The Google Home Mini Is Google’s $49 Answer to the Echo Dot(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
The Google Home Mini Is Google’s $49 Answer to the Echo Dot
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/10/the-google-home-mini-is-googles-answer-to-amazons-echo-dot/
45 comments
I choose Amazon for this because they are dedicated to it, it's a contributor to thei e-commerce business, and there is plenty of reason to believe they will still work a few years from now.
I have no such belief with Google in this case, it's one hobby among many disconnected from their main business. It is search but not web search.
I'm also building a snips.co device and am very interested in offline speach recognition both for pricacy and utility reasons.
I have no such belief with Google in this case, it's one hobby among many disconnected from their main business. It is search but not web search.
I'm also building a snips.co device and am very interested in offline speach recognition both for pricacy and utility reasons.
Google has voice-based functionality pretty deeply embedded into Android - I really don't think it's going anywhere.
By contrast, I chose a Google Home over an Alexa because I think Google is better at AI - I am consistently surprised by how many random questions the Home can answer.
By contrast, I chose a Google Home over an Alexa because I think Google is better at AI - I am consistently surprised by how many random questions the Home can answer.
Yeah, Google is really throwing their weight behind "AI". It seems like it's the most likely candidate that could eventually replace search as their "main product".
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Google not serious/dedicated about voice-based search?
I can buy the argument that they are not as dedicated as Amazon when it comes to selling stuff via voice, but search via voice? They have been at it for like a decade already.
I can buy the argument that they are not as dedicated as Amazon when it comes to selling stuff via voice, but search via voice? They have been at it for like a decade already.
Like Amazon stuck with their phone?
As a dad, my killer app on Google Home is playing youtube audio/video. Alexa can't match it. Then almost all the integrations I care are already available on Google Home - Smarthings and Nest.
I tried multiple times playing Alexa, it doesn't come close to Google Home's voice recognition capabilities.
I tried multiple times playing Alexa, it doesn't come close to Google Home's voice recognition capabilities.
Well, first, this is my opinion.
I do agree that they are dedicated to AI and voice and will make that central to their search offerings.
What I haven't seen from them is dedication to one particular version or variation of anything for more than a few years. It was Google Talk, then what Hangouts, and now Hello, which is also how you talk to bots, but if you want to talk to the Assistant, that's OK, Google.
I don't want hardware were the API is just shutdown because they 'retired' this and went on to something new.
The YouTube use-case sounds useful, particularly with Chromecast, and I wish I could do that with Alexa, but then giants must always butt heads.
As far as snips, I prefer to have more control of this type of solution, but building-your-own-airplane takes time that $50 on an Echo Dot does not. (Google had no similarly priced offering at that time.)
I do agree that they are dedicated to AI and voice and will make that central to their search offerings.
What I haven't seen from them is dedication to one particular version or variation of anything for more than a few years. It was Google Talk, then what Hangouts, and now Hello, which is also how you talk to bots, but if you want to talk to the Assistant, that's OK, Google.
I don't want hardware were the API is just shutdown because they 'retired' this and went on to something new.
The YouTube use-case sounds useful, particularly with Chromecast, and I wish I could do that with Alexa, but then giants must always butt heads.
As far as snips, I prefer to have more control of this type of solution, but building-your-own-airplane takes time that $50 on an Echo Dot does not. (Google had no similarly priced offering at that time.)
Is Google twice as smart as Siri?
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/google-ai-has-almost-twice-t...
I’m considering adding one of these to my family of iOS devices. Siri is cool when it works, but I’d like something a little better. That, and I won’t have to watch my watch, phone, and tablet competing to answer my questions.
Finally, and most importantly, according to the article, Google appears to be improving the fastest.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/02/google-ai-has-almost-twice-t...
I’m considering adding one of these to my family of iOS devices. Siri is cool when it works, but I’d like something a little better. That, and I won’t have to watch my watch, phone, and tablet competing to answer my questions.
Finally, and most importantly, according to the article, Google appears to be improving the fastest.
I love and use our 2 google homes on a daily basis, but they get significantly more useful if you are in google's ecosystem and have home automation.
For me, i'd give a super rough guess at my usage like this:
* 60% home automation (turning on and off lights when hands are full, ensuring doors are locked and garage door is closed, running "shortcuts" like "i'm leaving" which will lock up and arm the alarm in 5 minutes, etc...)
* 15% playing and controlling music/tv shows on various devices in the house (tv's with chromecasts, the home itself, etc...)
* 10% as a shopping list (it makes a damn good shopping list and it's nice as hell to be able to just yell at the thing to add "frosted mini wheats to the shopping list" the second you run out and have it synced to the whole family's phones)
* 9% as a "day planner" of sorts. Generally each morning I tell it "good morning" and it tells me the weather, things on my calendar, and starts playing some news snippets I setup.
* 5% for timers/alarms (really useful while cooking to be able to shout at it to start a timer for 15 minutes then walk away)
* 1% for the dumb trivia lookups/random information. Stuff like "how many calories in X?" or "when was the Apple II released?"
For me, i'd give a super rough guess at my usage like this:
* 60% home automation (turning on and off lights when hands are full, ensuring doors are locked and garage door is closed, running "shortcuts" like "i'm leaving" which will lock up and arm the alarm in 5 minutes, etc...)
* 15% playing and controlling music/tv shows on various devices in the house (tv's with chromecasts, the home itself, etc...)
* 10% as a shopping list (it makes a damn good shopping list and it's nice as hell to be able to just yell at the thing to add "frosted mini wheats to the shopping list" the second you run out and have it synced to the whole family's phones)
* 9% as a "day planner" of sorts. Generally each morning I tell it "good morning" and it tells me the weather, things on my calendar, and starts playing some news snippets I setup.
* 5% for timers/alarms (really useful while cooking to be able to shout at it to start a timer for 15 minutes then walk away)
* 1% for the dumb trivia lookups/random information. Stuff like "how many calories in X?" or "when was the Apple II released?"
Does it have a good shopping list? I've had a Home since they were released and used to use the shopping list feature all the time when it was backed by Keep.
At one point they moved it into some web app that I could only access from my phone by spelunking through the Home app. Has that changed?
When it worked, it was great.
At one point they moved it into some web app that I could only access from my phone by spelunking through the Home app. Has that changed?
When it worked, it was great.
It's in the "Google Express" app now (both a web app, as well as a "native" app).
I didn't like that change, but it does work just as well now, and keeps all the same features (checking it off, manually adding stuff, sharing with friends/family members, etc...).
I do wish they kept it in keep, and even allowed more "lists". Being able to tell it to add a book to my "reading list" would have been fantastic...
I didn't like that change, but it does work just as well now, and keeps all the same features (checking it off, manually adding stuff, sharing with friends/family members, etc...).
I do wish they kept it in keep, and even allowed more "lists". Being able to tell it to add a book to my "reading list" would have been fantastic...
I had no idea this Google Express app existed (It's not available in my region of the world).
It's a shame they force you to use it, over just adding to a shopping list in Google Keep.
I was considering getting the Home Mini but now I'm not so sure (grocery list, weather check, and general help (timer/conversions) while cooking would have been my main usage)
It's a shame they force you to use it, over just adding to a shopping list in Google Keep.
I was considering getting the Home Mini but now I'm not so sure (grocery list, weather check, and general help (timer/conversions) while cooking would have been my main usage)
There are ways out there using 3rd party services to get the old way back, but I haven't messed with them.
Offtopic perhaps, but that's the one feature I regularly use on the Alexa. "Alexa, add milk to my shopping list" is such a common occurrence in this house that we haven't switched off of the Alexa even though that's basically the only thing I use it for, and even though Amazon keeps making the shopping list worse with every product iteration.
Sorry to be the luddite, but these devices just seem like first-world-only interest to me.
I have no desire to automate my house (I can see why others do). I don't have a home alarm. I have one TV in the house for several kids.
The day planner/shopping list is good, but I pull out my phone instead and speak to it (when I press home button).
Finally, is everyone really comfortable having always-on listening in their home? The convenience/creepy ratio just doesn't seem prudent for me. It's amusing to see how privacy oriented HN is yet these devices are so popular here - they're an unaudited vector into your most private moments.
I have no desire to automate my house (I can see why others do). I don't have a home alarm. I have one TV in the house for several kids.
The day planner/shopping list is good, but I pull out my phone instead and speak to it (when I press home button).
Finally, is everyone really comfortable having always-on listening in their home? The convenience/creepy ratio just doesn't seem prudent for me. It's amusing to see how privacy oriented HN is yet these devices are so popular here - they're an unaudited vector into your most private moments.
Well I can tell you why I'm okay with it. Google says (and i've somewhat validated) that data isn't sent to their servers until you say the "keyword". And they do allow you to view and delete any previously sent speech from your account, and I do trust them about that as the backlash from not actually deleting it when they said they would could be pretty bad (and they could be in some pretty deep legal trouble as well).
And if the worry is that they can update it to be "always recording and uploading", they (or another adversary) can already do that with the other phones, laptops, and other devices in the house (most likely more easily).
It's a tradeoff, but it's one that I and my family are comfortable making. Just like how you can choose to not go outside and keep your privacy that way, I find the benefits and usefulness of these products are worth the loss in privacy for me. And that loss in privacy is controllable by me (they can be turned off, unplugged, or shut down whenever I want).
That being said, things like the home-automation are as local as possible. Everything is run via local-network-only systems (zwave, wifi, bluetooth, zigbee), and then "external" systems are added on (like the google home). So i'm not trusting quite as much as people assume I am to some other company, and there are things I will not trust to 3rd parties (like i'm still not comfortable putting surveillance camera footage on anything I don't own myself).
And if the worry is that they can update it to be "always recording and uploading", they (or another adversary) can already do that with the other phones, laptops, and other devices in the house (most likely more easily).
It's a tradeoff, but it's one that I and my family are comfortable making. Just like how you can choose to not go outside and keep your privacy that way, I find the benefits and usefulness of these products are worth the loss in privacy for me. And that loss in privacy is controllable by me (they can be turned off, unplugged, or shut down whenever I want).
That being said, things like the home-automation are as local as possible. Everything is run via local-network-only systems (zwave, wifi, bluetooth, zigbee), and then "external" systems are added on (like the google home). So i'm not trusting quite as much as people assume I am to some other company, and there are things I will not trust to 3rd parties (like i'm still not comfortable putting surveillance camera footage on anything I don't own myself).
What's the difference between having something like Google Home in your home and carrying a cell phone in your pocket, other than the fact that the cell phone can listen in on you even when you're away from home?
I really don't get why everyone carries listening devices 24/7 and then freaks out about these smart speakers.
I really don't get why everyone carries listening devices 24/7 and then freaks out about these smart speakers.
One is designed to be listening at all times, the other one may not even have the explicit capability (I turn off voice-activated Google/Siri on all my devices).
Trigger words can be accidentally spoken, they can be spoken by other devices, etc. Hidden trigger words can exist.
I think it's logical fallacy of extremes to say that carrying an e.g. iPhone is an equivalent security exposure to having GoogleHome/HomePod/Echos littered around your house, just because they both "could" be hacked/backdoored.
Trigger words can be accidentally spoken, they can be spoken by other devices, etc. Hidden trigger words can exist.
I think it's logical fallacy of extremes to say that carrying an e.g. iPhone is an equivalent security exposure to having GoogleHome/HomePod/Echos littered around your house, just because they both "could" be hacked/backdoored.
Many (most? all?) modern smartphones are designed to be listening at all times too.
You turn this off on all your devices. Do you trust the manufacturer to actually stop listening when you do?
I don’t see how it’s a logical fallacy to point out that there’s another device with the same capablilities that most of the complainers don’t give a second thought to. I really don’t understand how the risk from something like Google Home is any higher than the risk from a smartphone.
You turn this off on all your devices. Do you trust the manufacturer to actually stop listening when you do?
I don’t see how it’s a logical fallacy to point out that there’s another device with the same capablilities that most of the complainers don’t give a second thought to. I really don’t understand how the risk from something like Google Home is any higher than the risk from a smartphone.
Saying that phones "could" be hacked/backdoored is no more of a fallacy than saying Hidden trigger words "can" exist.
> It's amusing to see how privacy oriented HN is yet these devices are so popular here - they're an unaudited vector into your most private moments.
HN is an echo chamber where it's not even worth talking about trade-offs when it comes to privacy, all I ever get from it is downvotes.
HN is an echo chamber where it's not even worth talking about trade-offs when it comes to privacy, all I ever get from it is downvotes.
> Sorry to be the luddite, but these devices just seem like first-world-only interest to me.
Probably mostly, but so what? The first world is over a billion people.
Probably mostly, but so what? The first world is over a billion people.
Can you tell me more about this "ensure garage door is closed" thing? Is there something I can buy to make that happen, or do you have some sort of home brewed thing?
Well there is at least one "off the shelf-ish" solution from Chamberlain's "MY-Q" system.
But i'm using a z-wave garage door opener (there are tons of them that hook into most garage door openers) running off a system called "Home Assistant" which is an open-source python-3 based hub for home automation stuff.
The google home can then send commands to home assistant which can do whatever i want there.
So I just have a command for "open the garage door" and a command for "close the garage door" (open as well because your phone can run them as well via Google Assistant there, so I use it as an opener when I'm on my motorcycle via a bluetooth headset in my helmet)
And doing it that way I can also integrate a "close garage door" command into other commands (like "i'm going to sleep" which ensures everything is locked up, or "i'm leaving" which can open it now, then close it again in 5 minutes if I forget to, or other fancy stuff like if there is no movement in the house for an hour, lock up the doors/close the garage if I forgot.)
But i'm using a z-wave garage door opener (there are tons of them that hook into most garage door openers) running off a system called "Home Assistant" which is an open-source python-3 based hub for home automation stuff.
The google home can then send commands to home assistant which can do whatever i want there.
So I just have a command for "open the garage door" and a command for "close the garage door" (open as well because your phone can run them as well via Google Assistant there, so I use it as an opener when I'm on my motorcycle via a bluetooth headset in my helmet)
And doing it that way I can also integrate a "close garage door" command into other commands (like "i'm going to sleep" which ensures everything is locked up, or "i'm leaving" which can open it now, then close it again in 5 minutes if I forget to, or other fancy stuff like if there is no movement in the house for an hour, lock up the doors/close the garage if I forgot.)
Neat, thanks!
I like the idea but I call foul at generalizing this result.
> Google's artificial intelligence technology has a considerably higher I.Q. than Apple's Siri virtual assistant,
This is device specific, and was done with phones, not home assistants. The google home device might be less intelligent, if it has lower local compute. This is also highly dependent on the quality of the microphone.
Finally, I suspect both companies are re-training the 'nets often, so these results are in flux.
> Google's artificial intelligence technology has a considerably higher I.Q. than Apple's Siri virtual assistant,
This is device specific, and was done with phones, not home assistants. The google home device might be less intelligent, if it has lower local compute. This is also highly dependent on the quality of the microphone.
Finally, I suspect both companies are re-training the 'nets often, so these results are in flux.
All requests are sent to the cloud for both services, there is no relevant local compute
> The google home device might be less intelligent, if it has lower local compute.
Other than some minor sound processing, does any of the assistant behavior on either Google Home or phones actually happen locally?
Other than some minor sound processing, does any of the assistant behavior on either Google Home or phones actually happen locally?
I have no idea about the home, but Google has been "pioneering" (I don't actually know if they are a first here) "federated machine learning".
This lets them use a model trained on their systems, but improve it with real usage on the device without needing to send the data back to google.
Essentially it's a private version of machine learning that doesn't need to send anything back to the server to still get most of the benefits.
I know Google is using it for their "smart replies" and I think in their keyboard app already on phones, so there is a chance they could be applying it more widely to some responses locally on the Home devices.
This lets them use a model trained on their systems, but improve it with real usage on the device without needing to send the data back to google.
Essentially it's a private version of machine learning that doesn't need to send anything back to the server to still get most of the benefits.
I know Google is using it for their "smart replies" and I think in their keyboard app already on phones, so there is a chance they could be applying it more widely to some responses locally on the Home devices.
I'm curious when this starts to matter. I would guess most normal, non tech, people just don't ask much of these voice devices now. Mostly asking them for countdown timers, weather, playing a song, and maybe a few other things. Not because the devices can't do more, but because the customer isn't expecting them to.
Well even for the more "simple" things federated learning can improve the experience. Lower power usage, less latency, and in some cases improved privacy.
And some kind of "smart" parsing of voice is still required. I don't like having to say things a specific way to get the machine to understand them, and as the "smart" stuff gets smarter, it gets easier to use even for simple tasks.
Before I could ask "whats the weather" and get a generic answer, now I can ask "what's the weather tonight", "what time will it rain", "will it be really cold tomorrow morning", or even "what temperature is it in here" (asking specifically what temperature my indoor temperature is).
There is a TON of work that goes into getting all of that to work, but it's not really a "feature" you can point to easily, even though it makes the product significantly better than alternatives. And being able to do all of that without needing the extra latency of a round trip to a google server would be an improvement.
And some kind of "smart" parsing of voice is still required. I don't like having to say things a specific way to get the machine to understand them, and as the "smart" stuff gets smarter, it gets easier to use even for simple tasks.
Before I could ask "whats the weather" and get a generic answer, now I can ask "what's the weather tonight", "what time will it rain", "will it be really cold tomorrow morning", or even "what temperature is it in here" (asking specifically what temperature my indoor temperature is).
There is a TON of work that goes into getting all of that to work, but it's not really a "feature" you can point to easily, even though it makes the product significantly better than alternatives. And being able to do all of that without needing the extra latency of a round trip to a google server would be an improvement.
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Does it have a headphone socket? All I want from my google home devices is better control over the audio, and it seems the only way I can do that is plug it into my own amp.
Edit. Nope. However the latest software lets you change default audio device for media playback to a chromecast audio. That's halfway there - what I'd like is to redirect the entire audio stream (so spoken answers too!)
Alternatively, can we get a software update to add EQ on the google home? At moderate volumes my neighbours can hear the bass through the walls for a home :(
Edit. Nope. However the latest software lets you change default audio device for media playback to a chromecast audio. That's halfway there - what I'd like is to redirect the entire audio stream (so spoken answers too!)
Alternatively, can we get a software update to add EQ on the google home? At moderate volumes my neighbours can hear the bass through the walls for a home :(
The Echo Dot does and I do exactly this Spotify (from everything) going to the dot -> amp -> speakers.
It works well.
It works well.
It doesn't. It might support bluetooth headphones, as the tech specs indicate that it does have Bluetooth and WiFi, but the only physical port, sadly, is Micro-USB, which is weird to me that it isn't USB-C.
I keep hoping that one of these magic boxes we keep seeing is going to be implemented with an optical port so that I'll have a viable replacement for my Sonos, but I guess I'm back to waiting for Sonos to integrate Google Home or Alexa or whatever they plan to integrate for me to get everything tied in.
Edit: I guess if I'd checked my email a little bit earlier, I might have noticed that they apparently just started preorders for the Sonos One with Alexa integrated.
http://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/one.html
I keep hoping that one of these magic boxes we keep seeing is going to be implemented with an optical port so that I'll have a viable replacement for my Sonos, but I guess I'm back to waiting for Sonos to integrate Google Home or Alexa or whatever they plan to integrate for me to get everything tied in.
Edit: I guess if I'd checked my email a little bit earlier, I might have noticed that they apparently just started preorders for the Sonos One with Alexa integrated.
http://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/one.html
I want to use my Google Home more but don't because of the bass. Its been a year and the most basic features aren't even out there yet. (I should have known better)
Google Home Max : "it also has an auxiliary port so you can connect it to a turntable or other speaker".
No, that's only for audio in to play with the Max's speakers. What he wants is audio out to play google's responses on something else (Which is a feature of the Echo Dot, so you can use a better speaker)
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I notice on the tech spec's page that the Mini also has bluetooth [0]. Would love to know if this means all connected homes will play (the same) audio via bluetooth.
[0] https://store.google.com/product/google_home_mini_specs
[0] https://store.google.com/product/google_home_mini_specs
It's unfortunate the amazing advances Google's been making with its ml software are being packaged up into a bunch of happenstance hardware offerings.
I want all this siloing to disappear and fricken make technology better.