Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers(hackaday.com)
hackaday.com
Lu Ban's axe and working with your Chinese suppliers
https://hackaday.com/2017/08/30/lu-bans-axe-and-working-with-your-chinese-suppliers/
105 comments
She was calling out common traits for people then trying to label them Chinese, and readers, like you, suddenly feel "interesting"...
> how overseas Chinese students in America all copy each others work to get answers?
Student colluding is any special? I was college ta before, I do not think there is ever a class students do not copy each other.
> how overseas Chinese students in America all copy each others work to get answers?
Student colluding is any special? I was college ta before, I do not think there is ever a class students do not copy each other.
I speak a bit of Chinese and have Chinese friends who were studying in Germany and one time I got to sit in on their copying session. I was quite surprised when a lot of Chinese showed up whom I'd never seen before.
Turns out some of them were seniors who had brought their homework from previous years. It wasn't like everyone just copied the work either, there was plenty of discussion about the points they had trouble understanding. (But my Chinese wasn't quite good enough to pick up on most of it.)
So if I may generalize from my anecdote, I'd say that Chinese students colluding is special in that they form a tightly knit community abroad, helping each other out.
Turns out some of them were seniors who had brought their homework from previous years. It wasn't like everyone just copied the work either, there was plenty of discussion about the points they had trouble understanding. (But my Chinese wasn't quite good enough to pick up on most of it.)
So if I may generalize from my anecdote, I'd say that Chinese students colluding is special in that they form a tightly knit community abroad, helping each other out.
One of the major benefits of being in a fraternity in my university was that the fraternities and sororities all had every homework and test most of the teachers at the school had ever released. I tests on the hardest math teacher in the school going back 36 years. I got asked a question on his final that he asked on his first and didn't ask in-between.
If he had spent more time teaching instead of coming up with insanely hard test questions we wouldn't have had that huge of a back file on him.
We used them for study sessions.
I can only imagine they are all online now.
If he had spent more time teaching instead of coming up with insanely hard test questions we wouldn't have had that huge of a back file on him.
We used them for study sessions.
I can only imagine they are all online now.
Again, is that special to the Chinese? Isn't US history filled with examples of foreigners forming tight-knit communities based on nationality or ethnicity?
My only other experience with large groups of foreign students from the same country was when I stayed in China as an exchange student and met a lot of Pakistanis.
They definitely hung out with each other more often, but they didn't seem to actually study much together. I had a few email me with questions on the same exercise, so at least those three hadn't exchanged notes.
Of course there might have been some Pakistani-only homework sessions I was simply never invited to, but I don't think that was the case.
They definitely hung out with each other more often, but they didn't seem to actually study much together. I had a few email me with questions on the same exercise, so at least those three hadn't exchanged notes.
Of course there might have been some Pakistani-only homework sessions I was simply never invited to, but I don't think that was the case.
There's a difference between some students going that way for whatever reason -vs- copying work being absolutely normal and generally expecting that this is the way to go. There are many articles talking about it if you google. Some connect it to "you advance to a university or stay rural with your family forever" situation, some with other factors.
No, Chinese stidents, as claimed in another post, were taught to respect hierarchy. Their colluding is the result that it's a working way of game the system.
But is there anything special?
Gaming the system is the human nature.
But is there anything special?
Gaming the system is the human nature.
Since we are on the topic of idiom, this one rings true: “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down”. Unless you’re the boss of the company you rarely stand to profit from problem solving or creative thinking — and usually speaking up will be detrimental to you in some way.
Are American companies that different? The few places I've worked software engineers didn't get bonuses, only the people in sales did. Software engineers are seen as a resource.
Are American companies that different? The few places I've worked software engineers didn't get bonuses, only the people in sales did. Software engineers are seen as a resource.
It may not be bonuses exactly, but pointing to initiatives you've started that were adopted by the company, or problems you've found and fixed, is good ammunition when angling for a raise or promotion in Western companies. I have a feeling the bigger problem is keeping someone up the management tree from you from stealing the credit (and depending on how many levels of management there are, at least some of that will likely happen, and that's no necessarily a bad thing, managers are judged by the accomplishments of the people under them).
This article makes it sound like China in fundamentally different in that respect.
This article makes it sound like China in fundamentally different in that respect.
Depends where you work? Yearly bonuses seem pretty common in Silicon Valley. (Or other compensation like stock options.)
It varies a lot; I've met SWEs that tripled their pay by switching jobs.
My starting pay was more than double that of someone of similar talent to myself who ended up at a different company.
My lowest offer coming out of college was a $30k 1 year contract in 2005. Needless to say I didn't accept that one.
My starting pay was more than double that of someone of similar talent to myself who ended up at a different company.
My lowest offer coming out of college was a $30k 1 year contract in 2005. Needless to say I didn't accept that one.
> Are American companies that different? The few places I've worked software engineers didn't get bonuses, only the people in sales did. Software engineers are seen as a resource.
People in sales don't get a bonus because they're not viewed as a resource, they get a bonus because they hit a sales target for eg the year and their pay is often determined in part through sales goals. All employees are generally viewed as a resource by management.
It's not uncommon for software engineers to get an annual bonus, that's particularly true if things are going well and it's also commonly true for any higher value employees (software engineers commonly earn 2x to 4x the median income in the US).
People in sales don't get a bonus because they're not viewed as a resource, they get a bonus because they hit a sales target for eg the year and their pay is often determined in part through sales goals. All employees are generally viewed as a resource by management.
It's not uncommon for software engineers to get an annual bonus, that's particularly true if things are going well and it's also commonly true for any higher value employees (software engineers commonly earn 2x to 4x the median income in the US).
Two NYC startups I've worked at have bonuses in the contracts. 10/20% based on performance with modifiers each way.
Not getting a bonus is a bit different from actually being punished for creative thinking.
Are American companies that different?
There's a little more creative thinking in American companies, but people are still people. Which means you need to tread very carefully or you will quickly acquire an almost invariably fatal reputation as "not a team player".
There's a little more creative thinking in American companies, but people are still people. Which means you need to tread very carefully or you will quickly acquire an almost invariably fatal reputation as "not a team player".
Companies I've worked for treat engineers very well, and good engineers are highlighted and fast-tracked for promotions.
Interesting to see the _very_ strong parallels to Japanese culture here.
For everyone arguing about whether this is true of all Chinese culture, of course there is innovative thinking in China, Wu is simply pointing out that in places where people aren't getting paid to innovate but rather are there to do a 9-5 job, there is little (and, in many cases, negative) incentive culturally to think outside the box and push the envelope. Don't expect that your contractor is going to go the extra mile for you. Getting specifications right and driving the production process are on you.
For everyone arguing about whether this is true of all Chinese culture, of course there is innovative thinking in China, Wu is simply pointing out that in places where people aren't getting paid to innovate but rather are there to do a 9-5 job, there is little (and, in many cases, negative) incentive culturally to think outside the box and push the envelope. Don't expect that your contractor is going to go the extra mile for you. Getting specifications right and driving the production process are on you.
And, for that matter, Germany.
This culture isn't bad and works reasonably well in a lot of places.
(not my thing though)
This culture isn't bad and works reasonably well in a lot of places.
(not my thing though)
I don't think people half assing 9-5 jobs they have no interest in is unique to Chinese culture. It's actually a pretty universal thing in every country I've lived in.
> places where people aren't getting paid to innovate but rather are there to do a 9-5 job, there is little (and, in many cases, negative) incentive culturally to think outside the box and push the envelope
That's pretty much every country, including the US. Even many Silicon Valley companies are this way.
That's pretty much every country, including the US. Even many Silicon Valley companies are this way.
> If you’d showed your axe to Edison he’d either have stolen the design or declared it a menace and tried to run you out of business so he could sell more saws
LOL... best part of the article. Good writing in general.
LOL... best part of the article. Good writing in general.
On the subject of manufacturing in China, everyone seems to be saying the same thing, namely that you get exactly what you ask for, without any input or suggestion from the manufacturer, even in the presence of obvious flaws in your original design.
This hasn't been my experience. I manufacture small metal objects in China, that are not very complex (no electronics, etc.) but I get good inputs from manufacturers. For the packaging for example, we designed cases and envelopes with a manufacturer, and they came up with several ideas that we tested on prototypes -- some good, some bad, but the point is, they did have ideas and they did offer them for consideration.
More importantly, it differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some factories will produce garbage and then try to explain to you that there is no other way (after the fact); other factories correct mistakes before they even show you the result, because they understand what you want and they iterate autonomously, in order to get there.
What is true is that manufacturing is sloooow. The total duration quoted at the beginning of a project should be at least doubled. But this is probably not Chinese-specific.
This hasn't been my experience. I manufacture small metal objects in China, that are not very complex (no electronics, etc.) but I get good inputs from manufacturers. For the packaging for example, we designed cases and envelopes with a manufacturer, and they came up with several ideas that we tested on prototypes -- some good, some bad, but the point is, they did have ideas and they did offer them for consideration.
More importantly, it differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some factories will produce garbage and then try to explain to you that there is no other way (after the fact); other factories correct mistakes before they even show you the result, because they understand what you want and they iterate autonomously, in order to get there.
What is true is that manufacturing is sloooow. The total duration quoted at the beginning of a project should be at least doubled. But this is probably not Chinese-specific.
Naomi Wu has a youtube channel about hardware, electronics etc if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh_ugKacslKhsGGdXP0cRRA
NSFW in US - for better or worse
Thats more her style, not doing it for attracting attention, more because shes interested in modifying her body
EDIT: not sure where the downvote came from, you can read about it from her own pastebin
EDIT: not sure where the downvote came from, you can read about it from her own pastebin
> Thats more her style, not doing it for attracting attention, more because shes interested in modifying her body
You're probably getting downvoted for that premise. It's blatantly obvious she's using it to drive views on YouTube (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that). Even her name is intentionally pointed toward that: SexyCyborg; she's telling you right there what she's doing. It would be just as obvious if it were some hot guy that did every video of his with his shirt off. It's no different from Howard Stern shock-jocking for listeners, or the thousand times Jenna Marbles leveraged her looks to push views, or Matthew McConaughey taking his shirt off on camera. It's always obvious what they're doing and why.
You're probably getting downvoted for that premise. It's blatantly obvious she's using it to drive views on YouTube (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that). Even her name is intentionally pointed toward that: SexyCyborg; she's telling you right there what she's doing. It would be just as obvious if it were some hot guy that did every video of his with his shirt off. It's no different from Howard Stern shock-jocking for listeners, or the thousand times Jenna Marbles leveraged her looks to push views, or Matthew McConaughey taking his shirt off on camera. It's always obvious what they're doing and why.
On the topic of "attracting attention", there's also this which I came across a few months ago when someone else on an electronics forum brought it up: http://sexycyborgisaliar.blogspot.ca/2017/05/naomi-sexy-cybo...
Maybe a bit slanderous and biased, but certainly some interesting evidence to ponder...
Maybe a bit slanderous and biased, but certainly some interesting evidence to ponder...
Then I dont mind haha, theres more clickbaity stuff happening on my fb feeds everyday, at least she got the breasts done before the internet fame and not the other way around from how I remember it.
Err...most people miss it but I don't talk about sex Just completely immodest when it comes to skin, that's sexy for other people, not me
https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/903441607709540352
https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/903441607709540352
> Thats more her style, not doing it for attracting attention, more because shes interested in modifying her body
That doesn't change the fact that the media is still NSFW in the U.S.
That doesn't change the fact that the media is still NSFW in the U.S.
This was an interesting article!
At the same time, there are innovations out of China (that surpass anything which may have inspired it, or which they could have started out copying). So judging by their output, whatever cultural issues surrounded:
>For Chinese, this means you think you know better than a professional, than experts. It’s the act of seeing something and saying “why don’t they do this instead?”. Traditionally, this is viewed as extremely arrogant and certainly not something to be encouraged in children or anyone else.
does not seem to extend to the whole of their ecosystem. I realize the author calls the above a "traditional" perspective.
Could anyone here who is current with current developments of Chinese IP and innovation comment on the validity of this general characterization?
The author in the entirety of the article certainly paints the Chinese culture with a very broad brush. But as would concern readers here on HN, the only thing that matters is what engineers who might work with them think.
What do people here think of the perspective in the article? For Chinese readers, do you agree with it?
At the same time, there are innovations out of China (that surpass anything which may have inspired it, or which they could have started out copying). So judging by their output, whatever cultural issues surrounded:
>For Chinese, this means you think you know better than a professional, than experts. It’s the act of seeing something and saying “why don’t they do this instead?”. Traditionally, this is viewed as extremely arrogant and certainly not something to be encouraged in children or anyone else.
does not seem to extend to the whole of their ecosystem. I realize the author calls the above a "traditional" perspective.
Could anyone here who is current with current developments of Chinese IP and innovation comment on the validity of this general characterization?
The author in the entirety of the article certainly paints the Chinese culture with a very broad brush. But as would concern readers here on HN, the only thing that matters is what engineers who might work with them think.
What do people here think of the perspective in the article? For Chinese readers, do you agree with it?
As a Chinese reader, every sentence in this article rings true, even more so in the historic perspectives.
Especially in the PRC, you're in general incentivized to be an "excellent cog in the machine", and they teach this value to you in schools. "Being unique" in your first 18 years of life is considered a bad thing, and respect for hierarchy is enforced every day.
I wouldn't write everyone in China off to the type presented in the article -- most people in China know that this is not an efficient way of approaching things. However, their hands are tied in a society that enforces hierarchy in every possible way.
Especially in the PRC, you're in general incentivized to be an "excellent cog in the machine", and they teach this value to you in schools. "Being unique" in your first 18 years of life is considered a bad thing, and respect for hierarchy is enforced every day.
I wouldn't write everyone in China off to the type presented in the article -- most people in China know that this is not an efficient way of approaching things. However, their hands are tied in a society that enforces hierarchy in every possible way.
Thank you. Especially since you write that "every sentence in the article rings true" for you, can you expand on this from the article:
>engineers that you know to be otherwise reasonably competent simply choosing not to bring up glaring and obvious problems.
What does it refer to? How would/should someone guard against it? Normally we are usually used to being able to receive a bit of push-back (maybe polite) if we propose something with a glaring and obvious problem. Does this mean engineers would build something that doesn't work at all? (For some reason that's completely obvious to them.) In point of fact, I'm not sure what the article refers to, as it doesn't give an example. Could you give an example of what you think they mean, and how someone might protect against this effect? Thanks.
>engineers that you know to be otherwise reasonably competent simply choosing not to bring up glaring and obvious problems.
What does it refer to? How would/should someone guard against it? Normally we are usually used to being able to receive a bit of push-back (maybe polite) if we propose something with a glaring and obvious problem. Does this mean engineers would build something that doesn't work at all? (For some reason that's completely obvious to them.) In point of fact, I'm not sure what the article refers to, as it doesn't give an example. Could you give an example of what you think they mean, and how someone might protect against this effect? Thanks.
I think "glaring and obvious" is a little hyperbole, in the sense that most of the decisions an engineer can make aren't really that influential, and more often than not if the odds are right, nothing will break.
An example would be: I know this different schedule can probably save the company $xxx money, but since it's my boss who proposed it I'll just let it pass.
It really takes a village. The culture of standing up against higer-ups is sometimes way out of the league for a single person to achieve.
An example would be: I know this different schedule can probably save the company $xxx money, but since it's my boss who proposed it I'll just let it pass.
It really takes a village. The culture of standing up against higer-ups is sometimes way out of the league for a single person to achieve.
Thank you for the example. I also asked how someone can protect against this effect, but you did not answer that portion of my question. By "someone" I meant, in this case the boss - how can bosses counter this effect?
For instance, to continue with your example, suppose the boss certainly would like to save $xxx with a different schedule they hadn't considered, but isn't even aware that the engineer is competent enough to propose it and knows how to do so: so in this case what could the boss have said or done differently that would have caused the engineer to propose it?
I assume ending each meeting with "We must now talk about anything that would improve the proposal just made; even if it makes me look like an idiot. Zhang Wei, do you know of any improvements?" and then going around pointing to each person and making them tell you whether they do, does not sound like it would "work". In this case Zhang Wei would say "no", as would the rest of the engineers... so how can the manager learn that an alternative schedule which Zhang Wei can propose could save them $xxx? (And maybe even complete production sooner, etc.) Any concrete suggestions here?
For instance, to continue with your example, suppose the boss certainly would like to save $xxx with a different schedule they hadn't considered, but isn't even aware that the engineer is competent enough to propose it and knows how to do so: so in this case what could the boss have said or done differently that would have caused the engineer to propose it?
I assume ending each meeting with "We must now talk about anything that would improve the proposal just made; even if it makes me look like an idiot. Zhang Wei, do you know of any improvements?" and then going around pointing to each person and making them tell you whether they do, does not sound like it would "work". In this case Zhang Wei would say "no", as would the rest of the engineers... so how can the manager learn that an alternative schedule which Zhang Wei can propose could save them $xxx? (And maybe even complete production sooner, etc.) Any concrete suggestions here?
Maybe anonymity would help? The problem there is that people won't have as much incentive to propose improvements, as they won't be recognized if their proposals end up being good.
It just has to be ingrained in the company culture I guess. You'd really need to emphasize, whenever possible, that improvements and suggestions and corrections are welcome. You're fighting against upbringing.
It just has to be ingrained in the company culture I guess. You'd really need to emphasize, whenever possible, that improvements and suggestions and corrections are welcome. You're fighting against upbringing.
The only century routinely teach her citizen about how to do revolution, and is called to respect hierarchy...
I must be living in a China of a parallel universe.
But one thing I agree, do do appear use statement without backup, that certainly one common traits of Chinese education: teach facts not reasoning...
I must be living in a China of a parallel universe.
But one thing I agree, do do appear use statement without backup, that certainly one common traits of Chinese education: teach facts not reasoning...
Wow, we really must be living in parallel universes. Are you sure “revolution” is encouraged in China? In fact, are you sure revolution is encouraged in any country?
Sure, but you learn that in a country you described as teaching to respect hierarchy, did you not find the contradictory?
Almost any books in China described the country as founded by overthrowing the rich and powerful oppressed the people.
Certainly the government is the rich and powerful and is no longer what it should be as described in the text book.
But is it appropriate to fabricate statements to patron the western stereotype?!
Do you know what Deliang Hou's line: isn't the truth already powerful, why use lies to support our causes?!
Almost any books in China described the country as founded by overthrowing the rich and powerful oppressed the people.
Certainly the government is the rich and powerful and is no longer what it should be as described in the text book.
But is it appropriate to fabricate statements to patron the western stereotype?!
Do you know what Deliang Hou's line: isn't the truth already powerful, why use lies to support our causes?!
> The only century routinely teach her citizen about how to do revolution, and is called to respect hierarchy
> Sure, but you learn that in a country you described as teaching to respect hierarchy, did you not find the contradictory?
I'm not sure where the contradictory is, because I certainly don't feel that overthrowing your superiors is an acceptable thing during my education, and this discussion is getting more political than I'm comfortable with on HN.
It doesn't take too much effort to acknowledge that China, or more so the entire eastern Asia's culture, favors respecting hierarchy, and I'm not sure why we're even debating this. I'm also not sure what about my statement is fabricated. You literally cannot fabricate an opinion.
I'll say this though: things are moving in the right direction, and I'm seeing the culture moving away from respecting hierarchy in all conditions. But you really can't fix the problem without acknowledging it.
> Sure, but you learn that in a country you described as teaching to respect hierarchy, did you not find the contradictory?
I'm not sure where the contradictory is, because I certainly don't feel that overthrowing your superiors is an acceptable thing during my education, and this discussion is getting more political than I'm comfortable with on HN.
It doesn't take too much effort to acknowledge that China, or more so the entire eastern Asia's culture, favors respecting hierarchy, and I'm not sure why we're even debating this. I'm also not sure what about my statement is fabricated. You literally cannot fabricate an opinion.
I'll say this though: things are moving in the right direction, and I'm seeing the culture moving away from respecting hierarchy in all conditions. But you really can't fix the problem without acknowledging it.
1. I am not talking about politics, please do not label or imply whatn I stated. Chinese textbook devote significant part on history from 1840 to recent years. Those are a history of revolutions.
2. Chinese are not particularly taught to respect hierarchy or particularly really respect hierarchy. Most nations respect their own hierarchy. There is no special in China, and there is no special in Chinese education.
3. I am not debating if China respecting hierarchy, I am pointing out that your baseless claim of China being educating or particularly educating her citizens to respect hierarchy, that's not true and I showed the fact.
4. Respecting hierarchy is not a problem itself. Organized system, be it human or machine, needs hierarchy to function. Your premise of moving away from hierarchy is GOOD, itself is another unbased claim, AGAIN.
2. Chinese are not particularly taught to respect hierarchy or particularly really respect hierarchy. Most nations respect their own hierarchy. There is no special in China, and there is no special in Chinese education.
3. I am not debating if China respecting hierarchy, I am pointing out that your baseless claim of China being educating or particularly educating her citizens to respect hierarchy, that's not true and I showed the fact.
4. Respecting hierarchy is not a problem itself. Organized system, be it human or machine, needs hierarchy to function. Your premise of moving away from hierarchy is GOOD, itself is another unbased claim, AGAIN.
Chinese reader here. It's a very valid characterization of the culture. Respect is much more important. Less anti-intellectualism when compared to the West. Much more communal than individual, in all aspects.
But there's definitely change going on in China. Juxtapose all of that with increased Western exposure, and increased sense of Chinese pride. More individualism. More "We're Chinese, we can do better!" attitudes.
In many ways China has been playing catch-up and still is - it's only been in a position to innovate and lead in very recent times. I mention this as a rebuttal to accusations of China being uninventive.
But there's definitely change going on in China. Juxtapose all of that with increased Western exposure, and increased sense of Chinese pride. More individualism. More "We're Chinese, we can do better!" attitudes.
In many ways China has been playing catch-up and still is - it's only been in a position to innovate and lead in very recent times. I mention this as a rebuttal to accusations of China being uninventive.
Thank you. I would also be interested in your answer to the question I asked yzmtf2008 here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15153379
(sibling comment to this comment.)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15153379
(sibling comment to this comment.)
Could some of this also result from the contractual nature of using Chinese suppliers? I know that from my own experience with contracting, that proposing an improvement can be difficult if you also want to attach a fee to the improvement. How do you say, "I think your proposal is flawed, this way is better, but it will cost you $X more" in a way that doesn't feel like a money grab or an insult? It can be in your best interest to allow the flaw to stand, let the client notice and propose the improvement during the next round of contract negotiations. And so the only improvements a contractor can propose are those that do not cost substantially more then the established price.
Of course this is more for fixed price for fixed work contracting. Contracts with more variable pricing my be better. Maybe other contacting setups can alleviate this issue, but I haven't seen many that could work and that clients are willing to sign.
Of course this is more for fixed price for fixed work contracting. Contracts with more variable pricing my be better. Maybe other contacting setups can alleviate this issue, but I haven't seen many that could work and that clients are willing to sign.
I think it depends on having good rapport with the other party, but how about this: "If you'd like, we can do X for an additional $Y."
> For Chinese, this means you think you know better than a professional, than experts. It’s the act of seeing something and saying “why don’t they do this instead?”. Traditionally, this is viewed as extremely arrogant and certainly not something to be encouraged in children or anyone else.
> Simply put, in a strictly hierarchical society, proposing a solution missed by your superiors is at the very least perceived as arrogant. You’re just as likely to be penalized in some way for making whoever is responsible for the current solution lose face as you are to benefit in any way from proposing a better way.
Is this generally true in other industries as well? How do Chinese companies try to be innovative, if people are discouraged from suggesting ideas?
> Simply put, in a strictly hierarchical society, proposing a solution missed by your superiors is at the very least perceived as arrogant. You’re just as likely to be penalized in some way for making whoever is responsible for the current solution lose face as you are to benefit in any way from proposing a better way.
Is this generally true in other industries as well? How do Chinese companies try to be innovative, if people are discouraged from suggesting ideas?
Speaking from direct experience in the west, pretty much contemporary Google.
In Seattle, a similar phrase I've heard is "I've invested quite a bit of ego in X" when one challenges assumptions about X.
All IMO of course...
In Seattle, a similar phrase I've heard is "I've invested quite a bit of ego in X" when one challenges assumptions about X.
All IMO of course...
> Few Chinese companies promote engineering staff internally or even compensate them particularly well, so there’s little incentive to put an idea forward that may result in additional work and time away from their families.
Too much forced analogy. This one is just plain out of context. Even people dont want to be educated in public, that does not translate who do the job doesn't get paid.
Too much forced analogy. This one is just plain out of context. Even people dont want to be educated in public, that does not translate who do the job doesn't get paid.
Yeah...Baidu/Tencent/Alibaba pays engineers REALLY WELL, comparing to the local standard.
Software engineering are already the best paid job category[1], outpacing finance, for Chinese university graduates, as the best profession to go to. I would say that is not the case here in US, where engineers are well paid, but the still far from the envy of everyone, which would be lawyers and doctors.
1. http://www.chinanews.com/sh/2016/05-16/7871331.shtml (in Chinese though)
Side notes: It is pretty interesting to read those articles try to analyze Chinese or East Asian people in general as they are machines from the same factory tagged with serial number. I cannot see how that could give you really insightful conclusions that generalize to 1.4 Billion people.
Software engineering are already the best paid job category[1], outpacing finance, for Chinese university graduates, as the best profession to go to. I would say that is not the case here in US, where engineers are well paid, but the still far from the envy of everyone, which would be lawyers and doctors.
1. http://www.chinanews.com/sh/2016/05-16/7871331.shtml (in Chinese though)
Side notes: It is pretty interesting to read those articles try to analyze Chinese or East Asian people in general as they are machines from the same factory tagged with serial number. I cannot see how that could give you really insightful conclusions that generalize to 1.4 Billion people.
This is fantastically well-written. Great insights.
I am not sure how did you draw this conclusion. The article is at best just reaffirming stereotype, at worst plain dilkusional manipulation...
for some context.
the "community" on hacker news has said limor (ladyada) fried is not a "real engineer" or she has help and doesn't really do engineering, or she is not a real person, or she is just a marketer, or it's not really her code, amongst other attacks anytime her work appears here on hacker news.
the same attacks on hacker news on naomi wu have been said to other women who make things, share their projects, and are online, including limor, on hacker news.
before you hit "add comment" - what is the goal here hacker news community?
the "community" on hacker news has said limor (ladyada) fried is not a "real engineer" or she has help and doesn't really do engineering, or she is not a real person, or she is just a marketer, or it's not really her code, amongst other attacks anytime her work appears here on hacker news.
the same attacks on hacker news on naomi wu have been said to other women who make things, share their projects, and are online, including limor, on hacker news.
before you hit "add comment" - what is the goal here hacker news community?
HN isn't always hostile to women.
The last time I made the front page under my real name,[0] I got a very encouraging comment about how it was nice that I had just started programming and was already thinking of hard problems.
Thankfully, it's simple enough to add an nginx rule to bounce anyone from news.ycombinator.com right back to where they came from.
--
[0] For some reason HN comments are much more respectful when I use a pseudonym. I must have a silly name or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The last time I made the front page under my real name,[0] I got a very encouraging comment about how it was nice that I had just started programming and was already thinking of hard problems.
Thankfully, it's simple enough to add an nginx rule to bounce anyone from news.ycombinator.com right back to where they came from.
--
[0] For some reason HN comments are much more respectful when I use a pseudonym. I must have a silly name or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
perhaps "HN isn't always hostile to women" but it's enough times for every woman i know to say it is.
hacker news community, what is your goal here?
hacker news community, what is your goal here?
Avoiding the sentiment of the other comments here (which are not completely confusing, but nonetheless a little over my head), I have a practical question:
How does one relate to and incentivize the Chinese people, then? Where are good places to start learning more?
Context/example:
I'm tentatively interested in approaching China from a "hobbyist with a tiny bit of money" standpoint. I want to do limited runs (3 to 4 zeros, or if circumstances allow, less!) of small handheld electronic devices - PCB, thin removable enclosure, possibly some buttons/keys on the front.
Plastic caps directly over tactile buttons is cheap and compact, but rubber-dome systems seem to have a higher-quality finish. The challenge here is that rubber-dome "mats" are likely expensive to tool for, while sticking the dome under a plastic cap means extra thickness. I'd need to find out what my options are here (if I could achieve making a small keyboard, with full key-click - like the Psion Series 5 or HP palmtops - that would be amazing).
As a separate thing, I'm also really fascinated by the chip-on-board techniques used to manufacture credit-card-thin solar calculators. It would be amazingly fun to be able to play with those manufacturing techniques, but going on the cheapness and sheer numbers of devices like this out in the wild (and the fact that I'm seeing the same designs on eBay as I saw in electronics catalogues from 1999!), it seems reasonable to think that the tooling to make these is probably eye-watering, sadly. But I don't know.
I'm not asking for solutions or answers to these problems/questions here (although if anyone wants to comment...); they're just for context. My point is that I have no idea how or where to start in terms of contacting people and going through all the machinery; I know the volume I can promise is effectively nil, and I read this article from the standpoint of knowing I have an extra job of convincing to do because of that.
I also recently read https://lwn.net/Articles/504865/ (found in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15138028; replies say the main focus of the (2012) article is outdated; I'm curious if the bits I'm quoting are relevant). It's a transcript of a talk about some teething problems with trying to do runs of hardware to run KDE on. It reads
> ... the manufacturers are "all about volume" ...
and
> Because the volume of devices that [Make Play Live] could promise to sell was fairly low, the manufacturer had little interest in consulting or even notifying the company about the changes.
and
> In the Q&A session, Seigo further explained some of the problems that MPL had run into. Unless it can promise a quarter of a million (or some other six-digit number) of units, MPL won't be able to get any input into the process.
This info will likely be old hat to some. But I begin to wonder that whoever agrees to do small production runs will just be amusedly humoring me - because if the speaker of the transcripted talk linked above said '"Our order is a rounding error"'... what does that make my run? (Would it even need a receipt? :P)
So I'm interested to understand Chinese culture more - particularly with manufacturing, and in terms of learning more about the tech scene - so I know how and where and the best place(s) to jump in.
I read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15138739 a couple of days ago; to quote:
> ... [T]he most impressive I've seen were some calculators I saw in Shenzhen a few years ago which looked like simple solar-powered 4-function ones, but were actually programmable and had several tens of KB of memory. Trying to use that functionality with a 8-digit 7-segment display, however, was quite challenging.
That's awesome. That's the sort of thing I mean by "scene" and what I want to learn tons more about.
How does one relate to and incentivize the Chinese people, then? Where are good places to start learning more?
Context/example:
I'm tentatively interested in approaching China from a "hobbyist with a tiny bit of money" standpoint. I want to do limited runs (3 to 4 zeros, or if circumstances allow, less!) of small handheld electronic devices - PCB, thin removable enclosure, possibly some buttons/keys on the front.
Plastic caps directly over tactile buttons is cheap and compact, but rubber-dome systems seem to have a higher-quality finish. The challenge here is that rubber-dome "mats" are likely expensive to tool for, while sticking the dome under a plastic cap means extra thickness. I'd need to find out what my options are here (if I could achieve making a small keyboard, with full key-click - like the Psion Series 5 or HP palmtops - that would be amazing).
As a separate thing, I'm also really fascinated by the chip-on-board techniques used to manufacture credit-card-thin solar calculators. It would be amazingly fun to be able to play with those manufacturing techniques, but going on the cheapness and sheer numbers of devices like this out in the wild (and the fact that I'm seeing the same designs on eBay as I saw in electronics catalogues from 1999!), it seems reasonable to think that the tooling to make these is probably eye-watering, sadly. But I don't know.
I'm not asking for solutions or answers to these problems/questions here (although if anyone wants to comment...); they're just for context. My point is that I have no idea how or where to start in terms of contacting people and going through all the machinery; I know the volume I can promise is effectively nil, and I read this article from the standpoint of knowing I have an extra job of convincing to do because of that.
I also recently read https://lwn.net/Articles/504865/ (found in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15138028; replies say the main focus of the (2012) article is outdated; I'm curious if the bits I'm quoting are relevant). It's a transcript of a talk about some teething problems with trying to do runs of hardware to run KDE on. It reads
> ... the manufacturers are "all about volume" ...
and
> Because the volume of devices that [Make Play Live] could promise to sell was fairly low, the manufacturer had little interest in consulting or even notifying the company about the changes.
and
> In the Q&A session, Seigo further explained some of the problems that MPL had run into. Unless it can promise a quarter of a million (or some other six-digit number) of units, MPL won't be able to get any input into the process.
This info will likely be old hat to some. But I begin to wonder that whoever agrees to do small production runs will just be amusedly humoring me - because if the speaker of the transcripted talk linked above said '"Our order is a rounding error"'... what does that make my run? (Would it even need a receipt? :P)
So I'm interested to understand Chinese culture more - particularly with manufacturing, and in terms of learning more about the tech scene - so I know how and where and the best place(s) to jump in.
I read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15138739 a couple of days ago; to quote:
> ... [T]he most impressive I've seen were some calculators I saw in Shenzhen a few years ago which looked like simple solar-powered 4-function ones, but were actually programmable and had several tens of KB of memory. Trying to use that functionality with a 8-digit 7-segment display, however, was quite challenging.
That's awesome. That's the sort of thing I mean by "scene" and what I want to learn tons more about.
I spent a reasonably significant amount of time figuring out the Psion series 5 LCD and Keyboard interface. I built my own controller for the keyboard, and interfaced the display to a Gumstix. That was many years ago...
I've also done some prototyping in Shenzhen. CNC and 3D printed parts are cheap. If you've modeled it, everything apart from the membrane itself should be straightforward (and cheap in small quantities, <100USD). DirtySLA and itead provided cheap SLA printing options.
The membrane itself is likely more problematic. But you can make FPCBs, flexible circuit boards. In small quantities and at relatively low cost. Because the membrane is quite large I'd guess maybe 500USD? Getting domes in it probably is harder. I wonder if you can deform Polymide in some kind of jig. Alternatively could add a thin, 3d printed spacer perhaps?
If you really wanted to do it properly, I don't think that would be massively expensive either. Having a prototype might help. There are a bunch of companies that /do/ agree to do small runs. And I know many people how have done this. Often you end up having to visit the factory a bunch to push them to do what you want, and have occasional failures. But it's often still far easier than it might be elsewhere.
I've also done some prototyping in Shenzhen. CNC and 3D printed parts are cheap. If you've modeled it, everything apart from the membrane itself should be straightforward (and cheap in small quantities, <100USD). DirtySLA and itead provided cheap SLA printing options.
The membrane itself is likely more problematic. But you can make FPCBs, flexible circuit boards. In small quantities and at relatively low cost. Because the membrane is quite large I'd guess maybe 500USD? Getting domes in it probably is harder. I wonder if you can deform Polymide in some kind of jig. Alternatively could add a thin, 3d printed spacer perhaps?
If you really wanted to do it properly, I don't think that would be massively expensive either. Having a prototype might help. There are a bunch of companies that /do/ agree to do small runs. And I know many people how have done this. Often you end up having to visit the factory a bunch to push them to do what you want, and have occasional failures. But it's often still far easier than it might be elsewhere.
This is really encouraging to hear, thanks!
Wow, you figured the LCD out. I'm very curious how the LCD actually works - how is it updated? Through some kind of serial protocol? I get the impression it's pretty fast - I made a program in OPL a while ago that created a borderless window a metric stupid number of pixels high and EPOC was able to scroll it up the screen remarkably quickly (I was trying to see whether it could do haptic scrolling, it definitely could). It also seemed that I could drag windows around the screen faster than the liquid crystals could keep up - there was no choppiness here, it was rather an organic problem, so the LCD controller bandwidth/implementation seemed really good.
Flexible circuit boards are such a cool technology. To clarify, though, you're saying the Psion's keyboard is large? I presume the $500 is for initial tooling and that individual membranes will be a couple of dollars to run.
Another keyboard approach I think is really cool is that found in the original BlackBerry 850/950. I've admittedly only seen pictures of these but it looks quite usable.
> If you really wanted to do it properly, I don't think that would be massively expensive either.
That's incredibly encouraging, thanks.
> Having a prototype might help. There are a bunch of companies that /do/ agree to do small runs.
Oh okay, cool to know.
> And I know many people how have done this.
:D
> Often you end up having to visit the factory a bunch to push them to do what you want, and have occasional failures.
Hmm, plane tickets...
> But it's often still far easier than it might be elsewhere.
Duly noted. Thanks.
Wow, you figured the LCD out. I'm very curious how the LCD actually works - how is it updated? Through some kind of serial protocol? I get the impression it's pretty fast - I made a program in OPL a while ago that created a borderless window a metric stupid number of pixels high and EPOC was able to scroll it up the screen remarkably quickly (I was trying to see whether it could do haptic scrolling, it definitely could). It also seemed that I could drag windows around the screen faster than the liquid crystals could keep up - there was no choppiness here, it was rather an organic problem, so the LCD controller bandwidth/implementation seemed really good.
Flexible circuit boards are such a cool technology. To clarify, though, you're saying the Psion's keyboard is large? I presume the $500 is for initial tooling and that individual membranes will be a couple of dollars to run.
Another keyboard approach I think is really cool is that found in the original BlackBerry 850/950. I've admittedly only seen pictures of these but it looks quite usable.
> If you really wanted to do it properly, I don't think that would be massively expensive either.
That's incredibly encouraging, thanks.
> Having a prototype might help. There are a bunch of companies that /do/ agree to do small runs.
Oh okay, cool to know.
> And I know many people how have done this.
:D
> Often you end up having to visit the factory a bunch to push them to do what you want, and have occasional failures.
Hmm, plane tickets...
> But it's often still far easier than it might be elsewhere.
Duly noted. Thanks.
Older LCDs have a lower level interface. From memory, there's a pixel clock, line clock and frame clock. Then a parallel bus with the pixel value. The cirrus logic ARM SoC in the Psion 5mx interfaces with the LCD directly. You also need to supply it with some weird voltages (+/- 15V?). When I was doing that I found that part more difficult, I think I'd find it easier now...
The interface is pretty standard, so the gumstix (TI OMAP3something) can also drive it.
The keyboard is pretty big for a FPCB. I'm just guess 500USD, for maybe 10 pieces. Because that's the prototype level pricing I've seen before (check itead.cc or Seeed, they both do FPCB now I believe).
The process they actual use in membrane keyboards is different, I don't know what that process is called.
The interface is pretty standard, so the gumstix (TI OMAP3something) can also drive it.
The keyboard is pretty big for a FPCB. I'm just guess 500USD, for maybe 10 pieces. Because that's the prototype level pricing I've seen before (check itead.cc or Seeed, they both do FPCB now I believe).
The process they actual use in membrane keyboards is different, I don't know what that process is called.
Hmm. When you say "talks to the LCD directly", there's still a tiny low-level controller attached to the LCD, right?
While highly nonstandard, but I want to see how feasible it is to truly drive an LCD directly. To me that sounds like a) huge pin count, b) "fun" prototyping costs, and c) difficult conversations with manufacturers who don't want to explain how their controllers work (and I guess d) a lot of work on my end to support all the different LCDs I'll use). My motivation is to see whether it's possible to control an LCD and touch panel or keyboard from a single chip.
> The interface is pretty standard, so the gumstix (TI OMAP3something) can also drive it.
Good to know.
> The keyboard is pretty big for a FPCB. I'm just guess 500USD, for maybe 10 pieces. Because that's the prototype level pricing I've seen before (check itead.cc or Seeed, they both do FPCB now I believe).
Oh okay, so $50ea for prototyping. Cool.
> The process they actual use in membrane keyboards is different, I don't know what that process is called.
Okay then.
While highly nonstandard, but I want to see how feasible it is to truly drive an LCD directly. To me that sounds like a) huge pin count, b) "fun" prototyping costs, and c) difficult conversations with manufacturers who don't want to explain how their controllers work (and I guess d) a lot of work on my end to support all the different LCDs I'll use). My motivation is to see whether it's possible to control an LCD and touch panel or keyboard from a single chip.
> The interface is pretty standard, so the gumstix (TI OMAP3something) can also drive it.
Good to know.
> The keyboard is pretty big for a FPCB. I'm just guess 500USD, for maybe 10 pieces. Because that's the prototype level pricing I've seen before (check itead.cc or Seeed, they both do FPCB now I believe).
Oh okay, so $50ea for prototyping. Cool.
> The process they actual use in membrane keyboards is different, I don't know what that process is called.
Okay then.
> Hmm. When you say "talks to the LCD directly", there's still a tiny low-level controller attached to the LCD, right?
There's a chip on the FPCB bonded to the LCD matrix.
> While highly nonstandard, but I want to see how feasible it is to truly drive an LCD directly.
I guess you'd probably need to use an FPGA to do that. I can't see an advantage to doing this (there might be one, but I can't see it).
There's a chip on the FPCB bonded to the LCD matrix.
> While highly nonstandard, but I want to see how feasible it is to truly drive an LCD directly.
I guess you'd probably need to use an FPGA to do that. I can't see an advantage to doing this (there might be one, but I can't see it).
Woops, didn't see reply.
I was curious about integrating LCD control into a single processor because the security implications are really interesting. Just an idea at this point though.
I remember looking inside cheap electronic organizers and seeing a lone blob on the PCB. So I know managing simple LCDs is doable.
I was curious about integrating LCD control into a single processor because the security implications are really interesting. Just an idea at this point though.
I remember looking inside cheap electronic organizers and seeing a lone blob on the PCB. So I know managing simple LCDs is doable.
>How does one relate to and incentivize the Chinese people, then?
Guanxi, guanxi, guanxi.
Guanxi, guanxi, guanxi.
It's the means not the ends...
"I know the volume I can promise is effectively nil, and I read this article from the standpoint of knowing I have an extra job of convincing to do because of that."
Convincing of what - people to work for effectively nothing? Because according to your logic, that is what you are trying to accomplish. Convincing people to work for nothing. But it's not just you, it is the majority, dare I say nearly everyone, that comes to China. Nearly everyone is trying to get something for nothing. People just seem to lose their ability to comprehend that people in China have the same constraints on time, and particularly the value time, as everyone else outside of China.
I own a factory in China and I see this all too often. For example, people come to us with complicated electromechanical projects with half-baked designs. Designs that would require at least 3 additional months of prototyping before we'd even be ready for tooling. That means we are very likely going to spend 6-12 months working on your project. Too often, they don't have a dedicated engineering staff so there are a lot of gaps we must cover. Verification and validation of designs. Resultant CAD changes. Circuit design changes. Prototyping. Strategic sourcing. Lifecycle testing. Safety and agency. Packaging, packout and shipping. More, much more. It can easily consume 1000+ man-hours even 2000+ man-hours from a team of 8-10 professionals working on it. And then, lets say I quote $35,000 USD nonrefundable engineering fees or labor and overheads for 1000+ manhours. That's about the cost of a secretary with an associates degree from my home state in WV. What do I usually hear? Crickets. I hear nothing back because people are too busy expecting that they are going to work with a factory here in China and get something for nothing.
And in the end, they are all wondering "why didn't I get what I tried to buy from China?"
Convincing of what - people to work for effectively nothing? Because according to your logic, that is what you are trying to accomplish. Convincing people to work for nothing. But it's not just you, it is the majority, dare I say nearly everyone, that comes to China. Nearly everyone is trying to get something for nothing. People just seem to lose their ability to comprehend that people in China have the same constraints on time, and particularly the value time, as everyone else outside of China.
I own a factory in China and I see this all too often. For example, people come to us with complicated electromechanical projects with half-baked designs. Designs that would require at least 3 additional months of prototyping before we'd even be ready for tooling. That means we are very likely going to spend 6-12 months working on your project. Too often, they don't have a dedicated engineering staff so there are a lot of gaps we must cover. Verification and validation of designs. Resultant CAD changes. Circuit design changes. Prototyping. Strategic sourcing. Lifecycle testing. Safety and agency. Packaging, packout and shipping. More, much more. It can easily consume 1000+ man-hours even 2000+ man-hours from a team of 8-10 professionals working on it. And then, lets say I quote $35,000 USD nonrefundable engineering fees or labor and overheads for 1000+ manhours. That's about the cost of a secretary with an associates degree from my home state in WV. What do I usually hear? Crickets. I hear nothing back because people are too busy expecting that they are going to work with a factory here in China and get something for nothing.
And in the end, they are all wondering "why didn't I get what I tried to buy from China?"
Thanks so much for this insight.
> Convincing of what - people to work for effectively nothing?
Not quite. Things cost money; trying to get something for less than it honestly costs is delusional, disrespectful, wastes everyone's time, etc. I don't want to do that. (I'll admit I didn't convey the sentiment I was getting at in my last message particularly well.)
Rather, it seems that there are few options if want to make something that isn't going to be superscalar in terms of volume demand. Instead of "we need ten production samples of this design to judge tolerance, and then our plans are to do a volume order of xxx,xxx items"; I want to do the minimum order possible (for reasonable and non-irritating (!) values of "minimum").
Essentially I'm in the same part of the spectrum typically catered to by hobbyist 3D printing, but I'm trying to do things that are tricky to manage with just a 3D printer. I mentioned keyboards before as an example; I've wondered about how much it would cost to tool for custom keyboards for a while.
> People just seem to lose their ability to comprehend that people in China have the same constraints on time, and particularly the value time, as everyone else outside of China.
FWIW, I think this is because China is viewed as a kind of magical place that makes so much of everything with such amazing prices that there must be some superhuman magic in there somewhere. :P So all reason and logic kind of goes out the window. Somehow stuff is being made for impossibly cheap, so surely that must mean that the actual manufacturing cost is cheap too, right? (It would seem that these people don't comprehend economies of scale. I get the impression that the reason that (for example) a given cheap toy is only ~a dollar is because some super-wholesaler did an order for ~a million and paid ~$8xx,xxx (?), and then forwarded their costs on to a bunch of toy stores.)
> I own a factory in China and I see this all too often. For example, people come to us with complicated electromechanical projects with half-baked designs. Designs that would require at least 3 additional months of prototyping before we'd even be ready for tooling. That means we are very likely going to spend 6-12 months working on your project. Too often, they don't have a dedicated engineering staff so there are a lot of gaps we must cover. Verification and validation of designs. Resultant CAD changes. Circuit design changes. Prototyping. Strategic sourcing. Lifecycle testing. Safety and agency. Packaging, packout and shipping. More, much more. It can easily consume 1000+ man-hours even 2000+ man-hours from a team of 8-10 professionals working on it. And then, lets say I quote $35,000 USD nonrefundable engineering fees or labor and overheads for 1000+ manhours. That's about the cost of a secretary with an associates degree from my home state in WV. What do I usually hear? Crickets. I hear nothing back because people are too busy expecting that they are going to work with a factory here in China and get something for nothing.
I see I have a lot to learn about. (I'm very curious where I should start. On the one hand I'm yet another confused tangle of dime-a-dozen ideas, but on the other hand I do think I have the patience and determination to manage a couple of them down the track a bit.)
Reading this makes me think of the line "Reproduced by (...) from camera-ready copy supplied by the authors." at the front of one of the textbooks I have upstairs. It sounds like I could eliminate significant cost by applying similar diligence and aiming to deliver complete specifications that are immediately usable. I presume it's possible to request that mistakes be pointed out so I can do the work to correct them on my end. That said, I say this 100% naively; I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually infeasible :)
> And in the end, they are all wondering "why didn't I get what I tried to buy from China?"
I remember having a brief conversation with someone selling kitchen supplies at a kiosk in a local mall (IIRC) many years ago about manufacturing arbitrary things in China versus elsewhere. That's when I learned that the main reason "Made in China" has such a bad reputation is because it's the customers on the non-China end that are always trying to "optimize" their costs - and that end quality was judged acceptable by sampling at the receiving end, not the source.
That's kinda saddening, but it seems that the prices people expect to pay for different things have been pretty much been locked-in since the manufacturing boom of the ~60s-80s, so anybody who wants to pay the factories a tiny bit more for better output quality is going to have a very hard time competing.
The angle I've been coming from here is biased a bit towards manufacturing in general - I've mentioned toys, everyday objects, etc, as I have little awareness of the technical/industrial side of manufacturing at this point.
> Convincing of what - people to work for effectively nothing?
Not quite. Things cost money; trying to get something for less than it honestly costs is delusional, disrespectful, wastes everyone's time, etc. I don't want to do that. (I'll admit I didn't convey the sentiment I was getting at in my last message particularly well.)
Rather, it seems that there are few options if want to make something that isn't going to be superscalar in terms of volume demand. Instead of "we need ten production samples of this design to judge tolerance, and then our plans are to do a volume order of xxx,xxx items"; I want to do the minimum order possible (for reasonable and non-irritating (!) values of "minimum").
Essentially I'm in the same part of the spectrum typically catered to by hobbyist 3D printing, but I'm trying to do things that are tricky to manage with just a 3D printer. I mentioned keyboards before as an example; I've wondered about how much it would cost to tool for custom keyboards for a while.
> People just seem to lose their ability to comprehend that people in China have the same constraints on time, and particularly the value time, as everyone else outside of China.
FWIW, I think this is because China is viewed as a kind of magical place that makes so much of everything with such amazing prices that there must be some superhuman magic in there somewhere. :P So all reason and logic kind of goes out the window. Somehow stuff is being made for impossibly cheap, so surely that must mean that the actual manufacturing cost is cheap too, right? (It would seem that these people don't comprehend economies of scale. I get the impression that the reason that (for example) a given cheap toy is only ~a dollar is because some super-wholesaler did an order for ~a million and paid ~$8xx,xxx (?), and then forwarded their costs on to a bunch of toy stores.)
> I own a factory in China and I see this all too often. For example, people come to us with complicated electromechanical projects with half-baked designs. Designs that would require at least 3 additional months of prototyping before we'd even be ready for tooling. That means we are very likely going to spend 6-12 months working on your project. Too often, they don't have a dedicated engineering staff so there are a lot of gaps we must cover. Verification and validation of designs. Resultant CAD changes. Circuit design changes. Prototyping. Strategic sourcing. Lifecycle testing. Safety and agency. Packaging, packout and shipping. More, much more. It can easily consume 1000+ man-hours even 2000+ man-hours from a team of 8-10 professionals working on it. And then, lets say I quote $35,000 USD nonrefundable engineering fees or labor and overheads for 1000+ manhours. That's about the cost of a secretary with an associates degree from my home state in WV. What do I usually hear? Crickets. I hear nothing back because people are too busy expecting that they are going to work with a factory here in China and get something for nothing.
I see I have a lot to learn about. (I'm very curious where I should start. On the one hand I'm yet another confused tangle of dime-a-dozen ideas, but on the other hand I do think I have the patience and determination to manage a couple of them down the track a bit.)
Reading this makes me think of the line "Reproduced by (...) from camera-ready copy supplied by the authors." at the front of one of the textbooks I have upstairs. It sounds like I could eliminate significant cost by applying similar diligence and aiming to deliver complete specifications that are immediately usable. I presume it's possible to request that mistakes be pointed out so I can do the work to correct them on my end. That said, I say this 100% naively; I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually infeasible :)
> And in the end, they are all wondering "why didn't I get what I tried to buy from China?"
I remember having a brief conversation with someone selling kitchen supplies at a kiosk in a local mall (IIRC) many years ago about manufacturing arbitrary things in China versus elsewhere. That's when I learned that the main reason "Made in China" has such a bad reputation is because it's the customers on the non-China end that are always trying to "optimize" their costs - and that end quality was judged acceptable by sampling at the receiving end, not the source.
That's kinda saddening, but it seems that the prices people expect to pay for different things have been pretty much been locked-in since the manufacturing boom of the ~60s-80s, so anybody who wants to pay the factories a tiny bit more for better output quality is going to have a very hard time competing.
The angle I've been coming from here is biased a bit towards manufacturing in general - I've mentioned toys, everyday objects, etc, as I have little awareness of the technical/industrial side of manufacturing at this point.
Well said.
timaz(5)
> You know how overseas Chinese students in America all copy each others work to get answers? This workflow scale. How we work when older too. So if I have a question I open up QQ and have a few hundred friends. We all help each other with whatever. Many are engineers or work in factories here in Shenzhen. Most of the electronics in the world are made here and a lot of them designed and engineered here also. So easy to get very very professional help. This network has been called gongkai. Also why so many hardware startup here.
Found from the author's comment history on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY/comments/3c9l2m/my_diy_underlit....
She seems to have a lot of (culturally) interesting opinions in general: https://www.reddit.com/user/SexyCyborg/comments/?sort=top