Huawei isn't trustworthy 5G partner, German spy agency says(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Huawei isn't trustworthy 5G partner, German spy agency says
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-13/huawei-isn-t-a-trustworthy-5g-partner-german-intelligence-says
70 comments
Western governments have historically been allied with and have had intelligence sharing and cooperation arrangements with the U.S.
There is a general alignment of Western intelligence agencies as a cooperative group against the antagonism of China (and Russia, NK, etc)
It isn't just "everybody spies" - it's "we are actively engaged in an adversarial relationship together against this other group"
There is a general alignment of Western intelligence agencies as a cooperative group against the antagonism of China (and Russia, NK, etc)
It isn't just "everybody spies" - it's "we are actively engaged in an adversarial relationship together against this other group"
In addition, there is a "special" arrangement between 5 western allies called the "five eyes"[1]. Between the five partners, they cover internet backbone infra for much of the world.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
Germany is not part of the Five Eyes alliance.
Nevertheless Germany is in CFBLNet, NATO, the 14 and in the Berne club...
They never claimed Germany was. The wiki link in GP doesn't list Germany as being a part of the five eyes.
> They never claimed Germany was.
The article is about Germany.
The article is about Germany.
Germany does not live in a vacuum.
and much of the EU internet traffic, including to/from germany, goes through the UK. I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted for pointing out a relevant fact on US and western allies who share intel and basically have tapped most all of the fiber in the world via legal or illegal methods (per the snowden docs).
> and much of the EU internet traffic, including to/from germany, goes through the UK.
Indeed - and many German citizens who are interested in such topics find this concerning exactly because of Five Eyes.
My comment that Germany is not part of Five Eyes
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399560
refers to its grandparent
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19398858
which I requote here:
"Western governments have historically been allied with and have had intelligence sharing and cooperation arrangements with the U.S.
There is a general alignment of Western intelligence agencies as a cooperative group against the antagonism of China (and Russia, NK, etc)
It isn't just "everybody spies" - it's "we are actively engaged in an adversarial relationship together against this other group"".
Indeed - and many German citizens who are interested in such topics find this concerning exactly because of Five Eyes.
My comment that Germany is not part of Five Eyes
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399560
refers to its grandparent
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19398858
which I requote here:
"Western governments have historically been allied with and have had intelligence sharing and cooperation arrangements with the U.S.
There is a general alignment of Western intelligence agencies as a cooperative group against the antagonism of China (and Russia, NK, etc)
It isn't just "everybody spies" - it's "we are actively engaged in an adversarial relationship together against this other group"".
bingo. The BND and NSA work very closely together even if they aren't in FVEY. This is quite well known, but it makes a lot of sense in the face of Russian/NK/Chinese aggressions. As much as our president wants you to not believe, we are stronger together.
"trusted" is a very optimistic way of putting it. but better the devil you know (e.g. Cisco/NSA) than the devil you don't.
That's very true. But also today all telco company's are really private company's and so the government can't tell them so easy buy this because we like to spy our own people.
At least in the US, I think it's easier than you think for the government to get what they want from the telcos. AT&T and their retroactive immunity set a pretty strong example that if you play nice with the government bad things won't happen to you.
More or less USA and Germany both want democracy, albeit with their local flavor. Free trade, human rights etc. If US spies (and gets its way), Germany might get their execs jailed for corruption or might lose a bid for, say, airplane engines. If China / Russia spy and get their way...we know what would happen.
What happened after it was known that the NSA had tapped Merkels phone? Nada.
German NSA people privately said, "wow, smart sons of b*tches those NSA guys. Wish we could do that to Obama"
German spy agencies were aiding and abetting the NSA in the surveillance of the German population and looked the other way when it came to politicians and industry. That a NSA lapdog is critical of Huwai is no surprise.
> What happened after it was known that the NSA had tapped Merkels phone? Nada.
For understanding Germany, you always have to keep in mind that there is a deep ditch between the "political interests" of the government and the "political interests" of many citizens (that is also the reason why you will harly hear any German citizens speaking of "unsere Regierung" (our government), but of "die Regierung" (the government)).
The government is rather attached to the USA (that is why of course nothing happened after the NSA tapped Merkel's phone), while many citizens are deeply sceptical of it, be it for
- industrial espionage that was done on Enercon by the USA (see https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/960011/trans-atlant...)
- very different beliefs on data privacy
- the Snowden leaks
- Donald Trump
- ...
For understanding Germany, you always have to keep in mind that there is a deep ditch between the "political interests" of the government and the "political interests" of many citizens (that is also the reason why you will harly hear any German citizens speaking of "unsere Regierung" (our government), but of "die Regierung" (the government)).
The government is rather attached to the USA (that is why of course nothing happened after the NSA tapped Merkel's phone), while many citizens are deeply sceptical of it, be it for
- industrial espionage that was done on Enercon by the USA (see https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/960011/trans-atlant...)
- very different beliefs on data privacy
- the Snowden leaks
- Donald Trump
- ...
While I agree that Huawei shouldn't be trusted, I find it hypocritical that western governments don't mind their own companies working with Huawei to install western build surveillance hardware and software in Huawei managed networks.
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Huawei is an interesting case. It normally isn't a problem to operate out of a country like China, but telecommunications infrastructure is sensitive. We are essentially seeing a rare case of differences in political systems having real-world effects on the export of goods. If China had the same relationship to the West as today, but stronger legal protections, this wouldn't be an issue at all, I suspect.
also if in the future we actually make cellular standards where encryption isn't demarcated at the tower and instead setup e2e between consumer devices, some risks are mitigated
it's really a shame that with both 4g and 5g standards bodies did not already work on this.
it's really a shame that with both 4g and 5g standards bodies did not already work on this.
> instead setup e2e between consumer devices, some risks are mitigated
Only some, though. The metadata will still be there to be collected, which I understand is more valuable than you'd assume on first glance.
Only some, though. The metadata will still be there to be collected, which I understand is more valuable than you'd assume on first glance.
Metadata is more than enough: https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metad...
Why they are so obssesed with 5g?! One traveling on the Berlin S-Bahn ring receives EDGE mobile connection. Let me guess - the only trustworthy and reliable partner is T-Mobile?
It's a new frequency space that can be auctioned off, so they can try to set new rules requiring expansion of coverage and local roaming. So in theory the exact opposite of "the only trustworthy and reliable partner is T-Mobile." Of course none of the triopoly like that proposal, so it's not clear yet whether those new rules will actually be implemented or not.
If it weren't for these political considerations, expanding 3G coverage instead would be cheaper and likely good enough for most applications. Especially the self driving car stuff where 5G is always touted as necessary: if it can't work without constant network connection, it's not safe enough to be deployed on the streets.
If it weren't for these political considerations, expanding 3G coverage instead would be cheaper and likely good enough for most applications. Especially the self driving car stuff where 5G is always touted as necessary: if it can't work without constant network connection, it's not safe enough to be deployed on the streets.
> So in theory the exact opposite of "the only trustworthy and reliable partner is T-Mobile."
My last sentence was was /s, obviously.
> Especially the self driving car stuff where 5G is always touted as necessary:
Germany must the only country where the development of 5G is not motivated by providing better connectivity to the citizens, but by.... the interests of automotive industry. The oligopoly is strong.
My last sentence was was /s, obviously.
> Especially the self driving car stuff where 5G is always touted as necessary:
Germany must the only country where the development of 5G is not motivated by providing better connectivity to the citizens, but by.... the interests of automotive industry. The oligopoly is strong.
It's easy to point at Huawei and say 'they are not trustworthy'. The question is, what alternatives are out there and can they deliver?
Nokia and Ericsson are the other big 5G vendors. I don't know of any problems in their ability to deliver.
Besides both are old companies with solid reputations in two stable democracies.
Ericsson, has big parts of their 5G R&D in Germany I'm sure they have their fair share of government ties.
Tools in this context sounds a lot like:
- I'll have my favored vendor draft the RFB
- Have my favored vendor write the only RFP that matches the RFB
- pretend there is competition.
This is probably the US telling Germany what to do. They're the junior partner anyway. Giving China access to large parts of their telco infrastructure isn't something either country wants to do. I can understand why, but just saying that probably won't fly with the WTO
Tools in this context sounds a lot like:
- I'll have my favored vendor draft the RFB
- Have my favored vendor write the only RFP that matches the RFB
- pretend there is competition.
This is probably the US telling Germany what to do. They're the junior partner anyway. Giving China access to large parts of their telco infrastructure isn't something either country wants to do. I can understand why, but just saying that probably won't fly with the WTO
The reality is slightly different.
https://www.lightreading.com/mobile/5g/huawei-muscle-puts-er...
https://www.lightreading.com/mobile/5g/huawei-muscle-puts-er...
This is the direction some major Canadian telecoms have been going.
I’m not sure if they’ve all changed their plans, but at least one or two of them have already made this choice and have used them in the past. Never heard of any problems in delivering.
I’m not sure if they’ve all changed their plans, but at least one or two of them have already made this choice and have used them in the past. Never heard of any problems in delivering.
In 4G and 5G networks there are only 4 big network infrastructure companies left: Huawei, Ericsson, Nokia and ZTE. Two of them are Chinese and two are from EU. Samsung is fifth but it has only 3% of the market.
"it would be hard to work with a company that cooperates with its national secret service. "
Doesn't every telecom company cooperate with its home government? I see a lot of doubt cast towards Huawei's behavior, but how about some evidence?
Doesn't every telecom company cooperate with its home government? I see a lot of doubt cast towards Huawei's behavior, but how about some evidence?
> An outright ban on Huawei is seen as legally impossible, but German officials are looking at tools that would have the same effect.
How can 'tools' with the effect of a ban be legal, when a ban isn't?
How can 'tools' with the effect of a ban be legal, when a ban isn't?
The usual approach would be to define requirements in a way that are unsuitable for the specific vendor you want to get rid of.
This is more common the other way around, where a government wants a specific company to do a job, but is required to issue a public call for bids. In that case the requirements are just written exactly for that specific company.
This is more common the other way around, where a government wants a specific company to do a job, but is required to issue a public call for bids. In that case the requirements are just written exactly for that specific company.
Write the requirements such that the company has no chance to comply with them.
Friendly advice to German telecom companies's CEOs can be an effective 'tool'...
But must guess is that Germany will be very careful and still let Huawei have a footprint in the country because Germany is a heavy investor in China for decades, and Huawei actually moved their EU HQ from the UK to Germany. They will want to stay on good enough terms with China.
But must guess is that Germany will be very careful and still let Huawei have a footprint in the country because Germany is a heavy investor in China for decades, and Huawei actually moved their EU HQ from the UK to Germany. They will want to stay on good enough terms with China.
What about e2e encryption and then you don't have to care about the infrastructure?
This is a witch hunt that will undermine confidence in the global economic system. Everything one can accuse Huawei of can be applied against any tech company - and for some with hard evidence and most here know.
This can easily backfire with tech companies being banned and excluded from markets on frivolous grounds without due process in the same way.
It cannot just be some can undermine competition and limit access to markets with scaremongering and wild allegations. If free markets and competition are mere political constructs to benefit a few then the whole system is effectively over.
This can easily backfire with tech companies being banned and excluded from markets on frivolous grounds without due process in the same way.
It cannot just be some can undermine competition and limit access to markets with scaremongering and wild allegations. If free markets and competition are mere political constructs to benefit a few then the whole system is effectively over.
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ElBarto(1)
[deleted]
All governments spy on each other, and they do whatever is necessary for their spying needs, the US, European nations as well as the Chinese. And I bet this includes exploiting Huawei/Cisco/Nokia/Motorolla hardware. Only difference is in this case for Germany: The US is more trusted than the Chinese. Thus the US/Europe get more leeway in these hardware purchases.