGo and/or subscription model to the tune of a Bernie Sanders-equivalent funding level.
There is an enormous, well funded, Silicon Valley lobbying effort directed at weakening the patent system. The last Patent Office director was head of Patent Strategy for Google for almost a decade. However, almost all the other industries, from automotive to pharmaceuticals to aerospace, and even some of the more traditional players in Silicon Valley, are on the other side of the issue.
No matter how detrimental software patents are to the big players, they are far more detrimental to the small players. If it can keep the smaller players from being real competitors, it's in the best interest of the big companies to just pay the patent tax. They stand to lose far more with a lower barrier to entry to their markets.
Software is kind of unique (and even moreso now with the prevalence of cloud providers) with its otherwise low barrier to entry; as capital expenses are extremely low compared to other industries.
Software is kind of unique (and even moreso now with the prevalence of cloud providers) with its otherwise low barrier to entry; as capital expenses are extremely low compared to other industries.
The burden of proof is on the plaintiff (patentee). The defendant can win by showing either invalidity or non-infringement. Theoretically, there is a presumption of validity of a patent because applications are carefully reviewed before issue. However, in practice that presumption is usually challenged early in litigation. So, the plaintiff ends up having to prove validity of the patent and infringement by the defendant.
Thanks for the answer.
So based on Alice, etc, where a lot of software patents got invalidated. If a patent got issued pre-Alice, can a defendant invoke Alice as a defense?
Is there a way to do that without going to trial?
So based on Alice, etc, where a lot of software patents got invalidated. If a patent got issued pre-Alice, can a defendant invoke Alice as a defense?
Is there a way to do that without going to trial?
Alice is just an interpretation of the pre-existing Section 101 requirement for patent eligibility, so it can be invoked against any patent. Section 101 and Alice can be invoked in a motion to dismiss early in litigation.
Thanks for the response.
So to file a motion to dismiss, is there a USPTO process that one can follow, or there must be a real trial?
My goal is to find the fastest (and the cheapest) way to starve the troll.
So to file a motion to dismiss, is there a USPTO process that one can follow, or there must be a real trial?
My goal is to find the fastest (and the cheapest) way to starve the troll.
You file the motion to dismiss in the district court where the troll sues you. If you win on the motion to dismiss, the case never goes to trial.
Thanks. You sound very knowledgable.
So if I think about it correctly, there are three ways to dismiss it.
1) Invalidate the patent on the basis of novelty (101).
2) Invalidate the patent of the basis of the prior art.
3) Invalidate the claim on the basis of non-infringement.
[ Am I missing something? ]
Which one do you think is the best strategy (with the most chance of success? Or based on your experience, what will likely work.
So if I think about it correctly, there are three ways to dismiss it.
1) Invalidate the patent on the basis of novelty (101).
2) Invalidate the patent of the basis of the prior art.
3) Invalidate the claim on the basis of non-infringement.
[ Am I missing something? ]
Which one do you think is the best strategy (with the most chance of success? Or based on your experience, what will likely work.
It depends entirely on the patent and the allegations of infringement. Section 101 is something that can be invoked early in a case, so for a software patent that's usually something you want to do. The other two are generally invoked at trial, or possibly at summary judgment before trial (if the evidence is so strong that there is no reason to have a trial).
Is there any sort of anti-SLAPP-like provision for patent trolling? Otherwise I don't understand how fighting them is a deterrent?
If you get the court to declare the patent invalid, they lose that weapon .
East Texas? Should be thrown out after the recent Supreme Court ruling, unless Mycroft actually has an office there. Apple went to the trouble of closing their stores in East Texas for that exact reason: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/22/apple-closing-stores-in...
Did this troll not get the memo?
Did this troll not get the memo?
The article mentions this:
> It looks like Tod “accidentally” filed in the wrong venue so after we’ve changed the venue ( and recovered our attorney fees from Tod for the required effort).
So perhaps the troll did miss the memo; perhaps they were hoping that most defendants would miss the memo.
> It looks like Tod “accidentally” filed in the wrong venue so after we’ve changed the venue ( and recovered our attorney fees from Tod for the required effort).
So perhaps the troll did miss the memo; perhaps they were hoping that most defendants would miss the memo.
Interesting that this is the same area that Samsung spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to 'bribe' the local community with feel good public relations, like building ice skating rinks and donating monitors to local public schools.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40021491
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40021491
NPR's This American Life and Planet Money had an episode on this phenomenon as well. I think it was:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/... (2011)
follow up: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/496/when-patents-attack-par... (2013)
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/... (2011)
follow up: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/496/when-patents-attack-par... (2013)
I wonder why they would do that. I'm sure they just love the community.
If you sell digital goods online, then don't you by definition have a presence, sort of, in East Texas?
At this point, it may be prudent to just block off that entire district.
Can you legally claim "hostile regulatory environment" or something like that for denying service?
Can you legally claim "hostile regulatory environment" or something like that for denying service?
That’s what many companies did for GDPR. Not sure you can do that for patents.
This is a great idea.
Cloudflare, FAANG, etc are a position to seriously mess with mobile services and website traffic to all of East Texas. They're free drop service for any legal jurisdiction they want, right?
The "regulatory environment" there might not withstand the public pressure of those services getting denied. Ie, if its citizens felt serious pain of companies refusing to do business there, maybe they'd drop the rules aiding the trolls.
Cloudflare, FAANG, etc are a position to seriously mess with mobile services and website traffic to all of East Texas. They're free drop service for any legal jurisdiction they want, right?
The "regulatory environment" there might not withstand the public pressure of those services getting denied. Ie, if its citizens felt serious pain of companies refusing to do business there, maybe they'd drop the rules aiding the trolls.
The first one claimed:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348B2/en
Abstract A method of using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. The method includes receiving audio data from the mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device.
It is worth noting (based on Google...) that they are the first ones against which this patent asserted in court. Based on its broad applicability they are clearly following a strategy of getting a few wins against weaker targets before taking on the rest of the world.
Alexa, Siri please help!
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348B2/en
Abstract A method of using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. The method includes receiving audio data from the mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device.
It is worth noting (based on Google...) that they are the first ones against which this patent asserted in court. Based on its broad applicability they are clearly following a strategy of getting a few wins against weaker targets before taking on the rest of the world.
Alexa, Siri please help!
The claim is the relevant part, not the abstract. Claim 1 recites:
> A method of remotely accessing and controlling a computer from a mobile device, comprising:
> receiving audio data from the mobile device, at the computer, at an audio command interface; the audio command interface decodes the audio data into a command;
> the audio command interface selects, from two or more applications, one application the audio command interface decides is the appropriate application to execute at least one process in response to the command, wherein in deciding which application to select the audio command interface uses biometric data;
(This step is likely the basis for any claim of patentability over the prior art. Interestingly, the patent doesn’t use the term “biometric” in the specification. So there might be a written description or enablement problem. Caveat: I’m a lawyer but this is not legal advice, just entertainment.)
> executing with the selected application the at least one process in response to the command;
> generating output data in response to the selected application executing the at least one process;
> and transmitting the output data to the mobile device.
> A method of remotely accessing and controlling a computer from a mobile device, comprising:
> receiving audio data from the mobile device, at the computer, at an audio command interface; the audio command interface decodes the audio data into a command;
> the audio command interface selects, from two or more applications, one application the audio command interface decides is the appropriate application to execute at least one process in response to the command, wherein in deciding which application to select the audio command interface uses biometric data;
(This step is likely the basis for any claim of patentability over the prior art. Interestingly, the patent doesn’t use the term “biometric” in the specification. So there might be a written description or enablement problem. Caveat: I’m a lawyer but this is not legal advice, just entertainment.)
> executing with the selected application the at least one process in response to the command;
> generating output data in response to the selected application executing the at least one process;
> and transmitting the output data to the mobile device.
Don't bother reading ANYTHING other than the claims. Just skip right to them. That's the legal part, that's what they're trying to do a land-grab on. The stuff up front (abstracts, diagrams, whatever) don't mean a thing and will only serve to distract you.
[deleted]
>A method of using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. The method includes receiving audio data from the mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device.
this is revolutionary. are they taking investors?
this is revolutionary. are they taking investors?
We once got spammed by Columbia Universities' IP arm when we were a tiny startup. They just send us this giant booklet of random patents with the strong implication that there was some relevance to what we were doing, but it just seemed like a bulk trolling effort.
We just threw it in the trash and moved on with our lives and that was that. No follow-up, of course.
Ah, the delights of Pure Intellectual Research in the ivory towers of academe, right?
We just threw it in the trash and moved on with our lives and that was that. No follow-up, of course.
Ah, the delights of Pure Intellectual Research in the ivory towers of academe, right?
Generally they want to license the IP to you, which might be a good idea as it adds prestige, plus they will defend it in court. Note that even if your technology did not infringe on their patents, your marketing claims might have appeared to.
Many schools try to make money by licensing patents, even giant public schools (oddly). Faculty and research staff are pressed to make invention disclosures of ongoing research that hasn't been published yet, and the school decides if it can make money patenting it. If they do, the inventor gets a cut.
In terms of ownership, all govt funding of the research means is the govt itself gets a free license to use it, not the public.
Many schools try to make money by licensing patents, even giant public schools (oddly). Faculty and research staff are pressed to make invention disclosures of ongoing research that hasn't been published yet, and the school decides if it can make money patenting it. If they do, the inventor gets a cut.
In terms of ownership, all govt funding of the research means is the govt itself gets a free license to use it, not the public.
None of the patents seemed to have anything to do with anything we did whether actual IP or marketing claims. I think the generalized scheme was "spam out this huge brochure to enough people and hope we get something back".
I understand the whole 'ownership of govt funded stuff' well enough; I don't think I am entitled to ride around in a tank. And yet it doesn't seem entirely like the public good that was trying to be achieved, especially this kind of spammy approach, where they clearly had no idea of which patent we might be "infringing" or interested in licensing.
I understand the whole 'ownership of govt funded stuff' well enough; I don't think I am entitled to ride around in a tank. And yet it doesn't seem entirely like the public good that was trying to be achieved, especially this kind of spammy approach, where they clearly had no idea of which patent we might be "infringing" or interested in licensing.
The whole patent system needs a good looking at. I'm not a lawyer, but I did manage to get a patent a few years ago. It was for something obvious (math in fact!), but my business partners at the time thought it was worth getting. Haven't used it to troll anyone, and I don't like the idea, but the process did get me thinking a lot about whether patents are a net positive to society.
I think they aren't.
Having a patent system gives people the wrong impression that there's some special nugget of knowledge that is crucial to creating value. You often hear people who aren't in the entrepreneurial space talk about how they just need a "good idea". In practice, there's very few things that work that way. Every time I've started a business, there's been a lot of work that isn't so much developing "the idea" as much as finding ways to connect it economically the rest of the world. Whereas the naive view would be something like "once we invent fusion, it will be easy to sell".
For similar reasons, exclusivity is not necessarily a good way to reward innovators. Essentially my thinking is that innovating is actually only half the work, if even. Say you invent the cure for coronavirus. How useful is that actually, without a plan for making it at scale and distributing it? And what is the chance that the guy who spent his life building cures for viral diseases is also the guy who can build factories and delivery networks? The retort to that may be that the innovator can outsource those things, but why would we give them the exclusive right to do that, when he'd only gotten one piece of the puzzle?
Patents also allow incumbents to create costs that deter new entrants. They seem to be so loosely defined that any suitably large corporation that feels threatened can throw them at any other player and the lawyers win, like this article is talking about. It's great that they are fighting but there's a problem if the troll has deep pockets.
One big issue that is mentioned is that the troll doesn't need to produce anything working. So basically they don't need to show that they are making anything of value. No customers needs to ever have benefitted from the patent. So somehow the system would still punish an honest player who tries to be useful to other people.
Finally, the thesis itself of how patents are supposed to work needs evidence to support it. I don't see any evidence other than thought experiment to say that something was invented because the patent system existed. All I see is that if you can patent something, you do. Not that you try to invent something because patents exist.
I think they aren't.
Having a patent system gives people the wrong impression that there's some special nugget of knowledge that is crucial to creating value. You often hear people who aren't in the entrepreneurial space talk about how they just need a "good idea". In practice, there's very few things that work that way. Every time I've started a business, there's been a lot of work that isn't so much developing "the idea" as much as finding ways to connect it economically the rest of the world. Whereas the naive view would be something like "once we invent fusion, it will be easy to sell".
For similar reasons, exclusivity is not necessarily a good way to reward innovators. Essentially my thinking is that innovating is actually only half the work, if even. Say you invent the cure for coronavirus. How useful is that actually, without a plan for making it at scale and distributing it? And what is the chance that the guy who spent his life building cures for viral diseases is also the guy who can build factories and delivery networks? The retort to that may be that the innovator can outsource those things, but why would we give them the exclusive right to do that, when he'd only gotten one piece of the puzzle?
Patents also allow incumbents to create costs that deter new entrants. They seem to be so loosely defined that any suitably large corporation that feels threatened can throw them at any other player and the lawyers win, like this article is talking about. It's great that they are fighting but there's a problem if the troll has deep pockets.
One big issue that is mentioned is that the troll doesn't need to produce anything working. So basically they don't need to show that they are making anything of value. No customers needs to ever have benefitted from the patent. So somehow the system would still punish an honest player who tries to be useful to other people.
Finally, the thesis itself of how patents are supposed to work needs evidence to support it. I don't see any evidence other than thought experiment to say that something was invented because the patent system existed. All I see is that if you can patent something, you do. Not that you try to invent something because patents exist.
> Every time I've started a business, there's been a lot of work that isn't so much developing "the idea" as much as finding ways to connect it economically the rest of the world. Whereas the naive view would be something like "once we invent fusion, it will be easy to sell".
This is often true of software industry startups. Not so true of many other industries. If you invent a higher temperature turbine blade, for example, figuring out the market for it is trivial. The same is undoubtedly true of fusion.
When I worked at a startup, we knew the military would basically buy our technology, if we could get it working in the first place. The company has been working at it for more than 10 years.
One of the benefits of the patent system is that it allows monetary separation between investors and distributors. ARM doesn’t need to know how to build cell phones or how to market them to consumers. It can focus on chip design and sell IP. That’s specialization at work. And it’s of enormous economic value. If you can’t protect inventions, every company is basically judged on the success of manufacturing/marketing efforts. (That happens anyway, but devaluing IP would accelerate that.)
This is often true of software industry startups. Not so true of many other industries. If you invent a higher temperature turbine blade, for example, figuring out the market for it is trivial. The same is undoubtedly true of fusion.
When I worked at a startup, we knew the military would basically buy our technology, if we could get it working in the first place. The company has been working at it for more than 10 years.
One of the benefits of the patent system is that it allows monetary separation between investors and distributors. ARM doesn’t need to know how to build cell phones or how to market them to consumers. It can focus on chip design and sell IP. That’s specialization at work. And it’s of enormous economic value. If you can’t protect inventions, every company is basically judged on the success of manufacturing/marketing efforts. (That happens anyway, but devaluing IP would accelerate that.)
The patent system was made with worry that "more advanced countries, would be able to use scale" to cripple our own industries as one of the major concerns.
I agree completely. We need to scrap the entire patent system.
> I don't see any evidence other than thought experiment to say that something was invented because the patent system existed.
The patent system is designed to reward the publication of technologies, not their development.
The patent system is designed to reward the publication of technologies, not their development.
I would argue it's both.
If a technology can be reasonably be kept as trade secret, a patent system provides an incentive to publish it as a patent instead (25 years guaranteed exclusivity instead of exclusivity until it somehow leaks or somebody else figures it out).
But some technologies are easy to figure out once you have the consumer device in your hand. In that case a patent system might help incentivize commercializing that technology at all. After all, why would you develop something only to invite everybody else to sell a cheaper version.
If a technology can be reasonably be kept as trade secret, a patent system provides an incentive to publish it as a patent instead (25 years guaranteed exclusivity instead of exclusivity until it somehow leaks or somebody else figures it out).
But some technologies are easy to figure out once you have the consumer device in your hand. In that case a patent system might help incentivize commercializing that technology at all. After all, why would you develop something only to invite everybody else to sell a cheaper version.
That is technically correct but in policy discussion and the Economics literature patents are usually linked to innovation (where innovation is defined as invention + commercialization). As the earlier poster suggests the link may not be as strong as its proponents argue, but we don’t have a lot of counter factual data. Innovative economies generally develop strong IP protection around the same time they become innovative.
> Innovative economies generally develop strong IP protection around the same time they become innovative.
This is another way of saying "actors in less advanced economies ignore IP protections until they've more or less caught up".
That was the US IP strategy, which it now decries when others follow it. Enabled by faster international feedback loops, China is, er, innovating on the strategy, simultaneously weaponizing IP law while also expropriating through various means.
This is another way of saying "actors in less advanced economies ignore IP protections until they've more or less caught up".
That was the US IP strategy, which it now decries when others follow it. Enabled by faster international feedback loops, China is, er, innovating on the strategy, simultaneously weaponizing IP law while also expropriating through various means.
No, it rewards the publication, the motivation being to improve welfare. There's no point in focusing on the intermediate target if it doesn't get you what you actually want.
> Having a patent system gives people the wrong impression that there's some special nugget of knowledge that is crucial to creating value
This depends on the business. I know some people who work in an area (developing calibration systems for low-cost sensors), where an entire company's competitive advantage can be written down in one or two equations which took years of work to develop. That said, they don't patent these things, they keep them as trade secrets.
This depends on the business. I know some people who work in an area (developing calibration systems for low-cost sensors), where an entire company's competitive advantage can be written down in one or two equations which took years of work to develop. That said, they don't patent these things, they keep them as trade secrets.
I think drugs are a big use case. They cost tons of money to develop, but once approved are incredibly easy for anyone to duplicate (Generics). Being able to recoup your investment is incentive.
Of course they don’t work perfectly, as drugs off patent sometimes don’t see price reductions, but generally prices come down once off patent.
Of course they don’t work perfectly, as drugs off patent sometimes don’t see price reductions, but generally prices come down once off patent.
Another idea is to let drug development be performed by universities and government institutions. This should be effective against extortionate pricing. Also, it promotes more open research.
A university doesn't want to spend $200 million to run the drug trials for a new drug. And I suspect university researchers don't want to spend their time managing such trials either.
edit: The real problem is the lack of limits on marketing and advertising of drugs in the US. That's what's driving up the cost of drugs more than anything. Of course, without it drugs for rare conditions will never get made since there's no way to communicate their existence to patients. Ah well, nothing in life is perfect.
edit: The real problem is the lack of limits on marketing and advertising of drugs in the US. That's what's driving up the cost of drugs more than anything. Of course, without it drugs for rare conditions will never get made since there's no way to communicate their existence to patients. Ah well, nothing in life is perfect.
> A university doesn't want to spend $200 million to run the drug trials for a new drug. And I suspect university researchers don't want to spend their time managing such trials either.
Yes, so outsource the trials to academic hospitals or specialized companies. Pay them properly and don't grant them a patent based on just doing the trials (they are a lot of work but they are not an inventive step).
Yes, so outsource the trials to academic hospitals or specialized companies. Pay them properly and don't grant them a patent based on just doing the trials (they are a lot of work but they are not an inventive step).
Industry labs compete for govt grants too. No reason why they can't keep developing the drugs. The USPTO has a budget of around $3.5B.
Universities and government institutions do perform basic research (for drug development and lots of other stuff), but applied (product-focused) R&D would benefit from more tailored incentives. Less emphasis on really generic grant-making, and a lot more on ex-post-facto "prizes" for successful research efforts.
Well something needs to be done, because right now society pays big $ to universities for basic research, and allows drug companies to basically skim this off by adding a tiny bit of their own work and putting a patent on it.
I don't think it's "a tiny bit" if we're accounting for it by money spent. You might think that the later steps in drug development (medical trials, especially) are wasteful but then that problem lies with the FDA's overly strict standards.
I wouldn't call them overly strict. They are just inappropriate, bad or badly enforced. There are too many cases of companies selling harmful food/drugs/medicine, even knowingly, with the FDA dragging their feet or just doing nothing.
Disclaimer: Not from US.
Disclaimer: Not from US.
I understand that medical trials cost time and money. But a lot of it is just routine work, and imho doesn't warrant a patent.
"voice commands from a remote device to remotely access and control a computer". Filed in 2007.
I imagine the IBM Simon would be an example of prior art being first demonstrated in 1992.
I imagine the IBM Simon would be an example of prior art being first demonstrated in 1992.
The patent is likely invalid.
First of all, based on my understanding of Mycroft architecture, voice recognition is done on the device itself, as well as application selection.
Hence, the voice command AND the command logic is done on the mobile device, and DO NOT access a remote computer.
Also, the prior art is likely very strong as evidenced in the patent itself:
"from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer are known in the art. However, such prior art systems are application-specific, meaning they are configured to allow the person to use voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a specific application at a computer. Therefore, the prior art systems 25 require the person to have multiple mobile devices and/or systems to remotely access and control the different applications at a computer. Additionally, the prior art systems limit the audible and visible feedback the person can receive from a computer while using voice commands from a 30 mobile device to remotely access and control the computer. "
So the patent admits that prior art exists for sending commands to specific applications, but not for general application? , I fail to see the difference.
All voice commands are sent for a specific application.
Hence, since any voice command is for a specific applications, I fail to see how Mycroft violated the current claim.
If you want an example of the prior art, here is a very famous system (from 2006)
http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/letsgo/
In general, the patent shows its age, such that it confines itself to a simple client-server architecture, where the mobile device gets the audio, and the remote computer (the server) does speech recognition and command selection.
However, if you do the speech recognition on the mobile device, as well as the app selection, I think that the patent is no longer valid.
First of all, based on my understanding of Mycroft architecture, voice recognition is done on the device itself, as well as application selection.
Hence, the voice command AND the command logic is done on the mobile device, and DO NOT access a remote computer.
Also, the prior art is likely very strong as evidenced in the patent itself:
"from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer are known in the art. However, such prior art systems are application-specific, meaning they are configured to allow the person to use voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a specific application at a computer. Therefore, the prior art systems 25 require the person to have multiple mobile devices and/or systems to remotely access and control the different applications at a computer. Additionally, the prior art systems limit the audible and visible feedback the person can receive from a computer while using voice commands from a 30 mobile device to remotely access and control the computer. "
So the patent admits that prior art exists for sending commands to specific applications, but not for general application? , I fail to see the difference.
All voice commands are sent for a specific application.
Hence, since any voice command is for a specific applications, I fail to see how Mycroft violated the current claim.
If you want an example of the prior art, here is a very famous system (from 2006)
http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/letsgo/
In general, the patent shows its age, such that it confines itself to a simple client-server architecture, where the mobile device gets the audio, and the remote computer (the server) does speech recognition and command selection.
However, if you do the speech recognition on the mobile device, as well as the app selection, I think that the patent is no longer valid.
By invalid you mean not covering defendant's systems?
Overly specific claims are signs of patent's quality and probable issues, but they don't necessarily make it invalid.
Overly specific claims are signs of patent's quality and probable issues, but they don't necessarily make it invalid.
Mycroft does not do on-device speech recognition. That is currently infeasible.
I was assuming that this is their main competitive moat against Alexa, etc.
I.e. that they avoid sending any audio to some central server.
It is possible:
https://github.com/kaldi-asr/kaldi/issues/3571
I.e. that they avoid sending any audio to some central server.
It is possible:
https://github.com/kaldi-asr/kaldi/issues/3571
The root cause of this is the "American rule" of costs. It's no where near as viable to troll when you have to pay their costs when you lose (especially given that frequently the plaintiffs are lawyers themselves, so aren't actually spending any legal fees to troll).
The case portrayed in the TV show "Silicon Valley" was illustrative: "best just to settle because it'll cost us less", because the mere act of suing itself financially damages the victim, often severely, given lawyers' typical rates.
But not so under the "English rule": it costs you nothing if they lose.
The case portrayed in the TV show "Silicon Valley" was illustrative: "best just to settle because it'll cost us less", because the mere act of suing itself financially damages the victim, often severely, given lawyers' typical rates.
But not so under the "English rule": it costs you nothing if they lose.
Indeed, most of Europe has a form of the "English rule", it results in relatively low cost lawsuit insurance (for lack of a better translation) and not nearly as much frivolous lawsuits.
Basically if you get sued your insurance company will send their in-house lawyers, and in the end send a large bill to whoever filed the frivolous lawsuit. Very bad economical model to go and sue large groups of you're not going to win, because the defendant's legal costs will quickly bankrupt you.
Basically if you get sued your insurance company will send their in-house lawyers, and in the end send a large bill to whoever filed the frivolous lawsuit. Very bad economical model to go and sue large groups of you're not going to win, because the defendant's legal costs will quickly bankrupt you.
I can't understand for the life of me why USA don't make awards of costs to successful defendants, is there a logic to it that I'm missing?
The benefit is that it lowers barriers to entry to the legal system.
That's not a benefit. "Entering the legal system" is just as often someone suing you (including BS reasons like in the OP) as it is suing someone else, and if you can't "enter the legal system" because you know you'll lose and have to pay for it, that's a good thing.
Related (and covered on hn before): https://blog.cloudflare.com/standing-up-to-a-dangerous-new-b...
Interesting to note that Cloudflare went a few steps further and not only tried to invalidate the patent but also took the troll to the state bar association for disciplinary action. I'm not sure there is an outcome on that yet, but I think the strategy to do everything you can to destroy the trolling entity that sued you is a great one in this case. Might even consider filing several lawsuits and complaints to overwhelm a small scale troll.
Or if you're the size of Cloudflare, bully them in other ways. In this example it's an operation setup by just two lawyers, easy to make them regret going after you if you make their work impossible. You could for example hire away their legal staff, delay things for ages, screw with the personal life of the two founders. They can't keep a small business afloat for very long if you dedicate some resources to screwing with their operations.
Might even just sue their clients for something else (one of your patents for example). In this case the client is a small firm in Germany, they would be in a very bad place if they got sued in the US home district of Cloudflare and had to defend. High probability that they would put pressure on the lawyers to drop the troll suit.
Or if you're the size of Cloudflare, bully them in other ways. In this example it's an operation setup by just two lawyers, easy to make them regret going after you if you make their work impossible. You could for example hire away their legal staff, delay things for ages, screw with the personal life of the two founders. They can't keep a small business afloat for very long if you dedicate some resources to screwing with their operations.
Might even just sue their clients for something else (one of your patents for example). In this case the client is a small firm in Germany, they would be in a very bad place if they got sued in the US home district of Cloudflare and had to defend. High probability that they would put pressure on the lawyers to drop the troll suit.
Cloudflare took them to court, where the judge invalidated the patent. Blackbird appealed and lost.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/winning-the-blackbird-battle/
https://blog.cloudflare.com/winning-the-blackbird-battle/
I'm not sure the solution to abuse of the legal system is more abuse of the legal system.
So, if you're interested in starting a software business, it seems like the risk of being sued by a troll is close to 100% - how do you budget for this? Is there something like insurance you can buy?
It's generally not a problem until you start making enough money (or get a lot of funding) to be worth suing in the first place, at which point you can afford to pay them off (or potentially fight it, though as noted that can be much more expensive). There's supposedly recent changes in the law allow you to fight patent suits without a million-dollar legal process. Not sure how well it works for people.
I don't think the risk is really that high of dealing with a patent troll. Competing firms are much more likely to sue you in my experience. To "insure" against these you need your own patent portfolio to counter sue them with. Or license some technology from a giant company that protects it for you. Or, again, just pay them off.
Either way, the goal isn't to shut you down but to bleed you of some of that money you are making. So it's a good problem to have in a sense.
I don't think the risk is really that high of dealing with a patent troll. Competing firms are much more likely to sue you in my experience. To "insure" against these you need your own patent portfolio to counter sue them with. Or license some technology from a giant company that protects it for you. Or, again, just pay them off.
Either way, the goal isn't to shut you down but to bleed you of some of that money you are making. So it's a good problem to have in a sense.
You can always avoid USA if that's possible in your case or you want it.
Is there some historical reason East Texas is a rubber stamp mill for patents and troll suits or is it just something they decided was a good way to make money?
I want to say a few years ago there was a "positive" verdict in a jurisdiction in Texas which set precedent which is why you see filings over there.
Let me see if I can find a reference and I'll update this comment.
EDIT https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/05/supreme-court-ends-tex...
Let me see if I can find a reference and I'll update this comment.
EDIT https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/05/supreme-court-ends-tex...
Initially, they developed a specialty in that type of case. You can't expect to walk into an average court that's unfamiliar with patent law and leave happy.
Over time, they were bribed with public amenities by large companies. You know, the usual.
Now some litigants are moving elsewhere to avoid the above.
Over time, they were bribed with public amenities by large companies. You know, the usual.
Now some litigants are moving elsewhere to avoid the above.
Yes. The main attorney specialised in patent law there is the son and nephew of the judges.
They made a business of it
They made a business of it
Back in the early 1990s, Texas Instruments was looking for a district to bring its patent litigation. The federal district courts in Dallas and Austin were clogged with criminal cases. East Texas was relatively open for civil suits to proceed quickly: https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/patently-unfair/
The district is also not as random as people make it out to be. It’s a few hours east of Dallas, and includes some of the rich suburb/satellite cities like Plano. It’s got a significant oil and chemical industry.
The district is also not as random as people make it out to be. It’s a few hours east of Dallas, and includes some of the rich suburb/satellite cities like Plano. It’s got a significant oil and chemical industry.
Ahh... that's probably it: the prevalence of physical industries like petrochemicals, oil drilling, etc.
Patents make vastly more sense when applied to physical artifacts.
Patents make vastly more sense when applied to physical artifacts.
Conservative area where a lot of companies spend money to be known to be the 'good guys'.
?? Non sequitur. Big corporations were being killed by the filings in East Texas. Only winners are the trolls and their lawyers.
Admirable stance. I hope these guys win.
> For some inventions this makes sense
No. It never makes sense. You cannot justify the Intellectual Slavery system, anymore than you can justify the Human Slavery system. It's a restriction on human freedoms; it's incompatible with actual property rights (as it restricts what I can do with my own physical property); it's a subsidy to those who were born into it (when you follow the money that flows to copyrights and patents holders, you see the majority goes to inherited wealth).
It's economically bad and morally wrong, is as much as you can have something morally wrong. Here is a classic example of what the Intellectual Slavery industry has brought us: https://qz.com/1125690/big-pharma-is-taking-advantage-of-pat... half a million Americans dead from a "novel" patent.
The system is utter garbage. We need to shatter the brainwashing that these things make sense.
No. It never makes sense. You cannot justify the Intellectual Slavery system, anymore than you can justify the Human Slavery system. It's a restriction on human freedoms; it's incompatible with actual property rights (as it restricts what I can do with my own physical property); it's a subsidy to those who were born into it (when you follow the money that flows to copyrights and patents holders, you see the majority goes to inherited wealth).
It's economically bad and morally wrong, is as much as you can have something morally wrong. Here is a classic example of what the Intellectual Slavery industry has brought us: https://qz.com/1125690/big-pharma-is-taking-advantage-of-pat... half a million Americans dead from a "novel" patent.
The system is utter garbage. We need to shatter the brainwashing that these things make sense.
Do you have this guy's name? You should create a website with his name and company in the domain. That way, it's searchable by google and so when people eventually search for him, people will know what he does for a living.
While you obviously can't "win" in a legal sense, you can at least make it know to his family and friends what he does for a living. If he does unethical things in his jobs, he probably does other unethical things in his real life and people should be warned about him.
While you obviously can't "win" in a legal sense, you can at least make it know to his family and friends what he does for a living. If he does unethical things in his jobs, he probably does other unethical things in his real life and people should be warned about him.
Voice Tech Inc
Type: Corporation for Profit
Entity #: 1551867
Partner: MICHAEL D. GOLLER
Partner: STUART E. GOLLER
Agent: MICHAEL D. GOLLER, 2204 BLUEGRASS LANE, CINCINNATI OH 45237
Filed: 06/21/2005
Who are the Goller's? https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/tom-e...
Jewish deli owner family. Now making a living as trolls.
Here's a photo of them: https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/tom-e...
https://www.crunchbase.com/person/s-e-goller
Who are the Goller's? https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/tom-e...
Jewish deli owner family. Now making a living as trolls.
Here's a photo of them: https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/tom-e...
https://www.crunchbase.com/person/s-e-goller
> It is also cheaper to give a schoolyard bully your lunch money than it is to visit a doctor. The thing is, once you pay the bully, he’ll just come back again and again and again. Eventually, that lunch money adds up to a lot more than a doctor’s visit
doctor? wat?
doctor? wat?
<<<
Patent trolls get paid because short-sighted companies make the decision to pay. Simply put, it is usually cheaper in the short run to pay a troll than it is to litigate. It is also cheaper to give a schoolyard bully your lunch money than it is to visit a doctor. The thing is, once you pay the bully, he’ll just come back again and again and again. Eventually, that lunch money adds up to a lot more than a doctor’s visit. In the long run the best way to deal with a bully is to punch him square in the face. You might take a beating, but if you do it every time? The bully will find easier prey.
>>>
This is very naive. Patent trolls get paid because they are highly effective at weaponizing the legal system.
This is very naive. Patent trolls get paid because they are highly effective at weaponizing the legal system.
Also, the small fees paid to the bully is spread out over the victims. The large fee required to stop the bully in that instance is also spread out across all victims. So each victim is computing "small < large" not "10x small > large". The latter may be true for the attacker, but unless the victims band together, it's not true for the defenders.
This is the perniciousness of the petty injustice. It's the small fees, the little charges, the nickels and dimes that we all ignore because life is too short, and they add up to great fortunes. It's wrong and should be illegal, but that's how the world works right now.
This is the perniciousness of the petty injustice. It's the small fees, the little charges, the nickels and dimes that we all ignore because life is too short, and they add up to great fortunes. It's wrong and should be illegal, but that's how the world works right now.
You must not be aware of Newegg's success in defending themselves against patent trolls. They demonstrated that stonewalling can pay off.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
In my experience, attorney fees for screw-ups (accidental or not) get very rarely awarded :( Hope just fighting makes the troll go away.
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xiweve8512(1)
I remember looking the jury in the eye during my testimony and thinking "these people are tired, they are bored and they don't really have a clue about any of the technology involved here". Sure, it's the lawyers job(s) to try to make sure they do, and that they decide in the "right" direction. But seriously - taking a semi-random set of 12 jurors, sitting them them for 1-2 weeks of court room "education" in network technology, protocols, filesystems, cookies, URL structure and so much more, and then expecting them to come to an "informed" decision?
This is not a justice system worth defending. In the last case, no jury of "peers" - ie. other engineers who actually understand what the patents are about - would ever have found for the plaintiffs. But you end up in court with a very different jury than that, and at that point, the battle has just started.