Interpol chief Meng Hongwei vanishes on trip to China(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Interpol chief Meng Hongwei vanishes on trip to China
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45761466
110 comments
These high-profile disappearances have become normal in China[1]:
> Chinese mega star Fan Bingbing has been fined around 883 million yuan ($129m; £98.9m) for tax evasion and other offences, authorities said Wednesday. The star, who disappeared in July, posted a long apology on social media.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45728459
> Chinese mega star Fan Bingbing has been fined around 883 million yuan ($129m; £98.9m) for tax evasion and other offences, authorities said Wednesday. The star, who disappeared in July, posted a long apology on social media.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45728459
Held in "secret detention" and posting a full apology including praise for the government. It sounds like the Chinese government is in full tyranny mode.
As opposed to when it wasn't in full tyranny mode... when exactly?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequence...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China#T...
etc, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward#Consequence...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China#T...
etc, etc...
He didn't say anything about it being new, I don't know why you would try to take the opposite side of an argument that didn't exist.
I mean you could technically go all the way back to the Qin emperor and the Great Wall...
Sure, but for this argument I think the most recent Chinese Civil war to present (1927- ) will suffice. I don't give the KMT a free pass either just because they were buddy-buddy with the "West". Different sides of the same autocratic coin if you ask me.
edit: And before this devolves any further, no I don't give the "West" a pass for its tyrannical tendencies either...
edit: And before this devolves any further, no I don't give the "West" a pass for its tyrannical tendencies either...
emodendroket(1)
See "Life and Death in Shanghai" by Cheng Nien, this isn't exactly "new" behavior for the Chinese government.
The more interesting question to me is, how does a country with a human rights record like China get to provide the head of Interpol?
edit: President is elected by the General Assembly [1]
[1] https://www.interpol.int/About-INTERPOL/Structure-and-govern...
edit: President is elected by the General Assembly [1]
[1] https://www.interpol.int/About-INTERPOL/Structure-and-govern...
One could ask the same question about things like United Nations Human Rights Council. The answer is that money, and representation of all governments is what counts. It leads to rather absurd outcomes.
Friends close, enemies closer. The UN has a long history of trying to promote human rights through engagement because it is generally more successful than the alternatives. Trying to overlay interpersonal morality onto geopolitics leads to some pretty dark places.
True. I mean in reality though, there would probably be very few countries on the UN HRC if the position required being holier than though.
Not to be a dick but it’s “thou”
An international body that shuts out China can't really claim legitimately to represent "international" consensus, can it? Globally, one in five people is Chinese.
[deleted]
I predict that the Chinese style of governance will eventually succeed and will be improved upon by others. They seem to be able to get away with everything. Chinese style data oriented micromanagement of populations is likely to be the norm for the future. You cannot escape algorithms judging you and placing you in a category. The "category" that will define your experience of the world from then on. Western tech companies are complicit in all of this.
As people in the field, we need to resist this at every turn but the money is just too great of a lure for now.
As people in the field, we need to resist this at every turn but the money is just too great of a lure for now.
People just have to be told what direction we can head in.
I like the way Yanis Varoufakis frames the matter - do you want a Matrix style future where the machines control you or a Star Trek kind of future where the machines take care of all the mundane BS and we get to go places we haven't gone before.
I don't think there is a big debate about what people will choose. We just have to get the mindlessly ambitious minority of the population with god emperor delusions to behave themselves.
I like the way Yanis Varoufakis frames the matter - do you want a Matrix style future where the machines control you or a Star Trek kind of future where the machines take care of all the mundane BS and we get to go places we haven't gone before.
I don't think there is a big debate about what people will choose. We just have to get the mindlessly ambitious minority of the population with god emperor delusions to behave themselves.
We need a way to get there from here. We will never reach Star Trek style society if we just continue as we are. I think we need to transition to socialist democracy. But how to start?
November elections are going to be very interesting. I think Bernie and the next generation of Bernie's who manage to also connect with some part of the rural votebase can take us in the right direction. Fingers crossed.
Not much information in the article. Interpol has issued a Red Corner notice, but ultimately it's the French and Chinese governments that have to find what happened.
Now let me get this straight. He was traveling from France to China, somewhere in the middle he disappeared.
What do the flight manifests say?
How about the security cameras at Airports, especially in China, where we have often heard what they allegedly doing with real time facial recognition and stuff.
For someone this high profile, there must have been security, staff etc. What do they have to say?
It's been two weeks since he disappeared. No alarm bells till now, at least the media.
I find this article to be very slim on details. There are some very simple questions not covered in the article. I guess they were in a hurry to publish this.
Now let me get this straight. He was traveling from France to China, somewhere in the middle he disappeared.
What do the flight manifests say?
How about the security cameras at Airports, especially in China, where we have often heard what they allegedly doing with real time facial recognition and stuff.
For someone this high profile, there must have been security, staff etc. What do they have to say?
It's been two weeks since he disappeared. No alarm bells till now, at least the media.
I find this article to be very slim on details. There are some very simple questions not covered in the article. I guess they were in a hurry to publish this.
He didn't disappear in the middle. It was confirmed by the French that he arrived safely in China -
"The French official said Meng did arrive in China. There was no further word on Meng’s schedule in China or what prompted his wife to wait until now to report his absence."
https://apnews.com/af741e061cfe40f9b80a252a2bfc0a46
"The French official said Meng did arrive in China. There was no further word on Meng’s schedule in China or what prompted his wife to wait until now to report his absence."
https://apnews.com/af741e061cfe40f9b80a252a2bfc0a46
> Interpol has issued a Red Corner notice
The article says they can issue one for a certain purpose, and it's not clear to me that this situation fits that purpose; it doesn't say that they have issued one.
Interpol can issue a red notice - an international alert - for a wanted person.
But it does not have the power to send officers into countries to arrest individuals, nor issue arrest warrants.
The article says they can issue one for a certain purpose, and it's not clear to me that this situation fits that purpose; it doesn't say that they have issued one.
Interpol can issue a red notice - an international alert - for a wanted person.
But it does not have the power to send officers into countries to arrest individuals, nor issue arrest warrants.
Sorry to be that guy but.. sigh..
this is no hacker news,
it's just news.
Please don't turn this beloved site into a news aggregator.
From the guidelines : "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics [...]"
Please don't turn this beloved site into a news aggregator.
From the guidelines : "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics [...]"
You might be right, but a sci-fi novelette published X years ago with this storyline could very well be on HN's first page, and bring a great discussion, any day.
Just because it's real doesn't mean is less interesting, for some readers.
Just because it's real doesn't mean is less interesting, for some readers.
I agree. Discussions here are often very good.
But how will you - or moderators - guess that a story will generate such quality ?
Problem is, the disappearing of an Interpol chief IS striking news. So it gets upvotes and stays on the front.
Now you, I, and many others have to filter more submissions to get to a real "HACKER" piece of news.
Now you, I, and many others have to filter more submissions to get to a real "HACKER" piece of news.
Well, hackers are good at filtering, plus the fold thread button works wonders too, it can make some discussions much better for you.
Why the down-votes ?
I kindly meant that it's good to have a somewhat specialized site towards intellectual curiosity.
It takes more time to visually filter submissions if they are interspersed with world news in general.
I kindly meant that it's good to have a somewhat specialized site towards intellectual curiosity.
It takes more time to visually filter submissions if they are interspersed with world news in general.
One of my professors at GaTech was detained while leading a study abroad course in China. After he was released, he said it probably was because they didn't like a book he wrote.
I guess I don't totally understand how a public official can "allegedly" disappear. Doesn't he have job responsibilities? It's been a week.
The Chinese are known to detain people indefinitely.
Hong Kong Booksellers are a great example[0]
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
Hong Kong Booksellers are a great example[0]
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
I guess the question is whether he's gone off somewhere of his own volition or somehow ended up dead or been apprehended or... who knows what else.
Based on the history of other people disappearing in China, I would speculate that he must rather have been caught on some anti-corruption/anti-tax evasion campaign of some sort.
Or at least accused of same. Which doesn't seem to be different in Chinese courts.
Based on what deep knowledge of Chinese courts cases?
It is notorious that they convict 99.9% of people charged.
http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/16/china_conviction_rate_near...
http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/16/china_conviction_rate_near...
Japan's is about the same.
"In Japan, the criminal justice system has a conviction rate that exceeds 99%, including guilty plea cases. This has been attributed to low prosecutorial budgets impelling understaffed prosecutors to bring only the most obviously guilty defendants to trial."
"In Canada, the national conviction rate is about 97%. This does not include cases in which the charges are dropped, which comprise about one-third of criminal cases. Absent Quebec, the province with the lowest conviction rate, the figure is 99%."
"In China, the justice system has a Conviction rate of about 99.9%. This has been attributed to the use of torture and other coercive measures to extract confessions and pressure on courts and prosecutors."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
"In Canada, the national conviction rate is about 97%. This does not include cases in which the charges are dropped, which comprise about one-third of criminal cases. Absent Quebec, the province with the lowest conviction rate, the figure is 99%."
"In China, the justice system has a Conviction rate of about 99.9%. This has been attributed to the use of torture and other coercive measures to extract confessions and pressure on courts and prosecutors."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
They also have a poor system of justice. They similarly have high rates of confession.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/1...
Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged.
Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged.
>Either their justice system has incredibly low false positives (99% of people charged are provably guilty), or it's rigged.
Or their prosecution standards are much higher before the cases come to courts...
Or their prosecution standards are much higher before the cases come to courts...
That's another possibility.
Although I'd still question the fundamental ability of any bureaucracy to be correct 99%+ of the time.
Given correlations that high, one almost suspects the courts and government aren't independent.
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/china/criminal-la...
Highlights:
- 1-7 days arrest and detention without a formal arrest filed (up to 37 days in some cases)
- Up to 13.5 months detention without formal charges filed
This is contrast to the US 72-hour rule & writ of habeas corpus avenue.
Objectively, I feel it's merited to say the Chinese judicial system is inefficient, unjust, and inhumane... at best.
Although I'd still question the fundamental ability of any bureaucracy to be correct 99%+ of the time.
Given correlations that high, one almost suspects the courts and government aren't independent.
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/advisories/china/criminal-la...
Highlights:
- 1-7 days arrest and detention without a formal arrest filed (up to 37 days in some cases)
- Up to 13.5 months detention without formal charges filed
This is contrast to the US 72-hour rule & writ of habeas corpus avenue.
Objectively, I feel it's merited to say the Chinese judicial system is inefficient, unjust, and inhumane... at best.
If it's anything like Japan the cops just torture suspects into confessing
I wish people would give more examples of what they're talking about or even citations before making sweeping blanket statements about the character of the Chinese state in discussions here. Many of their accusations may even be well founded, but how would I know?
I would not want to live under CCP rule, but it seems like skepticism goes out the window and people will believe anything if the story is about China.
I would not want to live under CCP rule, but it seems like skepticism goes out the window and people will believe anything if the story is about China.
[flagged]
Things that you believe because it is "common knowledge" that the actors are evil are most in need of examination.
[flagged]
I think this is a poor yardstick that leads to people believing total falsehoods. Show me facts, not a morality play.
>Go ask any teacher in any history department in any decent school anywhere in the world (except China) and they will be happy to explain.
In the US maybe. In the rest of the world it will be a much more nuanced discussion.
In the US maybe. In the rest of the world it will be a much more nuanced discussion.
Nuanced about what? The entire world knows China engages in extrajudicial activities like kidnapping, jailing people, or forced confessions for speaking against the party. The only people who deny this is China.
>extrajudicial activities like kidnapping, jailing people, or forced confessions for speaking against the party
So, like Guantanamo, kidnapping, secret sites [1],[2], [3] and so on?
Or routine police shootings, Judge Dread style?
Or having an out-of-all proportions inhumane incarceration system, with 25% of the world's prisoners for only 4% of the world's population? (a statistic many ignore, and I like to emphasize).
Or like Hawaii and Puerto Rico, but not having been snatched in the last 150 years out of nowhere, but actually like Tibet having centuries of being part of China in the past?
So, like those bad things, but restricted to their own citizens? And with no bombings and military invasions in 3-4 different countries just in the past 20 years?
Where do the rest of the world signs up so that other countries restrict those activities to their own citizens too?
If you expect a nuanced discussion about the US, you should expect a nuanced one about China.
(Not to mention being the greatest trading partner with China, token statements aside the US have more actual business interests in common with them than even with Britain)
https://www.businessinsider.com/at-least-54-countries-helped...
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/fact-sheets/investiga...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...
So, like Guantanamo, kidnapping, secret sites [1],[2], [3] and so on?
Or routine police shootings, Judge Dread style?
Or having an out-of-all proportions inhumane incarceration system, with 25% of the world's prisoners for only 4% of the world's population? (a statistic many ignore, and I like to emphasize).
Or like Hawaii and Puerto Rico, but not having been snatched in the last 150 years out of nowhere, but actually like Tibet having centuries of being part of China in the past?
So, like those bad things, but restricted to their own citizens? And with no bombings and military invasions in 3-4 different countries just in the past 20 years?
Where do the rest of the world signs up so that other countries restrict those activities to their own citizens too?
If you expect a nuanced discussion about the US, you should expect a nuanced one about China.
(Not to mention being the greatest trading partner with China, token statements aside the US have more actual business interests in common with them than even with Britain)
https://www.businessinsider.com/at-least-54-countries-helped...
https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/fact-sheets/investiga...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...
You forgot quotes around the “anti” definitions. Tax evasion in China is often the equivalent of “counter-revolutionary activities” under Stalin: the blanket accusation to frame whoever has fallen from favour and has to be purged.
Is there anyone who the Chinese government punished for tax evasion who turned out to be not cheating on their taxes? Selective enforcement is one thing. Fabricating charges is worse.
Potato, potato. In the USSR, anything you said could be interpreted as anti-revolutionary if it criticised the boss in any way; and plenty of people were privately criticising, but it was brought up only against the ones who had to be purged.
Similarly, in China today, everyone who is anyone in the apparatus is cheating taxes in some way, but it's brought up only if they become a problem for the leadership for some other reason.
Similarly, in China today, everyone who is anyone in the apparatus is cheating taxes in some way, but it's brought up only if they become a problem for the leadership for some other reason.
Not having firsthand experience as a person who is someone in the Chinese government apparatus, it sounds like it should be possible to just pay the tax you owe. But hey, maybe that kind of thinking is why I have no political power.
Depending on what you did, you can go to jail for cheating on your taxes in the US too. Which is as it should be -- if the penalty is just that you have to pay what you owed then the expected value of fraud is positive and it's only logical to just always cheat and then only pay when you get caught.
> you can go to jail for cheating on your taxes in the US too.
Jailing after trial and due public process is one thing, "disappearing" people is another.
Jailing after trial and due public process is one thing, "disappearing" people is another.
That's true, but not the suggestion I was replying to.
And here in the US, people routinely violate rules about registering as a foreign agent and have for a long time, but suddenly it's an issue and we lock up Maria Butina for what seem like mostly political reasons. Our tax fraud cases are also, I'd suspect, getting only a fraction of the tax cheats.
And selective, exemplary enforcement is not a phenomenon unknown outside of China.
I don't know if I'd say that. For instance, the Fan Bingbing case made a splash, but there's little doubt she was actually evading her taxes. The only reason people are surprised is that "everyone" is evading taxes and has been able to get away with it.
I guess if someone that high up isn't safe then who is? And China is so big, how do we know this type of thing won't spread to more countries?
Literally makes me want to move to Mars as soon as possible.
Literally makes me want to move to Mars as soon as possible.
ohiovr(2)
"Mr Meng is a senior Communist Party official in China."
He didn't vanish, that's something he signed up for. Just the Party decided to execute call in the contract at this time.
He didn't vanish, that's something he signed up for. Just the Party decided to execute call in the contract at this time.
"The 64-year-old official, who is also a vice-minister at China’s Ministry of Public Security, was “taken away” for questioning by discipline authorities “as soon as he landed in China” last week, according to the source."
[0] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/2167213/fr...