Workplace Experiments at 37signals(37signals.com)
37signals.com
Workplace Experiments at 37signals
http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/893-workplace-experiments
49 comments
The problem is that most places want you to work four 10 hour days instead of five 8 hour ones. Suddenly the deal isn't so attractive.
I worked four 10's for about a year, and I can say that you just get stir crazy by the end of the day, and you don't get any more/less done than an 8 hour day. If a four day week meant 32 hours, then I could see the benefit, but to a company, that just says "20% less work will be done." If you try to argue that the same work will be done, they will ask why you are goofing off 20% of the time.
As for staggering schedules, I'm with you. It's retarded that we all work at the same time. I chose my dentist specifically because he was open on weekends (he takes tuesdays and wednesdays off).
I worked four 10's for about a year, and I can say that you just get stir crazy by the end of the day, and you don't get any more/less done than an 8 hour day. If a four day week meant 32 hours, then I could see the benefit, but to a company, that just says "20% less work will be done." If you try to argue that the same work will be done, they will ask why you are goofing off 20% of the time.
As for staggering schedules, I'm with you. It's retarded that we all work at the same time. I chose my dentist specifically because he was open on weekends (he takes tuesdays and wednesdays off).
Our company works on a half-day Friday system. We work for 8.75 hrs M-Th and 5 hrs on Fri. It seems to work well and the work days are short enough to prevent burnout.
Do you measure your work in terms of time or productivity? In a field where projects are deadlined based, should speed, efficiency, and productivity be rewarded? Do I really need to be in front of a computer for all my time as long as the task is accomplished?
Companies are still hiring based on standardized patterns established eons ago. I had thought all that rah-rah of the dot-com boom would have taught us about the information revolution and how information workers are different.
Companies are still hiring based on standardized patterns established eons ago. I had thought all that rah-rah of the dot-com boom would have taught us about the information revolution and how information workers are different.
Whoa there, surely you're not suggesting something like a "Results Oriented Workplace", only someplace truly on the cutting edge, like say a big retail chain would try something that radical ;^):
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Careers/story?id=1180149&page=...
I wonder how the experiment is going...
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Careers/story?id=1180149&page=...
I wonder how the experiment is going...
Its called society. we tend to like to do things together. Economists call it Social Capital - and it has very real value. Reducing the common time slots reduces the chance for social capital to be built up.
I think the 4-day work week is genius recruiting. How much more would you have to offer me to take a job that demanded an entire extra day of my week? How long until other smart companies start offering this benefit?
And I think they're right: you're going to get the same amount of shit done. The best developers on our team work round the clock, because they love what they're working on.
And I think they're right: you're going to get the same amount of shit done. The best developers on our team work round the clock, because they love what they're working on.
Next time you apply for a job you can try to negotiate yourself a 4 day work week. Ask if they're willing to give you a day off in exchange for a 20% pay cut.
I've never worked more than four days a week for any employer other than myself (usually three, with four and five day weeks popping up occasionally during big projects). I've always made less money because of it, of course, but from my very first real job, I've always been officially a "part time" employee. All of them occasionally asked if I wanted to go full-time...and I always refused, though sometimes the offers were quite attractive.
I've missed a couple of jobs because of this insistence of mine of not working five day weeks, but I don't think any of them would have been a particularly good fit for me, anyway, so no big loss. If the employer isn't a really good one, other employees could be bothered by one person only working three days a week, though, so I can understand employers being hesitant to hire someone with that requirement. And, when I begin hiring, I suppose I'll have to think about these kinds of issues more seriously.
I've missed a couple of jobs because of this insistence of mine of not working five day weeks, but I don't think any of them would have been a particularly good fit for me, anyway, so no big loss. If the employer isn't a really good one, other employees could be bothered by one person only working three days a week, though, so I can understand employers being hesitant to hire someone with that requirement. And, when I begin hiring, I suppose I'll have to think about these kinds of issues more seriously.
It doesn't work nearly as well if only one person gets a 4 day week. As he points out in the comments, it works at 37sig because everybody works the same days (M-Th).
It all boils down to this basic principle: a happy employee is a productive employee!
This thinking is exactly the OPPOSITE of two other very enlightening yc posts:
Here, Warren Buffet says, "Most of the managers at Berkshire have “… no financial need to work” - this simply means that the people who are working are working because they love working."
http://www.pluggd.in/2008/03/startup-entrepreneurial-lessson...
In this one, pg says that if someone gave him $1 billion, he'd still be doing "much the same thing".
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=79057
So my question is this. If you love what you're doing, why would you want to do it LESS? And if you don't love what you're doing, then why are you doing it?
Here, Warren Buffet says, "Most of the managers at Berkshire have “… no financial need to work” - this simply means that the people who are working are working because they love working."
http://www.pluggd.in/2008/03/startup-entrepreneurial-lessson...
In this one, pg says that if someone gave him $1 billion, he'd still be doing "much the same thing".
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=79057
So my question is this. If you love what you're doing, why would you want to do it LESS? And if you don't love what you're doing, then why are you doing it?
Loving something doesn't mean I want to do it all the time. I love playing my guitar, but I don't think I would enjoy playing it 40 hours a week. At my current job I seem to enjoy it much more when I work 20-30 hours/wk.
There is also the case of being forced to do things incorrectly...
And bosses that make the job uncomfortable or have a negative attitude
Lastly, you may love programming but maybe programming the stuff you think up or like, not someone else's vision or tool or w/e.
And bosses that make the job uncomfortable or have a negative attitude
Lastly, you may love programming but maybe programming the stuff you think up or like, not someone else's vision or tool or w/e.
I think the argument is: they're not working at it LESS, they're just spending less time sitting at the office. (I find the proposition dubious, I'm merely pointing out the argument.)
I agree with the proposition. It's all about not being required to be somewhere doing something. Even if I would be there anyway, it's still significant that I have the flexibility that the reduced restriction affords.
Loving your work is essential. Doing nothing but work is one dimensional and counter-productive. 37S is just highlighting the minimum expectations for their employees.
Was nobody here in the late 90's?
Every company did crap like this, and well, it didn't stick and it didn't stick for a reason.
I remember when agencies had masseuses, on-site yoga, almost every agency paid for "self-improvement" and most had half-day fridays. Not to mention all the free food, traveling expenses, etc.
It's cool they're doing it, but it's been done before and it didn't really work out the first time around so I'm not holding my breath expecting success this time around.
Mod me down if you want, but that was a big thing back in the day and how you picked which agency you went to work for.
Every company did crap like this, and well, it didn't stick and it didn't stick for a reason.
I remember when agencies had masseuses, on-site yoga, almost every agency paid for "self-improvement" and most had half-day fridays. Not to mention all the free food, traveling expenses, etc.
It's cool they're doing it, but it's been done before and it didn't really work out the first time around so I'm not holding my breath expecting success this time around.
Mod me down if you want, but that was a big thing back in the day and how you picked which agency you went to work for.
Google provides many of the services that you mentioned and they seem to be doing fine. 37signals only has 9 employees, they're very profitable for their size so I don't see it being a problem.
The key is to hire rockstars-- they produce more value in four days than a mediocre employee does given weeks. If you gave the typical person free food and time off. They'd stuff themselves until they got diabetes and spend the rest of their time watching reruns of 'Room Raiders' on MTV.
The key is to hire rockstars-- they produce more value in four days than a mediocre employee does given weeks. If you gave the typical person free food and time off. They'd stuff themselves until they got diabetes and spend the rest of their time watching reruns of 'Room Raiders' on MTV.
Bingo - you use perks like this to a) make sure your best employees would never, ever, ever consider leaving, and b) to make sure your next hire is as good or better than the existing team. If something like this takes you from being say in the top 20% of places to work to the top 2%, then you can be a lot choosier about who you hire.
I love the line of thinking here, but please don't try this with you're pre-revenue cash burning startup. Best wait till you have solid profits, plenty of users and a nice 'moat' around your business as Warren Buffet would say.
If the point is that you can be as productive working a four day week with a 3 day break I would ask why work a five day week?
Startups need productivity not man hours. If you're happy you might make a 'happier' product, be more likely to succeed with business partners, more charming to angels and VC's, more friendly with your friends and even a better lover with your lover.
Each person only has so much to give.. you can squeeze a lot at the beginning and loose later or take a steady pace and reach the goal with a lot less stress.
Startups need productivity not man hours. If you're happy you might make a 'happier' product, be more likely to succeed with business partners, more charming to angels and VC's, more friendly with your friends and even a better lover with your lover.
Each person only has so much to give.. you can squeeze a lot at the beginning and loose later or take a steady pace and reach the goal with a lot less stress.
Yep, companies can do this, but startups still have something to prove.
But companies are the only ones married to a five day workweek to begin with. The only reason you work five weekdays is to seem professional.
At a startup you should work whenever you feel like it (which is hopefully seven days a week starting at 11pm and going til dawn, with copious amounts of caffeine and loud music). But if you can get a lot done in four days and it'll keep you happy, work four days, you don't have any corporate culture to prove anything to.
At a startup you should work whenever you feel like it (which is hopefully seven days a week starting at 11pm and going til dawn, with copious amounts of caffeine and loud music). But if you can get a lot done in four days and it'll keep you happy, work four days, you don't have any corporate culture to prove anything to.
The grandparent comment gives my definition of the difference between a startup and a company:
Startup: "...pre-revenue cash burning startup."
Business/company: "...solid profits, plenty of users..."
By this definition, most YC companies would be startups while 37signals/Fog Creek/Google would be companies. Incidentally, Facebook is still a startup by this definition, despite its size.
So like you say, the startup has to do whatever possible, because as I say, they're on borrowed time. They onus is on them to demonstrate that their idea and execution is accepted by the market ("Make something people want"). In a business with customers, profits, etc, they've done that and it's just a matter or managing what has been created. When you get to that point (especially when hiring non-founders), you have room to be flexible.
Startup: "...pre-revenue cash burning startup."
Business/company: "...solid profits, plenty of users..."
By this definition, most YC companies would be startups while 37signals/Fog Creek/Google would be companies. Incidentally, Facebook is still a startup by this definition, despite its size.
So like you say, the startup has to do whatever possible, because as I say, they're on borrowed time. They onus is on them to demonstrate that their idea and execution is accepted by the market ("Make something people want"). In a business with customers, profits, etc, they've done that and it's just a matter or managing what has been created. When you get to that point (especially when hiring non-founders), you have room to be flexible.
we've got a 35 hour work week that can be split 4 or 5 (or 4.5 if you'd like to come in every other Friday...)
a 4 day workweek is like crack - I've got an extra weekend day to get things done at my own pace. go shopping when no-one else is in the malls, work on side projects, spend time with family - whatever...
Retention here is waaaayyyyy higher than any other tech job I've worked. It's easier to put up with the office politics and bureaucracy when you've got an extra day off.
BTW - Mondays off is better than Fridays off. All the problems and meetings happen on Mondays while Fridays are normally more laid back and leave you with time to do work instead of slogging though status meetings and production issues that occurred over the weekend.
a 4 day workweek is like crack - I've got an extra weekend day to get things done at my own pace. go shopping when no-one else is in the malls, work on side projects, spend time with family - whatever...
Retention here is waaaayyyyy higher than any other tech job I've worked. It's easier to put up with the office politics and bureaucracy when you've got an extra day off.
BTW - Mondays off is better than Fridays off. All the problems and meetings happen on Mondays while Fridays are normally more laid back and leave you with time to do work instead of slogging though status meetings and production issues that occurred over the weekend.
I think its brilliant, and I wish them well. Much as I sometimes get tired of 37s dogma, if there were more of them, the world would be a better place (and I am free to unsubscribe from their feed if I wanted to).
If this works, they will talk about this endlessly, which is a great thing.
If this works, they will talk about this endlessly, which is a great thing.
During an interesting project with my previous employer, a friend and I both put 80-hour weeks for a month, even though our manager told us that they can only pay us for a max of 50 hours a week due to their policies (it was a big corporation). Still we were happy to do it because the project was challenging. So when I read that 37signals is reducing their work week it puzzles me!! If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway? And how can a 5-day week and a 4-day week produce the same amount of work, unless a lot of time is wasted on non-productive activities?
Am I glad that you're not my boss. Please get a clue and read Peopleware (The "Spanish Theory Management" section applies here in spades).
"If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway?" is precisely the wrong way to look at this.
* If an employee is happy, expecting them to work more hours is probably not the best way to keep them happy.
* Productivity goes down when you spend 16 hours a day at work. Creativity suffers as well.
* Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers are too incompetent to schedule tasks appropriately.
* Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers don't understand that results aren't proportional to face time.
Any hacker aspiring to be an entrepreneur should rebel at being asked to put in 80 hour weeks for $0. You're not going to do your best work, and your life/health will suffer. It defies common sense.
"If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway?" is precisely the wrong way to look at this.
* If an employee is happy, expecting them to work more hours is probably not the best way to keep them happy.
* Productivity goes down when you spend 16 hours a day at work. Creativity suffers as well.
* Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers are too incompetent to schedule tasks appropriately.
* Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers don't understand that results aren't proportional to face time.
Any hacker aspiring to be an entrepreneur should rebel at being asked to put in 80 hour weeks for $0. You're not going to do your best work, and your life/health will suffer. It defies common sense.
You're making the assumption that I'm advocating 80 hour weeks, and then continuing to argue against it. Maybe I wasn't clear. Expecting employees to work overtime is obviously not the right approach. Creating an environment that's so much fun that employees would choose to work overtime is. I like Google's approach better than 37singals'. Google created a fun environment so that employees stay longer because the love it, not because they have to.
It's about not burning yourself out and promoting results over putting in hours. I'm sure if employees at 37signals want to work more, no one is going to stop them. You can be happy without working overtime at a job you love.
The more time that your job allows you not to be there, the more time you have to pursue passions of your own choosing. This makes for more well-rounded, happier, employees. And it's this well-roundedness that's going to pay off for them in the long-run.
Personally, I love that 37signals is challenging so much of the status quo in business.
The more time that your job allows you not to be there, the more time you have to pursue passions of your own choosing. This makes for more well-rounded, happier, employees. And it's this well-roundedness that's going to pay off for them in the long-run.
Personally, I love that 37signals is challenging so much of the status quo in business.
It's just as easy to be passionate and challenged working 32 - 40 hours a week as it is working 80 hours a week. The difference being one schedule will be maintainable and balanced, while the other will lead to inevitable burnout. Burnout hurts. A lot.
"Burnout hurts. A lot."
I think this is worth repeating every few days until it is thoroughly internalized. I burn out every once in a while...and when it happens, my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks. I have to be careful to keep exercising every day, spend a reasonable amount of time watching movies or playing music or games and interacting with other people, or a weird sort of do-nothing depression kicks in. I don't even realize it while I'm working, until it's too late. I can even be enjoying what I'm doing, and having some satisfaction about results, but if I overdo it, something clicks and the next time I run into anything slightly frustrating/boring/repetitive it's all over and the burnout kicks in.
I think this is worth repeating every few days until it is thoroughly internalized. I burn out every once in a while...and when it happens, my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks. I have to be careful to keep exercising every day, spend a reasonable amount of time watching movies or playing music or games and interacting with other people, or a weird sort of do-nothing depression kicks in. I don't even realize it while I'm working, until it's too late. I can even be enjoying what I'm doing, and having some satisfaction about results, but if I overdo it, something clicks and the next time I run into anything slightly frustrating/boring/repetitive it's all over and the burnout kicks in.
"my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks"
- for me it has been months, sometimes years. I guess it could kind of turn you off for a whole career.
- for me it has been months, sometimes years. I guess it could kind of turn you off for a whole career.
Never work more hours than they are willing to pay you for. Would your employer give you an extra 30 hours a week off because they found your startup idea interesting? No, so don't give them an extra 30 hours of work for free either.
It'd be different if you had equity or some further promise of long term benefit.
It'd be different if you had equity or some further promise of long term benefit.
Maybe I wasn't too clear. The employer didn't ask me or expect me to work overtime. In fact my manager was asking me to go home. But I was enjoying the work so much, I did it for the fun of it. And I would do it again if I come across interesting projects.
Why stop with a four day week? Maybe people would be more rested, refreshed and productive with a three day work week.
You don't know how much is enough until you know how much is too much.
You don't know how much is enough until you know how much is too much.
I love that they don't take the 5 day a week work schedule as a must do standard. Why is 5 days a week so standard across both borders and even job fields?
The power of momentum is an incredible thing.
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this schedule is coming to the big corps too; i work 4 day work weeks with wednesdays off at an electric utility companay and it's fantastic
I'd rather they paid me more and let me decide to do with the money.
So Mark's taking flight classes? Guess what, that comes out of everyone's salary. So does the extra holiday every Friday, and all those other honey-traps.
So Mark's taking flight classes? Guess what, that comes out of everyone's salary. So does the extra holiday every Friday, and all those other honey-traps.
I'm pretty sure they thought of all this, and I'm pretty sure they're profitable enough that no one's taking a pay cut to implement these ideas.
From one of the first reply comments by Jason Fried:
"Why not just pay a higher salary instead of ‘funding passions?"
"First, this isn’t really about the money. It’s about encouragement."
"We want to encourage and motivate people to find something interesting to explore. Most people can spring for their own photography classes, but how many people actually do it on their own? Most don’t but many would if they had a bit more encouragement and support."
Someone below that said:
"As far as funding passions, I’m sure there are tax benefits from having your employer pay."
From one of the first reply comments by Jason Fried:
"Why not just pay a higher salary instead of ‘funding passions?"
"First, this isn’t really about the money. It’s about encouragement."
"We want to encourage and motivate people to find something interesting to explore. Most people can spring for their own photography classes, but how many people actually do it on their own? Most don’t but many would if they had a bit more encouragement and support."
Someone below that said:
"As far as funding passions, I’m sure there are tax benefits from having your employer pay."
I'm pretty sure 37S employees are pretty well covered in the salary department, especially given the level of audi love.
I'm in NYC. We have Central Park and lots of Barnes & Nobles and Starbucks and stuff like that. If I could get the startup I have in mind going ... which I'm trying to do, just having difficulty finding available tech talent ... hint hint ... I'd have mandatory random blocks of individual "Go out and walk around Central Park for a few hours and distract your conscious mind while your subconscious mind calculates solutions" time and random blocks of group "Go out to Starbucks, get some fresh air and discuss projects outside the office for a change of pace." time.
Also weekly company movie viewings - either outings if something good is playing or good 'ol Netflix.
Our first movie would be Office Space, as a friendly reminder of why starting your own thing is the best thing to do in life.
Also weekly company movie viewings - either outings if something good is playing or good 'ol Netflix.
Our first movie would be Office Space, as a friendly reminder of why starting your own thing is the best thing to do in life.
Mandatory "go and have ideas" time? Also, Mandatory Fun Day? The flexibility to go and cruise round the city would be amazing for me (if I got a job). Tell me that I have to do it, and when, and my reply will be my resignation.
Well, let's say "strongly suggested". But then again in my experience when this is not mandatory there are always 1-2 "I'll stay in and seem extra dedicated" people. Then other people start growing roots at their desks. Then it all falls apart.
Plus think of this way: how many times do you resolve ideas passively in the shower, out on a walk, picking up dry cleaning/doing laundry, out shopping, etc.?
There's a reason that happens and just like exercise, if you don't schedule it, it's easy to let it slide when things get busy.
Plus think of this way: how many times do you resolve ideas passively in the shower, out on a walk, picking up dry cleaning/doing laundry, out shopping, etc.?
There's a reason that happens and just like exercise, if you don't schedule it, it's easy to let it slide when things get busy.
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How much more business can you get when your clients have time off on the weekend to visit you for taxes, lawyering, medical checkups, dentistry, or banking or more important for the DMV or court? Why do they insist I take off a work day or speed through congested traffic to make it to their office by 5? Why does everyone love to wait 5 days just so they can cram together at the mall or in the same restaurant?
Why go through the congested highways because EVERYONE is working at the same time?
Why? Why why why why?
Join in on my revolution my brothers.