India's oldest yogini: V Nanammal, 98(qz.com)
qz.com
India's oldest yogini: V Nanammal, 98
https://qz.com/india/1010262/international-yoga-day-indias-oldest-yogini-says-youre-doing-yoga-wrong-if-youre-working-up-a-sweat/
69 comments
I don't go to yoga for authenticity. I enjoy the stretches and flexibility that comes from it. The endorphins are a nice side effect too. I can understand if some in India or even those around the world who practice traditional yoga or see it as a spiritual practice dislike western variants using the name yoga. Changing the name however wouldn't push me into traditional yoga. I'd still go to "Hot Core Power" class and enjoy it.
In India, do yoga, workup great sweat.
There are thousands of path reaching to the same goal - in some you workup sweat, in some not so. All good.
Go to office, raise family, give 100% = Karma Yoga.
There are thousands of path reaching to the same goal - in some you workup sweat, in some not so. All good.
Go to office, raise family, give 100% = Karma Yoga.
I was in India once and spent the night in an ashram. One of the monks told me that yoga literally just means "practice" and that there were many different types of yoga including spiritual yoga and yoga for clearing out your nose etc. etc.
What we call “yoga” in the West is actually “asana” which is only a small part of the yoga path. It’s preparation for higher practices like pranayama, mediation and sense withdrawal. On the spiritual path asana is really not very important.
>actually “asana” which is only a small part of the yoga path
"Small" only in the "Raja Yoga" path.
"Small" only in the "Raja Yoga" path.
Apparently "yoga" means "union" [1]. There are practices for clearing out the nose (neti) but they're not yoga in and of themselves. If you follow Patanjali [2] the ultimate aim of yoga is spiritual, and there are multiple paths to reach the same experience.
[1] https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-word-yoga-mean-in-Sanskr...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
[1] https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-word-yoga-mean-in-Sanskr...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
This is correct but Patanjali explicitly defines the yogic path as synonymous with 'perfect discipline' so while he acknowledges other paths he says this one is the one of discipline (so saying yoga means practice gives the right intuition imo)
"Yog" is a concatenation of all the things you do, and "Bhog" is the concatenation of consequences you get depending on your yog.
I prefer the more “mental” aspects of yoga practice. (I acknowledge my complete naïveté.) Where I practice tends to be “American vinyasa”-centric however. I try to keep an open mind.
There are a few classes from teachers who deviate from this, and I simply try to vote with my attendance at classes I prefer.
There are a few classes from teachers who deviate from this, and I simply try to vote with my attendance at classes I prefer.
When I explain to my english friends there are 4 types of Yoga they give me blank faces. I try and explain that if you believe in the science of the physical yoga that you do, invented by Hindu sages, then they clearly knew something and were onto something, try the others. But unfortunately I find most people will only follow something if its commercialised and mainstream.
I personally didn’t interpret the article as arguing for authenticity in and of itself, more that this lady beliefs her approach provides health benefits of a particular kind.
Nothing spiritual is prominently mentioned.
They do briefly mention her diet, which sounds Ayurvedic.
I too like the endorphins from yoga and hot yoga.
Nothing spiritual is prominently mentioned.
They do briefly mention her diet, which sounds Ayurvedic.
I too like the endorphins from yoga and hot yoga.
It’s not only about spirituality but about health. Sure, a hot core power class gives you flexibility for that time because breathing more makes your body alkaline. But afterwards you crave acidic food to balance the body. The food you crave is high in protein, table salt, processed, leaches calcium from your bones and makes you stiff in the long run and for the rest of your day.
Food does not leech calcium from the bones. High protein foods improve calcium absorption and increase calcium in your urine as a side-effect. No bone lost there.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12936953/
Can't find the study, but they made people eat irradiated calcium, and those with higher protein just peed out the irradiated calcium. Bones stay intact.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12936953/
Can't find the study, but they made people eat irradiated calcium, and those with higher protein just peed out the irradiated calcium. Bones stay intact.
Let me summarize what I took away from the study you posted:
> One mechanism by which high dietary protein could induce bone loss may be related to the metabolic acid load engendered by such a diet. Meat and fish, which are high in sulfur-containing amino acids, generate appreciable fixed metabolic acid loads, whereas fruits and vegetables generate little acid and, in fact, may under certain circumstances generate more base than acid.
> Paradoxically, when fracture is the principal outcome, low protein intakes are associated with lower rates of fracture in most epidemiologic studies
My point about craving processed food high in table salt and sulfur-containing amino acids—which ought to be also high in protein—after an alkalizing high intensity training is still valid.
> One mechanism by which high dietary protein could induce bone loss may be related to the metabolic acid load engendered by such a diet. Meat and fish, which are high in sulfur-containing amino acids, generate appreciable fixed metabolic acid loads, whereas fruits and vegetables generate little acid and, in fact, may under certain circumstances generate more base than acid.
> Paradoxically, when fracture is the principal outcome, low protein intakes are associated with lower rates of fracture in most epidemiologic studies
My point about craving processed food high in table salt and sulfur-containing amino acids—which ought to be also high in protein—after an alkalizing high intensity training is still valid.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15546911
Here's the study I was looking for. It's all radioactive calcium.
There might be an effect on muscle tissue but it's still quite unresearched as to how does the body counter the acidity.
Here's the study I was looking for. It's all radioactive calcium.
There might be an effect on muscle tissue but it's still quite unresearched as to how does the body counter the acidity.
I'm not a yogi and I admit that my view of yoga as practiced in the west is skewed toward categorizing it more under "fashion and marketing" than "spirituality". But whenever I read something like this article and start delighting myself with the strange joy of seeing something I disagree with being ridiculed, some inner bell tolls the signal that I should know better and that something in the message is probably missing. I just have to look for it a bit longer.
What if all these new age yogis with their sweating ways turned out to be able to perform their 100 surya namaskaras well past the age of 105, would it validate their form of yoga then? Do most people who practice the "traditional way" get to do it way past their 90s?
Every time I see someone pushing the "you're doing it wrong, here's the one true way" message, I have to remind myself that even Buddha insisted that he can only help to guide you in your own quest, but he can't be your master. There is certainly something to learn from all of the ways that yoga is practiced, claiming that you know better simply turns you into a nearly full jar. I'd rather take some and leave some.
What if all these new age yogis with their sweating ways turned out to be able to perform their 100 surya namaskaras well past the age of 105, would it validate their form of yoga then? Do most people who practice the "traditional way" get to do it way past their 90s?
Every time I see someone pushing the "you're doing it wrong, here's the one true way" message, I have to remind myself that even Buddha insisted that he can only help to guide you in your own quest, but he can't be your master. There is certainly something to learn from all of the ways that yoga is practiced, claiming that you know better simply turns you into a nearly full jar. I'd rather take some and leave some.
> What if all these new age yogis with their sweating ways turned out to be able to perform their 100 surya namaskaras well past the age of 105, would it validate their form of yoga then? Do most people who practice the "traditional way" get to do it way past their 90s?
I don't think "validation" is the right language any more than "right" or "wrong". People do yoga for a reason - health, aesthetic, spiritual, whatever. The validation comes from whether they get out of it what they want. Someone hoping to discover the spiritual stuff the gurus write about may be better served by a practice that focuses on that instead of longevity. Just because someone's reached 100+ years old doesn't mean they've got out of it what they want (i.e. if they seek spiritual experiences but haven't had any they may still feel frustrated).
I don't think "validation" is the right language any more than "right" or "wrong". People do yoga for a reason - health, aesthetic, spiritual, whatever. The validation comes from whether they get out of it what they want. Someone hoping to discover the spiritual stuff the gurus write about may be better served by a practice that focuses on that instead of longevity. Just because someone's reached 100+ years old doesn't mean they've got out of it what they want (i.e. if they seek spiritual experiences but haven't had any they may still feel frustrated).
The questions I asked served to highlight the ridicule of the criteria used to claim that something is wrong or right. So in essence, we agree.
The traditional yoga has stood the test of time. The Neo-Yoga is fragile to begin with, you need an artificial environment for those "hot"-yoga stuff.
Any good exercise should be accessible, the american "peleton" way of doing things is at best gimmiky. The only redeeming quality of neo-yoga is its much accessible, given the profitability aspect of it.
For maximum return of value stick to the traditional, if it is accessible to you.
Any good exercise should be accessible, the american "peleton" way of doing things is at best gimmiky. The only redeeming quality of neo-yoga is its much accessible, given the profitability aspect of it.
For maximum return of value stick to the traditional, if it is accessible to you.
Standing the test of time implies that you're doing something right, it doesn't mean that you've reached the pinnacle. I absolutely agree with you that the accessibility of traditional yoga translates into tremendous value, I also would admit that "neo-yoga", as you called it, seems exploitative to me. I would not go as far as claiming to know all of its benefits.
Something that stands 1000 years has gone through multiple refinements. It may or may not be pinnacle, but any twist has high probability to making it sub-optimal than optimal.
"Neo"-Yoga greatly misses on the mental aspects, and reduces a comprehensive system to a physical training. But, even in this diminished form its better than many alternatives. That was the point. I do not consider "neo"-yoga exploitative, I just consider it neo-mania, appealing to our urge for novelty.
"Neo"-Yoga greatly misses on the mental aspects, and reduces a comprehensive system to a physical training. But, even in this diminished form its better than many alternatives. That was the point. I do not consider "neo"-yoga exploitative, I just consider it neo-mania, appealing to our urge for novelty.
> Something that stands 1000 years has gone through multiple refinements. It may or may not be pinnacle, but any twist has high probability to making it sub-optimal than optimal.
How do you think these refinements happen, if not by trial and error? You don't just discover the right way to do something, you more likely also find a few wrong ways in the process. If there's one thing history has taught us about innovation it's that it happens in the most unlikely of places.
You know what else have gone through multiple refinements over millennia? Pleiades of religions that claim to successfully usher our spirituality. Are they wrong, are they right? Who knows? What I'm observing is that the world is still here waiting for something better.
How do you think these refinements happen, if not by trial and error? You don't just discover the right way to do something, you more likely also find a few wrong ways in the process. If there's one thing history has taught us about innovation it's that it happens in the most unlikely of places.
You know what else have gone through multiple refinements over millennia? Pleiades of religions that claim to successfully usher our spirituality. Are they wrong, are they right? Who knows? What I'm observing is that the world is still here waiting for something better.
Yup in India you can find a different "traditional way" from street to street. And there are lots of streets there.
When you have an actual problem and go looking for solutions you will find stuff. People who don't know what they are looking for will find a lot of unnecessary things. I think that's also from Buddha...or maybe Bruce Lee :)
When you have an actual problem and go looking for solutions you will find stuff. People who don't know what they are looking for will find a lot of unnecessary things. I think that's also from Buddha...or maybe Bruce Lee :)
Many comments were posted when the title was "You’re doing yoga wrong if you’re working up a sweat". We replaced that with the less baity (and more interesting) part of the article title.
Or maybe you (and by you I mean me in 2015) are so out of shape that standing for a while is itself a workout.
I see here people quoting "Patanjali Yoga Sutras" as a definitive text on everything Yoga. Not so; it is definitive only so far as "Raja Yoga" is concerned. In fact, it has got far more in common with Buddhist texts rather than Hatha Yoga (also Tantra) which is where you should look for insights on everything physical. To that end, the three main Hatha Yoga texts are;
1) The Gheranda Samhita
2) The Hatha Yoga Pradipika
3) The Siva Samhita
1) The Gheranda Samhita
2) The Hatha Yoga Pradipika
3) The Siva Samhita
I had a yoga teacher course myself. One of the lessons I took home is that there is no one right or original yoga. There are many kinds and most of them have their justification for existing. Hundreds of branches of yoga that have developed over time through series of different teachers. And why shouldn't new ones come along as well? Nothing wrong about goat yoga if it's healthy and enjoyable.
But I want to stress that yoga is not body building. It's not about bring beautiful, although that tends to be a side effect of health and happiness. The aim of yoga is to make you healthy, so healthy in fact that you can just forget about your body for a few days and meditate.
Yoga is also not just about asanas. It's about eight limbs (hatha), that include asanas, but also cleansing, right eating (vegetarian, and not too much), breathing exercises and a few other things. It's about doing what's good for your body so your mind can focus on what's important - meditation, doing right, ...
But what should be avoided is any harm. This is where for example hot yoga falls short - the heat is meant to increase flexibility, but it's also the most risky kind of yoga that sees frequent injuries. There's no reason to force your body to go beyond its current limits - rather you should slowly work to develop your flexibility, rather than force it with 'tricks'.
Do as you like, but don't try to do anything that is against your body. You only have one body. Make sure its healthy but don't try to do things you are not ready for or that might be harmful. E.g. an obvious one: crow pose is amazing but can for women put quite a bit of pressure on the ovaries so for any woman still planning to have kids it's not something to practice too intensely. Yes, do it, but don't force it and don't try to get to the point of pain.
Enjoy yoga - in all its forms.
But I want to stress that yoga is not body building. It's not about bring beautiful, although that tends to be a side effect of health and happiness. The aim of yoga is to make you healthy, so healthy in fact that you can just forget about your body for a few days and meditate.
Yoga is also not just about asanas. It's about eight limbs (hatha), that include asanas, but also cleansing, right eating (vegetarian, and not too much), breathing exercises and a few other things. It's about doing what's good for your body so your mind can focus on what's important - meditation, doing right, ...
But what should be avoided is any harm. This is where for example hot yoga falls short - the heat is meant to increase flexibility, but it's also the most risky kind of yoga that sees frequent injuries. There's no reason to force your body to go beyond its current limits - rather you should slowly work to develop your flexibility, rather than force it with 'tricks'.
Do as you like, but don't try to do anything that is against your body. You only have one body. Make sure its healthy but don't try to do things you are not ready for or that might be harmful. E.g. an obvious one: crow pose is amazing but can for women put quite a bit of pressure on the ovaries so for any woman still planning to have kids it's not something to practice too intensely. Yes, do it, but don't force it and don't try to get to the point of pain.
Enjoy yoga - in all its forms.
You have a small Error;
>It's about eight limbs (hatha)
"Hatha" does not mean eight limbs. The correct phrase is "Ashta(eight) Anga(limbs)" in Sanskrit.
>It's about eight limbs (hatha)
"Hatha" does not mean eight limbs. The correct phrase is "Ashta(eight) Anga(limbs)" in Sanskrit.
i've been to india twice to study yoga for months at a time, and i've done all kinds in the US. ok there are my creds.
yoga asana - the moving aspect - is only 1 of 8 branches of yoga and it has evolved significantly over time.
Even BKS Iyengar, the man who brought yoga to the West, changed his practice over time from a strong, powerful and probably sweaty style when he was younger to a slower style as he aged.
there isn't a "right way" to do yoga, but if you're looking for authenticity then follow a lineage that has ties to India. Iyengar yoga is probably the closest in the US and even those expert teachers will have different styles.
at any rate, find an instructor that gives detailed instructions. you shouldn't have to look at your neighbor to figure out what your body ought to be doing, and the point isn't for your hand to reach that one hard-to-reach place on day 1. that's why there are props because everyone's body is different.
yoga asana - the moving aspect - is only 1 of 8 branches of yoga and it has evolved significantly over time.
Even BKS Iyengar, the man who brought yoga to the West, changed his practice over time from a strong, powerful and probably sweaty style when he was younger to a slower style as he aged.
there isn't a "right way" to do yoga, but if you're looking for authenticity then follow a lineage that has ties to India. Iyengar yoga is probably the closest in the US and even those expert teachers will have different styles.
at any rate, find an instructor that gives detailed instructions. you shouldn't have to look at your neighbor to figure out what your body ought to be doing, and the point isn't for your hand to reach that one hard-to-reach place on day 1. that's why there are props because everyone's body is different.
As i point out in another post of mine, many people here are confusing "Hatha Yoga" with "Raja Yoga". The problem with BKS Iyengar/Krishnamachar/Pattabi Jois etc. schools is that they have mixed up both and sold it to the West and thus the resulting confusion.
Patanjali in his "Yoga Sutras"(main text for Raja Yoga) only says "posture should be steady and comfortable" (note asana = posture). Thats it. He also says nothing detailed about Pranayama. It is the internal mental aspects that are crucial in his system. Whether you do it sitting in a Chair, lying on a Bed is immaterial.
On the other hand, in Hatha Yoga the physical aspects are all important and are defined by Asana, Pranayama, Bandhas and Mudras. Here is where the forceful exercises come in. By a combination of body and breath, you try to induce certain sensations in your mind which is often defined as "Laya" i.e. "dissolution".
Patanjali in his "Yoga Sutras"(main text for Raja Yoga) only says "posture should be steady and comfortable" (note asana = posture). Thats it. He also says nothing detailed about Pranayama. It is the internal mental aspects that are crucial in his system. Whether you do it sitting in a Chair, lying on a Bed is immaterial.
On the other hand, in Hatha Yoga the physical aspects are all important and are defined by Asana, Pranayama, Bandhas and Mudras. Here is where the forceful exercises come in. By a combination of body and breath, you try to induce certain sensations in your mind which is often defined as "Laya" i.e. "dissolution".
I can't count the number of times I've had people tell me I'm doing $activity wrong, and learned long ago to completely ignore them because all that matters is that I enjoy doing the activity enough to not quit doing it daily as part of my routine.
For me, adhering to some kind of rigid protocol or model of perfection just ruins all the fun of it. I always strive towards making whatever it is feel good and fun, so I'm inspired to do it more, not less.
Doing anything physical every day is infinitely better than not doing it at all, even if done "imperfectly".
My $.02.
For me, adhering to some kind of rigid protocol or model of perfection just ruins all the fun of it. I always strive towards making whatever it is feel good and fun, so I'm inspired to do it more, not less.
Doing anything physical every day is infinitely better than not doing it at all, even if done "imperfectly".
My $.02.
I think this applies to just about everything except dead lifts. You really don’t want to do those wrong.
I'm not really referring to weight lifting at all.
I've had people cricitize me for doing pullups underhand instead of overhand, telling me my ability to do 10 of them is only because I'm "cheating" by doing them underhand. Nowadays I do them overhand, but when I first started exercising decades ago, it was easier and more fun to do them underhand so that's how I did it until my fitness improved.
The same thing has happened in consequence of some bro learning I do hundreds of pushups daily, but when I demonstrate it they criticize my not doing them "properly" because I don't go entirely to the ground on every rep. rolls eyes
Then I went distance running with someone and they criticized my slow pace as being the only reason I was able to run so much further than them, that I'm doing it wrong because I run too slowly.
It's important to ignore these folks, they're simply not helpful, and they're not saving anyone from injury.
Keep your activities fun for yourself and you'll do them more often, and doing them often is far more important than meeting the expectations of others.
I've had people cricitize me for doing pullups underhand instead of overhand, telling me my ability to do 10 of them is only because I'm "cheating" by doing them underhand. Nowadays I do them overhand, but when I first started exercising decades ago, it was easier and more fun to do them underhand so that's how I did it until my fitness improved.
The same thing has happened in consequence of some bro learning I do hundreds of pushups daily, but when I demonstrate it they criticize my not doing them "properly" because I don't go entirely to the ground on every rep. rolls eyes
Then I went distance running with someone and they criticized my slow pace as being the only reason I was able to run so much further than them, that I'm doing it wrong because I run too slowly.
It's important to ignore these folks, they're simply not helpful, and they're not saving anyone from injury.
Keep your activities fun for yourself and you'll do them more often, and doing them often is far more important than meeting the expectations of others.
Not quite true. It all depends upon the objective and the goal. Certain things can be achieved only by doing things correctly with "perfection"(ideal) as the goal. The more difficult and forceful the activity the greater is the importance on "correctness" else the risk of serious injury and lack of progress towards a goal.
For example, merely waving your arms and legs around will not make you a Martial Artist. You need to focus on the core concepts, techniques and methods of practice. One can approach this with three different goals in mind;
a) For simple Health benefits - Here you take it as easy or as difficult as you want to maintain health. Eg. Taichi chuan.
b) For Competitive purposes - Here you focus on the correct execution of techniques according to some standard. "Perfection" is the goal here. Eg. Wushu competition
c) For some other ideal eg. Fighting in Martial Arts - This requires a different approach where you focus on power, strength, mental toughness etc. Eg. Muay Thai, MMA etc.
The point is that while you have to keep your motivation up, you still have to go through a "correct" process which may not be always "feel good and fun".
For example, merely waving your arms and legs around will not make you a Martial Artist. You need to focus on the core concepts, techniques and methods of practice. One can approach this with three different goals in mind;
a) For simple Health benefits - Here you take it as easy or as difficult as you want to maintain health. Eg. Taichi chuan.
b) For Competitive purposes - Here you focus on the correct execution of techniques according to some standard. "Perfection" is the goal here. Eg. Wushu competition
c) For some other ideal eg. Fighting in Martial Arts - This requires a different approach where you focus on power, strength, mental toughness etc. Eg. Muay Thai, MMA etc.
The point is that while you have to keep your motivation up, you still have to go through a "correct" process which may not be always "feel good and fun".
You can definitely do some yoga asanas wrong. And some are outright dangerous.
* I've heard hot yoga can lead people to over stretch and injure themselves.
* Doing the lotus unless you're hyperflexible will probably knacker your knees
* There's lots of controversy around head stands. Who could imagine that putting 12 stone of bodyweight through your cervical vertebrae could possibly damage them?!?
But otherwise I agree with you. People tend to prefer the carrot rather than the stick, so as long as you feel good and have fun you're probably doing it right for you.
* I've heard hot yoga can lead people to over stretch and injure themselves.
* Doing the lotus unless you're hyperflexible will probably knacker your knees
* There's lots of controversy around head stands. Who could imagine that putting 12 stone of bodyweight through your cervical vertebrae could possibly damage them?!?
But otherwise I agree with you. People tend to prefer the carrot rather than the stick, so as long as you feel good and have fun you're probably doing it right for you.
If you do any physical activity in "wrong" way, you risk hurting your body in the long run.
Like its fun to just waltz in a minefield, but sometimes learning from net personal experiance is worse than following advice from someone who already lost a leg to a mine.
Like its fun to just waltz in a minefield, but sometimes learning from net personal experiance is worse than following advice from someone who already lost a leg to a mine.
The vast majority of activities do not have any such risks, not everything involves lifting heavy weights.
For example, if you do pushups every day but don't go 100% down to the ground on every rep, you're not risking anything at all. It's just not a meaningful count for comparison to other people's pushup numbers for competitive purposes. Since it's not a competition, who cares, do it however you find is most pleasant and most likely to continue happening daily.
For example, if you do pushups every day but don't go 100% down to the ground on every rep, you're not risking anything at all. It's just not a meaningful count for comparison to other people's pushup numbers for competitive purposes. Since it's not a competition, who cares, do it however you find is most pleasant and most likely to continue happening daily.
The title is misleading: there are many forms of yoga, and there are older people than her in India practicing them. She might be the oldest person teaching Hatha Yoga, now commonly called "yoga", focusing on asanas and maybe some pranayamas - that's mostly it. Hardly anyone is teaching the complete eight limbs because most people are interested only in asanas, and, more importantly, there are very few people who achieved mastery over all eight branches and are able to transmit their knowledge.
I've studied yoga for 20 years. The style in the west was developed during the Raj, influenced by European physical exercise. Classic yoga takes Asana as mainly the precursor to loosen the body and correct the flow of prana (where minds meets body). Pranayama and meditation and are more central. Patanjali's defining text makes very little mention of asanas at all.
This year I started practicing Qi Gong. It emphasizes slow conscious movements and soft breathing. You are supposed to do this in yoga as well but it's very easy to make mistakes, even injuries.
Qi Gong has solved all of my lower back problems and the tensions in my shoulders and arms. You loosen and breath rather than pulling and stretching.
Qi Gong has solved all of my lower back problems and the tensions in my shoulders and arms. You loosen and breath rather than pulling and stretching.
Qi Gong tends to put more emphasis on working with "environmental qi", drawing it in from the outside (Earth, nature, space, your imagination). It can be great for charging yourself up when combined with a practice like 5-point breathing. The kicker is that you can also do it while doing yoga asanas.
Yoga pranayama typically only works with prana in the body or uses mechanical breathing techniques (e.g. bhastrika, etc) to draw in prana as a by-product. But it'd be impractical (and probably dangerous) to do a practice like bhastrika while performing yoga asanas.
Doing Qi Gong practices while practicing yoga can really supercharge them. On the inhalation draw energy in from deep in the Earth through your feet to your lower dan tien/navel, and on the exhalation send it out your hands wherever they're pointing (probably the sky or Earth). Then on the next round inhale from where your hands are pointing, taking the qi/prana to the lower dan tien and then exhale out the feet or crown. Keep repeating this, always inhaling in through the 'gate' you just exhaled from. Do this for 5-10 minutes at first and build up. It'll really charge you up. You should learn the Macrocosmic Orbit first, but hopefully you already know that if you've been learning Qi Gong. If not, check out Mantak Chia's Awaken Healing Energy through the Tao.
Yoga pranayama typically only works with prana in the body or uses mechanical breathing techniques (e.g. bhastrika, etc) to draw in prana as a by-product. But it'd be impractical (and probably dangerous) to do a practice like bhastrika while performing yoga asanas.
Doing Qi Gong practices while practicing yoga can really supercharge them. On the inhalation draw energy in from deep in the Earth through your feet to your lower dan tien/navel, and on the exhalation send it out your hands wherever they're pointing (probably the sky or Earth). Then on the next round inhale from where your hands are pointing, taking the qi/prana to the lower dan tien and then exhale out the feet or crown. Keep repeating this, always inhaling in through the 'gate' you just exhaled from. Do this for 5-10 minutes at first and build up. It'll really charge you up. You should learn the Macrocosmic Orbit first, but hopefully you already know that if you've been learning Qi Gong. If not, check out Mantak Chia's Awaken Healing Energy through the Tao.
I am sorry to say this but your post is bunkum. You seem to have been studying some wrong books and listening to possible charlatans. Mantak chia, Yang jwing-ming and their ilk are not authentic. They are making a living by hustling on what little they know about Chinese/Asian arts to a clueless West. There is a lot of nonsense out there on Yoga, Tantra, Qigong etc. and hence one needs to be careful on where one gets their knowledge from.
I highly suggest that you look for some authentic sources (see my other posts in this thread) in subjects that interest you and base your studies on them instead.
I highly suggest that you look for some authentic sources (see my other posts in this thread) in subjects that interest you and base your studies on them instead.
What, specifically is "bunkum" here? What's your definition of an "authentic source"? This is just more FUD, easily dispelled. Just try doing 5-point breathing while doing yoga and see for yourself.
>Just try doing 5-point breathing while doing yoga
Why should i try this when i can do 12-point Neigong-Daoyin-Waigong-Shaolin-Micro-Macro with a side of Yoga-Tantra-Chakra-Channels and a topping of Reiki? :-)
...jk...
I am just trying to help out people who are interested in esoteric subjects of which i have some knowledge by steering them away from BS and charlatans.
I will provide a more serious answer in my response to your other post so that everything is in one place.
Why should i try this when i can do 12-point Neigong-Daoyin-Waigong-Shaolin-Micro-Macro with a side of Yoga-Tantra-Chakra-Channels and a topping of Reiki? :-)
...jk...
I am just trying to help out people who are interested in esoteric subjects of which i have some knowledge by steering them away from BS and charlatans.
I will provide a more serious answer in my response to your other post so that everything is in one place.
At Sivananda in Rishikesh they alternated between Asana and Pranayama. This was quite effective. I have had some good teachers (eg. Dharma Mittra in NYC), but rarely do they get into Pranayama at all.
The Mantak Chia book is exactly the kind of text I've been looking for. Thanks!
The Mantak Chia book is exactly the kind of text I've been looking for. Thanks!
Please do not read Mantak Chia books on Qigong. He is considered a fraud by many.
Just like authentic Yoga has been corrupted in the West by incompetent teachers and plain charlatans, so is the case with Qigong. You should always go to the original sources i.e. Chinese works where possible. To that end you may find the following helpful;
1) Qigong Essentials for Health Promotion - https://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Essentials-Health-Promotion-Gu...
2) Chinese Qigong Therapy - https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Qigong-Therapy-Zhang-Mingwu/d...
Some of them may be expensive because they are hard to get but no need to pay too much for any of them. You can get authentic works from the website "china-guide.com".
Just like authentic Yoga has been corrupted in the West by incompetent teachers and plain charlatans, so is the case with Qigong. You should always go to the original sources i.e. Chinese works where possible. To that end you may find the following helpful;
1) Qigong Essentials for Health Promotion - https://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Essentials-Health-Promotion-Gu...
2) Chinese Qigong Therapy - https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Qigong-Therapy-Zhang-Mingwu/d...
Some of them may be expensive because they are hard to get but no need to pay too much for any of them. You can get authentic works from the website "china-guide.com".
> He is considered a fraud by many.
By whom exactly? People who are upset that he's selling books on the practices for less than $10 instead of $300? Apparently some schools' highest teaching is the Macrocosmic Orbit. Of course you'd be annoyed if someone was giving away your highest secrets in a $10 book - you'd struggle to find new students prepared to sit at your feet for several decades while you drip feed it to them (which is what I've heard of).
There may be an issue with making sense of the volume of material he's put out and its repetitive nature, but to imply he's incompetent and a charlatan is just spreading FUD.
By whom exactly? People who are upset that he's selling books on the practices for less than $10 instead of $300? Apparently some schools' highest teaching is the Macrocosmic Orbit. Of course you'd be annoyed if someone was giving away your highest secrets in a $10 book - you'd struggle to find new students prepared to sit at your feet for several decades while you drip feed it to them (which is what I've heard of).
There may be an issue with making sense of the volume of material he's put out and its repetitive nature, but to imply he's incompetent and a charlatan is just spreading FUD.
He is a business man selling stuff to a gullible public. Because the nature of the stuff is so amorphous you can easily distort and invent it as needed.
Note that the price of the book has got nothing whatever to do with it. You are probably referring to my first book recommendation which some enterprising soul is trying to sell for a huge markup (i.e. $300 because it is not easily available) but i just provided the link for reference. You can get it cheap if you search. Or you can read other cheaper equivalent books, one of which i had also provided as my second recommendation.
Now you asked me to define "authentic" sources in your other post. For TCM/Qigong you would start with publications from mainland China preferably by doctors/professors from a Medical College/University/Hospital who study both modern and TCM medicine. You would then try to get at the root texts for the subject. With these sources in hand, you can now start your study. So here goes;
1) The root text for TCM is "Huangdi Neijing" aka "The Yellow Emperor's Canon of Medicine". Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing for your research.
2) TCM textbooks have been published from many doctors/institutes in China, two of which (related to Qigong) i had already listed earlier. Here is another recommendation - https://www.amazon.com/Illustration-channels-points-acupunct... Also check the website "www.china-guide.com" for authentic books on TCM/Qigong.
Finally here is a paper named "The Man who Invented Qigong" which explains the origin of the word and its current methodology - https://www.qigonginstitute.org/docs/The%20Man%20Who%20Inven...
Note that the price of the book has got nothing whatever to do with it. You are probably referring to my first book recommendation which some enterprising soul is trying to sell for a huge markup (i.e. $300 because it is not easily available) but i just provided the link for reference. You can get it cheap if you search. Or you can read other cheaper equivalent books, one of which i had also provided as my second recommendation.
Now you asked me to define "authentic" sources in your other post. For TCM/Qigong you would start with publications from mainland China preferably by doctors/professors from a Medical College/University/Hospital who study both modern and TCM medicine. You would then try to get at the root texts for the subject. With these sources in hand, you can now start your study. So here goes;
1) The root text for TCM is "Huangdi Neijing" aka "The Yellow Emperor's Canon of Medicine". Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing for your research.
2) TCM textbooks have been published from many doctors/institutes in China, two of which (related to Qigong) i had already listed earlier. Here is another recommendation - https://www.amazon.com/Illustration-channels-points-acupunct... Also check the website "www.china-guide.com" for authentic books on TCM/Qigong.
Finally here is a paper named "The Man who Invented Qigong" which explains the origin of the word and its current methodology - https://www.qigonginstitute.org/docs/The%20Man%20Who%20Inven...
> He is a business man selling stuff to a gullible public. Because the nature of the stuff is so amorphous you can easily distort and invent it as needed.
That is true. And the "amorphous" comment holds for any teacher. Had you really investigated his stuff (which I get the feeling you haven't) you'd probably have gone further. Chia's books contain a lot of repetition and in aggregate are confusing to follow. Some even contain such gibberish as claiming that water has a "crystalline structure". In my experience it's difficult to find a competent teacher who actually understands (and can teach) the overall system. However, the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic Orbits are effective as can be discovered with a day or two's effort and are widely referenced in much older sources as the Lesser and Greater Water Wheels/Heavenly Cycles. So it'd be unwise to throw the baby out with the bath water on account of someone being a businessman. The Fusion practices are interesting and insightful if done correctly and the Kan & Li meditations also appears effective (but I'm still exploring them). The Kan & Li is the mainstay of internal alchemy and is widely discussed in a variety of far older texts [1], so I doubt he's made that one up either.
Michael Winn talks about how the Communist government gutted qi gong of its spiritual practices and that TCM is diluted as a result (one of your articles mentions a clampdown on it too). I believe Winn's been to China several times and has studied with a variety of teachers apart from Chia. His stuff stacks up so I'm inclined to believe him.
While it's fine to reference older texts though, no one has a monopoly on our nervous systems. For me, the only thing that matters is efficacy regardless of lineage/culture. I don't care for names, superstitions, mythologies or rituals - I only seek (and keep hold of) what works for me. We are incredibly fortunate to live at a time when formerly secret knowledge is widely available. I would encourage the astute student to also study cross-culturally in order to find the most effective, personally verifiable practices available given today's opportunities for research.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Harmonizing-Yin-Yang-Dragon-Tiger-Cla...
That is true. And the "amorphous" comment holds for any teacher. Had you really investigated his stuff (which I get the feeling you haven't) you'd probably have gone further. Chia's books contain a lot of repetition and in aggregate are confusing to follow. Some even contain such gibberish as claiming that water has a "crystalline structure". In my experience it's difficult to find a competent teacher who actually understands (and can teach) the overall system. However, the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic Orbits are effective as can be discovered with a day or two's effort and are widely referenced in much older sources as the Lesser and Greater Water Wheels/Heavenly Cycles. So it'd be unwise to throw the baby out with the bath water on account of someone being a businessman. The Fusion practices are interesting and insightful if done correctly and the Kan & Li meditations also appears effective (but I'm still exploring them). The Kan & Li is the mainstay of internal alchemy and is widely discussed in a variety of far older texts [1], so I doubt he's made that one up either.
Michael Winn talks about how the Communist government gutted qi gong of its spiritual practices and that TCM is diluted as a result (one of your articles mentions a clampdown on it too). I believe Winn's been to China several times and has studied with a variety of teachers apart from Chia. His stuff stacks up so I'm inclined to believe him.
While it's fine to reference older texts though, no one has a monopoly on our nervous systems. For me, the only thing that matters is efficacy regardless of lineage/culture. I don't care for names, superstitions, mythologies or rituals - I only seek (and keep hold of) what works for me. We are incredibly fortunate to live at a time when formerly secret knowledge is widely available. I would encourage the astute student to also study cross-culturally in order to find the most effective, personally verifiable practices available given today's opportunities for research.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Harmonizing-Yin-Yang-Dragon-Tiger-Cla...
Your last paragraph has a lot of truth while your first paragraph is still wedded to wrong ideas. Let me structure my response differently;
1) First, my point in listing the paper on Qigong is that, it is a practice which has been established after the "Cultural Revolution" and thus is a sanitized version from a whole babel of ancient texts with a severe focus on practical efficacy and knowledge of modern science. Thus its inclusion under TCM which was promoted by the Chinese govt. In this process some of the possible valid allegorical levels and mystical knowledge may have been lost since they were considered "woo-woo" gilded in mere flowery language. But the end result is something which is concrete and valid enough to be accepted as "Alternative Medicine" which is a good thing. So you have a solid baseline if you start your studies here.
2) Now you might be interested in studying the ancient texts(from Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism) with all their allegories and flowery language to figure out what might have been lost during the standardization process. But this is quite hard without having the baseline knowledge mentioned above. This is where the hucksters and charlatans have a field day. They take some words/verses/ideas from these texts, interpret them in their own way with no proper comprehension, draw absurd parallels with other similar systems/modern science and hey presto; you have a series of books to sell and a cult to build. The waters have now been muddied. So a student first needs to do some proper research for authentic sources. In this day and age that is not too difficult. For example, you have definitive translations done by "Fabizio Pregadio"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Pregadio) who is a scholar on "Taoist Alchemy" which is what you seem to be interested in. See his works here: https://www.goldenelixir.com/press/_sub_taoism.html
1) First, my point in listing the paper on Qigong is that, it is a practice which has been established after the "Cultural Revolution" and thus is a sanitized version from a whole babel of ancient texts with a severe focus on practical efficacy and knowledge of modern science. Thus its inclusion under TCM which was promoted by the Chinese govt. In this process some of the possible valid allegorical levels and mystical knowledge may have been lost since they were considered "woo-woo" gilded in mere flowery language. But the end result is something which is concrete and valid enough to be accepted as "Alternative Medicine" which is a good thing. So you have a solid baseline if you start your studies here.
2) Now you might be interested in studying the ancient texts(from Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism) with all their allegories and flowery language to figure out what might have been lost during the standardization process. But this is quite hard without having the baseline knowledge mentioned above. This is where the hucksters and charlatans have a field day. They take some words/verses/ideas from these texts, interpret them in their own way with no proper comprehension, draw absurd parallels with other similar systems/modern science and hey presto; you have a series of books to sell and a cult to build. The waters have now been muddied. So a student first needs to do some proper research for authentic sources. In this day and age that is not too difficult. For example, you have definitive translations done by "Fabizio Pregadio"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrizio_Pregadio) who is a scholar on "Taoist Alchemy" which is what you seem to be interested in. See his works here: https://www.goldenelixir.com/press/_sub_taoism.html
Those Fabizio Pregadio books look good, thanks for sharing.
I only have one correction to make here, Parna is not limited to breathing techniques, it's breath and literally whatever we take from the environment to stay alive.
check out "Spark in the Machine" if you want the anatomical analysis of how Qi travels through our fascial planes.
Hatha Yoga is primarily physical can be traced to 1st century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_yoga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_yoga
Yes, but it's but one of the 8 limbs of yoga. What is recent is for people to refer to yoga as primarily asanas and European style exercise sessions.
BKS Iyengar was the one who really revitalized and established yoga in the modern era, but know it's been over run by pure Hatha Asana.
BKS Iyengar was the one who really revitalized and established yoga in the modern era, but know it's been over run by pure Hatha Asana.
Parana is life itself, and they equate it with breath and even nutrients, literally whatever we gain from the environment.
There are different schools of yog though. There is no single traditional Indian school. There are variants, that do infact promote high energy movements. Having said that, their observation is strict and mixing and matching them in single session is a no-no
She also says you're doing yoga wrong if you're practicing any time other than between 3 AM and 5 AM in the morning. She's part of a strict school that focuses on pranayama, breath-work, a major part of yoga in India but rarely mentioned in the West. I recommend the Wim Hof method if anybody's interested, it's similar to the Indian and Tibetan practices.
Spot on! This is called Brahmamuhurtha in Hinduism, when I explain to my english friends there are 4 types of Yoga they give me blank faces. I try and explain that if you believe in the science of the physical yoga that you do, invented by Hindu sages, then they clearly knew something and were onto something, try the others. But unfortunately I find most people will only follow something if its commercialised and mainstream.
What are some good beginners resources on pranayama? Wondering if it can help my sleep apnea.
Well, I guess I'm doing something other than yoga. Works for me though.
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ahh she belongs to my place... very famous...
True inspiration
True inspiration
This just in, person who is 100 years old thinks the old ways of doing things are better
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.