You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine(mosaicscience.com)
mosaicscience.com
You can train your body into thinking it’s had medicine
http://mosaicscience.com/story/medicine-without-the-medicine-how-to-train-your-immune-system-placebo
80 comments
Cocaine is also a stimulant for the digestive system. While not a laxative per se, it can have a similar effect. So Mugsy's symptoms may be more directly related to his body expecting the cocaine.
And the digestive system is extremely sensitive to emotional state. As a kid, anything stressful would make me feel like running to the toilets.
That's normal. There is a reason people literally crap themselves with terror. It's a great way to dissuade a predator bent on eating you.
Is that the (sole) reason? More than one martial arts trainer has told me that if you are definitely about to be involved in a fight -- and you can't run away (number one preference) -- if you have a full bladder you should consciously empty it. Wet trousers are far preferable to having your bladder rupture, so it's a sensible pragmatic (or instinctive) action. I'd imagine there'd be similar benefits in evacuating your bowels.
For what it's worth I heard birds do that to get lighter and faster in order to flee a danger.
You experience nausea/vomiting as part of the fight/flight response because digestion, now a low priority, would need blood supply that is more urgently needed by your limbs.
I didn't mind one bit. Thank you for this.
Wim Hoff [1] is a great example of someone who can turn a lot of the knobs on his metabolism that aren't available to most of us. Apparently, he says it's something you can learn to do. If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this and to get physiologically measurable effects, it would actually certainly lower health care costs.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof
I watched a video of this guy wowing some 'scientists', and was not impressed.
His arms were folded in front, close to his chest. That helped tremendously to maintain core temperature, even with ice surrounding the rest of his body. In a way, it was cheating; but no one had the temerity to point that out...
His arms were folded in front, close to his chest. That helped tremendously to maintain core temperature, even with ice surrounding the rest of his body. In a way, it was cheating; but no one had the temerity to point that out...
Interesting. There has been at least one study about him and his techniques:
Healthy volunteers practicing the learned techniques exhibited profound increases in the release of epinephrine, which in turn led to increased production of anti-inflammatory mediators and subsequent dampening of the proinflammatory cytokine response elicited by intravenous administration of bacterial endotoxin. This study could have important implications for the treatment of a variety of conditions associated with excessive or persistent inflammation, especially autoimmune diseases in which therapies that antagonize proinflammatory cytokines have shown great benefit.
Full paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract
Healthy volunteers practicing the learned techniques exhibited profound increases in the release of epinephrine, which in turn led to increased production of anti-inflammatory mediators and subsequent dampening of the proinflammatory cytokine response elicited by intravenous administration of bacterial endotoxin. This study could have important implications for the treatment of a variety of conditions associated with excessive or persistent inflammation, especially autoimmune diseases in which therapies that antagonize proinflammatory cytokines have shown great benefit.
Full paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.abstract
If I read the methods correctly, then how does this fall into the category of "learned behavior"?
Exposing the body to these temperature extremes, which are far outside the norms most of us experience and which must induce borderline hypothermia, surely has its own physiological effect.
I don't doubt the effect can be beneficial, but that seems squarely in the camp of physical treatment as opposed to "thinking" yourself into a different bodily state.
Exposing the body to these temperature extremes, which are far outside the norms most of us experience and which must induce borderline hypothermia, surely has its own physiological effect.
I don't doubt the effect can be beneficial, but that seems squarely in the camp of physical treatment as opposed to "thinking" yourself into a different bodily state.
To avoid confusion read my answer on cognitive science stack exchange. While it is just an opinion, it is quite an informed one. I participated in the study above. Our final challenge was walking on a ski mountain for 2.5 hours -7 degrees celsius with shorts and shoes. You could bring a hat for style points (I did :) ) but no shirt. Once in a lifetime experience: hugging people in ski-suits who were on vacation while I was dressed like I'd go to a summer pool party.
http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof...
I agree with you on the idea it's not classical conditioning. The WHM has 3 components: cold exposure, breathing technique and the right mindset (mindset is akin to optimism but it is more stereotypical game-shaman like, e.g. "the cold is your friend."). IMO the breathing technique produces the biggest effect, then cold exposure itself and the mindset acts like an amplification of what you learned. In my subjective experience I'd ratio the effects as 41/39/20 (breathing,exposure,mindset).
http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof...
I agree with you on the idea it's not classical conditioning. The WHM has 3 components: cold exposure, breathing technique and the right mindset (mindset is akin to optimism but it is more stereotypical game-shaman like, e.g. "the cold is your friend."). IMO the breathing technique produces the biggest effect, then cold exposure itself and the mindset acts like an amplification of what you learned. In my subjective experience I'd ratio the effects as 41/39/20 (breathing,exposure,mindset).
Impressive. Can you point to some references regarding the breathing technique?
I think perhaps people look at Wim Hof and think, "ok so I have to go swimming in a lake of snow to make this work.
Cold showers are pretty awesome - you'll need all of your will-power to get into one, after a minute or two of discomfort your body will adjust -- especially if you think warm thoughts. And you'll come out feeling great!
Cold showers are pretty awesome - you'll need all of your will-power to get into one, after a minute or two of discomfort your body will adjust -- especially if you think warm thoughts. And you'll come out feeling great!
It was a bit discussed here two week ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10964515 in [“Power pose” research is the latest example of scientific overreach](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10961131)
> Thanks HN for making a graduated psychology student more critical. When I was studying psychology at uni I had no help from peers in being critical with regards to psychology. It's a lot harder being critical when no one really challenges your thoughts on the subject.
> Now on to a method that does invoke "neuroendocrine and behavioral changes". The Wim Hof Method, it takes about 10 minutes to do to feel a strong effect IMO. Don't want to hijack the topic but I thought it was a fitting counter example :)
> The results are also not barely statistical significant, it's more like 5 deviations away from the norm with regards to their main RQ.
> Paper is here: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.full
> Claims about behavioral changes are mine (and I'm just a guy on the web who takes cold showers every day), the research team focused on immune response. But as you can see in their charts about the adrenaline boost one gets, behavioral change occurs in my experience at least.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10964515 in [“Power pose” research is the latest example of scientific overreach](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10961131)
> Thanks HN for making a graduated psychology student more critical. When I was studying psychology at uni I had no help from peers in being critical with regards to psychology. It's a lot harder being critical when no one really challenges your thoughts on the subject.
> Now on to a method that does invoke "neuroendocrine and behavioral changes". The Wim Hof Method, it takes about 10 minutes to do to feel a strong effect IMO. Don't want to hijack the topic but I thought it was a fitting counter example :)
> The results are also not barely statistical significant, it's more like 5 deviations away from the norm with regards to their main RQ.
> Paper is here: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379.full
> Claims about behavioral changes are mine (and I'm just a guy on the web who takes cold showers every day), the research team focused on immune response. But as you can see in their charts about the adrenaline boost one gets, behavioral change occurs in my experience at least.
I still stand by those statements :)
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That's actually the basis for my teams startup:
http://synaptitude.me/
We provide EEG feedback so users can learn how to turn off/on portions of their brains in particular ways. It's actually used pretty regularly to teach people how to recognize when an epileptic seizure is about to occur. It's also used to improve symptoms PTSD, ADHD, etc.
http://synaptitude.me/
We provide EEG feedback so users can learn how to turn off/on portions of their brains in particular ways. It's actually used pretty regularly to teach people how to recognize when an epileptic seizure is about to occur. It's also used to improve symptoms PTSD, ADHD, etc.
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I disagree. The research on Wim Hof is only known what it will do to healthy individuals for about a day. While the long-term effects can be speculated about that is all it is from a scientific standpoint. I myself am quite strict about it since there's a lot of danger to go too occult on his method which in my experience is not helpful (I believed in a lot of occult stuff as a kid, got me in trouble a lot since the predictions were not always accurate). Of course, feel free to use the technique. I don't think the technique is harmful -- but also that has not been tested well enough, but one can infer from similar responses w.r.t. exercise. I do and it seems to help when I have a headache as a pain killer. But I use it mostly to feel happy regardless the weather and to feel like a boss and a caveman (under a cold shower), kind of like a drug five minutes per day :)
"If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this"
Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, are you talking about the WHM, you can learn his method (next paragraph is an affiliate + Skype offer from my side). If you're talking about the researchers of the article, it's just classical conditioning. The procedure is very well known.
About learning WHM, like I said: can learn his method. He has an online course. You can find it here http://dealguardian.net/product/831/?hop=00melo00&trackingID... I have to disclaim it is an affiliate link. I've been teaching the WHM to my friends as a birthday gift and one of them told me I should make money from it. His (paraphrased) words were: "you were in his most important experiment and trained with him for 4 days that shows that you can learn this stuff. You have credibility from that." If HNers are interested in the course let me know. I'm making 20% ($40) for each sale and I'm willing to provide 30 to 60 minutes of Skype support (depends on my schedule / study).
The reason I signed up to be an affiliate is because I believe in his method. I didn't do the online course myself, I only know some capable video/web-dev guys edited it with him. I'll also be the first to say that you should take a real course, because in my experience you can get a lot more out of it when someone is physically present. Especially in The Netherlands, there are quite a few trainers who learned his method.
When I trained with him in the experiment I passed out a couple of times, so I was happy that someone was physically present (especially the doctors from The Radboud University with oxygen tanks if things got really bad, it never did fortunately). While this may sound dangerous, remember that we needed to train as hard as we could and there were no real medical risks IMO (note: I'm not a health professional, I'm a CS and graduated psy. student).
On another note, I read half of this article and while I want to know more about it, the WHM is not like this at all. I know that no one said this but I want to make it clear, because I'm noticing some people might read into it like that. What Wim Hof does is not classical conditioning, what he basically teaches is how to produce a stress response that suppresses the immune system indirectly (and give adrenaline and make you feel like a caveman ;) ). He formulates it perhaps a bit differently though but I always listened to the doctors during the experiment when we were talking about physiology.
If you want to know more about the WHM check out my stack exchange answer about it. It's the answer I would've wanted to read before I did his experiment. http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof...
I hope this helped.
"If these researchers got more concrete about how patients can learn to do this"
Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, are you talking about the WHM, you can learn his method (next paragraph is an affiliate + Skype offer from my side). If you're talking about the researchers of the article, it's just classical conditioning. The procedure is very well known.
About learning WHM, like I said: can learn his method. He has an online course. You can find it here http://dealguardian.net/product/831/?hop=00melo00&trackingID... I have to disclaim it is an affiliate link. I've been teaching the WHM to my friends as a birthday gift and one of them told me I should make money from it. His (paraphrased) words were: "you were in his most important experiment and trained with him for 4 days that shows that you can learn this stuff. You have credibility from that." If HNers are interested in the course let me know. I'm making 20% ($40) for each sale and I'm willing to provide 30 to 60 minutes of Skype support (depends on my schedule / study).
The reason I signed up to be an affiliate is because I believe in his method. I didn't do the online course myself, I only know some capable video/web-dev guys edited it with him. I'll also be the first to say that you should take a real course, because in my experience you can get a lot more out of it when someone is physically present. Especially in The Netherlands, there are quite a few trainers who learned his method.
When I trained with him in the experiment I passed out a couple of times, so I was happy that someone was physically present (especially the doctors from The Radboud University with oxygen tanks if things got really bad, it never did fortunately). While this may sound dangerous, remember that we needed to train as hard as we could and there were no real medical risks IMO (note: I'm not a health professional, I'm a CS and graduated psy. student).
On another note, I read half of this article and while I want to know more about it, the WHM is not like this at all. I know that no one said this but I want to make it clear, because I'm noticing some people might read into it like that. What Wim Hof does is not classical conditioning, what he basically teaches is how to produce a stress response that suppresses the immune system indirectly (and give adrenaline and make you feel like a caveman ;) ). He formulates it perhaps a bit differently though but I always listened to the doctors during the experiment when we were talking about physiology.
If you want to know more about the WHM check out my stack exchange answer about it. It's the answer I would've wanted to read before I did his experiment. http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/10651/does-wim-hof...
I hope this helped.
Quote: "By the end of the year, she had received just six doses of the drug instead of the usual twelve. Marette responded just as her doctors would have hoped from the full drug amount."
I'm sorry, at this point I stopped reading. The Doctors don't know how she would have responded to the full drug, because it didn't happen! The word 'hoped' is not testable! Where was the control (Quasi-experiment)? There is just not way to tell if she would have responded better, for all we know she was 50% better than she could have been if she'd taken the full 12 doses. Or maybe 6 doses was just the right amount for her.
I do believe that the brain is a powerful tool and have read research that shows we can change things like body heat, pain and more with mind, but this story did not have anything that evaluated the impact and cannot be used as evidence of such!
I'm sorry, at this point I stopped reading. The Doctors don't know how she would have responded to the full drug, because it didn't happen! The word 'hoped' is not testable! Where was the control (Quasi-experiment)? There is just not way to tell if she would have responded better, for all we know she was 50% better than she could have been if she'd taken the full 12 doses. Or maybe 6 doses was just the right amount for her.
I do believe that the brain is a powerful tool and have read research that shows we can change things like body heat, pain and more with mind, but this story did not have anything that evaluated the impact and cannot be used as evidence of such!
I think you can just take that to mean that the response (around some reasonable window) for the real drug was indistinguishable form the non-drug response window, with the assumption that a previous use of the real drug was too far away to account for the non-drug response.
Yes, that's an assumption you should further clamp down later because of such extraordinary results, but it's not unreasonable to make it, especially since it would be really strange for the earlier real drug to cause all its effectiveness spikes right when the non-drug is taken, and in the same amount as later uses of the real drug.
Yes, that's an assumption you should further clamp down later because of such extraordinary results, but it's not unreasonable to make it, especially since it would be really strange for the earlier real drug to cause all its effectiveness spikes right when the non-drug is taken, and in the same amount as later uses of the real drug.
Hmm I'm pretty sure that 'hoped' in this case means something like: "Well, in a normal case we would have recommended 12 doses of the medicine in order to get a full recovery."
This is not like testing stuff with a computer program, you can not reset the human to a known state and replicate the experiment all over again.
Following your logic, even all vaccines are a lie, how can we know that the vaccines that we take every year are doing anything?
This is not like testing stuff with a computer program, you can not reset the human to a known state and replicate the experiment all over again.
Following your logic, even all vaccines are a lie, how can we know that the vaccines that we take every year are doing anything?
> Following your logic, even all vaccines are a lie, how can we know that the vaccines that we take every year are doing anything?
By having a basic understanding of the scientific method and control groups.
By having a basic understanding of the scientific method and control groups.
>Following your logic, even all vaccines are a lie, how can we know that the vaccines that we take every year are doing anything?
peer reviewed double blinded placebo controlled trials, this is an anecdote.
peer reviewed double blinded placebo controlled trials, this is an anecdote.
There are many, many ways to test! A control group, quasi-experiment evaluation etc. "Correlation does not imply causation". All she has is a hypothesis, a theory based on observational research, while this is ok, the article tries to pass this off as 'fact'.
I'm not staying I disagree with her 'hypothesis' but, people should require evidence before accepting it as fact. Maybe if she have quoted studies, instead she used well know experiments to justify the hypothesis. When the one experiments she did quote by Sergey Metalnikov even concludes...
"The difficulty for the investigator lies not so much in inducing such responses, but in employing the proper controls, both immunological and psychological, in order to demonstrate that these responses exist and to explore the underlying mechanisms." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK3908/
I guess a book entitled "What I think" would not sell as well.
I'm not staying I disagree with her 'hypothesis' but, people should require evidence before accepting it as fact. Maybe if she have quoted studies, instead she used well know experiments to justify the hypothesis. When the one experiments she did quote by Sergey Metalnikov even concludes...
"The difficulty for the investigator lies not so much in inducing such responses, but in employing the proper controls, both immunological and psychological, in order to demonstrate that these responses exist and to explore the underlying mechanisms." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK3908/
I guess a book entitled "What I think" would not sell as well.
Anyone who is interested in mind over matter should check out Dr. Sarno's work - http://www.amazon.com/The-Mindbody-Prescription-Healing-Body...
Similar to the vomiting poster, I had/have a longtime chronic nerve pain issue in my arms and legs that this book was tremendously helpful in managing. While fixing bad posture and a variety of other things helped, this book helped me get to the point where most days I'm in no pain.
Similar to the vomiting poster, I had/have a longtime chronic nerve pain issue in my arms and legs that this book was tremendously helpful in managing. While fixing bad posture and a variety of other things helped, this book helped me get to the point where most days I'm in no pain.
I highly recommend Sarno's work as well. I had severe tendinitis in my wrists for about 4 years. I was only able to work about 3 hours a day and was getting pretty desperate, so I decided to give what I thought was Sarno's "crackpot theory" a try. 4 weeks later my tendinitis was completely gone.
This is interesting. What kind of techniques does he advocate?
Did you read any of Dr. Sarno's other two books? I'm wondering how they compare.
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connection...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Divided-Mind-Epidemic-Disorders/dp...
Besides challenging the mind over matter, this work also challenges the idea of what to believe and pursue when scientific evidence is relatively lacking.
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Back-Pain-Mind-Body-Connection...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Divided-Mind-Epidemic-Disorders/dp...
Besides challenging the mind over matter, this work also challenges the idea of what to believe and pursue when scientific evidence is relatively lacking.
I have not - once the pain subsided I decided to take a break from all the medical reading and research for a while. Still, I'd definitely be interested in checking those out when I have a bit more free time.
You can do a lot just by deciding that's what's happening. Spent years with a mystery vomiting illness. Wallowed in my misery. One day, decided "I'm better now" - and lo and fucking behold I've been fine for a year.
Anecdotal, sure, but either the illness or the cure was in my head.
Also... Rasputin and the Romanovs - he could stop Alexei's bleeding (haemophilia) with a phone call, when physicians had had no joy - the boy took after his father and was deeply devout.
Anyway. Interesting stuff.
Anecdotal, sure, but either the illness or the cure was in my head.
Also... Rasputin and the Romanovs - he could stop Alexei's bleeding (haemophilia) with a phone call, when physicians had had no joy - the boy took after his father and was deeply devout.
Anyway. Interesting stuff.
> Anecdotal, sure, but either the illness or the cure was in my head.
A powerful thought is that your entire life experience is in your head --- your nerves relay signals from throughout your body, but it's up to your brain to interpret them, and you can change the interpretation. Some conditions can get better if you reinterpret their signals. Some conditions can get better if you relax because you feel in control. That's not to say you shouldn't take appropriate medical steps, too, I'm sure there are some things to check for with mystery vomiting, for example, but then you run out of things to check.
A powerful thought is that your entire life experience is in your head --- your nerves relay signals from throughout your body, but it's up to your brain to interpret them, and you can change the interpretation. Some conditions can get better if you reinterpret their signals. Some conditions can get better if you relax because you feel in control. That's not to say you shouldn't take appropriate medical steps, too, I'm sure there are some things to check for with mystery vomiting, for example, but then you run out of things to check.
Instead of thinking about the illness being in your head, why not think of the decision being in your body?
If there's even a difference!
Like it or not, 90% of the body's serotonin is produced by gut microbes... Dopamine, GABA and other lovely chemicals are also contributed by the endless sea of creatures within.
:)
:)
Yup - which may have been where my problems started, as I inadvertently radically modified my intestinal flora with a brutal and strict diet - for a long time put it down to having fundamentally screwed up my digestion, but towards the point when I decided to think of it differently, I had been wondering if I'd screwed up neurotransmitter levels via microbiota genocide, and was trapped in a vicious cycle - hence the decision to go "no, you don't feel nauseous, you're hungry".
Something similar happened to me when I was fighting some (likely chronic) yeast and staph infections last year. I got pretty strict with my diet and was underweight by about 10 pounds. Even though I was eating very healthy, I wasn't letting myself eat stuff I was hungry for. Eventually I decided I couldn't restrict myself anymore, and started eating regular again. I bounced back pretty well after that.
Sounds like you decided to reinterpret a bodily cue that you'd been interpreting as nausea to mean hunger. That's awesome. Reminds me of hearing that many people misinterpret thirst for hunger, and are dehydrated because of that. Also reminds me of my grandpa, who never took pain medication, even at the dentist. He said that it didn't hurt, it just felt intensely warm.
Sounds like you decided to reinterpret a bodily cue that you'd been interpreting as nausea to mean hunger. That's awesome. Reminds me of hearing that many people misinterpret thirst for hunger, and are dehydrated because of that. Also reminds me of my grandpa, who never took pain medication, even at the dentist. He said that it didn't hurt, it just felt intensely warm.
I do similar with pain - break it into its component parts, and you can experience it as a warm tickling, or pressure, if you've really managed to do a number - although some things one can't map, like having finger nails torn off - although maybe that's because it's an uncommon pain one doesn't usually get a chance to examine.
>If used widely, advocates say, substituting some of the drugs we take for placebos could save billions of dollars in healthcare costs.
Drugs are not the 'cost' per pill. It's all in development, so this is a silly point. Cost will go up, or part of the population will get slammed.
Placebo's are over rated. As such you have to be very sceptical of this article, it screams of alternative medicine. I wouldn't base much on this article alone.
http://www.dcscience.net/2015/12/11/placebo-effects-are-weak...
>In 1975, a psychologist in New York was studying taste aversion in a group of rats and got an utterly mystifying result.
I'd be very interesting if this was reproducible.
Drugs are not the 'cost' per pill. It's all in development, so this is a silly point. Cost will go up, or part of the population will get slammed.
Placebo's are over rated. As such you have to be very sceptical of this article, it screams of alternative medicine. I wouldn't base much on this article alone.
http://www.dcscience.net/2015/12/11/placebo-effects-are-weak...
>In 1975, a psychologist in New York was studying taste aversion in a group of rats and got an utterly mystifying result.
I'd be very interesting if this was reproducible.
Reminds me of the story of the Vatican official sent to judge the miraculous healing properties of a shrine. He looked at the pile of crutches, canes and wheelchairs left by "cured" people. "What? No wooden legs?"
Placebos can work in some narrow circumstances, but they cannot fix some basic problems. Pain relief? sure. But in place of an antibiotic? Expect a lawsuit.
Placebos can work in some narrow circumstances, but they cannot fix some basic problems. Pain relief? sure. But in place of an antibiotic? Expect a lawsuit.
I hadn't heard of the Vatican official story, but certainly many religiously minded people will use prayer as a self-regulated placebo.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com
Which makes me wonder if some of the more faith healing type of religions end up being sued when the prayer doesn't actually produce results.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com
Which makes me wonder if some of the more faith healing type of religions end up being sued when the prayer doesn't actually produce results.
The story is meant to have come from Lourdes, which I believe the Vatican has failed to recognize as a legit miracle despite the location being a pilgrimage for many Catholics.
Thank you for that link - a relentless, yet sensitive, dissection of religion and Christianity.
I have some creationist acquaintances who need to read this!
I have some creationist acquaintances who need to read this!
My bullshit detectors are leaping off the charts.
There are so many completely uncontrolled experiments described there, and the article just jumps to the conclusion that they demonstrate an effect. Add on top that the theory makes not a fleck of sense, and you have no credibility left.
There are so many completely uncontrolled experiments described there, and the article just jumps to the conclusion that they demonstrate an effect. Add on top that the theory makes not a fleck of sense, and you have no credibility left.
I agree it's not rigorous, but it's not necessarily bullshit.
We know the placebo effect is quite strong (stronger than we can fully account for, in fact.)
Postulating that it is possible to engage the placebo effect voluntarily is an interesting claim, but given that the placebo effect does exist it is not, on the face of it, impossible.
I'm definitely interested in more rigorous research in this area.
We know the placebo effect is quite strong (stronger than we can fully account for, in fact.)
Postulating that it is possible to engage the placebo effect voluntarily is an interesting claim, but given that the placebo effect does exist it is not, on the face of it, impossible.
I'm definitely interested in more rigorous research in this area.
I do think there is a lot of BS going on here (unsubstantiated medical claims). However, being able to engage a "full strength" placebo effect when the patient knows that it is just a placebo effect would be quite helpful. The experiment design to prove whether or not that is happening would have to be quite clever (multiple categories of placebo-unknown vs placebo-known vs meds). A few anecdotes about people being saved by magic juice definitely doesn't prove it. We know things like big bright pills are better at inducing placebo and placebo is stronger when the patient believes it will work. If we could consistently trigger a full and strong placebo effect without any medicine then it would be a useful and helpful first line of treatment for non-critical issues. Interesting indeed.
Has anyone reproduced (or tried to reproduce) the rat studies by Robert Ader or Manfred Schedlowski?
This is the only reasonable question to ask regarding the veracity of the result. Tripling/halving the post-injection/implantation/course lifespan of a sample of thirty-ish rats is nowhere near bullshit, so the next question is whether we've replicated that result.
People get their kick from caffeine the moment they start their drink even though it obviously takes much longer for caffeine to actually work. There's a little something there, but I don't know how MUCH of something.
I experimented with decaf beans once. Normally I need my normal coffee, or I get a headache.
I knowingly substituted decaf and went a few days with no headache. Good decaf is hard to come by though.
I knowingly substituted decaf and went a few days with no headache. Good decaf is hard to come by though.
I'm definitely not trying to be argumentative. But it's interesting to look at what seems like an opposing viewpoint on this.
Here's a psychologist who said that the body reacts by developing an _increased tolerance_ to drugs like caffeine and heroin, based on the time of day and situation in which those drugs are taken:
http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/02/04/philip-seymour-hoffma...
Again, I don't doubt what you're saying about the effects of caffeine on you. Not at all.
I bring this up because it's an interesting counterpoint and I don't know how to resolve it. I don't know how to think about this.
The original article focuses on specific immune suppressing drugs. Maybe the body behaves differently in the face of drugs like caffeine or heroin?
Maybe the body reacts in one direction sometimes and the other at other times for some reason (?)
Here's a psychologist who said that the body reacts by developing an _increased tolerance_ to drugs like caffeine and heroin, based on the time of day and situation in which those drugs are taken:
http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/02/04/philip-seymour-hoffma...
Again, I don't doubt what you're saying about the effects of caffeine on you. Not at all.
I bring this up because it's an interesting counterpoint and I don't know how to resolve it. I don't know how to think about this.
The original article focuses on specific immune suppressing drugs. Maybe the body behaves differently in the face of drugs like caffeine or heroin?
Maybe the body reacts in one direction sometimes and the other at other times for some reason (?)
You'd have to see how persistent it is. There have probably been studies, but give people decaf when they expect caffeine and compare against a control who expects and receives caffeine (ok, perhaps not in coffee, but a pill for measured and consistent dosage). Then you'll know how much of something it is.
Interesting stuff indeed, and it comes with a giant implication that few want to face. In the US, a country that so embarrassingly struggles with the finance of health care, preferring to insert inessential insurance and bloated pharma industries between patients and decent health outcomes, we have to expect that the news that treatment itself may be optional will be most eagerly received by those industries. It is not good to hand a fig leaf such as this idea to industries that profit from withholding care.
I was very sick as a child: I had neurodermitis (Lichen simplex chronicus) so I was constantly scratched bloody. I also had asthma and countless plant, animal and food-allergies, so I couldn't eat most things (dairy-products, sugar in every form except honey, salt, chocolate, white flour, eggs, nuts, citrus-fruits, the list goes on and on). Spent a lot of time in hospital.
When I was about 9 or 10 years old I got to a point where I was completely fed-up by all the rules I had to follow: Eat this. Don't eat this. Be careful during sports because of your asthma. There's ozone in the forest.
So I decided to ignore every single symptom until it got so strong that I'd have to go to hospital again. I also started showering cold every day and trained myself to sleep without a blanket, so I wouldn't sweat, which would irritate my skin.
I don't know when it happened, but all my problems completely disappeared over time. I'm 30 now, tests I do now and then, say my allergies and asthma are still there, but i'm more or less symptom-free.
Whenever I feel bad I consciously use the placebo-effect, for example by drinking a large glass of water and telling myself that THIS glass of water is EXACTLY what my body needed right now and will make everything better.
Note that I'm not advocating to reduce medicine: When I have a headache, I'm the first to take an aspirin. All I'm saying is that there's definitely a large cognitive component in health and feeling well, which can be trained.
When I was about 9 or 10 years old I got to a point where I was completely fed-up by all the rules I had to follow: Eat this. Don't eat this. Be careful during sports because of your asthma. There's ozone in the forest.
So I decided to ignore every single symptom until it got so strong that I'd have to go to hospital again. I also started showering cold every day and trained myself to sleep without a blanket, so I wouldn't sweat, which would irritate my skin.
I don't know when it happened, but all my problems completely disappeared over time. I'm 30 now, tests I do now and then, say my allergies and asthma are still there, but i'm more or less symptom-free.
Whenever I feel bad I consciously use the placebo-effect, for example by drinking a large glass of water and telling myself that THIS glass of water is EXACTLY what my body needed right now and will make everything better.
Note that I'm not advocating to reduce medicine: When I have a headache, I'm the first to take an aspirin. All I'm saying is that there's definitely a large cognitive component in health and feeling well, which can be trained.
So I'm not sure if this article is a hunk of lies or true, but when I want to induce the placebo effect, I just google some random ingredient in the beverage I'm drinking with "{ingredient} Cures Virus".For example "Manganese Cures Virus". You're inevitably going to find someone who says yeah it's pretty effective, and I just kinda say sure why not, I believe it. This way you know it's not expensive I mean you were already drinking it, but now that you KNOW it's there helping you it helps. You're like I'm going to feel better I've got "INGREDIENT" on my side! Additionally because it was a drink you'll probably drink some more fluids.
The thing about the internet is that you can find evidence to support your theory 100%, and evidence that does the exact opposite. The internet is not always a source of knowledge, but it can always be a source of reinforcement for one's belief.
The claims made in the article kindly submitted here (which does, by the way, come from a pretty good source publication) far exceed what reliable evidence on the issue has shown, and is characteristic of the exaggerated misunderstanding of similar study results by the article author, Jo Marchant. Marchant writes in this vein in other publications, most timed to promote her new book Cure: A Journey into the Science of Mind over Body, but careful researchers who have examined the evidence disagree that the reported effects are real and meaningful.[1] A review of the book[2] agrees with me and with the whole planet that current medical care could emphasize empathy with patients more, but finds much to disagree with in Marchant's book after commenting on many things the reviewer liked about the book. The overall review summary is
"I can’t wholeheartedly recommend the book. Overall, it gives the impression that we know much more than we do. The studies described are very preliminary and far from ready for prime time; we know that preliminary studies are often overturned by larger, better-designed studies. I found some things in the book disturbing. I don’t condone her use of the term “Western medicine;” there is only one medicine. I was appalled that after a C-section she had a VBAC at home, giving birth to her second baby underwater with the assistance of a non-NHS midwife who she believed was less likely to transfer her to a hospital if something went wrong. In my opinion, that showed very poor judgment. She misrepresents the safety of home births. She even trots out the old “death by medicine” canard. She claims that statins may only benefit 1 in 50 patients (true, but misleadingly alarmist when taken out of context as statins do save lives).
"Conclusion: Marchant has interesting ideas, but a bad title"
[1] David Gorski, 11 January 2016, "Is 'harnessing the power of placebo' worthwhile to treat anything?"
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-harnessing-the-power...
[2] Harriet Hall, 26 January 2016, "Cure Is About Caring, Not Curing: Placebos, Alternative Medicine, and Patient Comfort"
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cure-is-about-caring-no...
"I can’t wholeheartedly recommend the book. Overall, it gives the impression that we know much more than we do. The studies described are very preliminary and far from ready for prime time; we know that preliminary studies are often overturned by larger, better-designed studies. I found some things in the book disturbing. I don’t condone her use of the term “Western medicine;” there is only one medicine. I was appalled that after a C-section she had a VBAC at home, giving birth to her second baby underwater with the assistance of a non-NHS midwife who she believed was less likely to transfer her to a hospital if something went wrong. In my opinion, that showed very poor judgment. She misrepresents the safety of home births. She even trots out the old “death by medicine” canard. She claims that statins may only benefit 1 in 50 patients (true, but misleadingly alarmist when taken out of context as statins do save lives).
"Conclusion: Marchant has interesting ideas, but a bad title"
[1] David Gorski, 11 January 2016, "Is 'harnessing the power of placebo' worthwhile to treat anything?"
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-harnessing-the-power...
[2] Harriet Hall, 26 January 2016, "Cure Is About Caring, Not Curing: Placebos, Alternative Medicine, and Patient Comfort"
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cure-is-about-caring-no...
> He hit on strawberry milk mixed with green food colouring and essential oil. Its bright colour and overwhelming lavender flavour creates a bewildering mix of sensory cues, like drinking a violent, bittersweet battle between green and purple.
> So far, Schedlowski has shown that after being associated with CsA, the drink reliably induces immunosuppression in healthy volunteers, creating on average 60–80 per cent of the effect of the drug.
Interesting.
> So far, Schedlowski has shown that after being associated with CsA, the drink reliably induces immunosuppression in healthy volunteers, creating on average 60–80 per cent of the effect of the drug.
Interesting.
I used to be able to create a variety of physiological effects by focusing on them long enough. Especially in terms of heart rate, temperature, or even a mental high. Been out of practice for a long time. I will say that two I really wanted to do nearly on demand were equivalents to caffeine and good sleep. To this day, I can't eliminate the need for or problems following lack of either. ;)
> out of practice
What's practice for that like?
What's practice for that like?
Meditation is vague word. There's guides for how to do this online and in books. I tried a bunch until some worked. Basic thing was just letting go of most thoughts, focusing on one thing, intending it to happen, and letting it happen without forcing it. You need feedback like a monitor showing you numbers and paying attention to feel of your own body. Eventually, some part of brain delivers. It delivers better over time.
Best I can describe. The breathing tricks were most valuable as breathing and mental state are so interconnected. Comes in handy for calming down or pumping up. Also helpful in forms of meditation.
Best I can describe. The breathing tricks were most valuable as breathing and mental state are so interconnected. Comes in handy for calming down or pumping up. Also helpful in forms of meditation.
Any specific techniques/pointers for pumping up? It seemed to me meditation was all about relaxation, and my problem is it seems I can easily calm down but anything that would increase alertness without needing chemistry, that would be much appreciated.
Lost most memory to a brain injury in an accident. I'm coming up blank on this one unfortunately. The thing I remember was that it was about association. You associate certain songs, words, thoughts, actions, etc with emotional states. So, just as you can calm down to some, you can pump up to some faster.
Little things like walking around or even a proper warm up can help. I do remember repeating the same songs during key phases of a workout. I still have to avoid listening to those songs as I go to sleep at night as my brain gets wide awake.
Little things like walking around or even a proper warm up can help. I do remember repeating the same songs during key phases of a workout. I still have to avoid listening to those songs as I go to sleep at night as my brain gets wide awake.
Thanks a lot! Guess I might try.
As someone who used to be able to do things like that: meditation.
Tricking your sense of body position is the most fun and weird thing you can do.
Tricking your sense of body position is the most fun and weird thing you can do.
What do you mean by "sense of body position?" Sounds really cool.
The kinesthetic sense is one of your internal senses. It tells you the position of your body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
With intense focus you can trick it so it feels like your body is in a different position than it is. But you usually still know your body's true position from other senses so it ends up feeling like you're in two positions at the same time.
It's quite trippy.
With intense focus you can trick it so it feels like your body is in a different position than it is. But you usually still know your body's true position from other senses so it ends up feeling like you're in two positions at the same time.
It's quite trippy.
Never heard of that. Trippy. I always wanted to try the Crane and Piantanida experiment to see what those colors looked like. Was afraid it would screw up my brain haha.
Yoga/meditation I assume?
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Along the same lines, I have asthma, and sometimes funky smells trigger my asthma. I've often wondered how much of that was psychological. It would be really freaking awesome to suppress the psychological portion of my asthma and boost the effects of my inhalers.
Let me just remind everyone that "mind" and "body" are constructs. (I'm looking at you, "skeptics".)
for example: http://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-w...
If unspecified "mindfulness" can have such fundamental physical effects, I'm having a hard time seeing how direct psychosomatic engagement is so far fetched. Truly, while the Wisconsin studies are lumping participants' psychosomatic experiences into a broad category of "mindfulness meditation", every participants experience of "mindfulness meditation" was a unique journey into the depths of their inner world, mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually; these categories are different angles on one thing: the experience of the human animal.
for example: http://news.wisc.edu/study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-w...
If unspecified "mindfulness" can have such fundamental physical effects, I'm having a hard time seeing how direct psychosomatic engagement is so far fetched. Truly, while the Wisconsin studies are lumping participants' psychosomatic experiences into a broad category of "mindfulness meditation", every participants experience of "mindfulness meditation" was a unique journey into the depths of their inner world, mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually; these categories are different angles on one thing: the experience of the human animal.
So, the immediate followup: drugs out there that I could preemptively condition myself for that would be particularly useful in the future. Like, could I condition an epinephrine response so I have a more reliable response to an unknown allergy than hoping someone has an epipen?
Just bring your own epipen. I would not risk not being able to "believe".
This is very similar to what Wim Hof (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof) is now verifiably able to do. He's made headlines recently with his ability to control his immune response, which was previously thought impossible.
Tim Ferriss has a pretty interesting interview with him, minor language barrier notwithstanding: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/09/07/the-iceman-wim-hof/
Tim Ferriss has a pretty interesting interview with him, minor language barrier notwithstanding: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/09/07/the-iceman-wim-hof/
It's called Homeopathy.
Years and years ago, I worked as a house painter. One of the guys on the crew was a guy who went by the name Mugsy. Mugsy had a bit of a cocaine habit. Since he was a lifelong friend of the boss, this was tolerated. In any case, Mugsy worked off and on.
The boss told me once about what would happen with Mugsy on payday. The boss would pay Mugsy at the end of the day, and then they would all get in the van for the ride home. The boss told me that cocaine is often cut with baking soda, which can act as a laxative. Mugsy would be in the van on the ride home, with a pocket full of money, just dreaming about being able to spend some of that money on cocaine. The boss reasoned that Mugsy's body must have associated money with cocaine with the laxative effect of the baking soda — because every payday, Mugsy would be farting for the entire ride home. He couldn't help himself!