Canadians name top appliance brands that break down(cbc.ca)
cbc.ca
Canadians name top appliance brands that break down
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/marketplace-appliances-right-to-repair-1.5475649
100 comments
UPDATE: I was wrong. Whirlpool did in fact make Kenmore branded appliances for Sears (though Whirlpool wasn't their only manufacturer.) So Kenmore's not independent after all.
The junky rusted refrigerator in my garage (that I got for $200 in 1995) has never failed me like this beautiful expensive one has.
Sometimes it just stops cooling. It reports inside temperatures 20+ degrees below what they are. They replaced the motherboard. They replaced the entire fridge. At least once a year I lose all of my food.
Sometimes it just stops cooling. It reports inside temperatures 20+ degrees below what they are. They replaced the motherboard. They replaced the entire fridge. At least once a year I lose all of my food.
Check out local used appliance stores. You can probably get something ~10 years old that will look new enough but still be somewhat reparable and non-smart. Shops that sell used appliances generally also repair them, so they'll know what's most reparable and you'll be able to go back to them for parts.
Support the repair and used-goods economy, otherwise we'll just have disposable options.
Support the repair and used-goods economy, otherwise we'll just have disposable options.
I still have two refrigerators bought in 1997. They work fine and cost $5/month to run. Company is out of business and I'll probably never find any as nice when I finally have to replace them.
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Rather than seeing this as a conspiracy, it’s worth considering that the cause of shorter lifespan is simply our improved ability to build cheaply. For mechanical products with many parts (any one of which breaking would break the machine) variability of lifespan is extremely sensitive to variability of lifespan of each individual part.
So to reach a certain reliability, i. e. „less than 10% failure rate in the first five years“ you needed to overprovision to such a degree that the 90% remaining after five years would tend to life on indefinitely.
Material science has radically improved. Every part comes with precise expected lifetime. That allows building „crap“ where everything fails after exactly five years (or whatever you plan for).
While shorter lifetimes may well be in the manufactures‘ interest, it isn’t clear that they aren’t also in the consumers‘ and public interest, at least some of the time. Use of material and energy can be drastically reduced. Prices have come done way more than lifetimes have. And at least in the current moment, energy efficiency is improving at a pace where running 20-year old appliances is wrong both financially as well as ecologically.
So to reach a certain reliability, i. e. „less than 10% failure rate in the first five years“ you needed to overprovision to such a degree that the 90% remaining after five years would tend to life on indefinitely.
Material science has radically improved. Every part comes with precise expected lifetime. That allows building „crap“ where everything fails after exactly five years (or whatever you plan for).
While shorter lifetimes may well be in the manufactures‘ interest, it isn’t clear that they aren’t also in the consumers‘ and public interest, at least some of the time. Use of material and energy can be drastically reduced. Prices have come done way more than lifetimes have. And at least in the current moment, energy efficiency is improving at a pace where running 20-year old appliances is wrong both financially as well as ecologically.
I recently replaced a freezer. (Yes, this is purely anecdotal.) Comparing the Energy Star rating from my old freezer to the new one, I'm saving just a dollar a month. Now, I have no idea what the calculations would be to figure out the carbon cost of that electricity versus what it cost to actually make and ship that freezer. But I'm guessing it's close to a wash.
According to Energy Star's own website, "replacing your old freezer with one that has earned the ENERGY STAR could save you $195 over the next 5 years." I'm guessing the figures they're using are on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but that still doesn't seem that impressive when you consider the production costs. Which, admittedly, I have no idea of, but assume are not great because refrigerant and insulation are involved.
According to Energy Star's own website, "replacing your old freezer with one that has earned the ENERGY STAR could save you $195 over the next 5 years." I'm guessing the figures they're using are on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but that still doesn't seem that impressive when you consider the production costs. Which, admittedly, I have no idea of, but assume are not great because refrigerant and insulation are involved.
Yeah. The environmental cost of manufacturing a new appliance and disposing of an old one needs to be considered. I just don't see how replacing could be more environmentally friendly than repairing. I wonder if the whole ENERGY STAR thing is just an industry wide marketing gimmick to change the public's perception so we can sell ourselves on the idea of throwing so much waste into a landfill.
On top of the disposal aspect... Well what about after they are "disposed of"? They are not recycled. Nearly anything wrapped in consumer grade plastic or stainless steel sheeting isn't. It just goes to a landfill. This is fine in the very, very long term (1000+ years), but as of now, pollution is a pretty bad thing, and will be worse for progeny.
My 23-year-old refrigerators were made to run on solar power. Compared to them, Energy Star appliances look like wasteful energy hogs.
I had to have a control board replaced on a Maytag Dryer, under waranty. Since I watched the tech do it, I could not shake from my head -- "this could be a tiny script plus a RPi or an Arduino with a Relay board" Is anyone working on something like that, or are liabilities to great?
In Germany if your appliance breaks down and causes damage to your apartment, your insurance will not cover you if you've made out of spec modifications to it.
Exactly. Arduino is more than capable. The programming is trivial and the components are super cheap; we're not talking rad-hard parts here. I'm thinking for my next washer I'll take the board out and re-solder all the joints, put a decent power conditioner on it, and add a fan and decent capacitors. Should last forever.
Or better yet, open source washing machines.
Or better yet, open source washing machines.
Isn't this a natural outcome of efficiency improvements in refrigeration? I thought the rule of thumb was replacing them every 4 years or so, why would they over-engineer components with lifespans greater than this?
I'd say the only real improvement has been better insulation; if anything the newer "more environmentally friendly" refrigerants are less efficient than the CFCs that they replaced, which were specifically chosen for their nearly ideal properties at everything besides ozone depletion and global warming (which was unknown at the time.)
I restored a 92-year-old refrigerator, which involved reinsulating it, among other things. The compressor and rest of the hermetic system is original, as is the refrigerant. It actually consumes far less power than most people would guess --- on par with the newest high-efficiency models which I suspect would not last nearly a century.
I restored a 92-year-old refrigerator, which involved reinsulating it, among other things. The compressor and rest of the hermetic system is original, as is the refrigerant. It actually consumes far less power than most people would guess --- on par with the newest high-efficiency models which I suspect would not last nearly a century.
Fascinating! I need to find a new fridge (new apartment, the fridge spot in the kitchen is a stupid size); will look into the refurb approach.
This problem will be solved by service/subscription business models.
If you pay for a service, it is in the interest of the supplier to make the product last for as long as possible.
If you pay for a service, it is in the interest of the supplier to make the product last for as long as possible.
You're missing the point entirely. I want to buy a thing, not rent it, whether that's for 5 years or in perpetuity... I'm tired of paying rent.
You're right, but the problem is that businesses must have recurring revenue to exist.
During the roll out phase, such as when appliances were a new thing and everyone wanted to buy one, companies could make super reliable appliances and they would still get recurring revenue because there was a ton of unmet demand.
Now everyone has a fridge, washing machine, etc. If they all lasted 30 years you would have a serious problem with keeping the supply chain alive. In the end what would probably happen is that the price would explode since now a new fridge would be more of a small run custom manufacturing job than a mass produced item.
Trouble there is that people won't pay $2000 for a fridge even if it is extremely well built and will last 30 years.
Play this out and you can see what happens. Enter the cheap competitors who make appliances that last 5 years... pretty soon the market looks exactly like it does today.
Large industrial supply chains aren't simple machines. You basically can't turn them off and then on again. A ton of the seemingly irrational nonsense in markets stems from the fact that everything has to find recurring revenue to stay "hot" or you just lose it entirely. We can't go back to the moon because we stopped going, so we lost the supply chain for the Saturn V.
During the roll out phase, such as when appliances were a new thing and everyone wanted to buy one, companies could make super reliable appliances and they would still get recurring revenue because there was a ton of unmet demand.
Now everyone has a fridge, washing machine, etc. If they all lasted 30 years you would have a serious problem with keeping the supply chain alive. In the end what would probably happen is that the price would explode since now a new fridge would be more of a small run custom manufacturing job than a mass produced item.
Trouble there is that people won't pay $2000 for a fridge even if it is extremely well built and will last 30 years.
Play this out and you can see what happens. Enter the cheap competitors who make appliances that last 5 years... pretty soon the market looks exactly like it does today.
Large industrial supply chains aren't simple machines. You basically can't turn them off and then on again. A ton of the seemingly irrational nonsense in markets stems from the fact that everything has to find recurring revenue to stay "hot" or you just lose it entirely. We can't go back to the moon because we stopped going, so we lost the supply chain for the Saturn V.
> Trouble there is that people won't pay $2000 for a fridge even if it is extremely well built and will last 30 years.
It's all about expectation management. Of course people today would be shocked by huge price rises, but eventually, as the "new normal" bedded in, no one would bat an eye.
Take light bulbs as an example. Here in the UK filament bulbs used to regularly burn out, and the replacements cost maybe £1 each. When filament bulbs were phased out, compact fluorescents (CF) were subsidised and cost... about £1 each. The entire light bulb "fleet" was changed over with very little fuss.
Now these new bulbs last for 20 years, so the number of replacements we need to buy is minimal. I can't buy CFs in shops these days, it's all LEDs, and they cost £6 each. But nobody cares, because lightbulbs are no longer an every day purchase.
In fact, I recently fitted new lights in a room, and a friend of mine was baffled by the LED bulbs. He'd never seen them, _because all of his own old CFs were still working._
It's all about expectation management. Of course people today would be shocked by huge price rises, but eventually, as the "new normal" bedded in, no one would bat an eye.
Take light bulbs as an example. Here in the UK filament bulbs used to regularly burn out, and the replacements cost maybe £1 each. When filament bulbs were phased out, compact fluorescents (CF) were subsidised and cost... about £1 each. The entire light bulb "fleet" was changed over with very little fuss.
Now these new bulbs last for 20 years, so the number of replacements we need to buy is minimal. I can't buy CFs in shops these days, it's all LEDs, and they cost £6 each. But nobody cares, because lightbulbs are no longer an every day purchase.
In fact, I recently fitted new lights in a room, and a friend of mine was baffled by the LED bulbs. He'd never seen them, _because all of his own old CFs were still working._
As long as the population and number of new households keeps increasing, there will always be demand for new appliances. The analogy to the Saturn V doesn't really hold up.
There's also a ton of unmet demand in developing countries. Companies can continue to have their always-growing markets of yesteryear over there.
There's also a ton of unmet demand in developing countries. Companies can continue to have their always-growing markets of yesteryear over there.
Or the government ties tax policy to the robustness of their products. 5 year lifetime? 90% tax for you!
Problem is, in this case the supplier would have no interest in limiting power usage for example. The interests still do not align right.
Why would they let any business model take shape unless it makes them as much or more money?
> When asked to recall the manufacturer of the appliance that broke down, Kenmore was named more than any other brand, accounting for 21 per cent — or about one in five — of all appliance breakdowns in Canada.
The above makes me wonder if they understand probabality and statistics. Kenmore is an extremely popular and long-standing brand in Canada. Of course a popular brand is going to have more breakdowns on an absolute basis than unpopular brands.
If they had said something like, "Kenmore owners named Kenmore appliances as breaking down more often than owners of other brands", then I'd have more confidence that they corrected for the popularity, but they didn't say it that way.
The above makes me wonder if they understand probabality and statistics. Kenmore is an extremely popular and long-standing brand in Canada. Of course a popular brand is going to have more breakdowns on an absolute basis than unpopular brands.
If they had said something like, "Kenmore owners named Kenmore appliances as breaking down more often than owners of other brands", then I'd have more confidence that they corrected for the popularity, but they didn't say it that way.
I had this same thought when I watched the segment the other day, and I've had the same questions with other Marketplace segments. At least with what they talk about, they give no indications that they follow a proper statistical approach and account for market size, sample selection, etc.
That said, marketplace has put pressure on companies and governments for action in other cases, so I suspect they are a net positive for consumer protection in Canada. So even if the stats are bad, if the over dramatic format helps push right to repair or other consumer protection, it's likely still a win. Just would be more compelling if it was a proper analysis or indicated a proper analysis took place.
I actually did a bit of work on the receiving side of one of their segments once, about a runaway cell phone bill, although it was primarily tackled by another engineer. Turned out it was a third party app the subscriber had downloaded that didn't handle permanent failures in the email protocol for attachment size, so it would sit in a retry loop to send an email while the phone was on. As can probably be expected, standard support wouldn't be able to figure something like that out, and it would die inside telco support. A little embarrassment from the CBC and the right people took a look, the app gets fixed, bill credited, etc. (This was before phone would really indicate what apps were using data).
*My views are my own, and don't represent any position of current or former employers.
That said, marketplace has put pressure on companies and governments for action in other cases, so I suspect they are a net positive for consumer protection in Canada. So even if the stats are bad, if the over dramatic format helps push right to repair or other consumer protection, it's likely still a win. Just would be more compelling if it was a proper analysis or indicated a proper analysis took place.
I actually did a bit of work on the receiving side of one of their segments once, about a runaway cell phone bill, although it was primarily tackled by another engineer. Turned out it was a third party app the subscriber had downloaded that didn't handle permanent failures in the email protocol for attachment size, so it would sit in a retry loop to send an email while the phone was on. As can probably be expected, standard support wouldn't be able to figure something like that out, and it would die inside telco support. A little embarrassment from the CBC and the right people took a look, the app gets fixed, bill credited, etc. (This was before phone would really indicate what apps were using data).
*My views are my own, and don't represent any position of current or former employers.
I was thinking the same thing. The fact that they rank the most "broken down" brands is amusing too. Of course these just represent the five most popular.
I'd check Consumer Reports. Probably the same quality in both countries.
Kenmore also doesn't manufacture most (any?) of their appliances, making this "study" even more nonsensical.
They never manufactured any of their appliances. There never was a Kenmore factory.
Kenmore has been a brand label of Sears since the mail-order catalog days. Almost any and every manufacturer out there has been relabeled as a Kenmore at one time or another, from kitchen appliances (GE, Whirlpool, Amana, LG, Frigidaire, etc) to lawn mowers (Black & Decker, Briggs & Stratton) to air conditioners (GE, Fedders, Carrier, Amana).
Similarly, the Die-Hard brand was used for automotive parts and the Craftsman brand was used for tools. Again, all made by other companies (Johnson Controls, Exide, Skil, Black & Decker, Stanley, Chamberlain, etc).
What the OP article really points to is the breakdown of Sears in Canada, which for a long time was way stronger and more stable than the American side.
Kenmore has been a brand label of Sears since the mail-order catalog days. Almost any and every manufacturer out there has been relabeled as a Kenmore at one time or another, from kitchen appliances (GE, Whirlpool, Amana, LG, Frigidaire, etc) to lawn mowers (Black & Decker, Briggs & Stratton) to air conditioners (GE, Fedders, Carrier, Amana).
Similarly, the Die-Hard brand was used for automotive parts and the Craftsman brand was used for tools. Again, all made by other companies (Johnson Controls, Exide, Skil, Black & Decker, Stanley, Chamberlain, etc).
What the OP article really points to is the breakdown of Sears in Canada, which for a long time was way stronger and more stable than the American side.
Briggs & Stratton
They never made lawnmowers, but they made a lot of engines for them and other things.
They never made lawnmowers, but they made a lot of engines for them and other things.
Indeed. From the case in the article:
> Brun del Re struggled to find a fix for his relatively new Kenmore refrigerator... the compressor, made by LG, had quit.
> Brun del Re struggled to find a fix for his relatively new Kenmore refrigerator... the compressor, made by LG, had quit.
Hypothesis 1: things break down because they're cheap (and therefore must be made cheaply to be profitable), not because they're from bad brands. There aren't really any truly-awful brands; only some brands that are willing to cater to lower price-points than others, by producing cheaper (⇒ less-long-lasting) products. Holding price constant, an appliance is going to break down at pretty much the same rate no matter who you buy it from. There are no real fly-by-night manufacturers capturing more profit by making things cheaply and selling them with high margins. The market is too competitive for that.
Hypothesis 2: landlords and condo developers will buy the cheapest appliances they can when furnishing units. Thus, they'll end up buying them from the brands that offer the lowest price-points.
Take 1 and 2 together, and you might see an outsized number of complaints about appliances from certain brands breaking down, specifically from tenants of furnished homes/units; while other owners of appliances from those same brands might be confused by the claims, given that their appliances that they bought themselves (at more reasonable, non-bottom-of-the-barrel price points) have served them fine.
Hypothesis 2: landlords and condo developers will buy the cheapest appliances they can when furnishing units. Thus, they'll end up buying them from the brands that offer the lowest price-points.
Take 1 and 2 together, and you might see an outsized number of complaints about appliances from certain brands breaking down, specifically from tenants of furnished homes/units; while other owners of appliances from those same brands might be confused by the claims, given that their appliances that they bought themselves (at more reasonable, non-bottom-of-the-barrel price points) have served them fine.
>The market is too competitive for that.
You're missing someone wanting to extract maximum money from a previously well viewed brand by cutting corners. Kenmore is, for example, owned by Sears which had reasons to maximize short term money.
You're missing someone wanting to extract maximum money from a previously well viewed brand by cutting corners. Kenmore is, for example, owned by Sears which had reasons to maximize short term money.
As far as I'm concerned if a brand is willing to tarnish their reputation by building cheap crap, they deserve the stigma that comes from it. I don't mind paying a premium for certainty in the longevity of what I'm buying.
In the US, websites like repairclinic and partselect have helped me save thousands of dollars in expenses on busted refrigerator and dishwasher. The first time I opened up that dishwasher was an eye opener. Cheap doesn't even begin to describe that piece of garbage. This was a 1000+ dollar whirlpool crap. Similar story with the Frigidaire refrigerator.
What is confusing to me is the sheer number of oddly shaped parts that seem to work interchangeably with LG, Whirlpool, Frigidaire and Kenmore appliances. The only logical explanation is that they are all the same parent company and/or all of these are made in the same factory with different labels slapped on in the end. Just a speculation since I never really researched this.
The only logical explanation is that they are all the same parent company and/or all of these are made in the same factory with different labels slapped on in the end.
You are absolutely correct. No single company actually makes all the parts in one appliance, and even if all the brands are owned by the same company, it will tend to use the same designs from that companies that make the individual components. The same reason you see (the same!) Bosch parts in a lot of different European cars, for example.
You are absolutely correct. No single company actually makes all the parts in one appliance, and even if all the brands are owned by the same company, it will tend to use the same designs from that companies that make the individual components. The same reason you see (the same!) Bosch parts in a lot of different European cars, for example.
I was amazed when my mom’s garage door opener broke to learn that they’re almost all the same inside and made by Chamberlain.
I recommend you all remove the metal cover every 5-10 years and grease the nylon gears with marine grease.
Once they dry out, the gears turn to snow.
Also spray lithium/Teflon grease to the rollers and other moving parts.
Overhaul costs about $60 in parts and an afternoon.
I recommend you all remove the metal cover every 5-10 years and grease the nylon gears with marine grease.
Once they dry out, the gears turn to snow.
Also spray lithium/Teflon grease to the rollers and other moving parts.
Overhaul costs about $60 in parts and an afternoon.
I’m I the only one who is tired of replacing my appliances and each time something broke I now just replace it with commercial equipment.
I had my vacuum sealing machine break on me (which is now a commercial one). Was nice to just call the company who instructed me to pop the hood open and we figured out what was wrong. It was just an off the shelf part at 2$ from Home Depot.
I’m replacing everything with commercial. I don’t mind if my next toaster will need me to call an electrician, I just hate the idea of replacing my things and i love to fix them. I find that commercial equipment is much easier to fix. They build them expecting it will fail and they make parts available.
The only one I have problem figuring out is dishwasher. The commercial one are very different, they are basically build to do multiple washes in a short amount of time. They also tends to leak water on the floor. So for residential use it’s not so convenient. If anyone know something I don’t, let me know. Might have to replace my 12 years old asko dishwasher soon.
I had my vacuum sealing machine break on me (which is now a commercial one). Was nice to just call the company who instructed me to pop the hood open and we figured out what was wrong. It was just an off the shelf part at 2$ from Home Depot.
I’m replacing everything with commercial. I don’t mind if my next toaster will need me to call an electrician, I just hate the idea of replacing my things and i love to fix them. I find that commercial equipment is much easier to fix. They build them expecting it will fail and they make parts available.
The only one I have problem figuring out is dishwasher. The commercial one are very different, they are basically build to do multiple washes in a short amount of time. They also tends to leak water on the floor. So for residential use it’s not so convenient. If anyone know something I don’t, let me know. Might have to replace my 12 years old asko dishwasher soon.
My new Samsung washing machine started leaking water onto my floor within a couple years of purchase. At least the Wi-Fi still worked.
> At least the Wi-Fi still worked.
Did it at least send you a message that it was leaking? Heh.
I'm a big proponent of 'dumb appliances'. The less they do, the better. All this IoT-ification of everything is madness. It just introduces points of failure, attack surfaces and privacy intrusions for no benefit for the consumer whatsoever. Oh, and they're nearly impossible to repair because everything's DRMed and microcontrollers actively prevent you from fixing things with 'unauthorized parts'.
My household still has 15 year old Maytag appliances that still work perfectly and have no DRM in them. I plan on fixing them until the day I die because I really don't want to deal with this new mess.
Did it at least send you a message that it was leaking? Heh.
I'm a big proponent of 'dumb appliances'. The less they do, the better. All this IoT-ification of everything is madness. It just introduces points of failure, attack surfaces and privacy intrusions for no benefit for the consumer whatsoever. Oh, and they're nearly impossible to repair because everything's DRMed and microcontrollers actively prevent you from fixing things with 'unauthorized parts'.
My household still has 15 year old Maytag appliances that still work perfectly and have no DRM in them. I plan on fixing them until the day I die because I really don't want to deal with this new mess.
I remember reading an article about point and shoot cameras becoming popular because most users don't adjust any settings away from defaults. I feel like appliances are the same. Ours have a ton of options on them, but only a few are used. I could literally use a washer with cold/warm/hot and that's it.
I could not agree more. I hope a market for brainless appliances remains far into the future. I would personally pay far more for appliances that have no DRM, no data collection, no intelligence of any kind.
> The less they do, the better
You are g’damned right. I like purpose-built, high quality things/tools that do one thing perfectly. TVs are another example or where this goes wrong. Irons, toasters, blenders, microwaves — all products that I will happily spend more money for the fewer features they have.
You are g’damned right. I like purpose-built, high quality things/tools that do one thing perfectly. TVs are another example or where this goes wrong. Irons, toasters, blenders, microwaves — all products that I will happily spend more money for the fewer features they have.
I was surprised that Samsung was not on the list. It must be that Samsung is not popular in Canada.
We bought the Samsung washer because it was highly rated by Consumer Reports. Boo on Consumer Reports.
Our washer was defective from the factory. It had a deformed part that leaked water on the floor. Luckily we purchased the extra warranty. Unluckily Samsung was giving us the run around about fixing the washer. We even said that we would make the repair if they sent us the part. Boo on Samsung.
Finally the store that sold us the washer replaced it and sent the defective washer back to Samsung. I wish I could praise the store (Western Appliance) - but they are sadly going out of business.
We bought the Samsung washer because it was highly rated by Consumer Reports. Boo on Consumer Reports.
Our washer was defective from the factory. It had a deformed part that leaked water on the floor. Luckily we purchased the extra warranty. Unluckily Samsung was giving us the run around about fixing the washer. We even said that we would make the repair if they sent us the part. Boo on Samsung.
Finally the store that sold us the washer replaced it and sent the defective washer back to Samsung. I wish I could praise the store (Western Appliance) - but they are sadly going out of business.
CR ranks Samsung pretty low for overall appliance reliability.
Part of the problem seems to be that nobody makes highly-reliable front-loading washers for home use.
https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/who-makes-the-mos...
Part of the problem seems to be that nobody makes highly-reliable front-loading washers for home use.
https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/who-makes-the-mos...
I still remember that Samsung fridge that lasted 2 years. 1000€. Amazing.
I see it ranked 5th in OP
I had this issue. in my case it was due to clogged up drainage. once I cleaned it out, especially around the door seal, the leaking stopped.
Our Samsung fridge's drip pan gets frozen up every couple of years and has to be defrosted or water starts collecting in the meat and vegetable drawers. They apparently used a metal heat conducting rod that was a little too short to work properly.
But sadly, no WiFi to fall back on :(
But sadly, no WiFi to fall back on :(
My family has lived in the same house for about 15 years. It was empty of appliances when we moved in. I have repaired or replaced every appliance, some multiple times, including the water heater and furnace.
Something I've learned is: There's a huge proliferation of repair info online. Folks love fixing things and blogging about it, or posting videos. And the parts aren't ridiculously hard to find.
We had one recently, where our washer was leaking water onto the floor. A handful of video's later, I figured out that we were just using too much soap, and the suds were somehow getting into some vent tube. Less soap, leaking gone.
Something I've learned is: There's a huge proliferation of repair info online. Folks love fixing things and blogging about it, or posting videos. And the parts aren't ridiculously hard to find.
We had one recently, where our washer was leaking water onto the floor. A handful of video's later, I figured out that we were just using too much soap, and the suds were somehow getting into some vent tube. Less soap, leaking gone.
Problem is it's getting hard to repair with the more electronics added to the appliance.
I have a clothes dryer that is from the 1980's. It's huge, but very simple construction. Dries clothes really well.
It suddenly stopped heating. Two new $5 natural gas solenoids from Amazon, and 20 minutes of time to swap them and I was back in business.
I have a clothes dryer that is from the 1980's. It's huge, but very simple construction. Dries clothes really well.
It suddenly stopped heating. Two new $5 natural gas solenoids from Amazon, and 20 minutes of time to swap them and I was back in business.
I love to hear other people doing this.
In the last year I've repaired the dishwasher, washer, and dryer at my rental unit, and the dishwasher at our home. These are all old and cheap units but were surprisingly fixable. Lots of videos and service manuals online.
I found all the parts I need at reliableparts.com (no affiliation) who have a location here in Vancouver, BC and who are always knowledgeable and helpful.
I spend maybe $75 in parts (total for all 4 appliances) and a cumulative 6 hours of my time. Most importantly to me, I kept these things out of the landfill.
In the last year I've repaired the dishwasher, washer, and dryer at my rental unit, and the dishwasher at our home. These are all old and cheap units but were surprisingly fixable. Lots of videos and service manuals online.
I found all the parts I need at reliableparts.com (no affiliation) who have a location here in Vancouver, BC and who are always knowledgeable and helpful.
I spend maybe $75 in parts (total for all 4 appliances) and a cumulative 6 hours of my time. Most importantly to me, I kept these things out of the landfill.
I have fixed and replaced control boards in both my Kenmore washing machine and oven. I've had to replace the duck valve in my Kitchenaid fridge (it got plugged and froze up, leaking water onto the floor).
Without online videos, I don't think I could have done a few of the repairs I did. I had to do some soldering to fix my washing machine so I can see how some people wouldn't be able to do these things.
Without online videos, I don't think I could have done a few of the repairs I did. I had to do some soldering to fix my washing machine so I can see how some people wouldn't be able to do these things.
I've found that despite Sears having its ups and downs, Sears Parts Direct is an excellent source for parts in the US.
In addition to saving money, I also save the time and inconvenience of either dragging something to a repair shop, or getting a repair service to come here. And I always make a point of getting my kids to watch and help.
And don't get me started about bike repair. ;-)
In addition to saving money, I also save the time and inconvenience of either dragging something to a repair shop, or getting a repair service to come here. And I always make a point of getting my kids to watch and help.
And don't get me started about bike repair. ;-)
Among other poor statistical methodology, it's not as though the average respondent to this poll is likely to have a reasonable sample size of appliances to compare. They're not saying "Out of the six refrigerators I own, the Kenmore breaks down most often." It's actually "I own a Kenmore refrigerator and it broke down at some point.", which is more or less entirely meaningless.
If they sampled the population to find the proportion of owners of each brand that reported their appliance breaking and compared those results it would be slightly more meaningful.
I've fixed the odd few bits and pieces over the years, and it's very satisfying. The problematic bit is normally tracking down the bit you need at a reasonable price.
Occasionally you strike lucky - I think £15 for a new door-rack for my fridge, or find a place like elementman.co.uk (they just sell replacement elements for ovens) - but quite often you find yourself squinting at a poorly photographed bit of a dishwasher from a similar model number and wondering if it's the same.
What would massively help is if all the bits were simply stamped with a unique part ID - and all these parts were listed in the manual.
You could then search for the ID and get new/refurbished/pattern replacement parts and lookup the fitting reference.
Or, when your fridge breaks, could just easily ebay all the parts that do work. Search for the model, see a list of the parts, check the ones you still have working and list.
Occasionally you strike lucky - I think £15 for a new door-rack for my fridge, or find a place like elementman.co.uk (they just sell replacement elements for ovens) - but quite often you find yourself squinting at a poorly photographed bit of a dishwasher from a similar model number and wondering if it's the same.
What would massively help is if all the bits were simply stamped with a unique part ID - and all these parts were listed in the manual.
You could then search for the ID and get new/refurbished/pattern replacement parts and lookup the fitting reference.
Or, when your fridge breaks, could just easily ebay all the parts that do work. Search for the model, see a list of the parts, check the ones you still have working and list.
Kenmore is good about that. I found replacement parts for my fridge, stove and dishwasher quite easily (repairing damage done to them). The sticker with the model number is in a standard location. Then you just look up the manual to get the part number[1]. Then buy the part[2].
For me the main problem was the expense. It was still cheap compared to a new appliance, but it's annoying to pay $50-$100 for a few bits of plastic. I didn't have much luck finding cheap parts on ebay, either.
[1]: https://www.searspartsdirect.com/ [2]: (Canadian) https://www.reliableparts.ca/
For me the main problem was the expense. It was still cheap compared to a new appliance, but it's annoying to pay $50-$100 for a few bits of plastic. I didn't have much luck finding cheap parts on ebay, either.
[1]: https://www.searspartsdirect.com/ [2]: (Canadian) https://www.reliableparts.ca/
An increasing number of brands are just that, brands. They buy product from china, slap their logo onto the product and go to market. If consumers complain of poor quality, brands look for a new OEM, but cannot do much more. Service is often outsourced to other companies making the brand incentivised even less.
This pretty much comports with my experience and impression over the last few years, which is that products in general just suck and are getting worse. It baffles me why people just spend money like crazy on stupid stuff, when just being able to work less would be of better value. I would never order a computer online not from Apple, because I'd have have little recourse if the thing was crap or DOA, and even then, Apple's products have decreased in reliability and consumer friendliness.
Imagine being a landlord, owning a few properties, and experiencing this failure rate. I wouldn't be surprised that this might affect rental prices on a huge scale.
I own just a few rental properties, but I'm constantly fixing things. Just in the last month. Delta faucet that had a plastic mixing valve, broke off. 5 hours to fix. Water damage to the vanity. While fixing the vale, noticed a year old baseboard heater in the same bathroom, that cover fell off. Exposing wiring. Possibly a deadly situation.
Electric Water Heater, died at 6 years. 7 Hours to replace. Within the last year, I also replaced a washing machine and dryer. A closet door, so poorly made, the hinge broke out. A dish washer that works, but the plastic hinge for the detergent broke. A toilet flapper replaced twice. That also has a plastic handle for flushing that also broke. And this is just one property, in the last 6 months. Most of these things originally bought at a big name orange department store.
While these appliance manufacturers might profit from selling new appliances. The losses they cause to the economy, are far greater than their profits.
The reliable options are not really available anymore, at the orange store, or the blue store.
I own just a few rental properties, but I'm constantly fixing things. Just in the last month. Delta faucet that had a plastic mixing valve, broke off. 5 hours to fix. Water damage to the vanity. While fixing the vale, noticed a year old baseboard heater in the same bathroom, that cover fell off. Exposing wiring. Possibly a deadly situation.
Electric Water Heater, died at 6 years. 7 Hours to replace. Within the last year, I also replaced a washing machine and dryer. A closet door, so poorly made, the hinge broke out. A dish washer that works, but the plastic hinge for the detergent broke. A toilet flapper replaced twice. That also has a plastic handle for flushing that also broke. And this is just one property, in the last 6 months. Most of these things originally bought at a big name orange department store.
While these appliance manufacturers might profit from selling new appliances. The losses they cause to the economy, are far greater than their profits.
The reliable options are not really available anymore, at the orange store, or the blue store.
Consumer Reports used to rate individual products and sometimes manufacturers with rankings and try to estimate TCO/repairs, but when I subscribed to the digital subscription to lookup gas water-heaters and gas tankless water-heaters, there were zero reviews. Maybe they've cut-back to just rating cars and TVs? I don't know.
Are Bosch and/or Miele any good still?
Also, Kirby vacuums eat Dyson's for breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight snacks.
Are Bosch and/or Miele any good still?
Also, Kirby vacuums eat Dyson's for breakfast, lunch, dinner and midnight snacks.
I have noticed that CR recommends Kenmore appliances higher than other reviewing sites. CR is supposed to be unbiased but I have noticed this trend over the past decade.
Also on devices that I am very familiar with and have tested for my day job, I also don’t understand their reasoning.
Besides this I continue to be a subscriber, their work on promoting consumer safety and privacy is a good thing.
Also on devices that I am very familiar with and have tested for my day job, I also don’t understand their reasoning.
Besides this I continue to be a subscriber, their work on promoting consumer safety and privacy is a good thing.
> CR recommends Kenmore appliances higher than other reviewing sites.
I’ve noticed that too, but I’m still inclined to trust Consumer Reports more than any other review site. CR has real labs, real scientists/technicians, real methodologies for their tests, and they get their funding from grants, subscribers, donations, and not from advertising.
With respect to Kenmore getting higher marks than they sometimes deserve, I think it might be because Kenmore contracts out everything they make. So for one year, in one market region (say, USA vs Canada), for one particular appliance, the appliance is fantastic but next year they’ve contracted it out to someone else and it’s awful. So my theory is that the Kenmore “brand” has far greater variation from year-to-year or region-to-region than brands that actually make their own products.
I’ve noticed that too, but I’m still inclined to trust Consumer Reports more than any other review site. CR has real labs, real scientists/technicians, real methodologies for their tests, and they get their funding from grants, subscribers, donations, and not from advertising.
With respect to Kenmore getting higher marks than they sometimes deserve, I think it might be because Kenmore contracts out everything they make. So for one year, in one market region (say, USA vs Canada), for one particular appliance, the appliance is fantastic but next year they’ve contracted it out to someone else and it’s awful. So my theory is that the Kenmore “brand” has far greater variation from year-to-year or region-to-region than brands that actually make their own products.
I used to trust Consumer Reports.
But when print became online (which I subscribed to for a few years) they added tracking to their website.
They used to have a strict no-advertising no-manufacturer-cooperation policy.
Putting google and cdn links on their website is basically compromising and selling out.
But when print became online (which I subscribed to for a few years) they added tracking to their website.
They used to have a strict no-advertising no-manufacturer-cooperation policy.
Putting google and cdn links on their website is basically compromising and selling out.
The point of a "no-advertising no-manufacturer-cooperation policy" is to prevent conflicts of interest with regards to the review content. I fail to see how putting google/cdn links on their website does that. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "compromising and selling out"?
So imagine this:
- someone subscribes to consumer reports as a disinterested third party.
- he starts investigating midsized cars
- every advertisement he sees after leaving cu is for midsized cars.
I think giving advertisers and manufacturers access to the paying customers of consumer reports is a conflict of interest.
If they are getting money only from the customers, what possible reason would they have to put googletagmanager links throughout the site (among others)?
- someone subscribes to consumer reports as a disinterested third party.
- he starts investigating midsized cars
- every advertisement he sees after leaving cu is for midsized cars.
I think giving advertisers and manufacturers access to the paying customers of consumer reports is a conflict of interest.
If they are getting money only from the customers, what possible reason would they have to put googletagmanager links throughout the site (among others)?
>If they are getting money only from the customers, what possible reason would they have to put googletagmanager links throughout the site (among others)?
I think you're being too cynical here. It's possible that they found that GTM was the best "tag manager" for their needs. The only other "tag manager" I know of is adobe, and they don't even have pricing listed, which makes me think they're pretty expensive as opposed to google which is free. I'm not aware of any program where google pays sites to have gtm/ga installed on their sites, so I doubt they're making money off of it.
I think you're being too cynical here. It's possible that they found that GTM was the best "tag manager" for their needs. The only other "tag manager" I know of is adobe, and they don't even have pricing listed, which makes me think they're pretty expensive as opposed to google which is free. I'm not aware of any program where google pays sites to have gtm/ga installed on their sites, so I doubt they're making money off of it.
I'm not trying to be cynical, but I am pointing out their behavior.
The example I gave was not complete. They load adobe too (through demdex). Actually, when I unblock their page, I see googletagmanager.com, demdex.net (which is adobe) and monetat.net.
Their privacy policy both explains that they don't accept money from advertisers, yet it also explains how the advertisers can target you and how to (laboriously) opt-out with each advertiser.
There is also an Ad choices link at the bottom of their main page.
The example I gave was not complete. They load adobe too (through demdex). Actually, when I unblock their page, I see googletagmanager.com, demdex.net (which is adobe) and monetat.net.
Their privacy policy both explains that they don't accept money from advertisers, yet it also explains how the advertisers can target you and how to (laboriously) opt-out with each advertiser.
There is also an Ad choices link at the bottom of their main page.
Miele is among the best, in my experience. Great value and longevity.
There was a vacuum repair tech AMA on reddit many years back. That post was insanely popular. People are hungry for this type of information (if it's actually honest).
He too was a big fan of Miele (for vacuums).
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1pe2bd/iama_vacuum_re...
He too was a big fan of Miele (for vacuums).
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1pe2bd/iama_vacuum_re...
Bosch quality is still very good.
+1 for Bosch. Their service/repair documentation (eg. [0]) is especially fantastic.
[0] https://www.frontloadbearings.com/bosch-800-plus-series-dish...
[0] https://www.frontloadbearings.com/bosch-800-plus-series-dish...
"For engineers, by engineers" if you will.
Only if they are made in Germany, like washer, dryer and dishwasher.
Avoid their, made in China, microwaves and vacuum cleaners like a plague, speaking from personal experience.
Avoid their, made in China, microwaves and vacuum cleaners like a plague, speaking from personal experience.
Odd list of appliance makers, Kenmore has their items built by GE, Whirlpool, Frigidaire, and Roper[0].
That is one of the difficulty facing consumers in that you might think you are buying from a better brand but in many cases you are not.
[0]https://dengarden.com/appliances/How-to-Identify-your-Kenmor...
That is one of the difficulty facing consumers in that you might think you are buying from a better brand but in many cases you are not.
[0]https://dengarden.com/appliances/How-to-Identify-your-Kenmor...
Meanwhile, the ancient Maytag fridge in our lab has been going for probably 20 years without fault (fingers crossed). I know there’s probably some survivorship bias, but it really does feel like appliances aren’t built to last anymore.
My dad has a 40-year-old puke yellow Kenmoore refrigerator and 35-year-old Maytag washer & dryer.
There's 2 axises of goods to think about that differ wildly:
1. the specific brand and model - some models may have regressions or design defects
2. the model year, manufacturing date and location - quality, reliability and cost-cutting measures vary with revision, manufacturing experience and who put it together (QA/QC doesn't catch every possible contingency)
There's 2 axises of goods to think about that differ wildly:
1. the specific brand and model - some models may have regressions or design defects
2. the model year, manufacturing date and location - quality, reliability and cost-cutting measures vary with revision, manufacturing experience and who put it together (QA/QC doesn't catch every possible contingency)
Does it follow all current environmental and efficiency standards and regulations?
Is it better to have one machine that does not follow regulations, or throw away four onto the landfill, that does?
It's not about throwing out the old. The question is "why are they not making them like they used to?" And the answer is "because people that worry about the environment lobbied for regulations that make it very hard or impossible to do so". Every 5 years world population increases by 400 million people. They want refrigerators.
The answer to that question is less clear than you seem to expect. In terms of total energy use, it’s almost certain that a ten-year refrigerator should be replaced, for example. For something like a washing machine, it’s probably similar although amount of use obviously factors into it.
> In terms of total energy use, it’s almost certain that a ten-year refrigerator should be replaced, for example.
Argh! This is such BS! I'm so sick of hearing this. My parents had a 30+ year old fridge they replaced recently. The energuide sticker on the old one said it's total annual power usage was only marginally less than their brand new one. You'll almost never make up the cost of replacing something based on power usage alone unless you're starting off really inefficient, or power costs a ton. Refrigerators have gotten better in the last 30 years, but they're not computers, they don't double in efficiency/performance every other year (which isn't true of computers anymore either). The math was probably all worked out in the 60's and it's been marginal gains from material science improvements ever since.
Most appliances aren't that complicated. Fridges are insulated boxes with a compressor and a thermocouple. If you read the reliability reports from consumer reports, you'll find that the simple (cheap) fridges all have top marks in reliability. All the fancy ones, it's all their fancy parts that break.
I have never understood why people just buy the idea that a major appliance that is 10 years old is so inefficient that you should replace it without consideration.
Argh! This is such BS! I'm so sick of hearing this. My parents had a 30+ year old fridge they replaced recently. The energuide sticker on the old one said it's total annual power usage was only marginally less than their brand new one. You'll almost never make up the cost of replacing something based on power usage alone unless you're starting off really inefficient, or power costs a ton. Refrigerators have gotten better in the last 30 years, but they're not computers, they don't double in efficiency/performance every other year (which isn't true of computers anymore either). The math was probably all worked out in the 60's and it's been marginal gains from material science improvements ever since.
Most appliances aren't that complicated. Fridges are insulated boxes with a compressor and a thermocouple. If you read the reliability reports from consumer reports, you'll find that the simple (cheap) fridges all have top marks in reliability. All the fancy ones, it's all their fancy parts that break.
I have never understood why people just buy the idea that a major appliance that is 10 years old is so inefficient that you should replace it without consideration.
I have never understood why people just buy the idea that a major appliance that is 10 years old is so inefficient that you should replace it without consideration.
Never underestimate the power of corporate propaganda.
Never underestimate the power of corporate propaganda.
Now we need a system to report which doctors lose the most patients. The amount of information asymmetry in healthcare, bolstered by regulations and justified by endless litigation, is difficult to navigate as a consumer.
I have a feeling that if that statistic existed today, Asian doctors would be shown in an unfair light since the start of the year in many cities. Context and nuance is easy to lose.
A lot of these brands have nothing to do with the manufacturing anymore. They just rent out their name.
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This is why I'm grateful for the Consumer Guarantees Act, which puts retailers and manufacturers on the hook for fit-for-purpose repairs. Saying "one year and a day, so buy a new one" doesn't cut it.
Looks like stats are basically a reflection of most frequently bought brands. No one reported a broken Souz fridge because no one ever bought one
As usual, you get what you pay for. Junk appliances are all over our stores here in Canada.
I think the biggest complainers are those that paid $2k for a fridge and still had it fail.
The other trick (more common on washing machines) is to build electronic control boards that last 5 years or less, so when the washer breaks you have to pay $500 for a new control board. Washing machines used to have mechanical controls that lasted 30 years. Now we have electronic controls with no moving parts that theoretically could last forever but they die in a couple of years, usually because of poor power supply design or overheating.
This is deliberate. The companies have figured out that customers will tolerate it and go buy a new appliance every 5 years. Every company wants that recurring revenue stream.
Why doesn't competition solve this problem? Many of the big name brands (Whirlpool, Maytag, Amana, Kitchenaid, Jennair, etc.) are all the same company now [0]. Kenmore and LG are still separate but on the whole there's very little competition. The government should never have allowed this degree of consolidation.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlpool_Corporation