After 61 Years, Detroit Gets a Streetcar Once More(npr.org)
npr.org
After 61 Years, Detroit Gets a Streetcar Once More
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/12/528190480/after-61-years-detroit-gets-a-streetcar-once-more
51 comments
Detroit had one of the most successful street car lines of any city in the nation. My father took me to ride on it as a young boy the last week that it was running.
People polled were 3 to 1 against it closing. My father was called a crackpot for believing that General Motors was behind the closing and it took fifty years but he was essentially proven correct.
The original plan was for the QLine to go out to the edge of the suburbs where it would end at the former State Fairgrounds where Magic Johnson and partners were going to build a shopping center along with apartments and condos.
While it would be much more successful if it could connect with the suburbs that doesn't mean it won't be a success. Believe it or not rents in the downtown area have doubled or tripled in the past eight years pricing some of my engineer friends out.
The QLine is going to drive development of apartments out Woodward where prices are much lower. The new home for the Red Wings and the Pistons is in Midtown where a large entertainment district is planned along with apartments, easy access to the QLine to go downtown will fill them.
Hopefully eventually the city will convince the feds and the state to extend the QLine out to at least eight mile. The city also imho badly needs a second line running from the airport to the downtown hotels.
People polled were 3 to 1 against it closing. My father was called a crackpot for believing that General Motors was behind the closing and it took fifty years but he was essentially proven correct.
The original plan was for the QLine to go out to the edge of the suburbs where it would end at the former State Fairgrounds where Magic Johnson and partners were going to build a shopping center along with apartments and condos.
While it would be much more successful if it could connect with the suburbs that doesn't mean it won't be a success. Believe it or not rents in the downtown area have doubled or tripled in the past eight years pricing some of my engineer friends out.
The QLine is going to drive development of apartments out Woodward where prices are much lower. The new home for the Red Wings and the Pistons is in Midtown where a large entertainment district is planned along with apartments, easy access to the QLine to go downtown will fill them.
Hopefully eventually the city will convince the feds and the state to extend the QLine out to at least eight mile. The city also imho badly needs a second line running from the airport to the downtown hotels.
Disclaimer up front: I work for GM.
GM was definitely involved in shutting down streetcars[W], but it's not entirely correct to say that GM was the cause of shutting down streetcars.
In addition to whatever GM did, look at the expansion of cities in this time period (1920s to 1950s). Paved streets could be added much more quickly than streetcar lines[0]. The automobile was there to use them by this time. Buses can also use paved streets.
Paved streets have a much larger network effect than streetcar lines due to the time and cost to add the streetcar rails. (Think switched network vs old AT&T system)
Faced with the growth of paved streets and the cost of operating parallel transit systems (bus and streetcar lines), many operators stopped operating streetcars - you can replace streetcars with buses, but you can't replace buses with streetcars.
---
[0] There's a parallel debate to be had here about density, but at the time it was much easier and cost effective[1] to grow the suburbs than the city center. A huge amount of american purchasing power was unlocked because people could afford to buy their own reasonably priced homes in the suburbs[1].
1. Again, plenty of room for debate on this.
[W] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
GM was definitely involved in shutting down streetcars[W], but it's not entirely correct to say that GM was the cause of shutting down streetcars.
In addition to whatever GM did, look at the expansion of cities in this time period (1920s to 1950s). Paved streets could be added much more quickly than streetcar lines[0]. The automobile was there to use them by this time. Buses can also use paved streets.
Paved streets have a much larger network effect than streetcar lines due to the time and cost to add the streetcar rails. (Think switched network vs old AT&T system)
Faced with the growth of paved streets and the cost of operating parallel transit systems (bus and streetcar lines), many operators stopped operating streetcars - you can replace streetcars with buses, but you can't replace buses with streetcars.
---
[0] There's a parallel debate to be had here about density, but at the time it was much easier and cost effective[1] to grow the suburbs than the city center. A huge amount of american purchasing power was unlocked because people could afford to buy their own reasonably priced homes in the suburbs[1].
1. Again, plenty of room for debate on this.
[W] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
> Paved streets could be added much more quickly than streetcar lines
Streetcars tracks can be put on the ... street. The hint is in the name, kind of. :) . They're also much lighter than railroad or metro tracks. You can have level crossings and tight corners.
I don't see them as especially hard to build. Cars probably require a lot more space, when you add all the multiple lanes, intersections, overpasses etc, when you take into account their low density.
So I wouldn't see it as obviously going either way.
Streetcars tracks can be put on the ... street. The hint is in the name, kind of. :) . They're also much lighter than railroad or metro tracks. You can have level crossings and tight corners.
I don't see them as especially hard to build. Cars probably require a lot more space, when you add all the multiple lanes, intersections, overpasses etc, when you take into account their low density.
So I wouldn't see it as obviously going either way.
The problem is not street cars vs busses it's busses vs cars. If you let cars onto the same lanes as busses then they become worse than cars. Effectively you can have a high bandwidth street level public transit or congestion because cars don't scale at street level.
The core problem is a single lane of dedicated public transit can move more than 10x as many people as a single lane of roads. In minimal traffic areas you can mix busses and cars, but as soon as roads reach there minimal limits near a city you need to segregate traffic.
PS: Cars do with in low density areas and Extreme levels of congestion pricing are one way around this. If it costs 50$ / day to park in the city you get less traffic, but passing such regulations are incredibly difficult.
The core problem is a single lane of dedicated public transit can move more than 10x as many people as a single lane of roads. In minimal traffic areas you can mix busses and cars, but as soon as roads reach there minimal limits near a city you need to segregate traffic.
PS: Cars do with in low density areas and Extreme levels of congestion pricing are one way around this. If it costs 50$ / day to park in the city you get less traffic, but passing such regulations are incredibly difficult.
It's a fact that GM set up a shadow corporation to buy up a lot of cities streetcar lines with the stated intention of selling more automobiles.
Apologists will say the street cars were doomed both by cars and the popularity of buses. In fact a CBS report stated exactly that.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-r...
Detroit's street car line however was profitable and wildly popular with the city's citizens. Less than two years later with its new secret owner it was reporting losses and was shut down.
Why would GM hide the fact it was buying the street car lines with a shadow corporation. Why would GM deny that it was the real owner of National City Corporation for over fifty years? That Wikipedia article reads like it was written by the GM publicity department. Why after all these years doesn't the company simply fess up that they did something wrong?
Apologists will say the street cars were doomed both by cars and the popularity of buses. In fact a CBS report stated exactly that.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-r...
Detroit's street car line however was profitable and wildly popular with the city's citizens. Less than two years later with its new secret owner it was reporting losses and was shut down.
Why would GM hide the fact it was buying the street car lines with a shadow corporation. Why would GM deny that it was the real owner of National City Corporation for over fifty years? That Wikipedia article reads like it was written by the GM publicity department. Why after all these years doesn't the company simply fess up that they did something wrong?
> Detroit is a city which was designed from the ground up to discourage public transport
This is simply not true. See [1][2][3][4][5] for the evolution of the transit system, from horse-drawn streetcars onward; notice that in the beginning the city's area was much smaller, but as annexations followed, so did transit.
Detroit's (current) transit woes are ultimately not that different from those of other American cities: transit needs to go where people work and live, and as both of those have become more distributed, fewer areas are suitable. It's really no surprise that this new development is along the highest-density core; it's also undeniable that this is the area that's experiencing a renaissance and an influx of investment. I'd say that these attributes are inter-related, in that they mutually enable each other.
[1] http://detroittransithistory.info/TheEarlyYears.html [2] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1900.html [3] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1922.html [4] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1932.html [5] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1951.html
This is simply not true. See [1][2][3][4][5] for the evolution of the transit system, from horse-drawn streetcars onward; notice that in the beginning the city's area was much smaller, but as annexations followed, so did transit.
Detroit's (current) transit woes are ultimately not that different from those of other American cities: transit needs to go where people work and live, and as both of those have become more distributed, fewer areas are suitable. It's really no surprise that this new development is along the highest-density core; it's also undeniable that this is the area that's experiencing a renaissance and an influx of investment. I'd say that these attributes are inter-related, in that they mutually enable each other.
[1] http://detroittransithistory.info/TheEarlyYears.html [2] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1900.html [3] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1922.html [4] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1932.html [5] https://www.chicagorailfan.com/dsrt1951.html
> At the end of the day Detroit is a city which was designed from the ground up to discourage public transport.
As another person from Detroit, this isn't necessarily true. It's just how Detroit developed after the 1960's riot.
The city is based on a wheel and spoke design as opposed to a grid. Detroit was meant to have the downtown area be the commercial and high price residential metropolitan center, with Woodward being the main thoroughfare along which development would spread out. As we both know, many of the high rent areas of the city are on the extreme periphery. (Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, etc.) and there is little development on Woodward until you get outside of the city into Ferndale (which starts at the famed 8 Mile Rd) Also, a disproportionate amount of the commerce like big box retailers, movie theaters, shopping malls. is in the outlying suburbs.
So the city became inverted, in almost the opposite way the designers intended. But your main point is right, public transportation won't work in the city because of the distribution of population, placement of freeways, etc. Thanks Big Three!
Offtopic: Even though Detroit used to be a big city, it feels like a mining town in Appalachia in a way with three instead of one dominant companies, with its fortunes and failures tethered to the boom and bust of the US automotive industry.
As another person from Detroit, this isn't necessarily true. It's just how Detroit developed after the 1960's riot.
The city is based on a wheel and spoke design as opposed to a grid. Detroit was meant to have the downtown area be the commercial and high price residential metropolitan center, with Woodward being the main thoroughfare along which development would spread out. As we both know, many of the high rent areas of the city are on the extreme periphery. (Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, etc.) and there is little development on Woodward until you get outside of the city into Ferndale (which starts at the famed 8 Mile Rd) Also, a disproportionate amount of the commerce like big box retailers, movie theaters, shopping malls. is in the outlying suburbs.
So the city became inverted, in almost the opposite way the designers intended. But your main point is right, public transportation won't work in the city because of the distribution of population, placement of freeways, etc. Thanks Big Three!
Offtopic: Even though Detroit used to be a big city, it feels like a mining town in Appalachia in a way with three instead of one dominant companies, with its fortunes and failures tethered to the boom and bust of the US automotive industry.
The same is happening in Milwaukee. [1]
...and I'm not sure why they're doing stuff like this instead of aiding the ailing north side? We already have buses and could pump money into something much more important. We have much bigger problems than transportation of tourists, shoppers, and whoever is going to spend money at some trendy restaurant.
It seems to me that the people spending time to allocate money to this sort of stuff are out of touch on what they should be allocating money towards. But hey, I'm just a lowly citizen with no experience in local politics.
[1] http://www.themilwaukeestreetcar.com/
...and I'm not sure why they're doing stuff like this instead of aiding the ailing north side? We already have buses and could pump money into something much more important. We have much bigger problems than transportation of tourists, shoppers, and whoever is going to spend money at some trendy restaurant.
It seems to me that the people spending time to allocate money to this sort of stuff are out of touch on what they should be allocating money towards. But hey, I'm just a lowly citizen with no experience in local politics.
[1] http://www.themilwaukeestreetcar.com/
> We have much bigger problems than transportation of tourists, shoppers, and whoever is going to spend money at some trendy restaurant.
If the trendy restaurant people hop on first people from all walks of life will want to follow. But if you start with the needy that will stay your brand forever. Most bus systems are locked in that trap.
If the trendy restaurant people hop on first people from all walks of life will want to follow. But if you start with the needy that will stay your brand forever. Most bus systems are locked in that trap.
I know nothing about Milwaukee (some folks would say "you didn't have to add "about Milwaukee"), but there is a tendency for car-owning Americans to eschew buses even in places, like Boston where I live, because buses are "for poor people". It's a messaging problem.
I think part of the issue is that in areas where there's not super abundant public transit that the majority of the population uses instead of cars, the likelihood of having a negative encounter with the type of people that are so unpleasant that you'd normally do anything possible to avoid them goes up significantly. My personal anecdote: when I lived in DC I never had any problems with the Metro buses or trains even in the poorer areas. When I lived in a coastal county in the panhandle of Florida I would sometimes take a bus on one of the very few lines that existed, serviced exclusively by very small buses and only a few times a day. During one of my trips I had to step in to stop this older man in his late 30's from physically harassing underage girls which led to police involvement. Turns out that he had been a problem for the bus line for a while but they couldn't ban him from the system because he was threatening to involve some civil liberties group in a discrimination case. I stopped taking the bus after that.
Yes this is unfortunately a problem everywhere, and I've seen this situation sometimes in Austin, Texas. In addition to untoward incidents like you mention, there are often homeless people taking the bus in the summers, I beleive simply to get a respite from the heat in the air conditioned buses. And while this might sound incredibly elitist, their stench is so bad I would frequently have to try for another bus.
Eh. People in NYC are willing to ride on subways with poor people.
For me it's more a matter of never living in a city where buses are both
(1) reliable -- the time the schedule says the bus is arriving, is when it arrives, and
(2) frequent enough that I don't have to plan my day around the bus schedule.
Maybe a place exists where both are true, but I've never seen it.
For me it's more a matter of never living in a city where buses are both
(1) reliable -- the time the schedule says the bus is arriving, is when it arrives, and
(2) frequent enough that I don't have to plan my day around the bus schedule.
Maybe a place exists where both are true, but I've never seen it.
I think trains/subways aren't as much of a concern for most people. On a bus, it's not uncommon to end up with a stinky or fairly creepy person stuck next to you with nothing you can do. Trains make it easier to get up and walk away, even moving to another car if you want to.
In New York City, it is illegal to move between subway cars, by using the end doors.
I haven't spent much time in NYC but I had never seen people go through the doors as passengers until then. It seemed to be frequent/common too. I've since seen this once in another city and it was pretty clear that it was out-of-the-ordinary when it happened.
Here in Japan it's perfectly alright, so it varies from place to place. I know the one time I went to New York I saw a guy passing through into other cars, but he didn't seem to be the type to care about the law.
It's not entirely a messaging problem; long bus trips are a great way to catch diseases from poor people who are traveling sick.
Projects like this are test cases for the viability of these projects. It's probably a good idea to build where the demand is to show that people will actually catch these things then move on to areas where demand is not a certainty.
Your argument is hurt a lot by that statement that it will never cover it's cost. It's not exactly clear what you mean, but in America, transit fares do not cover operating expenses.
I spent a week in Berlin recently, and it shows how a comprehensive mass transit system ought to work. There are subways, trains, streetcars, and buses all linked together. It's a marvelous system. You can get anywhere in the metropolitan area quickly. There's no need to have a car at all.
I wasn't that impressed with Berlins transportation, Prague on the other hand has one of the most enchanting public transport systems (as is the whole city).
Adding to that, it's completely marvelous to cycle in here. Even when riding amongst cars it always feels like you are just one of the vehicles and others respect your position in the traffic.
And there are almost no hills...
And there are almost no hills...
Seattle keeps trying to turn itself into a bikeable city, but the hills make it a trial for anyone not training for the Tour de France.
To further make the point, in Europe, people bicycle in street clothes. In Seattle, it's hard to find a biker who isn't wearing a Tour de France racing outfit.
To further make the point, in Europe, people bicycle in street clothes. In Seattle, it's hard to find a biker who isn't wearing a Tour de France racing outfit.
Seems like that in every US city. Biking is almost a lifestyle with special clothes and gear.
[deleted]
Had to laugh when I saw the overhead wires in the pic of the streetcar.
It you click on the "related stories" link titled "In D.C. And China, Two Approaches To A Streetcar Unconstrained By Wires", you can read about Guangzhou's wireless tram: "You can see that as the train enters the station, it just lightly touches those contact strips, and in 20 seconds it's fully charged and ready to go to the next station".
It you click on the "related stories" link titled "In D.C. And China, Two Approaches To A Streetcar Unconstrained By Wires", you can read about Guangzhou's wireless tram: "You can see that as the train enters the station, it just lightly touches those contact strips, and in 20 seconds it's fully charged and ready to go to the next station".
"The Woodward route will employ off-wire technology, with 60 percent of the line operating on battery power provided by 750-volt rechargeable lithium-ion batteries."
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/2015/06/08/rail-bu...
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/2015/06/08/rail-bu...
Seattle has a very over-complicated overhead system so the trams can share streets with electric trolly buses. It took took a lot of additional time to deploy due to that. Wellington decided to ditch electric trolly buses (and ignored recommendations by residents to re-implement an airport/golden-mile tram, sadly).
The battery tech in non-overheard wire based trams is still pretty expensive and high maintenance. I really don't think it's worth the price.
Rail take years to setup, and despite it being amazing and necessary, it's also political suicide in America's "We hate public transport because <insert reason here>" America is decades behinds the world in real public transport; including mid/high income countries that are way less densely populated.
The battery tech in non-overheard wire based trams is still pretty expensive and high maintenance. I really don't think it's worth the price.
Rail take years to setup, and despite it being amazing and necessary, it's also political suicide in America's "We hate public transport because <insert reason here>" America is decades behinds the world in real public transport; including mid/high income countries that are way less densely populated.
I visited Seattle recently and wondered what was up with that. That and the monorail...
As it is, I mostly walked everywhere, including from the Space Needle over to Safeco Field.
As it is, I mostly walked everywhere, including from the Space Needle over to Safeco Field.
To be fair that monorail was built a really long time ago. And are any of those things really better than the existing buses?
For some commutes, particularly to Capitol Hill and the University District, or into South Seattle or the airport, Link Light Rail is much better than the buses, largely due to it being entirely separated from street traffic for its entire line.
This goes back to Americans hating public transport for really silly reasons and voting down the expansion of the Monorail's green line. It was already funded too:
http://seattlemonorail.org/smp/greenmap.html
Seattle turned down the federal money that would eventually become Atlanta's MARTA system.
http://seattlemonorail.org/smp/greenmap.html
Seattle turned down the federal money that would eventually become Atlanta's MARTA system.
This is a gross mischaracterization. I lived in Seattle at the time. The green line project was born, and only lived as long as it did, due to public support in four consecutive ballot initiatives. Let's review:
* The first in 1997 basically blessed the project and created the corporate entity to build it, got 53% of the vote.
* A second in 2000 approved public funds to plan it and passed with 56%.
* A third in 2002 approved a motor vehicle excise tax to fund it, and was more controversial (since real money was at stake) and only squeaked through with 50.2% of the vote.
* A fourth initiative in 2004 was intended to kill the project by directing the city to deny air rights above public streets to the project, and was thumped with 64% voting no.
* It was the fifth initiative in 2005 that killed the project, demanded by the city after a disastrous financing plan was announced (The excise tax approved in the 2002 referendum did not deliver the expected revenue, and a ridiculous financing scheme was proposed to cover the shortfall that would result in $9 billion in interest being paid on $2 billion in construction.) And on top of that, the line was significantly shortened, dropping desperately needed service to Ballard.
The fate of this project is more an object lesson in what it takes to actually accomplish a project with popular support in the face of sustained opposition. The whole project was hated from the get-go by some big money in town who had de-facto control over the city council and the mayoralty. That's why there were so many ballot initiatives - the city government was dragged kicking and screaming by the public, through votes to build the damn thing, in the face of well-financed campaigns against the enabling referendums.
In the end, it took self-inflicted injury by the project staff (bad financing plan on top of a scaled-back green line) to get the public to pull the plug. I don't think it's fair to pin the failure of this particular project on "hating public transport for silly reasons."
* The first in 1997 basically blessed the project and created the corporate entity to build it, got 53% of the vote.
* A second in 2000 approved public funds to plan it and passed with 56%.
* A third in 2002 approved a motor vehicle excise tax to fund it, and was more controversial (since real money was at stake) and only squeaked through with 50.2% of the vote.
* A fourth initiative in 2004 was intended to kill the project by directing the city to deny air rights above public streets to the project, and was thumped with 64% voting no.
* It was the fifth initiative in 2005 that killed the project, demanded by the city after a disastrous financing plan was announced (The excise tax approved in the 2002 referendum did not deliver the expected revenue, and a ridiculous financing scheme was proposed to cover the shortfall that would result in $9 billion in interest being paid on $2 billion in construction.) And on top of that, the line was significantly shortened, dropping desperately needed service to Ballard.
The fate of this project is more an object lesson in what it takes to actually accomplish a project with popular support in the face of sustained opposition. The whole project was hated from the get-go by some big money in town who had de-facto control over the city council and the mayoralty. That's why there were so many ballot initiatives - the city government was dragged kicking and screaming by the public, through votes to build the damn thing, in the face of well-financed campaigns against the enabling referendums.
In the end, it took self-inflicted injury by the project staff (bad financing plan on top of a scaled-back green line) to get the public to pull the plug. I don't think it's fair to pin the failure of this particular project on "hating public transport for silly reasons."
[deleted]
I rode this last night. It has a flaw that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere.
In the midtown area, the streetcar tracks are in the outermost lanes of the 6-lane street. This causes a problem at intersections because the Qline can easily be blocked by cars that are trying to turn right off of Woodward (the main road).
The problem gets worse when you consider that this rail line was built to incentivize more people to come downtown. More foot traffic will inevitably block more cars at crosswalks, which in turn slows down the streetcar.
I'm assuming they can attempt to fix this by limiting the number of legal right hand turns or fix the lights to stay green until the streetcar passes through, but I'm not sure there will ever be enough pressure to do so.
In the midtown area, the streetcar tracks are in the outermost lanes of the 6-lane street. This causes a problem at intersections because the Qline can easily be blocked by cars that are trying to turn right off of Woodward (the main road).
The problem gets worse when you consider that this rail line was built to incentivize more people to come downtown. More foot traffic will inevitably block more cars at crosswalks, which in turn slows down the streetcar.
I'm assuming they can attempt to fix this by limiting the number of legal right hand turns or fix the lights to stay green until the streetcar passes through, but I'm not sure there will ever be enough pressure to do so.
One thing that's particularly absurd about this line: the headway (average time between trains) is 20 minutes, and they don't even publish the schedule! Meanwhile, the existing bus service along the same road will continue to operate at 6-8 minute intervals...
Curious as to why these are better than buses? Are they that much more energy efficient or something to account for the high cost of installation?
The flexibility and lower cost of buses is actually a profound disadvantage from an economic signalling perspective.
I'd argue the most important reason why tram or rail line is better than a bus is the sunk cost of installation, which prevents rerouting and discourages withdrawal of service. This encourages private investment along the service corridor because the route is not subject to political whims. In other words, it can be relied upon for time scales on the order of decades, and that matters in real estate.
(Also they're generally much more pleasant to ride than buses, but I don't want to overemphasize aesthetics. The real reason people prefer trains over buses is reliability.)
I'd argue the most important reason why tram or rail line is better than a bus is the sunk cost of installation, which prevents rerouting and discourages withdrawal of service. This encourages private investment along the service corridor because the route is not subject to political whims. In other words, it can be relied upon for time scales on the order of decades, and that matters in real estate.
(Also they're generally much more pleasant to ride than buses, but I don't want to overemphasize aesthetics. The real reason people prefer trains over buses is reliability.)
They don't stand in traffic. Tram lines are built in a way they have a physical priority on the road. They can also take a lot more people than a bus. Streetcars are good for you :), it is funny to see how people are viewing them as a novelty. Down here in Europe, after some degradation (but not outright removal as in the U.S.) in 1970-1980s, tram lines are being built like crazy. East European countries especially benefit since they didn't see much tram degradation - time when a personal car was in vogue in the 70s-80s was Soviet times for them, so they didn't have cars, and by 1989 cities have realized that scrapping public transport in a city is impossible.
These are not old-timey tourist-trap "streetcars" wobbling around at 15mph. Modern "trams" are fast, quite, provide better ammenities for wheelchairs and strollers and provide greater travel comfort. Like rolling stock in general, they're built to higher standards compared to buses and will last a lot longer with way smaller maintanace cost.
They also use a lot less energy per passenger-mile to move due to the minimal friction of steel wheels on rails compared to rubber wheel.
They also use a lot less energy per passenger-mile to move due to the minimal friction of steel wheels on rails compared to rubber wheel.
Ridership goes up when bus lines are converted to tram lines, by something like 50%, or at least that's what I remember from an article I read years ago about that sort of thing here in Munich (which I can't seem to find).
Personally, I prefer the tram to the (Diesel) bus, since it's less shaky, less noisy, wider, longer and brighter. It's really a much nicer way to travel. Trams also tend to get their own signals and/or lanes a lot more than buses seem to, but that's of course not an inherent feature.
Personally, I prefer the tram to the (Diesel) bus, since it's less shaky, less noisy, wider, longer and brighter. It's really a much nicer way to travel. Trams also tend to get their own signals and/or lanes a lot more than buses seem to, but that's of course not an inherent feature.
Electric vehicles provide an interesting outlook as they would have lower maintenance, less braking, no fuel smell, and no vibration. Along with more active suspension technologies.
Emissions for one. Ever walked or driven behind a city bus in low gear? The diesel exhaust is quite disgusting.
Light rail tends to arrive on time more often. I've been stuck at a bust stop for an hour only to have all 3 scheduled buses arrive at the same time. They were all stuck in traffic.
Light rail trends have shown they have a lot of green space around them. Even the space between the tracks is inlayed with grass. A bus line feels temporary while rail stations are permanent. Rail favours development.
Light rail tends to arrive on time more often. I've been stuck at a bust stop for an hour only to have all 3 scheduled buses arrive at the same time. They were all stuck in traffic.
Light rail trends have shown they have a lot of green space around them. Even the space between the tracks is inlayed with grass. A bus line feels temporary while rail stations are permanent. Rail favours development.
I prefer taking the tram over taking the bus, because
a) It's faster because it does not get stuck in traffic usually (mostly runs in its own tracks).
b) It's more comfortable. The ride is smoother. It's quieter. It's more spacious and you're more likely to find a good seat.
I live in a city with many teams and busses and I surely prefer the trams.
a) It's faster because it does not get stuck in traffic usually (mostly runs in its own tracks).
b) It's more comfortable. The ride is smoother. It's quieter. It's more spacious and you're more likely to find a good seat.
I live in a city with many teams and busses and I surely prefer the trams.
Higher capacity, tend to be more durable (with some still in service after 50+ years of service), and yes more energy efficient.
E-class trams [1] that are being deployed (46 in service and more added each month) here in Melbourne can carry up to 210 passengers (64 seated, 146 standing).
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-class_Melbourne_tram
E-class trams [1] that are being deployed (46 in service and more added each month) here in Melbourne can carry up to 210 passengers (64 seated, 146 standing).
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-class_Melbourne_tram
If your goal is to move the max people for min cost, buses almost always win. Those aren't the only variables which are important however.
Just Google "light rail vs bus" and you will get a variety of perspectives. It's a matter of some controversy.
Aw prob not for you, it's more of a Shelbyville idea..
[monorail song here]
[monorail song here]
More info on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QLine
Note that all rides are free this weekend!
Note that all rides are free this weekend!
At the end of the day Detroit is a city which was designed from the ground up to discourage public transport. Combine that with the lack of any sort of a population within walking distance of the Q Line and the line neither going or connecting to anything meaningful, the lack of expansion plans and at the end of the day you just have a shiny train to put in a press release that won't even see enough ridership to even come close to covering it's own cost.
Have a look at the cover photo in this article - Woodward is the centre right road in that image. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/07/opinion/sunda... - This is the road along which the Q Line is travelling. I think you can see exactly how much ridership one can reasonably expect.