Say Goodbye to Spain's Three-Hour Lunch Break(citylab.com)
citylab.com
Say Goodbye to Spain's Three-Hour Lunch Break
https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/07/say-goodbye-to-spains-glorious-three-hour-lunch-break/534120/
232 comments
Spaniard; can confirm. 3 hour breaks are simply mandatory for small shops. In the south of the country during summer there is literally no way you can go out until... 19 or so if you don't want to die. So if shops closed then, there would be no business.
It is the same all over in southern Greece, for the same reasons. Shops in city and country close until the blasting heat of the midday sun is past, then re-open for a few hours. On the islands some would stay open past midnight, which ended up being a fun time to go shopping.
Small shops manage to operate in, say, Arizona during those hours.
That said, I think Spain's hours are a more natural adaptation to the climate than Arizona's.
That said, I think Spain's hours are a more natural adaptation to the climate than Arizona's.
Arizona is in the car-centric USA. You walk straight from your car with AC into a shop with AC via the shortest path possible.
Spain, like most Europe is a lot more pedestrian/cyclist friendly and I'd imagine that traffic drops off a lot during the heat of the day.
I live in Canada which isn't anything near as hot as Arizona or Spain and I walk/cycle everywhere and I specifically avoid going anywhere from 11am-2pm in July/August if I can help it. sample-size=1, your mileage may vary.
Spain, like most Europe is a lot more pedestrian/cyclist friendly and I'd imagine that traffic drops off a lot during the heat of the day.
I live in Canada which isn't anything near as hot as Arizona or Spain and I walk/cycle everywhere and I specifically avoid going anywhere from 11am-2pm in July/August if I can help it. sample-size=1, your mileage may vary.
Okay, I'm a Canadian living in Spain and can tell you, from 1200 - 1900 in the summer the sun hurts, and yeah, a lot of stuff is done locally = walking or biking (usually walking).
It is much easier in local towns and villages to walk around and get what you need rather than take a car, often a more difficult thing to do given parking scarcity, and really not necessary given that there are many options for going local. I have two supermarkets within a KM of my home, 16 (!) cafeteria/bars/restaurants, and most other services are covered (banks, dry cleaner, gas station etc). In larger cities (Barcelona, Madrid and smaller cities) the neighborhoods tend to have most things. You really only do the long drive to hit larger supermarkets or to go to a mall or something.
It is much easier in local towns and villages to walk around and get what you need rather than take a car, often a more difficult thing to do given parking scarcity, and really not necessary given that there are many options for going local. I have two supermarkets within a KM of my home, 16 (!) cafeteria/bars/restaurants, and most other services are covered (banks, dry cleaner, gas station etc). In larger cities (Barcelona, Madrid and smaller cities) the neighborhoods tend to have most things. You really only do the long drive to hit larger supermarkets or to go to a mall or something.
Shops manage to be open in the Middle East, Africa and Asia where it gets much warmer than Spain and in many places with much less favorable conditions.
I've been to the south of Spain it's hot but 35c isn't unbearable in the middle of the day.
I've been to the south of Spain it's hot but 35c isn't unbearable in the middle of the day.
35C is bad for physical labour, but it's certainly tolerable for things like retail.
Yet another Canadian here yeah we grind to a halt at anything near 30C.
I'm in the humid Maritimes it's 28C but with the humidity it feels like 40C.
I'm in the humid Maritimes it's 28C but with the humidity it feels like 40C.
> Arizona is in the car-centric USA. You walk straight from your car with AC into a shop with AC via the shortest path possible.
Melbourne has summers that are nearly as hot as Phoenix. AC isn't so prevalent here, yet the shops don't change their hours in summer.
Melbourne has summers that are nearly as hot as Phoenix. AC isn't so prevalent here, yet the shops don't change their hours in summer.
Often I think of Canada having the same problems as Arizona, but in reverse (cold instead of hot). Except it sure is convenient that the coldest part of the day is when everyone is asleep.
That's not terribly relevant these days, though.
For the same reasons you mention it makes 2pm in the afternoon the worst time to be on break and out of your air conditioned office or workplace.
For the same reasons you mention it makes 2pm in the afternoon the worst time to be on break and out of your air conditioned office or workplace.
Is 11-2 really the hottest part of your day? That may be when the sun is highest in the sky, but usually the hottest temperatures of the day are closer to late afternoon.
It doesn't matter so much what time the air is actually the hottest, but what time the sun will burn you.
I'd take 37 C air in the shade over 35 C in the midday sun any time.
I'd take 37 C air in the shade over 35 C in the midday sun any time.
Until recently, most Arizonans also grew English-style grass lawns, with water that had to be piped in and species that are certainly not native.
Apparently that's rapidly ending, so maybe the standard schedule will change as well someday.
Apparently that's rapidly ending, so maybe the standard schedule will change as well someday.
> Apparently that's rapidly ending, so maybe the standard schedule will change as well someday.
Those hours are pretty ingrained in US culture, though, and virtually no one (compared to the present population) would live in Arizona without massive amounts of air conditioning anyway, whereas conserving water has a direct economic advantage in the here and now.
Those hours are pretty ingrained in US culture, though, and virtually no one (compared to the present population) would live in Arizona without massive amounts of air conditioning anyway, whereas conserving water has a direct economic advantage in the here and now.
> virtually no one would live in Arizona without massive amounts of air conditioning
I presume you mean south of Flagstaff. It's actually quite nice in the north :)
I presume you mean south of Flagstaff. It's actually quite nice in the north :)
I wouldn't say most Arizona homeowners had grass lawns, as far as Phoenix goes, there are districts such as arcadia that have very large lawns, but I would say that is limited to specific areas.
There are many plants that are not native that still grow very well ranging from Mediterranean species to some that are from the desert regions of Asia.
*edit (Thu Jul 20 13:35:05 EDT 2017) I about parts of Chandler and Gilbert still have water rights tied to the property.
There are many plants that are not native that still grow very well ranging from Mediterranean species to some that are from the desert regions of Asia.
*edit (Thu Jul 20 13:35:05 EDT 2017) I about parts of Chandler and Gilbert still have water rights tied to the property.
You fly into Phoenix and the rampant waste and misuse of water is obvious. All those lawns and pools sitting idly by while Arizona (and California) drink far too deeply from the Colorado and other rivers.
Arizona has always managed its water supply far better than California. And a flyover is misleading, most houses have natural yards and the lawns are all special summer grass adapted to the heat.
Don't forget the people who have painted their dirt/rocks green. From the air, it'd look like grass. (from the street - not so much)
>special summer grass adapted to the heat.
My point is how much water does it take even for that. If what you were saying is true, I'd expect to see that grass growing all over Phoenix and it would be green rather than red.
My point is how much water does it take even for that. If what you were saying is true, I'd expect to see that grass growing all over Phoenix and it would be green rather than red.
It does consume water, but again we manage our water well. I think most people are under the mistaken impression that fresh water is in short supply. The problem is that our water supplies could easily be a free market while still being ecologically friendly. They could easily limited to reusable and naturally refreshed sources, and not drain rivers like the Colorado below safe levels. Market prices would ensure water was used efficiently.
But instead California gave away massive free water rights to landowners who use it to farm in their deserts. Over 90% of their fresh water is given to farmers to grow crops a little cheaper than farmers in other states who aren't raping water supplies, and so bad farming and water usage drives out good.
But instead California gave away massive free water rights to landowners who use it to farm in their deserts. Over 90% of their fresh water is given to farmers to grow crops a little cheaper than farmers in other states who aren't raping water supplies, and so bad farming and water usage drives out good.
While that's a real problem it seems to me like agriculture is a better use of a scarce resource than lawns.
With the invention of air conditioning and an abundance of solar power during the desert day, it's pretty stupid to let the weather dictate your behavior.
People exist in Chicago despite the fact that it would be completely inhospitable without heating sources. The only difference is that air conditioning is a newer invention so people like you view it as some kind of opulent luxury rather than a technological tool like anything else.
People exist in Chicago despite the fact that it would be completely inhospitable without heating sources. The only difference is that air conditioning is a newer invention so people like you view it as some kind of opulent luxury rather than a technological tool like anything else.
> With the invention of air conditioning and an abundance of solar power during the desert day, it's pretty stupid to let the weather dictate your behavior.
You do have to go outside to get anywhere. We don't have completely domed cities yet.
You do have to go outside to get anywhere. We don't have completely domed cities yet.
We sort of do. My 20 mile commute in Seattle involves about 100 feet of walking outside the "dome". I go from my house to my attached garage into my car. To the park-n-ride. From there I walk to the bus. Then ride the bus downtown, where i then walk half a block to my office.
Same thing applies to the cold in Chicago/New York.
Sounds like a decent chunk of the population could deal with living on a Mars colony :)
Try to go out with 45 degrees, with direct sunlight, etc. Some people will even faint within minutes. Because remember you don't get teleported to the shop, you have to walk.
It was 48 degrees in Phoenix a couple weeks ago. We all walked around outside successfully without fainting.
As they say about Phoenix, "it's a dry heat". It's near 20% humidity during peak sunlight during the day. I've been there in really hot summer weather and I was surprised by how really high temperatures didn't feel as hot as I was expecting. To give you an idea of how much this matters, in a gentle breeze, 39.5 C at 20% humidity feels like 57.3 C at 90% humidity.
People definitely don't faint within minutes in a typical Phoenix sunlight. The biggest risks are sunburn and dehydration, both of which take a lot longer.
People definitely don't faint within minutes in a typical Phoenix sunlight. The biggest risks are sunburn and dehydration, both of which take a lot longer.
> To give you an idea of how much this matters, in a gentle breeze, 39.5 C at 20% humidity feels like 57.3 C at 90% humidity.
That cannot possibly be correct.
That cannot possibly be correct.
Humidity has a massive multiplication effect on both cold and hot temperatures.
I would take 110F dry over 80F humid any day. I would also take 10F dry over 30F humid.
I would take 110F dry over 80F humid any day. I would also take 10F dry over 30F humid.
The prior claim was that, in a gentle breeze, 135F and 90% RH was the same as 103F and 20% RH (that hotter AND more humid was the same as less hot and drier).
Sorry, I meant to say that 57.3 C at 20% humidity feels the same as 39.5 C at 90% humidity.
I have in the Phoenix and Death Valley deserts. I think you don't understand the difference between low humidity heat and high humidity heat. The latter is intolerable and causes the problems you described. The former just requires adequate hydration.
I'm from a much milder but still hot climate, and while the summer weather probably wouldn't make you faint in minutes, people spent very little time outside of air conditioned homes, cars, and shops, and the towns were designed around that fact.
have spent much time in 110+ degree weather - you just have to hydrate.
What's the humidity there though? In much of the Southern US, we get temps well above 100 with very high levels of humidity. Even with hydration it is dangerous.
Yes, but at the cost of running crazy air conditioning. The only time I visited Phoenix I arrived near lunchtime and was baffled to be wandering around a seemingly modern city where the streets were entirely free of people. I felt like it I was in the opening scene of a zombie movie or something.
Personally speaking I've never seen much value in living by the clock if it puts you in conflict with the seasons. The notion that people everywhere should adhere to the same schedule regardless of local conditions is inherently absurd.
Personally speaking I've never seen much value in living by the clock if it puts you in conflict with the seasons. The notion that people everywhere should adhere to the same schedule regardless of local conditions is inherently absurd.
Because of the way thermodynamics works, it's much more energy efficient to simply move heat around (air conditioning) than it is to create it from scratch (heating). It costs several times the annual energy to live in Maine than it does to live in Phoenix, for example. We could save a substantial amount on our overall national residential energy budget by moving people from cold areas of the country to Phoenix.
You can heat by moving energy around, too (heat pumps). Indoor/outdoor temperature differentials are admittedly greater in cold-climate winter than hot-climate summer, but on the other hand natural solar heating (greenhouse effect due to windows) is working for you in the winter but against you in the summer.
Sadly in Phoenix you'll find the streets entirely free of people year-round. Even when the weather is nice (Oct-Apr). I am one who walks, and often wonder if I'm just crazy when I notice I'm pretty much the only human not inside a car just walking about. I also not wonder but know it's true when I realize that hey, it really is too damn hot some days and being outside is just nuts.
For the first half of this year, I was walking about 10 miles a day through Seattle suburbs to get to/from work. During that time I think I encountered exactly two other long distance walkers, and everyone else who was outside seemed to be walking to a bus stop or taking their dog out to poop. (I've noticed that a lot of older Indian couples will get out and take a walk around the block in the afternoon, though.) I think it has something to do with cable television and Facebook.
Not just Arizona - this happen even right in the middle of downtown & midtown Atlanta, on streets surrounded by skyscrapers on either side.
I was visiting in April a few years ago and was really surprised how empty the sidewalks were despite the beautiful weather - you would see more people outside walking in a non-central residential neighborhood in berlin in the rain.
I was visiting in April a few years ago and was really surprised how empty the sidewalks were despite the beautiful weather - you would see more people outside walking in a non-central residential neighborhood in berlin in the rain.
My guess would be that Spaniards are more likely to travel on foot or bicycle than Arizonans.
Go into a restaurant or small shop during the 3 hours between 2pm and 5pm, and you can see they might as well be closed (generally).
Restaurants refer to those hours specifically as "dead hours" in my experience.
Restaurants refer to those hours specifically as "dead hours" in my experience.
Restaurants closed at 2PM? That's when most of Spaniards start having lunch...
Would it be too much to ask Arizona to change, then ?
I always thought the Carolinas should do the same thing--no reason to be out doing things in that brutal, mid-day humidity in the summer.
>Small shops manage to operate in, say, Arizona during those hours.
With full on blaring air-conditioning and everybody driving around gus-guzzlers to go 1km further down.
That's not how Spanish cities are built, or the culture they enjoy.
With full on blaring air-conditioning and everybody driving around gus-guzzlers to go 1km further down.
That's not how Spanish cities are built, or the culture they enjoy.
>Literally nobody here takes 3 hour lunch breaks. A lot of offices have 2 hours, yeah, but this is becoming less and less common regardless.
Is that because nobody likes to, or because pressures for employers and economic conformity forces them? That this is "becoming less and less common" (implying it was indeed common) speaks to the latter.
Is that because nobody likes to, or because pressures for employers and economic conformity forces them? That this is "becoming less and less common" (implying it was indeed common) speaks to the latter.
Nobody wants to. In fact, doing no lunch break is considered a privilege. Nobody wants to work from 9AM to 8PM, even if you have three break hours at lunch. That's time you lose for being with family, friends...
We have the 3 hour lunch break here too (Greece), and yes, it is extremely inconvenient. It means you have to do your commute twice, and that you lose the whole day.
Some people like it, because it lets you eat and take a short nap and rest, but then you have to go back to work, which is a pretty big downside.
However, we don't consider it a lunch break here, we consider it as having to work two shorter shifts per day.
Some people like it, because it lets you eat and take a short nap and rest, but then you have to go back to work, which is a pretty big downside.
However, we don't consider it a lunch break here, we consider it as having to work two shorter shifts per day.
>Some people like it, because it lets you eat and take a short nap and rest, but then you have to go back to work, which is a pretty big downside.
That, in Greece and elsewhere where it happens, is usually a habit from an earlier era, when most city businesses were small and/or family owned, retail stores and the like, and people lived in neighborhoods next to their business. So they would just close the store, had lunch or a nap etc at the house, and come back open for business again at the afternoon.
The current situation is a regression, and not because of the remnants of the "3 hour break": commutes and/or major traffic, and offices that demand people stay late without major breaks, so you get the same 8-9pm to late shift, working constantly (and then having to commute back).
That, in Greece and elsewhere where it happens, is usually a habit from an earlier era, when most city businesses were small and/or family owned, retail stores and the like, and people lived in neighborhoods next to their business. So they would just close the store, had lunch or a nap etc at the house, and come back open for business again at the afternoon.
The current situation is a regression, and not because of the remnants of the "3 hour break": commutes and/or major traffic, and offices that demand people stay late without major breaks, so you get the same 8-9pm to late shift, working constantly (and then having to commute back).
>Nobody wants to. In fact, doing no lunch break is considered a privilege. Nobody wants to work from 9AM to 8PM, even if you have three break hours at lunch. That's time you lose for being with family, friends
Only the regular course of modern business, is not to give back the lunch break time to family/friends, but for the companies to have you work 9 to 7 or 8 just without the break.
Only the regular course of modern business, is not to give back the lunch break time to family/friends, but for the companies to have you work 9 to 7 or 8 just without the break.
> There's a mid-morning [...] snack
so you are basically hobbits?
so you are basically hobbits?
Spaniard here. I can confirm. Nobody takes 3-hour lunch breaks. 2 hours are common, but an hour and 30 minutes is more common.
>useless light early in the morning
That light wakes people up and increases their energy levels. It's not always pleasant, but work isn't supposed to be. For example, in the US, pushing school start times back from 8 to 9 results in an increase in student performance (it was originally 9 and then moved to 8 to save money on buses).
That light wakes people up and increases their energy levels. It's not always pleasant, but work isn't supposed to be. For example, in the US, pushing school start times back from 8 to 9 results in an increase in student performance (it was originally 9 and then moved to 8 to save money on buses).
Your example seems contradictory of your point. Since starting school alter is documented to increase student performance (perhaps because it also increases teacher performance), why would you want to have lower performance?
I also don't see why work shouldn't be pleasant except insofar as it's an unavoidable necessity for it to be otherwise. If you want people to work under less pleasant conditions, then the pay should be raised correspondingly.
I also don't see why work shouldn't be pleasant except insofar as it's an unavoidable necessity for it to be otherwise. If you want people to work under less pleasant conditions, then the pay should be raised correspondingly.
You have misinterpreted the example. Students perform better at 9, that is, when the school day corresponds with the solar day. It was moved to 8, as I said, to save money on buses. If it seems insane to you to compromise student achievement in order to save money on buses, please direct your concerns to the Republican Party of the United States, and not to me.
Pay cannot be raised to compensate for the unpleasantness of light coming through your window in the morning. I don't see why you chose to argue about that.
Pay cannot be raised to compensate for the unpleasantness of light coming through your window in the morning. I don't see why you chose to argue about that.
> It gets dark at 6pm in the winter and 10pm in the summer
I dont think its natural anywhere in the world. What time is sunrise during winter?
I dont think its natural anywhere in the world. What time is sunrise during winter?
Sun sat at 4:15 PM in Boston last December 21st. I'd take 6 PM over that. Sunrise was 7:10.
Absolutely gets dark in MN around 6pm or earlier in the winter
About 0830
Matches pretty well with the data on https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/spain/madrid.
> Literally nobody here takes 3 hour lunch breaks. [...] Small shops do close for 3 hours in the middle of the day
Doesn't anybody work in those small shops?
> There's a mid-morning and late-afternoon snack
The mid-morning snack is not generalised and the late-afternoon snack is mostly for kids (after-school "merienda").
Doesn't anybody work in those small shops?
> There's a mid-morning and late-afternoon snack
The mid-morning snack is not generalised and the late-afternoon snack is mostly for kids (after-school "merienda").
Yes, but they don't take 3 hours to have lunch. Also closed to the public doesn't mean not working (back-office!).
Let's call them lunch+siesta breaks then.
Edit: to be clear, I agree that most people doesn't have siestas and three-hours breaks only remain common in some sectors (retail) and places (small cities). The original article doesn't make much sense, by the way.
Edit: to be clear, I agree that most people doesn't have siestas and three-hours breaks only remain common in some sectors (retail) and places (small cities). The original article doesn't make much sense, by the way.
>Doesn't anybody work in those small shops?
It's not a break if they make up that time later. Sounds more like working a shift, and then starting a second shift later.
It's not a break if they make up that time later. Sounds more like working a shift, and then starting a second shift later.
Today I learned unpaid breaks are not breaks.
A break is generally considered as a short period of time amid an otherwise continuous activity. You don't conceive of night as a break between days, even though you could stretch the definition of the word to accommodate that. Likewise the siesta is not simply an overgrown lunch break.
I can assure you that working 4 hours, taking 3 off, then working 4 again, is most definitely a break.
Is working 8 hours, taking 16 off, then working 8 again, a break?
Yes. It's not normally called that, but it's a break. A 5-minute break is a break. A 3-month sabbatical is a break.
Rephrase the original comment for a brief rest when working: "if you make up that 5 minutes later, then it's not a break". It's a nonsensical comment.
Rephrase the original comment for a brief rest when working: "if you make up that 5 minutes later, then it's not a break". It's a nonsensical comment.
Open 'till 9pm? Where? Every time I'm in Spain (mostly in Galiza) it seems like the stores still close at 7-8pm, despite only opening at around 4:30pm.
I'm in Madrid. Independent shops are usually 0930-1400 and 1700-2030/2100. Chains are open about 0900-2100.
> Small shops do close for 3 hours in the middle of the day ...
the next related news headline will be "Say Goodbye to Spain's Glorious Small Shops"
the next related news headline will be "Say Goodbye to Spain's Glorious Small Shops"
Spaniard here can confirm.
I'm from Spain and this article does not represent Spain. Let me expand on this.
The typical workday in Spain (no matter if you are a worker or in an office) goes from 7:00/9:00 to 15:00/18:00. This is usually a 8 hours work day (a lot of unpaid extra hours are quite typical in any IT job).
Usually there are two stops before lucnh, one at the beginning of the day, usually 15 minutes to have a coffee with coworkers and another one of 15-20 minutes at midday (11:00/12:00) to have a piece of fruit or just another coffee.
At lunch there are two options, the ones that leave job at 15:00 usually eat at 15:30 - 16:00 (quite late but quite common), the rest takes an hour to have lunch (usually two dishes and dessert [a bit too much I admit]) and they are allowed to leave normally when they make 8 hours at work.
There are a lot of flexibility if you are not public facing so you can play a bit with the arriving/living time (usually you are allowed to arrive up to 10:00 in the morning).
Only people who lives really close to home (up to 10/15 minutes) goes there to have lunch with their family and they usually also take a power nap of 15 minutes more or less.
Spanish siesta is for Fridays and holidays.
The typical workday in Spain (no matter if you are a worker or in an office) goes from 7:00/9:00 to 15:00/18:00. This is usually a 8 hours work day (a lot of unpaid extra hours are quite typical in any IT job).
Usually there are two stops before lucnh, one at the beginning of the day, usually 15 minutes to have a coffee with coworkers and another one of 15-20 minutes at midday (11:00/12:00) to have a piece of fruit or just another coffee.
At lunch there are two options, the ones that leave job at 15:00 usually eat at 15:30 - 16:00 (quite late but quite common), the rest takes an hour to have lunch (usually two dishes and dessert [a bit too much I admit]) and they are allowed to leave normally when they make 8 hours at work.
There are a lot of flexibility if you are not public facing so you can play a bit with the arriving/living time (usually you are allowed to arrive up to 10:00 in the morning).
Only people who lives really close to home (up to 10/15 minutes) goes there to have lunch with their family and they usually also take a power nap of 15 minutes more or less.
Spanish siesta is for Fridays and holidays.
Spanish siesta is for Fridays and holidays.
It's been a while since I worked in Spain (15 years) but the firm I worked at had an every day siesta policy because the owner likes siestas and had grown his business that way. The company had offices in Barcelona and Valencia so maybe the tradition has deeper roots in Catalonia.
It's been a while since I worked in Spain (15 years) but the firm I worked at had an every day siesta policy because the owner likes siestas and had grown his business that way. The company had offices in Barcelona and Valencia so maybe the tradition has deeper roots in Catalonia.
No, siesta on weekdays has not deep roots in Catalonia.
It is reserved for holidays or weekends
It is reserved for holidays or weekends
Out of curiosity, is it possible that tech jobs follow a more global schedule than more local/traditional professions?
I believe that more "artisan" work or traditional professions does not have an schedule. Also, if you work for yourself you don't have a schedule neither.
A carpenter, for example, will work in projects and probably doesn't have an specific schedule (I believe this applies globally).
A policeman or a nurse will work in work shifts...
But this I can tell you, practically nobody will have a three hours stop in their typical work day.
In the retail industry it's a bit different and you can find small shops owners that usually close from 14:00 to 17:00) and people working in big companies like "Ikea" or "MediaMarkt" that are being forced to have strange daily workshifts with 4 hours working in the morning and another 4 hours in the afternoon... But they are usually young people that hate that and usually goes to the gym with that extra time...
A carpenter, for example, will work in projects and probably doesn't have an specific schedule (I believe this applies globally).
A policeman or a nurse will work in work shifts...
But this I can tell you, practically nobody will have a three hours stop in their typical work day.
In the retail industry it's a bit different and you can find small shops owners that usually close from 14:00 to 17:00) and people working in big companies like "Ikea" or "MediaMarkt" that are being forced to have strange daily workshifts with 4 hours working in the morning and another 4 hours in the afternoon... But they are usually young people that hate that and usually goes to the gym with that extra time...
from someone who lived briefly in madrid: offices take up to 2h lunch. smaller shops and commerce takes around 3. workday can go up to 8pm, like most offices around the world and nobody expects extra paid hours.
now, that was changing at the time. big stores, mostly H&M/zara/forever21 style of chinese fashion dump, are open from 9 to 9 like in the US. big international brands of super markets too.
thats was causing lots of conflicts from unions and such. and that was over 6 years ago. so maybe those companies managed to redefine it in the last decade?
now, that was changing at the time. big stores, mostly H&M/zara/forever21 style of chinese fashion dump, are open from 9 to 9 like in the US. big international brands of super markets too.
thats was causing lots of conflicts from unions and such. and that was over 6 years ago. so maybe those companies managed to redefine it in the last decade?
smaller shops and commerce takes around 3 ¿?
In spain no one have more than 1hour for lunch.. The only ones that could fit in that description are cookers or restaurants staff, working in 2 parts. (12:00 - 16:00) and (20:00 - 23:00). Im from spain btw.
In spain no one have more than 1hour for lunch.. The only ones that could fit in that description are cookers or restaurants staff, working in 2 parts. (12:00 - 16:00) and (20:00 - 23:00). Im from spain btw.
thats was almost a decade ago, but in downtown madrid I couldnt find any local clothier or bank (other than hsbc) that was open during those ~3H. dont remember about other type of places.
As mentioned elsewhere, though, it's not a 3h break, but 3 hours closed to the public. Usually 1-2 of those hours is back office, maintenance, inventory, accounting, etc (well, for banks I'm not sure, but for independent shops that's definitely the case, usually at least)
tfvghbv(2)
This is a non-sense of article as other spaniards have commented. The only companies that close 3 hours in the middle of the day are the shops, usually small shops. They do it because for long part of the year no one goes to the street from 2pm to 5pm, because it is so fucking hot. So instead, our culture close the shops at those times but keep them opens until 9pm or later. It is very common to see shops full of people from 7pm to 9pm.
Some offices have 2 hours lunch break, which I also find non-sense. But 1 hour is usually not enough for us for lunch, we don't eat sandwiches, we are used to do a proper meal with 2 dishes, dessert and coffee.
We also eat quite late, around 2pm or 3pm, but that is mostly because our time doesn't match the Solar time. We should have 1,5 hour less in our clocks. Which makes we really eat at 12:30-1pm of sun time. That is what most countries do as well.
We do take naps, only in summer on our holidays. Usually from 3pm to 5pm, because as I said, it is so fucking hot in summer at those hours. But any foreign who is here in summer does the same (actually probably more % of foreigns take naps than spaniash). People who also have an intense 8hours day job from 7am to 3pm they also take naps, because they wake up quite early and the social life starts at 6-7pm.
Bonus: we don't add chorizo to the paella. The chorizo is mostly for the bbq
Some offices have 2 hours lunch break, which I also find non-sense. But 1 hour is usually not enough for us for lunch, we don't eat sandwiches, we are used to do a proper meal with 2 dishes, dessert and coffee.
We also eat quite late, around 2pm or 3pm, but that is mostly because our time doesn't match the Solar time. We should have 1,5 hour less in our clocks. Which makes we really eat at 12:30-1pm of sun time. That is what most countries do as well.
We do take naps, only in summer on our holidays. Usually from 3pm to 5pm, because as I said, it is so fucking hot in summer at those hours. But any foreign who is here in summer does the same (actually probably more % of foreigns take naps than spaniash). People who also have an intense 8hours day job from 7am to 3pm they also take naps, because they wake up quite early and the social life starts at 6-7pm.
Bonus: we don't add chorizo to the paella. The chorizo is mostly for the bbq
Yup, it's really crazy that you have the same timezone like Germany. The most Western point of (mainland) Spain is at -9.25 Longitude, and time would be correct at +15 Longitude, that's more than 1.5 timezones. Even Barcelona at around +2 Longitude is almost a whole timezone off.
A remind of the dictature and the world war politics that never got fixed. Franco adopted the same timezone as Germany to please Hitler.
> Bonus: we don't add chorizo to the paella. The chorizo is mostly for the bbq
You should try it here in Germany, I was astonied the first time I saw them adding mayonnaise to the paella.
You should try it here in Germany, I was astonied the first time I saw them adding mayonnaise to the paella.
Alioli is actually a super common condiment for paellas/arroces, especially seafood ones. A good "arròs negre" (black rice dish made with cuttlefish ink) is awesome with a super garlicky alioli.
As the other commenter said, we also add Alioli, which is mayonnaise with garlic. Although the original one is only garlic and olive oil. (Ali means garlic and oli means oil in Valencian)
For the people that eat lunch for 2 hours... do they go out to lunch every single day?? No one brings lunch from home?
It depends. Some people bring food some go out. But for 10€ is not worth for everybody to wake up earlier to prepare the meal and later have to warm it up in the microwave. You just go out and lunch. Some companies also have a special compensation for this, they give lunch tickets that you can spend in a lot of restaurants. Those tickets are like real money and are part of your salary but you don't pay taxes for them.
10 euros a day, 5 days a week, is 2,400 euros a year...
The meal ticket thing I understand.
The meal ticket thing I understand.
It depends on the company, they usually don't pay the full meal price. Probably is less and it should be around 1000-1500 a year. I have no idea how are things now with the tickets. (For most people in spain 1000-1500€ is a month salary)
I don't want to start the most alien flamewar in the history of HN, but if we start listing what does not go into paella we might end up with an mpty paella...
It was a joke, there were a flamewar because of someone putting chorizo in the paella:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/04/jamie-oliver-ange...
The response in twitter was very funny
The response in twitter was very funny
Sorry, mine was also a joke :).
Paella is originally from Valencia, but prepared all over Spain, and that leads to some local variations and creative results. International exposure to tourists and foreign cooks has created an even bigger variety of paellas.
But since some years ago, there has been a growing group of Valencians that have been very outspoken (with varying levels of seriousness) about what goes into a paella, and what makes it just an "arroz con cosas" (rice plus things).
They even successfully lobbied to have a correct paella icon in unicode! https://emojipedia.org/shallow-pan-of-food/ But, to great jest, a lot of implementations got it wrong (only apple, twitter, and emojipedia get it right in the previously link).
Supposedly, paella just adds chicken, rabbit, green beans and habones (big white beans) to a saffroned rice.
Paella is originally from Valencia, but prepared all over Spain, and that leads to some local variations and creative results. International exposure to tourists and foreign cooks has created an even bigger variety of paellas.
But since some years ago, there has been a growing group of Valencians that have been very outspoken (with varying levels of seriousness) about what goes into a paella, and what makes it just an "arroz con cosas" (rice plus things).
They even successfully lobbied to have a correct paella icon in unicode! https://emojipedia.org/shallow-pan-of-food/ But, to great jest, a lot of implementations got it wrong (only apple, twitter, and emojipedia get it right in the previously link).
Supposedly, paella just adds chicken, rabbit, green beans and habones (big white beans) to a saffroned rice.
In addition to ingredients, the real distinguishing factor that makes paella paella and not "arròs amb coses" is that the entire dish—including the broth—is prepared from scratch within the paella (the pan, outside of Valencia they're called paelleras). The best online recipe I've found for the whole process is: http://www.lapaella.net/receta-paella-valenciana/
Bocadillos seemed popular (in Pamplona) - are those not typically eating during lunch, or are they just created for foreigners to eat in the street?
That is not a proper lunch. You can eat them for lunch but you don't do it for more than two days in a row. It is not healthy. We have so much good food in spain that no one will eat bocadillos for lunch. We have some called lunch menu where you usually can choose among 3 starters, 3 main dishes and dessert, which also includes drink and coffee sometimes. It is cheaper during weekdays, for 8-12€ you can have these menus. A bocadillo with drink would be 5-7€, so for a little more you can eat healthy.
I am sorry but this is totally backwards. As a Valencian Spaniard I want to set the record straight.
First, siesta is not dead. However, it is considered mostly a holiday luxury or reserved for small shops. It is normal in the extremely hot summer, after lunch we stop for 1h or so. While I do not do siesta, I would say about half+ of the people I know do it (holiday times). I would also say it is highly coupled with the summer heat wave though, in winter not so many people do it.
Then, late lunch. First off, Spain is actually in the "wrong" time zone. We are at the same longitude as UK but it's 1 hour later here. What this means in practical terms is that when it's 2pm here, it is in 1pm relative to the light-time/circadian clock.
However that still does not totally explain the really late lunches. The main reason for that is that we have "almuerzo" at around ~11am (note: the word "almuerzo" in some zones in Spain is "lunch", and in some others it's a mid-morning snack, or second breakfast as I like to call it. I mean here the mid-morning snack). It depends on the job, on the person and on many things, but it's not uncommon that it consists of a mid-sized sandwich of Spanish bread. This [random] image is a quite accurate picture of the places where almuerzo is had and on the type of almuerzo we eat: http://cdn.traveler.es/uploads/images/thumbs/es/trav/2/s/201...
So as you can see, we have a different, important course around 10:30-11:30 that makes us not remain hungry until lunch. Some people prefer lighter snacks of course. Also, breakfast is normally light as we don't have to worry about hunger since we have our almuerzo later on. Normally you'd combine breakfast and almuerzo; if you have too much breakfast then you have a light almuerzo or nothing at all, and the same otherwise.
First, siesta is not dead. However, it is considered mostly a holiday luxury or reserved for small shops. It is normal in the extremely hot summer, after lunch we stop for 1h or so. While I do not do siesta, I would say about half+ of the people I know do it (holiday times). I would also say it is highly coupled with the summer heat wave though, in winter not so many people do it.
Then, late lunch. First off, Spain is actually in the "wrong" time zone. We are at the same longitude as UK but it's 1 hour later here. What this means in practical terms is that when it's 2pm here, it is in 1pm relative to the light-time/circadian clock.
However that still does not totally explain the really late lunches. The main reason for that is that we have "almuerzo" at around ~11am (note: the word "almuerzo" in some zones in Spain is "lunch", and in some others it's a mid-morning snack, or second breakfast as I like to call it. I mean here the mid-morning snack). It depends on the job, on the person and on many things, but it's not uncommon that it consists of a mid-sized sandwich of Spanish bread. This [random] image is a quite accurate picture of the places where almuerzo is had and on the type of almuerzo we eat: http://cdn.traveler.es/uploads/images/thumbs/es/trav/2/s/201...
So as you can see, we have a different, important course around 10:30-11:30 that makes us not remain hungry until lunch. Some people prefer lighter snacks of course. Also, breakfast is normally light as we don't have to worry about hunger since we have our almuerzo later on. Normally you'd combine breakfast and almuerzo; if you have too much breakfast then you have a light almuerzo or nothing at all, and the same otherwise.
I'm guessing that's olives, wine and groundnuts (peanuts) on the table. That bread looks good.
Wow! I was expecting to see something much smaller in the picture. I guess it makes sense if you have very minimal/no breakfast.
That almuerzo looks like enough for breakfast AND lunch!
Well if it's your only/main meal from 7am to 3pm (8h) it's normal that it's that size (;
Lol, you randomly inserted a picture from one of the most famous locals here in Valencia, famous for It's enormous "bocadillos" (and good food obviously!)
BTW, that's the half-size "bocadillo" there ;)
BTW, that's the half-size "bocadillo" there ;)
Yeah, I picked it up randomly and then realized it was "La Pascuala" (:
That place being famous due to their horse steak sandwiches, btw. ;)
This is also part of Mexican culture, sort of. In Mexico City, we would break for lunch around 13:00-14:00 and just take our sweet time, no pressure at all to go back into the office. The workday would end around 18:00-19:00. I think this has its pro and contra, you get a nice big break in the middle of the day, time to enjoy your meal, but also you end up staying in the office way too late. Commute times of one hour are not unusual in Mexico City either, so your whole day is basically gone on the job.
Note that eating schedules may also be different from the Anglosphere. It took me a while to get used to a light meal around noon and a heavy meal around 17:00, which seems more common in the US and Canada. In Mexico the big meal of the day is around 14:00 and you might have a lighter meal, almost a snack, around 21:00 before bed.
Going home for lunch to eat with your family is a bit of an old-fashioned custom in Mexico, but I hear some people still do it. None of my coworkers in the tech sector did, though. We were all mostly young too.
Note that eating schedules may also be different from the Anglosphere. It took me a while to get used to a light meal around noon and a heavy meal around 17:00, which seems more common in the US and Canada. In Mexico the big meal of the day is around 14:00 and you might have a lighter meal, almost a snack, around 21:00 before bed.
Going home for lunch to eat with your family is a bit of an old-fashioned custom in Mexico, but I hear some people still do it. None of my coworkers in the tech sector did, though. We were all mostly young too.
American living in Mexico City. I still can't get used to your eating schedule. Luckily, I work remote and can still eat like a gringo.
Hardly surprising, and probably positive for many Spaniards, but it still makes me a little sad that every country is converging on a very similar way of working.
Globalisation makes it inevitable, of course, but does Monday-Friday, 9-5 really make sense? Why not 8-6 Monday-Thursday with a three day weekend? We developers are often lucky that we can dictate our own hours and experiment with this, but I'd be fascinated to see an entire nation adapt to it and see the effects.
Globalisation makes it inevitable, of course, but does Monday-Friday, 9-5 really make sense? Why not 8-6 Monday-Thursday with a three day weekend? We developers are often lucky that we can dictate our own hours and experiment with this, but I'd be fascinated to see an entire nation adapt to it and see the effects.
> Why not 8-6 Monday-Thursday
There is no one reason why not. For some people it's because they need to work the same schedule as the people they regularly interface with. For some others there is no problem and they do work that schedule. Just depends on the requirements of the job, really.
There is no one reason why not. For some people it's because they need to work the same schedule as the people they regularly interface with. For some others there is no problem and they do work that schedule. Just depends on the requirements of the job, really.
> Globalisation makes it inevitable, of course,
I would push back on this thinking that Globalization itself is inevitable. We have seen the reaction to this thinking in recent years -- you end up with Trumps, and Mays, and (almost) Le Pen's.
Greeks are a prime example -- despite the intense crisis and austerity measures, the country still values its lunch and coffee breaks, despite how much we here in the west criticize them for "being lazy"
I would push back on this thinking that Globalization itself is inevitable. We have seen the reaction to this thinking in recent years -- you end up with Trumps, and Mays, and (almost) Le Pen's.
Greeks are a prime example -- despite the intense crisis and austerity measures, the country still values its lunch and coffee breaks, despite how much we here in the west criticize them for "being lazy"
Globalization is inevitable in that we're not going to un-invent or abandon use of the internet, containerization, or any of the other technological things that allow the existence of global supply chains. Technologies are sometimes lost as a result of social collapse (eg Damascus steel) but they're never willingly decommissioned.
Globalization doesn't have to mean homogenization, though. It's interesting to think about alternative possibilities that are not bound up with the centralization of wealth as a condition of production.
Globalization doesn't have to mean homogenization, though. It's interesting to think about alternative possibilities that are not bound up with the centralization of wealth as a condition of production.
> Greeks are a prime example
I would love to hear from a Greek on this.
It's admittedly a very biased source, but I was following mr. Varoufakis writing/interviews back when the negotiations were being held and my understanding is that the "intense crisis" is, at this point and with the policies in place, mathematically impossible to fix (with really dire results for the country and people). If that's true then I can definitely understand the Greeks wanting to at least have their coffee breaks...
I would love to hear from a Greek on this.
It's admittedly a very biased source, but I was following mr. Varoufakis writing/interviews back when the negotiations were being held and my understanding is that the "intense crisis" is, at this point and with the policies in place, mathematically impossible to fix (with really dire results for the country and people). If that's true then I can definitely understand the Greeks wanting to at least have their coffee breaks...
> I would love to hear from a Greek on this.
I am Greek
I am Greek
Great! If you don't mind me asking, what do you think about the crisis - the reasons for it and the proposed and implemented coping strategies - your country has fallen into?
You seem to suggest that the Greek work ethic is, in part, responsible for the crisis - if so, when that ethic became commonplace? And how come it formed in the first place? And why didn't it disappear naturally?
I'm asking this, because in my country - a post-Soviet one, after 50 years of nominally communist policy - we used to also have little to no respect for work. But that was because there was little correlation between your work and the money it got you. Once we started getting all capitalist in the 90's that started to change and by today most of the society understands that if you want more money you need to work harder.
You seem to suggest that the Greek work ethic is, in part, responsible for the crisis - if so, when that ethic became commonplace? And how come it formed in the first place? And why didn't it disappear naturally?
I'm asking this, because in my country - a post-Soviet one, after 50 years of nominally communist policy - we used to also have little to no respect for work. But that was because there was little correlation between your work and the money it got you. Once we started getting all capitalist in the 90's that started to change and by today most of the society understands that if you want more money you need to work harder.
There are many reasons, too many to list here but in essence, modern Greece has had a very tough time, from the Ottoman yoke, to British control, monarchies and military dictatorships, the Balkan wars in their back yard, then WWI/WWII naturally took the country back further, especially w.r.t to Mussolini (the famous "Oxi day"). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_modern_Greece)
After the war was a military dictatorship. So really we have had 1970 and on (heck 1970 was the first year the government and people could even decide on what _dialect_ of Greek language to use. To me, it's a miracle the country still stands and is a testament to it's resiliency.
The Crisis is a big debt snowball that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, kind of similar to the American housing crisis where people who should have never been getting $500,000 mortgages were given $500,000 dollar mortgages then the world was shocked when they somehow managed to default, and meanwhile you had corrupt Wall Street bankers betting that these people would default.
Similarly, you hand a country who has been in borderline poverty since the formation of their autonomous modern nation all this money, then are surprised when their corrupt politicians and banking institutions (as well as your corrupt Wall Street institutions like Goldman Sachs, who helped these corrupt bankers hide their debt) mishandle it.
Then of course the IMF took advantage of the situation, and it turned into basically one big, as Americans would call it "poor tax" where you take advantage of someone who is already down. (Hey this guy can barely pay for his bills at it is, lets fuck him over and charge him 25$ dollars to cash his 300 dollar paycheck -- like this, but on a country level. Somehow that moderate amount of debt turned into 137% of GDP after it snowballed and stupid ass Greek politicians kept accepting these stupid packages with stupid terms /endrant)
My suggestion about the Greek ethic was a sarcastic one, I put it in quotes, apologies if that didn't come through the text. Many people think just because you value work/life balance that you are somehow "lazy". I think Americans are seeing this now with millennials who demand they have adequate work/life balance (and good for them). It's always been a common adage that Americans live to work and (most European countries) work to live. I don't think this is necessary unique to Greeks, it just so happens we are in the crisis and it's an easy target to point the finger and just say "well if they just weren't so lazy!"
The Crisis is a big debt snowball that shouldn't have been allowed to happen, kind of similar to the American housing crisis where people who should have never been getting $500,000 mortgages were given $500,000 dollar mortgages then the world was shocked when they somehow managed to default, and meanwhile you had corrupt Wall Street bankers betting that these people would default.
Similarly, you hand a country who has been in borderline poverty since the formation of their autonomous modern nation all this money, then are surprised when their corrupt politicians and banking institutions (as well as your corrupt Wall Street institutions like Goldman Sachs, who helped these corrupt bankers hide their debt) mishandle it.
Then of course the IMF took advantage of the situation, and it turned into basically one big, as Americans would call it "poor tax" where you take advantage of someone who is already down. (Hey this guy can barely pay for his bills at it is, lets fuck him over and charge him 25$ dollars to cash his 300 dollar paycheck -- like this, but on a country level. Somehow that moderate amount of debt turned into 137% of GDP after it snowballed and stupid ass Greek politicians kept accepting these stupid packages with stupid terms /endrant)
My suggestion about the Greek ethic was a sarcastic one, I put it in quotes, apologies if that didn't come through the text. Many people think just because you value work/life balance that you are somehow "lazy". I think Americans are seeing this now with millennials who demand they have adequate work/life balance (and good for them). It's always been a common adage that Americans live to work and (most European countries) work to live. I don't think this is necessary unique to Greeks, it just so happens we are in the crisis and it's an easy target to point the finger and just say "well if they just weren't so lazy!"
Greece has one of the longest working journeys of the EU: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/gdp-and-beyond/quality-of-l...
Kind of a pointless chart to me at this point since the data is from 2011 on - massive austerity and joblessness is skewing this data -- the people who do have jobs are working longer just to make the same pay, and the country has 22.5% unemployment, and hovers around 50% youth unemployment. I would be interested in viewing the charts pre-crisis - 2009 and earlier.
Here are the numbers for 2008/9. Greece is still in the top: http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMA...
> Greeks are a prime example -- despite the intense crisis and austerity measures, the country still values its lunch and coffee breaks
Right, and their economy is in free fall. I'm not saying you can't do it, but that cost to doing it is ever-increasing.
Right, and their economy is in free fall. I'm not saying you can't do it, but that cost to doing it is ever-increasing.
Actually the free fall has seemed to have slowed, and bottomed out.
It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise. Is it the best for your GDP? Probably not, but it's honorable. "Cash is King" is not something you hear many Greeks say about one another
It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise. Is it the best for your GDP? Probably not, but it's honorable. "Cash is King" is not something you hear many Greeks say about one another
The whole Eurozone is actuallly in trouble, not just Greece. And it's definitely not Greece's fault, it's bad Euro kickstarting to begin with (not consolidating debt), followed by the 2008 financial crisis, followed by the Eurozone crisis and dumb ECB monetary policy (negative interest rates) in recent years.
Cash is king because you can still use it in times when the banks/ATMs only allow you to withdraw 300 euros.
Cash is king because you can still use it in times when the banks/ATMs only allow you to withdraw 300 euros.
> It's just a different cultural value -- not every culture values the green dollar as much as America or the UK or likewise.
Past Greek governments sure looked like they loved other people's cash a lot for having borrowed so much of it.
It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash.
Past Greek governments sure looked like they loved other people's cash a lot for having borrowed so much of it.
It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash.
> Past Greek governments
Therein lies the distinction. The government of course loves the money. That's why the people are fed up with the greedy politicians and bankers.
> It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash.
It's funny how this statement proves you have absolutely zero knowledge of the culture and are projecting your own pessimistic views on people and societies onto one you know very little about.
Therein lies the distinction. The government of course loves the money. That's why the people are fed up with the greedy politicians and bankers.
> It's funny how that distaste for money and accompanying virtue signaling only managed to manifest itself once it was time to pay back all the borrowed cash.
It's funny how this statement proves you have absolutely zero knowledge of the culture and are projecting your own pessimistic views on people and societies onto one you know very little about.
Spending borrowed money like candy and calling repayment oppression isn't a cultural value I care about protecting.
Bankruptcy exists for a reason. If all debt were risk free, lenders would have no right to charge interest for it.
Lenders who issue loans to organizations who won't ever be able to pay them off aren't a group I care very much for protecting, either. They were sophisticated investors who knew the risks. Greece is a sovereign state, and its first obligation its to its people.
Lenders who issue loans to organizations who won't ever be able to pay them off aren't a group I care very much for protecting, either. They were sophisticated investors who knew the risks. Greece is a sovereign state, and its first obligation its to its people.
Yeah, I have no problem with that, they should declare bankruptcy then, and deal with the fallout. But that's not what Greece chose to do -- they accepted bailout money and continue to complain about it,
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The US economy was in free fall in 2008 and 2001 and had nothing to do with how or when people worked. We're overdue for another one.
All a matter of perspective I suppose, the current "stabilized" Greece is in much worse shape now than the US was at the worst point of the Great Recession (> 20% unemployment!).
Yes, they are/were in bad shape, but from what I understand their problems stem from what our problems were: greed and corruption, not the workforce taking long lunches or not working 40 hours a week. Puerto Rico has similar issues with their economy. They took a lot of loans they shouldn't have.
As an aside, our unemployment is a funny number in that it doesn't include people who have given up looking for work. I think that category is the highest it's been in a while, or in US history. I'm not sure if Greece calculates it in the same manner.
As an aside, our unemployment is a funny number in that it doesn't include people who have given up looking for work. I think that category is the highest it's been in a while, or in US history. I'm not sure if Greece calculates it in the same manner.
i don't criticize them for being lazy
I think a good goal would be shooting for a number of work hours that leave enough time to have another non-work thing you do even more of without having to sacrifice family and friends and every single other minor hobby or activity.
I briefly worked at a company which started at 6am(which meant getting up around 5am). We had "lunch" at 9:30 for 15 minutes, and would finish work at 2pm. I'd be home by 3pm, have dinner at 4pm and be in bed by ~8pm. Weirdly enough, most employees liked that schedule because it meant they were finishing work roughly the same time their kids were finishing school.
This schedule is quite common in more industrial/medical areas. Even if you are not directly working in factory settings you might be required to punch in at 6am, quite a lot of my friend working in automation/aerospace engineering have to be in office at this time. My exgf really like this schedule as she can have most of the day for herself and still be able to do a lot of things outside of her work.
Yeah, there's a factory right near me and shift change is somewhere around 2-2:30 from what I can tell, which I base around movement of people I observe.
> Why not 8-6 Monday-Thursday with a three day weekend?
You're making the mistake that 40 hours is just 40 hours. Business work schedules are about being available during the week, not about working for a fixed amount of time.
You're making the mistake that 40 hours is just 40 hours. Business work schedules are about being available during the week, not about working for a fixed amount of time.
Right, but what I'm saying is that if everyone agreed that "the week" is Monday - Thursday instead of Monday - Friday, things would be different.
that would also decrease the unemployment problem - I'm continually surprised this isn't part of the discussion. Like 40 hours is handed down on clay tablets.
In the startup arena im in (USA) folks often work 8-9am till 7-8pm with half hour to hour MAX lunches.
No one complains, people just burnout and move on in 1-2-3 years. No one gets overtime. It would be nice to have an open discussion with HR or whoever but its a sensitive topic, in this culture you are not "allowed" to tell how much you actually work...
I guess its a "dirty little secret" but 9-5 does not exist anymore (honestly probably never did, at least in my field).
No one complains, people just burnout and move on in 1-2-3 years. No one gets overtime. It would be nice to have an open discussion with HR or whoever but its a sensitive topic, in this culture you are not "allowed" to tell how much you actually work...
I guess its a "dirty little secret" but 9-5 does not exist anymore (honestly probably never did, at least in my field).
You get the culture you tolerate. I've worked at similar companies; never again will I work in an environment that doesn't respect work life balance. I currently work at a startup that understands this.
I agree. What i see around is that most people just tolerate it and are afraid to speak up.
If you work 9 to 5 you are literally viewed as a "lazy one". During interviewing process its often a red flag if a person is not willing to put in "extra hours" unpaid.
The system is broken...
If you work 9 to 5 you are literally viewed as a "lazy one". During interviewing process its often a red flag if a person is not willing to put in "extra hours" unpaid.
The system is broken...
It depends on the origin of the firm (both geographic and industrial). SWIM recently transitioned from a very 'competitively minded' data processing firm where >50 hour weeks and working every 4rd or 4th weekend were the norm for salaried staff to the buyer side in the same industry, and is now getting paid 30%, with a 27.5 workweek, and overtime. Plus a well-stocked break room and Thursday happy hours.
There's some value to both approaches, but a lot of startups rely on young people being willing to buy into an endurance culture and just working them into the ground, while (as you say) exhorting them to keep their salary details secret so they feel like they're beating the market or on a fast track to success. This secrecy doesn't benefit anyone except the employer.
There's some value to both approaches, but a lot of startups rely on young people being willing to buy into an endurance culture and just working them into the ground, while (as you say) exhorting them to keep their salary details secret so they feel like they're beating the market or on a fast track to success. This secrecy doesn't benefit anyone except the employer.
10am - 4:30pm/5pm is pretty well-accepted among the devs where I work (unless you have a lot of projects going on), with working from home on Friday as part of the culture.
Bigger companies aren't as "cool", but the pay is pretty good and the work life balance is unbeatable.
Bigger companies aren't as "cool", but the pay is pretty good and the work life balance is unbeatable.
Alienation is rarely a welcome topic for the people who benefit from it.
I'm in the startup world, and it definitely does still exist. You're probably just working at a bad company.
Different companies have different cultures. The <2 year old startup I work for has 8 hour workdays and people commonly take 30-60 minute lunches if they want. No one cares as long as you are productive and get your stuff done. I get there at 10:15 and leave at 6:00 everyday.
Incredibly, some people (mostly business/marketing, not engineering!) still make themselves work through lunch and stay later. No idea why, but I and others are able to leave after 8 hours so it doesn't affect me.
"9-5" may be rare, but it exists.
Incredibly, some people (mostly business/marketing, not engineering!) still make themselves work through lunch and stay later. No idea why, but I and others are able to leave after 8 hours so it doesn't affect me.
"9-5" may be rare, but it exists.
> Incredibly, some people (mostly business/marketing, not engineering!) still make themselves work through lunch and stay later. No idea why, but I and others are able to leave after 8 hours so it doesn't affect me.
Because the deal for us engineers is that there's not enough of talent and companies fight for people. We're doing the same you described in your post, except the business/marketing have short lunches and work late. There's many people waiting to take their place, where you must spend great effort to hire a good engineer.
Because the deal for us engineers is that there's not enough of talent and companies fight for people. We're doing the same you described in your post, except the business/marketing have short lunches and work late. There's many people waiting to take their place, where you must spend great effort to hire a good engineer.
9-5 (or more like 9-6) exists in a lot of mature companies,
It most certainly exists. Just not in "the startup arena".
I'm a SWE at Google. I get in at 8, leave at 3:50, maybe do a bit of work on the bus home.
My schedule has caused no one any problems.
My schedule has caused no one any problems.
Just get out of startups and into more established companies, 9-5 not only exists, it's the norm. It's not a dirty little secret, you're just in a self imposed workaholic bubble. If you're consistently working 12 hour days, you're simply allowing your employer to abuse you.
I've worked 9-5 (always flexible hours) my entire career which spans more than one decade and four employers.
That sounds awful. It seriously makes me physically mad when I think of how entitled these companies are, that they feel they can demand the vast majority of your time during the day, making you sacrifice the ability to be with your family or explore some new hobby, or just relax, so that someone else can get rich.
Spaniard here; this is absolutely not true. 3 hour lunch breaks it's a myth. May be shops in small towns and villages.
One hour break for lunch is the norm. May be two, but it's not very common.
There is an exception here: in summertime, a lot of companies reduce the working hours from 8 to 7 hours. They start at 8am and leave at 3pm. The sum of these hours must be distributed along the rest of the days of the year. So you work 7 hours in summer, and 8 and half the rest of the year. This summertime schedule comes from the days when Air conditioning systems did not exist, and literally working in Spain in the afternoon is impossible.
It's really funny to read about Spanish topics from a poorly informed journalist...
One hour break for lunch is the norm. May be two, but it's not very common.
There is an exception here: in summertime, a lot of companies reduce the working hours from 8 to 7 hours. They start at 8am and leave at 3pm. The sum of these hours must be distributed along the rest of the days of the year. So you work 7 hours in summer, and 8 and half the rest of the year. This summertime schedule comes from the days when Air conditioning systems did not exist, and literally working in Spain in the afternoon is impossible.
It's really funny to read about Spanish topics from a poorly informed journalist...
I don't know, I live in Alicante (15 years now) and know many working folks and professionals who take 2-5 off, though in the summer they will go until 3 and call it a day.
I lost the count of times that I had to explain here in UK than we Spaniards don't go home to take a nap every day at lunch time.
Nowadays this 3 hours break mainly affect the small shops instead of offices/big companies.
And, being honest, was quite useful since shops closing at 8 pm allow people doing their shopping chores when leaving the office/school/uni...
Edit: My English... U_U'
Nowadays this 3 hours break mainly affect the small shops instead of offices/big companies.
And, being honest, was quite useful since shops closing at 8 pm allow people doing their shopping chores when leaving the office/school/uni...
Edit: My English... U_U'
It's a shame that so many Brits visit Spain yet remain culturally ignorant to some things there. I think in connection to believing that Spaniards have siestas every day for hours we also casually imply that Spaniards are lazy in every regard by repeating the "mañana" quip.
To be honest where I come from a shop closing at 8pm is early.
True, the smallest ones are open between 8am and 7pm, but they're loosing market share in favor of mini-markets, which are usually open from 7am to 9-10pm.
And if that's not enough there are liquor stores and petrol stations, both of which are usually open 24/7.
True, the smallest ones are open between 8am and 7pm, but they're loosing market share in favor of mini-markets, which are usually open from 7am to 9-10pm.
And if that's not enough there are liquor stores and petrol stations, both of which are usually open 24/7.
Siesta is just a fun word to say, and all the gringos know what it means, and it sounds like a lovely way to spend a day, so that's probably why the myth is perpetuated over and over. It's just a fun conversational nugget, coupled with a bit of cultural ignorance!
This makes sense. In the village I grew up at a lot of people walked home over lunch and came back to work two hours later. This was great but with commutes it doesn't make sense.
Yeah, the people I know living in Spanish villages are usually working 40-80 Kms from home. It's not just the time, but the waste of gas and pollution from making extra trips, it's just not feasible.
I spent a month in Salamanca and fell in love with the siesta. In that fairly small town it seemed the traditional siesta rhythm was in full swing. We'd go home in the afternoon, eat a delicious lunch, take a nap, and then head back. This was only possible because home was a pretty short walk away. I found this fit with my natural night-owl tendencies and I've always wished something similar could work in the United States. Unfortunately, when your workplace is 20+ minutes from home it makes absolutely no sense. Another thing lost to modernity.
Another spaniard here, reading the article you get the impression that Spain is some kind of dictatorial country, where the government dictates which times you are allowed to work. It is not, companies have freedom to choose, unless you work for the public administration (where I lived, they work 8 to 15).
BTW I live in Germany now and still do a daily 30 mins siesta after lunch.
BTW I live in Germany now and still do a daily 30 mins siesta after lunch.
It depends on the type of work but in general it seems the most fun to have more flexibility.
In stead of starting at 6:00 one could start between 5:00 and 7:00. Then have a break between 11:00 and 13:00 for 30 min or 3 hours, whatever the fuck you want.
This is of course assuming we would allow people to enjoy life (An Utopian idea most people would fight against)
In stead of starting at 6:00 one could start between 5:00 and 7:00. Then have a break between 11:00 and 13:00 for 30 min or 3 hours, whatever the fuck you want.
This is of course assuming we would allow people to enjoy life (An Utopian idea most people would fight against)
This article is full of bullshit, prejudgements and false facts. There is probably one nap bar in the whole Spain and he had to add it to the article.
Just a note: These working hours happen just in retail.
Incorrect.
They don't happen in industrial settings (my father worked at a factory, he had a ~ 1h break). They don't happen in computer related stuff (I've seen 1h being the norm, 2h being frowned upon, and usually, you don't have a specific break and are just supposed to somehow arrive, work, eat and leave while working a reasonable amount of the time). They don't even happen in research, when I was teaching at a university our normal break was around 1h, 1h30 if we had a coffee meeting to discuss some topic afterwards.
I moved to the UK but I still know many friends from Spain that work from 9am-1pm -> lunch break -> 3pm-7pm. Which means that in reality they can end up leaving the office at 7:30pm.
By the other hand I worked for the Catalan TV for many years and they had very flexible hours and I could leave by 5pm, but it's not that usual in my experience (and that was 12 years ago).
Yeah, 2h break from 1pm to 3pm is the most I've seen.
I had a concall 2 days ago with a Spaniard from Madrid. They are leaving the office by 3pm now in summer time. That means a lot of daylight time to do whatever else you want.
>What remained is a highly distinctive national timetable not found in any other European country, where it has often been read as a peculiarly exotic form of madness
First, of all, there's nothing "mad" about it. As if the 9-5 (or 9-8) schedule religiously held everywhere, and first created for factory workers, is "rational".
>After starting work between 8 and 9 a.m., hungry workers hold out for a lunch break scheduled as late as 1:30 or 2:30. As if in compensation for this long wait
Nothing particularly strange about this either. In lots of counties people eat lunch later, or much later, than 12:00, and dinner much later than 7-8. Usually it has to do with hotter climates (which Spain, Greece, Mexico, Argentina, Middle Eastern countries, etc qualify for) and longer, sunnier, days.
>Most stores and many businesses close down until the late afternoon, before a final burst of office hours between 5:30 and 8 (or sometimes 4 to 7). Spaniards then head home at an hour when most people in other countries are cleaning up their dinner dishes, rarely getting food on the table any earlier than 10 p.m. This pushes bedtime past midnight for many.*
And that's a problem because?
First, of all, there's nothing "mad" about it. As if the 9-5 (or 9-8) schedule religiously held everywhere, and first created for factory workers, is "rational".
>After starting work between 8 and 9 a.m., hungry workers hold out for a lunch break scheduled as late as 1:30 or 2:30. As if in compensation for this long wait
Nothing particularly strange about this either. In lots of counties people eat lunch later, or much later, than 12:00, and dinner much later than 7-8. Usually it has to do with hotter climates (which Spain, Greece, Mexico, Argentina, Middle Eastern countries, etc qualify for) and longer, sunnier, days.
>Most stores and many businesses close down until the late afternoon, before a final burst of office hours between 5:30 and 8 (or sometimes 4 to 7). Spaniards then head home at an hour when most people in other countries are cleaning up their dinner dishes, rarely getting food on the table any earlier than 10 p.m. This pushes bedtime past midnight for many.*
And that's a problem because?
"Lunch break" sounds like it's paid or semi-paid; it seems a bit deceptive here. It sounds from the article like the Spanish are putting in 8-hour days, but interrupting them in the afternoon, so that instead of working 9 to 6 they work 9 to 8 or 9 to 9. Thus the streets busy until midnight, for example; this is a case of different scheduling, not lazy southerners.
I remember going to work in the small Madrid office of a private large bank in 20 or so years ago.
Being keen, I turned up at 8.30am and then waited for an hour for someone to arrive. The office was then closed and everyone turfed out from 12pm-2pm, but the working day didn't finish until around 7pm.
Being keen, I turned up at 8.30am and then waited for an hour for someone to arrive. The office was then closed and everyone turfed out from 12pm-2pm, but the working day didn't finish until around 7pm.
Maybe you mean it was closed 13:00-15:00 or 14:00-16:00? 12:00-14:00 seems a very non-spanish time for a lunch break. Most restaurants are not even open during most of that time!
You may be right - it was twenty years ago :-)
I did find myself at a bit of a loss as to what to do after bolting my lunch in an anglo-saxon 45 minutes or so.
I did find myself at a bit of a loss as to what to do after bolting my lunch in an anglo-saxon 45 minutes or so.
I have seen same thing in India. In small towns most of the markets will close down for few hrs in afternoon. In summers to avoid heat and in winter to sit in sun. Again with globalization I think this is going away in India too.
What a shitty article, it is not even for Spain, it is a new initiative from Catalan government to rationalize the daily schedule for their inhabitants.
Catalonia is an region of Spain.
Catalonia is an region of Spain.
I wonder how many of those important business decisions/discussions are made during the lunch breaks.
I've worked for two different tech companies in Barcelona, neither had lunch breaks longer than an hour.
When I moved from the UK I was shocked that 9-5 was not the norm, in both places the schedule was more 9-7 with the same amount of lunch time as in the UK and far more pressure to stay on later than 7.
When I moved from the UK I was shocked that 9-5 was not the norm, in both places the schedule was more 9-7 with the same amount of lunch time as in the UK and far more pressure to stay on later than 7.
I wonder why some foreigners seem to be unable to grasp the simple concept of different climates...
I have a 1 hour lunch break, and nobody take 'siestas' in my city regularly.
I have a 1 hour lunch break, and nobody take 'siestas' in my city regularly.
Title says Spain, but it really is about Catalonia.
Goodbye.
That's separatist propaganda: Catalonia, a Spanish region where separatists are ruling and expect to do a referendum against the rule of law in October so the region can exit Spain and the European Union and be "free", is "better" than the "lazy Spain". Rationale: in Spain there is no such thing as generalized three-hour lunch break. In fact, most industries have short lunch pause (e.g. 7 to 15:30h), and most offices take just one hour (e.g. 9 to 18h). That's only true for shops (e.g. 9:30..13:30h and 17..21h), and that's how shops work almost everywhere, not a specific thing of Spain.
I forgot to add that Catalans, myself included, have a lot to learn from other Spanish regions: e.g. in Madrid there is commercial freedom, so shops can chose when they can open, without the permission of the feudal^W local government.
I forgot to add that Catalans, myself included, have a lot to learn from other Spanish regions: e.g. in Madrid there is commercial freedom, so shops can chose when they can open, without the permission of the feudal^W local government.
> separatist propaganda
This breaks the HN guideline against calling names in arguments as well as the injunction against flamebait and flamewars. Predictably, it started another internecine political flamewar. We warned you about this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14473747. We don't want flamewars of any kind on HN, and will eventually have to ban you if you don't fix this.
This breaks the HN guideline against calling names in arguments as well as the injunction against flamebait and flamewars. Predictably, it started another internecine political flamewar. We warned you about this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14473747. We don't want flamewars of any kind on HN, and will eventually have to ban you if you don't fix this.
Oletros(1)
Also, all changing the timezone would do is give us useless light early in the morning and less light in the evening to go out and play sports, hang out in the park etc. People would still eat at the same time regardless. It gets dark at 6pm in the winter and 10pm in the summer. It's not exactly crazy.