Samsung Recalls 2.8M Top-Load Washing Machines(npr.org)
npr.org
Samsung Recalls 2.8M Top-Load Washing Machines
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/04/500685316/samsung-recalls-2-8-million-top-load-washers-over-disloding-lids
142 comments
Few reasons. One is a positive history/experience with them. The Whirlpool made (most common machines on the market) top loading machines were rock solid for 30 plus years. People would often have them for 20-30 years. (and still have them, keep them maintained)
Another reason is they do a better job of washing clothes as they use more water. This is important for people that have kids, do cloth diapers, or are actually washing dirty/muddy clothes. They also don't have mold issues because of rubber gaskets and have been historically cheaper to maintain and repair.
The new top loaders, specifically Whirlpool made vertical modular washers are complete garbage. They break within 2-3 years of buying new. Whirlpool stopped making the direct drive top loading washers that everyone loved about 3 years ago. Now you can only buy them used, and I would highly recommend doing so if you need a good washer.
Front loading machines do spin the clothes a bit dryer, which saves on dry time, unless you hang dry, then it really doesn't make much difference. But they cost over twice as much and are about double the price when it comes to repairs. Hope that helps!
Here's a post I wrote up on the subject. http://recraigslist.com/2015/10/they-used-to-last-50-years/
Another reason is they do a better job of washing clothes as they use more water. This is important for people that have kids, do cloth diapers, or are actually washing dirty/muddy clothes. They also don't have mold issues because of rubber gaskets and have been historically cheaper to maintain and repair.
The new top loaders, specifically Whirlpool made vertical modular washers are complete garbage. They break within 2-3 years of buying new. Whirlpool stopped making the direct drive top loading washers that everyone loved about 3 years ago. Now you can only buy them used, and I would highly recommend doing so if you need a good washer.
Front loading machines do spin the clothes a bit dryer, which saves on dry time, unless you hang dry, then it really doesn't make much difference. But they cost over twice as much and are about double the price when it comes to repairs. Hope that helps!
Here's a post I wrote up on the subject. http://recraigslist.com/2015/10/they-used-to-last-50-years/
" The Whirlpool made (most common machines on the market) top loading machines were rock solid for 30 plus years. People would often have them for 20-30 years."
This is no exaggeration. The one that broke for me was estimated by the technician to be 20 years old with the dryer he said was probably 30 years old. We'd kept them for years and years with no need for repairs. They did the job.
I told him in IT that complexity just made stuff break more often or take more work to fix. My prediction was that the old stuff was still more reliable & cheaper to fix. He confirmed this was true. Said the new stuff was all garbage that kept him in good business. I asked for the most reliable, used, old washer he had in stock at their warehouse at the time. The one he gave me for $80-100 looks old as the other stuff but similarly works fine.
I never buy new washers or dryers. I'd consider newer dishwashers because both Consumer Reports I read a long time ago and personal experience had them breaking a lot. I'm curious about feedback if they've improved in reliability over time. Washers & dryers the old ones win hands down at 20-30 years operation. They're the mainframes of appliances.
This is no exaggeration. The one that broke for me was estimated by the technician to be 20 years old with the dryer he said was probably 30 years old. We'd kept them for years and years with no need for repairs. They did the job.
I told him in IT that complexity just made stuff break more often or take more work to fix. My prediction was that the old stuff was still more reliable & cheaper to fix. He confirmed this was true. Said the new stuff was all garbage that kept him in good business. I asked for the most reliable, used, old washer he had in stock at their warehouse at the time. The one he gave me for $80-100 looks old as the other stuff but similarly works fine.
I never buy new washers or dryers. I'd consider newer dishwashers because both Consumer Reports I read a long time ago and personal experience had them breaking a lot. I'm curious about feedback if they've improved in reliability over time. Washers & dryers the old ones win hands down at 20-30 years operation. They're the mainframes of appliances.
Yeah, you were wise to listen to him. Another tell is to go into used appliance stores and see what they carry the most of. Most used appliance shops won't even bother refurbishing many machines now because it's not cost effective and they don't trust that they will make it out of their warranty before breaking.
Dishwashers, stay away from Frigidaire entirely. They are made disposable. 2-3 years is the average life before needing a repair. I've had the best experience with Whirlpool dishwashers. KitchenAid has gone downhill in the past 5 years or so, in terms of quality.
Dishwashers, stay away from Frigidaire entirely. They are made disposable. 2-3 years is the average life before needing a repair. I've had the best experience with Whirlpool dishwashers. KitchenAid has gone downhill in the past 5 years or so, in terms of quality.
Just got done reading that article. Awesome stuff. One thing I was considering a few years back is redoing the old appliances that last forever to target to people interested in reducing waste and/or lower-class people as "buy once never worry again." I was mainly worried about patents but you said elsewhere the core techniques are decades old. Other concern is Energy Star affecting design or implementation cost.
In any case, what do you think of a clean-slate development that reversed some of the trends in your article?
In any case, what do you think of a clean-slate development that reversed some of the trends in your article?
Thanks!
I've thought quite a bit about it. I think the demand is there now for well-built machines as people are realizing now that their old machines were built much, much better and lasted longer. Before now, people really didn't have a contrast for those machines, so they really didn't understand how good they had it.
If someone was able to buy the patent for Whirlpool's direct drive machine, that would be ideal, then just start manufacturing those things again. People would weep tears of joy if they could buy those machines again, not exaggerating.
As far as design, there are only two designs that have ever been used. The top loader with the tall agitator and newer top loaders have the low profile agitator.
I'm still not quite sure why Whirlpool stopped making their direct drive top loaders. It was the biggest step down in quality I think I've ever seen. Machines went from lasting 8-12 years before needing some routine maintenance to mostly breaking within the first 3 years on the newly designed Vertical Modular Washers.
With enough resources and determination, the appliance industry could be turned on it's head, at least starting with washers and dryers.
I've thought quite a bit about it. I think the demand is there now for well-built machines as people are realizing now that their old machines were built much, much better and lasted longer. Before now, people really didn't have a contrast for those machines, so they really didn't understand how good they had it.
If someone was able to buy the patent for Whirlpool's direct drive machine, that would be ideal, then just start manufacturing those things again. People would weep tears of joy if they could buy those machines again, not exaggerating.
As far as design, there are only two designs that have ever been used. The top loader with the tall agitator and newer top loaders have the low profile agitator.
I'm still not quite sure why Whirlpool stopped making their direct drive top loaders. It was the biggest step down in quality I think I've ever seen. Machines went from lasting 8-12 years before needing some routine maintenance to mostly breaking within the first 3 years on the newly designed Vertical Modular Washers.
With enough resources and determination, the appliance industry could be turned on it's head, at least starting with washers and dryers.
Damn so there is a remaining patent. Buy it or not, there's at least a ticking clock toward a reliable machine. :) I reposted your article in Lobsters forum. Curious what you would reply to Ted's interesting points:
https://lobste.rs/s/3rcyqa/they_used_last_50_years_appliance...
He raises a few good points but one I don't have any detail on is the commercial washers and dryers. How much better or worse are they? What's the arrangement like in terms of is it the same crap with a profitable service contract or much better with maintenance provisions at reasonable points in time?
https://lobste.rs/s/3rcyqa/they_used_last_50_years_appliance...
He raises a few good points but one I don't have any detail on is the commercial washers and dryers. How much better or worse are they? What's the arrangement like in terms of is it the same crap with a profitable service contract or much better with maintenance provisions at reasonable points in time?
Speed Queen probably makes the highest quality machine right now. Then he's correct that it's then commercial machines. But those are very expensive and enormous in size making them impractical for consumer use.
The business model right now is really built upon the fact that there are very few appliance manufacturers left. Consolidation has taken away the competition and it seems like those remaining have set the bar pretty low. I think they know if they make a cheap dishwasher that lasts 3 years, that person will have to buy another machine. Throw in new models each year and consumers have no hope of keeping track of what brand is good and who they should trust. Confusion reigns when it comes to buying appliances. So people don't hold the manufacturers accountable. I see a lot of similarities with the mattress industry.
The business model right now is really built upon the fact that there are very few appliance manufacturers left. Consolidation has taken away the competition and it seems like those remaining have set the bar pretty low. I think they know if they make a cheap dishwasher that lasts 3 years, that person will have to buy another machine. Throw in new models each year and consumers have no hope of keeping track of what brand is good and who they should trust. Confusion reigns when it comes to buying appliances. So people don't hold the manufacturers accountable. I see a lot of similarities with the mattress industry.
As I understand it, Speed Queen bought a Whirlpool factor making old fashioned, electrical-mechanical controlled washers (and dryers, I guess) for the consumer market, and they have a great reputation in the field.
Unless one has a major fault, which is of course especially likely before it gets to you due to shipping damage or a mistake in the factory. In that case, they effectively refuse to service your machine, because they pay their 3rd party repair crew per incident, not accounting for the work required for one. So if one of those electro-mechanical control units fails, as they were eventually prone to do in the bad old days, you're all set, but ... well, after finding this out, I ended up paying > $200 for a major repair to my 2007 GE washer, and plan to continue doing that as long as possible, it was designed and manufactured before these machines went completely to shit.
Note also that in the US the Federal government pays companies to make their washers steadily do a poorer job in the name of energy efficiency (there are limits to other appliances, e.g. no one would accept a fridge which won't keep food in the safe zone, but not for washers). Whirlpool, which is essentially a pure play in appliances, didn't pay any taxes for a couple of years or so because of these credits they received from the Feds.
Unless one has a major fault, which is of course especially likely before it gets to you due to shipping damage or a mistake in the factory. In that case, they effectively refuse to service your machine, because they pay their 3rd party repair crew per incident, not accounting for the work required for one. So if one of those electro-mechanical control units fails, as they were eventually prone to do in the bad old days, you're all set, but ... well, after finding this out, I ended up paying > $200 for a major repair to my 2007 GE washer, and plan to continue doing that as long as possible, it was designed and manufactured before these machines went completely to shit.
Note also that in the US the Federal government pays companies to make their washers steadily do a poorer job in the name of energy efficiency (there are limits to other appliances, e.g. no one would accept a fridge which won't keep food in the safe zone, but not for washers). Whirlpool, which is essentially a pure play in appliances, didn't pay any taxes for a couple of years or so because of these credits they received from the Feds.
Tedu's other question was, with price comparisons, whether washer or dryers were seen as luxury items back in the 60's to 80's. Today about anyone can buy them for a grand tops. Was it the same in those time periods or lower but at same purchasing power? Has cost cutting put them in reach of more people?
You're a bit older than most of us in this sub-thread. I figured you might have an idea.
You're a bit older than most of us in this sub-thread. I figured you might have an idea.
Errr, as a member of the middle class rapidly becoming "upper middle class" during that exact period, I don't think I have much visibility into this.
I have the strong impression that white goods like your three or four basic appliances, fridge, washer, dryer and maybe freezer, were major things, and that purchases were made with care and perception of reliability key (how Sears' Kenmore brand did so well, but there was of course the reality of reliability plus good service behind their stuff as well), but then again my parents were from the Silent Generation, who's formative years were in the privations of the Great Depression and WWII. And finishing on impressions, a freezer might be considered something of a luxury (but also a money saver, especially for a big family), but not the washer and dryer.
One approach would be to get statistics on laundromats in suitable areas (i.e. don't including college towns), how have their numbers and capacities changed, if by very much at all? Also correct for family size and sex ratios, my 2 brothers plus one sister and I certainly created more dirty laundry than a smaller or more female family.
I have the strong impression that white goods like your three or four basic appliances, fridge, washer, dryer and maybe freezer, were major things, and that purchases were made with care and perception of reliability key (how Sears' Kenmore brand did so well, but there was of course the reality of reliability plus good service behind their stuff as well), but then again my parents were from the Silent Generation, who's formative years were in the privations of the Great Depression and WWII. And finishing on impressions, a freezer might be considered something of a luxury (but also a money saver, especially for a big family), but not the washer and dryer.
One approach would be to get statistics on laundromats in suitable areas (i.e. don't including college towns), how have their numbers and capacities changed, if by very much at all? Also correct for family size and sex ratios, my 2 brothers plus one sister and I certainly created more dirty laundry than a smaller or more female family.
One other thought: were disposable diapers a luxury back then? (Are they today?) My mother certainly didn't use them, and dealing with a bin of my youngest brother's used cloth diapers was nasty enough inside a private house, hard to imagine opening it inside a laundromat....
Lol. Maybe. Add that to our long-term list of stuff to figure out.
My father was tired of having to run the dryer 3 times to get his clothes dry. The local independent applianc store guy said "I sell speed queens", and showed the difference between cheap washers and Speed Queen's home products.
https://speedqueen.com/products/top-load-washers.aspx
The owner said that the motor from a modern speed queen washer could be put in the 30-year old model. He showed how the speed queen springs are heavy-duty, while the Samsung and modern maytag springs are very light.
My dad took his old dryer to the store for disposal. When he went back a few days later, he saw his old dryer for sale. It'd been opened it up, the block that none of the Sears warranty servicers could find was removed, and it was perfectly usable. Someone else had recently abandoned a kenmore front loader into the store's possession - it needed a circuit board, and wasn't worth fixing.
https://speedqueen.com/products/top-load-washers.aspx
The owner said that the motor from a modern speed queen washer could be put in the 30-year old model. He showed how the speed queen springs are heavy-duty, while the Samsung and modern maytag springs are very light.
My dad took his old dryer to the store for disposal. When he went back a few days later, he saw his old dryer for sale. It'd been opened it up, the block that none of the Sears warranty servicers could find was removed, and it was perfectly usable. Someone else had recently abandoned a kenmore front loader into the store's possession - it needed a circuit board, and wasn't worth fixing.
I was going to say that when a dryer is taking too long to dry, but it's still heating up, it's not broken. It either needs to be cleaned because it's blocked up in the lint chute, or the ducting from the dryer to the outside of the house is blocked somewhere. It probably only took them 20-30 minutes to refurbish the old dryer and it will be good for another 5-10 years.
What I shared above is very common knowledge in the repair industry, so odds are the Sears person that came out was either on his first day of the job or didn't even look at the machine. Sadly this happens a lot.
What I shared above is very common knowledge in the repair industry, so odds are the Sears person that came out was either on his first day of the job or didn't even look at the machine. Sadly this happens a lot.
Around here Miele is know as the rock solid ones.
We got a front loaded Miele washer for our wedding and it has a warranty for 10 years but is expected to easily last up to 20 with minor fixes.
We got a front loaded Miele washer for our wedding and it has a warranty for 10 years but is expected to easily last up to 20 with minor fixes.
Miele brand seems be associated with quality. They are also well known for their vacuum cleaners.
Thanks. My main fear is that my Siemens top loading washer will break. It was unique in how its control panel was located, making it possible to slip under my sink. Now this design is totally gone from the market, and I will not find a design that will fit. It is interesting that almost all models, for all brands existing, to buy new look the same.
A brand that's definitely not trying to look the same is Speed Queen.
> vastly superior energy and water efficiency of front-loading machines.
Don’t mix up the two different types of top-loaders
There’s the European Model, and the American model. The American model is inefficient, but the European model of top-loaders is just as efficient as front-loaders, far easier to construct, and requires less maintenance.
I’ll quote Wikipedia to explain the European model:
> Some machines which actually load from the top are otherwise much more similar to front-loading horizontal-axis drum machines. They have a drum rotating around a horizontal axis, as a front-loader, but there is no front door; instead there is a liftable lid which provides access to the drum, which has a hatch which can be latched shut. Clothes are loaded, the hatch and lid are closed, and the machine operates and spins just like a front-loader. These machines are narrower but usually taller than front-loaders, usually have a lower capacity, and are intended for use where only a narrow space is available, as is sometimes the case in Europe. They have incidental advantages: they can be loaded without bending down; they do not require a perishable rubber bellows seal; and instead of the drum having a single bearing on one side, it has a pair of symmetrical bearings, one on each side, avoiding asymmetrical bearing loading and potentially increasing life.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/European...
Don’t mix up the two different types of top-loaders
There’s the European Model, and the American model. The American model is inefficient, but the European model of top-loaders is just as efficient as front-loaders, far easier to construct, and requires less maintenance.
I’ll quote Wikipedia to explain the European model:
> Some machines which actually load from the top are otherwise much more similar to front-loading horizontal-axis drum machines. They have a drum rotating around a horizontal axis, as a front-loader, but there is no front door; instead there is a liftable lid which provides access to the drum, which has a hatch which can be latched shut. Clothes are loaded, the hatch and lid are closed, and the machine operates and spins just like a front-loader. These machines are narrower but usually taller than front-loaders, usually have a lower capacity, and are intended for use where only a narrow space is available, as is sometimes the case in Europe. They have incidental advantages: they can be loaded without bending down; they do not require a perishable rubber bellows seal; and instead of the drum having a single bearing on one side, it has a pair of symmetrical bearings, one on each side, avoiding asymmetrical bearing loading and potentially increasing life.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/European...
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info. How long do the European version last? Over here, it's 20-30 years with little to no maintenance. That's my baseline for these things.
Mostly the same as a front loader, maybe a bit more since they have two bearings instead of a single one. Washing performance is equivalent to an automatic front-loader, with similarly low fabric wear. Furthermore, it can also spin-dry clothes like a front-loader and that removes the majority of the moisture from clothes.
The longevity of European-style washers varies a lot. I had a cheap top loading model break after three years -- the mounts of the plastic enclosure around the drum broke, and there was no way to fix it. Those parts are made of steel in better washing machines, so those last a lot longer.
15 years is doable with some of the older brands. Just don't leave the side access on the drum open :)
Probably because they're much cheaper. Plus, it's easy to manually adjust the cycle (or add things at a later point) since you don't need to drain it to open the door.
We bought a top loader recently. It was by far the cheapest option that met our volume and reliability requirements. We estimate that an equivalent front loader would break even in about 10 years, which isn't very good.
Also, we buy used/refurb appliances when possible, and there aren't many available front loaders.
Also, we buy used/refurb appliances when possible, and there aren't many available front loaders.
Top-loading washing machines take up considerably less space than their front-loading counterparts, especially when their doors are open. It is very important in cramped flats.
But you can't put a dryer on top of it, which is a great space saver. And most dryers are front-loading, why not washing machines?
There are plenty of stacked -top-load washer and dryer combos in the US. They look like this: http://images1.americanlisted.com/nlarge/kenmore-stacked-was...
Top loaders are standard in Japan, where virtually no one uses a dryer. They strongly prefer to air dry here for a variety of reasons, not least of which is energy conservation.
In Europe most people don't own separate dryers. Washing machines have that function built-in.
Whereabouts in Europe? When I lived in Europe nobody had dryers at all.
The AirBnB I stayed at in Helsinki had a tiny washer with a built-in dryer. It fit in the bathroom which is the size of my closet in the U.S.
In my part of Europe everybody has separate washer/dryer and combo machines are hard to find/have limited options available in b&m shops.
I've used those washer/dryer combos. I don't know why they bothered, except for small loads the dryer was effectively useless.
It was faster to bag up the wet clothes and drive over to the laundromat. Gas fired dryer had a load done in 20 minutes.
It was faster to bag up the wet clothes and drive over to the laundromat. Gas fired dryer had a load done in 20 minutes.
In Europe we have a device known as "the sun". It's sort of like this big ball of flame that hangs in the sky...
Obviously you're not talking about the UK. Maybe you live in Spain.
I must admit that I do have a south-facing bay window...
The sun's drying power certainly isn't at its best at this time of year, but if I wash things after work in the evening, and get them in the sun's line of sight ready for sunrise the next day, I can expect 1 day to dry shirts (ironed in that evening's darkness)/underwear/socks, 2 days to dry pullovers/fleeces/trousers, and 3 days to dry towels/bedsheets/jeans. (That's "dry" as in "bone dry", meaning I can put them in a drawer.)
I'm sure that to people accustomed to using their 2.5 ton V8 pickup truck to drive a bag of wet clothes to be dried at a launderette like normal people, this whole thing seems improbably primitive - whatever next, outdoor loos? 3.5mm headphone jacks? - but it works for me!
The sun's drying power certainly isn't at its best at this time of year, but if I wash things after work in the evening, and get them in the sun's line of sight ready for sunrise the next day, I can expect 1 day to dry shirts (ironed in that evening's darkness)/underwear/socks, 2 days to dry pullovers/fleeces/trousers, and 3 days to dry towels/bedsheets/jeans. (That's "dry" as in "bone dry", meaning I can put them in a drawer.)
I'm sure that to people accustomed to using their 2.5 ton V8 pickup truck to drive a bag of wet clothes to be dried at a launderette like normal people, this whole thing seems improbably primitive - whatever next, outdoor loos? 3.5mm headphone jacks? - but it works for me!
I live in Cyprus. During summer drying using the fireball in the sky takes about an hour and costs nothing. It's also surprising environmentally friendly.
Line drying is always an option. But when you need a dryer you need a dryer. I don't particularly use dryers but when you have guests coming having your laundry hanging around kind of kills the atmosphere.
I live in Seattle. Please describe more of this thing your people call "sun".
Or you could dial back the snark and open your mind to the idea that not everyone lives where to do, even other Europeans.
Or you could dial back the snark and open your mind to the idea that not everyone lives where to do, even other Europeans.
You don't even need sun to hang dry clothes. When there's bad weather, we just hang the clothes in the basement. Or in the living room. It'll take a day or two, but who cares.
That's what my wife does, she refuses to dry her clothes in the dryer, saying they last longer with air drying. Apparently she's on to something; my oldest surviving clothes are about five years old (apart from my Hawaiian shirt collection which I always air dry), while she still has stuff from college that isn't faded or worn out. We are both in our late 30s.
She has several hanging racks that slip onto the top of a standard interior door; each rack can hold up to eight hangers, though in practice she only dries four or five items per rack. With three racks, that covers two loads of her shirts, blouses, jeans, and dress pants. She does use the dryer for her socks (thrown in with my clothes), as well as for our towels and bed linens, but she makes sure we don't over-dry the towels so they stay soft. We also have a line in the back yard for linens in the summertime.
Going back to the topic of top-loading versus front-loading washers, we finally had to get rid of our second-hand 30+ year old top loader when a part broke that was no longer available even on the secondhand market (basically we would have had to track down and buy a donor machine to get the part). What we bought to replace it was the closest we could get to a traditional top-loader, and so far it seems to be holding up well. It's a bit more advanced than a traditional machine; it has load sensing and a super-high speed spin cycle, and it's a hybrid digital/analog control system. I have a feeling it will probably last at most 10 years before we need to service it, which is better than I expected from a new machine. I don't remember the model number, but the brand is Amana (first I'd heard of that brand).
She has several hanging racks that slip onto the top of a standard interior door; each rack can hold up to eight hangers, though in practice she only dries four or five items per rack. With three racks, that covers two loads of her shirts, blouses, jeans, and dress pants. She does use the dryer for her socks (thrown in with my clothes), as well as for our towels and bed linens, but she makes sure we don't over-dry the towels so they stay soft. We also have a line in the back yard for linens in the summertime.
Going back to the topic of top-loading versus front-loading washers, we finally had to get rid of our second-hand 30+ year old top loader when a part broke that was no longer available even on the secondhand market (basically we would have had to track down and buy a donor machine to get the part). What we bought to replace it was the closest we could get to a traditional top-loader, and so far it seems to be holding up well. It's a bit more advanced than a traditional machine; it has load sensing and a super-high speed spin cycle, and it's a hybrid digital/analog control system. I have a feeling it will probably last at most 10 years before we need to service it, which is better than I expected from a new machine. I don't remember the model number, but the brand is Amana (first I'd heard of that brand).
Depends where in Europe. In the hotter south almost no one owns dryers. Clothes are hang dried.
I only ever had to deal with one of those.
I don't really like it.
I think all of my friends also have separate ones.
I don't really like it.
I think all of my friends also have separate ones.
Not everyone needs a drier.
A front loader dryer doesn't have a lot of water sloshing around inside it, so the load on the bearing at the back of the drum is greatly reduced, compared to a front loader washing machine.
You can buy a combo http://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/10130653/prod_2041911112?he...
I Ctrl+F'ed for "counter weight" but it does not appear anywhere here or in one of the mentioned articles.
Front loaders are harder to build, they have to use a huge counter weight due to the nature of the horizontal drum. There is only one bearing at the back that supports it all.
The vertical design is easier to build and more reliable. However, US culture is probably the dominating factor here.
Front loaders are harder to build, they have to use a huge counter weight due to the nature of the horizontal drum. There is only one bearing at the back that supports it all.
The vertical design is easier to build and more reliable. However, US culture is probably the dominating factor here.
Front loaders in the US are crap. They break down constantly and are expensive to repair and replace. Top loaders are simple, cheap, and last at least a decade with maybe just one or two minor maintenance issues.
Top losers are cheaper and more reliable. Even factoring water and energy usage.
We bought a low tech, inefficient speed queen with a 7 year warranty. The 10 year TCO is like 40% less than a comparable front loader.
We bought a low tech, inefficient speed queen with a 7 year warranty. The 10 year TCO is like 40% less than a comparable front loader.
Speed Queen now makes the best top loading machine, hands down. It's just hard to find them locally. I believe they can be purchased on Amazon now.
I have a top loader because that is what came with my house, but if I were replacing it I would probably stick with a top loader because the front loader advantages are minimal in my personal case.
My water comes from a private well and ultimately ends up in the drain field of my septic system and then presumably eventually makes it back down to the local table from whence it came. For me the cost of water is simply the cost of electricity for the well pump. I've never measured the power usage of the pump, but based on the voltage it runs at and the current rating of the circuit breaker on its circuit, and the rate it pumps water, and my electricity rates, the most it would cost to fill a large top loader is about $0.05, and so that is an upper bound on what a front loader could save me on water costs.
From what I've read the energy savings of a front loader comes from it drying better during the spin cycle, so you don't use as much energy when you use your dryer to dry the load. However, I usually do the wash in the morning, and then don't get around to moving it to the dryer until the evening. By then it has dried out quite a bit on its own, and is really just damp rather than wet. The dryer makes short work of it.
I'd have the same timing with a front loader, and so from the dryer's point of view the difference would be damp vs. less damp, not wet vs. less wet, so there would not be much energy savings.
I doubt that these tiny savings on water costs and dryer energy could make up the price difference over the lifetime of the unit.
My water comes from a private well and ultimately ends up in the drain field of my septic system and then presumably eventually makes it back down to the local table from whence it came. For me the cost of water is simply the cost of electricity for the well pump. I've never measured the power usage of the pump, but based on the voltage it runs at and the current rating of the circuit breaker on its circuit, and the rate it pumps water, and my electricity rates, the most it would cost to fill a large top loader is about $0.05, and so that is an upper bound on what a front loader could save me on water costs.
From what I've read the energy savings of a front loader comes from it drying better during the spin cycle, so you don't use as much energy when you use your dryer to dry the load. However, I usually do the wash in the morning, and then don't get around to moving it to the dryer until the evening. By then it has dried out quite a bit on its own, and is really just damp rather than wet. The dryer makes short work of it.
I'd have the same timing with a front loader, and so from the dryer's point of view the difference would be damp vs. less damp, not wet vs. less wet, so there would not be much energy savings.
I doubt that these tiny savings on water costs and dryer energy could make up the price difference over the lifetime of the unit.
I use hot water in laundry sometimes and that is a cost that you didn't mention.
My front loader takes a longer time to do a wash cycle, and I think its better spin cuts drying time by 1/3.
My front loader takes a longer time to do a wash cycle, and I think its better spin cuts drying time by 1/3.
How do you avoid mold and mildew issues when leaving damp clothes in there that long?
I didn't even know that could be an issue. I did some Googling, and it appears that how long you can leave clothes in the washer depends on local conditions, with many people reporting that they get a full day or more before it becomes a problem.
I guess I have good enough local conditions to allow for the several hours mine often sit in the washer. Maybe at some point I'll do some experiments and try to see what the limits are here, probably after I get around to building the temperature and humidity sensor network that I want to put throughout my house to better understand my HVAC system's performance.
I guess I have good enough local conditions to allow for the several hours mine often sit in the washer. Maybe at some point I'll do some experiments and try to see what the limits are here, probably after I get around to building the temperature and humidity sensor network that I want to put throughout my house to better understand my HVAC system's performance.
Cheaper, and more practical to use as you dont need to bend as much to get your clothes out.
Bought a house built in 1995 with a designated dryer closet (only place with hookups) front loaders are about 4" deeper on average than a top loader and modern top loaders barely fit as is.
I deeply believed front loading was energy wasting and only here to free the top part for interior design while looking like a fancy boat window.
That is true if you look at European Top Loaders.
US Top Loaders actually work completely different than all other washing machines, and are far more inefficient, and wash the clothes worse, and reduce their life span.
US Top Loaders actually work completely different than all other washing machines, and are far more inefficient, and wash the clothes worse, and reduce their life span.
Ha, what is wrong with America ? Is it some attachment to some kind of traditional washing machine looks that keeps people into buying them ?
They tend to be cheaper than front-loaders.
In our case, we've been buying the last of the Speed Queen line of completely mechanical washers and dryers (multiple houses). They're reasonably priced, built like tanks, and can be repaired by mortals with screwdrivers, soldering irons and wrenches.
But, apparently, they're on their way out. Frustrating.
But, apparently, they're on their way out. Frustrating.
They are cheaper
As someone who currently has a Samsung stove, I can wholeheartedly say I hate the thing. The interface is one of the worst I've seen - touch "buttons" on a stove. It does't work half the time if your hands are the slightest bit wet - which they often are after washing hands. It's incredibly frustrating, and has completely thrown me off about buying any sort of Samsung appliance.
Samsung has such potential, but it's untested things make me wonder about their long-term value.
Samsung has such potential, but it's untested things make me wonder about their long-term value.
> touch "buttons" on a stove
What exactly is the process in an organization that leads to products like this?
What exactly is the process in an organization that leads to products like this?
Touch buttons on the stove (assuming they are like the ones we have at home) mean the stove is just one flat glass pane that is impossible to make dirty.
Yes, the buttons are kinda retarded and unresponsive, but if you fry something and have droplets of burned oil fly everywhere you just take a cloth with a little detergent and it just wipes off.
No more crusty disgusting matter growing on nooks and crannies of knobs that you have to operate on to get off the damn thing
Yes, the buttons are kinda retarded and unresponsive, but if you fry something and have droplets of burned oil fly everywhere you just take a cloth with a little detergent and it just wipes off.
No more crusty disgusting matter growing on nooks and crannies of knobs that you have to operate on to get off the damn thing
Obviously it works great, and the next logical step is voice control /s
Non-contact interfaces would be a godsend in the kitchen.
Touch buttons = circuit board. Horrible idea. What could go wrong so close to excessive heat? Ovens used to last decades, and they still last longer than most other appliances, but now it's the circuit board in the control panel that goes out the most.
Touch button stoves are much easier to clean.
Who knows; it seems like everyone wants to put them in car radios too, which still strikes me as unbelievable.
My car radio is a giant touch screen. Horrible idea. I would much rather have buttons. I understand they want the buttons to change depending on context, but even then it would be better to have buttons surrounding a screen with the screen changing to show what the buttons do.
IBM used to make cash registers with little LCD panels on the physical buttons. Of course these have probably been replaced with touch screens.
IBM used to make cash registers with little LCD panels on the physical buttons. Of course these have probably been replaced with touch screens.
Going on a tangent, if you like to cook you should get a traditional gas burning stove. No fancy UI beats the simplicity pushing and turning knobs. Not to mention the heating control precision. I think that's much more important than fancy knives and other expensive tools of the trade.
You haven't seen precision until you've tried an induction stove. Instant heat, almost no residual temperature (they heat the metal of the pan directly rather than firing radiation / hot air at them) and super easy to clean.
Nope, induction is better on all fronts (control, ease of cleaning, safety). And if you buy a good brand (I currently have Miele, my previous Siemens was great too), touch controls work perfectly.
I have used a lot of induction stoves and I didn't like it very much. I just called a chef friend of mine and he agrees with me as long as you get a decent stove with big burners. Anyway, you should use whatever makes you comfortable at the kitchen. The important thing is to keep cooking and having a good time doing it.
It is amazing how many things that were a solved problem at least 40 years ago continue to be reinvented badly.
They are now expected to work with less energy and water.
https://www.energystar.gov/products/appliances/clothes_washe...
https://www.energystar.gov/products/appliances/clothes_washe...
This. I shared this link above, but I wrote a post on it. It's really sad what's happened to the appliance industry. http://recraigslist.com/2015/10/they-used-to-last-50-years/
Know-how has to be maintained. Knowledge has to be passed down to the apprentices and juniors. Otherwise it is lost over time and has to be rediscovered/reinvented, often by failures like in the article. Technological progress is never guaranteed or a certainty. Progress is the result of incremental improvements and sustainable hard work.
I suppose the classic example is concrete.
That said, is that really the problem here, or a culture of trying to rush products to the market?
That said, is that really the problem here, or a culture of trying to rush products to the market?
Another example is mechanical parts and linkages. In the early 20th century there were many incredibly intricate mechanical devices -- the Curta calculator is an example[1] -- that have been replaced by semiconductors. I wonder if those could even be made today without having to recreate the knowledge and manufacturing processes.
[1] https://calculating.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/curta-calcul...
[1] https://calculating.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/curta-calcul...
A coworker had one of those and brought it in one day, an absolute marvel to behold.
I mean I think even techniques from animation pre-computer may be hard to do today.
[deleted]
it's an insult to add 'invent' when all it does is re-skin with touchscreens.
Dang it. We bought the Samsung instead of LG, because of videos[1] that showed the LG exploding.
Top load models have a much large capacity than front loaders, but there are some serious challenges to overcome for these models that lack a central agitator column.
Despite being billed as "water saving", ours often has to repeat the setup for the spin cycle. It does this by dumping several gallons of water, sloshing the clothes around until it calculates an even load, then starting the drain+spin again.
If you are unlucky, this can happen multiple times. We are tipped off by the noise of the machine momentarily whacking into the surrrounding items in the laundry room.
It seems Samsung is offering "free repairs", but that makes me wonder if it's just a technician with a USB cable coming to reduce things like spin rate or make the machine even more likely to halt and prompt for intervention (ugh-- wet clothes are heavy).
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_z4fjiCz6tU
Top load models have a much large capacity than front loaders, but there are some serious challenges to overcome for these models that lack a central agitator column.
Despite being billed as "water saving", ours often has to repeat the setup for the spin cycle. It does this by dumping several gallons of water, sloshing the clothes around until it calculates an even load, then starting the drain+spin again.
If you are unlucky, this can happen multiple times. We are tipped off by the noise of the machine momentarily whacking into the surrrounding items in the laundry room.
It seems Samsung is offering "free repairs", but that makes me wonder if it's just a technician with a USB cable coming to reduce things like spin rate or make the machine even more likely to halt and prompt for intervention (ugh-- wet clothes are heavy).
[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_z4fjiCz6tU
The "free repair" includes "reinforcement of the washer top."
I haven't had any trouble with mine, but I don't pay much attention to it.
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2017/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-W...
https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2017/Samsung-Recalls-Top-Load-W...
That's good news. In any event, the spin cycle is fast enough (in the 1/2m•v^2 sense) that even before the recall, I wouldn't let my small kids in the same room with it. A repair still won't fix that precaution.
Is Samsung in the middle of an industrial sabatage capaign?
Looks like 2016 has been a tough year for Samsung. Obviously not directly comparable, but this has somewhat reminded me of Chipotle's past troubles and the impact its had on customer perception.
Has Chipotle's customer perception been hurt that much? I know personally the threat of E. coli infection, while certainly higher than it should have been, was not really that much worse and I certainly didn't stop going to Chipotle over it. Maybe that's just myself but I know I've heard similar sentiments from others. Has Chipotle said how much damage they think was done?
https://consumerist.com/2016/07/15/analyst-chipotles-custome...
>a customer survey by Morgan Stanley showed that 25% of customers said that they’ve either stopped going to Chipotle, or still go but stop in less often. 13% of participants said that they will no longer go back to the restaurant, which is surprisingly close to the number of customers who said the same during the food-safety crisis.
>Another survey released this week showed that while 20% of adults surveyed were “very worried” about the chain’s food safety in January, the figure had fallen to 13% this month. 26% of people surveyed said that they had not visited Chipotle since the worst of the outbreak.
>a customer survey by Morgan Stanley showed that 25% of customers said that they’ve either stopped going to Chipotle, or still go but stop in less often. 13% of participants said that they will no longer go back to the restaurant, which is surprisingly close to the number of customers who said the same during the food-safety crisis.
>Another survey released this week showed that while 20% of adults surveyed were “very worried” about the chain’s food safety in January, the figure had fallen to 13% this month. 26% of people surveyed said that they had not visited Chipotle since the worst of the outbreak.
They have negative same-store growth.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
OK, sure, but what else have you got? Shall we run a controlled double-blind experiment where we expose only half of the participants to the idea that e coli was found at Chipotle, but not the other half, and repeat it in 20 distinct different cultures?
It's not exactly a crazy theory that "people eat less at a store than has been in the national news for poisoning people". Science and logic do not require us to pretend to be complete idiots.
It's not exactly a crazy theory that "people eat less at a store than has been in the national news for poisoning people". Science and logic do not require us to pretend to be complete idiots.
I recently replaced a Samsung washer after the thing started to stain my clothes with rust that was getting generated from the internal parts of the machine chipping and exposing the rustable interior to the water. Got a Speed Queen and am happy.
I don't know what's going on with Samsung's QA process. Their cellphone apps are buggy, their newest flagship cellphone has a design flaw that is still being root-caused after global recall, now another hardware design flaw in washing machine.
But today, a complain from my friend who works in Samsung Research America at MTV may explain something: on his posted screenshot, the boss sent an email to ask them to fix bugs during the weekends...
But today, a complain from my friend who works in Samsung Research America at MTV may explain something: on his posted screenshot, the boss sent an email to ask them to fix bugs during the weekends...
Well, at least these aren't bursting into flames. (Although, hilariously enough, they are still sort of exploding, just in a different way.)
Their other model catches on fire [1]. (Under "FAQs" click "What is the issue?")
[1] http://www.samsung.com/au/washingmachinerecall/
[1] http://www.samsung.com/au/washingmachinerecall/
That is too funny, almost too good to be true...kinda like how Anthony Weiner got pulled into all this Clinton scandal business.
Funny you say it this way. I would say Hillary got pulled into the Weiner scandal..
That is a better way of saying it, I was more thinking of it from the perspective of the media coverage
Well, Samsung has made its entire business out of making the crapiest goods possible. They are masters of the "it works within the definition of 'works' according to the warranty until the warranty expires" which Americans just can't get enough of.
I own an affected model. The exchange program is seemingly not worth it. My compensation offer was $295 if I purchased a Samsung replacement, $195 for non-Samsung. I chose the "repair" because those amounts were approximately 25% at best the cost of a suitable replacement. I have several dogs, so I do a lot of laundry daily and need an expensive unit geared toward large families because of it.
I would argue this is far more serious than the phones that were recently recalled:
> "The washing machine top can unexpectedly detach from the washing machine chassis during use, posing a risk of injury from impact," according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
How scary is that? This likely could cause death. You are talking about the water, clothes, and the weight of the drum flying out and potentially hitting you.
> "The washing machine top can unexpectedly detach from the washing machine chassis during use, posing a risk of injury from impact," according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
How scary is that? This likely could cause death. You are talking about the water, clothes, and the weight of the drum flying out and potentially hitting you.
Phones that burst into flames could also cause death...
Not to mention you don't usually take your washing machine with you on a flight :p
It's highly unlikely that a phone catching fire in the cabin would bring a plane down.
It (fire) is one of the most likely thing to bring down a plane.
Yes, but a small fire in the cabin should not spread to the rest of the plane. Plane manafacturers have figured out by now that making seats etc. out of flammable material is not a good idea.
Also, I think it is statistically false that a large fraction of plane crashes are due to fire. In fact I don't even know of a plane crash that was caused by something in the passenger cabin itself catching fire.
Also, I think it is statistically false that a large fraction of plane crashes are due to fire. In fact I don't even know of a plane crash that was caused by something in the passenger cabin itself catching fire.
One of my good friends works for Boeing to fireproof their planes. He has told me stories about planes going down because small fires that result in a crash.
They also now state multiple times before they take off that anyone bringing a note 7 onto a plane must bring it to the front so they can put in a fireproof case or they will literally go to jail. Fires on planes are A BIG DEAL. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_797
They also now state multiple times before they take off that anyone bringing a note 7 onto a plane must bring it to the front so they can put in a fireproof case or they will literally go to jail. Fires on planes are A BIG DEAL. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_797
>He has told me stories about planes going down because small fires that result in a crash.
Plane crashes aren't kept secret. As far as I know, there are no instances of an in cabin fire causing a crash on a modern airliner.
The fire you linked to was caused, most likely, by faulty wiring in an inaccessible part of the plane. A fire that happens inside the passenger cabin is likely to be detected immediately, and the crew have a very good chance of extinguishing it. It's also worth noting that the same kind of accident is unlikely to happen now owing to the additional safety measures that were mandated following the investigation.
So, yes, a fire on a plane is a big deal. But the actual chances of a plane being brought down by a cell phone that catches fire are pretty small.
Plane crashes aren't kept secret. As far as I know, there are no instances of an in cabin fire causing a crash on a modern airliner.
The fire you linked to was caused, most likely, by faulty wiring in an inaccessible part of the plane. A fire that happens inside the passenger cabin is likely to be detected immediately, and the crew have a very good chance of extinguishing it. It's also worth noting that the same kind of accident is unlikely to happen now owing to the additional safety measures that were mandated following the investigation.
So, yes, a fire on a plane is a big deal. But the actual chances of a plane being brought down by a cell phone that catches fire are pretty small.
If you watch the video the aftermath does not look like it would be life threatening to be standing next to it. Could send you to the hospital though.
If you read the article, in at least one instance someone ended up with a broken jaw. That much force is definitely enough to kill someone, it would just depend where they were hit and their baseline health. Imagine a child standing next to the machine when it fell apart. Or an older person getting hit in the head.
Assuming 1400rpm and a 30cm radius loader, the edge is moving at over 150km/h. Probably close to 10kg material spinning around so that's a lot of energy. Not something I would like to be close to if it explodes.
I don't know that it's that implausible that flying shrapnel could kill or seriously injure someone if it hit them in the right place.
Top loaders do not spin as violently
Gotta wonder about that claim in light of the story we're all discussing.
Non-scientific proof: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=washing+machine...
They should pivot to military contracts.
And building exotic buildings like the Burj Khalifa in Dubai.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa#Development
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa#Development
They did develop the SGR-A1 sentry turret about a decade ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQzwI9-GHU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azQzwI9-GHU
Why does anyone buy fancy washers?
Using less water is what got me interested. When I bought it I was worried about loading the septic drainfield with excess water and soap. Then I moved to a city where water is very expensive. The energy to heat the water is a concern too.
I found that compared to a normal American style top loading machine with agitator, it takes better care of my clothing.
I happened to choose a machine that can spin at 1200 rpm, which is apparently rather fast for a laundry machine. The electric dryer seems to work a lot faster.
Now my machine is getting old, I had to repair the electronics once, and am wondering when the gasket will tear and will I be able to find a replacement, etc. I have had to repair top loaders more often but parts for these kinds of machines seem to stay in the market for 30 years or more. That's probably not going to be the case for this fancy import.
I found that compared to a normal American style top loading machine with agitator, it takes better care of my clothing.
I happened to choose a machine that can spin at 1200 rpm, which is apparently rather fast for a laundry machine. The electric dryer seems to work a lot faster.
Now my machine is getting old, I had to repair the electronics once, and am wondering when the gasket will tear and will I be able to find a replacement, etc. I have had to repair top loaders more often but parts for these kinds of machines seem to stay in the market for 30 years or more. That's probably not going to be the case for this fancy import.
Fancy dryers dry faster only because the fancy washer is spinning the clothes faster at the end of the cycle. The technology inside clothes dryers hasn't changed in 30 years, even in the fanciest models. Look up the parts, they still use all the parts and design from models 30 years ago. It's actually comical. Source: I repair dryers.
They haven't found a better way to convert electricity into heat, or a faster way to use a flame to dry the clothes. Even old dryers had moisture sensors to turn the machine off once it sensed the clothes were dry.
They haven't found a better way to convert electricity into heat, or a faster way to use a flame to dry the clothes. Even old dryers had moisture sensors to turn the machine off once it sensed the clothes were dry.
The computer brained dryer might be better at temperature regulation but otherwise I see nothing that the mechanical timer-control and simple electronics can't do.
In the old mechanical brained dryers a simple set of thermostats regulated the temperature. They can be purchased for $5 on ebay to replace if they act up. A new computer brain? $100-$200
If it's available, that is! I know most appliance repair techs are not going to go through this, but there are probably two components on the computer control that I can not buy off the shelf. The SMPS transformer and the cpu with masked firmware. The washingmachine had a third, the 3phase driver for the big motor, which is off the market now.
I figured the simplest dryers just had a "one heater, or two in series, or two in parallel" switch and a melting safety.
I figured the simplest dryers just had a "one heater, or two in series, or two in parallel" switch and a melting safety.
You can do a huge load in a reasonable amount of time with energy efficiency and usually reliability.
Energy use reduction, they're gentler on clothes, automatic programs, less noise, better detergent dosing, ...
Fancy in what way?
It's just shiny. Cosmetic only. All the parts and design elements haven't changed in decades for dryers.
Sounds like using an accelerometer to measure vibration and reduce spin speed if vibration is too high might be a good addition to washing machines.
My made in 2004 LG frontloader has a simpler device for this. A ball bearing rests in the path of an LED light. If it shakes, the ball moves, allowing the light to shine on a phototransistor. The machine will slow down or stop and toss the load around depending on how much trouble it is having.
if they get really good at retrofitting their recalled shitty hardware then maybe this'll just be something samsung owners should just expect going forward.
i hope this doesn't happen in their heavy industries unit though. can you recall ships that leak/sink.
i hope this doesn't happen in their heavy industries unit though. can you recall ships that leak/sink.
Samsung: A symbol of quality™
Does anyone know why top-loading machines persist in the US market?