XPS9350-macOS – macOS patches for Dell XPS 13 9350(github.com)
github.com
XPS9350-macOS – macOS patches for Dell XPS 13 9350
https://github.com/syscl/XPS9350-macOS
240 comments
I'd love to ditch OSX, but I can't work on Windows. Last time I used Windows was with Windows XP, but now that bash has been ported over, does that mean I should be able to do all the things I can do on my Macbook? SSH to remote machines, install rvm/mongo/postgres, update all my packages with something similar to brew, etc.
Why not move to Linux instead?
You'll get ssh and a package manager from the get-go. The Dell XPS 13 can be bought with Ubuntu preinstalled so you don't have to do to the trouble of setting things up yourself.
You'll get ssh and a package manager from the get-go. The Dell XPS 13 can be bought with Ubuntu preinstalled so you don't have to do to the trouble of setting things up yourself.
Why not? Mainly because it isn't finished and has a culture of not explaining anything.
When man pages start with a few practical real-world examples, I'll think about it.
When some of the more experienced Linux devs figure out a way of purging the stub code created by noobs writing "my first Linux app haw haw" and sending these vile critters on a one-way trip to space, I'll think about it.
Linux needs a benevolent dictator, like Steve Jobs, to tell people, "no, your code is shit, your idea is shit, fuck off" instead of a community that indulges every contribution no matter how lame, stupid, confusing and non-functional it is.
When I can be sure that my package manager won't break "ls" (and every other basic command) while doing a routine installation of a user level application (glibc is now toast; reinstall), I'll think about it.
Linux will stop being garbage when there aren't 17 different places to put everything and every dev assumes that every user knows all of them and is in possession of an encyclopedic knowledge of arcana going back to ENIAC.
Explain everything every time!
When man pages start with a few practical real-world examples, I'll think about it.
When some of the more experienced Linux devs figure out a way of purging the stub code created by noobs writing "my first Linux app haw haw" and sending these vile critters on a one-way trip to space, I'll think about it.
Linux needs a benevolent dictator, like Steve Jobs, to tell people, "no, your code is shit, your idea is shit, fuck off" instead of a community that indulges every contribution no matter how lame, stupid, confusing and non-functional it is.
When I can be sure that my package manager won't break "ls" (and every other basic command) while doing a routine installation of a user level application (glibc is now toast; reinstall), I'll think about it.
Linux will stop being garbage when there aren't 17 different places to put everything and every dev assumes that every user knows all of them and is in possession of an encyclopedic knowledge of arcana going back to ENIAC.
Explain everything every time!
This is so much generic FUD, any specifics of the "garbage" you're talking about. It honestly sounds like the generic FUD that was repeated about Linux a decade ago and you either haven't tried it recently or you haven't learned how to use it.*
* There was a post recently on HN, where someone was trying to use Homebrew on Linux, rather than the native package manager.
* There was a post recently on HN, where someone was trying to use Homebrew on Linux, rather than the native package manager.
I've seen you post 10 times in this thread alone with just "Oh, you can't be serious. What BS!" or something along those lines to anyone who has criticized Linux or has said that they just haven't had luck getting it to work. If you can legitimately see the problems with Linux to the average user, then maybe you need to take a few steps back and actually watch someone use it.
I have asked for specifics, none were given. This generic "Linux sucks!" attitude is not helpful and I don't have a different term for it than FUD. If you want to criticise something, share specifics.
Linux needs a benevolent dictator, like Steve Jobs, to tell people, "no, your code is shit, your idea is shit, fuck off" instead of a community that indulges every contribution no matter how lame, stupid, confusing and non-functional it is.
Someone like Linus maybe?
Someone like Linus maybe?
^ this!
I agree wholeheartedly. I was hoping Canonical was going to be this but sadly they have been rather weak.
I agree wholeheartedly. I was hoping Canonical was going to be this but sadly they have been rather weak.
Canonical seems to embody a company culture which is just about non-directional enough to start mirroring the overall Linux ecosystem culture, so yeah, rather weak.
Please report to us the steps of a "routine instalation of a user level application" breaking glibc on any modern Linux distro so it can be fixed. Otherwise I'm calling FUD.
I'd argue that Windows has actually gotten worse. The Bash on Windows thing is nice -- but Windows 10 has become such a huge pain. And obviously this is anecdotal. But I just have so many random problems with it. Things crashing, reboots whenever it wants to, constant slow downs for no apparent reason. I finally just installed Ubuntu on my laptop and I've been much happier.
I’ve had the opposite experience on my Surface Pro 4 and desktop. Everything is much more stable than on Windows 7, where I would often find myself needing to do manual maintenance after something like a power outage. On Windows 10, I haven’t had any huge problems. My Surface Pro 4 (and many others) were disasters on the first versions of Windows 10, but now it is stable.
Things have definitely gotten _better_ for me (I still run Windows 10 on my Desktop). But I had to basically reinstall everything at one point.
One tiny thing that drives me absolutely nuts: it used to be when the lock screen was showing, I could immediately start typing my password to login. Now there's this second or two delay, so the first few characters of my password don't get entered and I almost always "mistype" my password the first time I login. I don't know why, but this really bothers me.
One tiny thing that drives me absolutely nuts: it used to be when the lock screen was showing, I could immediately start typing my password to login. Now there's this second or two delay, so the first few characters of my password don't get entered and I almost always "mistype" my password the first time I login. I don't know why, but this really bothers me.
I thought I was the only one! Everyone I ever complained to has said they didn't have that problem. That alone is enough to make me quit using your software.
Weirdly I've had one noteable crash (that wasn't me messing with hardware) on windows since probably 7. However on my rMBP I get semi-regular blackscreen/beachball lockups & reboots - granted it's anecdotal, but my OSX experience has generally been worse than my windows one. Terminal, Trackpad, Keyboard (pre-butterfly), paw & sketch are the only positives I get from my MBP.
My win 10 machine bluescreens several times a week with different errors.
I use PowerShell with a command line app called chocolatey[1] as my package manager. With that, you can install the apps you need (Chrome, Firefox, for ssh use putty{ssh} or win32-openssh[2] from Microsoft, cmder for a console, curl, vim, git, etc).
[1] https://chocolatey.org/ [2] https://chocolatey.org/packages/openssh
[1] https://chocolatey.org/ [2] https://chocolatey.org/packages/openssh
Chocolatey package management is essentially built-in to Windows 10. It unfortunately hasn't gained much traction.
http://www.howtogeek.com/224111/how-to-use-packagemanagement...
http://www.howtogeek.com/224111/how-to-use-packagemanagement...
Unfortunately, you can't. For example, it's impossible to properly install PostgreSQL. Also, no 256 colors support. Currently, there are 733 open issues https://github.com/Microsoft/BashOnWindows/issues It's still a beta feature. Nowhere near the smooth macOS experience.
Honestly, with the exception of a few commands (ping & such), it's more than sufficient for 'most' stuff.
The only glaring issue is if you mount your windows drive in any form, permissions are fudged. Otherwise, perfectly capable. I'm certain there are bugs, but I use it heavily as a daily driver (admittedly, just managing remote systems) and it's mostly flaw free.
* Recently swapped from MacOS after ~5 years in their ecosystem
* ~15 year linux user prior to that.
The only glaring issue is if you mount your windows drive in any form, permissions are fudged. Otherwise, perfectly capable. I'm certain there are bugs, but I use it heavily as a daily driver (admittedly, just managing remote systems) and it's mostly flaw free.
* Recently swapped from MacOS after ~5 years in their ecosystem
* ~15 year linux user prior to that.
1. Yes it's basically Ubuntu 14.04 minus the gui
2. How can you say you can't use Windows if you haven't used one since xp??
2. How can you say you can't use Windows if you haven't used one since xp??
Since it is basically Ubuntu 14.04, if you install an Windows X Server, you can have a GUI also.
Though this is not supported (nor intended for the future), hacked into the system, very slow and full of bugs.
What are you talking about?
Exactly what is the "hack" here?
Exactly what is the "hack" here?
You're running Windows running an X server running your Linux WM to run your linux apps.
It's not a hack per se, but there's definitely more to the equation, and thus a lot more room for error.
It's not a hack per se, but there's definitely more to the equation, and thus a lot more room for error.
Can you be more specific on what errors? I'm sure there are several good X servers that available for Windows. The arrangement of running X clients that talk to a remote X server is pretty standard.
I use VcXsrv and it works fine. I edited my bashrc file so now when I open bash I can run any Linux GUI app I want. Piece of cake, runs great and stable, no issues.
app -> x server -> display -> your eyes
How is this different from native Linux?
How is this different from native Linux?
[deleted]
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so...you don't like windows, and the last time you used it was XP? LOL, okay.
To be fair, Windows XP was so awful that if I stopped using it then, I'd be hard pressed to believe it's gotten much better.
I really don't get the Hackintosh culture.
If one wants a Mac it should buy one, not kind of "pirate" it to run on a Frankenstein system. It is the whole experience that counts.
If one isn't willing to pay for Apple's hardware, or not happy with the existing options, then get a PC and whatever flavor of open source UNIX variant and help improving the whole experience.
If one wants a Mac it should buy one, not kind of "pirate" it to run on a Frankenstein system. It is the whole experience that counts.
If one isn't willing to pay for Apple's hardware, or not happy with the existing options, then get a PC and whatever flavor of open source UNIX variant and help improving the whole experience.
I've had a hackintosh. I'll speak from those of us who've built desktop Hackintosh's because of Apples lack of Pro builds that are easily updatable. For about $1200 I built a hackintosh desktop that scores about 20,000 on the Geekbench and various other scores. It's run stable, etc....for about 18 months.
It's a pain to maintain, though. (Upgrades and getting the nVidia Web drivers etc.)
I want to actually test out how well the linux sub-system and bash works on Windows 10, to see if I just move my development there. I'm already on a lot of cross compatible apps that I can run on both systems. I should probably also just move to a virtualized/containerized local dev env on Linux, though, and be done with it.
I still love me my 11" MB Air, though because no-one has been able to touch Apple on the trackpad. Also, I love how sleep with closing and opening the lid....just works.
It's a pain to maintain, though. (Upgrades and getting the nVidia Web drivers etc.)
I want to actually test out how well the linux sub-system and bash works on Windows 10, to see if I just move my development there. I'm already on a lot of cross compatible apps that I can run on both systems. I should probably also just move to a virtualized/containerized local dev env on Linux, though, and be done with it.
I still love me my 11" MB Air, though because no-one has been able to touch Apple on the trackpad. Also, I love how sleep with closing and opening the lid....just works.
As a former Hackintosher, there's the fun of it being something that's not supposed to work (sticking it to the man, one would say).
For me personally, I used to have a full-fledged personal recording studio, and the price of a Mac desktop was just ridiculous. There's no better platform for audio software than Apple.
For me personally, I used to have a full-fledged personal recording studio, and the price of a Mac desktop was just ridiculous. There's no better platform for audio software than Apple.
>Frankenstein system
They're much more stable now with Clover and UEFI installs.
>then get a PC and whatever flavor of open source UNIX variant and help improving the whole experience
Not realistic.
They're much more stable now with Clover and UEFI installs.
>then get a PC and whatever flavor of open source UNIX variant and help improving the whole experience
Not realistic.
Maybe they want OSX but not 3 year old hardware.
I get that, but I think the efforts trying to make OS X run on their hardware, would be better served improving the free UNIX desktop experience to close the gap to OS X.
[deleted]
Your karma check for today:
There once was was a user that whined
his existing OS was so blind,
he’d do better to pirate
an OS that ran great
but found his hardware declined.
Please don’t steal Mac OS!
Really, that’s way uncool.
(C) Apple Computer, Inc.
There once was was a user that whined
his existing OS was so blind,
he’d do better to pirate
an OS that ran great
but found his hardware declined.
Please don’t steal Mac OS!
Really, that’s way uncool.
(C) Apple Computer, Inc.
What's the process for updates?
Minor updates, security patches etc. via the App Store usually work just fine. Major OS updates (like going from El Capitan to Sierra) are a pain in the a. But there is no guarantee for any of this, as a rule of thumb: the closer you are to "original" hardware, the less problems you will experience.
If it's almost fully working, what isn't working?
Ah, there's a todo list, missed that on my first look through:
Ah, there's a todo list, missed that on my first look through:
Refine AppleHDA
New FixUSB.sh to fix a bug that external devices will disappear when cold boot into macOS
Import IOPowerManagement
ACPI KeyboardTODO List
Next week I have 3 final exams, so I will be back in next Wednesday! What I will do next week are listed below
- Remove patched ACPI tables directories(precomiple, raw, comiple) every time before acpi compile - Add reboot fix ResetAddress = 0xB2 and ResetValue = 0x73 to script using auto detection from FACP table - Refine ACPI patches such that all XPS 13 9350 users can enjoy(still in progress)
Refine AppleHDA New FixUSB.sh to fix a bug that external devices will disappear when cold boot into macOS Import IOPowerManagement ACPI Keyboard
Next week I have 3 final exams, so I will be back in next Wednesday! What I will do next week are listed below
- Remove patched ACPI tables directories(precomiple, raw, comiple) every time before acpi compile - Add reboot fix ResetAddress = 0xB2 and ResetValue = 0x73 to script using auto detection from FACP table - Refine ACPI patches such that all XPS 13 9350 users can enjoy(still in progress)
Refine AppleHDA New FixUSB.sh to fix a bug that external devices will disappear when cold boot into macOS Import IOPowerManagement ACPI Keyboard
The 'TODO' in the README has a list.
A video would be cool. This seems like a fun projects for hackers, but I couldn't just install this and drop it off at my mom's for her to use it seems.
Yeah. You don't want to setup your family member with a hackintosh.
However, for folks like me who are really disappointed with my MacBook Pro options, and really impressed with the PC innovation we're seeing, I'm interested.
However, for folks like me who are really disappointed with my MacBook Pro options, and really impressed with the PC innovation we're seeing, I'm interested.
I agree, even if it were running perfectly after installation Apple could break that combination anytime (intentionally or just by accident) with an update, and not doing updates is clearly also a bad idea.
I was imagining my mom taking it into an Apple Store :). Or maybe trying to get phone support:
"Ok, what type of computer do you have?" "A Dell" [silence]
"Ok, what type of computer do you have?" "A Dell" [silence]
The README file doesn't reference iMessage and Facetime. Traditionally, these are very picky about the machine they are running on and normally refuse to sign in on Hackintoshes.
Has anybody tried the steps here and tried using iMessage?
Has anybody tried the steps here and tried using iMessage?
Have you tried variations on this?[0]
[0] - https://www.reddit.com/r/hackintosh/comments/2wohwn/getting_...
[0] - https://www.reddit.com/r/hackintosh/comments/2wohwn/getting_...
Very interesting post. In it, I learned that Apple automatically blacklists Apple IDs who log into iMessage using a Hackintosh -- Apple is not "anti-Hackintosh" but spammers apparently try to create lots of accounts, calling customer support you can get yourself un-blacklisted by answering some security questions.
The instructions basically avoid the blacklist.
The instructions basically avoid the blacklist.
Cool project, congrats on getting a far as you have. Hopefully the remaining To Dos won't give you to much of a hassle!
To clarify: this is OS X (MacOS 10)? What version/release? As far as I can tell it doesn't explicitly state anywhere in the README, let alone title.
Yeah. Apple renamed "OS X" to "macOS", starting with 10.12.
There are some conditions for handling "10.12+" and "10.12-" in the Deploy.sh script, so i reckon it aims to support multiple versions.
There are some conditions for handling "10.12+" and "10.12-" in the Deploy.sh script, so i reckon it aims to support multiple versions.
The OS X name is no longer used. The Mac OS is now called MacOS.
The changelog mentions
"Fixed HD520 glitches on Sierra credit Pikeralpha"
so that implies it's the latest major release.
The changelog mentions
"Fixed HD520 glitches on Sierra credit Pikeralpha"
so that implies it's the latest major release.
There are different guides for Sierra and its predecessor.
I run a hackintosh desktop with a i7-6700K, 32GB RAM, GTX960, Samsung 950PRO. It's quite the beast in terms of performance and I've had less trouble with drivers than I had with Linux.
That being said, I have a MacBook Pro as well, and it wouldn't feel right to install macOS on a Dell notebook. Considering the value macOS has for me, and other benefits of MacBooks (build quality, trackpad, possibly screen although I haven't seen the DELL), I feel the price is fair and I don't want to undermine those creating these excellent products – you may even want to consider what today's DELLs would be without Apple. I doubt that we'd have seen retina screens without their lead.
On the Desktop, where I do a lot of work in tensorflow, Apple just doesn't give me a choice. The graphics and CPU options aren't available, and if they were, it'd be almost a 5-digit sticker price. It's probably a net positive for them because it lowers the chances of me leaving Apple to run an illegal copy of macOS.
Note that setting up a hackintosh will probably cost you at least a day the first time, and anything from "it just worked" to another day every time you want to install an update. For a professional with opportunity costs, it's a losing proposition for notebooks. The hackintosh community is also extremely unprofessional, with many tools still on sourceforge, some doing strange things that appeared to me to be attempts to get paid for work incorporating GPL code, documentation being almost exclusively of the walkthrough-type (i. e.: "set uia_exclude=HS12" with no explanation to be found anywhere as to what "uia" or "HS12" are), and the worst user interfaces ever invented by anyone not working for a printer manufacturer.
That being said, I have a MacBook Pro as well, and it wouldn't feel right to install macOS on a Dell notebook. Considering the value macOS has for me, and other benefits of MacBooks (build quality, trackpad, possibly screen although I haven't seen the DELL), I feel the price is fair and I don't want to undermine those creating these excellent products – you may even want to consider what today's DELLs would be without Apple. I doubt that we'd have seen retina screens without their lead.
On the Desktop, where I do a lot of work in tensorflow, Apple just doesn't give me a choice. The graphics and CPU options aren't available, and if they were, it'd be almost a 5-digit sticker price. It's probably a net positive for them because it lowers the chances of me leaving Apple to run an illegal copy of macOS.
Note that setting up a hackintosh will probably cost you at least a day the first time, and anything from "it just worked" to another day every time you want to install an update. For a professional with opportunity costs, it's a losing proposition for notebooks. The hackintosh community is also extremely unprofessional, with many tools still on sourceforge, some doing strange things that appeared to me to be attempts to get paid for work incorporating GPL code, documentation being almost exclusively of the walkthrough-type (i. e.: "set uia_exclude=HS12" with no explanation to be found anywhere as to what "uia" or "HS12" are), and the worst user interfaces ever invented by anyone not working for a printer manufacturer.
> I've had less trouble with drivers than I had with Linux.
I'd be interested to hear what kind of problems you had with Linux drivers on a desktop, that isn't something most of us, Linux users, had major problems with for almost a decade.
Even Pascal GPUs are supported, unlike on a Hackintosh.
I'd be interested to hear what kind of problems you had with Linux drivers on a desktop, that isn't something most of us, Linux users, had major problems with for almost a decade.
Even Pascal GPUs are supported, unlike on a Hackintosh.
On a Dell XPS 15 9550:
- Trackpad is awful and all the synaptics software and tweaks and configs I've tried can't make it work half as well as a MBP trackpad - graphics switching + sleep + power brick replugging + lid closing doesn't work ever - high power usage unless powertop --autotune is run, which breaks USB replugging and causes more havoc with sleep - mfg defect with the ribbon cable under the space bar causing the space bar to be almost unusable. Required a new keyboard and me tearing the whole thing apart to fix
The screen is gorgeous though (thin bezels + 4K IGZO + capacitive touch which I don't need) and the hinge works well even when touching it. Build quality is OK but not micron-level perfect like MBPs (the seam where the metal meets the bottom shell is off by a tiny bit and catches my finger). The power brick is bigger than an MBP equivalent and they're not ubiquitous as the MagSafe2s now are. Having real USB ports is nice, since I hate the USB dongle I have Velcro'd to the USB-C power cable for the tbMBP.
It also doesn't run Mac OS, which FWIW on the 2016 tbMBP fares about as well as the Dell with re-plugging two 4K DP USB alt-mode adapters -- I end up hard-powering the MBP >50% of the time since the internal displays and external displays won't show anything, even though the stupid touch bar lights up.
I got the Dell used on eBay for about half of retail, which is about what I consider it to be worth, while I consider the 2015 rMBP to be worth ~$1600 and the 2016 tbMBP much less.
- Trackpad is awful and all the synaptics software and tweaks and configs I've tried can't make it work half as well as a MBP trackpad - graphics switching + sleep + power brick replugging + lid closing doesn't work ever - high power usage unless powertop --autotune is run, which breaks USB replugging and causes more havoc with sleep - mfg defect with the ribbon cable under the space bar causing the space bar to be almost unusable. Required a new keyboard and me tearing the whole thing apart to fix
The screen is gorgeous though (thin bezels + 4K IGZO + capacitive touch which I don't need) and the hinge works well even when touching it. Build quality is OK but not micron-level perfect like MBPs (the seam where the metal meets the bottom shell is off by a tiny bit and catches my finger). The power brick is bigger than an MBP equivalent and they're not ubiquitous as the MagSafe2s now are. Having real USB ports is nice, since I hate the USB dongle I have Velcro'd to the USB-C power cable for the tbMBP.
It also doesn't run Mac OS, which FWIW on the 2016 tbMBP fares about as well as the Dell with re-plugging two 4K DP USB alt-mode adapters -- I end up hard-powering the MBP >50% of the time since the internal displays and external displays won't show anything, even though the stupid touch bar lights up.
I got the Dell used on eBay for about half of retail, which is about what I consider it to be worth, while I consider the 2015 rMBP to be worth ~$1600 and the 2016 tbMBP much less.
Last time I tried to convert to ubuntu on a top end HP notebook I had display, camera, fingerprint and trackpad driver roadblocks (two years ago, but not a decade). I had a roadblock on a 10 point multitouch screen this year.
Huh, I've had no troubles with HP AIOs running Debian Jessie, touchscreen works, so do the capacitive buttons controlling screen brightness/volume, and dual monitor works fine on everything (VGA, DVI, HDMI) except displayport.
It would be really nice if there was a stable, maintained, and officially supported virtual machine implementation for OS X. I have an insane desktop running Linux that can do anything and everything I need. However, if my needs suddenly expanded to include occasional Photoshop use (for example) I'd have to pull out my Macbook Pro. Yes, in my case I also have a Windows 10 VM for occasional use (probably Photoshop, don't know) but I'd much prefer OS X.
I understand why a Mac OS X virtual machine might not be completely compatible with Apple's overall business model but perhaps something available through the Apple developer program? Something, anything, would be nice.
I understand why a Mac OS X virtual machine might not be completely compatible with Apple's overall business model but perhaps something available through the Apple developer program? Something, anything, would be nice.
> It would be really nice if there was a stable, maintained, and officially supported virtual machine implementation for OS X.
I believe that there's a DLL patcher for Windows VMware that allows OS X guests. Back when I tried it last time, it worked nicely but then again I only used it for creating USB install media for repairing / reinstalling broken Macs and didn't require stuff like high-performance USB or GPU acceleration.
I believe that there's a DLL patcher for Windows VMware that allows OS X guests. Back when I tried it last time, it worked nicely but then again I only used it for creating USB install media for repairing / reinstalling broken Macs and didn't require stuff like high-performance USB or GPU acceleration.
This [0] tracks issues for a vagrant macOS setup. Not official, but its technically allowed if you already own a mac that runs the version you want.
[0]https://github.com/AndrewDryga/vagrant-box-osx
[0]https://github.com/AndrewDryga/vagrant-box-osx
I can confirm this works reasonably well and includes xcode and some other stuff IIRC.
Nvidia drivers making the display go black on boot still happens every time
Not the OP, but since I have the attention of someone who seems confident, here is the problem I have with Linux GPU drivers.
I have a desktop that's been running strong for over half a decade with Windows 7: core i7-920, dual GeForce GTS 250 graphics card (identical, no SLI bridge). It's hooked up to 3 monitors with 2 on the first card, and 1 on the second. On Windows, this works completely fine.
On Linux however, I only have one ancient version of Linux Mint Debian Edition with an old version of the Nvidia drivers working. But only in a configuration where each screen is a separate X session, so no moving windows across monitors. That's fine by me, but I don't use this install anymore because everything is out of date.
On any recent distro of Linux, the default is to use Nouveau drivers which can get all screens to activate after messing with the configurations. BUT, I either run into screen flickering, invisible mouse cursor, instability, or poor performance. That is issue #1. My thinking is ok, back to Nvidia drivers. They install fine, but I cannot get any combination of settings to activate all 3 screens either as one X session (third screen never works) or as separate X sessions like in my old install (depending on the DE I choose, either no DE is launched on the other monitors, or they do launch but the only way to run programs on the other X sessions is to manually configure the DISPLAY value to those screens and launch the program in a terminal).
Ignoring the fact that I had to give up on using the GUI configuration programs and edit xorg files like I was back in the 2000s, can you figure out a way to get my environment working in a sane manner?
I have a desktop that's been running strong for over half a decade with Windows 7: core i7-920, dual GeForce GTS 250 graphics card (identical, no SLI bridge). It's hooked up to 3 monitors with 2 on the first card, and 1 on the second. On Windows, this works completely fine.
On Linux however, I only have one ancient version of Linux Mint Debian Edition with an old version of the Nvidia drivers working. But only in a configuration where each screen is a separate X session, so no moving windows across monitors. That's fine by me, but I don't use this install anymore because everything is out of date.
On any recent distro of Linux, the default is to use Nouveau drivers which can get all screens to activate after messing with the configurations. BUT, I either run into screen flickering, invisible mouse cursor, instability, or poor performance. That is issue #1. My thinking is ok, back to Nvidia drivers. They install fine, but I cannot get any combination of settings to activate all 3 screens either as one X session (third screen never works) or as separate X sessions like in my old install (depending on the DE I choose, either no DE is launched on the other monitors, or they do launch but the only way to run programs on the other X sessions is to manually configure the DISPLAY value to those screens and launch the program in a terminal).
Ignoring the fact that I had to give up on using the GUI configuration programs and edit xorg files like I was back in the 2000s, can you figure out a way to get my environment working in a sane manner?
I think you are mixing things up, if like you say
> as separate X sessions like in my old install (depending on the DE I choose, either no DE is launched on the other monitors, or they do launch but the only way to run programs on the other X sessions is to manually configure the DISPLAY value to those screens and launch the program in a terminal).
the issue is not with the drivers, but with whatever DE you want to use. Since the vast, vast majority of people nowadays do not run multiple X screens, there isn't a lot of interest on the part of desktop environment coders to get them working (also because likely they don't have that hardware themselves and so can't try it either)
I personally also run two separate nvidia cards with two separate X screens on them, I run i3 but have had to patch several things to get it to work well enough for myself, it was doable for me to patch i3 due to having spent many years deep into X11/Xt way back, but definitely not something the average user could do and not something useful enough to a large enough number of people to warrant including in it for everybody
A desktop environment coded to expect that it's run once per computer in general won't like being launched twice in parallel (one for each screen), if you want something easy I suggest doing something like running KDE on your primary card and Gnome on the other: you will very likely have to mess with your .xinitrc to launch each separately on :0.0 and :0.1 but it should be doable
> as separate X sessions like in my old install (depending on the DE I choose, either no DE is launched on the other monitors, or they do launch but the only way to run programs on the other X sessions is to manually configure the DISPLAY value to those screens and launch the program in a terminal).
the issue is not with the drivers, but with whatever DE you want to use. Since the vast, vast majority of people nowadays do not run multiple X screens, there isn't a lot of interest on the part of desktop environment coders to get them working (also because likely they don't have that hardware themselves and so can't try it either)
I personally also run two separate nvidia cards with two separate X screens on them, I run i3 but have had to patch several things to get it to work well enough for myself, it was doable for me to patch i3 due to having spent many years deep into X11/Xt way back, but definitely not something the average user could do and not something useful enough to a large enough number of people to warrant including in it for everybody
A desktop environment coded to expect that it's run once per computer in general won't like being launched twice in parallel (one for each screen), if you want something easy I suggest doing something like running KDE on your primary card and Gnome on the other: you will very likely have to mess with your .xinitrc to launch each separately on :0.0 and :0.1 but it should be doable
Not mixing things up as I understand part of the issue lies with the DE. But that's only with separate X sessions. As I wrote, the first thing I attempted was to run it as a single X session which simply did not work. That is a driver issue. If the OP's claim that drivers are a non-issue were really true, then I wouldn't even need to attempt separate X sessions.
I only mentioned the separate X session part because that has been suggested as a "workaround" for over half a decade; hence why I even have that setup on my old install. I was simply anticipating someone posting a response claiming that it would work with such a configuration as I know the inevitable answer (I revisit trying Linux on this computer maybe once a year).
> Since the vast, vast majority of people nowadays do not run multiple X screens, there isn't a lot of interest on the part of desktop environment coders to get them working (also because likely they don't have that hardware themselves and so can't try it either)
Yup, I get that it's uncommon. It's just sad that what used to work years ago has regressed and simply does not work at all anymore. I also considered doing the .xinitrc thing you suggested, but stopped myself from wasting more time as it would just result in a frankenstein DE that wouldn't be very usable (Gnome & KDE are quite far apart in usability philosophy).
(edit: Also remember that to a non-technical user, they would simply try what the GUI suggests. Nvidia defaults to separate X sessions across different cards. Since DEs don't work with that configuration anymore, that would appear no different than a driver issue to the end user.)
I only mentioned the separate X session part because that has been suggested as a "workaround" for over half a decade; hence why I even have that setup on my old install. I was simply anticipating someone posting a response claiming that it would work with such a configuration as I know the inevitable answer (I revisit trying Linux on this computer maybe once a year).
> Since the vast, vast majority of people nowadays do not run multiple X screens, there isn't a lot of interest on the part of desktop environment coders to get them working (also because likely they don't have that hardware themselves and so can't try it either)
Yup, I get that it's uncommon. It's just sad that what used to work years ago has regressed and simply does not work at all anymore. I also considered doing the .xinitrc thing you suggested, but stopped myself from wasting more time as it would just result in a frankenstein DE that wouldn't be very usable (Gnome & KDE are quite far apart in usability philosophy).
(edit: Also remember that to a non-technical user, they would simply try what the GUI suggests. Nvidia defaults to separate X sessions across different cards. Since DEs don't work with that configuration anymore, that would appear no different than a driver issue to the end user.)
I haven't tried Xinerama in ages (is it still called that?), but even simple dual-monitor single-GPU setups have problems in KDE on Kubuntu 16.10 (plasma swaps monitordls, stacks widgets on one monitor, ignores a monitor, all randomly; I added a startup script to kill and relaunch plasma after a delay). This constant regression in features is what I dislike most about Linux lately. Eternal September in software form.
Xinerama can be enabled but has been deprecated for a long time now (circa before I built said desktop). If you do decide to use it, you'll have to learn to live with the many problems and bugs that comes with using something that hasn't been updated in years.
> This constant regression in features is what I dislike most about Linux lately. Eternal September in software form.
This is what pushed me from using Linux full time for almost a decade to jumping ship to Apple a year ago. That and people like AsyncAwait who never seem to respond to people like me who post concrete real world problems despite claiming everything negative is FUD.
> This constant regression in features is what I dislike most about Linux lately. Eternal September in software form.
This is what pushed me from using Linux full time for almost a decade to jumping ship to Apple a year ago. That and people like AsyncAwait who never seem to respond to people like me who post concrete real world problems despite claiming everything negative is FUD.
I'd love to run MacOS on excellent non-Apple laptop hardware.
I have the max-spec new 13" Touch Bar MBP, and it's a terrible laptop. The keyboard is so loud I have been banned from using it in the bedroom at night - a practice I have been doing for the entirety of my marriage. The TouchBar is so useless at night and for development work (where I extensively use ESC and F-keys) that I literally have to put another keyboard on top of the laptop.
So, please, give me MacOS running on a similar-spec non-Apple laptop with a proper, quiet keyboard and I will thank you form the bottom of my heart (and my bedroom).
I will say that the Track Pad on the latest MBP is really very nice.
I have the max-spec new 13" Touch Bar MBP, and it's a terrible laptop. The keyboard is so loud I have been banned from using it in the bedroom at night - a practice I have been doing for the entirety of my marriage. The TouchBar is so useless at night and for development work (where I extensively use ESC and F-keys) that I literally have to put another keyboard on top of the laptop.
So, please, give me MacOS running on a similar-spec non-Apple laptop with a proper, quiet keyboard and I will thank you form the bottom of my heart (and my bedroom).
I will say that the Track Pad on the latest MBP is really very nice.
You're not gonna get a better Mac laptop than a real Mac like yours.
As a side note: I have a hackintosh, with an i7 skylake, a Titian Black, 32 GB of ram running macOS Sierra and I am having an issue with sound and USB 3.0 drivers. Every time my computer goes to sleep, USB and sound stop working.
Loving the Hackintosh, but I lose a lot of my life anytime I want to change something.
Loving the Hackintosh, but I lose a lot of my life anytime I want to change something.
I ran OS X on a Dell Mini 9 laptop as my primary machine for a few years. It was fantastic and I loved it.
That being said, the more I used it, the more it made me want Apple hardware. The keyboard, trackpad, screen, magsafe, etc.
I'm now using a MBA 12" and could not be happier.
That being said, the more I used it, the more it made me want Apple hardware. The keyboard, trackpad, screen, magsafe, etc.
I'm now using a MBA 12" and could not be happier.
Wow. I used to run Ubuntu on the Mini 9 almost a decade ago (bought it with Ubuntu preloaded) and used Xmonad. It wouldn't have crossed my mind that OS X would run at all on one, given that by their nature, the Mini 9 was meant to be the least expensive Dell.
Around the time that building a Hackintosh became possible, I remember running it on an IBM R32, which I think was released in 2002. It was a useable system, except for wifi (it wouldn't recognize my PCMCIA adapter).
Hackintosh is a finnicky beast. Price doesn't have anything to do with hardware support :)
> I feel the price is fair
> Note that setting up a hackintosh will probably cost you at least a day the first time
I think they're fun to tinker with (reminds me of building a Linux machine circa 1999) but unless your time is free they're usually not a cost savings (though in your desktop use case the numbers may work out)
> Note that setting up a hackintosh will probably cost you at least a day the first time
I think they're fun to tinker with (reminds me of building a Linux machine circa 1999) but unless your time is free they're usually not a cost savings (though in your desktop use case the numbers may work out)
It works quite well on Dell laptops. There are some issues with power management but it's worth the trouble if you can do it.
Which motherboard are you using?
Build quality, trackpad and screen are the hallmarks of the XPS13 line. However, it seems very risky to install this on a laptop, since driver support and such will change on Apple's whim.
Anecdotal, but my XPS13 is nowhere near the quality of a mac.
The trackpad has problems jumping about occasionally, the wifi is unreliable to say the least (linux, but I think also on windows) and the fan spins up sounding like it's catching on something. The audio quality is atrocious.
Oh and really bad coil whine as well, a problem I've never had with macs.
However, it's fairly alright and significantly cheaper.
The trackpad has problems jumping about occasionally, the wifi is unreliable to say the least (linux, but I think also on windows) and the fan spins up sounding like it's catching on something. The audio quality is atrocious.
Oh and really bad coil whine as well, a problem I've never had with macs.
However, it's fairly alright and significantly cheaper.
I just bought an XPS 13 9360 and returned it due to the coil whine. I've never had that issue on my Macs before so once I get refunded I'm going to buy a MBP instead.
I've been hearing about the coil whine for ages, but I've never heard it over multiple 9550s and a 9360. I'm even in an office right now surrounded by the 9550s which were supposed to be plagued by the issue. Is it that the whine is occurring at a frequency I can't hear?
FWIW, I replaced my WiFi/Bluetooth adapter immediately upon receiving my 9343. I had been following the XPS13 developer edition forums for a while, and the adapter that shipped with most XPS13 had a Broadcom chipset with bad Linux support. An Intel card was recommended instead. I actually had my card on-hand hand ready to go the day I received the laptop shipment.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RCZ4I6S/ref=od_aui_deta...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RCZ4I6S/ref=od_aui_deta...
Ironically I swapped the Intel 7260 in my XPS 13 9333 out for a Broadcom chip since every ~10 seconds the thing would flake out and I'd get a spike in latency >300ms - made normal web browsing a pain, voice calls were annoying beyond belief.
The broadcom wireless cards are garbage even on windows. My 9350 came with one, and it caused issues with the thunderbolt dock and other type c devices.
There's a large difference between XPS 13 models. The 9343 was brilliant for what it was, the 9350 was a bit of a lemon, and the 9360 is the best yet.
I have to source for it, but I can't imagine any laptop having a better trackpad than MBP. Any idea how good in comparison it is?
I've tried both the XPS 13 trackpad and the MBP 13 & 15 late 2016.
I feel pretty safe to say that the XPS has by far the best trackpad experience on any Windows-based laptop I've tried but it's very much behind the MBP (IMHO!).
Yep the trackpad is what brought me to Apple and OS X is what kept me loyal.
On the late 2016 models I was honestly worried that the dimension changes introduced were a little bit too much. After a couple of weeks I haven't found any reason for going back to the previous generation, MacOS Sierra palm rejection software is pure magic and gestures across the entire OS are super smooth!
I switched from Macbook Air to XPS 13 in December. I would not say XPS is _very_ much behind on trackback at least when comparing to Air, not sure if MBP has different trackback?
Then you got lucky. My trackpad skips around horribly on my xps13. I can't believe how horrible that trackpad is.
Not sure if your XPS13 is running Win10 or Linux.
Anecdotally, I've got Fedora on mine, and I noticed a huge difference in the trackpad responsiveness when I switched from the Synaptics driver over to libinput. Palm detection got way better, for one thing.
Anecdotally, I've got Fedora on mine, and I noticed a huge difference in the trackpad responsiveness when I switched from the Synaptics driver over to libinput. Palm detection got way better, for one thing.
It's running Win10 and I've installed different drivers. It works ok after changing various settings and using my pointer and ring finger instead of pointer and middle finger for scrolling.
I like trackpad on my Dell better than on my mbpro. But i think it is matter of personal preference. I like the friction it gives.
But keyboard on my dell is leagues ahead of mbp hands down.
But keyboard on my dell is leagues ahead of mbp hands down.
>But i think it is matter of personal preference.
Not wanting the cursor to stall and then jump around is not personal preference though.
Not wanting the cursor to stall and then jump around is not personal preference though.
You never had a modern Latitude/XPS laptop in your hands then - every mac person I showed my laptops touchpad admitted that they are equally good.
Gestures work perfectly, the cursor never jumps around either - unlike other laptops with crappy touchpads.
Gestures work perfectly, the cursor never jumps around either - unlike other laptops with crappy touchpads.
Like you said, personal preference - I have the Dell at work and a MBP 2015 with the force touch trackpad at home, and I much prefer the macbook - the Dell requires more force to register a click the further away from the bottom where the MBP is even.
Aren't all these configurable in Windows? I'm pretty sure you can set it exactly the way you want...
Not that I can see but I could be wrong. I think the Apple one is just perfectly even because it's not mechanical, which I prefer.
If you don't see it under the advanced mouse settings (or whatever its called) something is wrong. Most likely you don't have the correct drivers, which is odd since they are installed automatically...
For me the top keyboard is the non-Touchbar MBPs.
Touchbar MBP's keyboard is a huge downgrade and I agree that the XPS 13's keyboard is superior. I have no idea why Apple ruined one of the best keyboard in the industry with the Touchbar range.
Touchbar MBP's keyboard is a huge downgrade and I agree that the XPS 13's keyboard is superior. I have no idea why Apple ruined one of the best keyboard in the industry with the Touchbar range.
I haven't used a MBP myself, but according to head-to-head reviews [1][2] the MBP trackpad is better. The XPS one is really great though.
[1] http://www.alphr.com/laptops/1002278/dell-xps-13-vs-macbook-...
[2] http://www.itpro.co.uk/laptops/21797/macbook-pro-15in-v-dell...
[1] http://www.alphr.com/laptops/1002278/dell-xps-13-vs-macbook-...
[2] http://www.itpro.co.uk/laptops/21797/macbook-pro-15in-v-dell...
I use an XPS 13 and 2016 MBP daily. They both have great trackpads.
The only place where the XPS 13 is inferior in terms of build quality, so far as I can tell, is coil whine. I believe they've fixed that in the most recent versions.
Also, even though it's not a big deal I'd rather not have a touch screen at all as I do on the XPS. It's useless, and registers touches when I close the lid (I prefer not to suspend if I'm just walking from one room to another)
Edit: I should note I use Ubuntu exclusively on the XPS 13. I don't know what the trackpad is like in Windows. Presumably it's comparable.
The only place where the XPS 13 is inferior in terms of build quality, so far as I can tell, is coil whine. I believe they've fixed that in the most recent versions.
Also, even though it's not a big deal I'd rather not have a touch screen at all as I do on the XPS. It's useless, and registers touches when I close the lid (I prefer not to suspend if I'm just walking from one room to another)
Edit: I should note I use Ubuntu exclusively on the XPS 13. I don't know what the trackpad is like in Windows. Presumably it's comparable.
They did not fix the coil whine. Nor the dynamic screen brightness issue. Just FYI. Oh, and the I2S mode for audio is still broken in the latest kernels (headset microphone not recognized, loud pops at power saving switchoffs), so I have to use Ubuntu to get a HDA-enabled kernel out of the box.
Also my XPS13 is 2 years old and the "carbon fiber" cover started to disintegrate along the edges. The screen hinge is a bit loose so it wobbles a bit with movement.
Other than that it's fab :)
Also my XPS13 is 2 years old and the "carbon fiber" cover started to disintegrate along the edges. The screen hinge is a bit loose so it wobbles a bit with movement.
Other than that it's fab :)
The fix for the dynamic screen brightness is to flash a firmware that dell provides for the HIDPI display. If you have the 1080p display, you are out of luck.
Just bought a brand new 9360 and the coil whine is definitely not gone.
This is the truth. Apple has mastered the trackpad. I've used some Lenovo trackpads that I would say are close, but Apple still holds this crown without a doubt.
The general shoddy build quality of most manufacturers, combined with the fact that Apple would likely sue the pants off of trackpad "clones", is my reasoning for why all other trackpads are just functionally absent when compared to Apple.
The general shoddy build quality of most manufacturers, combined with the fact that Apple would likely sue the pants off of trackpad "clones", is my reasoning for why all other trackpads are just functionally absent when compared to Apple.
I found the setup far more than a day. It took me weeks to research which hardware to buy, since what hardware you have directly affects your life after the install.
And for dot dot releases, I had a terrible time with updates because I really, really wanted a RAID 1 for my system drive (using an approved hw RAID card). Turns out, this is a very rare setup, but one that made upgrades between minor macOS releases very tricky, with the tools provided. And I got almost no help from the forums (because no one there had done it).
After two years, I gave up and got a Mac Pro 6,1. And, even though the video card I had was very beefy, Lightroom performance was much better with the nMP, I guess because Adobe supported the standard video card in the nMP but not the one in the hackintosh.
And for dot dot releases, I had a terrible time with updates because I really, really wanted a RAID 1 for my system drive (using an approved hw RAID card). Turns out, this is a very rare setup, but one that made upgrades between minor macOS releases very tricky, with the tools provided. And I got almost no help from the forums (because no one there had done it).
After two years, I gave up and got a Mac Pro 6,1. And, even though the video card I had was very beefy, Lightroom performance was much better with the nMP, I guess because Adobe supported the standard video card in the nMP but not the one in the hackintosh.
> I've had less trouble with drivers than I had with Linux.
My hackintosh (currently on my second one, it's a 2012 i5 machine) has less stability and driver issues than Windows 10 on the same hardware.
My hackintosh (currently on my second one, it's a 2012 i5 machine) has less stability and driver issues than Windows 10 on the same hardware.
I haven't tried newer versions of Windows, but the 2008 Dell workstation laptop I used for a few years was more stable under OS X than under Windows 7 or Linux. Windows 7 had an issue where the laptop's Quadro graphics card would blue screen whenever power management kicked in, that to my knowledge still isn't fixed in driver updates (the community "fix" was to keep the card running at full speed all the time). Under Linux, the graphics was an issue too — nouveau gave lackluster performance and proprietary drivers would periodically lock up.
Hackintoshed OS X (10.9 Mavericks in this case) just treats the card as an 9600M GT and runs it without issue. No panics, no lockups, and no performance hit.
Hackintoshed OS X (10.9 Mavericks in this case) just treats the card as an 9600M GT and runs it without issue. No panics, no lockups, and no performance hit.
Yeah, I've had some trouble with driver availability (the onboard bluetooth doesn't work). But nothing has ever crashed, graphics and SSD performance are what the hardware offers, even sleep works flawlessly. And I had originally planned to use Linux and hadn't even researched the hardware.
Made me think about the argument that Windows needs to support so many hardware combinations that <X> which I seem to remember sometimes hearing :) Although, to be fair, I obviously bought rather mainstream components and am not running RAIDs etc.
Made me think about the argument that Windows needs to support so many hardware combinations that <X> which I seem to remember sometimes hearing :) Although, to be fair, I obviously bought rather mainstream components and am not running RAIDs etc.
Upgraded Windows 10, clean install with Manufacturer's drivers, or truely clean install?
I've found that only by avoiding drivers direct from the manufacturer do you ever achieve true stability in Windows.
I've found that only by avoiding drivers direct from the manufacturer do you ever achieve true stability in Windows.
So well said. This is spot on.
As a Mac user of 9 years, I sold my 2015 rMBP and eventually built my own rig and went the hackintosh route. But it wasn't worth it, sound would drop after each update, I had some weird visual glitch near the Apple menu logo, there still isn't any driver support for GTX 1070/1080 cards, and I had major sleep/wake issues. In the end it wasn't a Mac experience, it was almost as much work as Desktop Linux but far less work than Windows 10.
So I stuck with Windows 10
So I stuck with Windows 10
I lasted a couple of years with my hackintosh. Every dot dot release was a nail biting 2-4 hours. Unlike you, though, I can't handle Windows. I used every version of Windows from 3.1 except Vista, and Windows 8 was the last straw for me. I still use Windows in VMs (for supporting my customers). For me macOS (on Apple hardware) is still worth it and better than the alternative. I suspect my next move will be to Linux.
Win8 was a disaster. Win10 is what 8 should have been. It's fast, stable and reliable.
Now, mostly, maybe. At launch it was a clusterfk. I use Win 10 on pretty much every device except my phone and my disposable 7" Fire tablet.
But Microsoft still find ways to screw things up.
I don't know if ICS was working pre-Anniversary update, but it certainly wasn't working reliably post-Anniversary, which screwed me right over. It'd work fine when you set it up, only to die and require disabling and re-enabling to work again.
The Anniversary update broke the DMP client (not that I use it). It mangled the IPv6 DHCP client as well for a lot of people supposedly.
And that's ignoring stuff like the awful search functionality, Windows Defender randomly breaking and effectively eating a CPU core, profiles breaking for no apparent reason, the randomly resetting/breaking non-default file associations, the regular bullcrap trying to push you to Edge, the broken gaming platform (seriously, how hard is it to accept money for the Solitaire collection upgrade?)...
That's barely scratching the surface.
But Microsoft still find ways to screw things up.
I don't know if ICS was working pre-Anniversary update, but it certainly wasn't working reliably post-Anniversary, which screwed me right over. It'd work fine when you set it up, only to die and require disabling and re-enabling to work again.
The Anniversary update broke the DMP client (not that I use it). It mangled the IPv6 DHCP client as well for a lot of people supposedly.
And that's ignoring stuff like the awful search functionality, Windows Defender randomly breaking and effectively eating a CPU core, profiles breaking for no apparent reason, the randomly resetting/breaking non-default file associations, the regular bullcrap trying to push you to Edge, the broken gaming platform (seriously, how hard is it to accept money for the Solitaire collection upgrade?)...
That's barely scratching the surface.
I use Windows 10 at work and Mac at home and find my web development work transfers pretty well across platforms. VirtualBox/Vagrant keeps the environments pretty consistent and the tooling is mainly the same for the work I do (PHP/Laravel, Python, JS/VueJS, MySQL/SQLite). My primary IDE's are VS Code and WebStorm and I use Adobe Creative Cloud for design and asset creation. Git-Bash is a big help on Windows.
Even better there's now the full Ubuntu subsystem on Windows 10. I've not really pushed much at the edges on it but it seems pretty complete.
Yes - that was my assumption too, after reading how they did it. I've installed it, launch first command (tcpdump) to sniff traffic and got error message. Second command "ip", another error. Got back to Linux :)
[deleted]
As a Zenbook owner I couldn't stand certain issues with Windows and went the Hackintosh route eventually.
Then one day I posted about it on here, realized how silly it was I was investing so much effort into turning my Windows machine into a MBP and traded it for a 2015 MBP. I took a big hit in raw power (i7 to i5, 940m to integrated) but it was worth it.
Then one day I posted about it on here, realized how silly it was I was investing so much effort into turning my Windows machine into a MBP and traded it for a 2015 MBP. I took a big hit in raw power (i7 to i5, 940m to integrated) but it was worth it.
Can you please expand on how it was worth it? Seems like you had the same OS running except on a way weaker laptop.
Most devs simply hate Windows, no matter how much better value Windows hardware gives you. I used to hate Microsoft in every sense years ago, but not anymore. Win10 is a great OS, I don't understand why more people just don't give it a chance. Especially with WSL now there's almost little excuse to use Linux or macOS other than bias against Microsoft.
For me, Windows 10 is a step backwards for consumers. Microsoft was the one of the few software giants that cared about backward compatibility and not breaking users' workflows. Google is notorious for sunsetting products depended on by people at a whim and good luck getting updates for your Macs or iPhones without buying new hardware every few years (even if older hardware is supported, often updates make the devices run slower because they've been tuned for running on the latest hardware). But the people have spoken loudly with their wallets and Microsoft has listened. It's trendy and profitable to fuck consumers. Now they aggressively pushed Windows 10 on people and it comes with forced updates, ads, and telemetry that can't be turned off without hacking about.
"forced updates, ads and telemetry"
Seriously - there is so much FUD about this it isn't funny anymore. What ads are you talking about? Sure, there are recommended apps (can be turned off), apps preinstalled (takes 30 secs to uninstall them) and telemetry (easily turn it all off in Settings).
So-called "developers" and tech enthusiasts are smart enough to get Linux up and running in a heatbeat yet struggle to turn a few things off in Windows that takes 1 minute at most to do. Please.
Seriously - there is so much FUD about this it isn't funny anymore. What ads are you talking about? Sure, there are recommended apps (can be turned off), apps preinstalled (takes 30 secs to uninstall them) and telemetry (easily turn it all off in Settings).
So-called "developers" and tech enthusiasts are smart enough to get Linux up and running in a heatbeat yet struggle to turn a few things off in Windows that takes 1 minute at most to do. Please.
You've basically answered his answer. You can't ask someone what they're talking about and then go on to describe three situations that answered the questions. It's not FUD when it is a known fact.
None of these things should've been opt-in for an OS by default. Microsoft is already updating the setup/first-run experience to inform the users about the telemetry options and let them opt-out.
Every Windows Update that I've installed on my SP4 has reset these settings back on, thus yes, it is somewhat forced on me. I'm definitely not the only one who had this happened as many complaints in Feedback Hub was about this and other MS forums. In fact, it was only recently that MS said they'd keep track of the default app settings to prevent reinstalling them upon updates.
And I did have Windows update forcibly install itself in the middle of a session when it was supposed to wait until later.
None of these things should've been opt-in for an OS by default. Microsoft is already updating the setup/first-run experience to inform the users about the telemetry options and let them opt-out.
Every Windows Update that I've installed on my SP4 has reset these settings back on, thus yes, it is somewhat forced on me. I'm definitely not the only one who had this happened as many complaints in Feedback Hub was about this and other MS forums. In fact, it was only recently that MS said they'd keep track of the default app settings to prevent reinstalling them upon updates.
And I did have Windows update forcibly install itself in the middle of a session when it was supposed to wait until later.
Incorrect. There is no supported way to disable telemetry in Windows 10 Home and Pro. It can only be disabled in Windows 10 Enterprise and Education editions.
You need to download a third-party program like O&O's Shutup10 to disable telemetry. As this is not a supported method, Microsoft ignores the user's clear preferences and turns it back on with every major OS update.
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
You can indeed opt-out of ads, you're correct there.
You need to download a third-party program like O&O's Shutup10 to disable telemetry. As this is not a supported method, Microsoft ignores the user's clear preferences and turns it back on with every major OS update.
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
You can indeed opt-out of ads, you're correct there.
> telemetry (easily turn it all off in Settings).
Not unless you are running enterprise.
Also, I also find that things I've removed get reinstalled on updates. And that updates reboot my win10 computer unexpectedly. And that I have to hack registry and kill processes to stop that - but that updates occasionally circumvent my circumvention.
Seriously, Windows is hostile. I was forced to pay for an OS that goes to great pains to be hostile to me and subvert my wishes and configuration. DO NOT WANT! (And do not use, except for one machine that I'm forced to use to support some customers).
Not unless you are running enterprise.
Also, I also find that things I've removed get reinstalled on updates. And that updates reboot my win10 computer unexpectedly. And that I have to hack registry and kill processes to stop that - but that updates occasionally circumvent my circumvention.
Seriously, Windows is hostile. I was forced to pay for an OS that goes to great pains to be hostile to me and subvert my wishes and configuration. DO NOT WANT! (And do not use, except for one machine that I'm forced to use to support some customers).
Ads now appear in the start menu and on the lock screen. Turning off suggestions does not stop all ads. For example, my start menu tiles currently include Minecraft: Windows 10 Edition and Microsoft Solitaire.
right-click --> uninstall. Not difficult.
I installed Yosemite on a Mac Pro from 2009 and it ran like a champ, the only thing that was slow was video transcoding. Stop with the FUD.
I can't even get updates for my original iPad any longer. It's stuck at 5.1 or something like that.
I installed iOS 7 on my iPhone 4 and the code is so unsuited for that device that many UI elements don't respond to touches and gestures made at normal human speed. You have to slow down by a factor of two or more for things to register. Trying to double-click the home button is an exercise in frustration.
It's definitely not FUD that apple releases OS upgrades that don't do well on older hardware.
I installed iOS 7 on my iPhone 4 and the code is so unsuited for that device that many UI elements don't respond to touches and gestures made at normal human speed. You have to slow down by a factor of two or more for things to register. Trying to double-click the home button is an exercise in frustration.
It's definitely not FUD that apple releases OS upgrades that don't do well on older hardware.
That's absolutely true on mobile platforms, which have made major advances in both performance and architecture over the past couple of years.
It isn't true on PC hardware, where a modern kaby lake i5 performs similarly on desktop tasks to a a 5 year old ivy bridge i5. PC hardware has advanced tremendously in power efficiency, but much less so in performance.
It isn't true on PC hardware, where a modern kaby lake i5 performs similarly on desktop tasks to a a 5 year old ivy bridge i5. PC hardware has advanced tremendously in power efficiency, but much less so in performance.
For me, the problem is high DPI support. It just works in macOS, even when mixing high DPI screens with lower DPI ones. In all the version of Windows I tried, including 10, things look like garbage. Things are too big, or too small, or pixelated, or blurry.
I could understand it when Windows 8 first came out, and high DPI screens were still relatively rare. But for the support to still be so bad, years later, is unforgivable.
I could understand it when Windows 8 first came out, and high DPI screens were still relatively rare. But for the support to still be so bad, years later, is unforgivable.
Is there a difference between dpi support for third party apps versus Microsoft apps? I wonder if apple simply has more control over the graphics stack than Microsoft does, or maybe has more leverage over its developers to add high dpi support.
The difference is that the vast majority of third party app devs developing for macOS use Cocoa/AppKit, the system's native UI toolkit. Because of that, all Apple had to do is get HiDPI mode and a decent fallback (2x scaling) working in Cocoa and boom, 90%+ of all Mac apps, even those that stopped getting updates, have proper retina support. Devs didn't even need to recompile; at first it was an option in a property file in the app bundle (enabling users to "turn on" HiDPI support in older apps by editing the file), and later it was turned on for all apps.
Compare this to the situation on Windows where people using the native toolkit is a rarity, with tens or hundreds of different UI toolkits in use and even a bunch of totally custom UI, much of which assumes a 90 DPI desktop. There's really not much MS can do about that except make an educated guess about offending programs and try to force-scale them to 2x.
Compare this to the situation on Windows where people using the native toolkit is a rarity, with tens or hundreds of different UI toolkits in use and even a bunch of totally custom UI, much of which assumes a 90 DPI desktop. There's really not much MS can do about that except make an educated guess about offending programs and try to force-scale them to 2x.
> Is there a difference between dpi support for third party apps versus Microsoft apps?
Yes, there is.
The only app that I am using that seems to be able to handle high DPI and DPI changes during runtime is Firefox. Most of the third-party apps that I used (not that many of them) either do not support high DPI at all (and are scaled by the OS), or fully support high DPI mode (with changing DPI during life of the app). So all of them work in more or less predictable manner.
The worst are non-modern applications by Microsoft. They behave randomly, sometimes only parts of application get scaled. The worst offender is MS Office, each app of the suite has it's own high DPI related quirks (Outlooks gets blury, PowerPoint's UI becomes huge).
Also the task bar icons do not expect DPI to be changed during their lifetime :/
Yes, there is.
The only app that I am using that seems to be able to handle high DPI and DPI changes during runtime is Firefox. Most of the third-party apps that I used (not that many of them) either do not support high DPI at all (and are scaled by the OS), or fully support high DPI mode (with changing DPI during life of the app). So all of them work in more or less predictable manner.
The worst are non-modern applications by Microsoft. They behave randomly, sometimes only parts of application get scaled. The worst offender is MS Office, each app of the suite has it's own high DPI related quirks (Outlooks gets blury, PowerPoint's UI becomes huge).
Also the task bar icons do not expect DPI to be changed during their lifetime :/
This! Windows hidpi or mixed dpi on different monitors is garbage. But that's a side effect of all of the backward compatibility of win32, right? Modern apps ("metro apps") scale just fine because it's a newer framework.
Here's one huge reason: every single Windows version (well, at least the last 4-5 of them) have changed around the location of things. The control panel is completely different between some versions of Windows.
When I have an administrative task on Windows, it's like Find Waldo. Where did they hide that setting? The number of times I've had to Google to find out how to do something on Windows... significant.
On macOS, there is a single place I need to look and it's been the same since the beginning. Yes, there have been minor tweaks over the versions, but I never feel like I'm lost. The number of times I've had to Google to find out how to do something on macOS... almost never.
And I'm much newer to macOS than I am to Windows.
Here's a funny thing: Microsoft Office's settings are just like the System Preferences of macOS! In look and feel.
When I have an administrative task on Windows, it's like Find Waldo. Where did they hide that setting? The number of times I've had to Google to find out how to do something on Windows... significant.
On macOS, there is a single place I need to look and it's been the same since the beginning. Yes, there have been minor tweaks over the versions, but I never feel like I'm lost. The number of times I've had to Google to find out how to do something on macOS... almost never.
And I'm much newer to macOS than I am to Windows.
Here's a funny thing: Microsoft Office's settings are just like the System Preferences of macOS! In look and feel.
It's not that hard in Windows 10, left click the start button and just start typing the name of the thing you are looking for, or right click the start button and you have direct access to all the major admin tools
I haven't manually looked for a command in Windows since... Vista? XP? Whichever was the last release to not let you search from the start menu.
I had to take the A+ certification for a stupid work requirement (I'm a senior security consultant, how does that make any sense?) and even though I've been a Windows user since Windows 95 came out, it was really hard to answer questions like "what is the name of the Control Panel task that manages users?" They didn't like the answer of "hit the Windows key and type 'users'".
I had to take the A+ certification for a stupid work requirement (I'm a senior security consultant, how does that make any sense?) and even though I've been a Windows user since Windows 95 came out, it was really hard to answer questions like "what is the name of the Control Panel task that manages users?" They didn't like the answer of "hit the Windows key and type 'users'".
NTripleOne(1)
> The control panel is completely different between some versions of Windows.
This is a big issue I have had with recent versions (7 onward) of Windows. I found that earlier versions of Windows incorporated Control Panel changes but the Control Panels were intuitive enough where I very quickly learned how to locate what I needed. The current control panel seems so foreign to me as to be intimidating.
This is a big issue I have had with recent versions (7 onward) of Windows. I found that earlier versions of Windows incorporated Control Panel changes but the Control Panels were intuitive enough where I very quickly learned how to locate what I needed. The current control panel seems so foreign to me as to be intimidating.
Who even wants to dig around menus and control panel anymore? Give me PERFECT search capabilities, so I need only hit one key, and type in what I'm looking for.
All the old control panels and amin stuff is still present in Win10, isn't it? Also, you can do almost anything these days in powershell.
Near enough everything from the Win7 control panel still exists, yeah - a few things have been completely moved to the Settings app though.
yeah, it's odd that there is a new UWP Settings app, and the old control panel - but it isn't that difficult to find. I mean, since you're surfing YC I'm assuming you're tech savvy - is Windows that hard for you to use?
Yes, windows 8's UWP settings (I believe 10 is the same in this respect, correct me if I'm wrong) is hard to use.
Does it happen to you occasionally that you look up instructions on the internet about "how to do X"? It does to me, for example, "how to mark a network private". It used to be that you could open Control Panel along the browser window and work through it. Not anymore! Now, the setting up takes the entire screen. You have to use two screens if you want to do something that the Mac has supported flawlessly since 1987, and Windows only since 1990 (but no later than 2014).
When I point out to Windows users this example (and others) of how horrible and hostile Windows has become since Win8, I get answers that I can only describe as learned helplessness and stockholm syndrome.
Does it happen to you occasionally that you look up instructions on the internet about "how to do X"? It does to me, for example, "how to mark a network private". It used to be that you could open Control Panel along the browser window and work through it. Not anymore! Now, the setting up takes the entire screen. You have to use two screens if you want to do something that the Mac has supported flawlessly since 1987, and Windows only since 1990 (but no later than 2014).
When I point out to Windows users this example (and others) of how horrible and hostile Windows has become since Win8, I get answers that I can only describe as learned helplessness and stockholm syndrome.
"tech savvy" people dont like wasting their time on stupid tasks. we like using well-made products that dont play games with the user and dont create vendor lockin by making users memorize bullshit nuances about the UI. Bullshit nuances are antifeatures, they're dark-patterns.
You said it perfectly before I had a chance to answer.
The fact is, Apple did it right and Microsoft did it wrong.
The fact is, Apple did it right and Microsoft did it wrong.
I love Windows 10 and used it from preview, but like OSX better. WSL is like improved Cygwin for me (I know they aren't the same under the hood and WSL is way more powerful). Still not exactly as smooth or integrated as bash/zsh on OSX.
OS X has better multi monitor DPI handling, more dev tools written for it (brew blows chocolatey out of the park), and in general just feels smoother.
OS X has better multi monitor DPI handling, more dev tools written for it (brew blows chocolatey out of the park), and in general just feels smoother.
WSL is not nearly the same as actually using Linux. If it actually interacted with the rest of the system instead of just in it's little box it might provide some value. The way it stands you really have to search for everything. There are lot of tools for devs that just work on Linux/Unix that just don't work on Windows. I find Windows a pain (and am a C# developer professionally). I also like to game so of course Windows stays on my desktop at home, but my next laptop (MBP currently) will have Windows replaced with Linux for sure.
you can set symlinks up, but true not internally (yet), but it's coming in the next update. And which tools "simply do not work in windows"?
Many devs hate Windows for precisely defined reasons. But because we people are different, you may not be not bothered by their reasons and vice-versa. However, calling it "they simply hate" without taking their reasons into consideration is pure ignorance, that doesn't move the debate anywhere.
Btw, can Windows 10 use Kerberos auth from KDC that is not AD yet? Preferably without enrolling? Simply running ticket viewer, entering principal and password, getting ticket? And using it for accessing services (file sharing, for example) then? Just like macOS and Linux can?
Btw, can Windows 10 use Kerberos auth from KDC that is not AD yet? Preferably without enrolling? Simply running ticket viewer, entering principal and password, getting ticket? And using it for accessing services (file sharing, for example) then? Just like macOS and Linux can?
> Btw, can Windows 10 use Kerberos auth from KDC that is not AD yet? Preferably without enrolling? Simply running ticket viewer, entering principal and password, getting ticket? And using it for accessing services (file sharing, for example) then? Just like macOS and Linux can?
Depends on what answer you are looking for. You can technically join a Windows machine to any arbitrary kerberos domain, but since Windows has a very "unique" user/group model all it will do is let you access kerberized services.
You can also just install the MIT kerberos client, but any software will need to explicitly support it (Firefox does, at the very least).
Ultimately though, the best solution is to just set up an AD domain and a trust to the kerberos realm you want to use services on :/
Depends on what answer you are looking for. You can technically join a Windows machine to any arbitrary kerberos domain, but since Windows has a very "unique" user/group model all it will do is let you access kerberized services.
You can also just install the MIT kerberos client, but any software will need to explicitly support it (Firefox does, at the very least).
Ultimately though, the best solution is to just set up an AD domain and a trust to the kerberos realm you want to use services on :/
Thanks, that's what I found out until now. I'm looking for a solution without any enrollment at all, however.
Background: think of a group of freelancers, working together with one organization. The freelancers have each their own BYOD laptop and there are few servers, that provide services. Until now, each of these services had their own unique user database, so every user had to remember several passwords.
We want to change that and are currently experimenting with FreeIPA. In the lab, everything works as it should - with macOS and Linux. Even Windows machines, that are joined to a domain with the trust set up with FreeIPA domain work (that would be some of the servers). However, the standalone Windows machines are the problem. So far, only Firefox and Putty can use GSSAPI. Chrome uses SSPI, even PostgreSQL windows client supports only SSPI, and now I’m playing with the svn klient to figure out, whether it can use GSSAPI. For smb shares, Windows insist on NTLM (and on the Linux side, sssd doesn’t support NTLMSSP), so there I’m looking into plain LDAP backend for Samba. At least they could enter the password into the Explorer dialog and get to the files.
For webapps, it is actually quite simple - just use some IDP. Those who cannot obtain a tgt, will log-in using forms. It doesn’t really matter whether they put their password into web form or into kinit or ticket viewer. It’s the non-web services, that are the problem.
The other solution would be to let them RDP into terminal server and let them do everything there. This solution slightly complicates the work for the users, because they will have to use some locally installed apps anyway.
Background: think of a group of freelancers, working together with one organization. The freelancers have each their own BYOD laptop and there are few servers, that provide services. Until now, each of these services had their own unique user database, so every user had to remember several passwords.
We want to change that and are currently experimenting with FreeIPA. In the lab, everything works as it should - with macOS and Linux. Even Windows machines, that are joined to a domain with the trust set up with FreeIPA domain work (that would be some of the servers). However, the standalone Windows machines are the problem. So far, only Firefox and Putty can use GSSAPI. Chrome uses SSPI, even PostgreSQL windows client supports only SSPI, and now I’m playing with the svn klient to figure out, whether it can use GSSAPI. For smb shares, Windows insist on NTLM (and on the Linux side, sssd doesn’t support NTLMSSP), so there I’m looking into plain LDAP backend for Samba. At least they could enter the password into the Explorer dialog and get to the files.
For webapps, it is actually quite simple - just use some IDP. Those who cannot obtain a tgt, will log-in using forms. It doesn’t really matter whether they put their password into web form or into kinit or ticket viewer. It’s the non-web services, that are the problem.
The other solution would be to let them RDP into terminal server and let them do everything there. This solution slightly complicates the work for the users, because they will have to use some locally installed apps anyway.
Are you looking at a BYOD setup of some fashion? I hate AD as much as any good Linux admin, but I'm curious what the use-case for non-domain joined machines accessing kerberized services is.
Exactly, BYOD setup. As I hinted, single organization and several independent people working together with their private laptops, using several on-premises services and right now, way too many passwords.
Towards AD, I'm kind of ambivalent. However, it's all or nothing approach is not suitable right now. What I need now is just the Kerberos, and the willingness of the apps to use it.
Towards AD, I'm kind of ambivalent. However, it's all or nothing approach is not suitable right now. What I need now is just the Kerberos, and the willingness of the apps to use it.
I use Win10 as well, but I hate some parts: the command line (not being bash, even though you will say powershell is awesome, its not bash, and everyone knows bash). The filesystem which is not very compatible with Linux ones. Missing apt (even though there is chocolatey, its not apt).
But the main reason is that most devs use OSX so their projects build on OSX (and Linux)...
I love the graphical side of Windows, though.
But the main reason is that most devs use OSX so their projects build on OSX (and Linux)...
I love the graphical side of Windows, though.
> Most devs simply hate Windows...
I don't think so. Most devs on HN seem to hate Windows, but everywhere else they love it.
The startup scene seems to hate Windows, but most programmers aren't working for a startup either.
Everywhere I go on the east coast, programmers love Windows.
I don't think so. Most devs on HN seem to hate Windows, but everywhere else they love it.
The startup scene seems to hate Windows, but most programmers aren't working for a startup either.
Everywhere I go on the east coast, programmers love Windows.
How about a working iMessage? I've tried hackintoshing my PC gaming rig, but my machine is too old to support it, I guess. (I never got it self-booting.) I looked at the hassle involved, and thought it felt like Linux in the EARLY 90's.
I looked at the issues on that GitHub project: iMessage. Every place I see hackintoshing discussed, I notice that iMessage doesn't work. People effuse about how great hackintoshing is, but there are consistent gaps in the setup. Like Linux users, they gloss over these problems. (I'm guilty of this myself, and it's probably why I notice.) I use iMessage on my MBP a LOT. macOS without iMessage wouldn't really be macOS to me.
I looked at the issues on that GitHub project: iMessage. Every place I see hackintoshing discussed, I notice that iMessage doesn't work. People effuse about how great hackintoshing is, but there are consistent gaps in the setup. Like Linux users, they gloss over these problems. (I'm guilty of this myself, and it's probably why I notice.) I use iMessage on my MBP a LOT. macOS without iMessage wouldn't really be macOS to me.
I believe you can get iMessage to work but it's a huge pain. Some of the macOS services require a legit apple device serial number to function, so you have to spoof an actual mac serial number to get it to work
The Zenbook needed all kinds of hacks to work (the i7 model was lacking on interest as a Hackintosh so I was flying blind a lot). I never actually consistently got the App Store working, and my built in wifi wasn't supported without replacement, the power management was wonky (and the hack to disable the unsupported 940m never seemed to work). I could go on and on with small tweaks needed here and there and stuff that was broken.
I loved OSX because things were smooth, the Hackintosh got in the way of that.
Besides, ULV processors are all slow. Skylake i7 ULVs in >1000$ ultra books was on par with my 2009 400$ HP's i5 mobile processor. i5 ULV vs i7 ULV is barely an upgrade.
I loved OSX because things were smooth, the Hackintosh got in the way of that.
Besides, ULV processors are all slow. Skylake i7 ULVs in >1000$ ultra books was on par with my 2009 400$ HP's i5 mobile processor. i5 ULV vs i7 ULV is barely an upgrade.
> it was almost as much work as Desktop Linux
"Desktop Linux", (what distro/version?), tends to work out of the box with no problems on mainstream desktops, even with Pascal GPUs.
I feel like the "Linux doesn't work out of the box" thing was true 10 years ago, but today is just repeated by people who haven't tried it but want to feel that there still is something crappier than what they're doing.
"Desktop Linux", (what distro/version?), tends to work out of the box with no problems on mainstream desktops, even with Pascal GPUs.
I feel like the "Linux doesn't work out of the box" thing was true 10 years ago, but today is just repeated by people who haven't tried it but want to feel that there still is something crappier than what they're doing.
>"Desktop Linux", (what distro/version?), tends to work out of the box with no problems on mainstream desktops, even with Pascal GPUs.
You'd be surprised.
You'd be surprised.
Again, no specifics :-)
The main issue I've run into is having a high DPI 4k monitor as my primary display, and a 1920 x 1080 monitor as my secondary display.
In the past, I've have been happy to tinker a bit to make it work, but these days I'm busy working, so I want my display setup to just work out of the box. Ubuntu is close, but 16.10 applies the scale factor from the 4k display to the secondary display as well, so things don't look very good on the secondary screen.
It just works without fuss on Windows 10, so I tend to just run Win10, even though I prefer the look and feel of several different Linux desktop environments. The Win10 linux subsystem has been good enough so far than even ruby and rails development is painless - whereas before I used to run into some minor but annoying issues.
My Linux desktop experience is far from terrible - these days, I just fire up a Win10 or Linux VM and full-screen it on my secondary display and just use it for running a browser to look up documentation and other such things. In doing things that way, I'll end up with proper DPI scaling on both screens. But it adds enough friction to the process that I usually won't bother with it until I get sick of the Windows look and feel and want to look at something different for a few days.
I realize my use case is probably atypical, but it as least serves as an example of a non-seamless Linux desktop experience.
In the past, I've have been happy to tinker a bit to make it work, but these days I'm busy working, so I want my display setup to just work out of the box. Ubuntu is close, but 16.10 applies the scale factor from the 4k display to the secondary display as well, so things don't look very good on the secondary screen.
It just works without fuss on Windows 10, so I tend to just run Win10, even though I prefer the look and feel of several different Linux desktop environments. The Win10 linux subsystem has been good enough so far than even ruby and rails development is painless - whereas before I used to run into some minor but annoying issues.
My Linux desktop experience is far from terrible - these days, I just fire up a Win10 or Linux VM and full-screen it on my secondary display and just use it for running a browser to look up documentation and other such things. In doing things that way, I'll end up with proper DPI scaling on both screens. But it adds enough friction to the process that I usually won't bother with it until I get sick of the Windows look and feel and want to look at something different for a few days.
I realize my use case is probably atypical, but it as least serves as an example of a non-seamless Linux desktop experience.
I've heard fedora 25 does a good job of applying different scales to different monitors out of the box.
> 16.10 applies the scale factor from the 4k display to the secondary display as well
Though not surfaced in the UI, easy enough to fix with this with xrandr. This SO question solves a similar problem http://askubuntu.com/questions/393400/is-it-possible-to-have...
> 16.10 applies the scale factor from the 4k display to the secondary display as well
Though not surfaced in the UI, easy enough to fix with this with xrandr. This SO question solves a similar problem http://askubuntu.com/questions/393400/is-it-possible-to-have...
Not the above poster, but every time I mention problems I'm having with Linux to a Linux fan all I get is a mix of:
"Oh well yeah, that's a little broken but that's a 5 minute fix!" x 100;
"Yeah, that sucks but there next version of (Gnome/Wayland/switching distros/getting less problematic hardware) should fix that" x 50;
And "I'm not saying PEBKAC... but maybe PEBKAC".
So I don't bother anymore.
"Oh well yeah, that's a little broken but that's a 5 minute fix!" x 100;
"Yeah, that sucks but there next version of (Gnome/Wayland/switching distros/getting less problematic hardware) should fix that" x 50;
And "I'm not saying PEBKAC... but maybe PEBKAC".
So I don't bother anymore.
This is again very generic, but while this may be true to a certain extent, the view from the other side is that the expectations for Linux vs Windows are nowhere near the same.
Linux is for some reason expected to behave perfectly, while Windows routinely screws with audio, borks updates etc. and nobody calls it unusable on the desktop or similar, another thing - most of these kinds of posters just refuse to read or understand the Linux way of doing things and try to apply their Windows mentality to Linux and if it doesn't work the same way, complain.
But in general if you have a question that is not worded in the Linux sucks! sort of way you'll get tons of great help.
Linux is for some reason expected to behave perfectly, while Windows routinely screws with audio, borks updates etc. and nobody calls it unusable on the desktop or similar, another thing - most of these kinds of posters just refuse to read or understand the Linux way of doing things and try to apply their Windows mentality to Linux and if it doesn't work the same way, complain.
But in general if you have a question that is not worded in the Linux sucks! sort of way you'll get tons of great help.
>Linux is for some reason expected to behave perfectly, while Windows routinely screws with audio, borks updates etc. and nobody calls it unusable on the desktop or similar, another thing - most of these kinds of posters just refuse to read or understand the Linux way of doing things and try to apply their Windows mentality to Linux and if it doesn't work the same way, complain.
I mean... generalizing people who use Windows in such an unflattering light certainly doesn't help anyone (or thier views of the Linux community). When any user complains about Windows they usually get an "amen", but suddenly when a Windows user has a problem with Linux it's because "they're trying to apply their Windows mentality"? So when people complain about how cmd.exe sucks, should I tell them "Shed your Linux mentality and use the GUI" instead of pointing out Powershell and WSL?
Windows and Linux have their warts. I don't think anyone holds Linux to any unreasonable standard compared to Windows (I mean we're at a stage where people are still impressed when a stock Ubuntu install supports all their hardware because it wasn't that long ago that was something taken for granted).
I generally don't try to treat Linux as primarily a desktop OS because it doesn't do that as well (for me) as it does as an OS running in embedded settings and servers, and I generally think that's ok, it doesn't have to excel at everything.
I mean... generalizing people who use Windows in such an unflattering light certainly doesn't help anyone (or thier views of the Linux community). When any user complains about Windows they usually get an "amen", but suddenly when a Windows user has a problem with Linux it's because "they're trying to apply their Windows mentality"? So when people complain about how cmd.exe sucks, should I tell them "Shed your Linux mentality and use the GUI" instead of pointing out Powershell and WSL?
Windows and Linux have their warts. I don't think anyone holds Linux to any unreasonable standard compared to Windows (I mean we're at a stage where people are still impressed when a stock Ubuntu install supports all their hardware because it wasn't that long ago that was something taken for granted).
I generally don't try to treat Linux as primarily a desktop OS because it doesn't do that as well (for me) as it does as an OS running in embedded settings and servers, and I generally think that's ok, it doesn't have to excel at everything.
There's said to be quite some linux support for the notebook mentioned here.
there is, the XPS has the best Linux support on a high end laptop, maybe ever. But don't confuse driver support for overall experience. Linux DEs, to me, are a complete waste of my time. I need my machine to work in an instant, EVERY TIME I turn it on. I would rather spend my time developing an app or website for a client than dorking around with a Linux DE just to get it work the way I want. That's why it's simply Windows or macOS for me, and these days Apple's shenanigans have me comfy in Windows 10. The Windows bias here on this site is baffling. It's a great OS, by far the most stable OS I have ever used.
That's not my experience at all. I use the vanilla Ubuntu 16.04/Unity, and it Just Works. Never had to worry about drivers or setting up anything, it just works out of the box.
I'm sure it is possible to start fiddling around and configure stuff if you need/want to, but so far the XPS 13 (well, Precison 5510 in my case but it is the same line of product) with Ubuntu works as I expect it to
I'm sure it is possible to start fiddling around and configure stuff if you need/want to, but so far the XPS 13 (well, Precison 5510 in my case but it is the same line of product) with Ubuntu works as I expect it to
I use ZenBook UX303 with Ubuntu 16.04/Unity and I have same experience. Except for setting up the dedicated nVidia, it Just Works.
Setting up CUDA along with Bumblebee is real pain though. In the beginning sometimes the lightdm just crash on start, but it has been stable after the first week.
Setting up CUDA along with Bumblebee is real pain though. In the beginning sometimes the lightdm just crash on start, but it has been stable after the first week.
I need my machine to work in an instant, EVERY TIME I turn it on.
Strangely, this is exactly my experience of running Linux on my Thinkpad. It just works: Every time. No fuss, no messing about with drivers, no dorking about with DEs. Open it up, get down to work.
Admittedly, when I worked full time with a Mac Pro as my desktop, OSX was perfectly OK. I honestly can’t say that I felt it was any better than my Linux experience on a day to day basis though.
Strangely, this is exactly my experience of running Linux on my Thinkpad. It just works: Every time. No fuss, no messing about with drivers, no dorking about with DEs. Open it up, get down to work.
Admittedly, when I worked full time with a Mac Pro as my desktop, OSX was perfectly OK. I honestly can’t say that I felt it was any better than my Linux experience on a day to day basis though.
Thinkpads do have outstanding Linux (driver) support out of the box, indeed. But again, my issue isn't with driver support, it's with Linux desktop itself.
Honestly, my Linux DE experience has been just fine too: Everything just works, it gets out of my way & lets me get to an editor to write code or fire up a web browser & has a ton of productivity apps a mouse click away if I need them.
I just don’t spend any time fiddling with Gnome; sure, it’s a bit opinionated about how it wants you to work with it, but so was macOS. I don’t spend any mental cycles worrying about the DE on either macOS or Gnome & that’s exactly the way it should be.
I’ll freely admit that the possibility of going down the rabbit hole of fiddling with your DE until you’ve got it just so is always there under Linux, whilst you have to to be a lot more committed to customisation on macOS if you want to mess around with that kind of stuff. But I decided long ago that so long as the DE got out of my way & let me get on with doing stuff then I wasn’t going to care about it.
It’s possible that I’m missing out on some amazing experience that would transform my computing life, but having tried both I’m really just not seeing it personally.
I just don’t spend any time fiddling with Gnome; sure, it’s a bit opinionated about how it wants you to work with it, but so was macOS. I don’t spend any mental cycles worrying about the DE on either macOS or Gnome & that’s exactly the way it should be.
I’ll freely admit that the possibility of going down the rabbit hole of fiddling with your DE until you’ve got it just so is always there under Linux, whilst you have to to be a lot more committed to customisation on macOS if you want to mess around with that kind of stuff. But I decided long ago that so long as the DE got out of my way & let me get on with doing stuff then I wasn’t going to care about it.
It’s possible that I’m missing out on some amazing experience that would transform my computing life, but having tried both I’m really just not seeing it personally.
There isn't a "Linux desktop" as such, it would be helpful if you specified a DE and some specific issues you had.
Specifically what issues do you have?
>there is, the XPS has the best Linux support on a high end laptop, maybe ever.
That's hyperbole if I've ever seen it. You can look at how many problems plagued Fedora on the XPS13 as recently as a year ago:
https://major.io/2015/02/03/linux-support-dell-xps-13-9343-2...
The tl;dr version is that the guy spent so long trying to get it working properly that he ditched the laptop for a Thinkpad. And FWIW, Fedora usually has better support for recent hardware than other distros due to the up-to-date kernel.
From what I gather, Thinkpads are the crown jewel of Linux-supported laptops. This is more of a dogfooding thing than anything else: kernel developers, Redhat employees, and other Linux users tend to use Thinkpads, which means they then spend more time getting support for Thinkpads into the kernel.
That's hyperbole if I've ever seen it. You can look at how many problems plagued Fedora on the XPS13 as recently as a year ago:
https://major.io/2015/02/03/linux-support-dell-xps-13-9343-2...
The tl;dr version is that the guy spent so long trying to get it working properly that he ditched the laptop for a Thinkpad. And FWIW, Fedora usually has better support for recent hardware than other distros due to the up-to-date kernel.
From what I gather, Thinkpads are the crown jewel of Linux-supported laptops. This is more of a dogfooding thing than anything else: kernel developers, Redhat employees, and other Linux users tend to use Thinkpads, which means they then spend more time getting support for Thinkpads into the kernel.
That was 2 years ago actually.
The community sorted out most of the issues, so about 6 months later the experience was actually quite good.
Dell released the Linux version of the laptop too early, I guess they wanted to get some traction but it backfired.
The community sorted out most of the issues, so about 6 months later the experience was actually quite good.
Dell released the Linux version of the laptop too early, I guess they wanted to get some traction but it backfired.
>6 months later
Who thinks this is acceptable though?
Any specifics?
I find GNOME 3.22 to be at least as, if not more usable than macOS.
I find GNOME 3.22 to be at least as, if not more usable than macOS.
> Linux DEs, to me, are a complete waste of my time.
Would you like to describe your experience? My use of the DE is mostly for staring browsers/terminals and jumping workspaces (not as smooth as a Mac w/ trackpad).
> It's a great OS, by far the most stable OS I have ever used.
Windows 10 is reasonable, but I wouldn't say it's the most stable OS I've ever used and updates are usually a pain, specially compared to Debian/Ubuntu or Fedora.
Would you like to describe your experience? My use of the DE is mostly for staring browsers/terminals and jumping workspaces (not as smooth as a Mac w/ trackpad).
> It's a great OS, by far the most stable OS I have ever used.
Windows 10 is reasonable, but I wouldn't say it's the most stable OS I've ever used and updates are usually a pain, specially compared to Debian/Ubuntu or Fedora.
Have you tried elementary OS? It has a similar design philosophy to Apple. https://elementary.io
I found eOS to be the WORST distro I have tried in years. It's more limited than macOS, and only half as stable. It only gets attention because it tries to hard to be the most aesthetically pleasing Linux distro ever, I applaud their efforts but it's such a beta product. No thanks.
HiDPI support across the Windows ecosystem is still horrible.
In fairness it's handled quite well by Windows I feel, a lot of third party apps let it down.
It's a bigger challenge on Windows than OSX. On OSX devs only have to target a small number of High DPI resolutions.
It's a bigger challenge on Windows than OSX. On OSX devs only have to target a small number of High DPI resolutions.
But the challenge has nothing to do with the resolution, it's entirely in the UI scaling, which is separate from resolution.
Macs cover a pretty wide range of DPIs, and windows can be any size. I'm not sure what you mean.
I noticed the DELL XPS13 is a touch screen laptop. As a person who generally obsesses about having no finger marks on my computer screen (I feel differently about my iPad), I find it interesting that people would want to do this. Any other views?
Well I was in two minds when I ordered it.
Since I wanted the i7 and 3200x1800 screen that only came with a touch screen.
Initially I worried about how clean the screen was. But in the end using the laptop with a touch screen is really convenient.
Pause a video by tapping on the screen.
Quit an application by tapping the X.
Scrolling through web pages.
Also I often want to make a quick recording with voice recorder, tapping the record and stop button is really convenient.
Fingerprints show up in sunlight but in normal usage it isn't as visible, but I do keep a micro fibre cloth to wipe the screen every once in a while.
I'd recommend giving it a go with Windows 10 for a while, it'll grow on you, you'll just have to get over the initial desire to keep the screen pristine.
Initially I worried about how clean the screen was. But in the end using the laptop with a touch screen is really convenient.
Pause a video by tapping on the screen.
Quit an application by tapping the X.
Scrolling through web pages.
Also I often want to make a quick recording with voice recorder, tapping the record and stop button is really convenient.
Fingerprints show up in sunlight but in normal usage it isn't as visible, but I do keep a micro fibre cloth to wipe the screen every once in a while.
I'd recommend giving it a go with Windows 10 for a while, it'll grow on you, you'll just have to get over the initial desire to keep the screen pristine.
I was sure I would never use it but it is quite amazing how fast my behaviour changed. After couple of days I was scrolling down webpages with my finger instead. Now, It feels so old and unnatural to have laptop without touch screen.
You can turn touch off in the BIOS.
Some people just don't obsess over minor details like finger marks. FWIW my flat is generally quite untidy.
I was skeptical too but you really get used to it, especially when reading and scrolling, its very nice. Its not bad cleaning the screen for 1 minute ever few days.
> As a person who generally obsesses about having no finger marks on my computer screen
For me it's about screen glare. I absolutely refuse to buy a machine with a non-matte screen.
For me it's about screen glare. I absolutely refuse to buy a machine with a non-matte screen.
XPS 13 has matte screen option.
http://www.mobilegeeks.com/dell-xps-13-matte-vs-glossy/
http://www.mobilegeeks.com/dell-xps-13-matte-vs-glossy/
It is not touch screen unless you want it to be. The FHD version has a non-reflective matte screen that is not touch enabled. It also adds ~1-2 hours to the battery life...
How hard would it be to convert it to other more or less related laptop models?
Would it make sense to have a shared component that applies on multiple models, and a smaller part to be model-specific?
Would it make sense to have a shared component that applies on multiple models, and a smaller part to be model-specific?
Nice work!
Almost tempted to try it on my XPS 15!
Almost tempted to try it on my XPS 15!
DMCA shutdown of this repo in 3... 2... 1...
Apple has actually been pretty tolerant of the Hackintosh community so long as they don't share pirated copies of macOS or try to profit from it. I doubt they will have any issue with this project (or the dozens of other projects like it)
I wonder if Apple could sell a developers edition of MacOS that supported a vetted list of non-Apple hardware? Even if that was a short list and it was $999 a seat, I'm thinking people would pay the price to stay with their preferred OS and run the latest hardware.
> I wonder if Apple could sell a developers edition of MacOS that supported a vetted list of non-Apple hardware? Even if that was a short list and it was $999 a seat, I'm thinking people would pay the price to stay with their preferred OS and run the latest hardware.
How that situation would be different from now? It's not like Apple actively trying to defend itself from hackintoshes, they just don't care at all, so you can use hackintosh if you want. Apple supports selected list of hardware which is present in their products and it's not something proprietary, so you can buy those parts and build computer.
For $999 I bet most people would just torrent it. For $99 there wouldn't be enough purchases to justify a lot of additional work, especially support, because selling product presumes that you're going to help customers with their issues.
What Apple probably would do is just to release their OS X free without legal restrictions and with some working installer, loader, etc. It's not a lot of work and you're not getting support if you're not buying their hardware. Then hardware manufacturers would build drivers, at least for some of their hardware. Now hackintosh doesn't exist for manufacturers, because it's not completely legal and community around hackintosh isn't good enough to write their own drivers.
How that situation would be different from now? It's not like Apple actively trying to defend itself from hackintoshes, they just don't care at all, so you can use hackintosh if you want. Apple supports selected list of hardware which is present in their products and it's not something proprietary, so you can buy those parts and build computer.
For $999 I bet most people would just torrent it. For $99 there wouldn't be enough purchases to justify a lot of additional work, especially support, because selling product presumes that you're going to help customers with their issues.
What Apple probably would do is just to release their OS X free without legal restrictions and with some working installer, loader, etc. It's not a lot of work and you're not getting support if you're not buying their hardware. Then hardware manufacturers would build drivers, at least for some of their hardware. Now hackintosh doesn't exist for manufacturers, because it's not completely legal and community around hackintosh isn't good enough to write their own drivers.
>How that situation would be different from now?
There's no non-apple branded hardware certified by another manufacturer to run MacOS? That's the difference. You better believe Dell would sell XPS devices targetted to that market if they could.
>For $999 I bet most people would just torrent it. For $99 there wouldn't be enough purchases to justify a lot of additional work, especially support
No doubt people would torrent it - they always do... they do it now! But for $999 or somewhere above your $99 strawman there's a place for Apple to support non-apple hardware and deal with support issues. That's the point of it being so expensive.
>What Apple probably would do is just to release their OS X free without legal restrictions and with some working installer, loader, etc. It's not a lot of work and you're not getting support if you're not buying their hardware.
Of the two I think selling their OS for use on non-apple hardware is more likely than open sourcing. In my humble opinion I don't see them giving away their OS. Honestly I don't ever see them selling their OS for non-apple hardware either but at some hypothetical price at least they'd be opening up a new revenue channel. That wouldn't happen with an open source give away.
There's no non-apple branded hardware certified by another manufacturer to run MacOS? That's the difference. You better believe Dell would sell XPS devices targetted to that market if they could.
>For $999 I bet most people would just torrent it. For $99 there wouldn't be enough purchases to justify a lot of additional work, especially support
No doubt people would torrent it - they always do... they do it now! But for $999 or somewhere above your $99 strawman there's a place for Apple to support non-apple hardware and deal with support issues. That's the point of it being so expensive.
>What Apple probably would do is just to release their OS X free without legal restrictions and with some working installer, loader, etc. It's not a lot of work and you're not getting support if you're not buying their hardware.
Of the two I think selling their OS for use on non-apple hardware is more likely than open sourcing. In my humble opinion I don't see them giving away their OS. Honestly I don't ever see them selling their OS for non-apple hardware either but at some hypothetical price at least they'd be opening up a new revenue channel. That wouldn't happen with an open source give away.
>It's not like Apple actively trying to defend itself from hackintoshes
Really? Going off sample size of 1 / gut feeling, OSX is the only OS that was seemed actively hostile at every step for emulation / dual boot.
Win XP/Win 7/several flavors of Linux were all a relative walk in the park.
Really? Going off sample size of 1 / gut feeling, OSX is the only OS that was seemed actively hostile at every step for emulation / dual boot.
Win XP/Win 7/several flavors of Linux were all a relative walk in the park.
They're not suing people unless they try and sell things.
Also they aren't sending Cease and Desist or DMCA notices.
Softwarewise it's only designed to run on Mac hardware and it is in breach of the licence to run a hackingtosh
Also they aren't sending Cease and Desist or DMCA notices.
Softwarewise it's only designed to run on Mac hardware and it is in breach of the licence to run a hackingtosh
They certainly could, but Apple makes most of the money based on hardware. They'd probably shoot themselves in the foot.
Yeah obviously they do make huge money on the hardware, but the question remains: is there some price point where they'd like MacOS run on non-apple hardware?
No, the supply and demand curves don't overlap.
haven't Apple made quite clear with the new MBP they don't really care about the developer market? The scale market is in upselling to "power users"
Hey it's been a really fun three months of this meme, but I think it's time to let it go. The whole "MBPs aren't for professionals" and "Apple doesn't care about developers" is getting more stale than Apple's hardware lineup.
Use their computers or don't, I don't care. But it's time to let this one go.
Use their computers or don't, I don't care. But it's time to let this one go.
You can call it MacOS for researchers if that makes it more palatable. Really it's just one of those "wouldn't it be nice" exercises because there's IMHO pent-up demand for running on MacOS on more powerful hardware than Apple make available.
It's really astounding how well OS X works on notebooks.
My brother has an old Thinkpad X220 (with IPS panel) which he converted into a Hackintosh. The only thing he needed to do is to replace the internal wifi module with another one (cost roughly $8). This was done in 15 minutes as the old Thinkpads are highly serviceable.
He's pretty happy with the machine as a MBA replacement. (He's waiting for an update MBA model. That optimist.)
I myself converted my gaming rig into a hackintosh some time ago. Now I got a beefy "Mac Pro" for a fraction of the original's price. Also I can upgrade and fix it myself.
When my current 2013 MBP breaks I think I'm going to buy the small MacBook (the plain one) and do my heavy computation work on the Hackintosh.
My brother has an old Thinkpad X220 (with IPS panel) which he converted into a Hackintosh. The only thing he needed to do is to replace the internal wifi module with another one (cost roughly $8). This was done in 15 minutes as the old Thinkpads are highly serviceable.
He's pretty happy with the machine as a MBA replacement. (He's waiting for an update MBA model. That optimist.)
I myself converted my gaming rig into a hackintosh some time ago. Now I got a beefy "Mac Pro" for a fraction of the original's price. Also I can upgrade and fix it myself.
When my current 2013 MBP breaks I think I'm going to buy the small MacBook (the plain one) and do my heavy computation work on the Hackintosh.
If you buy the MacBook I recommend you try the keyboard first. I find it absolutely awful to type on. The specs are also pretty poor. I'd opt for a Macbook Air perhaps?
Macbook Air vs. Dell XPS 13 Infinity, first step, get a job.
Ugh why would you ruin a perfectly fine GNU/Linux machine with Mac OS X?! ;-)
From big things, like being able to run photoshop on a unix machine, to small things, like the command key not competing with control, beautiful text rendering, OS X is almost perfect, and it's been for so many year.
Why oh why can't they freaking update the damn hardware.
This is one of those situations where Apple secretive culture really hurts the entire industry.
A simple statement like, we screwed the Mac Pro redesign, but a new one is coming in June, we had manufacturing problems, or we are not interested in this market anymore, would be a lot better than simply selling a 3 year old computer for the same price.
That doesn't do anyone any good
Why oh why can't they freaking update the damn hardware.
This is one of those situations where Apple secretive culture really hurts the entire industry.
A simple statement like, we screwed the Mac Pro redesign, but a new one is coming in June, we had manufacturing problems, or we are not interested in this market anymore, would be a lot better than simply selling a 3 year old computer for the same price.
That doesn't do anyone any good
Be very careful with calling any software more than a few hundred lines "almost perfect".
The case here is that you have gotten used to the workarounds of macOS, because I'm pretty certain that most people that are not fanboys will agree that all operating systems have a lot of really ugly parts and it's just a matter of choosing the one that has the least downsides for your use case. Operating systems are way too big to be able to be even close to perfection.
The case here is that you have gotten used to the workarounds of macOS, because I'm pretty certain that most people that are not fanboys will agree that all operating systems have a lot of really ugly parts and it's just a matter of choosing the one that has the least downsides for your use case. Operating systems are way too big to be able to be even close to perfection.