I Dream of Canteens(dinnerdocument.com)
dinnerdocument.com
I Dream of Canteens
https://dinnerdocument.com/2019/04/30/i-dream-of-canteens/
92 comments
I'm not going to defend the industry or "fine dining" in general, and I think what you are asking for is fine.
However, you seem to have a real misconception about the industry ("money-grubbing", etc.). Margins in the restaurant business outside of fast-food are generally really low, and in the actual fine dining segment, even worse (3% would not be unusual there. Go ahead, try running a business successfully at that sort of rate). You are right, they are competing on "experience" but that is because it is what most people seem to respond to - and it is very expensive to deliver that experience. Besides, if not experience - what - convenience? That's where fast-food comes in.
To me personally the middle of the market, particularly the non fast-food chains are the worst trade-off, though I understand why some people love them. I'd much rather play $35 for an entree that was amazing and I have no idea how to make, than $18 for one I could have done a better job of at home for $5... but I'm a good cook and a lot of people aren't or don't have the time.
There are a lot of things not to like about the way it works (many entrees are a loss, margin made up on drinks/desert, servers ludicrously underpaid which pushes their reliance on tips, back of house just ludicrously underpaid, etc.).
I totally get why you might want to avoid the entire thing (and also why others wouldn't) and wish there was more available in the segment you prefer. It's worth remembering though, that to a first approximation nobody is getting rich doing this - most places struggle at best. There are also a ton of people in the industry that really believe (rightly or wrongly) in food and its ability to provide you with experiences you can't easily (or at all) replicate other ways.
However, you seem to have a real misconception about the industry ("money-grubbing", etc.). Margins in the restaurant business outside of fast-food are generally really low, and in the actual fine dining segment, even worse (3% would not be unusual there. Go ahead, try running a business successfully at that sort of rate). You are right, they are competing on "experience" but that is because it is what most people seem to respond to - and it is very expensive to deliver that experience. Besides, if not experience - what - convenience? That's where fast-food comes in.
To me personally the middle of the market, particularly the non fast-food chains are the worst trade-off, though I understand why some people love them. I'd much rather play $35 for an entree that was amazing and I have no idea how to make, than $18 for one I could have done a better job of at home for $5... but I'm a good cook and a lot of people aren't or don't have the time.
There are a lot of things not to like about the way it works (many entrees are a loss, margin made up on drinks/desert, servers ludicrously underpaid which pushes their reliance on tips, back of house just ludicrously underpaid, etc.).
I totally get why you might want to avoid the entire thing (and also why others wouldn't) and wish there was more available in the segment you prefer. It's worth remembering though, that to a first approximation nobody is getting rich doing this - most places struggle at best. There are also a ton of people in the industry that really believe (rightly or wrongly) in food and its ability to provide you with experiences you can't easily (or at all) replicate other ways.
I want good food when I go out. I get offending when I spend $20/person on a meal and think I could have done better at home myself for $5/person. Many of those meals are not better than what McDonalds serves for $4/person, which is a low bar (you shouldn't have trouble beating McDonald's in both taste or nutrition but few places do).
The food is often secondary. Sometimes I want to sit in nice surroundings with interesting people and know that someone else is going to think about presenting me with good food I might not have thought to try myself, and a staff exhibiting a high degree of professionalism will bring it to me. Often, that place is in a location with high rent (for the restaurant, and the staffs' landlords), so it's not cheap.
Sometimes I want pizza and beer, and that can be 100% as good, too. Usually cheaper if only because it's more efficient, though.
Sometimes I want pizza and beer, and that can be 100% as good, too. Usually cheaper if only because it's more efficient, though.
With a normal developer salary in Bay Area (assuming ~$100/h), your claim is equivalent to a statement, that you'd be able to make that meal for 4 people in 12 minutes. And I assume that's just your time to prepare it, not including ingredients, cleanup, and equipment maintenance and replacement.
You are making a number of unrealistic assumptions: I'm paid hourly, that my boss has approved me to work overtime, and that I would actually be working instead of the time used to prepare a meal.
Working hourly is a reasonable thing, though in my case I'm not. The other two are completely unrealistic. Working my job for that extra hour or two just leads to burnout.
When I'm at home preparing a meal my family is there, sometimes helping (watching your 5 year old cut something for the first time with a knife is a scary moment you don't want to miss), sometimes singing in the next room. Either way I make far more than $100/h when I make a meal for my family even though the only money exchanged is what I pay for groceries.
Working hourly is a reasonable thing, though in my case I'm not. The other two are completely unrealistic. Working my job for that extra hour or two just leads to burnout.
When I'm at home preparing a meal my family is there, sometimes helping (watching your 5 year old cut something for the first time with a knife is a scary moment you don't want to miss), sometimes singing in the next room. Either way I make far more than $100/h when I make a meal for my family even though the only money exchanged is what I pay for groceries.
It does not matter if you are paid hourly. Many people here can choose exactly how long they work for the same salary.
Your second point is, basically, that you like the work (on meal prep). But that is completely besides that point.
The way you should look at this is: would you agree to serve meals for $12 for a neighboor's family of 4? And I bet the answer is no, you would not.
Your second point is, basically, that you like the work (on meal prep). But that is completely besides that point.
The way you should look at this is: would you agree to serve meals for $12 for a neighboor's family of 4? And I bet the answer is no, you would not.
This is about me and my meals though. My family is getting ripped off when I spend a sum of money on food that isn't very good. I've spent $40/person for meals that were as good as I could make at home in an hour, even though I'd be saving money doing the work myself it was still wroth it because I didn't feel like cooking.
If my neighbors decide that the meals they can buy are good enough that is their choice. I won't enforce "my good taste" on them. I find the value is not there.
If my neighbors decide that the meals they can buy are good enough that is their choice. I won't enforce "my good taste" on them. I find the value is not there.
All I was saying, is that you can not claim, that they are trying to rip you off just because you like to cook at home.
You’re assuming prices would need to remain high.
Pine Street Market in Portland is a lot like what you envision. In typically Portland fashion it is a little on the fancy side and priced somewhere between fast food and pub fare but still reasonable in my book. Food cart culture in PDX somewhat emulates canteen style dining too.
http://www.pinestreetpdx.com/
The Parts Unknown Nashville episode also had a good look at cafeteria style dining that you may enjoy.
https://explorepartsunknown.com/nashville/when-all-you-need-...
I personally would love such an establishment in my small city.
http://www.pinestreetpdx.com/
The Parts Unknown Nashville episode also had a good look at cafeteria style dining that you may enjoy.
https://explorepartsunknown.com/nashville/when-all-you-need-...
I personally would love such an establishment in my small city.
Generically known as a “food hall.” Basically an upscale food court.
Chicago version:
https://www.revivalfoodhall.com/
Raleigh version:
http://www.morganfoodhall.com/
And a bunch more:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/50-best-food-halls-america-...
Chicago version:
https://www.revivalfoodhall.com/
Raleigh version:
http://www.morganfoodhall.com/
And a bunch more:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/50-best-food-halls-america-...
A lot of indie cafes are kind of like this. Example from my city:
https://www.cafepyrus.com/
https://www.google.com/search?q=cafe+pyrus+kitchener&tbm=isc...
Healthy, inexpensive food. Order at the counter, they bring it to you when it's ready. Bus your own table when you're done. Extremely basic decor, but they're a community spot, with fairly frequent mini-concerts, a monthly poetry slam, etc.
https://www.cafepyrus.com/
https://www.google.com/search?q=cafe+pyrus+kitchener&tbm=isc...
Healthy, inexpensive food. Order at the counter, they bring it to you when it's ready. Bus your own table when you're done. Extremely basic decor, but they're a community spot, with fairly frequent mini-concerts, a monthly poetry slam, etc.
That isn't a canteen. Like the article says, the closest thing we have in the US is the Ikea food court. You collect various foods on a tray and pay at the end. It's more customizable than restaurants where you order a main entree. Canteens have variety, apps/mains/sides/desserts, that you can pick at will, and are semi-self service.
Canteens (stolavaya) are alive and well in Russia, and were my favorite places to eat because of the variety and thrift.
Here's how one is arranged: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg
Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/...
Canteens (stolavaya) are alive and well in Russia, and were my favorite places to eat because of the variety and thrift.
Here's how one is arranged: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg
Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/...
That looks like a cafeteria style restaurant. We have lots of those. e.g. Boston Market:
https://www.prlog.org/10985847-wwwbostonmarketcom.jpg
Or the inside of most any Whole Foods or other upscale grocer.
A food court is different. There are a bunch of vendors surrounding a common eating area. Sadly because it’s America, it’s the same 10 fast food or fast food like vendors in every food court, mostly. You might see more variety in an airport.
https://www.prlog.org/10985847-wwwbostonmarketcom.jpg
Or the inside of most any Whole Foods or other upscale grocer.
A food court is different. There are a bunch of vendors surrounding a common eating area. Sadly because it’s America, it’s the same 10 fast food or fast food like vendors in every food court, mostly. You might see more variety in an airport.
Kind of like Picadilly's Restaurant?
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IYKR9N0VneA/UZ96KquXbYI/AAAAAAAAD...
https://s3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/b3jONzG2-_wI804mxVBX...
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IYKR9N0VneA/UZ96KquXbYI/AAAAAAAAD...
https://s3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/b3jONzG2-_wI804mxVBX...
You might be surprised at how close you can get to that experience at a nicer grocery store/coop (most larger Whole Foods are this way, for instance). The salads and sandwiches can be put into a plastic container or just on a plate and there’s seating (my favorite grocery store even has outlets).
This is one of the few things Baltimore does well! We have many food 'markets' that are essentially small stalls run by independent businesses with common seating areas, tray returns, limited bussing, and open seating.
https://r.housebaltimore.com/ has become extremely popular, and several markets are being renovated with a similar approach. The prices vary somewhat depending on the type of stall, but in general they are within a fast-food price-range, not a restaurant.
https://r.housebaltimore.com/ has become extremely popular, and several markets are being renovated with a similar approach. The prices vary somewhat depending on the type of stall, but in general they are within a fast-food price-range, not a restaurant.
I'm not sure where you're located, but Dig Inn (https://www.diginn.com) started in New York and looks to be spreading in Boston and while not necessarily a $5 lunch, seems to fulfill most of your criteria. It may not offer as large a selection as traditional canteens, and is very bowl-focused (who isn't in 2019?) but I thought it a pleasant enough experience.
Isn’t what you’re describing is a food court? Like the ones they havr in malls?
The whole foods hot bar is where it's at. Nice atmosphere and decent food. Although of course it can be kind of pricey depending on how much you eat.
Some colleges will allow non-students to buy individual meals, or even meal plans, at their dining halls which are usually as you describe.
Mall food courts also have a similar experience.
Mall food courts also have a similar experience.
In my experience, ~85-95% of mall food court food is terrible.
Unless you work next to the food court, and take the time to figure out what's good, your average stop at one will result in disappointment.
Unless you work next to the food court, and take the time to figure out what's good, your average stop at one will result in disappointment.
that was one thing that astonished me when I visited Bangkok - the mall food courts were truly excellent. nowhere else have I eaten so many meals so happily in a food court.
The food courts in the malls in Flushing, NY are also truly excellent - amazing, authentic Chinese food as well as some other East Asian cuisine. There are probably other ethnic enclaves around the US with good food courts.
Aside from healthy (that is going to vary) it sounds like what you're describing could be what is called "fast casual" in the US.
Come to New Zealand! The NZ bakery/cafe[teria]/"tea rooms" is what you describe; grab a tray and a couple of small plates and go down the side of the establishment to self-serve from the hot cabinets with (savoury) pies, sausage rolls, chicken drumsticks and chips (fries); many pre-made sandwiches; and various cakes and sweets. Most have a menu with a few simple made-to-order things as well, e.g. toasted sandwiches. Generally cheap, reasonable quality and a staple of all walks of life over lunch.
What counts as the "western world" ?
I know of at least one chain [1] in Europe that matches your description.
[1] https://www.flunch.fr/
I know of at least one chain [1] in Europe that matches your description.
[1] https://www.flunch.fr/
There are these mom and pop shops, they make a pasta a dish, or biscuits, or whatever. They are cheap yet tasty, and popular. Obviously the margins are thin, but the owners don't have huge ambitions, aren't trying to expand, get a new big house, etc, they just make food and by doing so make a living and provide for their family...and the people respond. These mom and pop stores become the fixtures of the community. They server the community. Those are the best places.
I really wish we had Singapore-style hawker centers in the US. I'm not sure the economics could work here, though.
I was wondering if anyone would mention these -- they're the best! We sought out the hawker centres, which have a huge variety of amazing foods. The same format was easy to find in Penang as well. You can eat delicious local food with the locals at great prices, and there is more than enough volume and competition to force low quality players out.
Where do you live? We have plenty of those types of counter-service places in Boston, FWIW
I am a "high net worth individual" with a large second house in a leafy Seattle suburb. I use this house solely as an office, where I work by myself. The room I work in most often overlooks a forested area. But I like to get out sometimes.
One of the great pleasures of my workday is eating at the local McDonalds, which is clean, run by nice people, and elegantly designed with plenty of natural light. They allow me to stay and use their free wifi for a couple hours if I wish. They have never even suggested that I leave, even after a marathon 3 hour visit. As a person who grew up not rich in a not safe place, I continue to be amazed such a thing is possible. My go-to meal is two cheeseburgers (substitute white cheddar) and unlimited fountain drinks for under USD$3.50, so I'm probably good for a few hundred bucks a year to them. Not exactly a prime customer.
For whatever reason, maybe because I get jacked up on 3 diet cokes by the end of a long visit, it's a fantastic place for me to learn challenging material. I bring a big iPad and a $20 Bluetooth keyboard/iPad stand, then study my ass off and take notes in vim. I am under huge stress lately, and having to absorb a massive amount of technical literature fast while I undertake rewriting a running, production site with a very tight deadline.
Don't think I'm not thankful for the opportunity every time it happens. It's a huge privilege IMHO.
One of the great pleasures of my workday is eating at the local McDonalds, which is clean, run by nice people, and elegantly designed with plenty of natural light. They allow me to stay and use their free wifi for a couple hours if I wish. They have never even suggested that I leave, even after a marathon 3 hour visit. As a person who grew up not rich in a not safe place, I continue to be amazed such a thing is possible. My go-to meal is two cheeseburgers (substitute white cheddar) and unlimited fountain drinks for under USD$3.50, so I'm probably good for a few hundred bucks a year to them. Not exactly a prime customer.
For whatever reason, maybe because I get jacked up on 3 diet cokes by the end of a long visit, it's a fantastic place for me to learn challenging material. I bring a big iPad and a $20 Bluetooth keyboard/iPad stand, then study my ass off and take notes in vim. I am under huge stress lately, and having to absorb a massive amount of technical literature fast while I undertake rewriting a running, production site with a very tight deadline.
Don't think I'm not thankful for the opportunity every time it happens. It's a huge privilege IMHO.
[deleted]
You're basically living my dream. How'd you make it happen?
I am truly blessed. I bought a business on eBay during the .com crash of 2000 (esnipe.com) and turned it into a moneymaker. From there I am gone into investment in domain names and real estate.
I’ve also failed a lot, like the time when I spent $1,400,000 of my own money trying to beat craigslist.
I’ve also failed a lot, like the time when I spent $1,400,000 of my own money trying to beat craigslist.
Wholesome.
I see a lot of comparisons to things that are nothing like canteens, possibly because most Americans have never been to one (Ikea food court is the closest thing). Canteens (stolovaya) are alive and well in Russia. Here's how the line-up looks:
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ml0F97OZu6k/maxresdefault.jpg
Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/...
You get charged per item, so it's higher quality than AYCE buffet. There's tons of variety, and you get to see your food before you purchase it. The closest thing I've seen in the US might be Bakeman's restaurant in Seattle, but it was sandwich-focused. The combination of hearty food with a plethora of options and minimal service is not something I've seen in the US. Some college cafeterias or museum dining areas are similar, but usually with less variety.
Here's what your tray might look like at the end: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0c/46/f7/cc/...
You get charged per item, so it's higher quality than AYCE buffet. There's tons of variety, and you get to see your food before you purchase it. The closest thing I've seen in the US might be Bakeman's restaurant in Seattle, but it was sandwich-focused. The combination of hearty food with a plethora of options and minimal service is not something I've seen in the US. Some college cafeterias or museum dining areas are similar, but usually with less variety.
Sign me up.
Cooperative living (very much in the same vein) sustained me through college.
'adulthood' is comparatively extremely isolating.
Where is one supposed to find a tribe, in a city, in this day and age?
Cooperative living (very much in the same vein) sustained me through college.
'adulthood' is comparatively extremely isolating.
Where is one supposed to find a tribe, in a city, in this day and age?
Same boat for me: co-op living in college has infected me with a longing for community. Russia (and Europe to some extent) has a movement of anti-cafes, which are communal spaces that you pay a bit per hour to inhabit. Come to work, play board games, read, or just hang out. Coffee is often provided for cheap.
We could use these in the US. I guess hackerspaces may come close in spirit, but I’ve never been.
We could use these in the US. I guess hackerspaces may come close in spirit, but I’ve never been.
I've seen a couple in Montreal but don't know about their current status
WeWork is also pushing a WeLive concept that is essentially this. Anecdotally, I'm aware of a more grassroots-style of living in San Francisco wherein groups of 12-60 people live as a community in older, larger buildings (The Red Vic, Negev, Campus Coliving). It's not for everyone but certainly fills a niche.
A bit baffled by the negative reactions you're getting, just wanted to say that I agree with this sentiment.
I have not had any difficulty finding a "tribe" as an adult in a big city.
Intramural sports, meetup groups, work, bars, gyms, etc. all work very well.
Intramural sports, meetup groups, work, bars, gyms, etc. all work very well.
You have to get off the computer and go outside.
Hobbies are a good way to meet people. Volunteer work is better.
Hobbies are a good way to meet people. Volunteer work is better.
That was a rhetorical question.
> You have to get off the computer and go outside.
That has nothing to do with it.
The kinds of institutions I want to be part of don't really exist in the US
> You have to get off the computer and go outside.
That has nothing to do with it.
The kinds of institutions I want to be part of don't really exist in the US
Curious what institutions you're referring to, could you list some examples?
What institutions are you thinking of?
Cooperatives of all kind. Housing. Work. Canteens.
Warm and welcoming places that invite all to step in from the cold and stay awhile.
Housing coops and canteens exist but are not common.
Worker coops on the other hand...
I sincerely believe that a well-organized tech worker coop would eat the world. The incentives are fundamentally misaligned for the average worker in the modern corporation. I'm well aware that I'm getting taking advantage of everyday when I show up to work, and that sets a pretty low upper bound on the amount of fucks I give about someone else's corporation.
'disrupt' that and you'll be unstoppable.
Warm and welcoming places that invite all to step in from the cold and stay awhile.
Housing coops and canteens exist but are not common.
Worker coops on the other hand...
I sincerely believe that a well-organized tech worker coop would eat the world. The incentives are fundamentally misaligned for the average worker in the modern corporation. I'm well aware that I'm getting taking advantage of everyday when I show up to work, and that sets a pretty low upper bound on the amount of fucks I give about someone else's corporation.
'disrupt' that and you'll be unstoppable.
How about a place where you can go to get food and socialize with people without being required to buy something? A bar, but for those who don't want to drink. A coffee shop for those who don't want to pay 3 dollars for burned coffee. A library where you're allowed to eat. A park where it's okay to hang out and talk to strangers even if you're an adult and don't have a kid or dog with you.
I've never been to a bar where I was required to buy something.
Maybe you haven’t been to a bar that has kicked you out for not buying something, but you have certainly been to a bar that wishes you weren’t there not buying stuff. If you think you haven’t, well...
Except that's not what we're talking about, and even if it were, who cares what they wish - I'm there to socialize with friends, not employees.
[deleted]
How about it! Sounds good to me
An enclosed city park, in other words, only magically without creeps and assholes?
Maybe try somewhere else, then -- perhaps volunteer on a kibbutz, and see if that's what you're looking for?
I think the closest analogue to this in the US is a mall food court. Many vendors instead of one, but similarly to the canteen, provides an open communal space with varied seating options. Of additional note: cheap, fast food (think McDonalds) is ubiquitous but low in nutrition - healthier canteen style is up against stronger competition than the WWII-era British Restaurant
Food courts have really suffered from the mentality of corporate mall management; contracts with large chains of even 2nd or 3rd tier fast-food operations are preferred over local options and small operations.
This make the B2B stuff easier, as many malls are owned my massive groups that run even dozens of malls - and they can make a contract with a large franchise operation to cover many/all of them (or a restaurant group that can provide different options). They also don't have to worry about risk on the rent much.
Notice how food quality etc. didn't show up in previous para?
This make the B2B stuff easier, as many malls are owned my massive groups that run even dozens of malls - and they can make a contract with a large franchise operation to cover many/all of them (or a restaurant group that can provide different options). They also don't have to worry about risk on the rent much.
Notice how food quality etc. didn't show up in previous para?
Mall food courts are pretty awful in my experience. We’re starting to get upscale food courts that don’t like to call themselves food courts. But the prices, while better than sit down dining, aren’t cheap. The food is much better though. Here’s an example in Raleigh:
http://www.morganfoodhall.com/
(“Morgan Street Food Hall is a new lifestyle dining concept; not to be confused with a food court.” Ugh I almost didn’t visit the place since the web site is so fucking pretentious.)
I first visited one of these in Chicago.
My preference is a city park surrounded by food trucks. But these aren’t reliable, only work when the weather is good, etc.
http://www.morganfoodhall.com/
(“Morgan Street Food Hall is a new lifestyle dining concept; not to be confused with a food court.” Ugh I almost didn’t visit the place since the web site is so fucking pretentious.)
I first visited one of these in Chicago.
My preference is a city park surrounded by food trucks. But these aren’t reliable, only work when the weather is good, etc.
To be fair, most Asian cities have stuff like this. It never caught on in the west due to cultural and political reasons e.g. urban planning in western nations are designed with cars as the preferred mode of transport and most housing densities are several magnitudes lower than places like Hong Kong, Tokyo and Singapore. Just two days ago HN was lamenting about this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19769292
Other than urban planning, the abundance of street food and lack of tipping culture in Asia also probably helps.
Other than urban planning, the abundance of street food and lack of tipping culture in Asia also probably helps.
I dreamed of opening up a vegetarian canteen style restaurant. A place that serves cheap, nutritious, and delicious food and where people from all classes and walks of life could sit down for a meal. I've thinking about making a vegetarian restaurant that doesn't advertise itself as such. All the food should be delicious no matter what, not delicious for being vegetarian. It should take people a minute to realize that there is no meat in any of the dishes. I wonder how that would do in the United States.
https://www.yelp.com/biz/ganesh-temple-canteen-flushing
Last year I was in Flushing, Queens NYC and visited this basement canteen. It had the desired features mentioned in the article. I'm not South-Asian, but I didn't feel at all unwelcome. It was raining that day, and I sat and drank tea for a little while to wait for the rain to shop. Cheap, decent food. Plenty of seating.
Last year I was in Flushing, Queens NYC and visited this basement canteen. It had the desired features mentioned in the article. I'm not South-Asian, but I didn't feel at all unwelcome. It was raining that day, and I sat and drank tea for a little while to wait for the rain to shop. Cheap, decent food. Plenty of seating.
Wow, dang, that looks good!
I don't know if you could solve the problem of serving food that feels welcoming to "all classes and walks of life." The level of comfort with different flavor profiles is not exactly independent of class and background. The "cosmopolitan elite" (for lack of a better term) is self-conscious about seeking out new foods and flavor profiles; it's part of the class expectations they live up to. People from other classes and backgrounds often live up to different expectations, such as rejecting unfamiliar flavors and ingredients. Forcing people to embrace the risk of encountering an unfamiliar flavor profile is forcing them to adopt the mores of the privileged classes.
I wonder how that would do in the United States.
I think the time is better than ever for that kind of restaurant. People have mostly accepted the culinary necessity and dietary acceptability of salt and oil, so the forced dichotomy between the ethnic vegetarian restaurants and the insufferably bland ones is a relic of the past.
I wonder how that would do in the United States.
I think the time is better than ever for that kind of restaurant. People have mostly accepted the culinary necessity and dietary acceptability of salt and oil, so the forced dichotomy between the ethnic vegetarian restaurants and the insufferably bland ones is a relic of the past.
As galago mentioned, the Ganesh Temple Canteen in NY is a beloved institution in the city and popular with people of all backgrounds.
I can't imagine the politics of figuring out what kind of food to serve. In the U.S., Democrats would add quinoa vegetable stew when they came into power, and the Republicans would proudly ban it and replace it with cheesy beef and mac. The Republicans would ban imported food, the Democrats would ban GMOs. The Democrats would mandate a complete vegetarian option, the Republicans would counter by mandating a minimum of 50g of protein per meal, including breakfast and lunch. Republicans would race-bait over ethnic food, and some tone-deaf centrist Democrat would propose "American" names for "foreign" food, like "chips and cheese" instead of "nachos," to make things less "confusing" for those salt-of-the-earth flyover morons, thus offending both sides, which is the closest thing to unity we ever experience.
Maybe having this to fight about would distract some of our stupidity from real policy questions. That could be a win.
> Unlike in Homer’s Odyssey, there will be no massacre if people stay longer than they should or have more free refills than is calculated to be ideal.
This is funny but also grossly unfair to Odysseus and Telemachus.
Maybe having this to fight about would distract some of our stupidity from real policy questions. That could be a win.
> Unlike in Homer’s Odyssey, there will be no massacre if people stay longer than they should or have more free refills than is calculated to be ideal.
This is funny but also grossly unfair to Odysseus and Telemachus.
There is a lot of politics involved in school cafeteria lunches- nutrition, allergies, religious restrictions, quality, cost, big food conspirists and lobbyists and whatever nutrition fad is current all have proponents who are perfectly willing to tie up school board meetings and otherwise push their agenda to the best of their ability. I'd have to think any gov't based approach would attract similar.
Maybe I missed this, but where do politics play a role in this idea? I could see if these were gov't run/funded places, but these could thrive alone via private business just as many restaurants do. Both parties could exist alongside each other.
there are no public canteens in the city (what council could now afford to hang on to such a quantity of land after cuts?)
After the war Conservatives dismissed them in parliament because they weren’t making profit. The canteens were allowed to decline, then disappear.
Where I live, and apparently where the author lives, there's no way they could survive without government support, because they don't extract as much money from the space as other styles of restaurant do. The restaurant business is very tough, even without serving affordable food to all classes and providing ample space for lingering.
After the war Conservatives dismissed them in parliament because they weren’t making profit. The canteens were allowed to decline, then disappear.
Where I live, and apparently where the author lives, there's no way they could survive without government support, because they don't extract as much money from the space as other styles of restaurant do. The restaurant business is very tough, even without serving affordable food to all classes and providing ample space for lingering.
This is strange to me, canteens are very common in Eastern Europe and I assumed they exist everywhere, I'm guessing it's due to the cooking styles, we do a lot of soups and stews which are perfect for this.
I agree.
It's mind-bendingly frustrating to me that eating out in the UK seems to be a fundamentally unhealthy affair.
I just want meat and two veg, a curry without a wad of oil, spaghetti bolognese, whatever. A standard staple meal without a ton of additives or other weirdness.
If anyone knows of places like this in London I'm all ears. The best I can think of right now is IKEA food court which isn't the healthiest and isn't next to anything else.
Basically anywhere I can think of serves bastardizations of real food. Polish milk bars, as stated below, are the only time I think I've ever eaten real food outside of a private home.
It's mind-bendingly frustrating to me that eating out in the UK seems to be a fundamentally unhealthy affair.
I just want meat and two veg, a curry without a wad of oil, spaghetti bolognese, whatever. A standard staple meal without a ton of additives or other weirdness.
If anyone knows of places like this in London I'm all ears. The best I can think of right now is IKEA food court which isn't the healthiest and isn't next to anything else.
Basically anywhere I can think of serves bastardizations of real food. Polish milk bars, as stated below, are the only time I think I've ever eaten real food outside of a private home.
In Edinburgh the central mosque had (still has) a pretty legendary canteen
I love canteens. In Ukraine they have proper canteen chains with good local food. Very cheap and delicious. Just love it. I’ll take that over a proper restaurant any day.
Is Panera Bread in the US not such an establishment? good coffee and tea, plenty of seating of various forms in various nooks, self bussing, etc. I loved to lose myself there doing remote work when I was in US
What's different between this and a buffet?
You usually serve yourself at a buffet, and it’s usually from one vendor. A canteen like this could have multiple vendors. A buffet is also usually “all you can eat” and priced to account for that.
I guess London doesn't have the equivalent of Golden Corral or Old Country Buffet, or a decent diner now that I think of it. I wonder if she moved to English equivalent of the burbs there would be something more inviting.
I eat at the IKEA canteen all the time. It's a treasure.
I hated Panda Express when I lived urban California and there were 1000s of small Chinese canteens, but now I go twice a week. If they had real China (hehe) I would eat there more often, but I just get to go.
The author is nostalgic for something that can theoretically exist, but is very debatable whether it can exist at scale.
The military has canteens. Leaving the budget per meal per soldier aside, there is inherent difficulty to providing food for hundreds of thousands of people within a short period, and to providing such food at a relatively consistent level of quality. Most organizations tasked with providing such a large quantity of food over a short period of time resort to outsourcing supply to food service companies which generally provide processed food which is either frozen or shelf-stable. Fresh produce is difficult and "healthy and delicious" is practically a pipe dream.
There is a way to deal with this - hire an educated chef who can nurture relationships with many local farmers to negotiate supply, and actively manage the kitchen to make the best of the locally-sourced supply, not waste any of it, and put out a variety of dishes that, while not consistent in their contents from day-to-day, are consistently delicious. This is what Patrick Wodni [1] does for a Berlin hospital, but he's an exception because he was willing to take a large pay cut to work there. How many Patrick Wodnis are out there, for how many canteens would we need?
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/world/europe/germany-chef...
The military has canteens. Leaving the budget per meal per soldier aside, there is inherent difficulty to providing food for hundreds of thousands of people within a short period, and to providing such food at a relatively consistent level of quality. Most organizations tasked with providing such a large quantity of food over a short period of time resort to outsourcing supply to food service companies which generally provide processed food which is either frozen or shelf-stable. Fresh produce is difficult and "healthy and delicious" is practically a pipe dream.
There is a way to deal with this - hire an educated chef who can nurture relationships with many local farmers to negotiate supply, and actively manage the kitchen to make the best of the locally-sourced supply, not waste any of it, and put out a variety of dishes that, while not consistent in their contents from day-to-day, are consistently delicious. This is what Patrick Wodni [1] does for a Berlin hospital, but he's an exception because he was willing to take a large pay cut to work there. How many Patrick Wodnis are out there, for how many canteens would we need?
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/05/world/europe/germany-chef...
Poland still has "Milk bars"(Bar mleczny) which were the staple of dining during the communist times - they served mostly food based on milk and flour(hence the name) - pancakes with cheese, pierogi(many different fillings), different soups......they were extremely cheap and also pretty good.
And....they still exist today. Krakow has one literally right in the city centre, next to the most premium of premium estates, where a restaurant literally right next door will have "western" levels of pricing, and yet they continue to serve simple, basic food for ~$1-3 per portion[0]. Granted, a lot of them closed after the fall of communism 20 years ago, but equally they still exist and still continue serving people. They are not just a tourist curio either - they are the place to go for students and workers.
[0] https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g274772-d269...
And....they still exist today. Krakow has one literally right in the city centre, next to the most premium of premium estates, where a restaurant literally right next door will have "western" levels of pricing, and yet they continue to serve simple, basic food for ~$1-3 per portion[0]. Granted, a lot of them closed after the fall of communism 20 years ago, but equally they still exist and still continue serving people. They are not just a tourist curio either - they are the place to go for students and workers.
[0] https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g274772-d269...
In Romania we call them "autoservire" or "impinge tava" which translates literally to push the tray, the food is much much better than fast food and much healthier as well. See [0] for some example menu.
I always wondered why fast food was such a big thing in the west, maybe it's because they never had this?
https://www.facebook.com/pg/CaLaMama1/photos/?ref=page_inter...
I always wondered why fast food was such a big thing in the west, maybe it's because they never had this?
https://www.facebook.com/pg/CaLaMama1/photos/?ref=page_inter...
I like the Polish "Milk Bars," however, they typically are subsidized by the govt (and as well they should be).
The best part of the milk bars? The food is generally cooked in-house from scratch, using very few and basic ingredients, and thus no two milk bars serve the same flavor. I hope they stay around.
Milk and flour, so, shelf-stable products (milk being quasi-shelf-stable since it's available year-round and can be refrigerated for a couple of weeks and still be usable). Blintzes and pierogi aren't what I would consider to be healthy food.
Milk bars are the bomb. I have eaten in the best restaurants of Paris and Krakow... but it's the milk bars I miss most from Poland. By far.
> The author is nostalgic for something that can theoretically exist, but is very debatable whether it can exist at scale.
We had thousands of them during the war - British Restaurants, operated by the local authority, serving a three-course meal to all comers for ninepence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant
We had thousands of them during the war - British Restaurants, operated by the local authority, serving a three-course meal to all comers for ninepence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant
That's not really a sustainable example either. In wartime, the British rationing board ensured that the British Restaurants were well-supplied (they wouldn't have been in a free market, or they would've been more expensive) and after the war, the ones that survived were propped up by Labor governments.
That the kitchens were run not-for-profit says absolutely nothing about whether those prices were actually sustainable for the food they were serving - if supplies are subsidized then NFP just means not taking in more than expended in subsidies. If anybody has details of how they were funded in the post-war period, I'd be happy to consider it.
That the kitchens were run not-for-profit says absolutely nothing about whether those prices were actually sustainable for the food they were serving - if supplies are subsidized then NFP just means not taking in more than expended in subsidies. If anybody has details of how they were funded in the post-war period, I'd be happy to consider it.
That's actually called out in the article too
I would love for nothing more than a basic, no-frills establishment that serves simple, healthy food, counter-service style so I don't have to deal with uppity yet somehow obsequious servers grubbing for tips, as I'm more than happy to bring my own damn food to my own damn table and am more than capable of filling a water glass when I'm thirsty. I'd much rather save money, enjoy my meal in peace and put my dishes in a bin on my way out than deal with the conspicuous consumption as a performance that so much of dining out has become these days.