Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/26/us/turkey-protesters-attack-video-analysis.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
104 comments
Would Ergodan's goons (all 10 of them) go into this confrontation without his (or his lead security guards) consent? I know from various stories/documentaries that US Secret Service presidential protection details are extremely tightly controlled. There would never be spontaneous involvement in the protest unless they were immediately threatened. Which they clearly aren't in this video.
I was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth research on that incident and not have this vital video?
I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.
I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.
I agree, the analysis is great, but linking to an unedited source video would help remove doubt that things might be shown out of context. If you haven't found one yet, here's one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/recep-ta...
If the perpetrators of the violence shown in the video are not charged with criminal acts, I think this means we are no longer operating under rule of law.
If the perpetrators of the violence shown in the video are not charged with criminal acts, I think this means we are no longer operating under rule of law.
?
That video is in the article, specifically talking about the possibility of Erdogan ordering the attack.
That video is in the article, specifically talking about the possibility of Erdogan ordering the attack.
> was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth research on that incident and not have this vital video
Licensing perhaps?
Licensing perhaps?
Or you know, just find a deaf Turk...
> He repeatedly kicked Ms. Usoyan, 34, as she lay on the ground. According to New Jersey records, Mr. Yildirim is 50 and manages three companies in that state.
Mr. Yildrim does not appear to have diplomatic immunity, so why aren't assault and battery charges being levied against him?
Mr. Yildrim does not appear to have diplomatic immunity, so why aren't assault and battery charges being levied against him?
I don't think diplomatic immunity protects the rest of them either. It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.
>It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.
That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.)
Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries.
But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country.
Let me know if you see anything to the contrary here or anywhere else online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity
That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.)
Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries.
But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country.
Let me know if you see anything to the contrary here or anywhere else online:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity
Different categories of diplomatic/consular staff have different levels of diplomatic immunity. Here's a complicated chart that details some of that:
https://www.state.gov/m/ds/c9127.htm
Note in particular that rather a lot of categories allow the offender to be detained or arrested, and to be prosecuted if their actions were not "official acts". (And if "beat up those protesters" were formally affirmed as an official act, I suspect that would have more serious consequences than just prosecuting a few security staff members. Assuming the current administration didn't just give Erdogan a high five, anyway.)
https://www.state.gov/m/ds/c9127.htm
Note in particular that rather a lot of categories allow the offender to be detained or arrested, and to be prosecuted if their actions were not "official acts". (And if "beat up those protesters" were formally affirmed as an official act, I suspect that would have more serious consequences than just prosecuting a few security staff members. Assuming the current administration didn't just give Erdogan a high five, anyway.)
>But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country.
The host country can do anything they want. Whether or not it will cause further problems is based on the balance of power between various nations.
As an obviously ridiculous example: imagine Osama bin Laden showed up in NYC with diplomatic immunity. There is zero chance he would not be arrested, regardless of what some words say.
The host country can do anything they want. Whether or not it will cause further problems is based on the balance of power between various nations.
As an obviously ridiculous example: imagine Osama bin Laden showed up in NYC with diplomatic immunity. There is zero chance he would not be arrested, regardless of what some words say.
Wars were started over less. Maybe a little more patriotism is called for nowadays
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Jenkins%27_Ear possibly the most famous example.
The problem is that Turkey is a member of NATO and a key US ally in the Middle East, which makes going to war with them .. inconvenient.
The problem is that Turkey is a member of NATO and a key US ally in the Middle East, which makes going to war with them .. inconvenient.
>Wars were started over less.
We're still dealing with the consequences of a war we started for apparently no reason other than than wanting to do it. Maybe we should raise the bar for going to war, and not keep lowering it.
We're still dealing with the consequences of a war we started for apparently no reason other than than wanting to do it. Maybe we should raise the bar for going to war, and not keep lowering it.
Yes, but right now the actions being taking in response are substantially less than going to war.
Patriotism is a part of what this was about. Turning down the dial would be more more likely to help in my view.
because they're buddies with trump
Get this man to the top ^^^
I found this video a few days ago on reddit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-bxgP9g
One thing that I found intriguing as an engineer is that Ertogan's bodyguards etc are trying to shout louder than the protesters.
At first I thought ok thats natural, 2 parties have a disagreement and then each tries to be louder.
The sound from Ertogan's trained personnel thought isn't exactly an argument. You'll hear through the whole video the sound : 'EEEEEEEEEE' coming up from his bodyguards which is definitely not argument, just a way to mask protesters voice.
So to conclude my point, is that Ertogan has trained soldiers trying to shout louder than the protesters so he won't hear anything bad about him. Pretty much the same he is doing to his country by blocking wikipedia etc.
I can only think of one other person that would do such a thing, Kim.
One thing that I found intriguing as an engineer is that Ertogan's bodyguards etc are trying to shout louder than the protesters.
At first I thought ok thats natural, 2 parties have a disagreement and then each tries to be louder.
The sound from Ertogan's trained personnel thought isn't exactly an argument. You'll hear through the whole video the sound : 'EEEEEEEEEE' coming up from his bodyguards which is definitely not argument, just a way to mask protesters voice.
So to conclude my point, is that Ertogan has trained soldiers trying to shout louder than the protesters so he won't hear anything bad about him. Pretty much the same he is doing to his country by blocking wikipedia etc.
I can only think of one other person that would do such a thing, Kim.
This same scenario happened last year outside the Brookings Institution. I suspect the reason why there's such good video coverage of this year's attack, is they were ready for it, based on what happened last year.
In the short term, I agree with John McCain, the Turkish ambassador to the U.S. should be expelled over this event.
What precedes all of this is the U.S. supports the YPG, which Erdogan considers a terrorist organization. Pretty much any Kurdish organization is probably considered a terrorist organization to the Turkish government, however. The U.S. supports the YPG, makes Erdogan look weak in that he doesn't have enough sway to get one of their worst domestic political and ethnic enemies disenfranchised by the U.S. so Erdogan retaliates with thugs right in the U.S. capitol to embarrass the Trump (and last year the Obama) adminstration. It's tit for tat.
Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose.
In the short term, I agree with John McCain, the Turkish ambassador to the U.S. should be expelled over this event.
What precedes all of this is the U.S. supports the YPG, which Erdogan considers a terrorist organization. Pretty much any Kurdish organization is probably considered a terrorist organization to the Turkish government, however. The U.S. supports the YPG, makes Erdogan look weak in that he doesn't have enough sway to get one of their worst domestic political and ethnic enemies disenfranchised by the U.S. so Erdogan retaliates with thugs right in the U.S. capitol to embarrass the Trump (and last year the Obama) adminstration. It's tit for tat.
Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose.
>Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose.
Unless Turkey loses control of the Bosphorous straits or Russia stops being what it is, Turkey will always be welcome at the table. Help with Daesh and/or pushing democratic ideas is neither the purpose of NATO, nor the origin of NATO, nor the future of NATO.
Unless Turkey loses control of the Bosphorous straits or Russia stops being what it is, Turkey will always be welcome at the table. Help with Daesh and/or pushing democratic ideas is neither the purpose of NATO, nor the origin of NATO, nor the future of NATO.
"NATO promotes democratic values"
http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html
And Erdogan, right now, is doing the opposite of that. It is completely valid to question Turkey's role in NATO, but the current U.S. president doesn't care about or even understand what democracy is, because he's an ignoramous about pretty much everything. All he cares about is "winning" and that's why he praises autocrats like Erdogan, Duerte, Salman, Kim Jong Un, and el-Sisi, while criticizing American allies. I think he's kinda jealous of autocrats who get things done and doesn't have to deal with silly legislatures and courts. So I have no doubt that this administration will be fine with Turkey staying in NATO for the foreseeable future despite the incongruity on democratic values.
And Erdogan, right now, is doing the opposite of that. It is completely valid to question Turkey's role in NATO, but the current U.S. president doesn't care about or even understand what democracy is, because he's an ignoramous about pretty much everything. All he cares about is "winning" and that's why he praises autocrats like Erdogan, Duerte, Salman, Kim Jong Un, and el-Sisi, while criticizing American allies. I think he's kinda jealous of autocrats who get things done and doesn't have to deal with silly legislatures and courts. So I have no doubt that this administration will be fine with Turkey staying in NATO for the foreseeable future despite the incongruity on democratic values.
Even their commitment to fighting Daesh is highly questionable.
YPG has strong ties to PKK, which is recognized as a terrorist organization by NATO and EU [1] [2].
I strongly dislike Erdogan and his policies, and certainly don't approve the attack but YPG is a different issue. It is sad that most outsiders' view about the Kurdish conflict boils down to 'Turkey hates Kurds'. It's just not like that. We should all unite against terrorism.
[1]: http://www.coedat.nato.int/publication/datr/volume8-2016/01-... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party
I strongly dislike Erdogan and his policies, and certainly don't approve the attack but YPG is a different issue. It is sad that most outsiders' view about the Kurdish conflict boils down to 'Turkey hates Kurds'. It's just not like that. We should all unite against terrorism.
[1]: http://www.coedat.nato.int/publication/datr/volume8-2016/01-... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party
YPG and PKK are two different entities.
Great analysis, but I must ask the obvious question. US citizens attacked by foreign entities on US soil. What gives?
Not only that, but some of the "civilian" folks in the video (towards the bottom of the article) are just plain US citizens and residents. That they haven't been arrested yet either is pretty astounding.
We can't change the past, but as an American, my question is what will my government do to protect its citizens and how will it obtain justice for them. Will it even try?
Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.
Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.
I'm guessing nothing will happen. I have no idea if diplomatic immunity applies, but also the president and Erdogan are friendly. And, we have a lot of contempt for protestors in our country.
It seems to have little to do with the President, as the same thing happened last year at the Brookings Institute - and if you recall, a different gentleman was President at the time.
From my point of view, it seems that the State Department diplomats and bureaucrats have turned into ball-less, useless functionaries that care more about the feelings of foreign heads of state than the civil rights of US citizens.
If that weren't the case, these people would have been expelled from the US with strongly worded diplomatic requests/suggestions/demands that they be tried for their actions in a Turkish court. That's how it's supposed to work at least.
From my point of view, it seems that the State Department diplomats and bureaucrats have turned into ball-less, useless functionaries that care more about the feelings of foreign heads of state than the civil rights of US citizens.
If that weren't the case, these people would have been expelled from the US with strongly worded diplomatic requests/suggestions/demands that they be tried for their actions in a Turkish court. That's how it's supposed to work at least.
Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with him, I just meant it doesn't hurt to have friends in high places.
One wanna-be dictator to another, my guess is nothing will happen.
Mmm, I think one of them is less of a wannabe than the other. At least so far.
One is just earlier in his career
i don't think trump will be a dictator. it doesn't look like he has that intention - his steps are not cohesive, and not deeply rooted to assert his absolute authority.
not to mention the us has better foundation of democracy.
not to mention the us has better foundation of democracy.
He signs unconstitutional orders and then attacks the court when they strike them down. He heaps praise on dictators and slams democratic allies. He probably won't be a dictator because he's incompetent but it's clear how he wants to operate.
Probably, but dictatorship comes as more fundamental. Signing orders is the worst way to do it. You first grow a base thqt would support you, bring them into positions that would strenghten your absolute power. Sure trump is doing that somewhat but i dont think it is happening at fundamental levels. You also need charisma somewhat.
Good thing is, the US has the checks and balances that would make it really hard for him to achieve his potential goal. It takes more than one guy to make it happen.
I have seen it first hand, in Turkey.
Good thing is, the US has the checks and balances that would make it really hard for him to achieve his potential goal. It takes more than one guy to make it happen.
I have seen it first hand, in Turkey.
[deleted]
What gives? Trump is president. He doesn't care because he has investments in Turkey and invited Erdogan to the White House. Welcome to the current state of affairs in the USA.
Also feel free to body slam any reporter you don't like asking you annoying questions about healthcare either, you won't face any repercussions from the GOP.
Also feel free to body slam any reporter you don't like asking you annoying questions about healthcare either, you won't face any repercussions from the GOP.
Well, that happens when a dictator visits a wannabe dictator. Erdogan and his goons obviously thought they'd be let off without any consequences for this - and indeed they were right.
And I'm sure there won't be any consequences in the future - it's not a Trump thing to anger like-minded friends.
And I'm sure there won't be any consequences in the future - it's not a Trump thing to anger like-minded friends.
Turkey's strategic importance is nothing new, it's just where it is on the board.
"strategic importance" is not an excuse for letting such things (or the massive violation of human rights happening in Turkey right now) happen without consequence.
If only things were that simple.
The footage is really well edited to highlight what's going on. I wonder if it's actually multiple footage augmented together or just single footage. At least it feels as so.
I'm totally impressed. The folks who generated this content should very much be given more assignments of the like. It's very much going to set a gold standard with future video highlights, especially in this age of video camera ubiquity with cell phones, surveillance, badge cams, dash cams, etc.
America is in a sad, sad state when there is no recourse for something like this. What are we, afraid of diplomatically insulting an Islamist dictatorship?
It's more of a practical concern. Our diplomats and their details operate in places like Turkey every day and we want those governments to grant us lots of leeway when dealing with the local population. That being said, this is a spectacular display of diplomatic idiocy.
This comment is pretty fascist. The notion that it's OK to run around assaulting peaceful protesters because that gives you the scope to similarly ignore human rights elsewhere, and the phrasing "deal with" ... really don't sit well with me. A lot of what is wrong with the world rests on this kind of thinking.
I never said it was ok to treat people like that, or that I agree with that line of thinking at all. Describing something fascist doesn't make me fascist. Just that I suspect that is the calculation that goes on when a person decides to overlook this kind thing (which would normally be dealt with as a criminal action). Also tried to point out that there are countless stories of American diplomats and security teams behaving badly.
Turkey is a democracy. Most people there want Erdogan's government and they voted for it.
Diplomatic immunity is part of international law and exists for good reasons. See the Vienna Convention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomati...
If you think that concept is wrong, why not address that or argue for the US to be exempt from the Vienna Convention?
Diplomatic immunity is part of international law and exists for good reasons. See the Vienna Convention:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomati...
If you think that concept is wrong, why not address that or argue for the US to be exempt from the Vienna Convention?
This is a pretty amazing compilation, is there any recourse for this? Are these security guards protected by diplomatic immunity? Is that a stupid question?
This article lightly describes how immunity might work, but despite the title fails to present any recourse besides the obvious "maybe we shouldn't let those specific security guards back into the country after they leave."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/17/h...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/05/17/h...
Not stupid, and they most likely have immunity, if they are officially a part of the delegation.
That's my understanding too. Although I believe that the US could ban those individuals from having immunity in the future and eject them from the country, which is certainly what I'd advocate for here.
There's a wiki article somewhere that was brought up when this discussion happened on reddit that states that members of security details aren't usually granted immunity, only consular officials are.
EDIT: I found it [0]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic...
EDIT: I found it [0]
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic...
Technically Turkey could wave the diplomatic immunity, but considering who ordered the attacks.. though luck
Or my understanding is that the US can revoke their diplomatic credentials and expel them at any time, and that tends to be a more common response to a serious crime than actual waiver of immunity and prosecution.
If they do this in the USA, imagine what they do back home. Wild stuff.
I'm waiting for Mr. Erdogan's next visit to the United States.
I plan to travel to D.C. then and stand in solidarity with anyone who wants to express their freedom of speech within the borders of the US.
Mr. Erdogan and his thuggish retinue insulted the very nature of his hosts, who have been far too gracious to some very undeserving guests.
I plan to travel to D.C. then and stand in solidarity with anyone who wants to express their freedom of speech within the borders of the US.
Mr. Erdogan and his thuggish retinue insulted the very nature of his hosts, who have been far too gracious to some very undeserving guests.
Top-notch editing work and presentation, really impressive.
Don't want to get diverted into politics but I was appalled by not only the incident itself but the fact that Turkey then summoned the US ambassador in Ankara to complain about DC police trying to break up the fight. This is not a healthy sign for the future.
Don't want to get diverted into politics but I was appalled by not only the incident itself but the fact that Turkey then summoned the US ambassador in Ankara to complain about DC police trying to break up the fight. This is not a healthy sign for the future.
It appears to be part of Turkey's new nationalist media strategy. See a similar incident in the Netherlands with some crazy details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Dutch%E2%80%93Turkish_dip...
> About twenty police officers, forming a special forces unit, the Dienst Speciale Interventies, masked and equipped with body armour and automatic weapons, arrested ten members of Kaya's bodyguard, on suspicion of illegally carrying firearms
> A stand-off ensued for several hours in which the Turkish minister refused to leave the car.[7] Just after midnight, a special heavy tow truck, a lift flatbed, was driven into the yard and prepared to vertically hoist the 3.5 tonne car on the flatbed, with the minister still in it, to transport her back to Germany.
(Turkey is probably long past its last free election and we're going to have to work out how to deal with one of the largest European NATO members being an Islamist dictatorship)
> About twenty police officers, forming a special forces unit, the Dienst Speciale Interventies, masked and equipped with body armour and automatic weapons, arrested ten members of Kaya's bodyguard, on suspicion of illegally carrying firearms
> A stand-off ensued for several hours in which the Turkish minister refused to leave the car.[7] Just after midnight, a special heavy tow truck, a lift flatbed, was driven into the yard and prepared to vertically hoist the 3.5 tonne car on the flatbed, with the minister still in it, to transport her back to Germany.
(Turkey is probably long past its last free election and we're going to have to work out how to deal with one of the largest European NATO members being an Islamist dictatorship)
>Don't want to get diverted into politics
I don't think this has much to do with politics. If you're right, left or center, libertarian or authoritarian, doesn't matter, it's basic morality that this unwarranted aggression is wrong and must have consequences. If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.
I don't think this has much to do with politics. If you're right, left or center, libertarian or authoritarian, doesn't matter, it's basic morality that this unwarranted aggression is wrong and must have consequences. If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.
> If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.
This particular president offered to pay the bail for anyone who "kicked the crap" out of protesters at one of his campaign rallies... I doubt he even sees it as a problem.
This particular president offered to pay the bail for anyone who "kicked the crap" out of protesters at one of his campaign rallies... I doubt he even sees it as a problem.
I immediately called for two things. The NRA to organize an armed protest, and to persona-non-grata all attackers not American citizens, and to arrest those that are and don't have DI (diplomatic immunity).
What happened is the Turks are thugs, and when they heard/saw pro PKK "protestors" they consider "terrorists" they wanted to make an example of them. I'm guessing it was also a distraction technique for Erdogan to proceed to wherever he was headed.
What is most shameful to me, is the response from the DC police. If armed foreign thugs are attacking americans, It's time to escalate force. They were straight up sucker-kicking/punching women and old men already on the ground... shots that could have killed or could cause concussion or brain damage.
What no one is talking about is how deeply Turkey has infiltrated the US intel community (lookup Sibel Edmonds for more info), or the fact they we let Turkey get away with this stuff because of geostrategic realpolitik. Turkey is also funding and arming ISIS against the Kurds because to them the Kurds are a greater threat.
What happened is the Turks are thugs, and when they heard/saw pro PKK "protestors" they consider "terrorists" they wanted to make an example of them. I'm guessing it was also a distraction technique for Erdogan to proceed to wherever he was headed.
What is most shameful to me, is the response from the DC police. If armed foreign thugs are attacking americans, It's time to escalate force. They were straight up sucker-kicking/punching women and old men already on the ground... shots that could have killed or could cause concussion or brain damage.
What no one is talking about is how deeply Turkey has infiltrated the US intel community (lookup Sibel Edmonds for more info), or the fact they we let Turkey get away with this stuff because of geostrategic realpolitik. Turkey is also funding and arming ISIS against the Kurds because to them the Kurds are a greater threat.
There's not much the police could have done. Erdogan's bodyguards had guns and there were more of them -- possibly soldiers in the embassy with rifles, as well. There would have been a shootout, and most likely all of the police and perhaps some/all of the protesters as well would have been dead.
I think we should be treating this as an attack by the government of Turkey against United States civilians. They are no longer an ally. I suspect that we unfortunately have more to lose than Turkey by ending our friendly relationship, but so be it. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship isn't good for either country.
I would like to see the bodyguards prosecuted, but at the same time I expect they are operating under some kind of threat worse than what the United States legal system could potentially do to them. Maybe their wives and daughters will be arrested if they don't attack certain protesters? They may be in a no-win situation. The best thing may be to just get them to leave and not return, even if that offends our sense of justice.
I think we should be treating this as an attack by the government of Turkey against United States civilians. They are no longer an ally. I suspect that we unfortunately have more to lose than Turkey by ending our friendly relationship, but so be it. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship isn't good for either country.
I would like to see the bodyguards prosecuted, but at the same time I expect they are operating under some kind of threat worse than what the United States legal system could potentially do to them. Maybe their wives and daughters will be arrested if they don't attack certain protesters? They may be in a no-win situation. The best thing may be to just get them to leave and not return, even if that offends our sense of justice.
You know, as a libertarian, I constantly get told about the virtues of government and how we need it to protect us (you know, from wandering War Lords or some such). The police being an extension of that protection.
And look what happened here. Helpless citizens, being beaten and attacked in plain site, in front of police, and even recorded doing it. And not a damn thing is done. Screw geo-politics, the police should by all means have escalated immediately, called for backup and arrested/shot the assailants. That is their job, we are told. You need only hypothesize what would have happened if this was a gathering of some sort of gang, and it was assaulting individuals the same way.
This is a "war lord" from another land, attacking your citizens in front of you. The blatant double-standard should be enough to throw up red-flags for every single citizen seeing it.
And look what happened here. Helpless citizens, being beaten and attacked in plain site, in front of police, and even recorded doing it. And not a damn thing is done. Screw geo-politics, the police should by all means have escalated immediately, called for backup and arrested/shot the assailants. That is their job, we are told. You need only hypothesize what would have happened if this was a gathering of some sort of gang, and it was assaulting individuals the same way.
This is a "war lord" from another land, attacking your citizens in front of you. The blatant double-standard should be enough to throw up red-flags for every single citizen seeing it.
> There's not much the police could have done. Erdogan's bodyguards had guns and there were more of them...
I have heard this argument from multiple sources regarding this event but it seems to be based on a misunderstanding of how things like this work, so I strongly disagree. I've been trained on similar situations, and I know the escalation of force procedures in general (DC police are weird sometimes), and the second they saw Turkish nationals punching and kicking old men and women on the ground is the second they should have been escalating force. No, lightly tapping a dude sucker punching a woman on the ground with a baton on the back is not good enough. Sorry, but it simply isn't. I've been beaten worse in fucking training scenarios as the protestor.
Again, the real issue here to me is the lackidasical way in which the DCPD responded. IF they were afraid to enforce the law outside of the embassy there is a much bigger problem here than people are talking about. The same thing works for Americans in embassies abroud. They have a close relationship with and work with the host countries police and other forces... but they are notoriously well trained to not engage beyond embassy perimiter unless absolutely necessary. The fact that you think we should be afraid to enforce the law on Turkish nationals outside but close to their embassy says to me that if you are right, that embassy needs to be shut down, but in general I think you are wrong.
Now, I'm not a cop. I used to be a knuckle-dragging door-kicker, not a fat mall cop like most of the pd in the video look like. I don't know exactly what the pd's should have done, but I do know what they did wasn't it.
To put it another way. If American DSS (Diplomatic Security Service) showed up in England escorting Trump near the new US embassy, and the DSS rushed British protestors and just start fucking them up, I would fully support and expect the Brits to have arrested every single one, wait for diplomatic immunity to be verified (or not), and then proceed accordingly (persona-non-grata for those with, arrest and charge for those without). What I would not expect is to just let DSS walk back to their embassy as if they hadn't broken a dozen laws.
I have heard this argument from multiple sources regarding this event but it seems to be based on a misunderstanding of how things like this work, so I strongly disagree. I've been trained on similar situations, and I know the escalation of force procedures in general (DC police are weird sometimes), and the second they saw Turkish nationals punching and kicking old men and women on the ground is the second they should have been escalating force. No, lightly tapping a dude sucker punching a woman on the ground with a baton on the back is not good enough. Sorry, but it simply isn't. I've been beaten worse in fucking training scenarios as the protestor.
Again, the real issue here to me is the lackidasical way in which the DCPD responded. IF they were afraid to enforce the law outside of the embassy there is a much bigger problem here than people are talking about. The same thing works for Americans in embassies abroud. They have a close relationship with and work with the host countries police and other forces... but they are notoriously well trained to not engage beyond embassy perimiter unless absolutely necessary. The fact that you think we should be afraid to enforce the law on Turkish nationals outside but close to their embassy says to me that if you are right, that embassy needs to be shut down, but in general I think you are wrong.
Now, I'm not a cop. I used to be a knuckle-dragging door-kicker, not a fat mall cop like most of the pd in the video look like. I don't know exactly what the pd's should have done, but I do know what they did wasn't it.
To put it another way. If American DSS (Diplomatic Security Service) showed up in England escorting Trump near the new US embassy, and the DSS rushed British protestors and just start fucking them up, I would fully support and expect the Brits to have arrested every single one, wait for diplomatic immunity to be verified (or not), and then proceed accordingly (persona-non-grata for those with, arrest and charge for those without). What I would not expect is to just let DSS walk back to their embassy as if they hadn't broken a dozen laws.
I think that the police should protect Americans in these sorts of situations, but in this case they were just plain outnumbered and outgunned. Our police are not all-powerful and sometimes they can be taken by surprise and find themselves at a tactical disadvantage. I expect police to do dangerous things in the course of their job, but I don't expect them put themselves into a situation of near-certain death. I don't know what their training is, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of their guidelines for escalating violence is don't do if you're probably going to be on the losing end of that exchange.
The thing that bugs me isn't the police response, it's that there seems to have been no consequences for the Turkish embassy or our relationship with Turkey. Maybe a row of tanks parked on the lawn would have been needlessly dramatic, but at least it would have sent a clear message and escalated force in such a way that Erdogan's security forces would have been at a tactical disadvantage.
So far it seems the Trump administration's response is that this was just a normal day (and we're left with the general impression that there may have been a few fist-bumps and high-fives in private).
The thing that bugs me isn't the police response, it's that there seems to have been no consequences for the Turkish embassy or our relationship with Turkey. Maybe a row of tanks parked on the lawn would have been needlessly dramatic, but at least it would have sent a clear message and escalated force in such a way that Erdogan's security forces would have been at a tactical disadvantage.
So far it seems the Trump administration's response is that this was just a normal day (and we're left with the general impression that there may have been a few fist-bumps and high-fives in private).
Why no charges? (Diplomatic immunity?)
Also, law abiding US citizens can barely get the government's permission to exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Washington, how do foreign body guards manage that?
Also, law abiding US citizens can barely get the government's permission to exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Washington, how do foreign body guards manage that?
I guess it's no longer viable to go to protests unarmed.
Good to know.
Good to know.
A good thought, and in most states, it would be your Constitutional right to do so. However, carrying a weapon is likely to attract additional attention and there's a good chance you'd wind up dead. You're going against a foreign military trained force, and they're probably not used to seeing a normal citizen exercise their civil liberties in such a way. I think peaceful assembly is probably the best approach, and leaving immediately if anyone (protestor or police) incites violence.
I am Turkish by origin, but have been living in USA for 7 years.
I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights. Heck, they don't even know or understand what freedom of speech is.
I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights. Heck, they don't even know or understand what freedom of speech is.
Welcome :) we're glad you're here
>I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights
Yes, and that's very much the point.
Yes, and that's very much the point.
In NL some Turkish minister turned up to canvas for Erdogan's push for more power and was told to get lost. She persisted with bodyguards in tow and showed up by car (after her plane had been denied landing rights).
Next thing you know there was an arrest squad between her car and the Turkish embassy with instructions to shoot if necessary. They managed to de-escalate the situation and sent madam home mission not accomplished. Never seen anything like that here.
Next thing you know there was an arrest squad between her car and the Turkish embassy with instructions to shoot if necessary. They managed to de-escalate the situation and sent madam home mission not accomplished. Never seen anything like that here.
NL?
Never mind, the Netherlands, I am dumb.
Never mind, the Netherlands, I am dumb.
I hear you. I just want to point out that being armed in no way implies the assembly is not peaceful.
Peaceful assembly is absolutely the way to go. My point is rather that foreign actors are violently squashing peaceful protests, so it seems foolish not to come prepared.
Peaceful assembly is absolutely the way to go. My point is rather that foreign actors are violently squashing peaceful protests, so it seems foolish not to come prepared.
lol what? viable? Because of THIS?
Have you never seen examples of US police beating/gassing/hosing/shooting nonviolent protestors before?
Have you never seen examples of US police beating/gassing/hosing/shooting nonviolent protestors before?
Never involving foreign actors, no.
Regardless of the state department, the protestors should sue and the US can freeze assets here.
Even if suing the Turkish government is found impractical, they should definitely sue the thugs who have business interests in USA.
Not sure what it's doing on HN, but this is a really nice piece of journalism, well worth checking out even if you're not interested in the subject matter.
I figured because it was a fairly in-depth analysis of the footage, it was worth posting to the HN community. I'm glad you found it interesting.
I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the iphone. No way to pause/rewind the clips, no complete videos to review, just carefully prepared "analysis" for digestion in a certain way.
> I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the iphone.
Don't complain to the NYT, go complain at Apple. It's Apple's fault that in mid-2017, there is STILL no way for inline videos in ordinary HTML5 web sites.
But, I admit, there's one single huge advantage: iOS devices are not hit with sometimes dozens of megabytes of traffic due to news sites auto-loading/playing videos, or worse, ad videos...
Don't complain to the NYT, go complain at Apple. It's Apple's fault that in mid-2017, there is STILL no way for inline videos in ordinary HTML5 web sites.
But, I admit, there's one single huge advantage: iOS devices are not hit with sometimes dozens of megabytes of traffic due to news sites auto-loading/playing videos, or worse, ad videos...
I can't speak to its behavior on iDevices, but regarding the complete video: As far as I can tell all the clips analyzed were from the video footage in the original NYT report[1] of the incident, which is linked in the very first paragraph of this article. Personally, I think this is a rather good example of reporting on something that perhaps entailed a bit of a judgement, but providing ample and well-documented evidence of how they reached that conclusion. If you disagree, you're more that welcome to go to the source material and come to a different conclusion.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protes...
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protes...
I can't even read the thing. The scroll keeps snapping back to the top. (iOS 10, iPhone 5S)
Thanks for posting it! Very cool article and in-depth piece.
HN is for anything that might interest its audience, you seem interested, and I am too, so it checks the boxes :)
a bodyguard is seen talking to someone in the back of a car. That bodyguard nods to another bodyguard, who then walks towards the protest. The attack begins the second he arrives at the line.
Later, the person in the back of the car gets out. It's Erdogan.
This video didn't get as much press as it should have, I suppose since you can't say it's "proof" he ordered the attack. But come on.