Show HN: Tipping culture for developers on the Web(tips.60devs.com)
tips.60devs.com
Show HN: Tipping culture for developers on the Web
https://tips.60devs.com
32 comments
I love how the cartoon at the top of the page shows two "indie-developer" looking characters in all their idiosyncratic glory, but then lower on the page the user profile photo is of some corporate tool looking guy. It's kinda like the the joke that is "tipping culture". One supposes it is to show sincere gratitude and be merit based, but almost inevitably it ends up being like any other economic exchange, just providing cover for employers who are unwilling to provide a fair wage to their employees. GitHub is already populated with code generated on the unacknowledged narrative of "free ($) OSS". This seems to provide some whitewash.
Thank you for your comment. It's a good point, we'll change that profile photo asap :)
So you're going to whitewash it better? I think you missed the point.
Not that I care, I think it's still an interesting project.
Not that I care, I think it's still an interesting project.
Does not seem as if this concept has proven to work yet. Why? Developers are mostly thrifty and looking to solve a problem. Most of the time they can do this without help using Google. Developers also don't value their time enough or properly and like solving problems, so they would be more likely to try to solve the problem themselves than pay someone for it. That's why you need managers... developers are often not good decision makers in terms of utilizing their time most profitably.
These stereotypes are very similar to the ones misapplied in helping the impoverished. What studies actually found is that if you give the impoverished money they spend it pretty well.
If you gave a developer company accounts to spend as they saw fit then they would probably make good decisions too. Why a developer would give their own money is a mystery to me as any time they save has to still be used for their employer.
Instead, at best a manager can make these decisions and even they are usually limited by corporate policy which must deal with the complexity of tax and corporate law.
If you want to fix the problem, push a tax compliant product that startups can use to supply their developers with quarterly funds for this purpose and then advertise it as a benefit of their work environment.
If you gave a developer company accounts to spend as they saw fit then they would probably make good decisions too. Why a developer would give their own money is a mystery to me as any time they save has to still be used for their employer.
Instead, at best a manager can make these decisions and even they are usually limited by corporate policy which must deal with the complexity of tax and corporate law.
If you want to fix the problem, push a tax compliant product that startups can use to supply their developers with quarterly funds for this purpose and then advertise it as a benefit of their work environment.
Are you saying developers aren't as smart as teachers, or are cheapskates even though they make far more money?
A Sharing Economy Where Teachers Win: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10179385
"To date, Teacher Synergy, the company behind the site, has paid about $175 million to its teacher-authors, says Adam Freed, the company’s chief executive. The site takes a 15 percent commission on most sales."
"Teachers often spend hours preparing classroom lesson plans to reinforce the material students are required to learn, and many share their best materials with colleagues. Founded in 2006, TeachersPayTeachers speeds up this lesson-plan prep work by monetizing exchanges between teachers and enabling them to make faster connections with farther-flung colleagues."
A Sharing Economy Where Teachers Win: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10179385
"To date, Teacher Synergy, the company behind the site, has paid about $175 million to its teacher-authors, says Adam Freed, the company’s chief executive. The site takes a 15 percent commission on most sales."
"Teachers often spend hours preparing classroom lesson plans to reinforce the material students are required to learn, and many share their best materials with colleagues. Founded in 2006, TeachersPayTeachers speeds up this lesson-plan prep work by monetizing exchanges between teachers and enabling them to make faster connections with farther-flung colleagues."
You're ignoring the growing population of developers who are hobbyists or not professional software developers. A lot of these people just want to get something done and don't have their egos tied up in the solution.
I think this is a good idea. Many people accept help online and feel guilty about getting extensive assistance for free because they understand someone went out of their way to help and it's human nature to not want to take advantage of others.
There are already a lot of sites where I've seen people post small bounties like "$25 to anyone who can help me with this small problem." They can't afford to have someone write an entire program for them, but it's worth paying someone to get past a thorny issue.
I think this is a good idea. Many people accept help online and feel guilty about getting extensive assistance for free because they understand someone went out of their way to help and it's human nature to not want to take advantage of others.
There are already a lot of sites where I've seen people post small bounties like "$25 to anyone who can help me with this small problem." They can't afford to have someone write an entire program for them, but it's worth paying someone to get past a thorny issue.
Those are some interesting stereotypes you've got there. Developers don't value their time?
I've noticed this as well. Most developers will spend 40 hours building a wheel instead of offering to wire up a pre built solution that costs money.
I can tell you exactly why I might fall into this stereotyped category.
1) The wheel is closed-source, and I do not trust the vendor with that component. Linkages to that upstream code/license might not be acceptable/cannot not be justified given the cost/headache of dealing with the transaction.
2) The wheel is open-source and the code is crap or the license incompatible.
3) The wheel is open source and I worry that the direction of the project is not compatible with my needs. It might be awesome for the moment, but given that the project can potentially deviate in a direction that won't work for the needed solution, linking my code to that upstream project doesn't make sense. If the project does end up going in a different direction, I must break my stride, drop what I'm working on, and go back to retrofit that particular solution.
1) The wheel is closed-source, and I do not trust the vendor with that component. Linkages to that upstream code/license might not be acceptable/cannot not be justified given the cost/headache of dealing with the transaction.
2) The wheel is open-source and the code is crap or the license incompatible.
3) The wheel is open source and I worry that the direction of the project is not compatible with my needs. It might be awesome for the moment, but given that the project can potentially deviate in a direction that won't work for the needed solution, linking my code to that upstream project doesn't make sense. If the project does end up going in a different direction, I must break my stride, drop what I'm working on, and go back to retrofit that particular solution.
I think there are different reasons why that may happen - perhaps a misconception of the problem space and what an off the shelf tool provides, or misestimation of implementation time vs learning time.
I don't think it is appropriate to say that developers don't value their time and therefore need managers, as a blanket statement.
I don't think it is appropriate to say that developers don't value their time and therefore need managers, as a blanket statement.
Sadly, "tipping culture" is all too often a product of employer refusal to pay employees a living wage. They shift that burden onto their patrons, forcing service workers to be dependent upon the generosity of their employer's customers.
Why on earth we'd ever want to see "tipping culture" brought into the world of software development is beyond me.
Worst-case scenario I'm imagining right now:
This whole "tipping culture" thing catches on. A rough amount of tips developers earn becomes public information somehow. Unscrupulous employers use this to offer lower salaries and/or raise increases. This persists for years, allowing salary negotiations industry-wide to employ an expectation of tipping to replace good wages, driving salaries down to incredibly low levels. This becomes institutionalized to the point that developers become just another kind of service worker, dependent on their tips to actually survive.
Best-case scenario I'm imagining right now:
Worst-case scenario happens. SV Developers get a harsh dose of reality and humility by learning what a horrible thing "tipping culture" is. SV Developers become incredibly more conscious of how people live on non-SV salaries.
Why on earth we'd ever want to see "tipping culture" brought into the world of software development is beyond me.
Worst-case scenario I'm imagining right now:
This whole "tipping culture" thing catches on. A rough amount of tips developers earn becomes public information somehow. Unscrupulous employers use this to offer lower salaries and/or raise increases. This persists for years, allowing salary negotiations industry-wide to employ an expectation of tipping to replace good wages, driving salaries down to incredibly low levels. This becomes institutionalized to the point that developers become just another kind of service worker, dependent on their tips to actually survive.
Best-case scenario I'm imagining right now:
Worst-case scenario happens. SV Developers get a harsh dose of reality and humility by learning what a horrible thing "tipping culture" is. SV Developers become incredibly more conscious of how people live on non-SV salaries.
This is a good idea for a site like stack overflow, but it suffers from the same problem that many ideas suffer from which is you need a network to be valuable, but you don't offer value to the first users. To get out of this trap you either need a lot of money or luck.
I want to be positive - the best I can offer is go very niche. Dominate a very tiny language/framework and build out.
I want to be positive - the best I can offer is go very niche. Dominate a very tiny language/framework and build out.
Tipping is the wrong model... would you tip an oncologist who gave you a second opinion for free? Nope. You would just be very grateful.
Thanks for you comment,
would you tip an oncologist who gave you a second opinion for free? Nope. You would just be very grateful. - basically, this is a reason why it's called "Tipping culture", when you go to a restaurant you have a choice to pay or not pay a waitress there, and nobody can force you to leave tips, right? - But, usually people don't say, that the service was super nice and that's all :( normally they leave tips.
Here, it's the same. Previously, you didn't have an ability to pay developers who helped you and now you have it, so it's up to you to pay or not to pay. It's all voluntary.
would you tip an oncologist who gave you a second opinion for free? Nope. You would just be very grateful. - basically, this is a reason why it's called "Tipping culture", when you go to a restaurant you have a choice to pay or not pay a waitress there, and nobody can force you to leave tips, right? - But, usually people don't say, that the service was super nice and that's all :( normally they leave tips.
Here, it's the same. Previously, you didn't have an ability to pay developers who helped you and now you have it, so it's up to you to pay or not to pay. It's all voluntary.
Please don't lump us in the same category as waitresses. I have all the respect for their job, but I really don't want to work for 8 usd/hr.
And its insulting to a professional if any one working in the industry thinks that tipping is acceptable then they need to be "managed" out to Starbucks
Great idea! Why hasn't anyone tried this before?
They did (gittip).
… and Flattr
… and TipTheWeb
… and Gratipay
... and Tipjoy
Here's another great one, with bitcoins:
https://www.changetip.com/
It's too bad that these ideas keep failing, if one system would work out it would make the web so much better.
I wish the very best to the developers. Maybe you guys can make it work.
It works on reddit with gold, so it's not like it's impossible to pull off....
https://www.changetip.com/
It's too bad that these ideas keep failing, if one system would work out it would make the web so much better.
I wish the very best to the developers. Maybe you guys can make it work.
It works on reddit with gold, so it's not like it's impossible to pull off....
I don't think it can work. Tipping systems require someone to think about whether they want to tip.
The alternative is what I call "microsubscription": a middleman takes a single fixed subscription, then distributes on behalf of users. Examples include Amazon Underground, Apple Music, Spotify, Netflix, Google Contributor and so on.
Where these fall down is that they're walled or semi-walled gardens. They don't really work on the open web, users have to be funnelled through some central pipeline for reliable tracking of usage.
Which is understandable: open web schemes up until now have had the problem of fraud. Manageable but potentially fatally expensive and offputting.
I'm interested in this problem space for two reasons. First, advertising sucks. It distorts the vision that the early internet held out. We got linkbait and exploitatively addictive web design instead.
Second, I solved the problem of reliably tracking visits to websites on the open web (patent granted in Australia, pending in the USA). As a side effect, the same protocol can be used in apps, games, API calls -- anything that has a network request-response system with some kind of command channel (especially headers). Plus it can seamlessly integrate with paywalls.
Of the microsubscription providers already in service, the one I worry about most is Blendle, because it presents no upfront mental barrier to consumption. On the other hand, it's another walled garden. We'll see.
The alternative is what I call "microsubscription": a middleman takes a single fixed subscription, then distributes on behalf of users. Examples include Amazon Underground, Apple Music, Spotify, Netflix, Google Contributor and so on.
Where these fall down is that they're walled or semi-walled gardens. They don't really work on the open web, users have to be funnelled through some central pipeline for reliable tracking of usage.
Which is understandable: open web schemes up until now have had the problem of fraud. Manageable but potentially fatally expensive and offputting.
I'm interested in this problem space for two reasons. First, advertising sucks. It distorts the vision that the early internet held out. We got linkbait and exploitatively addictive web design instead.
Second, I solved the problem of reliably tracking visits to websites on the open web (patent granted in Australia, pending in the USA). As a side effect, the same protocol can be used in apps, games, API calls -- anything that has a network request-response system with some kind of command channel (especially headers). Plus it can seamlessly integrate with paywalls.
Of the microsubscription providers already in service, the one I worry about most is Blendle, because it presents no upfront mental barrier to consumption. On the other hand, it's another walled garden. We'll see.
There's also flattr, which also follows the "micro-subscription" model
Yes, I include Flattr. They have in common with Kachingle (and, if you squint, Patreon) that you need to deliberately activate the payment.
I think that this still doesn't work because it still requires thinking. The whole magic of microsubscription is that no additional decision making is needed on the part of the subscriber. They pay once and thereafter consume without consideration or guilt.
Any act of making people think, no matter how small, is a barrier to entry. I think this is the fatal flaw in any classic micropayment or tipping scheme.
I think that this still doesn't work because it still requires thinking. The whole magic of microsubscription is that no additional decision making is needed on the part of the subscriber. They pay once and thereafter consume without consideration or guilt.
Any act of making people think, no matter how small, is a barrier to entry. I think this is the fatal flaw in any classic micropayment or tipping scheme.
I think they're solutions looking for a problem.
Tips in the service industry are functionally a means of bolstering income for people who are, by and large, distinctly low-paid workers; developers, even on the low end of the scale, tend not be. I think it's also fair to say that most (most - I realise it's not all) active contributors to open-source projects have day-jobs that provide adequate-or-better income. So what would motivate a common-or-garden developer to court for tips in the first place? And how would a "tip-sized" tip even be noticeable to someone on a developer's salary?
[edit to add: perhaps the issue is the metaphor? A "tip" is roughly what I described above - but it's not actually any different from a "gift", a "donation", or myriad other terms (except, yes, in legal terms of course).]
Tips in the service industry are functionally a means of bolstering income for people who are, by and large, distinctly low-paid workers; developers, even on the low end of the scale, tend not be. I think it's also fair to say that most (most - I realise it's not all) active contributors to open-source projects have day-jobs that provide adequate-or-better income. So what would motivate a common-or-garden developer to court for tips in the first place? And how would a "tip-sized" tip even be noticeable to someone on a developer's salary?
[edit to add: perhaps the issue is the metaphor? A "tip" is roughly what I described above - but it's not actually any different from a "gift", a "donation", or myriad other terms (except, yes, in legal terms of course).]
Reddit Gold isn't really the same; the recipient doesn't really get anything other than warm fuzzies out of it. It's more a way to support Reddit itself financially while dispensing a few of the said fuzzies on the side.
I've had minor contact with a BTC-based tipping system on Reddit, and to be honest it both annoyed me and creeped me out. I forget the name of it, but there was a period where it kept spamming me with "FooUser has tipped you $UTTERLY_DERISORY_AMOUNT, go to $SUSPICIOUS_THIRD_PARTY_SITE and connect up your identities on umpty-zillion different sites to claim it" notifications. I'm not sure who was supposed to benefit in this scenario, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.
I've had minor contact with a BTC-based tipping system on Reddit, and to be honest it both annoyed me and creeped me out. I forget the name of it, but there was a period where it kept spamming me with "FooUser has tipped you $UTTERLY_DERISORY_AMOUNT, go to $SUSPICIOUS_THIRD_PARTY_SITE and connect up your identities on umpty-zillion different sites to claim it" notifications. I'm not sure who was supposed to benefit in this scenario, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.
"...PayPal." No thanks. "BitCoin..."
OK, where's the Stripe & Square integration?
OK, where's the Stripe & Square integration?
We've chosen PayPal, because of few very cool features:
1. It supports B2B payments. We us this model, because we don't want to keep your money. Whenever you want to tip somebody you do it directly to that person.
2. You can still receive money even without being a member of PayPal. If you are not a member and somebody makes a payment to you, PayPal sends an email asking you to register and receive your money.
3 It's very simple for you (you just need to put an email address).
1. It supports B2B payments. We us this model, because we don't want to keep your money. Whenever you want to tip somebody you do it directly to that person.
2. You can still receive money even without being a member of PayPal. If you are not a member and somebody makes a payment to you, PayPal sends an email asking you to register and receive your money.
3 It's very simple for you (you just need to put an email address).
The problems with PayPal are varied, sundry, many, etc. I've had my own problems with them that convince me I'll never go back. "Simple" is not enough of a reason to trust PayPal with my business ever again.