Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe(europe.autonews.com)
europe.autonews.com
Tesla Model S outsells German luxury flagships in Europe
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/tesla-model-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe
168 comments
I have no idea why the Model S sales numbers are being compared to cars like the 7 series by laypeople too.
Even from a layman’s perspective... have these people driven a 7 series? They’re more quiet highway cruising than the Model S I test drove... until you feel like making them noisy, then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life... if that’s your thing.
The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price
Even from a layman’s perspective... have these people driven a 7 series? They’re more quiet highway cruising than the Model S I test drove... until you feel like making them noisy, then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life... if that’s your thing.
The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price
> The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price
The last Model S I drove in was more like a Camry on some of the interior detailing.
Push down on the dash of a Tesla, listen to the creaking of flexing plastic. Do the same in a mid/high range Audi/MB/BMW.
Look at the gaps in trim detail on the door liner.
Give the center console a wiggle.
It's not -bad-, but it's not as polished, high quality, as some would like to believe.
The last Model S I drove in was more like a Camry on some of the interior detailing.
Push down on the dash of a Tesla, listen to the creaking of flexing plastic. Do the same in a mid/high range Audi/MB/BMW.
Look at the gaps in trim detail on the door liner.
Give the center console a wiggle.
It's not -bad-, but it's not as polished, high quality, as some would like to believe.
I was being very forgiving and including size in that comparison.
I couldn’t stomach paying S Class money for the thing and went with a Volt, which is at least priced to match its trim (And it was a lot better than I expected when well optioned)
I couldn’t stomach paying S Class money for the thing and went with a Volt, which is at least priced to match its trim (And it was a lot better than I expected when well optioned)
Yep and I bet 90% of the time you don't go beyond the battery range and drive it like it's an electric anyways.
Having a huge 60kwh battery is great and all, but if I only use it 10% of the time, why would I want to pay another $10k for it? Better to just use gas occasionally. Love my Volt.
Having a huge 60kwh battery is great and all, but if I only use it 10% of the time, why would I want to pay another $10k for it? Better to just use gas occasionally. Love my Volt.
You might note that Bolt sells better than the Volt -- a surprise to me, but in general plug-in hybrids just aren't that popular with the car-buying public.
Only in the US. In Canada the Volt continued to outsell the Bolt all year. Then again, with supply limited it's hard to make any kind of analysis.
But they're confusing to people and also GM doesn't market either of these cars.
But they're confusing to people and also GM doesn't market either of these cars.
GM gets valuable EV credits for selling Volt/Bolt in California and all of the other US states in the club. Not surprisingly, they stock and market both cars more in those states.
I don't think Canada has an EV sales requirement yet.
I don't think Canada has an EV sales requirement yet.
Quebec does.
Ontario has a high subsidy.
To their credit, GM sells in all the provinces regardless. Once QC enacted California-style minimums, Ford stopped selling EVs in other provinces and allocated their inventory only to QC. That's a pretty dick move.
Ontario has a high subsidy.
To their credit, GM sells in all the provinces regardless. Once QC enacted California-style minimums, Ford stopped selling EVs in other provinces and allocated their inventory only to QC. That's a pretty dick move.
Yeah, it was similar in the US, in the sense that GM released Bolt first in California, then the other states with the EV requirement, and then at the end released them in other states at the same price. That last part was a pleasant surprise, because apparently GM loses money on every Bolt, and loses even more money when they sell Bolts in states without the EV requirement.
Interior decoration is a somewhat strange criterion to apply in the choice between contemporary technology and dinosaur ditto.
When you consider that the primary difference is ICE vs Electric, that's about where your "dinosaur" analogy ends.
All of those vehicles have similar technology to the Tesla, if not more: road sign comprehension, active steering, driving assistance (autonomy), side collision avoidance, auto parking, online maps.
And when your market segmentation is "high end", "luxury" as it is here, why _wouldn't_ interior decoration, quality and features be considered?
All of those vehicles have similar technology to the Tesla, if not more: road sign comprehension, active steering, driving assistance (autonomy), side collision avoidance, auto parking, online maps.
And when your market segmentation is "high end", "luxury" as it is here, why _wouldn't_ interior decoration, quality and features be considered?
You're looking at gaps and clearances not necessarily because you don't want your car to continually insult your eyes, but rather to gauge the manufacturers ability to build things. If a car manufacturer can't get something as simple(1) as the clearance of doors right, how in the world would you trust them to get any of the more critical aspects right?!
(1) Actually a hugely refined and seriously complex process involving dozens of companies which have been doing this for decades, at least for the German ones.
(1) Actually a hugely refined and seriously complex process involving dozens of companies which have been doing this for decades, at least for the German ones.
> If a car manufacturer can't get something as simple(1) as the clearance of doors right, how in the world would you trust them to get any of the more critical aspects right?!
I can imagine lots of cars:
One where the insides are junk, but they put all their effort into making the surface of the interior perfect
One where the interior is total crap, but they obsessed over the drivetrain until everything purred like a kitten
One where the whole thing is junk
One where every detail was obsessed over.
... which of these categories are you saying doesn't exist? Both of the first two?
I can imagine lots of cars:
One where the insides are junk, but they put all their effort into making the surface of the interior perfect
One where the interior is total crap, but they obsessed over the drivetrain until everything purred like a kitten
One where the whole thing is junk
One where every detail was obsessed over.
... which of these categories are you saying doesn't exist? Both of the first two?
100% of the time spend driving is inside the car.
Hence it is very important that manufacturers focus on the in car experience more so than exterior. And in this respect Tesla is pathetic. There really isn't a better word to describe how Tesla can offer cheap-Korean interior quality at the prices they do.
Hence it is very important that manufacturers focus on the in car experience more so than exterior. And in this respect Tesla is pathetic. There really isn't a better word to describe how Tesla can offer cheap-Korean interior quality at the prices they do.
Is it possible that Tesla buyers aren't as concerned with the interior as you are?
No-one's saying they have to be. Just that you can't really claim with a straight face "Oh, it competes with German luxury flagships and wins... if you aren't concerned with interiors" (or ignore that most of the tech is similar, and really that the singular difference in many respects is the lack of ICE).
I can't really claim that I like what I like?
I'm not supposed to disagree with your opinion that "the singular difference in many respects is the lack of ICE"?
I mean, I've always been aware that many people don't like Tesla's interiors, and don't place much value in the things that Tesla owners place value in. Heck, I'm sure a majority of people don't agree with my opinions.
But I wasn't aware until now that my opinion was invalid.
I'm not supposed to disagree with your opinion that "the singular difference in many respects is the lack of ICE"?
I mean, I've always been aware that many people don't like Tesla's interiors, and don't place much value in the things that Tesla owners place value in. Heck, I'm sure a majority of people don't agree with my opinions.
But I wasn't aware until now that my opinion was invalid.
Your opinion isn't invalid. But what are some of these other differences that make Tesla "contemporary" and 7 series, S class, A8Ls "dinosaurs"?
That's easy to answer: I didn't say either.
If you'd like to know what I, personally, find awesome about Model S, it's the quiet straight-line acceleration, the modernistic interior design, and that it doesn't burn dinosaur juice. (I know people dispute all of these, but those are my personal favorites.)
If you'd like to know what I, personally, find awesome about Model S, it's the quiet straight-line acceleration, the modernistic interior design, and that it doesn't burn dinosaur juice. (I know people dispute all of these, but those are my personal favorites.)
What car would you point to that has all of the software and robotics features of the Model X, except the electric drivetrain?
I'm not an expert on the whole car market, but I don't think any other car has a huge touchscreen, and the modernist/minimalist interior is also unusual. If you recall earlier discussions of this car, lots of people don't like either.
Both of these things certainly could be done by other car companies.
Both of these things certainly could be done by other car companies.
[deleted]
Thanks for all the downvotes; I seem to have hit a raw nerve here.
Opinions and value systems obviously differ. I've been a professional driver on and off for years and years, and I honestly couldn't care less about the finish of the dashboard, as long as it performs whatever it's supposed to perform.
My personal only reason, apart from the money, which I haven't got, for not wanting a Tesla (or any other modern high-end car, really) would be all the idiotic phoning home stuff.
The electric versus dead dinasaur question is settled beyond dispute. Combustion is twentieth century, period.
Opinions and value systems obviously differ. I've been a professional driver on and off for years and years, and I honestly couldn't care less about the finish of the dashboard, as long as it performs whatever it's supposed to perform.
My personal only reason, apart from the money, which I haven't got, for not wanting a Tesla (or any other modern high-end car, really) would be all the idiotic phoning home stuff.
The electric versus dead dinasaur question is settled beyond dispute. Combustion is twentieth century, period.
What you're saying is you would take any electric car, no matter how poorly built, no matter how expensive, over a cheaper, higher quality gasoline-powered car. And not only that, but you'd take that expensive and poorly-built electric car over cheaper electric cars with similar build quality just because of a brand name.
Yes. Yes that is a controversial opinion, especially when combined with the phrasing you continue to choose. And the fact that you're this hostile but then admit you don't own one and can't afford to own one, yet you look down your nose at anyone who doesn't own one.
Yes. Yes that is a controversial opinion, especially when combined with the phrasing you continue to choose. And the fact that you're this hostile but then admit you don't own one and can't afford to own one, yet you look down your nose at anyone who doesn't own one.
No idea whose nose I'm supposed to be looking down. I simple consider combustion engines outdated technology. I'm leaving it behind whenever electric begins to match my finansial range.
As for the supposed hostility, I'll let other judge between you and me.
As for the supposed hostility, I'll let other judge between you and me.
First of all, I completely agree that the E class is more on par with the Model S, and the S class is significantly more luxurious.
With that said, I do think it's interesting that the Model S has S class pricing and is outselling the S class despite being decidedly much less luxurious.
I'd say many people spending upwards of $85k-$100k+ on a car don't just want luxury -- they want social status. And right now a brand new upgraded Model S is more attention-grabbing than a Mercedes S class.
With that said, I do think it's interesting that the Model S has S class pricing and is outselling the S class despite being decidedly much less luxurious.
I'd say many people spending upwards of $85k-$100k+ on a car don't just want luxury -- they want social status. And right now a brand new upgraded Model S is more attention-grabbing than a Mercedes S class.
Really, Price is the only thing you can compare.
If you want complete luxury: S-Class, A7/A8, or 7-Series are going to be decidedly better in every way, at a similar price bracket. To be honest, Tesla doesn't even compete in this category.
If you want the status symbol: Maybe Tesla is the best. You'd also probably be cross-shopping a Panamera or maybe an XJ.
If you want performance: The best will be an E63S, RS5 (kind of a different category), or M5. A P100D is stupidly fast off the line, but most enthusiasts don't put it in the same class as high-end german performance cars due to driving dynamics and the price. It gets an honorable mention.
If you want tech: Tesla, Audi, or the Cadillac CT6. Tesla wins on automated driving, but Cadillac isn't far behind at all. Audi has some of that, but their interior tech is easily on-par with Tesla when you option it out.
If you want all of them: You'll need to go upmarket. The RS7 would qualify, especially the refreshed 2019 model, but really you'll have to enter "optioned out Porsche" territory ($150k+) and even then you'll make sacrifices in the tech department.
There are a few generalities you can make, though: First, BMW isn't as competitive as they used to be. MB and Audi have recently started outpacing them in most categories. Second, Tesla definitely isn't competitive at its price bracket without tax incentives, unless all you care about is how other people perceive you, which can't really be quantified like the other categories.
If you want complete luxury: S-Class, A7/A8, or 7-Series are going to be decidedly better in every way, at a similar price bracket. To be honest, Tesla doesn't even compete in this category.
If you want the status symbol: Maybe Tesla is the best. You'd also probably be cross-shopping a Panamera or maybe an XJ.
If you want performance: The best will be an E63S, RS5 (kind of a different category), or M5. A P100D is stupidly fast off the line, but most enthusiasts don't put it in the same class as high-end german performance cars due to driving dynamics and the price. It gets an honorable mention.
If you want tech: Tesla, Audi, or the Cadillac CT6. Tesla wins on automated driving, but Cadillac isn't far behind at all. Audi has some of that, but their interior tech is easily on-par with Tesla when you option it out.
If you want all of them: You'll need to go upmarket. The RS7 would qualify, especially the refreshed 2019 model, but really you'll have to enter "optioned out Porsche" territory ($150k+) and even then you'll make sacrifices in the tech department.
There are a few generalities you can make, though: First, BMW isn't as competitive as they used to be. MB and Audi have recently started outpacing them in most categories. Second, Tesla definitely isn't competitive at its price bracket without tax incentives, unless all you care about is how other people perceive you, which can't really be quantified like the other categories.
It's mostly a tax issue. The operating costs of a Tesla can be much lower because of very favorable tax breaks, which is one of the main reasons the Tesla sold so well in Norway and The Netherlands (my home country), and why so many of them are fleet (lease) vehicles. Taxis alone account for a substantial fraction of all those sales.
We'll see if that trend continues in 2018, there have been some substantial changes in the taxes regarding electrical cars in NL, not sure about Norway.
We'll see if that trend continues in 2018, there have been some substantial changes in the taxes regarding electrical cars in NL, not sure about Norway.
I didn't fully appreciate the significance of that point at first but now I think I do. It appears that in Norway in particular a Model S can be significantly cheaper than a 7 series or S class.
Most definitely in Norway, Model S is significantly cheaper than E-class or 5-series, too.
It's probably just the novelty / cool factor. People buy Teslas mostly as a second car, while that's probably a rare thing to do with an S-class Merc.
> then you can floor it and hear a V12 roar to life
For realsies? Or is it just a soundtrack?
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound...
For realsies? Or is it just a soundtrack?
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound...
According to your link it is the actual engine but played over the stereo. As if the car doesn't have windows :)
I can totally see how this will eventually play out the way you describe it though, and worse, maybe they'll end up putting speakers on the outside as well.
I can totally see how this will eventually play out the way you describe it though, and worse, maybe they'll end up putting speakers on the outside as well.
The article confuses two things, fake noises generated by speakers, and real noises tuned/directed into specific parts of the cabin.
A 7 series might be insulated enough that the models that come with V6 and V8s need some artificial help, but the V12 is loud enough that any generated sounds are just overkill, it’s a very throaty engine... if you want it to be
A 7 series might be insulated enough that the models that come with V6 and V8s need some artificial help, but the V12 is loud enough that any generated sounds are just overkill, it’s a very throaty engine... if you want it to be
The article doesn't seem to confuse them. It literally explains the approaches used on the models they covered.
When I say the article I’m specifically referring to the title and some language at the start.
It starts off like it’s talking about fake sounds, then goes into differentiating. The comment the person linking made sounds like they were slightly mislead by that.
It starts off like it’s talking about fake sounds, then goes into differentiating. The comment the person linking made sounds like they were slightly mislead by that.
> The Model S is more like a 5 series E Class in quality, strange that it gets slotted with cars solely on price
No, that is not strange at all.
No, that is not strange at all.
> No, that is not strange at all.
It is less quality that makes it strange than dimensions of the vehicles. Tesla is not the length of an S Class or 7 series. It is the length of an E Class or 5 series.
5 series, E Class, Model S are ~ 195 inches long
7 series and S Class are ~206 inches long.
It is less quality that makes it strange than dimensions of the vehicles. Tesla is not the length of an S Class or 7 series. It is the length of an E Class or 5 series.
5 series, E Class, Model S are ~ 195 inches long
7 series and S Class are ~206 inches long.
No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.
Price is a far more significant from of differentiation than random specs. The average person buying a Honda Civic can't afford a Model S, but the average person buying a Model S can afford to buy an S Class. People talk about market segments because they are meaningfully different.
That said, taxes, maintenance, and fuel differences do make a Model S cheaper to own and operate. So they arguably have significantly different prices.
Price is a far more significant from of differentiation than random specs. The average person buying a Honda Civic can't afford a Model S, but the average person buying a Model S can afford to buy an S Class. People talk about market segments because they are meaningfully different.
That said, taxes, maintenance, and fuel differences do make a Model S cheaper to own and operate. So they arguably have significantly different prices.
They have significantly different prices to produce, as well. The all-electric drivetrain costs less than an AMG supercharged V12. The BMW and the Mercedes have the same costs, so you can directly compare then, but the Model S does not.
I think what we're both saying is that the big gas-engine luxury car segment is different from whatever new segment the Tesla Model S has created.
But the point is that the new segment is taking buyers from the old.
I think what we're both saying is that the big gas-engine luxury car segment is different from whatever new segment the Tesla Model S has created.
But the point is that the new segment is taking buyers from the old.
I don't know. Battery costs are currently massive, so Model S might cost more to manufacture. R&D and advertising also make the direct profit comparisons tricky.
Have you seen a good direct comparison?
Have you seen a good direct comparison?
I'm a little more forgiving than most on HN.
I'm sure that the cars that BMW cranked out in its third year of production weren't the same as today's BMW's, either.
When Tesla's been doing this for a decade, then I'll hold their feet a little closer to the fire. For right now, it's a company learning how to build cars; and from that perspective, it seems to be doing a pretty good job.
I'm sure that the cars that BMW cranked out in its third year of production weren't the same as today's BMW's, either.
When Tesla's been doing this for a decade, then I'll hold their feet a little closer to the fire. For right now, it's a company learning how to build cars; and from that perspective, it seems to be doing a pretty good job.
I can certainly understand the challenges that a new entrant in a field like car manufacturing faces, and I agree that Tesla has generally done a good job. However, for a general consumer who isn't buying a product to support the mission/company/tech or whatever you want to call it, it's less clear why they would care about that. If <legacy manufacturer> and Tesla both produce cars for $X, it's not unreasonable to do a direct comparison, certainly including reliability, QA, etc. when deciding who earns that $X.
Also Tesla has, in fact, been producing vehicles for a decade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2008)
If you prefer not to count the Roadster as they used the Lotus gliders, the Model S has been out for 6 years as of this summer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S
Also Tesla has, in fact, been producing vehicles for a decade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2008)
If you prefer not to count the Roadster as they used the Lotus gliders, the Model S has been out for 6 years as of this summer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S
Honestly, it feels more like an A4 or 3-series in quality based on US trims of these cars. It certainly wasn't more luxurious than a C-class.
It’s being compared to cars in the same size class. Typically people who are buying the Model S would have bought a 7 series or S class, not a 5 or an E. it’s a very expensive car. Similarly Model 3 should be compared to BMW 3 series and Mercedes E class as those are the products a different consumer might be choosing between. It’s not really meaningful to compare sales between cars with dramatically different pricing because the price obviously affects demand.
Tesla does not have many of the “luxuries” that BMW has, but it has other benefits like better technology and 0 emissions. The news is that faced with that choice, many consumers are choosing Tesla over a 7 series and it’s quiet cabin.
Tesla does not have many of the “luxuries” that BMW has, but it has other benefits like better technology and 0 emissions. The news is that faced with that choice, many consumers are choosing Tesla over a 7 series and it’s quiet cabin.
If you talk to Tesla owners, you'll find that their thing is flooring it and NOT making a roar.
Flooring any car from 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds will be loud. The ludicrous mode launch we did wasn’t silent either.
What they really appreciate on a day to day basis is quiet cruising, yet the 7 series out does it in that department.
What they really appreciate on a day to day basis is quiet cruising, yet the 7 series out does it in that department.
I was actually referring to starts from stop signs and stop lights where you don't get near to 60mph. Also, tire noise (poorly damped from inside a Tesla, admittedly) is quite different from engine roar (damped or not.) From talking to other Tesla owners, I'm expressing a fairly common sentiment.
For normal starts the 7 series is quieter than the Model S for total noise so I didn’t think it was worth bringing up.
I'm mainly concerned with people outside the car. Also, breakthrough noise is completely different from tire noise, which is why it's called "breakthrough noise". Did you not notice that I said "roar"? Do tires "roar" when they aren't skidding? No. ICE's "roar".
I'm totally OK with you having different preferences from me. I've met other people who think like you do, and we've had fine conversations about our personal preferences. But you're pretty much ignoring what I have to say, replacing it with your favorite preferences.
I'm totally OK with you having different preferences from me. I've met other people who think like you do, and we've had fine conversations about our personal preferences. But you're pretty much ignoring what I have to say, replacing it with your favorite preferences.
I have a Volt, I didn’t say my preference was a V12 or always a sporty car.
I think you're just so set in the idea that an EV must be quieter than ICE vehicle because people who bought one want a quiet car and you’re either willing to shift goalposts to do that or you’ve been talking past me. After all:
>I'm mainly concerned with people outside the car.
the conversation has been about interior noise this up til now.
And before when I mentioned flooring it, you responded, I responded saying both are fairly loud when floored, then you then turned around and said you weren’t talking about foooring it...
There’s not much of a conversation to be had if any time I bring up a point you try and write it off by changing the context of it, then turn around and accuse me of ignoring what you’re saying...
And for the record the noise in the Model S noise isn’t just tire noise, there’s the whine of the motors straining and the excessive-for-it’s-price-bracket wind noise
I think you're just so set in the idea that an EV must be quieter than ICE vehicle because people who bought one want a quiet car and you’re either willing to shift goalposts to do that or you’ve been talking past me. After all:
>I'm mainly concerned with people outside the car.
the conversation has been about interior noise this up til now.
And before when I mentioned flooring it, you responded, I responded saying both are fairly loud when floored, then you then turned around and said you weren’t talking about foooring it...
There’s not much of a conversation to be had if any time I bring up a point you try and write it off by changing the context of it, then turn around and accuse me of ignoring what you’re saying...
And for the record the noise in the Model S noise isn’t just tire noise, there’s the whine of the motors straining and the excessive-for-it’s-price-bracket wind noise
I was actually concerned about exterior noise the entire time, while trying to be inclusive of your comments. But yet mystified about the "roar" you keep mentioning -- ok, now a whine and wind whistle.
And I was flooring it, just not to 60. Which is what I said.
I live in downtown Palo Alto, and I hear Model S flooring it from the outside and inside on a regular basis. It's subtle compared to ICE cars.
Looks like we'll both end up mystified as to what the other is saying. So be it.
But to get back to my original point: If you talk to Tesla owners, they're into flooring it and not making a roar. Not a wind roar, not a small engine wine, but a roar of a gas engine causing breakthrough noise.
And I was flooring it, just not to 60. Which is what I said.
I live in downtown Palo Alto, and I hear Model S flooring it from the outside and inside on a regular basis. It's subtle compared to ICE cars.
Looks like we'll both end up mystified as to what the other is saying. So be it.
But to get back to my original point: If you talk to Tesla owners, they're into flooring it and not making a roar. Not a wind roar, not a small engine wine, but a roar of a gas engine causing breakthrough noise.
they being compared because they fall into a similar price range. 100K for a Model S, is higher than the vast majority of 5s and E klasse
Will you sell me a new base model Ferrari for ~$75k?
Pretty please
Pretty please
What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S?
The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. You reference that and claim an exception based on taxes but don't provide any actual information to clarify it.
Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.
The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.
The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper. You reference that and claim an exception based on taxes but don't provide any actual information to clarify it.
Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all. In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting. So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW. The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.
The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.
> What's the average selling price of the BMW 5 versus the Tesla S?
The average price doesn't matter. The actual price matters and this differs from country to country to such an extent that it will be a large factor in the decision making process. For 2017 NL and Norway for instance were big sellers for Tesla because of huge tax breaks on purchase and subsequent ownership taxes.
> The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper.
In NL they start at 56K Euros, the Tesla's at 90K+, but the tax situation is so convoluted that you can't even compare the two at that price point. Which is why you'll see plenty of Tesla's in lease fleets because the monthly figures on that very expensive car compare favorable with the 5 series.
> Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all.
Yes, this is usually the case when companies start out. BMW is just over a century old, if they would be growing at the rate of Tesla they'd be the only manufacturer by now. Just like any new company Tesla will - hopefully - continue to grow for quite a few years but it is my expectation that that growth will plateau at some point in the next couple of years.
> In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting.
See above for comparison between mature market players and start-ups. This is expected, there is a new equilibrium to be found and all existing market players will lose some market to a newcomer operating in their segment.
If that would not happen it would indicate that the market as a whole is growing which is not the main driver here.
> So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW.
No, you have to divide that over all the competing vehicle brands to figure out how much it affects them. And even though the 30K vehicles sold is impressive it's for now not at the level that the likes of BMW and MB are having end-times nightmares.
> The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.
Exactly. But until those numbers reach 100's of thousands of vehicles sold Tesla will be the underdog, and by that point the likes of BMW and MB (and possibly VW) will have a competing product. There is no way that Tesla will be able to absorb the whole car industry without the competition putting up a stiff fight, the way it is playing out right now is that Tesla is taking all the risks and laying the groundwork for electric car acceptance and infrastructure issues. It's a real world example of the innovators dilemma at work and it remains to be seen if the incumbents wake up in time to win that fight.
> The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.
No, they are coming at the expense of all automakers, maybe with a larger chunk coming out of the German automakers but that's not something that you can say without more proof than I have available right now, what I do know is that both the E class and the 5 series set records in the US in 2017, with both cars individually growing in sales as much as the total number of sales for the Model S.
The average price doesn't matter. The actual price matters and this differs from country to country to such an extent that it will be a large factor in the decision making process. For 2017 NL and Norway for instance were big sellers for Tesla because of huge tax breaks on purchase and subsequent ownership taxes.
> The BMW 5 appears to be significantly cheaper.
In NL they start at 56K Euros, the Tesla's at 90K+, but the tax situation is so convoluted that you can't even compare the two at that price point. Which is why you'll see plenty of Tesla's in lease fleets because the monthly figures on that very expensive car compare favorable with the 5 series.
> Besides that, Tesla is growing rapidly, BMW is not growing at all.
Yes, this is usually the case when companies start out. BMW is just over a century old, if they would be growing at the rate of Tesla they'd be the only manufacturer by now. Just like any new company Tesla will - hopefully - continue to grow for quite a few years but it is my expectation that that growth will plateau at some point in the next couple of years.
> In the US, which is a massive market for BMW, they're contracting.
See above for comparison between mature market players and start-ups. This is expected, there is a new equilibrium to be found and all existing market players will lose some market to a newcomer operating in their segment.
If that would not happen it would indicate that the market as a whole is growing which is not the main driver here.
> So when it's 30k S vehicles in Europe next year, it's just going to hurt that much more if you're BMW.
No, you have to divide that over all the competing vehicle brands to figure out how much it affects them. And even though the 30K vehicles sold is impressive it's for now not at the level that the likes of BMW and MB are having end-times nightmares.
> The car market in the US and Europe is not meaningfully expanding, every Tesla sold is coming directly out of the pocket of BMW, Mercedes, et al.
Exactly. But until those numbers reach 100's of thousands of vehicles sold Tesla will be the underdog, and by that point the likes of BMW and MB (and possibly VW) will have a competing product. There is no way that Tesla will be able to absorb the whole car industry without the competition putting up a stiff fight, the way it is playing out right now is that Tesla is taking all the risks and laying the groundwork for electric car acceptance and infrastructure issues. It's a real world example of the innovators dilemma at work and it remains to be seen if the incumbents wake up in time to win that fight.
> The ~120,000 Teslas that get sold in 2018 are coming directly at the expense of the German automakers.
No, they are coming at the expense of all automakers, maybe with a larger chunk coming out of the German automakers but that's not something that you can say without more proof than I have available right now, what I do know is that both the E class and the 5 series set records in the US in 2017, with both cars individually growing in sales as much as the total number of sales for the Model S.
The Model S (my Model S anyway) is expensive not because it's in the same conspicuous luxury segment as the high end of the Benz or Porsche line, but because it has expensive batteries, and because Tesla is using me, at my expense and with my consent, to gain market experience.
It's a product for early adopters. S class Benz products are not that.
My presence as a customer in this imagined luxury car price point segment is temporary. When it comes time to replace this Model S, I'm counting on several mass-market EV brands competing with each other.
If things keep going the the way they are now, Tesla will have a loyalty advantage in my next purchase choice. But that loyalty advantage probably won't be worth more than a few kilobucks.
The Model S is definitely not a plutocratmobile. I really like it. I'm a total fanboy. But there's road noise, and the front seat doors aren't plutocrat-grade comfortable, and the radio, and , and , and. The market analysts putting it in the plutocrat segment based only on price are making a mistake.
(Yeah, I know, first world problems. But I'm a proud early adopter. I also had a first-generation Honda Insight hybrid.)
It's a product for early adopters. S class Benz products are not that.
My presence as a customer in this imagined luxury car price point segment is temporary. When it comes time to replace this Model S, I'm counting on several mass-market EV brands competing with each other.
If things keep going the the way they are now, Tesla will have a loyalty advantage in my next purchase choice. But that loyalty advantage probably won't be worth more than a few kilobucks.
The Model S is definitely not a plutocratmobile. I really like it. I'm a total fanboy. But there's road noise, and the front seat doors aren't plutocrat-grade comfortable, and the radio, and , and , and. The market analysts putting it in the plutocrat segment based only on price are making a mistake.
(Yeah, I know, first world problems. But I'm a proud early adopter. I also had a first-generation Honda Insight hybrid.)
I think Tesla will eventually have to decide on a direction for the S, to drift higher or lower in its competitive target, in line with inevitable changes to tax credits.
It'll be interesting to see if they try to move down to compete with the BMW 5 category over time. Or whether they attempt to push quality higher, raise prices and fully compete with the next tier up.
The Model 3 is very clearly going to stay focused on competing with the BMW 3 (and equivalent from Mercedes et al.) over time.
Perhaps Musk will push a new sedan into the mix eventually to more properly align with how the BMW 3, 5, 7 series is set up.
It'll be interesting to see if they try to move down to compete with the BMW 5 category over time. Or whether they attempt to push quality higher, raise prices and fully compete with the next tier up.
The Model 3 is very clearly going to stay focused on competing with the BMW 3 (and equivalent from Mercedes et al.) over time.
Perhaps Musk will push a new sedan into the mix eventually to more properly align with how the BMW 3, 5, 7 series is set up.
I think you're right, and I bet Tesla will try to compete with the 5 series/E class and not the 7/S. Model S won't have to come down in price very much to fit in with 5/E. Maybe it will lack fit and finish, but it will have much better acceleration and cargo room (and the Tesla brand, and the domestic badge). The Model S will remain pretty competitive in the market.
The fact that Model S has "S" in it doesn't put it in the same class as Mercedes S, it's more in the class of Mercedes E class / BMW 5er, so this article doesn't make any sense.
Who do you think is the authority on this?
The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class.
Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.
The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class.
Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.
The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive.
If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.
If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.
Hmm, really? What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium. On the outside I think they look comparably luxurious to a Mercedes a class of BMW 7. The inside amenities is where they fall short in my opinion.
Maybe nobody will believe me, but the first time I saw a Tesla Model S in person was a few months ago, when it stopped in front of me at a traffic light.
I couldn't read the word "Tesla" and only saw an unfamiliar car with a logo I hadn't seen before.
My thoughts were "what strange Chinese crap trying to look like a big car is this?". Really.
I know, sounds stupid. I was able to read "Tesla" shortly thereafter and certainly felt stupid, not recognizing the car or the logo after reading so much about Tesla.
My opinion has slightly changed, in the meantime, I don't see them anymore and think of "cheap" and "wannabe", but I suspect that my initial feeling was the true one and I'm now subconsciously factoring in that I know it is a Tesla.
Still, they badly need an experienced "conventional" designer if they see themselves as one of the luxury Mercedes or BMW cars. But I suspect they don't see themselves like that and actively try to force a new design language into the market and create a new niche.
I couldn't read the word "Tesla" and only saw an unfamiliar car with a logo I hadn't seen before.
My thoughts were "what strange Chinese crap trying to look like a big car is this?". Really.
I know, sounds stupid. I was able to read "Tesla" shortly thereafter and certainly felt stupid, not recognizing the car or the logo after reading so much about Tesla.
My opinion has slightly changed, in the meantime, I don't see them anymore and think of "cheap" and "wannabe", but I suspect that my initial feeling was the true one and I'm now subconsciously factoring in that I know it is a Tesla.
Still, they badly need an experienced "conventional" designer if they see themselves as one of the luxury Mercedes or BMW cars. But I suspect they don't see themselves like that and actively try to force a new design language into the market and create a new niche.
This thread has got me thinking about what luxury looks like and I think brand prestige plays a lot in our perceptions. When we think Bentley, Audi, BMW or Mercedes we think high end luxury because of their history and lineage. Those brands also use very unique design language. BMW has it's characteristic 4 globe headlamps, Audi with it's minimalist aesthetic, etc. We've associated those designs with luxury.
When you first see the Hyundai Genesis line of cars you think it's some sort of high end fine European luxury vehicle because they copied the design language of luxury brands. However when you realize they're Hyundais you immediately think "oh garbage".
When Toyota first starting making the Lexus line they look like glossy versions of their Toyota counterparts and it took many years for them to develop a distinctive design aesthetic. Honda had similar issues with the Acura line in the US and I would argue they still do because the Acura line doesn't exist in other markets so those vehicles are branded as Honda. The Honda Odyssey has always looked more like an Acura to me.
Tesla to their credit didn't try to cash in the prestige of another brand by copying their design language. Tesla's design language is a blank slate in our mind so when we see it we don't know what to expect. We try to associate it with what we know, in this case you thought Chinese crap.
When you first see the Hyundai Genesis line of cars you think it's some sort of high end fine European luxury vehicle because they copied the design language of luxury brands. However when you realize they're Hyundais you immediately think "oh garbage".
When Toyota first starting making the Lexus line they look like glossy versions of their Toyota counterparts and it took many years for them to develop a distinctive design aesthetic. Honda had similar issues with the Acura line in the US and I would argue they still do because the Acura line doesn't exist in other markets so those vehicles are branded as Honda. The Honda Odyssey has always looked more like an Acura to me.
Tesla to their credit didn't try to cash in the prestige of another brand by copying their design language. Tesla's design language is a blank slate in our mind so when we see it we don't know what to expect. We try to associate it with what we know, in this case you thought Chinese crap.
Off topic, but just a side note. If you test drive the high end Genesis, you will no longer think "oh garbage". They are amazing cars for the price. On paper, they are better in almost every way than a BMW and their highest end Genesis (previously Equus) is actually nipping at the heels of a Bentley when it comes to features. As for driving, I definitely prefer the feel of a BMW 7, but I thought it was comparable to a BMW 3 or 5.
I dont' think true luxury is meant to "look". There's the iconic Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Porsche designs that most people recognize, but plenty of luxury cars look quite average. It's only when you're inside that you realize why they're luxury. I loved the VW Phaeton for this - yes, I know, not the highest end luxury, but it looks like a Passat on the outside and feels like an S class on the inside imo.
The Toyota Century is another example of this kind of luxury car. It's tailor-made for conservative Japanese businessmen who have a lot of money and enjoy riding in comfort but have no desire to show off.
Here's a good article on the Century and the kind of luxury it represents:
http://autoweek.com/article/tokyo-motor-show/no-modern-luxur...
Here's a good article on the Century and the kind of luxury it represents:
http://autoweek.com/article/tokyo-motor-show/no-modern-luxur...
I think you're underestimating how much hacking was required to get Model S into production, and how much that causes the design to generally feel cheap. Changing suppliers over and over, rushing new designs to solve problems in other systems, that kind of stuff leads to subtle incompatibilities in the overall architecture.
Model S is basically a V1 car. Audi has made a dozen generations of vehicles, each time getting another chance to refine the design.
The Model 3 is a big leap forward in fit and finish, albeit in a simpler design, without "premium" flourishes.
The next gen Model S will be Tesla's first real foray into designing a serious premium interior on purpose, with experience. It'll be interesting to see how it does.
Model S is basically a V1 car. Audi has made a dozen generations of vehicles, each time getting another chance to refine the design.
The Model 3 is a big leap forward in fit and finish, albeit in a simpler design, without "premium" flourishes.
The next gen Model S will be Tesla's first real foray into designing a serious premium interior on purpose, with experience. It'll be interesting to see how it does.
In Europe, the Model S indeed seems to blend in. I can understand it has interesting line in the US market, but in the EU, it does not stand out much. I confused it before with Ford, Jaguar, Peugeot or indeed some rarer brand, especially before the front refresh.
I personally find it quite attractive, it is a crowd pleasing design, but as a first model it could have used some sort of design extravagance. Something that scream "there is a Tesla 5 car down" even if you have just seen the rear corner of the boot or a light. Missed quite a few opportunities to tell people to look at the Tesla because, well, I didn't see it myself.
I personally find it quite attractive, it is a crowd pleasing design, but as a first model it could have used some sort of design extravagance. Something that scream "there is a Tesla 5 car down" even if you have just seen the rear corner of the boot or a light. Missed quite a few opportunities to tell people to look at the Tesla because, well, I didn't see it myself.
Yeah I think it uses pretty generic design language along the lines of Audi A4/5. And it’s been approximately the same for 6 years now. They’re going to have to do an extensive refresh across all models pretty soon or it’s going to look really tired. Inside and out.
Edit: I don’t mean it looks like an Audi (obviously I hope) I mean it’s conservative design language similar to Audi.
Edit: I don’t mean it looks like an Audi (obviously I hope) I mean it’s conservative design language similar to Audi.
No, you're right, it looks like a Hyundai or Kia to me. Not exactly Chinese crap, but nothing out of the ordinary, until I recognize the logo and "wow, a Model S" :D
> What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium.
It's not that it doesn't look premium, it's that it doesn't look luxury. What about a Tesla makes it look more expensive than an Honda Accord or Mazda 6?
When I look at a Tesla it very much reminds me of Mazda. It looks like it's built for performance.
It's not that it doesn't look premium, it's that it doesn't look luxury. What about a Tesla makes it look more expensive than an Honda Accord or Mazda 6?
When I look at a Tesla it very much reminds me of Mazda. It looks like it's built for performance.
That's because the main designer[1] is ex-Mazda.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen
It's sort of like comparing a house decorated from Design Within Reach modern furniture to a house decorated with 18th century ornate, solid-wood antiques.
The inside of one looks and feels like a Prius, with a Kindle for a center console.
It's kind of fun how some people see the center console as "the future", and others hate it. Fortunately, Tesla doesn't need a majority of consumers to love it.
I'm not completely opposed to digital center consoles, but I'd expect something that feels less flimsy on an $85,000 car.
Oh come on, the panel gaps and production issues on a Tesla would get a Mercedes manager killed!
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-video-revie...
Edit: Sorry that was a Model 3, here’s the S
https://insideevs.com/teardown-expert-test-drives-tesla-mode...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-teardown-video-revie...
Edit: Sorry that was a Model 3, here’s the S
https://insideevs.com/teardown-expert-test-drives-tesla-mode...
Your new edit is also about the Model 3... and even appears to be citing the same original source.
That's a Model 3, not a Model S
Good point, oops! I’ve edited my comment to make that point, and include the correct tearsown.
There was only one (publicly released) teardown. Munro seems to have released only two, one of the Model 3 and one of the car he considers to be the "most advanced vehicle on the planet", the i3. Considering the extreme opposite outcomes of his only two public teardowns, I'd be curious to see how measured his views on other cars would be or whether there's any hyperbole here.
Does anyone have any other Munro teardowns? Or perhaps any other independent source reconfirming his view?
Does anyone have any other Munro teardowns? Or perhaps any other independent source reconfirming his view?
That review is incredibly biased and concerns the Model 3 not the Model S.
Yeah, Teslarati.com is ever so biased against Tesla. :|
Does biased just mean “I don’t like it!” these days?
Does biased just mean “I don’t like it!” these days?
Cherry picking a single sample, getting facts wrong about the 12V port and handles, not even doing a comparison with the handles on other cars?
I mean, having Detroit car makers, notorious for bad build quality, and critique Tesla reeks of people like Steve Ballmer criticizing Apple, or the ULA folks running critics of SpaceX.
Biased means I this case, a tear down free of context. What’s the defect rate of Detroit built cars of similar class and age? How many recalls have they endured?
I mean, having Detroit car makers, notorious for bad build quality, and critique Tesla reeks of people like Steve Ballmer criticizing Apple, or the ULA folks running critics of SpaceX.
Biased means I this case, a tear down free of context. What’s the defect rate of Detroit built cars of similar class and age? How many recalls have they endured?
So a combination of wishing they’d destroyed a dozen cars, and “wasaah Detroit was bad too!”
I’m starting to get a sense of where the bias really lies, thanks.
I’m starting to get a sense of where the bias really lies, thanks.
You’d be wrong. I own a Honda Odyssey, not a Tesla. Do you own a German car?
You don’t need to be an owner to be biased, but fair question either way. No, I don’t own a German car, and never have. In fact no one in my family has, based on a promise to my grandfather, a Jew who fought in WWII. So really, my bias is decidedly anti-German, but I still respect the engineering. By the same token, VW engaged in wrongdoing did not shock me.
Really?? Not sure what gen 7er you're comparing to but the interior quality of the Model S reminded me more of a Toyota than anything German. Interior-wise, BMW has stepped up their game in recent years but Mercedes/Audi interiors are still considered better overall, especially in the higher end models.
I believe we're saying the same thing.
Tesla's own positioning has authority on the subject: their communication says "premium" cars. That's completely different than luxury.
Of course, that doesn't mean you are not right to feel prestige with a Tesla, and that's something important with luxury in general: what's luxury to someone can be absolute garbage to someone else. And quite often, premium products can be of higher quality than luxury products (luxury is often tied to quality, but most importantly brand history, hand-crafted parts, access to some social status, etc).
Of course, that doesn't mean you are not right to feel prestige with a Tesla, and that's something important with luxury in general: what's luxury to someone can be absolute garbage to someone else. And quite often, premium products can be of higher quality than luxury products (luxury is often tied to quality, but most importantly brand history, hand-crafted parts, access to some social status, etc).
This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is.
The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.
The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.
I would argue that it's more a factor of cost than size. Each segment contains vehicles of a variety of sizes, in the Oberklasse you have everything from 2 door supercar up to large SUVs.
The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria.
If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".
The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria.
If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".
You're right. This is Tesla's framing to get comparisons articles like these. The Tesla Model S should be compared to mid-range BMW's and Mercedes and the shipping numbers for those German models far eclipse the Tesla Model S.
Tesla are marketing and branding geniuses - they make Jobs look like an amateur
Isn’t it still a ‘lesser’ car outsold similarly priced ‘better’ cars though?
Seems like if the comparison were flipped, all the Tesla haters would be whining about it being compared to cheaper cars...
Seems like if the comparison were flipped, all the Tesla haters would be whining about it being compared to cheaper cars...
Base price (w/o tax credits) of the Model S is very similar to the base price of a 7 series Bimmer. The 5 series is about $30k cheaper to start. Doesn't seem fair to compare sales figures from an $80k car against those from a $50k car.
EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.
EDIT: Foolishly assumed US prices would roughly translate across markets. I had no idea there was such a large differential in other markets. Consider my comment retracted.
I agree this article makes absolutely no sense. Tesla's biggest market in Europe is Norway. In Norway, the base price of a Model S is $76k, while the cheapest BMW 7-series costs $140k! That's literally double the price!
I think it's a combination of tax breaks and subsidies that are at play here along with high taxes on ICE vehicles. Not just on the purchase price, in some European countries for cars with engine sizes well over 2.0l it totals up to €12000 in road tax to keep it on the road for 5 years.
No petrol tax, no VAT, no toll fee, free travel by public ferries, free parking on public spots, travel in bus lanes...
There are tons of reasons to get a Tesla in Norway at least (or a leaf/e-golf).
I tried a Tesla S but it was rattling in all the joins and windows and felt like a very poor build so I passed, but I hope some of the others pick up the slack soon like Audi or Mercedes.
By 2025 it will not be legal to sell new petrol or diesel cars anymore[1] here, but I actually want an electric car that goes 500 km. I just want a well built one.
[1] https://www.tu.no/artikler/fossilbilene-skal-fases-ut-i-2025...
There are tons of reasons to get a Tesla in Norway at least (or a leaf/e-golf).
I tried a Tesla S but it was rattling in all the joins and windows and felt like a very poor build so I passed, but I hope some of the others pick up the slack soon like Audi or Mercedes.
By 2025 it will not be legal to sell new petrol or diesel cars anymore[1] here, but I actually want an electric car that goes 500 km. I just want a well built one.
[1] https://www.tu.no/artikler/fossilbilene-skal-fases-ut-i-2025...
It will still be legal to sell plug-in hybrids, so the "ban" is just political posturing anyways. E.g. Volvo has stated they will shift all their models to plug-in hybrids well before 2025, so you can still buy your big mainly-petrol XC90 in 20 years time.
And by then, all of the perks you mention, like free parking, free ferries, driving in bus lanes, free road tax, they will all be gone even for electric cars.
Jeremy Clarkson predicted this whole shitshow perfectly way back when he said he was going to start a car company that put 9V batteries in Hummers and sold them as hybrids. It's pretty infuriating from an environmental perspective though.
On a constructive note, have you considered the new Mercedes or BMW plug-ins, like the C350e or the 530e? Realistically you'll get 30 km electric range on one charge, but for many that's enough (or close) for day-to-day driving. By 2025, that's probably doubled (or more). Then you just drive on petrol for your longer trips.
And by then, all of the perks you mention, like free parking, free ferries, driving in bus lanes, free road tax, they will all be gone even for electric cars.
Jeremy Clarkson predicted this whole shitshow perfectly way back when he said he was going to start a car company that put 9V batteries in Hummers and sold them as hybrids. It's pretty infuriating from an environmental perspective though.
On a constructive note, have you considered the new Mercedes or BMW plug-ins, like the C350e or the 530e? Realistically you'll get 30 km electric range on one charge, but for many that's enough (or close) for day-to-day driving. By 2025, that's probably doubled (or more). Then you just drive on petrol for your longer trips.
Could not agree more: Tesla enjoys favorable taxation in Norway compared to any petrol/diesel based car. One can be smashed by the sheer number of Tesla S in Oslo
Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k and the base price for a BMW 7 series about €88k, the 5er Series about €48k (prices according to google)
So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.
So the Tesla sits pretty right in the middle of the two. One could argue that it doesn’t seem fair to compare the sales figure of a €70k car against those of a € 90k car.
>Base price for the Tesla in Germany seems to be about €69k
I think it's quite hard to consider 69k€ to be the base price. They placed it at €69k to get subsidies for electric cars, which are only granted up to a sales price of €70k.
If you want to customize anything (different color, different interior), you have to get the "Comfort package" @ €13k. You also have to get the "comfort package" if you want basic stuff like navigation or radio.
€82k seems to be the fairer price point, especially considering this was the regular base model price until the government started providing the subsidies :)
I think it's quite hard to consider 69k€ to be the base price. They placed it at €69k to get subsidies for electric cars, which are only granted up to a sales price of €70k.
If you want to customize anything (different color, different interior), you have to get the "Comfort package" @ €13k. You also have to get the "comfort package" if you want basic stuff like navigation or radio.
€82k seems to be the fairer price point, especially considering this was the regular base model price until the government started providing the subsidies :)
It's not fair to compare a €48k car to a €69k car either then. That's a larger percentage price gap than between €69k and €90k.
I didn’t pretend it would be fair. Though in practice, with subsidies etc, the price of a Tesla is much closer to the BMW 5 than it is to the 7 series, especially in the markets where Tesla has it highest sales.
Just as a comparison: In Januar 2018, Tesla had 63 newly registered cars in Germany (all models) (1). The BMW 7 series alone had 364. (2) BMW all models 20 759 (1)
(1) https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah...
(2) https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/Mon...
Just as a comparison: In Januar 2018, Tesla had 63 newly registered cars in Germany (all models) (1). The BMW 7 series alone had 364. (2) BMW all models 20 759 (1)
(1) https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah...
(2) https://www.kba.de/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/Neuzulassungen/Mon...
In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €.
In Germany a Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse base price (the S-350) is 85.590 €.
Neither car is $50,000 or $80,000 in the markets the article is talking about, so I'm a bit confused by what your post is referring to.
In Germany a Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse base price (the S-350) is 85.590 €.
Neither car is $50,000 or $80,000 in the markets the article is talking about, so I'm a bit confused by what your post is referring to.
>In Germany a Tesla Model S base price is 69.020 €.
Hardly the true base price, considering you have to get the "Comfort Package" @ 13k if you want to customize anything or want to get basic stuff like navigation or radio.
Hardly the true base price, considering you have to get the "Comfort Package" @ 13k if you want to customize anything or want to get basic stuff like navigation or radio.
This article doesn't make sense indeed, they are comparing a premium brand (by Tesla's own wording on their website) with luxury brands.
(true) luxury brands have a love/hate relationship with "high sales", because every sale that is made lowers the prestige of the brand (to quote Porsche's CEO, "I worry when I see two of my cars in the same street").
Knowing that, comparing a company that benefits from selling more with companies that benefit from maintaining prestige is absurd.
(true) luxury brands have a love/hate relationship with "high sales", because every sale that is made lowers the prestige of the brand (to quote Porsche's CEO, "I worry when I see two of my cars in the same street").
Knowing that, comparing a company that benefits from selling more with companies that benefit from maintaining prestige is absurd.
I find it odd that there's so much discussion about this. It's pretty simple, and I think everyone understands how they compare if you just list the facts:
It's in the same price-class as S-class/7-series, but since operating costs are lower it still attracts E-class/7-series customers.
It's nearer to the high end classes when it comes to tech-factor and autonomy. It's also arguably in a class of its own when it comes to software and OTA updates.
It's in a class of its own when it comes to engine performance, since BMW and Mercedes don't have EVs in that segment. EVs have very different performance characteristics, but Tesla is arguably better in many ways.
It's in the E-class/5-Series segment in fit and finish and various luxury features.
I think the Model S is attracting S-class/7-series customers, without a doubt. I'm sure some of those would sacrifice fit and finish for the unique experience that the Model S delivers. But it doesn't attract everyone in that market. That goes without saying.
It's in the same price-class as S-class/7-series, but since operating costs are lower it still attracts E-class/7-series customers.
It's nearer to the high end classes when it comes to tech-factor and autonomy. It's also arguably in a class of its own when it comes to software and OTA updates.
It's in a class of its own when it comes to engine performance, since BMW and Mercedes don't have EVs in that segment. EVs have very different performance characteristics, but Tesla is arguably better in many ways.
It's in the E-class/5-Series segment in fit and finish and various luxury features.
I think the Model S is attracting S-class/7-series customers, without a doubt. I'm sure some of those would sacrifice fit and finish for the unique experience that the Model S delivers. But it doesn't attract everyone in that market. That goes without saying.
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It's in the class of those vehicles in cost and performance, but it is not in terms of build quality.
I know from a long career in the custom car field that this is an amazing milestone for a new US based automotive manufacturer.
The "DeLorean" was far behind this when they folded and that attempt got further than any before since the 1930s, and they weren't really a US manufacturer.
The "Tucker" didn't come anywhere near the Telsa, and that's probably right behind the DeLorean on the timeline.
And even more important is how they are doing it. They're not just building a new car, they're using an entirely different kind of powertrain and drivetrain. This too has been tried before, but again no startup has ever made it this far or advanced the tech used so dramatically.
I don't build custom cars anymore but I know what it takes from concept to production and I'm not just impressed with what they've done, I am astonished with how much they've done.
At this point, no matter what happens to Tesla, they have changed the industry forever.
The "DeLorean" was far behind this when they folded and that attempt got further than any before since the 1930s, and they weren't really a US manufacturer.
The "Tucker" didn't come anywhere near the Telsa, and that's probably right behind the DeLorean on the timeline.
And even more important is how they are doing it. They're not just building a new car, they're using an entirely different kind of powertrain and drivetrain. This too has been tried before, but again no startup has ever made it this far or advanced the tech used so dramatically.
I don't build custom cars anymore but I know what it takes from concept to production and I'm not just impressed with what they've done, I am astonished with how much they've done.
At this point, no matter what happens to Tesla, they have changed the industry forever.
I honestly never thought we would see a from the ground up car manufacturer coalesce into existence without divine intervention. I remember hearing that the barrier of entry to the automobile market is measured in billions per vehicle platform. For a long time I assumed that the only way we'd see another car maker is if a Chinese or Indian manufacturer entered the US Automobile market.
Raw data. It doesn't match the number listed in the article exactly but the same trend.
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-... 2017: 16.026, 2016: 11.564: 2015: 15.169
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Ben... 2017: 14.757, 2016: 14.967, 2015: 16.583
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-ben... 2017: 127.638, 2016: 99.494, 2015: 84.771
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-... 2017: 16.026, 2016: 11.564: 2015: 15.169
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/Mercedes-Ben... 2017: 14.757, 2016: 14.967, 2015: 16.583
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/mercedes-ben... 2017: 127.638, 2016: 99.494, 2015: 84.771
This is fake news. Comparing Tesla sales to the X6 doesn't make any sense since that's a very niche product that BMW sells. I understand it's the most similar BMW from a design standpoint, but it's probably their lowest volume model. The most comparable would be the 5 series.
IMHO Tesla is selling well only because they are first to market, and because of the various EV incentive programs.
One will be able to assess Tesla's real market performance when the major manufacturers start selling EVs with comparable mileage capabilities.
I would much rather wait to buy an Audi EV SUV or a Mercedes EV SUV in 2019 or 2020, than buy a Tesla Model X right now. By waiting just a year or two, one deals with local dealerships, you have the usual availability of spares and parts for maintenance and body work, plus the already well-known quality and workmanship of an Audi, Mercedes, etc.
Tesla is not a bad choice, but when one is able to choose between a Tesla and Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Ford/Toyota/etc with comparable stats, I think most people will stick with the more familiar brand that they can buy from their local dealership.
One will be able to assess Tesla's real market performance when the major manufacturers start selling EVs with comparable mileage capabilities.
I would much rather wait to buy an Audi EV SUV or a Mercedes EV SUV in 2019 or 2020, than buy a Tesla Model X right now. By waiting just a year or two, one deals with local dealerships, you have the usual availability of spares and parts for maintenance and body work, plus the already well-known quality and workmanship of an Audi, Mercedes, etc.
Tesla is not a bad choice, but when one is able to choose between a Tesla and Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Ford/Toyota/etc with comparable stats, I think most people will stick with the more familiar brand that they can buy from their local dealership.
Comparing today’s tesla against a 2020 competitor is unfair. You have to compare 2020’s tesla. People have been saying tesla will be outcompeted for years and still no real competition has materialized. If the traditional car companies wanted to be in tesla’s market, they already would be.
preach! They are announcing concepts, that dont even eclipse, the current offerings. Next year you will probably see a performance Model 3 dual motor, faster than any BMW M3, M4 or Mercedede C AMG or basicly anything, in that class.
At this point, I disagree that it's because of the incentives. In fact, at the Model S price point, it probably had nothing to do with incentives, which are (if you're 'lucky', 10% at $100k pricepoint).
First to market, yes. And first to make it 'cool'. I have a hard time thinking BMW bolting batteries into a car will take away from the novelty factor of the Model S. It's not just about propulsion, it's everything -- the styling, the electronics, the early adopter thing, street cred, etc.
It's "do you want to buy one of half a dozen old school cars, or this new COOL thing?"
How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been surprised that Honda makes a hybrid?
First to market, yes. And first to make it 'cool'. I have a hard time thinking BMW bolting batteries into a car will take away from the novelty factor of the Model S. It's not just about propulsion, it's everything -- the styling, the electronics, the early adopter thing, street cred, etc.
It's "do you want to buy one of half a dozen old school cars, or this new COOL thing?"
How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been surprised that Honda makes a hybrid?
> How many Prius owners have seen a Honda hybrid of some sort and been surprised that Honda makes a hybrid?
Honda had the first mass-produced US-market hybrid, and was the first to make it cool.
OTOH, the first-gen Prius was more broadly useful than the super-small first-gen Insight that preceded it to the US market.
Not sure how this is supposed to map to Tesla, are you trying to say Tesla is like Toyota or Honda in this comparison?
Honda had the first mass-produced US-market hybrid, and was the first to make it cool.
OTOH, the first-gen Prius was more broadly useful than the super-small first-gen Insight that preceded it to the US market.
Not sure how this is supposed to map to Tesla, are you trying to say Tesla is like Toyota or Honda in this comparison?
The Tesla is like the Toyota. It's the car everyone knows is an electric. Hybrids from non-Toyota makers had to play a lot of catchup (and, frankly, even non-Prius Toyota Hybrids) to have the same appeal that the Prius did.
In the same way, I don't see electric cars from BMW or Audi or Mercedes competing with Tesla on day 1. It's just JUST the powertrain that's drawing people to the Tesla. Some of the pro-Tesla draws are down to vanity or image, and others are more tangible.
In the same way, I don't see electric cars from BMW or Audi or Mercedes competing with Tesla on day 1. It's just JUST the powertrain that's drawing people to the Tesla. Some of the pro-Tesla draws are down to vanity or image, and others are more tangible.
In Norway it is not 10% but a 100%
I can certainly see a lot of different possibilities as Audi/Mercedes/Porsche get their EV offerings out, but NONE of them, even the concepts (2019 2020 etc), offer similar performance, or even range to the more than year old Tesla Model S P100D. And when they come out.. they will most likely be competing against the Roadster 2.0 and very likely also an updated Model S. I feel like this is 2007-2009 all over again.. Yeah the iPhone is nice and all, but look at HTC, Blackberry and Nokia.. they are getting their iPhone killers ready...
Here is an old [2016] article about why the Tesla S might not be a "Full-Size Luxury Sedan", which lists arguments I personally find convincing:
https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but...
TL;DR, it is roughly same size and offers same leg room as BMW series 5 and Mercedes Class E, besides, given that virtually no BMW or Mercedes is sold in a base equipment version and that the government subsidizing for fully electric cars must be taken into account they are also in an approximately similar price range.
https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but...
TL;DR, it is roughly same size and offers same leg room as BMW series 5 and Mercedes Class E, besides, given that virtually no BMW or Mercedes is sold in a base equipment version and that the government subsidizing for fully electric cars must be taken into account they are also in an approximately similar price range.
The big brands are in a bit of a dip, converting from a huge fraction being big diesels, back into petrol and more hybrid/electrics. It will be a few years before the likes of VW/Audo/Merc/BMW/Volvo etc have all hybrid and/or electric. The dieselgate combined with the rise of Tesla caught everyone off guard. Also, there are some big subsidies that obviously go mostly to Tesla, and not to the luxry car makers (much). When subsidies disappear (or apply to germans too because they make EV's) then the sales figures can be better compared.
Good news. But I'm not happy about this:
https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla
Remember, we don't even have 1/1000 of the cars on the road as self-driving vehicles, and yet these carmakers' systems are already getting hacked. What we can expect when/if Tesla and other carmakers have 50 million self-driving vehicles each on the road?
https://blog.redlock.io/cryptojacking-tesla
Remember, we don't even have 1/1000 of the cars on the road as self-driving vehicles, and yet these carmakers' systems are already getting hacked. What we can expect when/if Tesla and other carmakers have 50 million self-driving vehicles each on the road?
There was a server problem, and it was fixed. Tesla was upfront about the problem and pushed out updates to resolve it. Compare this to all other auto dealers - hiding problems, not fixing them, no ability to improve them online. Tesla has a generally well designed system, with separate computer systems running the drive train and the 'entertainment' console, you can reboot the big panel without affecting driving the car.
"The RedLock CSI team immediately reported the incident to Tesla and the issue was quickly rectified."
That's the most you can ask for beyond basic competence. There will always be security bugs in software to some extent, the fact that Tesla responded quickly gives me more confidence in them.
But I agree with your overall point, at some point some hacker is going to kill people with a hacked car (probably not a Tesla), and it's going to take lots of dead bodies and legislation for congress to pass appropriate standards for security. Hopefully we'll reach a point where computer security in cars is regulated the same as seat belts and air bags.
That's the most you can ask for beyond basic competence. There will always be security bugs in software to some extent, the fact that Tesla responded quickly gives me more confidence in them.
But I agree with your overall point, at some point some hacker is going to kill people with a hacked car (probably not a Tesla), and it's going to take lots of dead bodies and legislation for congress to pass appropriate standards for security. Hopefully we'll reach a point where computer security in cars is regulated the same as seat belts and air bags.
No, that's not the "most" they can do. Not even close.
This is about the minimum they should do with self-driving cars, yet it's still about an order of magnitude more than their "most they can do" right now:
http://ideas.4brad.com/disconnected-car-right-security-plan-...
Tesla cars' "features" such as remote control, accessing any car from its servers, over-the-air updates, and more features like that will have a direct impact in helping attackers take over Teslas' cars.
How they design the security architecture of their self-driving cars now will determine whether or not Tesla's cars will be the "Windows XP" of the 2020s. I think it's way better to criticize/give them feedback on this now, while the architecture is still being developed, than after the potential Windows XP is already "finished" and live on 50 million cars. And yes, that goes for every other carmaker, too, not just Tesla.
Plus, I don't know about you, but a TV ad saying "Tesla - the only self-driving car that hackers can't drive off the highway" sounds like it would be quite effective to me.
This is about the minimum they should do with self-driving cars, yet it's still about an order of magnitude more than their "most they can do" right now:
http://ideas.4brad.com/disconnected-car-right-security-plan-...
Tesla cars' "features" such as remote control, accessing any car from its servers, over-the-air updates, and more features like that will have a direct impact in helping attackers take over Teslas' cars.
How they design the security architecture of their self-driving cars now will determine whether or not Tesla's cars will be the "Windows XP" of the 2020s. I think it's way better to criticize/give them feedback on this now, while the architecture is still being developed, than after the potential Windows XP is already "finished" and live on 50 million cars. And yes, that goes for every other carmaker, too, not just Tesla.
Plus, I don't know about you, but a TV ad saying "Tesla - the only self-driving car that hackers can't drive off the highway" sounds like it would be quite effective to me.
Once the state actors have hacked the AI drivers/cameras they will be able to track and kill just about anyone anywhere with them.
News flash: state actors can already track and kill anyone they want
State actors can't yet kill anyone in any other country from the comfort of their chairs.
This is the same argument people make when they say "drone strikes are the same as air strikes". Not they are not. We're seeing orders of magnitude more drone strikes than air strikes, and that's because they are different (such as much cheaper and easier to do than ever before).
This is the same argument people make when they say "drone strikes are the same as air strikes". Not they are not. We're seeing orders of magnitude more drone strikes than air strikes, and that's because they are different (such as much cheaper and easier to do than ever before).
> State actors can't yet kill anyone in any other country from the comfort of their chairs.
This is what the CIA/Mossad/FSB/... does
Sure, cars will make it cheaper and more convenient, and will open up the "market" to smaller states, but it's not a new capability.
This is what the CIA/Mossad/FSB/... does
Sure, cars will make it cheaper and more convenient, and will open up the "market" to smaller states, but it's not a new capability.
Sometimes they do, but sometimes they get caught like in this instance. Doing it by car would probably be preferable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair
They try it, but the results are usually pathetic. Think of all those CIA's attempts to kill Fidel Castro...
Not remotely, with ease, and with a built in story as to how the person died. Perhaps in more oppressive environments it wouldn’t matter, but being able to cause car accidents at will would substantially expand the ability of the U.S. government to carry out assassinations without raising suspicion. Even if someone were to notice, and point out a string of 20 people killed in strange and unlikely car accidents that shouldn’t have happened, nobody would believe them anyways. It would be treated like any other conspiracy theory.
At the same time, I’m pretty sure they could come up with much better ways of killing people than this. Technology makes really dystopian shit a lot easier.
At the same time, I’m pretty sure they could come up with much better ways of killing people than this. Technology makes really dystopian shit a lot easier.
Sure, but can they reliably make it look like an accident, over and over and over?
It'll actually probably be hard to do it unnoticed. My guess is that self driving accidents will be heavily scrutinized to try to figure out why it happened. Also the government already can kill pretty much anyone at any time with various means
But once it’s at scale, it will either be common enough or it could be made to be common enough that there’s a news story about it every other week. At that point, it’s not too difficult to kill specific people in accidents without raising suspicion. This is assuming some amount of cooperation amongst these corporations and state actors, though. And tbh you could probably make much better covert domestic assassination drones. No explosions, no noise, just a poison or something. Maybe even just carbon monoxide.
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So this was a server side thing.
Most of the discussion I've seen around trying to hack Tesla vehicles is that they are impressively secure, although persevering white-hats have found ways in here and there, which Tesla have quickly patched.
Its true that we're in a brave new world of hackable cars though. Tesla imho have a better software pedigree than the other automakers so that will hopefully keep them ahead.
Most of the discussion I've seen around trying to hack Tesla vehicles is that they are impressively secure, although persevering white-hats have found ways in here and there, which Tesla have quickly patched.
Its true that we're in a brave new world of hackable cars though. Tesla imho have a better software pedigree than the other automakers so that will hopefully keep them ahead.
I suppose premium in Europe is luxury in the USA. Isn’t a 7 series BMW about $140k USD?
Yeah, nobody buys a 7 series to drive themselves. The 5 series is BMW's driver flagship, IMO.
Never seen a 7-series that wasn't driven by the owner.
My local council had one chauffeur-driven for the Mayor and associates until the need for a more 'austere' public image saw it being replaced by a Skoda Octavia ( Jetta / Golf platform ).
I think the Mayor of Belfast still rides in the back of a 7.
I think the Mayor of Belfast still rides in the back of a 7.
Not the base one, that's true. The "Lang" versions are made for sitting on the back seat.
The "I don't drive myself"-version of e.g. the Audi A8 is the A8L. Same for the BMW 7. (At least they used to have e.g. the 740L).
But both the S-class and the 7-series are very VERY rare luxury cars. I see thousands of 5-series and E-classes for every 7-series or S-class. The difference in price must be huge in europe compared to the US, because there I saw tons of 7-series and S-class was almost as common as E-class.
But both the S-class and the 7-series are very VERY rare luxury cars. I see thousands of 5-series and E-classes for every 7-series or S-class. The difference in price must be huge in europe compared to the US, because there I saw tons of 7-series and S-class was almost as common as E-class.
Yes, the price difference is huge. E class is common as a taxi here, base price for a consumer model is 55K Euros, S class nearly double that.
What’s the reason (apart from tradition making people think it’s normal) the proce difference between these models is so big in the EU and not in the US?
Taxes. I drive a 15 year old car, I would not want to waste money on a new one. My car cost about 14% of what it was new with 55K km on the clock and is in a much cheaper tax bracket than a new one. It's a ridiculous system.
This may be true in China, but not most other countries.
In the US a 7 starts at $83,100 - https://www.google.com/search?q=bmw+7+series+msrp&ie=utf-8&o....
For comparison, in NL they start at 105,000 Euros ($130K), in Germany at 87,000 Euros ($107K).
Tesla to the rest of the auto manufacturers: I have not yet begun to fight! (in my best John Paul Jones voice)
The fact that nobody has mentioned the word torque shows the lack of Tesla owners on these comments. Driving a Tesla can make you forgive all the other shortcomings.
I hear that in 5 years everyone will be using tablets and there will be no more laptops or desktops either...
oh wait, it's not 2013 anymore.. never mind.
oh wait, it's not 2013 anymore.. never mind.
Original source: http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180220/ANE/180219831/te...
From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter."
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
From the Hacker News Guidelines [1]: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter."
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Thanks, we've updated the link from https://electrek.co/2018/02/20/tesla-dominates-luxury-segmen....
Sales for 2017:
Tesla Model S: < 20K BMW 5 series: 109K MB E-class: 125K
Note that the EU tax situation for vehicles is very complicated and can cause the price to change so much that a Tesla model S can be much cheaper, about equal or more expensive to a BMW 5 series or E class depending on the country you are looking at.