An 80s Girl Talks About Computers: A Reminiscence(medium.com)
medium.com
An 80s Girl Talks About Computers: A Reminiscence
https://medium.com/@wordsandcode/-2653446e40ae
69 comments
This is a very important point and I agree, but the question posed by the article is why was there a sudden decline in women in CS. Before 1984 they were well represented and enrollment literally crashed to levels lower than they were 15 years before.
We can't say systemic sexism caused the crash in enrollment, which happened very suddenly. It is certainly a factor, and probably a bigger factor over time explaining sustained low enrollment.
A snap drop in enrollment is more likely due to a shift in the culture somewhere. Someone pointed out that the game market crashed the year prior, that was probably a factor. Was it Reagan? Was it the number of high profile movies in which nerds were stereotyped?
It is hard to say and a very interesting question.
We can't say systemic sexism caused the crash in enrollment, which happened very suddenly. It is certainly a factor, and probably a bigger factor over time explaining sustained low enrollment.
A snap drop in enrollment is more likely due to a shift in the culture somewhere. Someone pointed out that the game market crashed the year prior, that was probably a factor. Was it Reagan? Was it the number of high profile movies in which nerds were stereotyped?
It is hard to say and a very interesting question.
My uneducated guess on this is that the early 1980s is when computing went from an academic and intellectual pursuit to something where you could make giant piles of money. If (for various social and possibly psychological/biological reasons) men have a higher tendency to flood into highly-remunerated fields regardless of underlying interest/capability, you might see participation looking something like:
1970s:
20,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution
M: 10,000 (50%)
W: 10,000 (50%)
1990s:
200,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution + 800,000 men primarily focused on money
M: 900,000 (90%)
W: 100,000 (10%)
Edit: this theory doesn't deny the argument that CS as a field became particularly uninviting to women over this time period as well, but the causality goes: men enter field for the $ => increasingly skewed gender ratio => male-centric culture develops => even women "nerds" stop joining because environment has become unfamiliar at best and hostile at worst
1970s:
20,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution
M: 10,000 (50%)
W: 10,000 (50%)
1990s:
200,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution + 800,000 men primarily focused on money
M: 900,000 (90%)
W: 100,000 (10%)
Edit: this theory doesn't deny the argument that CS as a field became particularly uninviting to women over this time period as well, but the causality goes: men enter field for the $ => increasingly skewed gender ratio => male-centric culture develops => even women "nerds" stop joining because environment has become unfamiliar at best and hostile at worst
I think the boom in sales of home computers could be an explanation.
See: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/articles/culture/total-share.med...
Prior to anyone having a computer, your suitability for getting in CS would be the math classes you took, which had some "equality of access".
Once the sales boom happened, anyone with a computer probably had a large advantage to anyone that did not.
If that was the driver, though, it would imply some pattern where these computers were less available, or less appealing, to young women.
See: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/articles/culture/total-share.med...
Prior to anyone having a computer, your suitability for getting in CS would be the math classes you took, which had some "equality of access".
Once the sales boom happened, anyone with a computer probably had a large advantage to anyone that did not.
If that was the driver, though, it would imply some pattern where these computers were less available, or less appealing, to young women.
That's sort of the argument she's arguing against. Which is that, starting with home computers, guys were more inclined to adopt them as a hobby thing well pre-college. And, once that happened, if you arrived as a freshman and had never really touched a computer (and at one point that was probably literally true for many) it's challenging to go into CS if your classmates have been playing with this stuff for years.
I don't know. Her examples are unconvincing. That they maybe advertised to girls more could just as easily mean, the boys are already buying them so let's focus on the untapped market.
The common theory around early exposure seems plausible to me. [ADDED: Together with the fact that it's supposed to be this all consuming thing.] I've read equally well-written articles by woman nodding their heads. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woma...
Unis could deal with it to a degree with intro to computing everything but CS has emerged as an almost unique major (music is certainly another) where showing up at college saying you want to try this computer thing is considered odd.
No one expects a chemical engineer to have done much more than really enjoyed their high school chemistry class. EDIT for clarity: Demonstrated "passion" for chemistry isn't really a pre-req.
I don't know. Her examples are unconvincing. That they maybe advertised to girls more could just as easily mean, the boys are already buying them so let's focus on the untapped market.
The common theory around early exposure seems plausible to me. [ADDED: Together with the fact that it's supposed to be this all consuming thing.] I've read equally well-written articles by woman nodding their heads. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woma...
Unis could deal with it to a degree with intro to computing everything but CS has emerged as an almost unique major (music is certainly another) where showing up at college saying you want to try this computer thing is considered odd.
No one expects a chemical engineer to have done much more than really enjoyed their high school chemistry class. EDIT for clarity: Demonstrated "passion" for chemistry isn't really a pre-req.
I think that is an excellent hypothesis!
I graduated high school in 1984, and I can't remember one girl in junior high or high school that was interested in computers in any way, although both of the areas with computers that were set up in classrooms were put there by female teachers. I don't know if the lack of interest was due to teachers like the author had (although we had no computer-related classes in high school), if it was a social thing, or if there just wasn't interest there to begin with. I was heads-down learning to program and soaking up information - I wasn't attuned to others around me. I didn't understand why everyone else wasn't this passionate about it. Obviously, social interaction wasn't my strong suit going through school.
I had access to TRS-80 Level I's, and Apple ][e's. My parents bought me a TRS-80 Color Computer, and I purchased an assembler cartridge and was off to the races. I look back fondly as that fog of ignorance slowly lifted and I realized what these incredible machines could do.
I remember maybe two or three women in my computer science classes in college. That changed when I got my first job (in a university setting, where I'm still employed). Developers here are roughly 60/40 male/female. System admins and networking personnel skew wildly male.
I had access to TRS-80 Level I's, and Apple ][e's. My parents bought me a TRS-80 Color Computer, and I purchased an assembler cartridge and was off to the races. I look back fondly as that fog of ignorance slowly lifted and I realized what these incredible machines could do.
I remember maybe two or three women in my computer science classes in college. That changed when I got my first job (in a university setting, where I'm still employed). Developers here are roughly 60/40 male/female. System admins and networking personnel skew wildly male.
I also graduated high school in 1984. By that time, even my small-town American school had a room full of TRS-80s (cassette tape storage!) and a semester-long class in BASIC.
I remember the class being evenly split between boys and girls, and nobody finding that remarkable--some of us even had moms or aunts who worked with punchcards and mainframes.
The top students in the class were the same diligent girls who prevailed in the honors math and English classes; again, not provoking comment. The understanding was that we were acquiring practical skills for a drab something vaguely understood as "business," so intense interest in programming would have seemed very strange.
By the early Nineties, I noticed that programming had obtained this alienating macho reputation, which I find ironic considering how much GUIs made it so much more accessible, and the Web made it so much more interesting. I haven't read a thorough treatment of this period of computing history--any suggestions?
I remember the class being evenly split between boys and girls, and nobody finding that remarkable--some of us even had moms or aunts who worked with punchcards and mainframes.
The top students in the class were the same diligent girls who prevailed in the honors math and English classes; again, not provoking comment. The understanding was that we were acquiring practical skills for a drab something vaguely understood as "business," so intense interest in programming would have seemed very strange.
By the early Nineties, I noticed that programming had obtained this alienating macho reputation, which I find ironic considering how much GUIs made it so much more accessible, and the Web made it so much more interesting. I haven't read a thorough treatment of this period of computing history--any suggestions?
I think the difference might have to do with whether or not a class was being taught vs. simple self-discovery. Making no judgements, but it's been my experience that men are more likely to develop on projects outside of work. I have no idea why, maybe it's just a statistical aberration, but that's what I've seen through the years.
I had the exact opposite experience, I graduated in 84 as well. Our first computer classes were nearly 50/50 male female in high school. That changed in college.
A previous HN discussion on this topic pointed to the fact that women in developing countries embrace STEM more than those in developed countries. I believe we'll see more women in STEM when financially, it makes little sense not to.
Judging how America is quickly becoming a Service Industry country, and how necessary a dual income has become, that time may come soon.
Judging how America is quickly becoming a Service Industry country, and how necessary a dual income has become, that time may come soon.
I found this an interesting read. The higher level math teacher in my high school was a woman and she also taught the nascent "computer" class (which was BASIC programming on Teletypes that dialed in at 110 Baud to a mainframe)
I found myself in friendly competition with women in both Algebra II and Calculus. Our high school produced a number of women engineers and computer science majors as well.
Is that correlation ? causation? Or is it just modelling? I don't know. I watched my kids grow up and saw that they took cues about what they were expected to be able to do from the environment around them. I don't think there is much debate that people try to live up to the expectations put on them by people they look up to.
So to the extent that her message is "We should mindfully decide to have expectations that anyone, regardless of gender, can excel in STEM." I really can't see any harm in that.
I found myself in friendly competition with women in both Algebra II and Calculus. Our high school produced a number of women engineers and computer science majors as well.
Is that correlation ? causation? Or is it just modelling? I don't know. I watched my kids grow up and saw that they took cues about what they were expected to be able to do from the environment around them. I don't think there is much debate that people try to live up to the expectations put on them by people they look up to.
So to the extent that her message is "We should mindfully decide to have expectations that anyone, regardless of gender, can excel in STEM." I really can't see any harm in that.
> The other thing he liked to tell us, though, was that girls shouldn’t bother taking math, because we were just going to be housewives anyway.
This, this this. US society took a socially conservative swing in the 80s as peak women's lib began erroding.
This, this this. US society took a socially conservative swing in the 80s as peak women's lib began erroding.
To be honest, whilst I don't want to take anything away from the author's story, and I accept that different social expectations would've played a big part, I'd suspect that the main difference was because of gaming culture.
Perhaps some have forgotten, but the gateway drug for many people getting into computers was games, especially in the 80s. Gaming culture at the time was heavily skewed towards boys and young men. I'm sure there were plenty of girls and women who played games too, but on average it seemed to be more of a male activity. Current gaming culture is much more diverse, so don't get things twisted, I'm talking about how things were back then. I think if you can explain the major influences on the gamer diversity landscape back then you can mostly explain the computing diversity landscape right now.
Perhaps some have forgotten, but the gateway drug for many people getting into computers was games, especially in the 80s. Gaming culture at the time was heavily skewed towards boys and young men. I'm sure there were plenty of girls and women who played games too, but on average it seemed to be more of a male activity. Current gaming culture is much more diverse, so don't get things twisted, I'm talking about how things were back then. I think if you can explain the major influences on the gamer diversity landscape back then you can mostly explain the computing diversity landscape right now.
If you accept that the early-mid 80s boy teenager became comfortable with computers more than the girls did thesis, gaming is almost certainly part of that. Gateway drug and all that as you say.
I got into computers a wee bit earlier myself but you just need to watch War Games for an anecdotal example.
I got into computers a wee bit earlier myself but you just need to watch War Games for an anecdotal example.
Is it bothering anyone else that the article itself has no apostrophe in the title, and the HN post added one in the wrong place?
From about 1983 onwards, home computers were commonplace in the UK. This was mainly the Sinclair Spectrum (a device that, perhaps, caused a mini industrial revolution in the UK by teaching a generation how to code (and how to hack hardware)), with a smattering of Acorns, BBC Micros (also an Acorn, really) and Commodore 64s.
I learned Z80 assembler and built some add-on boards on a Spectrum and never looked back.
I learned Z80 assembler and built some add-on boards on a Spectrum and never looked back.
This article makes it even more interesting that math majors have risen in terms of female distribution at the same time CS has dropped.
It may be worth noting that, at a lot of schools CS was (is?) part of the math department as opposed to engineering. It's plausible to me that as CS became more about programming (and brought a lot of associated cultural baggage with it), people who were in CS essentially for pure math reasons switched out of CS.
I wonder whether there was a point at which computer science departments began to become independent of math departments, and when that occurred?
It seems to vary a lot by school for historical reasons though I haven't studied the subject. Some schools it's been connected to electrical engineering forever. Other schools it grew out of math. There are areas of EE that have very little to do with computers, especially decades ago, so I suspect that a lot of it is historical happenstance.
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The author discusses how people saying "math isn't for girls" was part of why she didn't go into a computational field.
I'm surprised there isn't more discussion in the comments here of how women are discouraged from entering tech by the assertion and defense of the notion that "women are biologically unsuited for software development".
I'm surprised there isn't more discussion in the comments here of how women are discouraged from entering tech by the assertion and defense of the notion that "women are biologically unsuited for software development".
dominotw(1)
>I listened to (and played) jazz, often the kind inspired by Lord of the Rings
I want to know more about this part.
I want to know more about this part.
haha, I've encountered this. it's a trip! Check out the free samples:
https://smile.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-Vol-1/dp/B00OZTPQZG/
https://smile.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-Vol-1/dp/B00OZTPQZG/
This was something my uncle was into.
I don't think I've ever met a more interesting group of people than those that attended his funeral, including s professional APL developer that was in a filk group with him.
I don't think I've ever met a more interesting group of people than those that attended his funeral, including s professional APL developer that was in a filk group with him.
I hazard a guess that the author is somewhat atypical for an 80s girl. She certainly seemed to be comfortable with a lot of activities that would draw scorn and condemnation from the popular kids in the 80s. Not giving in to peer pressure is very hard for teenagers. I don't know for certain, but I suspect it's even harder for girls than boys. Boys seem more willing to go it alone if they have to.
This is mostly from my own life experience as a computer nerd during the late 80s and early 90s. You get shunned by anybody even remotely popular. This is really tough during middle school since you become bully bait but perseverance pays off in the end. In some ways I had it easier since I lived in a neighborhood that had no kids my age (or within 3 year of my age), so being a loner and an outcast wasn't a new situation.
This is mostly from my own life experience as a computer nerd during the late 80s and early 90s. You get shunned by anybody even remotely popular. This is really tough during middle school since you become bully bait but perseverance pays off in the end. In some ways I had it easier since I lived in a neighborhood that had no kids my age (or within 3 year of my age), so being a loner and an outcast wasn't a new situation.
The darnedest thing about stereotypes and generalizations is that everyone is atypical in some way or another.
Sure, but when you are atypical because you are an 80s girl who is into computers it becomes hard to use your experiences to determine why there is a large gender disparity in computer relented fields.
It's hard to draw conclusions about a population by only inspecting the outliers, you get lots of noise in the data.
It's hard to draw conclusions about a population by only inspecting the outliers, you get lots of noise in the data.
I don't know... if you're an 80s girl who got into computers despite lots of girls not getting into computers perhaps your experiences, and the hurdles you faced, are actually more interesting and relevant than the more "typical" answers.
That’s a very interesting hypothesis. It needs a little expansion to address the reported “suddenly in 1984” aspect. I wonder if, around that time, there was a change in many colleges that required more advanced math (or some other topic) where HS teacher biases are stronger (or more impactful). Very neat read.
I've heard that in the 80s, that at the same time many more people started wanting to study comp sci (due to the home computer boom) many faculty were also leaving for industry. This led to a shortage of teaching professors.
Due to this, many schools started only accepting the top tier students for their programs. If HS teacher biases were hurting women's performance in mathematics and such, this would be reflected in their lower participation in college comp sci programs
Due to this, many schools started only accepting the top tier students for their programs. If HS teacher biases were hurting women's performance in mathematics and such, this would be reflected in their lower participation in college comp sci programs
1984 was about when the entire home-computer game industry collapsed, and presumably, many people's dreams of riches.
That may have been a factor but it don't think it fully explains the sudden "snap" downward to levels lower than 20 years before. Kudos though for actually addressing the question of what caused the sudden change, rather than just focusing on the general climate of 1984 for nerds.
An interesting thought, however I would argue that the vast majority of programming jobs at the time were not with game companies but at a bank or insurance company maintaining some LOB app.
Indeed but writing a game was something you could do in school. I know I was inspired by news reports of teenagers getting rich from games they'd written.
Doesn't speak to gender bias, but just plain access to computers was a big factor in the 80's. Non technical parents might be hard to talk into the expense. Among my largish circle of friends, only 2 of us had home computers. And, if your high school had a nice system with various development environments (C, Pascal, Fortran, etc), you had options even those with home computers didn't.
If you had a computer in the 80s you at least had BASIC. Higher level compilers tended to be business tools (with business prices), but near everything shipped with BASIC. Often burned into the ROM.
The exception, appearing late in the decade, was the Mac. The Mac had something better: Hypercard.
The exception, appearing late in the decade, was the Mac. The Mac had something better: Hypercard.
Yes, but that's what I mean. Having access to something besides BASIC gave some people a leg up. It was also fairly common to not have any persistent storage, which made the BASIC much less useful. You could buy it, of course, but it wasn't cheap. Similar for printers.
Floppy drives weren't that uncommon. Or even those horrible audio cassette tape systems. It depends a bit on the era I guess. If you're talking mid 70s Altair type computers then compiling a program practically required access to someone with an EE degree. By the late 70s though you're looking at stuff like the Apple II and the Commodore 64 which were usually sold with some sort of mass storage option.
Only knowing BASIC wasn't nearly the handicap it would become either. Most people were in the same boat.
As for the price, that's true of everything computer related in the 80s. If you were buying a computer in the first place you were more likely to be able to scrounge together a couple hundred more bucks for the disk drive and printer.
Only knowing BASIC wasn't nearly the handicap it would become either. Most people were in the same boat.
As for the price, that's true of everything computer related in the 80s. If you were buying a computer in the first place you were more likely to be able to scrounge together a couple hundred more bucks for the disk drive and printer.
I'm speaking from my own experience, so perhaps biased. I felt my access to a minicomputer put me way ahead of my peers. And many did have parents that paid for a computer, but not for the tape drive, or floppy.
A good read. Not sure about the conclusion.
My memory of that time in the UK was that being "into" computers marked you as a greasy-haired "Anorak" (maybe that translates to "Dirty Mac", in American. I suppose the slur is based on stereotyping computer enthusiasts who would often peruse computer magazines at the newsagent, rather like some other "enthusiasts" who might be browsing other, usually graphic, magazines, possibly wearing a "Mac").
Though the term is "Nerd", now, and it's become possibly respectable, in those times, especially in high school, it really wasn't cool at at all, and seemed to attract more derision that being into StartTrek or even D&D.
I don't think the majority of girls wanted to be seen dead in such circles, though not because of "bro" culture, far from it. girls were more than welcome.
Possibly things have changed now, I don't know, but I'll note also that back then there didn't seem to be much discussion of gender ratios in either industry or in education.
I don't know if that's because of heightened general awareness now, or simply that anything IT has become even more lucrative, and (probably as a result) much cooler. What is the gender ratio in coal mining?
My memory of that time in the UK was that being "into" computers marked you as a greasy-haired "Anorak" (maybe that translates to "Dirty Mac", in American. I suppose the slur is based on stereotyping computer enthusiasts who would often peruse computer magazines at the newsagent, rather like some other "enthusiasts" who might be browsing other, usually graphic, magazines, possibly wearing a "Mac").
Though the term is "Nerd", now, and it's become possibly respectable, in those times, especially in high school, it really wasn't cool at at all, and seemed to attract more derision that being into StartTrek or even D&D.
I don't think the majority of girls wanted to be seen dead in such circles, though not because of "bro" culture, far from it. girls were more than welcome.
Possibly things have changed now, I don't know, but I'll note also that back then there didn't seem to be much discussion of gender ratios in either industry or in education.
I don't know if that's because of heightened general awareness now, or simply that anything IT has become even more lucrative, and (probably as a result) much cooler. What is the gender ratio in coal mining?
> Though the term is "nerd", now, and it's become possibly respectable
I don't think this is true. I think that there are "nerdy" things that have become trendy (like thick framed glasses, playing retro video games and music, or being smart), but its still not cool to be a true nerd. (or maybe "nerd" is being redefined)
See this Portlandia sketch that explains my point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Jbz4c_WKA
I don't think this is true. I think that there are "nerdy" things that have become trendy (like thick framed glasses, playing retro video games and music, or being smart), but its still not cool to be a true nerd. (or maybe "nerd" is being redefined)
See this Portlandia sketch that explains my point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Jbz4c_WKA
Me last night: So I've been working through some math books for fun...
People I was with: Wait, go back. You're doing math for fun?
All claiming to be nerds, all hanging out at a local barcade (trivia night, hobby of mine). Nerd culture is cool, being a nerd is not. They do appreciate that I can answer about 80% of the trivia questions myself, though.
People I was with: Wait, go back. You're doing math for fun?
All claiming to be nerds, all hanging out at a local barcade (trivia night, hobby of mine). Nerd culture is cool, being a nerd is not. They do appreciate that I can answer about 80% of the trivia questions myself, though.
In my memory, by 1995 in high school computers were still a weird nerd subculture thing. There were a few non-nerds who had discovered PC games like DOOM, and that created interesting socialization opportunities for nerds.
No girls though. Just the few you met out in the BBS scene.
No girls though. Just the few you met out in the BBS scene.
Funny you mention the BBS scene. There was a period (probably late 80s) when I was pretty involved with a large local commercial BBS. And we did a bit of socializing together. I imagine it skewed male but my recollection is that it wasn't overwhelmingly male.
I wonder if it being a commercial BBS had something to do with the demographics?
The underground/hacker/warez boards were pretty male.
The underground/hacker/warez boards were pretty male.
Maybe. This was a subscription local BBS as opposed to a commercial service like CIS. But the main board wasn't really an underground/hacker/warez demographic. As I recall it was a pretty civilized atmosphere. Also was definitely post-teenager demographic.
The author's experience strongly echoes my mother's experience getting a chemistry masters in the 1960s. One of her professors outright told her at the beginning of the semester that she would not do well in the sciences because she was a woman. That semester she actually tutored a group of men who were in the class, and all of those men received higher grades than her (she got a C-). These men told my mother they would help her fight the professor to get the grade she deserved, but she let it go.
A few years later, my mother met other women who had the same professor and had the same stories to tell about him. One of those women told my mother, "Because no one is fighting him, he thinks he can just keep doing it." For the next forty years, my mother never passed up another fight, excelled in the sciences, and is a respected professor of nursing today in her 70s giving talks around the globe.
When I attended the same university in the 90s, I told some friends about my mother's experience. They laughed and said it couldn't be the same guy, but their professor of chemistry announced on the first day that women were inherently incapable of doing well in his class. I'm thankful that today such a statement would get recorded, go viral online, and force dinosaurs like that into early retirement.
A few years later, my mother met other women who had the same professor and had the same stories to tell about him. One of those women told my mother, "Because no one is fighting him, he thinks he can just keep doing it." For the next forty years, my mother never passed up another fight, excelled in the sciences, and is a respected professor of nursing today in her 70s giving talks around the globe.
When I attended the same university in the 90s, I told some friends about my mother's experience. They laughed and said it couldn't be the same guy, but their professor of chemistry announced on the first day that women were inherently incapable of doing well in his class. I'm thankful that today such a statement would get recorded, go viral online, and force dinosaurs like that into early retirement.
I've been to two mid-tier universities within the last decade, and each one had a professor who would straight up say on the first day of class that they would fail any women, because women shouldn't be in science. One was a Biology professor (they were a young earth creationist to boot), the other was a computer science prof.
I'm sure the laser focused fury of social media makes universities more wary of having people like this on staff, but still most people don't want to get caught up in that sort of fight. They were quite old though, so there's hope for the future.
I'm sure the laser focused fury of social media makes universities more wary of having people like this on staff, but still most people don't want to get caught up in that sort of fight. They were quite old though, so there's hope for the future.
That's so blatant that I have a hard time believing it.
If that's really true, it's a jackpot discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen, and I hope it happens sooner rather than later. Completely unacceptable.
If that's really true, it's a jackpot discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen, and I hope it happens sooner rather than later. Completely unacceptable.
> That's so blatant that I have a hard time believing it.
That's what I thought about those videos of guys following a woman around as she walked down the streets of New York City minding her own business.[0] I had never witnessed that sort of thing and thought, "There's no way this goes on that often or I'd see it." And yet, dozens of female friends confirmed that it happens all the time. I was like, "Why have you never mentioned this?" They just said it happens too often and there's not a lot you can do about it, plus half the time other people don't believe you.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
That's what I thought about those videos of guys following a woman around as she walked down the streets of New York City minding her own business.[0] I had never witnessed that sort of thing and thought, "There's no way this goes on that often or I'd see it." And yet, dozens of female friends confirmed that it happens all the time. I was like, "Why have you never mentioned this?" They just said it happens too often and there's not a lot you can do about it, plus half the time other people don't believe you.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
Tenure is a powerful force. It makes professors band together, because they know if the concept is weakened for political reasons, any one of them could be next, especially in this era of universities looking to replace tenured faculty with non-tenured grad students.
Within the last decade, in the United States? And they straight up said they'd fail any woman in the class? That's awful. That's so much worse than I thought things were these days.
I'm the first person in my family to even graduate high school, so I don't have any family stories. But I had a female professor that announced to the whole class that she strives to make sure no men get above a C in her classroom. And that was around 2004. It makes me wonder what kind of articles will be written 30 years from now, based on what I read is happening on campuses.
I feel like the bad experiences probably stand out more than the average. My wife got her masters around 2012, and one of her teachers would discuss political topics then participate in heckling anyone with stances that weren't completely left leaning. Even defending people with these views made you a target.
But all of the other teachers were pretty standard.
But all of the other teachers were pretty standard.
This is a point I think needs to made more often. Bad things get way more attention and I think people on both the left and the right, both social justice people and free speech people, have a bias to exaggerate the extent that these things are happening. Sometimes people just need to take a breath and relax.
My mother had almost the same experience getting a math degree in the 50s. "Women don't belong in math" or some such garbage from a professor.
I wonder how your mother's professor reconciled his personal misogyny with the fact that by 1960 Gerti Cory, Marie Curie, and Marie's daughter Irene had all won Nobel Prizes (and Rosalind Franklin would have won one in 1962 had she not died four years earlier).
As an opposite interesting story from another part of the world around same time. When I was just a few years old my father (a
highschool chemistry teacher with a research background) was telling me stories about how how himself and his colleague which was a female had the best results preparing students for chemistry olympiads although their highschool, an "industrial" was one of the last choices for students, so it was usually the last in everything. Yet they managed to prepare some of the top students.
This was during late communist era and just after it. I grew up with nothing close to racism, sexism or anything close.
Nothing about computers back then was social.
There was no social component. Programs done by yourself, at a keypunch. Output read by yourself. Hard to study in groups. You can't really have a debate about the sign bit.
Pre-wed majors were social.. Comp sci was not
Pre-wed majors were social.. Comp sci was not
I was a CS student at the same time as the author. Undergraduate programming was done in rooms with multiple terminals so it could be social if you wanted it to be.
This articles touches on an interesting subject, whether female-targeted advertising and gender-based 'cultural' events are really the best way to recruit more women - or the lack of which is why the divide exists in the first place.
There's always this implied assumption, such as in the Planet Money podcast she referenced, that the cause of the problem is obvious and known. But if it was that simple we would have likely made a lot more progress with the issue by now.
There's always this implied assumption, such as in the Planet Money podcast she referenced, that the cause of the problem is obvious and known. But if it was that simple we would have likely made a lot more progress with the issue by now.
I've heard this from a number of other women: an influential, well respected person promoted a divisive opinion among teens for a long time. The effect was subtle and perhaps unintentional, but pervasive; young women decided they were not smart enough or strong enough to work in the field they wanted.
This illustrates to me how important it is to send the right message to kids. Subtle divisiveness is dangerous among kids and teens.