People reluctant to use their Octopus cards for fear of leaving a paper trail(twitter.com)
twitter.com
People reluctant to use their Octopus cards for fear of leaving a paper trail
https://twitter.com/maryhui/status/1138675837165641733
21 comments
You can now use a contactless debit card in London in lieu of an Oyster card.
I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior. Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and anonymously?
Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and they're already deanonymized.
I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior. Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and anonymously?
Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and they're already deanonymized.
To get an Octopus card, I need HK$150 cash.
To get a contactless debit (or credit) card, I need proof of ID and proof of address.
Octopus cards were launched in 1997. Oyster cards didn't come to London until 2003.
Contactless debit cards didn't come into play with TfL until 2014, and Oyster cards never really extended beyond transport uses in that time.
In comparison, retail establishments, vending machines, parking meters, car parks, were accepting Octopus cards as early as 2004.
There's a lot to be said for that momentum / inertia, which Oyster cards never had, and the accessibility to absolutely everyone without any requirements beyond having the cash to pay for it (approx £15, with £5 deposit for the card and £10 initial credit)
(It's also worth noting I dumped my Oyster card within a couple of months of contactless cards being accepted with TfL, while I still have my Octopus card as it's vital in HK in a way that Oyster never was in London)
To get a contactless debit (or credit) card, I need proof of ID and proof of address.
Octopus cards were launched in 1997. Oyster cards didn't come to London until 2003.
Contactless debit cards didn't come into play with TfL until 2014, and Oyster cards never really extended beyond transport uses in that time.
In comparison, retail establishments, vending machines, parking meters, car parks, were accepting Octopus cards as early as 2004.
There's a lot to be said for that momentum / inertia, which Oyster cards never had, and the accessibility to absolutely everyone without any requirements beyond having the cash to pay for it (approx £15, with £5 deposit for the card and £10 initial credit)
(It's also worth noting I dumped my Oyster card within a couple of months of contactless cards being accepted with TfL, while I still have my Octopus card as it's vital in HK in a way that Oyster never was in London)
So the main difference in 2019 is HK Octopus doesn’t require ID, while UK Contactless does?
But is that a big issue given all these people are actively avoiding using the Octopus to avoid being tracked? I guess Octopus doesn’t have age limits, I think you need to be 11 or higher to get a UK contactless card for yourself these days. Don’t know if that’s a legal minimum or just a banking decision.
Edit: You can get prepaid cards too: https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-question...
But is that a big issue given all these people are actively avoiding using the Octopus to avoid being tracked? I guess Octopus doesn’t have age limits, I think you need to be 11 or higher to get a UK contactless card for yourself these days. Don’t know if that’s a legal minimum or just a banking decision.
Edit: You can get prepaid cards too: https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-question...
You can get an Octopus without an ID, but most people have their primary octopus linked to their ID for one of the following reasons: student transportation discounts, residential/school building access control, linked to credit card for automatic top-up, verification for child/elderly Octopus.
Given that a lot of the protestors were students maybe they're buying child tickets rather than paying double with an anonymous adult Octopus.
Given that a lot of the protestors were students maybe they're buying child tickets rather than paying double with an anonymous adult Octopus.
> You can get an Octopus without an ID, but most people have their primary octopus linked to their ID for one of the following reasons: ... linked to credit card for automatic top-up
When did that become a thing? I've always known Octopus to be cash only. Can non-resident foreigners also top up by CC?
When did that become a thing? I've always known Octopus to be cash only. Can non-resident foreigners also top up by CC?
Acceptance of payment mechanism is the other difference. Debit and credit cards aren't accepted as widely as cash or Octopus in HK.
Funnily enough, if you go to the more hipster parts of London, cash isn't accepted and you need a debit or credit card to pay in an increasingly large number of stores. Anecdotally, food trucks and markets often will prefer cards over cash (I ask which they prefer if I can do either) in London, while in HK I'll attempt to pay for everything by card first, and unless it's an upscale restaurant, I'll usually be rejected and get told cash/octopus only.
I also don't think you get contactless with prepaid cards. There's the whole up to 3x £30 guarantee / fraud angle that can't be covered adequately on a prepaid card. (On a regular debit card, you can do up to 3x £30 transactions without authorisation, and if any of them are fraudulent, your bank will reimburse you, regardless of whether or not your card has been (reported) stolen)
Funnily enough, if you go to the more hipster parts of London, cash isn't accepted and you need a debit or credit card to pay in an increasingly large number of stores. Anecdotally, food trucks and markets often will prefer cards over cash (I ask which they prefer if I can do either) in London, while in HK I'll attempt to pay for everything by card first, and unless it's an upscale restaurant, I'll usually be rejected and get told cash/octopus only.
I also don't think you get contactless with prepaid cards. There's the whole up to 3x £30 guarantee / fraud angle that can't be covered adequately on a prepaid card. (On a regular debit card, you can do up to 3x £30 transactions without authorisation, and if any of them are fraudulent, your bank will reimburse you, regardless of whether or not your card has been (reported) stolen)
Japan's IC card system is similar, and have been integrated across much of the country for universal use in transportation and cash-equivalent purchases.
There are essentially two kinds, one that's unregistered, and one where you actually enter your personal information and get your name printed on the card, so that the system can disable the card and the balance can be replaced if the card is lost.
At that point it's basically as trackable as any debit card.
There are essentially two kinds, one that's unregistered, and one where you actually enter your personal information and get your name printed on the card, so that the system can disable the card and the balance can be replaced if the card is lost.
At that point it's basically as trackable as any debit card.
As a tourist who has visited HK a few times now I have to say that I was really impressed by the convenience of the Octopus card. I'd never really considered the tracking implications.
Do they have their mobile devices with them? Electronic trail.
Did they appear in any photos? There's a trail.
Did they buy anything in that locality?
Did they call someone in that locality?
Just not using a card would seem to offer little protection unless they take care of at least the above.
Did they appear in any photos? There's a trail.
Did they buy anything in that locality?
Did they call someone in that locality?
Just not using a card would seem to offer little protection unless they take care of at least the above.
“This raises a lot of interesting questions about cash vs. cashless societies, and how in times of protest people may drastically adjust their usual economic behaviour.”
Also what happens when you dont have the option to “adjust your behavior”? Like at least in Germany payments above some amount I don’t remember can not legally be paid in cache.
Also what happens when you dont have the option to “adjust your behavior”? Like at least in Germany payments above some amount I don’t remember can not legally be paid in cache.
Citation? As far as I know, there is no limit for paying cash in Germany. To fight crime, you have to show an ID if the amount is 10.000€ or more. In some other European countries, there are limits for paying with cash, but I don‘t think it applies to Germany at the time of writing.
There's definitely not a legal limit for what can be paid in cash in Germany. Withdrawals or deposits of several thousand euros might lead to banks looking into it to prevent money laundering and there are stores who refuse to accept cash at a certain point, but it's not an official thing.
As a frequent visitor to HK and Octopus Card holder, I don't believe I ever had to present ID to obtain my card. I just purchased it with cash at the Airport Express counter. Is it different for HK citizens?
No, there are "anonymous" cards and "personalized" ones. Anonymous cards can't be refunded if you lose them, they also can't be linked to a bank account to automatically add value to the card "purse".
A large percentage of the resident cardholders have the personalized cards because it means not having to use cash at machines to add value.
A large percentage of the resident cardholders have the personalized cards because it means not having to use cash at machines to add value.
I see oarsinsync posted this comment:
>The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away.
Possible, although facial recognition seems to be used much less widely in HK than the mainland.
Perhaps police checkpoints are another concern: you might get stopped entering or leaving the MTR if your Octopus card shows you were at one of the stations where the protests took pkace. Although, isn't it easy enough to get off at Central (where the protests were not taking place) and walk over to Admiralty/Wan Chai (where they were), only 1-2 stops away?
Personally, I'd be more worried about discussing the protests via SMS or WeChat than getting there on my Octopus Card. Disclaimer: not a HK citizen.
>The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away.
Possible, although facial recognition seems to be used much less widely in HK than the mainland.
Perhaps police checkpoints are another concern: you might get stopped entering or leaving the MTR if your Octopus card shows you were at one of the stations where the protests took pkace. Although, isn't it easy enough to get off at Central (where the protests were not taking place) and walk over to Admiralty/Wan Chai (where they were), only 1-2 stops away?
Personally, I'd be more worried about discussing the protests via SMS or WeChat than getting there on my Octopus Card. Disclaimer: not a HK citizen.
It’s interesting how what this girl said (which frankly could be exaggerated or even made up for retweets and exposure) has turned into the title of this submission. Like embedding a pair of tweets and saying everybody is outraged. Journalism in 2019.
Isn’t it more likely that, for example, many of these people had to come from far away to protest and they simply do not have an octopus card or it’s not valid for this zone?
Isn’t it more likely that, for example, many of these people had to come from far away to protest and they simply do not have an octopus card or it’s not valid for this zone?
There is no concept of “zone” with the Octopus card. Basically anybody who lives in HK has an Octopus card. Its use is very much entrenched. It’s more convenient than any other “modern” payment method you can think of, including Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Visa payWave, etc. The only limitation is the daily automatic top-up limit.
Which is to say that the desire for anonymity is the actual cause of the long queues, unless you think a lot of dark-haired and yellow-skinned foreigners who never had Octopus cards were flooding to the protest, which is unlikely.
Which is to say that the desire for anonymity is the actual cause of the long queues, unless you think a lot of dark-haired and yellow-skinned foreigners who never had Octopus cards were flooding to the protest, which is unlikely.
Considering the history behind the Chinese government's response to protesters, I would be willing to consider that the title and related tweet is somewhat accurate.
Though I'd say that the hunch is right in this case, I'd be careful of falling into the trap of considering a news source more worthy just because it confirms your preexisting ideas.
Having been involved in the development and installation of the Octopus card, nearly everyone in Hong Kong has one. The card is valid on all public transport in the SAR (except the ferries and trams) and is also used for retail like 7-11 and equivalent.
> For additional context, since this photo doesn't show the whole scene: the line at every ticket machine stretched back 10+ meters.
Anecdotal, but I've never seen a queue at a ticket machine in Hong Kong. Octopus is so entrenched as a vital necessity in Hong Kong you'll even hear comics making jokes about one of the only essentials in HK is an Octopus card (while things like clothing are optional)
It's not at all like the minimal copycat that Oyster in London is. Your Octopus can be used in lieu of card or cash payments in many retail outlets, restaurants, vending machines, even some taxis, all over the SAR, not just on HK island.
The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away.