'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF(sfgate.com)
sfgate.com
'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF
https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/Coerced-into-tipping-How-apps-are-changing-the-13164536.php
214 comments
As a point of information: there is no reduced minimum wage for tipped workers in California.
Wait staff etc must still receive full minimum wage in addition to any tips they receive.
Wait staff etc must still receive full minimum wage in addition to any tips they receive.
I don't think that changes the expectations on the waitstaff side, or the sense of obligation on the tippers' side.
The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms, not real economics.
Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately require) a certain level of income, regardless of origin.
It's a little like subsidized gas. The US has been underpaying for gas for so long that I've got no idea what political martyr would try to put that cat in the bag. When a market distortion lasts so long it becomes part of the social fabric, it's real hard to just kill off.
I'd love to hear about times countries have been able to pull this off at scale.
The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms, not real economics.
Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately require) a certain level of income, regardless of origin.
It's a little like subsidized gas. The US has been underpaying for gas for so long that I've got no idea what political martyr would try to put that cat in the bag. When a market distortion lasts so long it becomes part of the social fabric, it's real hard to just kill off.
I'd love to hear about times countries have been able to pull this off at scale.
Norway and Singapore tax the crap out of cars and are still doing fine.
While I fully support taxing the crap out of cars, Singapore and the USA are hardly comparable. It's the third most densely populated country on earth, and you can walk the circumference of the entire island in about a day. Not even factoring in the comprehensive public transit..
This can't be stressed enough. Large swaths of the US population would immediately become immobile. I think OP has never lived and worked in a rural area, say 30 miles outside of the nearest town, where survival depends on your ability to transport yourself.
Great point!
Except that the population density of the US is almost double that of Norway. (We definitely have our share of rural areas...)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
Except that the population density of the US is almost double that of Norway. (We definitely have our share of rural areas...)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
The density people live at is the interesting figure.
Of course it's quite high in the US, what with the population being concentrated on the coasts.
Of course it's quite high in the US, what with the population being concentrated on the coasts.
In a way, the invention of the automobile made our lives worse. It meant grocery stores and services could be placed further and further away, stretching out areas rather than condensing them.
[deleted]
Norway and Singapore didn't just switch from large subsidies to large tax. The problem isn't that a country can't function without subsidizing gas. The problem is that people who are used to the status quo will be pissed off when you interfere with their god-given right to cheap gas.
I'm not sure that has much to do with it. People don't become servers to make minimum wage.
Imagine if you receive an offer with $160k salary per year, $100k expected public RSUs per year, and $100k expected bonus per year. You'll be upset if you only make $160k salary even though that's above minimum wage.
Imagine if you receive an offer with $160k salary per year, $100k expected public RSUs per year, and $100k expected bonus per year. You'll be upset if you only make $160k salary even though that's above minimum wage.
"People don't become servers to make minimum wage"
People don't take jobs at fast food places to make minimum wage either. I'm not sure anyone takes a minimum wage job to make minimum wage. People take the jobs to make money and try to survive. Being a server is no different.
Tips are unreliable and depend greatly on place and hours you are scheduled. Sure, theoretically you get minimum wage, but not all employers make sure you do.
People don't take jobs at fast food places to make minimum wage either. I'm not sure anyone takes a minimum wage job to make minimum wage. People take the jobs to make money and try to survive. Being a server is no different.
Tips are unreliable and depend greatly on place and hours you are scheduled. Sure, theoretically you get minimum wage, but not all employers make sure you do.
I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage.
20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service.
15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18.
I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal.
And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft.
We have to fight this tip creep or we will live in a world where every service employee is paid with 100% tips by those that feel guilty enough to pay it while all the cheapskates freeload.
20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service.
15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18.
I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal.
And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft.
We have to fight this tip creep or we will live in a world where every service employee is paid with 100% tips by those that feel guilty enough to pay it while all the cheapskates freeload.
When I was a kid, 10% was fairly normal.
Last time I went to a restaurant in the US, I got scolded because I refused to tip when the waitress brought my food out cold and never once gave me a refill. I'm apparently "supposed" to tip 25% these days.
When people do their job, I'm okay with tipping. But I'm not OK with tipping based on the price of the meal. A person who works at a $70/plate restaurant and keeps filling my glass of water up with ice before I can finish it, making it unbearably cold, really isn't doing anything better than an overworked waiter in a $7/plate dirty hole in the wall shack. The skills don't differ (and I'm honestly often impressed with how skill-less waiters are at high-end American restaurants--they're worse than typical servers in any other country) and they're not the ones making the meals.
Just bring me a drink that's at least 90% drink and not 90% ice, bring my food out before it's cold, and get me a refill within a few minutes of running out and I have no trouble dropping $10 or $20--the price of the meal doesn't factor into that. Fail to do that, and you're getting nothing--I don't care how expensive the meal is that the chef prepared, but you had zero involvement so you're not entitled to that cash.
But I'm glad I'm not living in a place with a toxic restaurant culture, so it's not my problem anymore. :)
Last time I went to a restaurant in the US, I got scolded because I refused to tip when the waitress brought my food out cold and never once gave me a refill. I'm apparently "supposed" to tip 25% these days.
When people do their job, I'm okay with tipping. But I'm not OK with tipping based on the price of the meal. A person who works at a $70/plate restaurant and keeps filling my glass of water up with ice before I can finish it, making it unbearably cold, really isn't doing anything better than an overworked waiter in a $7/plate dirty hole in the wall shack. The skills don't differ (and I'm honestly often impressed with how skill-less waiters are at high-end American restaurants--they're worse than typical servers in any other country) and they're not the ones making the meals.
Just bring me a drink that's at least 90% drink and not 90% ice, bring my food out before it's cold, and get me a refill within a few minutes of running out and I have no trouble dropping $10 or $20--the price of the meal doesn't factor into that. Fail to do that, and you're getting nothing--I don't care how expensive the meal is that the chef prepared, but you had zero involvement so you're not entitled to that cash.
But I'm glad I'm not living in a place with a toxic restaurant culture, so it's not my problem anymore. :)
You’re making it seem like the drink ice and refill part are obvious things. I like a lot of ice in my drinks.
The waitstaff tip out the kitchen and bar in a lot of restaurants.
"tip creep" is a really great term for what's going on.
Services that don't have tips encoded in wage law (like restaurants [mostly]) are either passing along large scale pricing errors, or begging for arbitrary, subjective price increases beyond what's needed to run the business. Neither of those should be met with a smile.
Services that don't have tips encoded in wage law (like restaurants [mostly]) are either passing along large scale pricing errors, or begging for arbitrary, subjective price increases beyond what's needed to run the business. Neither of those should be met with a smile.
That's ultimately the problem with tips. It ends up being about coercion, and extracting the maximum amount from customers.
Besides the issue of people trying to convince you that the "standard" tip amount is an ever higher amount, new industries try to add tipping. Notice tip jars appearing everywhere.
Besides the issue of people trying to convince you that the "standard" tip amount is an ever higher amount, new industries try to add tipping. Notice tip jars appearing everywhere.
My girlfriend, whose worked in the service industry for the last 5 years, would vehemently disagree with you. If she doesn't get at least 20%, it's more or less an offensive amount _because_ they get paid so little because of this law. That's baseline.
Before I met her, I assumed 10% was a perfectly acceptable tip but I had never really had any friends who worked in the service industry or worked there myself, so I had no idea how little they actually make. For a typical slow shift, a bartender/server can make $20 or less...and this is in NYC.
Before I met her, I assumed 10% was a perfectly acceptable tip but I had never really had any friends who worked in the service industry or worked there myself, so I had no idea how little they actually make. For a typical slow shift, a bartender/server can make $20 or less...and this is in NYC.
OK...but that's not an obvious thing to those of us on the outside. Particularly for those of us who grew up in a world where 15% was considered a good tip, and then start vaguely hearing from random sources that maybe it's supposed to be 18% now? When did that happen, and why?
There is no way for people not in that position to know what will be an "offensive" amount. I get that it's not a simple thing to "just find a job that pays a decent amount," but...unless we can get the law changed to require reasonable minimum wages for everyone, that's really the only way this sort of abuse will be stopped.
And that's what it is: abuse. If she's getting paid so little that she requires every single table she serves to pay an extra 1/5 of their meal price directly to her or she's in danger of not being able to make ends meet, that's on her employer. Continuing to increase the amount we all tip just allows abusive employers like hers to continue to freeload off of all of us, and not even have to shoulder the burden of being the one taking the economic or emotional/social risk of asking for more money, because they force the servers into that position instead.
There is no way for people not in that position to know what will be an "offensive" amount. I get that it's not a simple thing to "just find a job that pays a decent amount," but...unless we can get the law changed to require reasonable minimum wages for everyone, that's really the only way this sort of abuse will be stopped.
And that's what it is: abuse. If she's getting paid so little that she requires every single table she serves to pay an extra 1/5 of their meal price directly to her or she's in danger of not being able to make ends meet, that's on her employer. Continuing to increase the amount we all tip just allows abusive employers like hers to continue to freeload off of all of us, and not even have to shoulder the burden of being the one taking the economic or emotional/social risk of asking for more money, because they force the servers into that position instead.
Putting it on the employer is lazy.
The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so.
Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.
The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so.
Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.
As someone who grew up outside the US, I sill find this attitude really bizarre. In Australia, if you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage, then you are not a businessperson, you are a thief. You are taking money that your employees earned and putting it in your own pocket. If you can't afford to be profitable otherwise, then you shouldn't be in business. Why is it the general public's responsibility to pay your employees salaries? Saying it's not possible to stay competitive is a complete cop out. Zazie in SF has been around for more than 25 years if you need an example of a restaurant with sustainable business model that treats its employees fairly and doesn't expect their customers to tip.
As a kiwi that could buy a 50c bag of lollies with my EFTPOS card at any corner store nationwide, 20 years ago I find it pretty amusing an Australian is criticising America for its backwards purchasing policies - especially when it comes to bundling and offsetting of business costs to make it easier on the customer.
How's that $10, $15, $30 minimum, 50c, $1 but that's now illigal (still rampant), .5% EFTPOS, 1.5% credit card surcharge, no amex, cash only purchase going for ya?
How's that $10, $15, $30 minimum, 50c, $1 but that's now illigal (still rampant), .5% EFTPOS, 1.5% credit card surcharge, no amex, cash only purchase going for ya?
You're suggesting one out of tens of thousands of restaurants in the US. I don't need one example, I need an overwhelming body of evidence that paying your employees a livable wage means you can stay competitive. I'm talking specifically about the service food industry of which this thread is addressing specifically. I don't know what the laws in AUS are but in the US, you can pay your employees, BY LAW[1], around $2/hr because tips are considered supplementary to that. I'm not stating anything new here, this is just how it is. I don't like it any more then you do but that is the world we live in and laws that make it possible to pay people below what we consider a livable wage need to be repelled.
[1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
[1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
There's no minimum wage in Sweden and waitstaff there earn good money, the hospitality average would be about $4000 USD monthly.
By law you can pay your staff 10 cents an hour but no one does because that's absurd exploitation of another human being that would be considered socially unacceptable and no one would eat in your restaurant.
The fact that this is so normalised in the states is concerning. I agree with the other comment that if you can't run a business and pay staff a living wage you aren't good at business.
People working full time yet living below the poverty line is the sign of a dysfunctional society. Needing laws to force you into treating others with decency obviously isn't a shared experience across the developed world.
https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/
By law you can pay your staff 10 cents an hour but no one does because that's absurd exploitation of another human being that would be considered socially unacceptable and no one would eat in your restaurant.
The fact that this is so normalised in the states is concerning. I agree with the other comment that if you can't run a business and pay staff a living wage you aren't good at business.
People working full time yet living below the poverty line is the sign of a dysfunctional society. Needing laws to force you into treating others with decency obviously isn't a shared experience across the developed world.
https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/
Not sure I would frame these restaurant owners as indecent because a lot of them are locally owned and just trying to survive. You can make an argument that they shouldn't be in business at all but for a lot of people this is their livelihood and there are those who take these jobs either out of convenience or need.
I would put most of the onus on the societal normalization of this practice and the fact that the US, being so capitalistic, rewards this behavior.
Again, this is my view from living in NYC for the past 5 years and viewing the industry as such. It may be completely different in other cities or countries, but this is the situation here.
I would put most of the onus on the societal normalization of this practice and the fact that the US, being so capitalistic, rewards this behavior.
Again, this is my view from living in NYC for the past 5 years and viewing the industry as such. It may be completely different in other cities or countries, but this is the situation here.
I don't buy this old argument at all anymore.
If customers are smart enough to figure out a 20% tip they're smart enough to figure out that your "tips included" pricing is still competitive compared to the place across the street.
Sure there is some marketing benefit to a lower number but regulars will make or break a solid business and they talk, a lot.
So no, I dont think staying competitive is an argument for anything other than lacking the balls to put a sign up and fix your pricing.
On top of that the net benefits from paying your staff a livable dependable wage, and advertising the fact you don't have to subsidize free loaders will likely outweigh any negative effects for all but the scummiest joints relying on one time customers.
If customers are smart enough to figure out a 20% tip they're smart enough to figure out that your "tips included" pricing is still competitive compared to the place across the street.
Sure there is some marketing benefit to a lower number but regulars will make or break a solid business and they talk, a lot.
So no, I dont think staying competitive is an argument for anything other than lacking the balls to put a sign up and fix your pricing.
On top of that the net benefits from paying your staff a livable dependable wage, and advertising the fact you don't have to subsidize free loaders will likely outweigh any negative effects for all but the scummiest joints relying on one time customers.
SF restaurants now add a healthcare surcharge which ranges from 3-10% (mandatory), then expect a 20% tip on top of that.
Pretty ridiculous, I've started subtracting the healthcare surcharge out of what I would normally tip since it seem to vary widely.
Pretty ridiculous, I've started subtracting the healthcare surcharge out of what I would normally tip since it seem to vary widely.
Do they clearly advertise the healthcare surcharge with signage or on the menu? Because I would speak to the manager and absolutely refuse to pay a secret add on to the bill.
As for subtracting it from the tip, I don't think that's the right thing to do. You are essentially taking from the employee and giving it to the business owner. But maybe if enough people did that, the employees would revolt.
As for subtracting it from the tip, I don't think that's the right thing to do. You are essentially taking from the employee and giving it to the business owner. But maybe if enough people did that, the employees would revolt.
It is usually mentioned in very small print on the back or bottom of the menu.
Part of the healthcare mandate is that the restaurant must provide health insurance coverage for the employee (which was not previously required), so they are benefiting in a way. It probably isn't completely fair to subtract it out, but the majority of restaurants now have this.
Part of the healthcare mandate is that the restaurant must provide health insurance coverage for the employee (which was not previously required), so they are benefiting in a way. It probably isn't completely fair to subtract it out, but the majority of restaurants now have this.
I noticed this yesterday at dinner. The lowest suggested tip on the receipt was 20%! So psychologically I kind of felt bad for "only" giving 15%.
Honestly, when I see this I go out of my way to not tip at all. I appreciate the tip "shortcut" buttons, but when you're missing the most common option (15%) that's just in bad faith.
What’s your Uber/Lyft rating these days? I imagine it’s not good if you don’t tip.
How would one know such a thing?
The absence of tipping was one of the big advantages uber and lyft offered over conventional cabs when they first came along, and I've stuck with it; I'm not going to tip.
If that eventually gets me blackballed so I have to go back to old-fashioned cabs, well... perhaps I'm not missing out on much.
The absence of tipping was one of the big advantages uber and lyft offered over conventional cabs when they first came along, and I've stuck with it; I'm not going to tip.
If that eventually gets me blackballed so I have to go back to old-fashioned cabs, well... perhaps I'm not missing out on much.
From what I've heard (And someone please correct me if I'm wrong), drivers can't see what an individual rider tipped. They just get a total at the end of some period.
This is done specifically to prevent rating riders low just for not tipping.
This is done specifically to prevent rating riders low just for not tipping.
That's not how it works, but if it were, how in the world would that be dependable? Coupling a rating system to an "optional" tipping system is surely just about the worst idea in the world as far as incentives go.
4.94
Drivers don't see how much you tipped before leaving the rating on uber. With lyft, they could technically go back and edit your rating within 24 hrs of the ride.
Drivers don't see how much you tipped before leaving the rating on uber. With lyft, they could technically go back and edit your rating within 24 hrs of the ride.
4.87 and I don't tip.
Defaults matter.
If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm.
Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explicit amount every time, like on a restaurant bill?
Also, there's a whole subbranch of behavioral economics ('nudge' economics) that basically studies how to frame choices and set defaults to influence decision making [1]. Advertisers and politicians also take advantage of the power of framing and defaults.
So getting back to the ethics of the issue, it'd be interesting to see data on how much the default influences the actual tip paid, and how that incentivizes the actual business owner (e.g. set a higher tip rate, pay a lower wage?)
[1] http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/...
If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm.
Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explicit amount every time, like on a restaurant bill?
Also, there's a whole subbranch of behavioral economics ('nudge' economics) that basically studies how to frame choices and set defaults to influence decision making [1]. Advertisers and politicians also take advantage of the power of framing and defaults.
So getting back to the ethics of the issue, it'd be interesting to see data on how much the default influences the actual tip paid, and how that incentivizes the actual business owner (e.g. set a higher tip rate, pay a lower wage?)
[1] http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/...
> Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm.
Yes, and that's ok when a tip is deserved, but apps that ask me to tip counter help are bullshit. Those people aren't paid less than kitchen workers because they're not expected to earn tips, and they don't do anything beyond the minimal expected work (fetching a donut, operating a cash-register).
As you suggest, the tip app is a way to get proprietors to invest in POS so they can substitute tips for wages.
No one makes out (again) except some silicon valley executive.
Yes, and that's ok when a tip is deserved, but apps that ask me to tip counter help are bullshit. Those people aren't paid less than kitchen workers because they're not expected to earn tips, and they don't do anything beyond the minimal expected work (fetching a donut, operating a cash-register).
As you suggest, the tip app is a way to get proprietors to invest in POS so they can substitute tips for wages.
No one makes out (again) except some silicon valley executive.
It's such an obvious ploy that it is actually offensive, and makes me feel like I want to tip less just to punish the system designer for their presumption.
I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.
I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut, and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair.
Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.
Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.
Same at a restaurant. They are charging me for food in a nice environment. What am I tipping for? I don't want a nice conversation with my waiter.
The expectation of tipping at a restaurant exists to allow you to punish the employee for bad service over the course of a meal by leaving a 0% tip.
It doesn’t make any sense for a counter service restaurant or other such business that consists of a single interaction before paying, where if you receive bad service you already know that and can just say “actually never mind I’m going to a different place, cancel my order”.
It doesn’t make any sense for a counter service restaurant or other such business that consists of a single interaction before paying, where if you receive bad service you already know that and can just say “actually never mind I’m going to a different place, cancel my order”.
Is it reasonable to think of this tip in terms of percentages?
I'd say, yes. The honest price you're paying is price + tip. If the default tip is such a large percentage the pricing is dishonest.
I'd say, yes.
On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.
On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.
Between a $15 bottle and a $30 dollar bottle I wouldn't expect a big difference in service level, so double the tip would not be justified. So I can see what you mean, the connection between price and services rendered is a loose one.
Although if I'm in a restaurant with $500 wines I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences and the food I ordered. That is a lot different from just bringing the bottle.
I expect the restaurant to also be a lot cleaner and more detail-oriented with its service and presentation in that price range.
All in all I think tipping in general is wrong though. The chef making my food has the most influence on my experience and at the same time usually doesn't get a tip (I live in Germany currently, so no tipping out here, but even in the US I think they never get that much). I think waiters are obviously opposed to getting rid of tips. They might complain about the lower minimum wage, but the fact is if they're friendly they get a lot more money than for any unskilled job, especially because tips aren't taxed.
A friend of mine in uni used to waitress at a bar. She said her wage is 4€/h. I asked her why she's doing it. She said she gets between 30€/h in tax free tips. That's roughly the net wage of an engineer in Europe (although you don't get the payments into social security, but most people don't think that far ahead). And this was in Germany, a low tipping country. I imagine in the US if you're friendly and fast at serving you can make much more.
Although if I'm in a restaurant with $500 wines I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences and the food I ordered. That is a lot different from just bringing the bottle.
I expect the restaurant to also be a lot cleaner and more detail-oriented with its service and presentation in that price range.
All in all I think tipping in general is wrong though. The chef making my food has the most influence on my experience and at the same time usually doesn't get a tip (I live in Germany currently, so no tipping out here, but even in the US I think they never get that much). I think waiters are obviously opposed to getting rid of tips. They might complain about the lower minimum wage, but the fact is if they're friendly they get a lot more money than for any unskilled job, especially because tips aren't taxed.
A friend of mine in uni used to waitress at a bar. She said her wage is 4€/h. I asked her why she's doing it. She said she gets between 30€/h in tax free tips. That's roughly the net wage of an engineer in Europe (although you don't get the payments into social security, but most people don't think that far ahead). And this was in Germany, a low tipping country. I imagine in the US if you're friendly and fast at serving you can make much more.
I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences
Sure, but most restaurants that have $500 bottles of wind also have $50 bottles of wine and I'd expect the same level of service even if I end up ordering the $50 bottle of wine. So even there it feels like tips should be 'constant' for a given order.
Sure, but most restaurants that have $500 bottles of wind also have $50 bottles of wine and I'd expect the same level of service even if I end up ordering the $50 bottle of wine. So even there it feels like tips should be 'constant' for a given order.
I dunno if it's socially acceptable or not, but I generally tip a flat rate on alcohol.
I’m more annoyed about sit down restaurants that automatically add “living wage fees” or “aca coverage costs” to bills before tip.
How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include wage costs, then bill for a higher amount.
It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the price into the menu cost), so it’s dishonest pricing and also convoluted tip theft.
How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include wage costs, then bill for a higher amount.
It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the price into the menu cost), so it’s dishonest pricing and also convoluted tip theft.
I suspect the practices you describe are politically motivated advertising of prices (and related to price discrimination).
To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."
To add on an ACA coverage fee is to imply that, without mandatory healthcare, the restaurant could afford to give you a better price. This is a right of center nudge toward action: "You're in favor of mandatory healthcare, and here is what it's costing you."
Both fees are crass, tone-deaf choices but, unless the receipt literally says, "we take this out of the tip," it isn't theft. You're irritated (reasonably) but are choosing to tip less, which seems like picking out the wrong party to punish for restaurant policy.
Tip well, and then tell the owner that you won't be eating there again because of the politically motivated fees.
To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."
To add on an ACA coverage fee is to imply that, without mandatory healthcare, the restaurant could afford to give you a better price. This is a right of center nudge toward action: "You're in favor of mandatory healthcare, and here is what it's costing you."
Both fees are crass, tone-deaf choices but, unless the receipt literally says, "we take this out of the tip," it isn't theft. You're irritated (reasonably) but are choosing to tip less, which seems like picking out the wrong party to punish for restaurant policy.
Tip well, and then tell the owner that you won't be eating there again because of the politically motivated fees.
> To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."
No, it isn't. It's a fee that started showing up in places like Seattle (and probably SF) after the minimum wage was raised, as a right-of-center jerk signal: "I would charge you less and screw my employees harder but the law won't allow me".
No, it isn't. It's a fee that started showing up in places like Seattle (and probably SF) after the minimum wage was raised, as a right-of-center jerk signal: "I would charge you less and screw my employees harder but the law won't allow me".
No, you're thinking of a different thing. In SF some restaurant will have an "SF employee mandate" line, a 2% surcharge or so, to account for a local law. That's a protest against the law: it's the same principle behind listing tax-excluded prices, basically making sure people see how much the local taxes cost them.
A smaller set of restaurant does something different. They list some prices, and then in the fine print at the bottom they say "a 6% surcharge will be added to provide a living wage in SF", or something. This is not to comply with any local tax or law, it's just paying your employees more on your own accord, but then excluding an arbitrary percentage of that from your listed prices because... I have no idea why. But all places I've seen that do this have been very left-of-center.
A smaller set of restaurant does something different. They list some prices, and then in the fine print at the bottom they say "a 6% surcharge will be added to provide a living wage in SF", or something. This is not to comply with any local tax or law, it's just paying your employees more on your own accord, but then excluding an arbitrary percentage of that from your listed prices because... I have no idea why. But all places I've seen that do this have been very left-of-center.
Well, then they're both right-of-center bird flips...
My point remains the same: anyone is right to get pissed of about these fees, but tipping less punishes the server and not the owner who instituted the fees. A better solution is to tip normally, ask to speak to the owner (or a manager), explain you will not be patronizing the business again (and why), and then leave.
My point remains the same: anyone is right to get pissed of about these fees, but tipping less punishes the server and not the owner who instituted the fees. A better solution is to tip normally, ask to speak to the owner (or a manager), explain you will not be patronizing the business again (and why), and then leave.
Agreed, I don't care what their reasons are. It still amounts to a secret, extra charge that you did not know about until after the bill was received. If this happened to me, and it was not clearly posted on the menu that a fee would be added, I would absolutely refuse to pay it.
In Seattle at least, you'd be legally in the right to do so.
I've never seen such things, but unless it's stated clearly somewhere beforehand on the menu or elsewhere, I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay such bullshit costs. You should bring it up to the manager and ask why you're being charged for things you didn't order. Those restaurants are clearly run by greedy assholes, so they should be confronted.
I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.
It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service.
Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip.
Restaurant owners basically need to conspicuously state on the menu that service is included and the money will go to servers (and bussers, bartenders, etc.). But if you're a restaurant owner, do you want your menu dominated by a statement about your labor policies? There's a reason it's only really been tried by big name celebrity chefs, not your corner diner or Thai place.
Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip.
Restaurant owners basically need to conspicuously state on the menu that service is included and the money will go to servers (and bussers, bartenders, etc.). But if you're a restaurant owner, do you want your menu dominated by a statement about your labor policies? There's a reason it's only really been tried by big name celebrity chefs, not your corner diner or Thai place.
>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service.
Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least.
People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$.
edit:
>Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip.
If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business.
Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).
Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least.
People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$.
edit:
>Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip.
If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business.
Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).
As an employer you are supposed to pay your share of FICA and unemployment taxes on tips earned by employees as well as withhold income tax on them.
Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.
Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.
The IRS would need to crack down on the individual servers, who are the ones misreporting their tips.
As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.
As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.
I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability
I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered.
Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
>Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.
This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.
> If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business.
This would be true if people were rational.
And if people actually read everything presented to them.
All it takes is a week working any sort of customer-facing service job to see that neither are true.
This would be true if people were rational.
And if people actually read everything presented to them.
All it takes is a week working any sort of customer-facing service job to see that neither are true.
If your plan to change something is "everyone will start doing something" without anything being done to organize that coordination, then your plan has failed before it starts.
>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service.
I'd actually argue that's the fastest route TO fixing the problem!
When money is on the line, I guarantee that service workers will correctly look to the employer for correcting their wage, rather than trying to exploit good graces of people who happen to eat at the restaurant.
Tipping is a total sham
I'd actually argue that's the fastest route TO fixing the problem!
When money is on the line, I guarantee that service workers will correctly look to the employer for correcting their wage, rather than trying to exploit good graces of people who happen to eat at the restaurant.
Tipping is a total sham
It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either.
It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.
It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.
It also harms the tipped worker.
How many times have you seen a young service worker prostitute their feelings towards some arsehole or bitch, because the worker really needed the income?
I live in a mostly tip-free country, and I am sure most front line workers here have a lot more agency to deal with nasty customers. Although the downside is that service staff have few ways to earn more except by changing jobs...
How many times have you seen a young service worker prostitute their feelings towards some arsehole or bitch, because the worker really needed the income?
I live in a mostly tip-free country, and I am sure most front line workers here have a lot more agency to deal with nasty customers. Although the downside is that service staff have few ways to earn more except by changing jobs...
> ...Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either.
If tips are handled in the digital (as opposed to cash), doesn't that change the meta with respect to traceability?
If tips are handled in the digital (as opposed to cash), doesn't that change the meta with respect to traceability?
It's not a tax exemption, it's tax evasion. Same for all those "cash only" places - they're simply not declaring most of their income.
> Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either.
This is quite illegal. Tips are income, and still have to be taxed.
This is quite illegal. Tips are income, and still have to be taxed.
Or, you know, business owners could pay their workers enough that it doesn't matter.
The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%.
I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend on this class of labour I am completely aware of the immediate pay consequence, but even with this,
I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture.
The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.
I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend on this class of labour I am completely aware of the immediate pay consequence, but even with this,
I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture.
The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.
For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture.
Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry doesn't mean that the only way to survive is to force workers to live off their tips. In so many cases it seems like tipping culture merely serves to hide the true cost of a meal or service.
Similarly, the odd practice of not including any taxes in the sticker price on goods. This one in particular feels anti-consumer, and seems to persist because sellers worry that their prices, if listed including taxes, would seem higher than the competition. I'm surprised more retailers don't buck this trend more often; realising that taxes were included in Cafe du Monde's list price for their coffee and biegnets made the experience even more enjoyable than it otherwise would have been, and definitely contributed to a few of the midnight treks I made to get that particular treat.
Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in the industry doesn't mean that the only way to survive is to force workers to live off their tips. In so many cases it seems like tipping culture merely serves to hide the true cost of a meal or service.
Similarly, the odd practice of not including any taxes in the sticker price on goods. This one in particular feels anti-consumer, and seems to persist because sellers worry that their prices, if listed including taxes, would seem higher than the competition. I'm surprised more retailers don't buck this trend more often; realising that taxes were included in Cafe du Monde's list price for their coffee and biegnets made the experience even more enjoyable than it otherwise would have been, and definitely contributed to a few of the midnight treks I made to get that particular treat.
Speaking about "unintended consequences", I would like to see a study if there's any correlation between heavy tipping culture and service quality. So far in my travels the US has been the place where waiters are the "nicest" while places with little tipping (but high menu pricing, ex. in Europe) I've had mixed service quality (but generally significantly worse than in the US).
I live in Germany, what the US tourists usually call "bad service" (because they were being rude or not happy enough) is simply expected here. Nobody where I live expects servers, cashiers or taxi drivers to talk to you beyond the necessary or fake a smile, in fact, my sister worked as a server and was told on no uncertain terms that faking a smile was an absolute no-go. (Though this is less common in the southern European states, especially tourists locations)
Tipping is generally only restaurants and taxis, where you simply round up to the next 5€ or 10€ and the waiter keeps the rest.
In my experience, I find US servers very unpleasantly/uncomfortably nice/happy while not really focusing on the service quality itself (food quality, accuracy of order or similar).
Tipping is generally only restaurants and taxis, where you simply round up to the next 5€ or 10€ and the waiter keeps the rest.
In my experience, I find US servers very unpleasantly/uncomfortably nice/happy while not really focusing on the service quality itself (food quality, accuracy of order or similar).
The flipside is that I can't just sit and eat or drink in peace in the US.
I am either badgered because of a schedule ("how is everything?", inevitably mid-chew), or badgered to buy something ("another round?", "want to see the dessert menu?") or -- just as annoying -- totally invisible if I am judged as no longer having money-making potential.
"Good service" is relative. What I want is to make an order, enjoy myself, then leave, with a minimum of fuss. I need a waiter. I don't need a bestest buddy evar!!1! who dabbles in bringing me food and drinks as a hobby.
I am either badgered because of a schedule ("how is everything?", inevitably mid-chew), or badgered to buy something ("another round?", "want to see the dessert menu?") or -- just as annoying -- totally invisible if I am judged as no longer having money-making potential.
"Good service" is relative. What I want is to make an order, enjoy myself, then leave, with a minimum of fuss. I need a waiter. I don't need a bestest buddy evar!!1! who dabbles in bringing me food and drinks as a hobby.
For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the same tipping culture.
Thats basically my point: we import many things, but not all things in other parts of the world (from the USA) and tipping culture is something we're pushing back on, preferring to see a realistic minimum wage fight instead (it is a fight: overall I think minimum wage is nothing like high enough, but it is usually higher than in the USA in relative purchasing power)
The tax thing totally amazed me. in Australia it is mandatory to quote price inclusive of GST which is our version of VAT, and this horrid practice of pretending there is no tax consequence and then applying it at the check out in US stores really upsets me. I kind of get it: this is the libertarian push back, saying "see how cheap things would be if only those nasty governments state and federal didn't levy taxes" but really, its a trick. Its not what I am going to pay, which is pretty much what I care about.
Thats basically my point: we import many things, but not all things in other parts of the world (from the USA) and tipping culture is something we're pushing back on, preferring to see a realistic minimum wage fight instead (it is a fight: overall I think minimum wage is nothing like high enough, but it is usually higher than in the USA in relative purchasing power)
The tax thing totally amazed me. in Australia it is mandatory to quote price inclusive of GST which is our version of VAT, and this horrid practice of pretending there is no tax consequence and then applying it at the check out in US stores really upsets me. I kind of get it: this is the libertarian push back, saying "see how cheap things would be if only those nasty governments state and federal didn't levy taxes" but really, its a trick. Its not what I am going to pay, which is pretty much what I care about.
Also in Australia, but spent a decent amount of time in California and travelling to other parts of the US.
So many payment terminals (bank issued as well as square etc) now have the tipping option turned on, but most people here just seem to ignore them. I can understand why restaurants etc would have the option turned on - it's free money! and some people want to tip - but it's a little bit of extra friction where there used to be none.
With respect to GST, some quotes I see have it broken out as a second line item and 'advertise' the non-inclusive figure, but that seems very rare. Something even better than just including the full price on the sticker is something that came in a few years ago in all the supermarkets, the price is listed per unit in addition to total price. So a block of cheese that costs $5.20 also lists the price per kg or 100g, say $26.00/kg
So many payment terminals (bank issued as well as square etc) now have the tipping option turned on, but most people here just seem to ignore them. I can understand why restaurants etc would have the option turned on - it's free money! and some people want to tip - but it's a little bit of extra friction where there used to be none.
With respect to GST, some quotes I see have it broken out as a second line item and 'advertise' the non-inclusive figure, but that seems very rare. Something even better than just including the full price on the sticker is something that came in a few years ago in all the supermarkets, the price is listed per unit in addition to total price. So a block of cheese that costs $5.20 also lists the price per kg or 100g, say $26.00/kg
> I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture.
The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.
It is far from clear that getting rid of tips is good for tipped workers, at the end of the day [1]. Basically, there may be unintended consequences.
Also, due to a quirk of tax law, getting rid of tips would result in higher total prices. This is because we don't pay sales tax on the tip currently. If this payment were built into the cost of the meal, sales tax would go up. Not a huge difference, but it adds up — and restaurants are low-margin businesses to begin with.
1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/get-rid-of-tips-and-...
The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.
It is far from clear that getting rid of tips is good for tipped workers, at the end of the day [1]. Basically, there may be unintended consequences.
Also, due to a quirk of tax law, getting rid of tips would result in higher total prices. This is because we don't pay sales tax on the tip currently. If this payment were built into the cost of the meal, sales tax would go up. Not a huge difference, but it adds up — and restaurants are low-margin businesses to begin with.
1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/get-rid-of-tips-and-...
I don't buy this argument. I understand he (and I guess you) believe it, but I think this argument doesn't reflect real world experience from non-tipping culture (I mean about net loss of high end staff)
If you don't pay your wait staff above-award and want to keep the best, I think you need to think about their value to your business.
The tax cost part, I recognize. I am not blind to unintended consequences, but this one? Not big enough to make me feel like reversing course.
I'm reminded of a great "bill tidy" cartoon from the 1970s of a porter in a USSR hotel holding his tip-hand out to the guy he's just carried bags into the room while speaking into a not very hidden microphone tipping is evil and diminishes the dignity of labour
If you don't pay your wait staff above-award and want to keep the best, I think you need to think about their value to your business.
The tax cost part, I recognize. I am not blind to unintended consequences, but this one? Not big enough to make me feel like reversing course.
I'm reminded of a great "bill tidy" cartoon from the 1970s of a porter in a USSR hotel holding his tip-hand out to the guy he's just carried bags into the room while speaking into a not very hidden microphone tipping is evil and diminishes the dignity of labour
I don't really have a dog in the fight, but in reading about this issue I've seen several articles about how some restaurants have tried out getting rid of tips – and then reverted to tips fairly quickly because it didn't go well [1-2].
I'm not aware of cases where restaurants got rid of tipping and then things went awesome — and I assume that if this had happened then it would be covered in the media just like the failed attempts were.
1: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res...
2: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/the-l...
I'm not aware of cases where restaurants got rid of tipping and then things went awesome — and I assume that if this had happened then it would be covered in the media just like the failed attempts were.
1: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res...
2: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/the-l...
I like how you think.
I especially think you're in the right with the opportunity for Californians to walk off the tip culture. This would set a great precedent to reproduce this on a national level, if done correctly.
The minimum wage in San Francisco is $15 per hour. That's including tipped work: if you don't make that amount from wages and tips you're supposed to be paid extra.
I suspect distributing the cost of the money a restaurant makes from tips across all the customers would lead to many restaurants closing.
A quick absurdist example - if a restaurant has 10 customers and 1 gives a $1000 tip, increasing all the bills by $100 instead would mean the 9 customers who didn't tip would likely stop eating there.
A quick absurdist example - if a restaurant has 10 customers and 1 gives a $1000 tip, increasing all the bills by $100 instead would mean the 9 customers who didn't tip would likely stop eating there.
These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar (vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces' existence and I don't leave the situation with negative feelings.
Why feel guilty about it at all? Up here in Canada we have had pin validated transactions for a long time now, and the terminals have had tip prompts at least since we switched to chip and pin. It is just a reflex now when ordering at a counter to select "$ tip" and hit enter for zero tip. Annoying, but when every place seems to do it, it is easy to get over the feelings of manipulation and guilt.
1) I don't like feeling manipulated, regardless of if I am able to get over it. It's still a negative experience.
2) I belong to an ethnic minority that stereotypically does not tip well (though I don't see this in practice with others of my ethnic group). I don't want any judgment of me or my ethnic group based on if the person handing me my donut figures out, either by looking or by watching my hand motions, whether I tipped.
3) I don't doubt your description of the interface. I experience a similar interface. If I have to be prompted for a tip, then have to decline, then feel manipulated and have to expend mental energy to "get over it" (as you say), have to think about how I'm representing my ethnic group, and contemplate my role in the socioeconomic inequality present between myself and the people in the service industry (as mentioned elsewhere in these comments), well then I'm going to reduce that to a 2 step process where I hand over cash and receive my purchase.
2) I belong to an ethnic minority that stereotypically does not tip well (though I don't see this in practice with others of my ethnic group). I don't want any judgment of me or my ethnic group based on if the person handing me my donut figures out, either by looking or by watching my hand motions, whether I tipped.
3) I don't doubt your description of the interface. I experience a similar interface. If I have to be prompted for a tip, then have to decline, then feel manipulated and have to expend mental energy to "get over it" (as you say), have to think about how I'm representing my ethnic group, and contemplate my role in the socioeconomic inequality present between myself and the people in the service industry (as mentioned elsewhere in these comments), well then I'm going to reduce that to a 2 step process where I hand over cash and receive my purchase.
I hate paying with square so much that I've sometimes paid cash or just lowered a given business' standing in my preference hierarchy so I have to deal with the hassle less often. Everything about it is awkward, not just the tipping. There's no consistency. Every place has a slightly different variation, sometimes you swipe the card on the pad, sometimes insert it into a detached device, sometimes you hand it to the cashier. Writing your name on the pad with your finger is annoying as hell. Pads and screens make some tasks worse in general.
Paying used to be so simple, now between chips and square it's become a hassle.
Paying used to be so simple, now between chips and square it's become a hassle.
It seems to me that tipping has evolved from an incentive and reward for good service to a form of voluntary workfare where those who have something to spare decide to share with those still struggling in the low end of the service economy.
I think that the history of tipping is more complex than that. My understanding is that at high end restaurants back in the day waitstaff paid the house for tables, and their entire income was from tips.
That being said, I’d much rather society move towards the idea that every job pay at least a living wage
That being said, I’d much rather society move towards the idea that every job pay at least a living wage
That's still true in some tipped industries. Hairstylists and barbers pay to rent "a chair" in the salon, and strippers pay their clubs to dance for the night.
If you go to a bar with "shot girls" who stroll around selling shots, they've often bought the booze from the bar to resell to you.
If you go to a bar with "shot girls" who stroll around selling shots, they've often bought the booze from the bar to resell to you.
Where did you hear that? Doesn't sound believable to me at all.
Leave “society” out of it. All it would take is for the people you’re attempting to help choose to stop voluntarily accepting to work for less than a living wage. It’s not your or anyone else’s place to tell them that they can’t or shouldn’t be able to do that if they choose.
Yeah, I think about this too. What proportion of people working for less than living wage would have to do this before there was movement. Being the last person is easy, being among the first is really hard.
That course of action would imply that they can get another job that pays a living wage.
yes! tipping is like a naturally occuring form of redistrbution of wealth in capitalist countries :) I personally view the evolution of tipping culture as positive on the whole.
and also, I think people tend to tip a bit higher if they feel good about the service, so it still incentivizes good service. When I visit Europe, I am reminded how nice the service industry in America is.
Nothing quite like holding the barrel of 'not being able to afford to live' to someones head to get them to give you great service. I'm reminded from a number of times when I travel to the US and talk with people from the service industry and finding out they are, anecdotally, mostly in financial crisis.
I've eaten in restaurants all over Europe and I'm genuinely amazed at how many Americans in this thread think the service is bad here. Personally I like my servers to stay out of the way unless I call them, instead of hovering around me with a huge fake grin wishing me a hollow "nice day" just because they want to extract money from me.
It's the same reason I just don't see the appeal of strip clubs - I can't stand people being "nice" to me just because they want me to give them money.
It's the same reason I just don't see the appeal of strip clubs - I can't stand people being "nice" to me just because they want me to give them money.
incentivizes good service
I understand it actually incentivizes being an attractive female who touches male diners.
I understand it actually incentivizes being an attractive female who touches male diners.
[deleted]
Or you could just have a living minimum wage, lol.
I am confused as to why it's standard to tip some low-paid workers but not others:
* Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them?
* Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them?
* Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them?
* The guy collecting trash from the streets to keep them clean is helping everyone, why not tip him?
It does seem at some point the tipping system will grow so large it'll collapse in on itself. Sadly though, places that have tried to move that direction, in NYC at least, seem to have struggled [0][1].
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res... [1]: http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php
* Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them?
* Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them?
* Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them?
* The guy collecting trash from the streets to keep them clean is helping everyone, why not tip him?
It does seem at some point the tipping system will grow so large it'll collapse in on itself. Sadly though, places that have tried to move that direction, in NYC at least, seem to have struggled [0][1].
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res... [1]: http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php
FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips. Most of the jobs you're talking about are not in the tipping wage category, and management just has to monitor carefully. Fast food has tons of computers to do exactly that, and even department stores have secret shoppers and cameras to observe staff. Grocery stores have crazy levels of cameras to monitor staff; I'd say about 70 percent of the cameras are pointed at the cashier (the remainder at you as you wander the store to calculate dwell time and deter theft). Trash collection I don't even know the company behind it let alone ever seen the driver. I assume they have GPS and cameras now that communities have moved to those machine arm trucks.
Tipping is a sort of economic hack; you the customer are responsible for evaluating service, and punishing inept or even just lazy service. You're the final buyer of the service, so in a way it's fair; just atypically lassiez-faire method versus the usual social hierarchy of companies paying managers to supervise service workers.
I figure if tipping dies, it will be because there's a separate economic hack undermining it. When you live somewhere where restaurants start and fail every month, the cost of a bad tipper reputation is pretty low. And if you adopt an upfront tip model to combat this, you're people's losing good faith as the fee-for-service model no longer applies -- which this article directly discusses.
All of which puts us in the awkward position of trying to figure out whether the lunch spot we visit is paying its staff a tipped wage without any actual service -- no bussing, no setting, and just a beeper to let you know you should grab your food.
Tipping is a sort of economic hack; you the customer are responsible for evaluating service, and punishing inept or even just lazy service. You're the final buyer of the service, so in a way it's fair; just atypically lassiez-faire method versus the usual social hierarchy of companies paying managers to supervise service workers.
I figure if tipping dies, it will be because there's a separate economic hack undermining it. When you live somewhere where restaurants start and fail every month, the cost of a bad tipper reputation is pretty low. And if you adopt an upfront tip model to combat this, you're people's losing good faith as the fee-for-service model no longer applies -- which this article directly discusses.
All of which puts us in the awkward position of trying to figure out whether the lunch spot we visit is paying its staff a tipped wage without any actual service -- no bussing, no setting, and just a beeper to let you know you should grab your food.
Thanks for the well-written and thoughtful response, you make lots of good points here about how store management provides incentive to non-tipped workers.
> FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips.
That's true, and tipping those workers is something one ought to do. My post was primarily in reaction to tipping expanding to new frontiers of employees who are paid a "regular" wage such as most coffee shop workers or waiters in states where there is no special tipped minimum wage.
In these cases, it seems strange that one job (food-related service) deserves tips while other jobs do not. I've seen many posts recently such as "Tip the bill challenge proves humanity has a heart" or "20% minimum tip or else", but have seen no such calls to help employees in other fields.
It does seem like the obvious ideal is that people who work full-time hours are able to support themselves in a non-extravagant but livable way. I don't claim to know the correct economic solution to get there though!
> FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips.
That's true, and tipping those workers is something one ought to do. My post was primarily in reaction to tipping expanding to new frontiers of employees who are paid a "regular" wage such as most coffee shop workers or waiters in states where there is no special tipped minimum wage.
In these cases, it seems strange that one job (food-related service) deserves tips while other jobs do not. I've seen many posts recently such as "Tip the bill challenge proves humanity has a heart" or "20% minimum tip or else", but have seen no such calls to help employees in other fields.
It does seem like the obvious ideal is that people who work full-time hours are able to support themselves in a non-extravagant but livable way. I don't claim to know the correct economic solution to get there though!
In the context of the article (CA and SF in particular), there is no tipped minimum wage. If your wage is minimum you make minimum, and that minimum is higher than most. If you make tips, they go on top.
Interesting, I thought OR was the only state like that. Of course, 'round here minimum wage is like 15 bucks, going by the ads on the In'n'out.
Edit: how do you account for this page which indicates a (slightly) lower tipped wage in CA? https://www.minimum-wage.org/california/tipped-employee-mini...
Edit: how do you account for this page which indicates a (slightly) lower tipped wage in CA? https://www.minimum-wage.org/california/tipped-employee-mini...
Don't know where that site is getting their info from. Try this for latest facts: https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
You can sanity check that website by looking up your OR (which the site claims has a tipped minimum wage).
You can sanity check that website by looking up your OR (which the site claims has a tipped minimum wage).
>if you make tips, they go on top
You mean they go under the table.
You mean they go under the table.
[deleted]
You can tip whomever you want; that’s pretty much how it starts anyway.
That's not really true, though! Some stores have policies against tipping, and it can be awkward if you try to tip someone who's not allowed to accept it.
Coat/bag check workers are a good example: most concert halls seem to encourage you to tip maybe $1 when you get your coat back, but a lot of museum coat check workers will refuse to accept a tip and may get flustered if you offer one.
I've never seen anyone try to tip in McDonald's or Old Navy, but I don't think you'd be doing anyone any favors if you tried. The cashier would probably be more worried about getting in trouble for handling the situation wrong than grateful.
Coat/bag check workers are a good example: most concert halls seem to encourage you to tip maybe $1 when you get your coat back, but a lot of museum coat check workers will refuse to accept a tip and may get flustered if you offer one.
I've never seen anyone try to tip in McDonald's or Old Navy, but I don't think you'd be doing anyone any favors if you tried. The cashier would probably be more worried about getting in trouble for handling the situation wrong than grateful.
I'm convinced that those systems have deliberately be made to push the customer to tip (more) and therefore increase the transaction fee for the payment operator (Square most of the time).
Most of the workdays, I go eat lunch at "order at the counter" places. The Square ipad is directly visible to everyone behind me in the line as they can all see that I put "No tip". More than once, I have seen people look back to check if other people in the line would see their choice, and subsequently change it to a "socially acceptable" tip of 15%.
Most of the workdays, I go eat lunch at "order at the counter" places. The Square ipad is directly visible to everyone behind me in the line as they can all see that I put "No tip". More than once, I have seen people look back to check if other people in the line would see their choice, and subsequently change it to a "socially acceptable" tip of 15%.
I never tip at an order-at-the-counter restaurant. If I place my order at the counter, and get my own drink, find my own table, etc., I'm not sure what there is to tip for.
Shifting the burden of paying employees to the customer via guilt and coercion is what's wrong here. Customers should not be made to feel like an asshole for not appreciating seeing their quoted price go up 20%. Lobbying Congress? Start with not supporting dickheads who do this. Charge 20% more and pay your employees properly
A number of restaurants have tried this, and more broadly, JCP tried something of the same sort (charge the "real" price, do away with the manipulative abstractions).
You start hemorrhaging customers. People's baselines for how much food costs are old and calcified, and customers flat out can't be counted on to act rationally and in their economic self interest.
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-marking-pri...
You start hemorrhaging customers. People's baselines for how much food costs are old and calcified, and customers flat out can't be counted on to act rationally and in their economic self interest.
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-marking-pri...
I'm aware of this research - it's a culture shift but it's not an immutable law of gravity. You need customers to start demanding this - it won't happen top down with restaurants.
Worth noting that California pays a "fair" minimum wage to tipped workers (as opposed to states that pay as little as $2.13/hr to tipped workers)
Where I am there are a lot of restaurants with the Square tablets on a pivot, and what I've noticed is that with fast-food-type places the worker will turn their head away while you enter the tip amount. Or they'll preselect, "no tip"
I too am annoyed by the ubiquity of these tip prompts, but the manners haven't changed. (It's been on credit card slips forever.) People shouldn't feel obligated to tip just because, say, it's the owner serving cold brew from his food truck.
I too am annoyed by the ubiquity of these tip prompts, but the manners haven't changed. (It's been on credit card slips forever.) People shouldn't feel obligated to tip just because, say, it's the owner serving cold brew from his food truck.
It feels like a dark pattern for sure. I tip for service and service only. I regularly hit the no tip button on the new interfaces. I wish I didn’t have to worry about tipping... I miss Uber when it abstracted that away. But alas it only works when they compensate drivers properly.
Tipping in general sucks. I feel like most of the time it’s manipulating customers into squeezing a little extra on the top. Just raise your prices.
Tipping in general sucks. I feel like most of the time it’s manipulating customers into squeezing a little extra on the top. Just raise your prices.
Was in a restaurant recently, asked for the bill and when it came it already had a 10% tip included in it and a big spiel about how the company wanted to treat their staff right and that if you wanted to opt out, you could... What cheek. Never going back there again and I've spread the word to my friends of mine.
I'm UK based by and by. Keep that nonsense in the US.
I'm UK based by and by. Keep that nonsense in the US.
Amazon Whole Foods delivery is the worst offender in this area. You finish your order and on the confirmation screen they add a tiny little line item for a preselected 10% tip. Suddenly your "free" delivery is now $15.
Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0.
I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed...
I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.
I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed...
I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.
I used to feel the same, but then I started to appreciate just how fortunate I am to not have to work in retail. This isn’t because I’m better. It’s just because I was born into the right situation.
I always tip now and use the experience as a reminder not to take my fortune for granted. It’s also a reminder that everything I have might be taken away at any time.
I always tip now and use the experience as a reminder not to take my fortune for granted. It’s also a reminder that everything I have might be taken away at any time.
Just like George Carlin said: "The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep 'em showin' up at those jobs."
It's too bad the owners of such establishments don't remind themselves in the same way by giving their employees living wages. I too am fortunate and thankful and have been duped many times but you know who is a lot more fortunate? The owners of these places trying to displace their costs onto us.
If they want to raise prices to give those folks a reasonable wage I'm fine with it.
The tipping system is not a good way to make things fair. People do not tip fairly as it is.
The tipping system is not a good way to make things fair. People do not tip fairly as it is.
I don't think retail is a bad job. I would hate to be stuck at a computer all day writing code and dealing with non-technical managers and clients.
Someone who works a job where they receive consistent tips can make a lot of money, and if it's in cash it's tax free.
Plus the tips never go to the kitchen who do all the actual work.
Someone who works a job where they receive consistent tips can make a lot of money, and if it's in cash it's tax free.
Plus the tips never go to the kitchen who do all the actual work.
> and if it's in cash it's tax free.
Obligatory nit: Being paid in cash is not exempt from regular income tax.
Obligatory nit: Being paid in cash is not exempt from regular income tax.
Just because you don't personally pay tax on that income doesn't mean it's "tax free". You may be getting away with it (for now), but income is taxable, regardless of whether it's paid in cash.
It seems strange to ask for a tip before the service has been rendered, if the tip is an incentive for good service.
It is strange. Tip them because they bothered .... I've not even seen my food yet...
So I'm making an assumption here but... how many orders of magnitude separate your pay and that of the people making your food?
Also: how much spit do you estimate you've consumed when eating at places where you're a regular who is known to never tip?
Also: how much spit do you estimate you've consumed when eating at places where you're a regular who is known to never tip?
Raise the prices, fine by me.
I just don't like the tipping system. If you're worried about fairness I belive studies have shown that white women in their 30s get the best tips. Minority? Not so much.
I tip at restaurants, just not fast casual places where there is effectively no service beyond someone at the front.
I just don't like the tipping system. If you're worried about fairness I belive studies have shown that white women in their 30s get the best tips. Minority? Not so much.
I tip at restaurants, just not fast casual places where there is effectively no service beyond someone at the front.
So you see the tip as a sort of bribe to stop those filthy poors contaminating your food?
Tipping and bribes goes hand in hand...
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...
I really don't like how this is moving from just food-service workers to pretty much everything.
The #1 reason I liked Uber/Lyft was you didn't have to tip. Then the margins didn't make sense and now they ask for it. I shouldn't have to subsidize those rides with tips because you're not paying the driver enough. Just charge me the price you need to charge me.
The #1 reason I liked Uber/Lyft was you didn't have to tip. Then the margins didn't make sense and now they ask for it. I shouldn't have to subsidize those rides with tips because you're not paying the driver enough. Just charge me the price you need to charge me.
I'm glad you acknowledge they don't pay the drivers enough. I think most of them don't realize what the wear and tear on their vehicles costs, and just get giddy when they start seeing the money come in.
In this scenario, especially in SF as a tech worker, you should feel guilty if you can afford to spare a dollar for someone on minimum wage for a tip but are reaching for the zero button. Having the iPad highlight your stingyness is not a problem with the technology.
Couldn't agree more. Don't like tipping an extra dollar for a coffee once in a while? Make it at home. If you can't spare $15 a week to tip service employees when you're sporting a six-figure salary, shame on you.
If you're a regular at a coffeeshop/fast casual place, another perk of tipping is that you quickly become known as a tipper and employees will come to like you. If you need a selfish reason to tip beyond having the employees like you, sometimes they'll even hook you up with free/discounted stuff.
It's easy to just eat out one fewer time a week and redistribute the would-have-been-spent-anyway money as tips to service employees, regardless of how much you think they actually 'did' for you.
If you're a regular at a coffeeshop/fast casual place, another perk of tipping is that you quickly become known as a tipper and employees will come to like you. If you need a selfish reason to tip beyond having the employees like you, sometimes they'll even hook you up with free/discounted stuff.
It's easy to just eat out one fewer time a week and redistribute the would-have-been-spent-anyway money as tips to service employees, regardless of how much you think they actually 'did' for you.
I live in either NZ, the UK or China, depending on work. None of these have a tipping culture. It's the cultural and psychological aspects that are fascinating, particularly the comments that list proof that in the US, if outlets show real prices, i.e. those that the customer will actually pay, including tax and gratuities, people go elsewhere, to outlets that give a false sense of economy.
Personally, I've found that when in the US I felt the food to be cheap, but when I pay the bill, the actual cost to be largely equivalent to other western countries. But, I still harbour the irrational feeling that the US is cheaper, even though the receipts I submit don't reflect this "feeling".
Tipping (and non listed taxes) is the 99c cost point writ large. To me it seems, all other considerations (discomfort, worker's rights, fairness, etc.) are overwhelmed by the lower price ticket.
Thoughts?
Personally, I've found that when in the US I felt the food to be cheap, but when I pay the bill, the actual cost to be largely equivalent to other western countries. But, I still harbour the irrational feeling that the US is cheaper, even though the receipts I submit don't reflect this "feeling".
Tipping (and non listed taxes) is the 99c cost point writ large. To me it seems, all other considerations (discomfort, worker's rights, fairness, etc.) are overwhelmed by the lower price ticket.
Thoughts?
The worst is when I see this at a self-serve frozen yogurt shop.
That one really blows my mind. I literally filled the cup with froyo and all the fixins myself. My entire interaction with the employee is placing it on their scale and giving them money. Why would I tip that?
That one really blows my mind. I literally filled the cup with froyo and all the fixins myself. My entire interaction with the employee is placing it on their scale and giving them money. Why would I tip that?
I had thought of something profound today:
Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out.
Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes. (Their wage is $1/6 minutes, less after taxes)
I received very little service, and nothing outside of what "their job" would entail. In fact, at one point the sever was impatient and made me feel rushed. Tipping is an abomination of a custom.
Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out.
Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes. (Their wage is $1/6 minutes, less after taxes)
I received very little service, and nothing outside of what "their job" would entail. In fact, at one point the sever was impatient and made me feel rushed. Tipping is an abomination of a custom.
The tip is often split between all the workers on duty, with different splits depending upon position.
Hence the "let's pretend they get their full tip" statement.
It's also taxed, what's your point? Mine still stands.
It's also taxed, what's your point? Mine still stands.
It is only split between the workers not managers or owners. And since they don't really do anything for your tip anyway, seems fine to split it amongst the workers.
As for taxes... Only if it's reported. If you tipped in cash, you can be fairly certain that it will not get reported.
As for taxes... Only if it's reported. If you tipped in cash, you can be fairly certain that it will not get reported.
Related:
> A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...
> A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...
Considering the screen only has presets for 20%, 25%, and 30%, I’m not at all surprised.
It definitely makes a difference for me. Now that I use the app, I have a default tip percentage that I no longer think about. It was a lot harder to mentally justify tipping when I had to do the math in my head.
Completely irrational, but real.
Completely irrational, but real.
There needs to be a ban and removal of the tipping requirement altogether. I know, easier said than done.
I'm just saying, many European countries do not have tips embedded in their culture, and that's a good thing.
If I go to a sit-down restaurant, I'm already being marked up for that - before tipping.
If I have some food delivered, I'm paying for the delivery service, or I am being marked up on the item's price - before tipping.
By doing that, we ensure that the salaries of employees are legally decent (rather than them counting on unpredictable extras to make ends meet).
This forces the employer not to direct all of the margin into his own pocket while squeezing the employee's salary.
I personally have never tipped anyone unless I was excessively well catered for, or someone went out of their way to enhance the experience I was already paying for in the first place. That's what tipping must be, not forcing the customer to actually compensate for your employees being underpaid. I'm sorry for anyone who has a lower salary than normal because the boss expects that tips will bridge the gap. If needed, I'm much happier to pay a higher price (relatively). Indeed, I propose that most of the time, the prices are already including all costs and the margin, and that the owners direct the whole margin to them while squeezing the employees out of it and having them rely on tips to make a decent living. The solution to low salaries is not tipping and guilting people into paying extra cost for no reason whatsoever and for something that's already marked up to the appropriate level, it is better salaries framed by law or contract.
I personally have never tipped anyone unless I was excessively well catered for, or someone went out of their way to enhance the experience I was already paying for in the first place. That's what tipping must be, not forcing the customer to actually compensate for your employees being underpaid. I'm sorry for anyone who has a lower salary than normal because the boss expects that tips will bridge the gap. If needed, I'm much happier to pay a higher price (relatively). Indeed, I propose that most of the time, the prices are already including all costs and the margin, and that the owners direct the whole margin to them while squeezing the employees out of it and having them rely on tips to make a decent living. The solution to low salaries is not tipping and guilting people into paying extra cost for no reason whatsoever and for something that's already marked up to the appropriate level, it is better salaries framed by law or contract.
How do you ban a social expectation? Tipping is never required, it is just socially expected.
Good point.
To answer your question blatantly: by law. Not saying "you can't ever tip". But more to frame the employer/employee contract and prevent the employee relying on tips, and instead having a contractual/legal framework for his salary.
Let me be clear in saying however that I'm not a fan of shaping culture changes by legal requirements. So I'm second guessing myself a little too now, but I really think the culturally accepted tipping expectation is detrimental overall as per my original comment.
Let me be clear in saying however that I'm not a fan of shaping culture changes by legal requirements. So I'm second guessing myself a little too now, but I really think the culturally accepted tipping expectation is detrimental overall as per my original comment.
The employees who don't do anything yet think it's right to shame others into tipping them for nothing are the ones who should be ashamed. After accidentally tipping a few times for no reason, I have made it a priority to resist this bullshit. It's not my place as a customer to pay more for no reason just because most jobs in this country pay shit and I'm supposed to feel pity for the employees. Yeah the whole situation sucks and we should eliminate tipping altogether and have a livable minimum wage, but this is one way workers are not going to get sympathy. We can all fight for a proper minimum wage or they can nickel and dime the rest of us into not caring about their situation due to this kind of bullshit. I for one am going to specifically make sure not to tip wherever no service exists and whenever asked to before any service rendered, even if there will be a service rendered. I hope others have enough common sense and character to do the same.
My personal rules are:
1) If I pay before I get service (fast food, coffee shop counter, etc), there's no tip. The point of tipping is for service, I'm not pre-tipping you for service you haven't given me yet.
2) The vast majority of the time I tip 15%. It's extremely rare I see service that's outstandingly poor or outstandingly good. Most are just average.
1) If I pay before I get service (fast food, coffee shop counter, etc), there's no tip. The point of tipping is for service, I'm not pre-tipping you for service you haven't given me yet.
2) The vast majority of the time I tip 15%. It's extremely rare I see service that's outstandingly poor or outstandingly good. Most are just average.
It's very difficult to change tipping expectations. Uber unsuccessfully tried to maintain no tipping through its app. After driver complaints[1] and pressure from NYC[2] and others, Uber added tipping.
[1] https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-rac...
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-ub...
[1] https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-rac...
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-ub...
I give credit to the few shops that default to "no tip" — presumably because so little service is involved in their transactions. Of course, it's fine to offer an option to add a tip, which is basically just the digital equivalent of a tip jar. But for the shops where service is minimal, it is appropriate to set the default to be no tip.
The real question is wether the workers are being paid the tipped or no tips minimum wage. The former being much less than the later in much of the US
I'm in CA so don't encounter this issue. Is it common in other states for workers in an establishment where you order at a counter and pick up your food from a counter to be paid a tipped minimum wage? I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage?
> I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage?
Employers are required to do that.
However, as is most often the case at the low end of the job ladder, enforcing your employment rights against your employer is a very efficient way to find yourself unemployed and--in smaller communities where "people are gonna talk"--blackballed from ever holding a job again.
Employers are required to do that.
However, as is most often the case at the low end of the job ladder, enforcing your employment rights against your employer is a very efficient way to find yourself unemployed and--in smaller communities where "people are gonna talk"--blackballed from ever holding a job again.
I totally understand that. I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of employers paying a tipped minimum wage to the sorts of businesses described (where employees interact with employees in the same way as in fast food establishments, roughly).
Unfortunately tipping is how these employers are legally permitted to pay their employees
Removing the tipping without increasing the pay is even more offensive and from my experience is a predominantly tech phenomenon (1)
(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190
Removing the tipping without increasing the pay is even more offensive and from my experience is a predominantly tech phenomenon (1)
(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190
To throw travelers a bone, regulations should require the screens to show the average tip.
In fact, it should be required to be the default.
In fact, it should be required to be the default.
That sounds awesome. One of the guys I knew in college was from Jamaica and literally never tipped anyone until senior year because he didn't know that you were supposed to.
Now all these other industries are trying to add tipping as a custom and and I have no idea who that actually goes to, what they make without it nor how much other people tip.
Now all these other industries are trying to add tipping as a custom and and I have no idea who that actually goes to, what they make without it nor how much other people tip.
I was just coerced.
I spent a decent amount of money to get my car detailed, and was presented with a Square app prompting for a tip. I did tip because it felt like not doing so was somehow improper. After thinking about it, I will not do this again.
I spent a decent amount of money to get my car detailed, and was presented with a Square app prompting for a tip. I did tip because it felt like not doing so was somehow improper. After thinking about it, I will not do this again.
The tip calculator on these is surprisingly broken in obvious ways. For example, if you order a cup of coffee and merchandise or a bag of beans, it calculates 15% on the entire order. Wtf!
I think in many situations tip calculators focus on the wrong thing. They are answering the question "How much do I pay given the tip percent?"
Often the actual question I want answered is "What tip will I be giving if I pay various whole dollar amounts?"
For example, let's say I order a pizza for delivery, and the mandatory charges come to $20.60, and let's also say I consider 15% a reasonable tip.
A normal tip calculator will tell me that I should give the pizza guy $23.69.
Screw that, I'm not futzing around with trying to find $0.69 in coins, and I'm certainly not going to give him $24 or $25 and ask for $0.31 or $1.31 in change.
Nope. I'm going to pay an integral number of dollars and say "keep the change".
What I want a tip calculator to do is give me a table:
I made an Apple Dashboard widget to do just that, and it worked out quite well. If I had ever gotten around to learning mobile development, that was going to be my first app for learning.
Often the actual question I want answered is "What tip will I be giving if I pay various whole dollar amounts?"
For example, let's say I order a pizza for delivery, and the mandatory charges come to $20.60, and let's also say I consider 15% a reasonable tip.
A normal tip calculator will tell me that I should give the pizza guy $23.69.
Screw that, I'm not futzing around with trying to find $0.69 in coins, and I'm certainly not going to give him $24 or $25 and ask for $0.31 or $1.31 in change.
Nope. I'm going to pay an integral number of dollars and say "keep the change".
What I want a tip calculator to do is give me a table:
Pay Effective Tip
$21 1.9%
$22 6.8%
$23 11.7%
$24 16.5%
$25 21.4%
I made an Apple Dashboard widget to do just that, and it worked out quite well. If I had ever gotten around to learning mobile development, that was going to be my first app for learning.
You don’t need to tip for coffee anyway, that’s what the charge for the coffee is for.
You usually do tip on the full amount right?
Usually in restaurants where all the of the goods are individually prepare / served.
Many cafes sell also beans and other merchandise that are manufactured or made in batches, and can be $20 per item. So tipping on those items would be similar than you tipping in grocery stores or other stores that sell goods. Like you buy a $20k car, do you tip them 20%?
Personally, I always just change the default calculation and tip on the service items like $1 for coffee/drink.
Many cafes sell also beans and other merchandise that are manufactured or made in batches, and can be $20 per item. So tipping on those items would be similar than you tipping in grocery stores or other stores that sell goods. Like you buy a $20k car, do you tip them 20%?
Personally, I always just change the default calculation and tip on the service items like $1 for coffee/drink.
The parent's point is that you don't normally tip on merchandise you buy. If you buy a beer for $10 and a tshirt for $30 from a bartender, a typical tip would be $2 not $8.
That said, it's sort of an arbitrary custom. It's not very much work to fill a glass of beer, find a t-shirt in some cabinet, or hand someone a cup of coffee.
That said, it's sort of an arbitrary custom. It's not very much work to fill a glass of beer, find a t-shirt in some cabinet, or hand someone a cup of coffee.
Not like it makes much of a difference, but in the cases where I've seen it, the merchandise is just on display on the floor. So there is not even an aspect of retrieving it from the cabinet, it is just being rung up.
No, you would tip on the food service amount only. Similary you would not tip at a convenience store or grocery store. At least, this is my US centric viewpoint - other locations might have different customs
I've started using cash where possible when I see these terminals. It's sometimes the easiest way to avoid the prompt altogether.
When I was last in the US I noticed that restaurants generally seemed to charge similar amounts to my expensive city (Sydney) but that was before the tip. So is it a lot more profitable to run a restaurant in the US because you essentially offload the labour cost from the meal to the tip but can keep the meal a similar price?
Also if its something that is generally always expected to be 20% then why not charge extra and pay your staff normally rather than having this extra layer to potentially mislead diners?
Also if its something that is generally always expected to be 20% then why not charge extra and pay your staff normally rather than having this extra layer to potentially mislead diners?
We (Melbourne) noticed the opposite: the US seems really cheap, until you actually get the bill and add on sales tax and tip; then, turns out, it’s about the same as here.
Tipping should be banned completely. It's discriminatory, feeds into the black economy and is f annoying.
Also, its linked to higher rates of corruption:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...
Also, its linked to higher rates of corruption:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...
Is anyone else occasionally afraid to eat at restaurants if a) the tip is established before the food is made and b) you didn't tip well or at all?
I have a friend who tells me horror stories of foul behaviour performed with the food by the chef in these situations.
I have a friend who tells me horror stories of foul behaviour performed with the food by the chef in these situations.
Guess what, you still don't have to tip if you don't want to. Your "guilt" is your problem, not a problem with the iPad. Anything that increases the takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine. It is entirely opt in.
An article featuring complaints about some of the lowest paid people in SF getting paid a little more because of a new technology lacks some self awareness.
An article featuring complaints about some of the lowest paid people in SF getting paid a little more because of a new technology lacks some self awareness.
Look, if you want to pay them more, pay them more. I'm all for it. I just don't want each retail transaction to be turned into a labor negotiation!
Tipping at restaurants is bad enough: why do I have to decide how much the waiter should make? If you make me think about it, 20% gross honestly seems way too much: the back of the house contributes a much larger portion of the value of the meal, so it feels like I'm stiffing _them_! But tipping waiters is ingrained enough that I just always give that 20%.
Any other transaction where apps try to add tipping, though? That's going to be $0 every single time, guilt free. If anything, I feel like I'm doing my part to keep companies from ruining another social interaction.
Tipping at restaurants is bad enough: why do I have to decide how much the waiter should make? If you make me think about it, 20% gross honestly seems way too much: the back of the house contributes a much larger portion of the value of the meal, so it feels like I'm stiffing _them_! But tipping waiters is ingrained enough that I just always give that 20%.
Any other transaction where apps try to add tipping, though? That's going to be $0 every single time, guilt free. If anything, I feel like I'm doing my part to keep companies from ruining another social interaction.
Sure. Big picture, I agree entirely. I automatically tip 20% too as it's just the cost of the transaction and even if the waiter is bad it could well be because of their manager understaffing the restaurant or a number of reasons beyond their control.
Do away with the tipping and pay people properly for thier labor. En lieu of that happening (and I don't see it happening soon) I'll still tip at these kiosks. I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about them but I get your point.
Do away with the tipping and pay people properly for thier labor. En lieu of that happening (and I don't see it happening soon) I'll still tip at these kiosks. I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about them but I get your point.
> the back of the house contributes a much larger portion of the value of the meal, so it feels like I'm stiffing _them_!
There's a weird economy to tips - in many (most?) US restaurants, the kitchen and non-wait staff (hosts, bussers, barbacks) are tipped out at the end of each night by those who receive the tips.
A busy night at a healthy place where everyone is hustling can send everyone home happy.
There's a weird economy to tips - in many (most?) US restaurants, the kitchen and non-wait staff (hosts, bussers, barbacks) are tipped out at the end of each night by those who receive the tips.
A busy night at a healthy place where everyone is hustling can send everyone home happy.
Another way to look at it is that companies are making it easier to underpay their workers by offloading the responsibility for seeing that they're fairly compensated to their customers.
Repeated studies have shown that tipping is inherently discriminatory, with people of color faring worse than, say, conventionally "pretty" blonde women.
In this case, the workers don't even get the one benefit of tipping that wait staff do, namely, cash that can go largely untaxed.
What's happening here is that companies are setting a new normal that lets them not only avoid the cost of employees by calling their workers "independent contractors," they're even avoiding the cost of paying them a fair wage at all.
This isn't about guilt, it's about service workers being hurt by basic concepts like fair and equitable pay, benefits and stability being replaced by a gig economy where their take-home pay is subject to the whims of patrons' moods.
Repeated studies have shown that tipping is inherently discriminatory, with people of color faring worse than, say, conventionally "pretty" blonde women.
In this case, the workers don't even get the one benefit of tipping that wait staff do, namely, cash that can go largely untaxed.
What's happening here is that companies are setting a new normal that lets them not only avoid the cost of employees by calling their workers "independent contractors," they're even avoiding the cost of paying them a fair wage at all.
This isn't about guilt, it's about service workers being hurt by basic concepts like fair and equitable pay, benefits and stability being replaced by a gig economy where their take-home pay is subject to the whims of patrons' moods.
I agree entirely. Ideally all this tipping nonsense would go away and people would have a decent wage without it.
My main objection was more to do with the sentiment of well paid tech workers I have met who complain about this technology because they feel pressured to tip a low paid workers more. A position I have little sympathy for.
My main objection was more to do with the sentiment of well paid tech workers I have met who complain about this technology because they feel pressured to tip a low paid workers more. A position I have little sympathy for.
> Anything that increases the takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine.
Anything?
Anything?
Exactly, tip is voluntary. I used to have those guilt issue but not anymore.
smittywerben(1)
How do you know who gets the tip? Panera used to refuse tips. Now I go in and I'm presented with tip amounts at the point of sale. Who get's that tip? The cashier? The person in back making my food? The person who comes by and busses my table? Or none of the above? Is Panera just pocketing what I'm willing to throw in extra? Maybe it is market research, they figure if I'm willing to tip 20% instead of 15%, then the should charge more for the sandwich?
[deleted]
So many comments here are talking about "defaulting" to tips or to 20% -- but I've never seen that on a Square or Square-type device.
It always requires a signature and you have to explicitly press "18%", "20%", "25%" (or similar) or "No tip" button.
I would be shocked if I ever saw a tip amount pre-selected for me (unless on a bill for a large party at restaurant, which has been standard for a long time now).
It always requires a signature and you have to explicitly press "18%", "20%", "25%" (or similar) or "No tip" button.
I would be shocked if I ever saw a tip amount pre-selected for me (unless on a bill for a large party at restaurant, which has been standard for a long time now).
But those four are the defaults. And for someone just taking your order, the range from 18-25% doesn't match expectations. In those situations, $0.50, $1, or 10% all seem closer to what I'd tip. The point of the article is many people are now choosing 18%, since it's easier, and there's subtle pressure for them to do so.
On Square devices, I have observed that if the amount is less than a certain threshold, the tip amounts will be $1, $2, and $3. Past that threshold and it defaults to 15%, 20%, 25%. I live in a downtown area and regularly interact with these systems (2+ times per day on avg).
"Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains that a minimum wage of $2.13 means that their full wage will go toward taxes and forces tipped workers to live off their tips." [1]
[1] https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249