Do we really need eight hours of uninterrupted sleep a night?(weforum.org)
weforum.org
Do we really need eight hours of uninterrupted sleep a night?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/monday-s-medical-myth-you-need-eight-hours-of-continuous-sleep-each-night
72 comments
I read it, I liked it, I felt like it was not written very objectively.
There did not seem to be nearly enough self-doubt or testing alternate situations.
And it shouldn't be terrifying. You no longer have to worry about animals trying to eat you, finding enough food to eat yourself, dying of infection, or physically defending yourself on a day to day basis.
If the worst thing that's wrong with you is sub-optimal sleep, you've got life pretty good.
We're getting down to solving more and more subtle problems. Sleep, the biological contents of your digestive system, and environmental exposures look to be the big health problems on the table to solve in the next few decades.
There did not seem to be nearly enough self-doubt or testing alternate situations.
And it shouldn't be terrifying. You no longer have to worry about animals trying to eat you, finding enough food to eat yourself, dying of infection, or physically defending yourself on a day to day basis.
If the worst thing that's wrong with you is sub-optimal sleep, you've got life pretty good.
We're getting down to solving more and more subtle problems. Sleep, the biological contents of your digestive system, and environmental exposures look to be the big health problems on the table to solve in the next few decades.
Sub-optimal sleep can absolutely ruin you, in the long run. E.g. it's been suggested that a significant portion (a third, IIRC, have to find that article) of chronic fatigue incidents are due to non-restorative sleep. Definitely a problem worth solving if you have it.
If you lie in bed awake once per week or so, you surely don't need to fret about it. It just must not become part of your lifestyle - if it does, get a checkup.
If you lie in bed awake once per week or so, you surely don't need to fret about it. It just must not become part of your lifestyle - if it does, get a checkup.
Calm down. We all die in the long run... Want better sleep? Stop worrying and work with your hands a bit.
Unfortunately that doesn't always work. Sometimes due to pure amounts of work I have done over the day I just can't sleep when I get to bed. (Chef, so definitely working with my hands haha)
Heart attacks increase by 25% When we lose that 1 hour of sleep by switching to Daylight Savings time.
Walker does bring quite some evidence to bear, though. I think the triad of well-being (good exercise, good nutrition, good sleep) is well established, and we're well advised to make sure we get enough sleep.
I work in Academia. I sleep after lunch every day. I have lunch in 30 minutes and then I sleep 20 minutes. I have an sleeping mat and a pillow in my office and I sleep on the floor. It really boosts my afternoon productivity, specially now that I have a baby and wake up several times during the night. During the weekends I sleep a little longer. I've been doing this for many years and I struggle a little bit when in meetings and conferences, where I can't sleep. But I'm learning to nap anywhere. ;-)
I wonder why it is, that some people can take a nap and feel refreshed. If I do it, I wake up WAY more tired than before going to sleep and will be groggy for a while.
I am guessing it must have something to do with how fast you can fall asleep and enter deep sleep.
I am guessing it must have something to do with how fast you can fall asleep and enter deep sleep.
A couple things to know:
The brain cycles through the various stages of sleep, on average 90 minutes long (it varies from person to person, could be closer to 75 or 105 minutes).
If you wake up in the middle of the cycle, when you're in DEEP sleep, you'll feel very tired and be tired for a long time after.
I find with a long nap past 30 minutes, it's just more common for people to end up waking up in the middle of their sleep cycle. NASA did a sleep study that found out that 24-25 minutes of actual sleep was the sweet spot for taking a nap.
So basically you could set an alarm for your estimated time to fall asleep + 25 minutes.
Or you could do a "coffee nap", you drink a cup of coffee and then immediately go to sleep. It takes about 30 minutes for the caffeine to hit your bloodstream. That way you'll wake up naturally.
The brain cycles through the various stages of sleep, on average 90 minutes long (it varies from person to person, could be closer to 75 or 105 minutes).
If you wake up in the middle of the cycle, when you're in DEEP sleep, you'll feel very tired and be tired for a long time after.
I find with a long nap past 30 minutes, it's just more common for people to end up waking up in the middle of their sleep cycle. NASA did a sleep study that found out that 24-25 minutes of actual sleep was the sweet spot for taking a nap.
So basically you could set an alarm for your estimated time to fall asleep + 25 minutes.
Or you could do a "coffee nap", you drink a cup of coffee and then immediately go to sleep. It takes about 30 minutes for the caffeine to hit your bloodstream. That way you'll wake up naturally.
I can wake up refreshed or more tired depending on how long I napped for. If I decide to take a 45min nap, I usually can't get myself to wake up before 90mins, and if I have to, I'm super tired like you said. A refreshing short nap that works, is 20 min max, I usually set the timer at 18mins.
The nap should be short, e.g. 30 min max.
is that after falling asleep or including that time?
Im asking because I cant fall asleep in 30minutes
Im asking because I cant fall asleep in 30minutes
Generally 25 minutes of actual sleep.
If it takes you longer than 15 minutes to fall asleep, you might need to look at cutting caffeine or other stimulants out of your diet completely. Exercise will also help.
Usually helps if you're feeling a strong sleep inertia signal (i.e. desire to sleep) compared to just feeling fatigued.
If it takes you longer than 15 minutes to fall asleep, you might need to look at cutting caffeine or other stimulants out of your diet completely. Exercise will also help.
Usually helps if you're feeling a strong sleep inertia signal (i.e. desire to sleep) compared to just feeling fatigued.
I don't need caffeine or other stimulants for it to take me way more than 15 minutes...
> look at cutting [] other stimulants
That wont work unfortunately, I am prescribed some. However I had issues falling asleep before the prescription as well
That wont work unfortunately, I am prescribed some. However I had issues falling asleep before the prescription as well
This is so cool, love the pillow, mat + floor idea to nap anywhere. It might be perceived as a little weird by some colleagues at first, but once they get the utility, I guess they'll get used to it. I nap on my chair (it reclines upto 75-80 degrees) for about 18-22 minutes every day after lunch and it refreshes me like nothing else!
I close the door. Fortunately I have my own office. They don't need to know. I live in a country where this is accepted behaviour, even though it is not common anymore in this context.
Has to be France
in China you are weirdo if you don't sleep through lunch and don't have pillow in office, people nap on desks even in open space, in some companies they even automatically switch if lights and put some resting music and at the end of nap they slowly wake up people with lightning and music
though foreigners working in China don't practice it usually, you have to live there for some time to get used to it and I would say most foreigners still other e socializing during lunch break
though foreigners working in China don't practice it usually, you have to live there for some time to get used to it and I would say most foreigners still other e socializing during lunch break
Nobody sleeps at the office in France, and his colleagues would find it very weird (weird but appealing, probably). Few people nap after lunch even at home, even in the south it's not a common practice anymore. It's a also quite uncommon these days to have your own office.
Seems to me like it's more likely to be Spain.
Seems to me like it's more likely to be Spain.
It is Spain. ;-)
By the way, I used to live in France. There I didn't nap often, but sometimes I needed to. What I did is to park my car in a quiet place and sleep there after lunch.
By the way, I used to live in France. There I didn't nap often, but sometimes I needed to. What I did is to park my car in a quiet place and sleep there after lunch.
I worked for a French Bank once. They slept openly in an atrium in the office. Eventually a sign went up forbidding it.
Yes, 20 minutes is the sweet spot.
How come these 10-20min naps are so effective when you consider that people say sleep cycles are ~90min
Same here. I need to sleep after lunch and after that I feel like I am 100% operative. Otherwise the attention diminishes over the day.
Do you drink caffeine at all?
It is important that people realize sleep cycles do exist, but this seems a bit strawman-ish. If someone says "you need about 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep" I would rather take that as meaning things like "don't get up after just 5 hours" and "don't get up and check ebay auctions in the middle of the night even if it just takes 10 minutes", not "don't panic if you naturally wake up at 4am".
-----
Btw, on
> Historical records also suggest that a segmented or bi-phasic sleep pattern was the norm before the industrial revolution.
there's an interesting comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18051041
-----
Btw, on
> Historical records also suggest that a segmented or bi-phasic sleep pattern was the norm before the industrial revolution.
there's an interesting comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18051041
>If someone says "you need about 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep" I would rather take that as meaning things like "don't get up after just 5 hours" and "don't get up and check ebay auctions in the middle of the night even if it just takes 10 minutes", not "don't panic if you naturally wake up at 4am".
If you're tired when you "naturally wake up", then do panic.
If you're tired when you "naturally wake up", then do panic.
Good point. The article is a bit disingenuous in calling it the "eight-hour solid sleep myth".
Matthew Walker in his book on sleep (that's referenced also in the comment you link to) points out, for example, that a lot of learning tends to happen in the latest stages of sleep. So, 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep might well be better than 6 hours + 2 hours siesta.
Matthew Walker in his book on sleep (that's referenced also in the comment you link to) points out, for example, that a lot of learning tends to happen in the latest stages of sleep. So, 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep might well be better than 6 hours + 2 hours siesta.
Having become a dad for the first time 14 months ago had quite the impact on the amount of uninterrupted sleep I have been getting since. I consider 4 hours in one stretch a good night. Averages are closer to 3 hours. My son simply is not a good sleeper.
Even though my son brings a lot of fun to mine and my partner's life, I have not felt well-rested since his birth, and feel impacted both mentally and fysically due to that.
Even though my son brings a lot of fun to mine and my partner's life, I have not felt well-rested since his birth, and feel impacted both mentally and fysically due to that.
I'm in the same boat. 3 years on and it's still extremely rare for my son not to wake up multiple times through the night and have to spend at least 20 mins (up to an hour or sometimes even up to 2 hours) getting him back to sleep. We've just had our second child and our daughter at 2.5 months old is also not a great sleeper during the night, but she will sleep through anything during the day. Combine that with both the kids staggering their sleep/wake schedules (as if they're colluding!) and I'm lucky to get a 3 hour stretch of sleep. Since I've been back at work after paternity leave I've regularly caught myself falling asleep at my desk at work and need to go and take a nap in my car at lunch time just so I can function.
Reading this while son has just woken up mid sleep cycle and decided to wake the house... 10 month old :)
Fear not! :-)
I found that my lifestyle changed every six months or so when I had young children. So, baby waking four times a night? Just hang in there for six months, it will probably change. Good luck and enjoy!
Infants aren't born with their circadian rhythms already calibrated, it seems to take time during which the parents are in for some sleepless nights. Not sure how long the actual accustomizing period should last though.
I've tried multiple different sleep approaches in order to maximize "awake" time, but defaulted back to exactly 8h/day - my body simply takes 8 uninterrupted hours and wakes me up precisely without any alarm clock. While experimenting, I saw energy/cognitive decline (tested) after a while, correcting when going back to 8h, so multi-phase sleep is definitely not for me.
Same here. I got some energy from a mid-day/afternoon sleep, but after it also takes an hour to wake up completely. Going below the 8 hour sleep in a row and loosing focus. Even the weekends get messed up with less sleep.
At night i tend to get around 6 hours or so.
I work from home and tend to find a 90 minute nap, as my (long) lunch break really works well for me. I eat my lunch whilst i work. This wouldn't work onsite, I'm sure, but it really works well for me.
Gives me that little pick me up in the afternoon that i used to power through with LOTS of coffee. Down to one coffee a day now
Gives me that little pick me up in the afternoon that i used to power through with LOTS of coffee. Down to one coffee a day now
One coffee a day max is a good trick. Like all addictive substances there is a seriously diminishing return and eventual swing patterns as tolerance builds. One a day gives you the full effect and has a chance to fully leave your system so you don't require coffee to function. Coffee withdrawal migraine style headaches are a real thing.
Took some major effort to get down to one, i suffered the horrid headaches as you mentioned. It took a while to figure out what was causing it, it was me not having any coffee.
Now my coffee machine glares at me each time in the kitchen, but just one in the morning is all i do now :) I buy some lovely beans and just make sure that ONE COFFEE IS GREAT!
Now my coffee machine glares at me each time in the kitchen, but just one in the morning is all i do now :) I buy some lovely beans and just make sure that ONE COFFEE IS GREAT!
This linked article by the same author is a bit better: https://theconversation.com/broken-sleep-its-a-rollercoaster....
I'm totally fine with splitting sleep in two, but it's incompatible with most jobs and even social stuff.
It's hard to find a fixed 2,5h slot that can be blocked every day. I could only do it during my high-school times.
It's hard to find a fixed 2,5h slot that can be blocked every day. I could only do it during my high-school times.
I personally know a case of trying the "uberman" sleep schedule (aka "da vinci" sleep schedule, or ~30min sleep every four hours, permanently), having tried hard but could never completely convert to the schedule, where doing so is one of two strong possible causes of the individual now suffering very debilitating Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and can no longer work regularly despite years of medical tests and efforts.
That sounds like a terrible idea
I sleep from 1am - 4am and then take 2 x 30 minute naps at 11am and 6pm. I've done this for a very long time. As a child and teenager I was often forced to try and sleep so I just lay awake. Once it was realized that I just couldn't sleep I was allowed to do quiet tasks like read or after I learned to code, code :-)
[deleted]
My digestion won't support 8 hours of uninterrupted anything. I'm up 2-3 times every night, as though I had a young child, but I'm single. Some nights, I'll be up for an hour or more, then return to bed for "second sleep".
I understand how difficult that can be.
I suffer from nocturia (diagnosed as non pathological after many rounds of tests all turning up negative). In a typical night I get five hours max of contiguous sleep and have started sleeping (by that I mean the in bed duration) nine to ten hours as an attempt to compensate for not being able to stay asleep.
I've always been curious about the difference between time spent in bed and actual time in deep sleep and their equivalence (or exchange factor).
Have you also resulted in increasing how long you are in bed to compensate?
I suffer from nocturia (diagnosed as non pathological after many rounds of tests all turning up negative). In a typical night I get five hours max of contiguous sleep and have started sleeping (by that I mean the in bed duration) nine to ten hours as an attempt to compensate for not being able to stay asleep.
I've always been curious about the difference between time spent in bed and actual time in deep sleep and their equivalence (or exchange factor).
Have you also resulted in increasing how long you are in bed to compensate?
I've used Sleep for Android to track my sleeping patterns since about 2013. I consistently get 3-4 hours of deep sleep per night in 6 hours of actual sleep.
Sometimes it's simpler to watch an hour of YouTube (or post on HN, upvotes are easier at night), than to get up and lay back down several times.
The app pauses sleep tracking when it can tell you're awake. This makes it annoying to see I've been sleeping from 9pm until 7am, and only got 6.5 hours of sleep.
Sometimes it's simpler to watch an hour of YouTube (or post on HN, upvotes are easier at night), than to get up and lay back down several times.
The app pauses sleep tracking when it can tell you're awake. This makes it annoying to see I've been sleeping from 9pm until 7am, and only got 6.5 hours of sleep.
Check your eating habits (e.g. lots of difficult to process food, late), and consult a doctor.
I'm suspecting it's due to decades of working overnight in tech call centers, and being oncall for over a year, with servers that would regularly fail overnight.
Did you try to see a doctor?
Why would I see a doctor for a natural process? Besides, it's unhealthy to sit for 8 hours, so it's probably not healthy to lay for 8 hours.
Is there a possibility for failure in seeking medical care?
Is there a possibility for failure in seeking medical care?
>Why would I see a doctor for a natural process?
Waking up 2-3 times every night due to digestion issues doesn't sound healthy or natural.
>it's unhealthy to sit for 8 hours, so it's probably not healthy to lay for 8 hours.
It's less unhealthy than not getting that sleep.
Waking up 2-3 times every night due to digestion issues doesn't sound healthy or natural.
>it's unhealthy to sit for 8 hours, so it's probably not healthy to lay for 8 hours.
It's less unhealthy than not getting that sleep.
The sleep doesn't have to be uninterrupted, just in multiples of the 45-minute sleep cycle. I get more than 6 hours almost every night.
[deleted]
I've experimented with two 3-4 hour sleep periods and it is great, two fresh starts per day... but only works if you don't have anything resembling a normal schedule.
On the subject of Why We Sleep: I'm not sure how well it corresponds to the book, but Matthew Walker also has a Google Talks talk on the same subject that I recommend watching if you're not a book person:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ
From a human performance and health point of view, yes, you need between 7-9 hrs of sleep a night.
It doesn't need to be continuous or perfect, but good sleep is going to have a huge impact on your quality of life.
In the short term, you can deal with the less, but your cognitive function, physical performance and metabolism are going to be impaired.
It doesn't need to be continuous or perfect, but good sleep is going to have a huge impact on your quality of life.
In the short term, you can deal with the less, but your cognitive function, physical performance and metabolism are going to be impaired.
The amount of sleep also depends on age, obviously.
On age and your activities during the day. Insomnia and lack of sleep are really bad.
Meh. I don't really buy into this biphasic hype. If I go to sleep in the afternoon, my body still wants several hours sleep and I'll wake up groggy, disoriented and more tired than before.
I can live on 6, and feel bad. 8 is good. 9 is better. 10 is common for me at weekends when I have no particular plans.
I can live on 6, and feel bad. 8 is good. 9 is better. 10 is common for me at weekends when I have no particular plans.
Absolutely the same here.
And sometimes i wake up pretty early, feeling totally awake. I find that in that case, I have to get up. If i force myself to sleep 2 more hours, the day is basically ruined.
Of course, we don't. We need 9 !!!
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/295665/why-we-sleep/97801419...