How to avoid Amazon: guide to online shopping(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
How to avoid Amazon: guide to online shopping
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/apr/27/how-to-avoid-amazon-the-definitive-guide-to-online-shopping-without-the-retail-titan
264 comments
I do think you are missing out on how well Amazon has handled the online purchasing. Not discussing their ethics, just the service of interacting with them.
I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day. That's unreal (I'm near a distribution center, so that's not the normal 2 days stateside).
I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and an item.
They have a good system. This may be US only, but it's easy to understand why they are so popular.
I have separated myself from Google for privacy reasons (except a few things...) and try to avoid Amazon where I can and support local shops. So this isn't advocating Amazon, just pointing out that their competitors usually can't compete on returns and shipping time.
I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day. That's unreal (I'm near a distribution center, so that's not the normal 2 days stateside).
I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and an item.
They have a good system. This may be US only, but it's easy to understand why they are so popular.
I have separated myself from Google for privacy reasons (except a few things...) and try to avoid Amazon where I can and support local shops. So this isn't advocating Amazon, just pointing out that their competitors usually can't compete on returns and shipping time.
In Germany Amazon usually delivers next day. So does just about everyone else, since all it takes is packaging and getting the order to any postal carrier on the same day.
Returns are unproblematic almost everywhere since a 14 day on-questions-asked return policy for online purchases is EU law (and most online shops voluntarily extend it to 30 days). Sure, I have to package it myself, but that's no different than German Amazon.
Sure, Amazon is great, but so is almost everyone else (at least in Germany). Amazon's main advantage is only learning one interface and one set of processes for everything.
Returns are unproblematic almost everywhere since a 14 day on-questions-asked return policy for online purchases is EU law (and most online shops voluntarily extend it to 30 days). Sure, I have to package it myself, but that's no different than German Amazon.
Sure, Amazon is great, but so is almost everyone else (at least in Germany). Amazon's main advantage is only learning one interface and one set of processes for everything.
Absolutely not. Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll deliver, even before you order. Other companies tend to indicate deliveries within 1-2 days or 2-3 days if items are in stock. You never know when the cut off time is and if they ship out on Saturdays. I know that's a very hard problem to solve logistically but as a customer I don't care.
I just ordered electronics online in Germany, not via Amazon. It was in stock with a reputable stores. Still, my order from 9am got shipped two days later. Maybe Covid related but Amazon would've shown me that before I placed the order. Returns are fully automated with Amazon, very few other online retailers in Germany have that.
Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on that, others very rarely do.
I'd love to get away from Amazon and I'm not even that price sensitive. But until a shop matches their customer service, I'll stay with Amazon for 99% of my orders.
I just ordered electronics online in Germany, not via Amazon. It was in stock with a reputable stores. Still, my order from 9am got shipped two days later. Maybe Covid related but Amazon would've shown me that before I placed the order. Returns are fully automated with Amazon, very few other online retailers in Germany have that.
Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on that, others very rarely do.
I'd love to get away from Amazon and I'm not even that price sensitive. But until a shop matches their customer service, I'll stay with Amazon for 99% of my orders.
Unfortunately I have to agree with this view. I'm in the UK and I've ordered from many vendors, including food from brick and mortar shops which offer the option to purchase online.
Although in the majority of cases things went well, the two things that really set Amazon apart is (A) the fact that it acts like an arbiter in favour of the buyer (which I argue it should be the standard anyway) and (B) it doesn't haggle or makes it difficult to return faulty or products I'm unhappy with for whatever reason. Again, though I didn't need to return many products for the most part, when I did need to do that a number of sellers made it cumbersome for me to do so.
For a more recent example, I've ordered food from Morrisons online (a UK supermaker chain) and one of the products was not in there. There was no easy way to get it fixed somehow (like a partial refund or something), which reminded me once again why I buy on Amazon even though I'd very much prefer not to.
Although in the majority of cases things went well, the two things that really set Amazon apart is (A) the fact that it acts like an arbiter in favour of the buyer (which I argue it should be the standard anyway) and (B) it doesn't haggle or makes it difficult to return faulty or products I'm unhappy with for whatever reason. Again, though I didn't need to return many products for the most part, when I did need to do that a number of sellers made it cumbersome for me to do so.
For a more recent example, I've ordered food from Morrisons online (a UK supermaker chain) and one of the products was not in there. There was no easy way to get it fixed somehow (like a partial refund or something), which reminded me once again why I buy on Amazon even though I'd very much prefer not to.
> Absolutely not. Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll deliver, even before you order. Other companies tend to indicate deliveries within 1-2 days or 2-3 days if items are in stock. You never know when the cut off time is and if they ship out on Saturdays. I know that's a very hard problem to solve logistically but as a customer I don't care.
Except in NL ... that's exactly what the other stores do when they say "order before 22:00 and have it delivered the next day!", almost entirely without doing the things that make people dislike Amazon.
> Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on that, others very rarely do.
We have a 30-day "change your mind" policy required by law, I thought that was a EU policy, but I guess it's Dutch ..
Except in NL ... that's exactly what the other stores do when they say "order before 22:00 and have it delivered the next day!", almost entirely without doing the things that make people dislike Amazon.
> Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on that, others very rarely do.
We have a 30-day "change your mind" policy required by law, I thought that was a EU policy, but I guess it's Dutch ..
14 days is required by the EU rule (Distance Selling regulation), the Dutch can extend that in their own law.
> Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique.
The 14 day period to return something you've purchased online (or by post or by phone), starting after receipt of the goods, is EU law.
Choosing local/national, ethical, tax-paying retailers is easily worth a very occasional inconvenience for me. Using Amazon pushes that inconvenience onto the warehouse staff, and whoever the government's current spending cuts are affecting.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
The 14 day period to return something you've purchased online (or by post or by phone), starting after receipt of the goods, is EU law.
Choosing local/national, ethical, tax-paying retailers is easily worth a very occasional inconvenience for me. Using Amazon pushes that inconvenience onto the warehouse staff, and whoever the government's current spending cuts are affecting.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
Not in my experience in Germany:
Ordered items on the 24th (a Friday) and they said normal delivery was expected on the 30th (next Thursday) and premium would show up on the 27th (next Monday). Didn’t want to pay for Prime, so went with the standard shipping. Received the items the next day on the 25th (Saturday).
I’m not complaining, but I’ll never trust the Prime/premium shipping again which now just feels like a scam.
Ordered items on the 24th (a Friday) and they said normal delivery was expected on the 30th (next Thursday) and premium would show up on the 27th (next Monday). Didn’t want to pay for Prime, so went with the standard shipping. Received the items the next day on the 25th (Saturday).
I’m not complaining, but I’ll never trust the Prime/premium shipping again which now just feels like a scam.
On of the major online shops here, bol.com, has a thing for most of their products "Order before 23:59, in your house tomorrow." Generally the other bigger Dutch online shops do the same. Even during current busy times, I've not had them fall short on that.
With the returns, isn't it an EU requirement that they take a return no-questions within something like 2 weeks?
With the returns, isn't it an EU requirement that they take a return no-questions within something like 2 weeks?
> Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll deliver, even before you order.
Except when it's not reliable and it arrives 2 days later. Or, in the case of the used book I ordered a while ago, there's no indication of when or how it'll be delivered and only at the start of delivery it suddenly tells you that it'll take at least a month to ship because the product is on the other side of the planet.
Amazon is usually pretty good, but even with Prime it rarely takes less than 3-4 days to deliver, most local shops are at least a day faster. And with those I can be sure they won't sell me fake products mixed with genuine ones.
Except when it's not reliable and it arrives 2 days later. Or, in the case of the used book I ordered a while ago, there's no indication of when or how it'll be delivered and only at the start of delivery it suddenly tells you that it'll take at least a month to ship because the product is on the other side of the planet.
Amazon is usually pretty good, but even with Prime it rarely takes less than 3-4 days to deliver, most local shops are at least a day faster. And with those I can be sure they won't sell me fake products mixed with genuine ones.
This is maybe true for items shipped by Amazon itself but Amazon nowadays is a marketplace. I twice ordered something where it said 5-7 days, turns out it's shipped from China and took several weeks to arrive. The not-on-stock-despite-saying-so with other shops happens but not very often in my experience.
> In Germany Amazon usually delivers next day. So does just about everyone else
YMMV. I order Amazon/Others about 70/30. The vast majority of shops I order from have longer delivery times, 3-4 days from the time of ordering is what I’m used to.
And then there is Amazon Logistics which recently started becoming a thing in Lübeck. They are on the level of DHL and sometimes surpass them, with other stores you sometimes have to live with the horror of Hermes or DPD. Hermes and DPD are high-risk carriers that only usually deliver and if they do, who knows when. DHL at least is good most of the time. Amazon Logistics is super fast, usually has live GPS tracking and when someone couldn’t find my entrance yesterday (it’s a bit complicated), I got a call, explained where exactly it is, and they set a marker on their internal app for my address.
YMMV. I order Amazon/Others about 70/30. The vast majority of shops I order from have longer delivery times, 3-4 days from the time of ordering is what I’m used to.
And then there is Amazon Logistics which recently started becoming a thing in Lübeck. They are on the level of DHL and sometimes surpass them, with other stores you sometimes have to live with the horror of Hermes or DPD. Hermes and DPD are high-risk carriers that only usually deliver and if they do, who knows when. DHL at least is good most of the time. Amazon Logistics is super fast, usually has live GPS tracking and when someone couldn’t find my entrance yesterday (it’s a bit complicated), I got a call, explained where exactly it is, and they set a marker on their internal app for my address.
And while Amazon also still uses DPD or Hermes, if their delivery doesn't work or they brought it to a shop kilometers away, you can just get a replacement from Amazon and will get a refund for the other item once it's back with them. Other sellers threaten to block you for that. I get that it incurs an extra cost on them but I just don't have to time to spend an hour just to pick up a delivery even though I was home all day.
Not in my experience. Most shops ship with DHL, so I order delivery to one of my Packstationen. If DHL brings it into a Postsubsidiary or somewhere inconvenient I just leave it there until it's sent back and reorder.
Interesting how these things have a variable performance between countries -- in the UK DPD is one of the better couriers (informing you of a 1 hour slot when delivery will happen, including a mini-map and 'you are delivery 46, van currently doing delivery 24' info on the status page) whereas Amazon Logistics' rep is somewhere between 'merely OK' and 'worse than average'.
> including a mini-map and 'you are delivery 46, van currently doing delivery 24' info on the status page
Funny, with Amazon Logistics it was the first time I ever saw such a feature :D
Funny, with Amazon Logistics it was the first time I ever saw such a feature :D
I also think the main differences are rooted in the different countries the commenters come from.
Many of the the features commenters in the US seem to value in amazon are mandated by law e.g. in Germany, and thus are provided by all domestic online retailers. This levels the playing field. I have had zero problems with returning orders for many years, most deliveries leave the shops at the day of my orders and so on, and I never order from amazon. The most recent anectode: Ordered bike parts from a german online retailer at sunday evening, packages will arrive in a few hours.
Many of the the features commenters in the US seem to value in amazon are mandated by law e.g. in Germany, and thus are provided by all domestic online retailers. This levels the playing field. I have had zero problems with returning orders for many years, most deliveries leave the shops at the day of my orders and so on, and I never order from amazon. The most recent anectode: Ordered bike parts from a german online retailer at sunday evening, packages will arrive in a few hours.
Indeed. And additionally Amazon is absolutely terrible when it comes to shopping for specific product categories where details matter. Bike components are a classic example. In Germany you'll find a much larger product selection (with unquestionable origins) and better prices at specialised shops like Rose Bikes or Bike Components.
Meanwhile Amazon's listings for the same products with specific attributes are a giant mess - it's basically wild west since any seller can contribute to the product listing resulting in inconsistent attributes, unknown product versions and often multiple listings for the same or slightly different article. This also applies to other categories like outdoor clothing or audio equipment. For most product categories there are better options available.
And don't get me wrong - I'm a happy Amazon prime subscriber and enjoy their almost flawless fulfilling process, but these days I seem to only use Amazon for inexpensive, general, everyday items.
Meanwhile Amazon's listings for the same products with specific attributes are a giant mess - it's basically wild west since any seller can contribute to the product listing resulting in inconsistent attributes, unknown product versions and often multiple listings for the same or slightly different article. This also applies to other categories like outdoor clothing or audio equipment. For most product categories there are better options available.
And don't get me wrong - I'm a happy Amazon prime subscriber and enjoy their almost flawless fulfilling process, but these days I seem to only use Amazon for inexpensive, general, everyday items.
Their search system is so abysmally bad - it's absolutely staggering how they can sell AI tech on AWS and keep looking in the mirror ... (don't know if they do that, though)
Such experience is fairly common in Poland, where we don't have PL Amazon at all (we can however, order from Amazon.de).
Often we can get much better prices in Polish shops. Moreover, PL shoppers use shopping comparison tools. Our top marketplace (Allegro) introduced a much cheaper version of prime two years ago and it works great. The whole e-commerce is much more decentralized, there is more competition and Amazon is not planning to enter this market at all - it would have a hard time competing.
> I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day.
I do see how this is alluring but I find the urge to receive an item as soon as possible as a sign for immature impatience - if there is no actual reason for the hurry. So, I refuse to give in to it and happily wait 2 or 3 days.
> I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and an item.
Well, in case of other shops the hassle usually isn't much more either. Either the franking is provided as a decal or I'll have to print it. Then I bring it to a Packstation/store (there are 100 within 3 miles).
Regarding the packaging. I always feel a little guilty for sending something back and take pride in really taking care not just of the item but also of its packaging before returning it. I don't like other people cleaning after me - even if they make money of it.
Also my experience before quitting Amazon cold turkey was very mixed. I had several bad experiences with their service. Intransparent origin of shipment, forgeries, systematically unreliable reviews, items in bad shape, ... most shops treat me better.
I do see how this is alluring but I find the urge to receive an item as soon as possible as a sign for immature impatience - if there is no actual reason for the hurry. So, I refuse to give in to it and happily wait 2 or 3 days.
> I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and an item.
Well, in case of other shops the hassle usually isn't much more either. Either the franking is provided as a decal or I'll have to print it. Then I bring it to a Packstation/store (there are 100 within 3 miles).
Regarding the packaging. I always feel a little guilty for sending something back and take pride in really taking care not just of the item but also of its packaging before returning it. I don't like other people cleaning after me - even if they make money of it.
Also my experience before quitting Amazon cold turkey was very mixed. I had several bad experiences with their service. Intransparent origin of shipment, forgeries, systematically unreliable reviews, items in bad shape, ... most shops treat me better.
>I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day. That's unreal (I'm near a distribution center, so that's not the normal 2 days stateside).
My Amazon.co.jp order got dispatched on Friday from Yokohama and on Monday it was in my hands in southern Finland. This is something I couldn't reliably expect from a store that was within driving distance of my home.
My Amazon.co.jp order got dispatched on Friday from Yokohama and on Monday it was in my hands in southern Finland. This is something I couldn't reliably expect from a store that was within driving distance of my home.
Yea, I order from Amazon when I need it soon. When I order from other places I treat them like presents to my future self.
Most items I order online at other stores in NL arrive the next day. Also, certain online clothing stores have a nearly equivalent system for returns.
Clearly, you don't require to be like Amazon for that kind of service.
Clearly, you don't require to be like Amazon for that kind of service.
thalia is running a lot of dodgy business practices focused on strong-arming smaller print-shops (see German Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_B%C3%BCcher#Kritik), I'm really fond of zvab.com where you can order from many if not most antiquarian bookshops of Europe. Cheap used books abound for 2-5 euros per book, a lot of them with free shipping depending on the shop.
EDIT: TIL: zvab is abebooks, which in turn is a subsidiary of... amazon. All roads lead to Rome.
EDIT: TIL: zvab is abebooks, which in turn is a subsidiary of... amazon. All roads lead to Rome.
didn't know that. I just like large book stores, so I habitually feel like supporting, and Thalia is the best we have here - nothing like Dussmann in Berlin, though :/
zvab looks amazing (no pun intended)! will order something right away.
zvab looks amazing (no pun intended)! will order something right away.
Germany is, I think, fairly exceptional in this case.
Living in Ireland, Irish stores can be very hit and miss. Amazon UK is often faster, very often cheaper, has cheaper shipping (even though it's coming from UK), has cheaper returns (returns through the post in Ireland are extortionate)
I'd honestly say in some ways its gotten worst over the years, probably from competition from UK retailers. If you are buying in big quantities, it's best to go with a big company, and they aren't in Ireland. If you are ordering small quantities, that's not enough to keep a company afloat.
It's so bad, when it comes to Electronics, Pet supplies or similar, it's often best to do exactly what you do, and order from Germany and deal with the language barrier and lack of credit card support.
Brexit will be interesting, but I see Amazon had announced in the last few days it's opening distribution centers in Ireland, so i guess it's inevitable that things are going that way.
Living in Ireland, Irish stores can be very hit and miss. Amazon UK is often faster, very often cheaper, has cheaper shipping (even though it's coming from UK), has cheaper returns (returns through the post in Ireland are extortionate)
I'd honestly say in some ways its gotten worst over the years, probably from competition from UK retailers. If you are buying in big quantities, it's best to go with a big company, and they aren't in Ireland. If you are ordering small quantities, that's not enough to keep a company afloat.
It's so bad, when it comes to Electronics, Pet supplies or similar, it's often best to do exactly what you do, and order from Germany and deal with the language barrier and lack of credit card support.
Brexit will be interesting, but I see Amazon had announced in the last few days it's opening distribution centers in Ireland, so i guess it's inevitable that things are going that way.
> and lack of credit card support.
German (physical) shops and restaurants hold a very special disregard for card payment but online it's rarely an issue. Either CC or PayPal (which I also try to avoid) will be provided.
German (physical) shops and restaurants hold a very special disregard for card payment but online it's rarely an issue. Either CC or PayPal (which I also try to avoid) will be provided.
In my experience there is a very observable correlation between online stores per capita and quality of service. More stores -> more competition -> better service. Here's a map with numbers of online stores in some EU countries: https://www.expandeco.com/en
No idea where they got the numbers from, but seems reasonable at glance.
Ordering from Apple or Samsung directly, as suggested by the article, even is something to avoid, unless you like paying a premium (usually you can find their products about 10-30% cheaper somewhere else).
However, if you are ordering a premium product, ring them and do an assisted sale. This works particularly well if there is something you are unsure of.
For example, when buying a TV I was asking about a dumb panel with the latest and greatest display technology in a particularly small bezelless format. They couldn't do it (which I already knew) but sold me the smart and slightly larger TV for nearly half its official price with a "free" 5y rtm warranty. Pretty much the same price as I'd pay elsewhere for an "inferior" panel.
And slightly more recently I purchased a new laptop. The price was the same as everywhere else (£2k) but I got a fancy tilt/rotate stylus, 3y care, expediated delivery, and a windows home -> pro upgrade code (it was weird it didn't have it as default tbh) all for free.
Notably I'm not asking for the discounts and extras, I'm asking normal sales questions as though I wasn't able to read the manuals online.
On the other hand, there are plenty of things I rang up about and didn't purchase because it was better elsewhere. On the whole they seem to have been more mid to bottom range items, but I don't really know the internals of these companies.
For example, when buying a TV I was asking about a dumb panel with the latest and greatest display technology in a particularly small bezelless format. They couldn't do it (which I already knew) but sold me the smart and slightly larger TV for nearly half its official price with a "free" 5y rtm warranty. Pretty much the same price as I'd pay elsewhere for an "inferior" panel.
And slightly more recently I purchased a new laptop. The price was the same as everywhere else (£2k) but I got a fancy tilt/rotate stylus, 3y care, expediated delivery, and a windows home -> pro upgrade code (it was weird it didn't have it as default tbh) all for free.
Notably I'm not asking for the discounts and extras, I'm asking normal sales questions as though I wasn't able to read the manuals online.
On the other hand, there are plenty of things I rang up about and didn't purchase because it was better elsewhere. On the whole they seem to have been more mid to bottom range items, but I don't really know the internals of these companies.
Buying Apple products on Amazon significantly exposes you to counterfeit products. That's where the "discounts" happen.
That's not true anymore.
Some time ago Amazon made changes to the way they sell Apple hardware. It is my understanding that Apple gave its blessing to let Amazon sell their products directly with the requirement that third party sellers aren't allowed to do so anymore. In my opinion that's a welcome change.
Some time ago Amazon made changes to the way they sell Apple hardware. It is my understanding that Apple gave its blessing to let Amazon sell their products directly with the requirement that third party sellers aren't allowed to do so anymore. In my opinion that's a welcome change.
Curious, where does one get products cheaper than Apple.com?
(I believe Apple controls the prices third party resellers can set)
I've seen the occasional markdown on Amazon and MacMall but Apple's prices are generally pretty standard.
I've seen the occasional markdown on Amazon and MacMall but Apple's prices are generally pretty standard.
When shopping for a new computer recently, prices were the same across the board for the most part. If you qualify for the educational discount, Apple was significantly cheaper. If you didn't there were some sites that tended to have credit card portals or gift card reseller sites that offered more of a discount. Even when a portal says certain products are excluded they tend to still come through with the automated discount.
Also depending on your credit card you could get a better deal through buying your own gift cards. I currently have five percent off on grocery store purchases, so effectively any gift cards the grocery store sells are five percent discounts to the merchant. Best buy, target, Amazon are nearly always there. ITunes usually is but I don't ever recall seeing apple.
Also depending on your credit card you could get a better deal through buying your own gift cards. I currently have five percent off on grocery store purchases, so effectively any gift cards the grocery store sells are five percent discounts to the merchant. Best buy, target, Amazon are nearly always there. ITunes usually is but I don't ever recall seeing apple.
Here in Australia, for example, you can buy grey imports (i.e. not imported by Apple, Samsung etc) for much cheaper.
With some brands you only get a store warranty, but sometimes you might even get full manufacturer international warranty.
With some brands you only get a store warranty, but sometimes you might even get full manufacturer international warranty.
Target, B&H, and BestBuy routinely discount Apple stuff.
If you have insight into Apple’s product cycle, they usually discount the price to resellers a few weeks before they release a product and they are motivated to clear stuff out. I used to pay for college by taking advantage of that in the 90s!
If you have insight into Apple’s product cycle, they usually discount the price to resellers a few weeks before they release a product and they are motivated to clear stuff out. I used to pay for college by taking advantage of that in the 90s!
Microcenter on most items.
I just ordered a brand new Apple Macbook Air with 16 gigs for my daughter... I can't even get Apple to charge my card and ship the thing. Their estimate is mid-May... but I haven't seen any traction on it at all. It's as if I didn't even order it.
Germany, right? I bet you have a lot of local competition. In bay area i cant' even order IPA (first aid antiseptic) anywhere at all.
The reason you can't buy IPA is because it's banned for sale in California due to VOC laws.
Same with Ethanol/Denatured-Alcohol products. Amazon actually complies the law whereas other out of state distributors don't. Ebay is your friend there. It's how I got the stuff.
Same with Ethanol/Denatured-Alcohol products. Amazon actually complies the law whereas other out of state distributors don't. Ebay is your friend there. It's how I got the stuff.
You can get IPA from chemical suppliers. I bought from these guys https://www.stellarchemicalcorp.com/product-page/isopropyl-a... They shipped to my place in the East bay.
Price has unsurprisingly gone up a bit since I bought Mar 22.
Price has unsurprisingly gone up a bit since I bought Mar 22.
Covid has brought some competition. Apart from that, there's no competitor to Amazon in Germany. There are larger shops for single categories (books or clothes) but no generalist seller like Amazon anywhere.
I completely agree. I don't understand why people use amazon so much. Generally I find them more expensive and for many things they only have inferior products and much less selection (not even speaking of finding the right things).
Some other ones which are excellent:
Bike24.de Alternate.de Bikester.se
Some other ones which are excellent:
Bike24.de Alternate.de Bikester.se
I know the German market is not relevant for most HN readers. But please don't recommend thalia.de, there are enough other options. thalia not only has unorthodox business practices:
https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-709746.html
but they also boycott books they don't like: https://philosophia-perennis.com/2017/09/12/buchhandel-boyko...
In my opinion a book shop should not do this.
but they also boycott books they don't like: https://philosophia-perennis.com/2017/09/12/buchhandel-boyko...
In my opinion a book shop should not do this.
I used to live in Germany and now I moved back to India (where I am came from)
Amazon atleast in India is better than anything else.
It's very difficult to source things which are not common place goods.
For example, if I want to buy 3 phase, 1 horsepower motor, 4 pole motor AC induction motor. There would be no websites who directly sell, and if exists then it will charge rediculous price.
Most B2B purchase in India requires going through IndiaMart, where you post requirement (that too can't upload photo, has very small description limit)
Then vendors will hammer your phone with useless calls, asking the details you already offered and no one really replies to text. They don't understand not everyone wants to be on call.
There are rediculous number of vendors who import from China and live around a port city and have goods stocked in their wharehouse, shipping all over India. And they lie about being manufacturer, I am pretty sure they aren't even inserting a bolt in the final product.
And either companies are too big where they don't care about a guy who wants 1 motor, or they are too small that they don't even know how to sell online.
Amazon expanded the available products which can be bought without BS at competitive rates but it too missed niche category stuff.
For example, I can't buy lithium iron phosphate battery online at the moment, few websites appear in Google but they ask you to contact them.
Amazon atleast in India is better than anything else.
It's very difficult to source things which are not common place goods.
For example, if I want to buy 3 phase, 1 horsepower motor, 4 pole motor AC induction motor. There would be no websites who directly sell, and if exists then it will charge rediculous price.
Most B2B purchase in India requires going through IndiaMart, where you post requirement (that too can't upload photo, has very small description limit)
Then vendors will hammer your phone with useless calls, asking the details you already offered and no one really replies to text. They don't understand not everyone wants to be on call.
There are rediculous number of vendors who import from China and live around a port city and have goods stocked in their wharehouse, shipping all over India. And they lie about being manufacturer, I am pretty sure they aren't even inserting a bolt in the final product.
And either companies are too big where they don't care about a guy who wants 1 motor, or they are too small that they don't even know how to sell online.
Amazon expanded the available products which can be bought without BS at competitive rates but it too missed niche category stuff.
For example, I can't buy lithium iron phosphate battery online at the moment, few websites appear in Google but they ask you to contact them.
I assume you're German? I'm in Northern Europe and most products I order online come through German retailers: music equipment, clothes, outdoor stuff, bike parts, ... I guess Germany has a large enough economy to support larger retailers, and those retailers put in some effort to attract customers beyond their borders. I think the problems with e-retail in Europe have been traditionally of a practical nature, such as dealing with multiple languages and handling delivery/returns across borders.
I very sporadically order from Amazon if I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere, but their website has been so infested with spam and sponsored results that it's hard to find a genuine product these days.
I very sporadically order from Amazon if I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere, but their website has been so infested with spam and sponsored results that it's hard to find a genuine product these days.
I'm using Amazon.de as an interface for VAT excluded purchases. Many smaller shops have better prices but don't want to deal with the extra paperwork to sell without VAT to businesses outside the country. However it doesn't work for items sold by Amazon itself as they will ship it from the nearest distribution center (it needs to cross the border to be VAT free in my case).
For bike equipement, both bike24.com and bike-component.de both are great! Good selection, great customer service and fast shipping, even now.. Amazon can't compete with that.
In general German eshop are the best (shopping from France).
In general German eshop are the best (shopping from France).
Stores often sell cheaper on Amazon than on their own storefront. The 15€ ball I ordered on Amazon would have been 20€ if bought directly from the sellers website.
On the other hand, I can find almost any item cheaper in some other webshop than Amazon if I look for it. The Amazon tax does push prices up.
I tried shopping Newegg recently (BC). Newegg's online customer service made Amazon's look positively erudite, and in addition Newegg's return policy is terrible by comparison. I still haven't received an item that I ordered 7 weeks ago (shipping was not advertised as being particularly slow), and I still haven't been refunded for another item that I returned 2 weeks ago. Amazon gets that if you can't touch the item in store, there should be a no-fault return policy (and yes, I know that returns are environmentally unfriendly, etc).
I tried to shop Jet (before they were acquired) and I found the search / shop experience had too much friction. Amazon's UI has plenty of annoyances, but they've made it _real_ easy to get something into your cart and check out.
On the other hand, all of my music studio purchases I make at Sweetwater. Great customer service, free shipping, will price match if you ask, and frictionless returns.
IMO Amazon is vulnerable to good competitors, but the emphasis is on good. I can tolerate a small shipping fee, and I don't need next day or two day shipping (although it's nice). On the other hand if you make it hard for me to shop, customer service sucks, or I have to jump through hoops to return something, I'll go back to Amazon.
I tried to shop Jet (before they were acquired) and I found the search / shop experience had too much friction. Amazon's UI has plenty of annoyances, but they've made it _real_ easy to get something into your cart and check out.
On the other hand, all of my music studio purchases I make at Sweetwater. Great customer service, free shipping, will price match if you ask, and frictionless returns.
IMO Amazon is vulnerable to good competitors, but the emphasis is on good. I can tolerate a small shipping fee, and I don't need next day or two day shipping (although it's nice). On the other hand if you make it hard for me to shop, customer service sucks, or I have to jump through hoops to return something, I'll go back to Amazon.
Sweetwater has never let me down in 20 years. It’s been quite sometime since I’ve used Crutchfield but I’ve always had a very high opinion of their customer service as well.
Had a very poor experience ordering from Ikea. Just some kitchen towels, nothing particularly interesting. Took six weeks to ship, zero updates on the site about order status, estimated delivery date came and went unceremoniously, wasn’t able to contact anyone via phone. Finally got an email out of the blue that they shipped and arrived intact the next day. Pretty much a ‘never again’ experience.
Amazon’s policies and employee treatment/relationships may need improvement or complete overhaul, but their execution at getting matter into your hands and dealing with issues is, in my experience, second to none.
Had a very poor experience ordering from Ikea. Just some kitchen towels, nothing particularly interesting. Took six weeks to ship, zero updates on the site about order status, estimated delivery date came and went unceremoniously, wasn’t able to contact anyone via phone. Finally got an email out of the blue that they shipped and arrived intact the next day. Pretty much a ‘never again’ experience.
Amazon’s policies and employee treatment/relationships may need improvement or complete overhaul, but their execution at getting matter into your hands and dealing with issues is, in my experience, second to none.
The only times I can remember having real issues with buying from Amazon is when I failed to notice that I was buying from a third-party on their site, not actually from Amazon directly. And that said, the vast majority of my (intentional) third-party purchases on Amazon have been flawless.
But, if they happen to sell what I am shopping for... Sweetwater and B&H Photo are two stores from which I have had consistently great service. I've never been to Sweetwater in person, but the physical B&H store is also a cool experience.
But, if they happen to sell what I am shopping for... Sweetwater and B&H Photo are two stores from which I have had consistently great service. I've never been to Sweetwater in person, but the physical B&H store is also a cool experience.
Sweetwater is awesome in person. Super friendly staff and they have a free arcade for the community as well as a massive slide that my nephew loves to go down.
Yep, IKEA is the worst for delivery. They farm it out to some third party service that has an ancient logistics system.
That said, they're also delivering heavy furniture. I've never ordered those types of items from Amazon so I don't know how they fare.
That said, they're also delivering heavy furniture. I've never ordered those types of items from Amazon so I don't know how they fare.
Did you order Newegg or third-party? So many stores, Newegg included, are trying to be a 'platform' or something and allow third party sellers, but it makes the buying experience awful.
Arguably the worst things about buying from Amazon all derive from third-party sellers: long shipping times (from China, generally), commingled inventory, counterfeit products, faked/swapped listings... Companies like Newegg should be explicitly doing the opposite as a competitive advantage -- yet they seem to be copying. I don't get it.
Arguably the worst things about buying from Amazon all derive from third-party sellers: long shipping times (from China, generally), commingled inventory, counterfeit products, faked/swapped listings... Companies like Newegg should be explicitly doing the opposite as a competitive advantage -- yet they seem to be copying. I don't get it.
Yeah, one of the items was third party, one was Newegg. But I agree - you can't outcompete Amazon by trying to be Amazon.
Sweetwater (who I mentioned upthread) are great because they do musical instruments (and related) and nothing else. Deep domain knowledge, rich and well organized catalog, community of music nerds, and (as far as I've noticed) no third party junk.
A Newegg could theoretically do the same for computers and peripherals. (Find me all motherboards compatible with i7 and ddr4, with usbc, blinkenlights and onboard wifi - much easier on Newegg than Amazon, but unfortunately it suffers from the aforementioned issues).
Sweetwater (who I mentioned upthread) are great because they do musical instruments (and related) and nothing else. Deep domain knowledge, rich and well organized catalog, community of music nerds, and (as far as I've noticed) no third party junk.
A Newegg could theoretically do the same for computers and peripherals. (Find me all motherboards compatible with i7 and ddr4, with usbc, blinkenlights and onboard wifi - much easier on Newegg than Amazon, but unfortunately it suffers from the aforementioned issues).
I get it. I don't like it, but I get it.
Look for a Ryzen 7 laptop with 16GB RAM from Newegg. I mean specifically check 'Newegg' as the only seller. You get two choices starting at $900.
Then uncheck 'Newegg' as the seller and sort by lowest price. You get 24 of the exact same laptop from 24 different sellers with an $80 spread in price. And that's just the cheapest 24 items. There are hundreds more. They start from $650.
For every $900 laptop Newegg sells from its own inventory, they have have to source it, receive it, photograph it, inventory it, ship it, etc. For every $700 laptop from somebody else, they have to...well, do almost nothing. Somebody they don't employ does all the rest. They just keep their web app up and running. Granted, the development of the site is expensive. But it's not expensive per item.
So they can make $50 off every $700 laptop with a minimal expense of pennies per sale. Or they can make $50 off some $900 laptops that cost them pennies + $150 labor per sale.
Look for a Ryzen 7 laptop with 16GB RAM from Newegg. I mean specifically check 'Newegg' as the only seller. You get two choices starting at $900.
Then uncheck 'Newegg' as the seller and sort by lowest price. You get 24 of the exact same laptop from 24 different sellers with an $80 spread in price. And that's just the cheapest 24 items. There are hundreds more. They start from $650.
For every $900 laptop Newegg sells from its own inventory, they have have to source it, receive it, photograph it, inventory it, ship it, etc. For every $700 laptop from somebody else, they have to...well, do almost nothing. Somebody they don't employ does all the rest. They just keep their web app up and running. Granted, the development of the site is expensive. But it's not expensive per item.
So they can make $50 off every $700 laptop with a minimal expense of pennies per sale. Or they can make $50 off some $900 laptops that cost them pennies + $150 labor per sale.
Newegg was purchased by a Chinese company in 2016 (https://www.techpowerup.com/226777/newegg-now-owned-by-chine...). I've been told their customer service has went down significantly after being acquired.
My last newegg experience was ordering parts for a computer with the free shipping option (2-10 days?). Power supply hadn't shown up 6 weeks later, so I tried to do an online support chat. Sat in a queue for 2 hours before it crashed. I called, and got a time slot for them to call me back. No one ever called. Tried again the next day, support chat was down. When I eventually got through, they said they'd file a claim with FedEx, and if FedEx agrees they'd refund me. Power supply showed up on my door a week after that. Had to repeat the process to do a return.
I'll never touch newegg again. Their own system said I never received something I paid for, and yet sorting it out took 2 months and 6 attempts contacting customer support.
I'll never touch newegg again. Their own system said I never received something I paid for, and yet sorting it out took 2 months and 6 attempts contacting customer support.
It’s not that competitors aren’t good. At end of the day, Amazon is pretty darn good.
I think we’ve started to acclimate to how good it is that we forget the old world.
I think we’ve started to acclimate to how good it is that we forget the old world.
In Canada there are some good options for certain items.
Recording gear: Long & McQuade.
Tools: Lee Valley.
Photo gear: Henry's.
Amazon provides a way for me to avoid Walmart.
Recording gear: Long & McQuade.
Tools: Lee Valley.
Photo gear: Henry's.
Amazon provides a way for me to avoid Walmart.
In the US, another amazing source for high quality tools is www.toolsforworkingwood.com Don't be put off by the archaic site design, they have amazing customer service.
Sure, Henry's is great if you like aggressive upselling.
If you want your mom n' pop shops to survive this thing consider them first. You'd be surprised how many are probably doing deliveries.
It's awfully low tech, but the local indie book shop here in Vancouver will order any book you ask for and deliver it throughout Metro Vancouver. All you need to do is call them and ask.
It's awfully low tech, but the local indie book shop here in Vancouver will order any book you ask for and deliver it throughout Metro Vancouver. All you need to do is call them and ask.
Wish my local government thinks of this. My wife and I run a after school tutoring center franchise. We converted to online.
Our county decides to sign a contract w/ a national company that provides private tutoring strictly online.
I wouldn't have cared if they used a competitor that has a presence in the county. Or they sign up w/ several franchises with local presence. But this is taking our tax dollars to pay for jobs in other areas.
Many families have quit because they lost their jobs. All of us have converted online one way or another...and trying to survive based on who has been retained. But this was like a kick in the nuts.
Many families have quit because they lost their jobs. All of us have converted online one way or another...and trying to survive based on who has been retained. But this was like a kick in the nuts.
"Call them and ask"
We all know how frustrating and time-wasting it can be, when calling for professional service...
In the end, it's still a tech problem.
Amazon has the tech, and the customer base to form a virtuous cycle.
The smaller shop dont have that.
We need more Shopify like supplier, with varying degrees of sophistication and targeted customer groups.
We all know how frustrating and time-wasting it can be, when calling for professional service...
In the end, it's still a tech problem.
Amazon has the tech, and the customer base to form a virtuous cycle.
The smaller shop dont have that.
We need more Shopify like supplier, with varying degrees of sophistication and targeted customer groups.
I've found the opposite.
Calling is a waste of time when you're dialing a megacorp like your phone company or utilities provider, because they treat customer service as a cost center and do everything possible to prevent you from talking to a human who isn't reading off a script.
Smaller shops will usually have someone who just picks up the phone when you call.
Calling is a waste of time when you're dialing a megacorp like your phone company or utilities provider, because they treat customer service as a cost center and do everything possible to prevent you from talking to a human who isn't reading off a script.
Smaller shops will usually have someone who just picks up the phone when you call.
That's true, but doesn't really solve the core problem for me - I don't like making decisions on the phone. I'd probably have to be pleasantly shocked by the price/availability/whatever in order to be comfortable with it.
Give me a website I can browse with all the information (and the rest of the internet) at my fingertips any day of the week. (To a lesser extent I find in-person shopping a frustrating exercise too.)
Give me a website I can browse with all the information (and the rest of the internet) at my fingertips any day of the week. (To a lesser extent I find in-person shopping a frustrating exercise too.)
The thing is, "call them and ask" can be a 10-minute chore if you're looking for some oddball item from a local supplier, or a 10-second search on Amazon.
Idk, searching Amazon has always been such a frustrating experience for me that i find hard to believe 10 seconds of searching achieve anything
Their search is so bad that it has to be intentional. This person isn't finding shit in ten seconds.
Look, there are a lot of different shopping scenarios. Maybe I know that I need a right-angle adapter from HDMI male to HDMI mini male. Think about the two options here:
1) Go to Amazon (or Monoprice, or whatever - it's online vs local that I'm talking about here), search for "right-angle adapter from HDMI male to HDMI mini male", and look through the result photos until you find something that looks correct, most likely somewhere on the first page. If it were a more expensive item, maybe you'd spend an extra minute checking the ratings, reviews, and questions. Either way, you find exactly what you need by searching for an exact descriptive phrase.
2) Call some local shop, and have this conversation:
A) "Hi, I'm looking for an HDMI cable, but it needs to be a certain shape and size, do you have a selection of those?"
B) "Sure, I think so, what do you need exactly?"
A) "Well, it's HDMI male on one side, HDMI mini male on the other side, and the mini side needs to have a right angle connector. I need it to be at least a foot long, ideally not much longer than that."
B) "Ok, let me go check on that..."
A) [wait a little bit]
B) "I have a few options here, was that a right angle on the mini side or the full-size side?"
A) "Mini side"
B) "Ok I don't think we have exactly that, but..."
Then, repeat as many times as you can stand with other stores.
This isn't some theoretical example. Something like this happened to me a few years ago, and I made a conscious decision to use online merchants more often because it's an easy trade to make to regain a bit of time in your life.
1) Go to Amazon (or Monoprice, or whatever - it's online vs local that I'm talking about here), search for "right-angle adapter from HDMI male to HDMI mini male", and look through the result photos until you find something that looks correct, most likely somewhere on the first page. If it were a more expensive item, maybe you'd spend an extra minute checking the ratings, reviews, and questions. Either way, you find exactly what you need by searching for an exact descriptive phrase.
2) Call some local shop, and have this conversation:
A) "Hi, I'm looking for an HDMI cable, but it needs to be a certain shape and size, do you have a selection of those?"
B) "Sure, I think so, what do you need exactly?"
A) "Well, it's HDMI male on one side, HDMI mini male on the other side, and the mini side needs to have a right angle connector. I need it to be at least a foot long, ideally not much longer than that."
B) "Ok, let me go check on that..."
A) [wait a little bit]
B) "I have a few options here, was that a right angle on the mini side or the full-size side?"
A) "Mini side"
B) "Ok I don't think we have exactly that, but..."
Then, repeat as many times as you can stand with other stores.
This isn't some theoretical example. Something like this happened to me a few years ago, and I made a conscious decision to use online merchants more often because it's an easy trade to make to regain a bit of time in your life.
A thousand times this. Except for books amazon's search must be the crappiest thing there is.
My local bookstore has 'email them and ask', which is much lower friction.
Yea the local bookstore and a lot of other retail I can think of will respond to tweets too.
lol
I expect the successful ones will have decent ecommerce platform within the new few years.
I expect the successful ones will have decent ecommerce platform within the new few years.
They already exist:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22773393
And Bookshop is just the newest one, as others like Alibris have been around for much longer.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22773393
And Bookshop is just the newest one, as others like Alibris have been around for much longer.
Yep. I called my local hardware store to see if they can bulk deliver soil. They couldn’t. But five minutes later they called me back and recommended a place that could. On the first call she was disappointed I didn’t want to buy 240cu ft of soil in 2cu ft bags, but by the second call she realized it was good I called their shop first even if they couldn’t meet my needs.
Also their staff are way more helpful than any person at a big box hardware store.
Also their staff are way more helpful than any person at a big box hardware store.
I don’t get how you deal with payment in that scenario ?
Do you spell your card number on the phone ?
Otherwise while I get wanting to support local stores, have a bookstore order a book for you to have them deliver it feels way too wasteful when you could order the book from systems directly hooked with the publisher that will send it straight to you, delivered by professional drivers.
Otherwise while I get wanting to support local stores, have a bookstore order a book for you to have them deliver it feels way too wasteful when you could order the book from systems directly hooked with the publisher that will send it straight to you, delivered by professional drivers.
Calling is a waste when you have to navigate phone trees and the people at the other end are only trained to answer the same questions that can be answered with Google. Whenever I call it's because I have a specific question that I couldn't find the answer to on their FAQ or elsewhere... and I can never get the answer.
Indeed!
I bought a pfSense-style router recently, and a Pi 4B, both from small shops (one Swedish[1], one French[2]). They shipped within 24h. These people are hard at work, and they deserve all the credit they can get.
In particular, the Swedish one had a very nice knowledge base on their products (they select / assemble parts themselves, cost is as low as it gets, I value the work they do since it's saving me time and hassle).
___
[1]: https://teklager.se/en/
[2]: https://www.kubii.fr/ (sadly, language is Fr-Es-It only, but I guess we've got Google Trad for that)
I bought a pfSense-style router recently, and a Pi 4B, both from small shops (one Swedish[1], one French[2]). They shipped within 24h. These people are hard at work, and they deserve all the credit they can get.
In particular, the Swedish one had a very nice knowledge base on their products (they select / assemble parts themselves, cost is as low as it gets, I value the work they do since it's saving me time and hassle).
___
[1]: https://teklager.se/en/
[2]: https://www.kubii.fr/ (sadly, language is Fr-Es-It only, but I guess we've got Google Trad for that)
Is that Pulp Fiction? I've been thinking today about the places I most want to be around at the end of this. They made the list, I don't really need a book right now but I think I'll get one anyway.
Pulp Fiction, Massey Books and Paperhound all deliver, tho some of these more further afield than others (Paperhound delivers by bicycle).
Various local retail I've been trying to buy from: * Cat supplies delivered from Happy Cat. * Stationary and cards from Regional Assembly of Text * Beer from 33 Acres.
Various local retail I've been trying to buy from: * Cat supplies delivered from Happy Cat. * Stationary and cards from Regional Assembly of Text * Beer from 33 Acres.
[deleted]
It’s a nice touch by The Guardian to write this article but given how much Amazon has benefited from this epidemic, I do not think any kind of individual vigilantism will really work here. You’re not even a drop in the bucket for them and most people do not care.
If anything, thanks to them being a go-to platform, they’ve single handedly allowed a lot of third party shops to sell their inventory, and have come out net positive as a result. I don’t mean to sound as an apologist saying this - just stating the bloody obvious.
The “vote with your wallet” rhetoric doesn’t work. It’s half past feel good bullshit. If you want these companies to change it must be codified into the law and backed up by hard time.
But good luck with that, since China is a massive trade partner and every country is turning a blind eye to them imprisoning people in concentration camps and harvesting organs. It’s unlikely The States are going to have a change of heart anytime soon.
If anything, thanks to them being a go-to platform, they’ve single handedly allowed a lot of third party shops to sell their inventory, and have come out net positive as a result. I don’t mean to sound as an apologist saying this - just stating the bloody obvious.
The “vote with your wallet” rhetoric doesn’t work. It’s half past feel good bullshit. If you want these companies to change it must be codified into the law and backed up by hard time.
But good luck with that, since China is a massive trade partner and every country is turning a blind eye to them imprisoning people in concentration camps and harvesting organs. It’s unlikely The States are going to have a change of heart anytime soon.
I think it's feel good bullshit in part because the entire narrative is bullshit, driven by an anti-tech media stance that is not actually well represented in the real world.
Most people are happy with Amazon and like the service they provide - this kind of thing is a non-story.
I say this as someone who buys directly from suppliers like Dell or Logitech when I think there's a risk to getting repackaged or counterfeit items from Amazon, but the experience is often worse (Dell monitors took 5 weeks to arrive).
I think these articles are a symptom of something else, but I'm not quite sure what it is. It feels like a political or tribal position, anti-large company, or anti-success? - I'm not quite sure, but I think there's an underlying theme that drives these types of articles and it isn't what they're directly about. They're okay with a small under-dog company story, but if you become large and successful then you're automatically written about in the most uncharitable way possible.
Most people are happy with Amazon and like the service they provide - this kind of thing is a non-story.
I say this as someone who buys directly from suppliers like Dell or Logitech when I think there's a risk to getting repackaged or counterfeit items from Amazon, but the experience is often worse (Dell monitors took 5 weeks to arrive).
I think these articles are a symptom of something else, but I'm not quite sure what it is. It feels like a political or tribal position, anti-large company, or anti-success? - I'm not quite sure, but I think there's an underlying theme that drives these types of articles and it isn't what they're directly about. They're okay with a small under-dog company story, but if you become large and successful then you're automatically written about in the most uncharitable way possible.
Chiming in for an anecdote to say: I'm boycotting Amazon because I am pro-labor and Amazon treats their employees and contractors like almost-literal shit. Even back when I first entered the workforce all the people I knew who went to work for Amazon had absolutely hellish descriptions of their times there. Employees regularly sobbing at their desks from pressure, PIPs being weaponized to assuage paranoid delusions of mutiny from middle management, etc. It sounded like that description of an experiment with monkeys who beat each other for trying to get food. My housemate drives delivery for Amazon sometimes and his depiction of their health standards and SOP during this crisis are atrocious. If there would be a Geneva convention for employment, Amazon would be most of its raison d'etre.
Thats a very virtuous and noble stance. According to the BLS, among the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America (warehouse worker didn't make the list) are loggers, pilots, fishermen, farmers, construction workers, roofers, trash collector and extraction workers.
Can I assume that out of concern for these workers you also don't buy food, don't fly commercially, you dispose of your own refuse, never use anything made out of wood and never enter a man made structure?
Can I assume that out of concern for these workers you also don't buy food, don't fly commercially, you dispose of your own refuse, never use anything made out of wood and never enter a man made structure?
You seem to have conflated "Amazon the corporation" with "Amazon's labor force". They are not the same, but it is intriguing that you would take this line of rhetoric.
I shop at the local food co-op, and I'm fine with the union leadership for flight attendants and my local waste removal folks. I can't be perfect -- no one can -- but this is a lot better than some others. Of course, this sort of individualistic atomization of "virtue" with almost zero systemic change to address the underlying concerns is ultimately kind of pointless, but I don't see a reason to start encouraging the exploitation of fellow humans any more than I do now.
Your response makes me think you were triggered by my position. What stake do you hold with Amazon? Why are you coming to their defense?
I shop at the local food co-op, and I'm fine with the union leadership for flight attendants and my local waste removal folks. I can't be perfect -- no one can -- but this is a lot better than some others. Of course, this sort of individualistic atomization of "virtue" with almost zero systemic change to address the underlying concerns is ultimately kind of pointless, but I don't see a reason to start encouraging the exploitation of fellow humans any more than I do now.
Your response makes me think you were triggered by my position. What stake do you hold with Amazon? Why are you coming to their defense?
your argument is just one big logical fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
also danger != horrific working environment
also danger != horrific working environment
It's very condescending to say "I am doing this because I am pro-labor", as if, we the other users of Amazon are not pro-labor and don't care about their labour practices, and assumes that we can't read and comprehend. We all have worked at companies where you will have a set of disgruntled employees, and more so in places with more than half a million employees. The whole anti-Amazon narrative is trying to hold Amazon to higher standards using Guardian which itself doesn't have high standards for it's core journalism.
> as if, we the other users of Amazon are not pro-labor and don't care about their labour practices
My intention is not to push this narrative. All of us compromise every day on our values, and some matter more to us than others. Personally I thought I'd never drive a fossil-fuel-based vehicle but that quickly became impractical as my priorities called me beyond a 10-mile radius around my home.
> trying to hold Amazon to higher standards
Do you think Amazon is held to high standards already? I hold them to mediocre standards because I understand they have to compete on an absolutely massive scale in an industry with razor thin margins. But even so, they're not doing all that well. Amazon's coffers are so full they can't re-invest their capital fast enough. So I don't see how anyone can argue that it's bad for society to treat employees as if they're humans who can catch & spread a virus and/or die.
My intention is not to push this narrative. All of us compromise every day on our values, and some matter more to us than others. Personally I thought I'd never drive a fossil-fuel-based vehicle but that quickly became impractical as my priorities called me beyond a 10-mile radius around my home.
> trying to hold Amazon to higher standards
Do you think Amazon is held to high standards already? I hold them to mediocre standards because I understand they have to compete on an absolutely massive scale in an industry with razor thin margins. But even so, they're not doing all that well. Amazon's coffers are so full they can't re-invest their capital fast enough. So I don't see how anyone can argue that it's bad for society to treat employees as if they're humans who can catch & spread a virus and/or die.
Yes, I do think Amazon is held to pretty high standards. I have seen more outrage for people who won't work at Amazon complain about the work conditions at Amazon than the actual employees themselves. If your defense is that they might not want to then you need to check your moral high ground.
If Amazon does indeed engage in illegal behavior, then one should be hell bent on calling them out but the whole raging behavior at all times drains the emotional bank and when the actual crimes occur people don't have appetite for it.
If Amazon does indeed engage in illegal behavior, then one should be hell bent on calling them out but the whole raging behavior at all times drains the emotional bank and when the actual crimes occur people don't have appetite for it.
I don't think anyone is saying that what amazon is doing is necessarily illegal, one can still strongly disagree.
And even if amazon is held to a higher standard (which is a big if), considering that they are by quite a margin the biggest player so what they do creates a signal to all other players about what is acceptable. Moreover with their profits they could afford to treat their employees well.
And even if amazon is held to a higher standard (which is a big if), considering that they are by quite a margin the biggest player so what they do creates a signal to all other players about what is acceptable. Moreover with their profits they could afford to treat their employees well.
What people are (or at least, I am) saying is that yes this behavior is technically legal, and that's a problem for those who care about human dignity and the ideal of the social contract.
As the article pointed out, there are reasons to avoid Amazon outside of this anti-tech stance. These reasons may not be relevant to some people, but they will be relevant to others.
Those others are likely why this article is popping up now. In the past, people who did not like Amazon would simply shop locally. Now these people have to explore online options. Of course, Amazon has the mindshare so people may not think of the alternatives. People who seek alternatives may find it difficult to determine who is reputable and who is not, or simply who has their act in order to handle online orders efficiently, which also works in Amazon's benefit.
Regardless of how you view their desire to shop elsewhere, that desire still exists. The Guardian was simply facilitating the process for people who want alternatives.
Those others are likely why this article is popping up now. In the past, people who did not like Amazon would simply shop locally. Now these people have to explore online options. Of course, Amazon has the mindshare so people may not think of the alternatives. People who seek alternatives may find it difficult to determine who is reputable and who is not, or simply who has their act in order to handle online orders efficiently, which also works in Amazon's benefit.
Regardless of how you view their desire to shop elsewhere, that desire still exists. The Guardian was simply facilitating the process for people who want alternatives.
Some data to back that up.
91% with a favorable view of Amazon, and that's sourced via a media company:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21144680/verge-tech-survey...
Amazon the 2nd most trusted brand in America:
https://morningconsult.com/most-trusted-brands/
91% with a favorable view of Amazon, and that's sourced via a media company:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/2/21144680/verge-tech-survey...
Amazon the 2nd most trusted brand in America:
https://morningconsult.com/most-trusted-brands/
Exactly. For every vocal critic of Amazon, there are thousands who quietly buy everything they need from Amazon, and are satisfied with it. The critics are just the most vocal. But they are by far the minority.. by a long shot.
I used to be very pro-amazon. I'm not terribly anti-amazon for generic cheap shit, but if I have an option to get it somewhere else reliably (ideally direct from a company), I will. Especially if it's a moderately expensive niche product or an established brand. I've just been bitten too many times with junk/counterfeits.
This. Tech destroyed the print journalism business model, and irrational hatred of tech is brazen in most newsrooms (those that remain).
This has nothing to do with anti-success it's anti anti-social/asshole behaviour. I mean just Jeff Bezos (literally the richest or second richest person on the planet) asking his employees to donate each other sick days should make people boycott amazon. It's interesting how many people would never accept this sort of behaviour in their social circle, but somehow once a big corporate does it it's OK.
Bullies do get accepted into social circles, as long as they deliver enough value to make up for it. Same principle at work here IMHO.
The aspect they didn't even mention the digital service tax of 2% that was designed to target this whole Amazon tax aspect. Well, that does seem odd - so article is clearly slanted.
THIS:- https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-of-t... Effective from 1st April 2020 and directly affects Amazon in the UK.
THIS:- https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-of-t... Effective from 1st April 2020 and directly affects Amazon in the UK.
The anti-amazon thing is certainly tribal with a certain kind of person in the UK. Ask which super-ethical companies they prefer to shop with and the reply is often quite amusing.
No. I know a lot of people upset with Amazon in large part because they have devastated Main Street. Convenience is not the only human value worthy of consideration. I do use them sometimes, but even then, for some products it's a bad experience because you get fakes.
How much has Amazon really decimated "Main Street?"
Wasn't it already decimated by the big box retailers and Wal-Mart?
Wasn't it already decimated by the big box retailers and Wal-Mart?
"Your Honor, Main Street was already bleeding out from Sam Walton's knife attack when Amazon ran over it with a car" is not a wonderful defense.
Main street was already on life support long before Sam Walton got involved. High prices is not a good business model for commodity items people but often. Any one of them could have lowered prices to something reasonable and stopped my parents monthly drive to the big city malls for the basics.
> given how much Amazon has benefited from this epidemic
It's important to also recognize how individuals and families have benefited from Amazon during this time, including myself.
It's important to also recognize how individuals and families have benefited from Amazon during this time, including myself.
vote with your wallet is like actual voting.
Where you inconvenience yourself for some time to line up in a booth to select someone who you more likely just hated less.
Now imagine doing that all day every day, the inconveniences each time might be smaller, but hey, Amazon is always there. The 'voter turnout' is going to drop to 0 real fast.
Where you inconvenience yourself for some time to line up in a booth to select someone who you more likely just hated less.
Now imagine doing that all day every day, the inconveniences each time might be smaller, but hey, Amazon is always there. The 'voter turnout' is going to drop to 0 real fast.
About China.
There's a growing sense that we ("the free world", western countries + usual friends like Japan, Oz, etc) are about to enter a cold war with China, though, following the COVID-19 debacle.[1] The CPC's ultimate responsibility will likely define the magnitude of that (which may range from mild such as tariffs, to hard e.g. Soviet era, passing by sanctions of various degrees, forbidding companies to even trade let alone joint-venture in China, etc).
Independently of diplomacy, the particular conditions of a pandemic seem to call for less dependence on foreign powers, at least on a continental basis (some capacity for autarky on a temporary basis).
Independently of the above, history shows that out of the 16 last times there was a shift in world's first GDP (here US → China), no less than 12 led to war.[2]
Again independently, the general sentiment towards China has deteriorated faster than ever in 2019 (before crisis), due to the White House posture notably (trade tensions, mutual racism/xenophobia).[3][4] This went even lower recently.[5]
A key factor notably, in my opinion, is that anti-China sentiment used to be correlated with age: people over 50 were more likely to have such a view, while younger categories held a more favorable view; but recent events are likely to sway the opinion across the board. Anyone old enough to have a political opinion isn't likely to "forget" COVID-19 or "forgive" wrongdoings in the matter if responsibility is proven in the public eye.
There is little substance to redeem any of these facts, I'm afraid.
____
A personal take on this [Disclaimer: opinion still in flux as information comes in. Strong conviction, but loosely held.]
I don't see how China doesn't lose most of their international credibility in this affair. Once global production and logistics flows are restructured to take China out of the equation (it'll take years, a decade at least I think), it will take an even longer time to come back, if ever (other superpowers, more worthy of trust, may emerge in a generation's time). It will cost the world a lot, may prolong the depression much more than if we looked the other way, but deaths in the 6 figures (possibly an order of magnitude more by then, even two...) is simply unacceptable, reason enough to do it, to isolate them and take the collective hit. We can take it, the combined power of the world minus China is still overwhelmingly capable to drive growth. There are tons of candidates where investment will flock to fund factories, and some of these will come back 'home' for a number of strategic sectors.
I'm afraid China's economic appeal has all but collapsed for this generation (next 10-20 years). I don't think most people realize it yet, but the pile of arguments for a cold war is damning, historically aligned with most precedents, and actually a rare occurrence of too much at once.
(Let us pray there was no malign intent towards the world, for that would likely remove the "cold" adjective above.)
China may just have lost its shot at becoming the world's "leader", and it seems they only have themselves to blame, as their lack of transparency and their negligence for human life are cold hard choices they still keep making, some 30 years after Tiananmen. We hoped China was ready and could change, we thought it would evolve towards a more trustable partner, but instead it maintained its internal dystopia more strongly than ever, and actually engaged actively in trying to change us (remember how, very recently, they were trying to force the NBA and so many corporations to essentially bend to the CPC's propaganda... needless to say, that ship has most likely sailed for good). If we needed a reminder (apparently we did), authoritarianism kills.
So this:
> But good luck with that, since China is a massive trade partner and every country is turning a blind eye to them imprisoning people in concentration camps and harvesting organs. It’s unlikely The States are going to have a change of heart anytime soon.
Seems incredibly anachronic to me. It was true in 2019, but that world is now over, for good.
I agree with everything else you said.
____
[1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3081601/co...
[2]: https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/
[3]: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/08/13/u-s-views-of-c...
[4]: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/attitudes-towa...
[5]: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-public-opinion-toward-c...
There's a growing sense that we ("the free world", western countries + usual friends like Japan, Oz, etc) are about to enter a cold war with China, though, following the COVID-19 debacle.[1] The CPC's ultimate responsibility will likely define the magnitude of that (which may range from mild such as tariffs, to hard e.g. Soviet era, passing by sanctions of various degrees, forbidding companies to even trade let alone joint-venture in China, etc).
Independently of diplomacy, the particular conditions of a pandemic seem to call for less dependence on foreign powers, at least on a continental basis (some capacity for autarky on a temporary basis).
Independently of the above, history shows that out of the 16 last times there was a shift in world's first GDP (here US → China), no less than 12 led to war.[2]
Again independently, the general sentiment towards China has deteriorated faster than ever in 2019 (before crisis), due to the White House posture notably (trade tensions, mutual racism/xenophobia).[3][4] This went even lower recently.[5]
A key factor notably, in my opinion, is that anti-China sentiment used to be correlated with age: people over 50 were more likely to have such a view, while younger categories held a more favorable view; but recent events are likely to sway the opinion across the board. Anyone old enough to have a political opinion isn't likely to "forget" COVID-19 or "forgive" wrongdoings in the matter if responsibility is proven in the public eye.
There is little substance to redeem any of these facts, I'm afraid.
____
A personal take on this [Disclaimer: opinion still in flux as information comes in. Strong conviction, but loosely held.]
I don't see how China doesn't lose most of their international credibility in this affair. Once global production and logistics flows are restructured to take China out of the equation (it'll take years, a decade at least I think), it will take an even longer time to come back, if ever (other superpowers, more worthy of trust, may emerge in a generation's time). It will cost the world a lot, may prolong the depression much more than if we looked the other way, but deaths in the 6 figures (possibly an order of magnitude more by then, even two...) is simply unacceptable, reason enough to do it, to isolate them and take the collective hit. We can take it, the combined power of the world minus China is still overwhelmingly capable to drive growth. There are tons of candidates where investment will flock to fund factories, and some of these will come back 'home' for a number of strategic sectors.
I'm afraid China's economic appeal has all but collapsed for this generation (next 10-20 years). I don't think most people realize it yet, but the pile of arguments for a cold war is damning, historically aligned with most precedents, and actually a rare occurrence of too much at once.
(Let us pray there was no malign intent towards the world, for that would likely remove the "cold" adjective above.)
China may just have lost its shot at becoming the world's "leader", and it seems they only have themselves to blame, as their lack of transparency and their negligence for human life are cold hard choices they still keep making, some 30 years after Tiananmen. We hoped China was ready and could change, we thought it would evolve towards a more trustable partner, but instead it maintained its internal dystopia more strongly than ever, and actually engaged actively in trying to change us (remember how, very recently, they were trying to force the NBA and so many corporations to essentially bend to the CPC's propaganda... needless to say, that ship has most likely sailed for good). If we needed a reminder (apparently we did), authoritarianism kills.
So this:
> But good luck with that, since China is a massive trade partner and every country is turning a blind eye to them imprisoning people in concentration camps and harvesting organs. It’s unlikely The States are going to have a change of heart anytime soon.
Seems incredibly anachronic to me. It was true in 2019, but that world is now over, for good.
I agree with everything else you said.
____
[1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3081601/co...
[2]: https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/
[3]: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/08/13/u-s-views-of-c...
[4]: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/12/05/attitudes-towa...
[5]: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-public-opinion-toward-c...
China may be damaged as other countries try to become less dependent, but the country that has really destroyed its reputation and permanently damaged its credibility and its relationships is the US. I'm afraid that the rest of the world is going to be working very hard to cut the US out.
I didn't want to mix topics, but if you're gonna go there...
As a European, I wholeheartedly agree.
It's not a new sentiment either. The US has grown increasingly hostile towards the world since the turn of the century, Bush Jr.
Needless to say, 45 made things way, way worse, but the US made that choice and is poised to double down come November, despite the criticality of current events. The why and how does not matter to the outside. Dems/GOP blablabla, corruption blablabla, Biden blablabla, Hillary blablabla... who cares? Get your shit together!
It's worrying (at an all-time high as we speak) for foreign states and companies. For many around the world, being too tied to the US has become a liability indeed, adding too much uncertainty (risk) to their bottom line or stability. This is no more acceptable than China's lies and deceit. Humbling reminder that hostility is not without consequence, and pretty much always results in lose-lose outcomes.
Losing the US as a dependable, reliable world leader has been the most tragic loss of this century, in my opinion.
As a European, I wholeheartedly agree.
It's not a new sentiment either. The US has grown increasingly hostile towards the world since the turn of the century, Bush Jr.
Needless to say, 45 made things way, way worse, but the US made that choice and is poised to double down come November, despite the criticality of current events. The why and how does not matter to the outside. Dems/GOP blablabla, corruption blablabla, Biden blablabla, Hillary blablabla... who cares? Get your shit together!
It's worrying (at an all-time high as we speak) for foreign states and companies. For many around the world, being too tied to the US has become a liability indeed, adding too much uncertainty (risk) to their bottom line or stability. This is no more acceptable than China's lies and deceit. Humbling reminder that hostility is not without consequence, and pretty much always results in lose-lose outcomes.
Losing the US as a dependable, reliable world leader has been the most tragic loss of this century, in my opinion.
Why would/should 'China' care? They have an internal market of about 1,4 billion people. They shrug and go on like they have always done.
I disagree. Economic boycotts were crucial for the success of the Civil Rights movement in America
And how do you propose we enforce your vision of fairness? By gunpoint?
Your phrasing suggests so.
Your phrasing suggests so.
If you're in the Bay Area and need more computer things, give Central Computers a try. Their website is delightfully simple.
This article recommends hitting up major brands on their websites, which is ok for all of them except Dell. Dell's website is an absolute shitshow.
I've been using Google Express and liked it quite a bit.
This article recommends hitting up major brands on their websites, which is ok for all of them except Dell. Dell's website is an absolute shitshow.
I've been using Google Express and liked it quite a bit.
yes to central computers, meh to dell, and heck no to google.
support independently-owned businesses not trying to corner the market on all your personal data.
support independently-owned businesses not trying to corner the market on all your personal data.
Given how much Bezos has added to his personal net worth during the pandemic ($24B [1]), perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for Amazon employees... or else. Charges of pandemic profiteering could be convincingly brought to bear.
[1]https://fortune.com/2020/04/14/jeff-bezos-net-worth-2020-bil...
[1]https://fortune.com/2020/04/14/jeff-bezos-net-worth-2020-bil...
I would expect HN of all places to know the difference between paper and liquid net worth.
People are stuck at home and as result are forced to shop online which results in increase revenue for the largest online commerce store.
People are stuck at home and as result are forced to shop online which results in increase revenue for the largest online commerce store.
And? With increased revenue Amazon can probably afford to pay their workers more.
Increased revenue comes with increased costs. They may actually be making less profit. We’ll find out this week when the post their earnings.
AMZN operating income (revenue sans cost of rev and opex) has been growing YoY for a while, so no, Amazon is making more money and being more efficient at making it.
You have no idea if that's true unless you have insider info. Things could have changed drastically this quarter.
You're free to fact check what I said, but please don't make an argument from ignorance. A QoQ difference is hardly as impactful as multiple YoY changes.
Case in point, they just released their earnings. Revenue was way higher than normal, EPS was way lower than expected (off 30%) due to major COVID related costs. They also warned to expected even worse losses next quarter.
Like economies of scale, but backwards? This makes no sense to me. Amazon was built to extract value from volume.
I win a contract to deliver mail to the moon. $5B per delivery. 1 per week. My costs are $25B + $1B per delivery (we're making this up). 6 weeks, I'm making 80% margin per delivery.
Suddenly a bunch of people want to live on the moon. Rebid, win contract that says I now have 10 deliveries per day. I don't have enough rockets to support 10 deliveries per day, so I need to build a lot.
I also need to do it extremely quickly. Instead of $5B per rocket, I need to pay $10B (expedite, overtime, shortages, etc) in order to meet my contract's deadlines. My capacity also means, I can no longer rely on existing launch sites, $100B to build my own launch site plus an additional $1B per launch.
As long as I can keep my position on this contract, I'll make mega bucks in the long run, but short term I'm hemorrhaging cash.
Suddenly a bunch of people want to live on the moon. Rebid, win contract that says I now have 10 deliveries per day. I don't have enough rockets to support 10 deliveries per day, so I need to build a lot.
I also need to do it extremely quickly. Instead of $5B per rocket, I need to pay $10B (expedite, overtime, shortages, etc) in order to meet my contract's deadlines. My capacity also means, I can no longer rely on existing launch sites, $100B to build my own launch site plus an additional $1B per launch.
As long as I can keep my position on this contract, I'll make mega bucks in the long run, but short term I'm hemorrhaging cash.
Slowly increased volume yes, a sudden burst of volume is a whole different story.
For example right now they are trying to hire 100,000 people to cover the increased demand. In the meantime, they are making their existing people do the work of those 100,000, or letting the work go undone. In both cases that's lost profits.
For example right now they are trying to hire 100,000 people to cover the increased demand. In the meantime, they are making their existing people do the work of those 100,000, or letting the work go undone. In both cases that's lost profits.
It’s lost revenue not lost profits. Amazon can sort orders by profit and thus have profit increase as a larger percentage of work goes undone.
That's not how real life works though. There is lost profits in unfulfilled orders beyond just the original profit, in terms of customer service overhead and warehouse overhead.
Also, paying someone to work overtime to serve the same orders is most definitely lost profit, because it costs more to deliver the service.
Amazon's systems aren't designed for this type of sudden surge. They usually have to ramp up and prepare for it (like around Christmas).
Also, paying someone to work overtime to serve the same orders is most definitely lost profit, because it costs more to deliver the service.
Amazon's systems aren't designed for this type of sudden surge. They usually have to ramp up and prepare for it (like around Christmas).
This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed, it’s designed to be robust and maximize profit. Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives them plenty of time to ramp up staff.
It comes down to the software side of their business, and they have some great back end software.
It comes down to the software side of their business, and they have some great back end software.
It's clear that you don't understand Amazon's business nor do you appear to be willing to listen to reason.
> This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed
They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.
> it’s designed to be robust and maximize profit.
Within limits. It doesn't scale infinitely. There is a human aspect involved that doesn't scale instantly.
> Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives them plenty of time to ramp up staff.
Except, again, you are not accounting for lost profits due to increased customer service requests, increased credits to Prime members for not meeting the Prime SLA, increased costs of the warehouses being full of products they can't move because they are constantly moving the new essential products that are coming in, and a whole bunch of other fixed costs that they have not related to their variable costs.
> This is hardly the first time their system has been overwhelmed
They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.
> it’s designed to be robust and maximize profit.
Within limits. It doesn't scale infinitely. There is a human aspect involved that doesn't scale instantly.
> Further, a simple ships in X weeks gives them plenty of time to ramp up staff.
Except, again, you are not accounting for lost profits due to increased customer service requests, increased credits to Prime members for not meeting the Prime SLA, increased costs of the warehouses being full of products they can't move because they are constantly moving the new essential products that are coming in, and a whole bunch of other fixed costs that they have not related to their variable costs.
I have talked with warehouse employees, so I have a solid idea how it operates.
> They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.
That’s true, but not that relevant.
> Increased customer service requests
Customer support is a controllable expense. When customer support lines spike past a threshold they simply lack the people to take additional calls etc.
> Warehouses being full
Amazon has cut down on new items being added while still shipping some non essential items. What your suggesting is an extremely dumb move their not going to make.
> Prime SLA
What prime SLA?
From time to time, Amazon may choose in its sole discretion to add or remove Prime membership benefits. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
> They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.
That’s true, but not that relevant.
> Increased customer service requests
Customer support is a controllable expense. When customer support lines spike past a threshold they simply lack the people to take additional calls etc.
> Warehouses being full
Amazon has cut down on new items being added while still shipping some non essential items. What your suggesting is an extremely dumb move their not going to make.
> Prime SLA
What prime SLA?
From time to time, Amazon may choose in its sole discretion to add or remove Prime membership benefits. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
> > They have specifically said, publicly, multiple times, that they've never seen an increase like this before in the history of their business.
> That’s true, but not that relevant.
It was in direct refutation of your claim that they have dealt with this type of load before. They haven't and they have said that they have never dealt with anything like this before. That's why it's relevant.
> Customer support is a controllable expense. When customer support lines spike past a threshold they simply lack the people to take additional calls etc.
You clearly don't understand Amazon if you think this is true. Customer service is their number two core competency after logistics. It is paramount to their success.
Besides, what do you think happens when they stop answering customer service calls? Do you think people just go away? Obviously customer service is important to their business or they wouldn't have it. They can't just drop calls. So no, it's not really controllable.
> What prime SLA?
They're still giving credits if you call in and complain that your item didn't arrive within two days. Even though it tells you before you order that it won't.
Because they care about customer service.
> That’s true, but not that relevant.
It was in direct refutation of your claim that they have dealt with this type of load before. They haven't and they have said that they have never dealt with anything like this before. That's why it's relevant.
> Customer support is a controllable expense. When customer support lines spike past a threshold they simply lack the people to take additional calls etc.
You clearly don't understand Amazon if you think this is true. Customer service is their number two core competency after logistics. It is paramount to their success.
Besides, what do you think happens when they stop answering customer service calls? Do you think people just go away? Obviously customer service is important to their business or they wouldn't have it. They can't just drop calls. So no, it's not really controllable.
> What prime SLA?
They're still giving credits if you call in and complain that your item didn't arrive within two days. Even though it tells you before you order that it won't.
Because they care about customer service.
Sure..but what does that have to do with Bezo's paper net worth?
The media like to focus on Bezos because he’s literally the richest man on earth. But what they’re getting at is that Amazon the corporation should pay its workers more. They’re using Bezos as a talking point, but don’t focus too intently on that. What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business.
On paper sure...
But Buffett and Gates are far wealthier than Bezos.
>What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business.
What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people?
But Buffett and Gates are far wealthier than Bezos.
>What matters is how little workers are paid for such a lucrative business.
What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people?
> What's so lucrative in running a warehouse that packages shipments to people?
I had to check the definition of lucrative to make sure I wasn’t missing anything, but it seems to be both something that generates wealth and/or something that generates profit. There can be no question that amazon generates wealth. The company is now worth almost 1.2 trillion dollars [1], and the founder is now on paper the wealthiest man on earth.
The company also generates quite significant profits, after its initial long phase of investment in growth.
“Amazon annual net income for 2019 was $11.588B, a 15.04% increase from 2018.” [2]
Technically you asked what makes the business lucrative, not whether or not it is in fact lucrative. Well I am not qualified to articulate why the business is lucrative but with 11.5B in net income last year and a total value of 1.2 trillion, there is certainly no question that it is somehow quite lucrative.
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/market...
[2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-in...
I had to check the definition of lucrative to make sure I wasn’t missing anything, but it seems to be both something that generates wealth and/or something that generates profit. There can be no question that amazon generates wealth. The company is now worth almost 1.2 trillion dollars [1], and the founder is now on paper the wealthiest man on earth.
The company also generates quite significant profits, after its initial long phase of investment in growth.
“Amazon annual net income for 2019 was $11.588B, a 15.04% increase from 2018.” [2]
Technically you asked what makes the business lucrative, not whether or not it is in fact lucrative. Well I am not qualified to articulate why the business is lucrative but with 11.5B in net income last year and a total value of 1.2 trillion, there is certainly no question that it is somehow quite lucrative.
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/market...
[2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-in...
Focusing on begging bezos to bless his workers with a livable wage seems like the wrong angle. It should be illegal for such a business to operate this way to begin with.
Or they can simply hire more people, which they’re doing. I’m not saying Amazon employees are greedy, but I find it ironic that people claim that the altruistic thing to do is to concentrate wealth into the hands of fewer people.
> people claim that the altruistic thing to do is to concentrate wealth into the hands of fewer people.
I am actually astounded that I just read those words in regards to minimum-wage employees. Considering the context - Jeff Bezos' worth and Amazon's margins - it is absolutely boggling. Is this a sarcastic comment?
If not, I have a genuine press. Can Amazon not do both increasing their mailroom labour and increasing pay/benefits at the same time?
I am absolutely impressed either way.
I am actually astounded that I just read those words in regards to minimum-wage employees. Considering the context - Jeff Bezos' worth and Amazon's margins - it is absolutely boggling. Is this a sarcastic comment?
If not, I have a genuine press. Can Amazon not do both increasing their mailroom labour and increasing pay/benefits at the same time?
I am absolutely impressed either way.
I’m astounded that you literally did no research in this matter before commenting. Amazon has had a minimum wage of $15 for a couple years now. They’re paying an additional $2 for everyone now to account for the coronavirus, though it sounds temporary.
Yes. It does not refute my point on hipocracy.
Why? Their margins haven’t changed. If anything, they’re tighter than usual due to extra precautions
Well, it’s more like they should have been paying their workers more for a while. Now is as good a time as any to make good on a well deserved compensation increase.
Why do you think they should pay their workers more? Do you have data that they are paying below market wages? If they are paying below market wages, then how are they able to hire so many people?
Median pay for Amazon is $14 per hour, whereas median hourly wage for warehouse employees is $13, so it appears that Amazon pays a small premium over the market wage.
What makes you so special that your gut feeling of Amazon is something that people should pay attention to, rather than market wages?
Median pay for Amazon is $14 per hour, whereas median hourly wage for warehouse employees is $13, so it appears that Amazon pays a small premium over the market wage.
What makes you so special that your gut feeling of Amazon is something that people should pay attention to, rather than market wages?
I don’t believe it makes sense to expose each individual person to “raw market forces” such that without a job they would die. At least not in a society as wealthy as ours.
Much to your surprise you will find that I believe this can be done through libertarian means. This is an area of study and great interest for me.
But if you follow my theory to it’s conclusion you would find that nobody would be willing to work a shitty job for a low wage. And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages. However it wouldn’t hurt anyone for Amazon to raise wages now. It seems inhuman to me what amazon workers are expected to go through. (I feel this way about other and more exploitative labor situations too.)
So the market would require higher wages if we weren’t all individualized. It’s my greatest hope to help bring us all closer together in a libertarian way such that no one wants for food or shelter.
Much to your surprise you will find that I believe this can be done through libertarian means. This is an area of study and great interest for me.
But if you follow my theory to it’s conclusion you would find that nobody would be willing to work a shitty job for a low wage. And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages. However it wouldn’t hurt anyone for Amazon to raise wages now. It seems inhuman to me what amazon workers are expected to go through. (I feel this way about other and more exploitative labor situations too.)
So the market would require higher wages if we weren’t all individualized. It’s my greatest hope to help bring us all closer together in a libertarian way such that no one wants for food or shelter.
> I don’t believe it makes sense to expose each individual person to “raw market forces” such that without a job they would die. At least not in a society as wealthy as ours.
Wow, cute.
Why do you think you can trust what you think should happen?
Do you have special training or is it a burning in your bosom?
Do you walk around saying "The price of raisins should be $3 instead of $2"? On what do you base these moral certainties?
More gut sense?
Or do you have an actual argument that a market wage is wrong and should be replaced with your own personal wage, and why do you think this is a sound argument on which to base an economy?
Wow, cute.
Why do you think you can trust what you think should happen?
Do you have special training or is it a burning in your bosom?
Do you walk around saying "The price of raisins should be $3 instead of $2"? On what do you base these moral certainties?
More gut sense?
Or do you have an actual argument that a market wage is wrong and should be replaced with your own personal wage, and why do you think this is a sound argument on which to base an economy?
> Wow, cute.
Don’t be a jerk. I answered your questions honestly.
> Why do you think you can trust what you think should happen?
Are you asking why I want to involve myself in philosophical debate? I’ll refer you to the existing wealth of information on the nature of philosophical debate. You’re certainly free to avoid making any presumptions about how the world should work, but judging by your comments about markets you haven’t done that either.
I want to say, explicit financial markets have their place. But we don’t use them for everything. You don’t charge your neighbor for each hello. Grandma doesn’t charge her children for Christmas dinner. Your friends don’t charge you for relationship advice even though paid equivalents do exist.
So the question is, could we ever possibly arrange the world such that we don’t always need to charge for material goods? The raw stuff of human survival? I think it’s possible if we’re willing to make some changes to society. None of what I advocate for is government based. We can do this with free markets. Markets are shaped by the conditions of our world. Can we create the conditions possible for free food to be as easy to give away as free Wifi?
As a robotics engineer I think we can. But the changes to our society would need to be pronounced. Is it worth it? Well some people might think so, and I want to explore this concept with those people.
In the Kashmir region of India there is a place called the Golden Temple. They serve 50,000 free meals a day using all volunteer labor, firewood, and huge iron pots. So I say “hey we could do this in Oakland with robots, and make the designs open source to share the engineering burden and help other cities do the same.”
So right now I’m employed designing a farming robot I hope will be open source some day.
When I meet people like you on the internet it’s all the same. I say people should have better living conditions and you folks immediately jump on me and say “how could you know that for sure” and “you don’t know what’s good for me”. Well fine. But I’m not asking anything from you. I don’t need anything from you. And I’m not going to make the government take anything from you. So chill out. There’s people in this world that just wanna help each other.
Don’t be a jerk. I answered your questions honestly.
> Why do you think you can trust what you think should happen?
Are you asking why I want to involve myself in philosophical debate? I’ll refer you to the existing wealth of information on the nature of philosophical debate. You’re certainly free to avoid making any presumptions about how the world should work, but judging by your comments about markets you haven’t done that either.
I want to say, explicit financial markets have their place. But we don’t use them for everything. You don’t charge your neighbor for each hello. Grandma doesn’t charge her children for Christmas dinner. Your friends don’t charge you for relationship advice even though paid equivalents do exist.
So the question is, could we ever possibly arrange the world such that we don’t always need to charge for material goods? The raw stuff of human survival? I think it’s possible if we’re willing to make some changes to society. None of what I advocate for is government based. We can do this with free markets. Markets are shaped by the conditions of our world. Can we create the conditions possible for free food to be as easy to give away as free Wifi?
As a robotics engineer I think we can. But the changes to our society would need to be pronounced. Is it worth it? Well some people might think so, and I want to explore this concept with those people.
In the Kashmir region of India there is a place called the Golden Temple. They serve 50,000 free meals a day using all volunteer labor, firewood, and huge iron pots. So I say “hey we could do this in Oakland with robots, and make the designs open source to share the engineering burden and help other cities do the same.”
So right now I’m employed designing a farming robot I hope will be open source some day.
When I meet people like you on the internet it’s all the same. I say people should have better living conditions and you folks immediately jump on me and say “how could you know that for sure” and “you don’t know what’s good for me”. Well fine. But I’m not asking anything from you. I don’t need anything from you. And I’m not going to make the government take anything from you. So chill out. There’s people in this world that just wanna help each other.
>Don’t be a jerk. I answered your questions honestly.
No, you evaded the question. All you see is morality. Your own personal morality. When a software developer says "we should not use this design pattern because it's immoral" that's a person you either remove from their position of power or you mock. Complex phenomena are not subject to childish morality, they are subject to the question of whether they work or not and how well they work.
An economy is a complex system. You want the economy to produce a large amount of goods and services. Once it does, you can always tax the economy and seize output for public spending, so that's the place where we stick your moral sentiments. You do not apply moral reasoning to individual price vectors to insist that it's "wrong" that a tomato costs this much, or that a haircut costs that much.
Morality is an evolved sentiment design to govern your behavior in small tribal groups. You can't apply it to things like an airline scheduling system or a price vector.
>Are you asking why I want to involve myself in philosophical debate?
God, no. I know exactly why you do it. The world is filled with people like you, and indeed all teens go through a casuistry phase. It's a type of self-righteous disease that is the plague of the modern era. Once people lost faith in religion, they redirect their religious fervor to going on various moral crusades like banning straws or building "moral societies" that kill hundreds of millions of people. You might grow out of it at some point when you realize the world is much more complicated than you think, and what matters is that things actually work rather than conform to some mawkish moral sentiment that was never suited to design complex systems but to govern your own personal behavior in simple tribal situations.
No, what I'm wondering is why you think price vectors are "moral" concerns and why you think you are qualified to pronounce on them philosophically.
No, you evaded the question. All you see is morality. Your own personal morality. When a software developer says "we should not use this design pattern because it's immoral" that's a person you either remove from their position of power or you mock. Complex phenomena are not subject to childish morality, they are subject to the question of whether they work or not and how well they work.
An economy is a complex system. You want the economy to produce a large amount of goods and services. Once it does, you can always tax the economy and seize output for public spending, so that's the place where we stick your moral sentiments. You do not apply moral reasoning to individual price vectors to insist that it's "wrong" that a tomato costs this much, or that a haircut costs that much.
Morality is an evolved sentiment design to govern your behavior in small tribal groups. You can't apply it to things like an airline scheduling system or a price vector.
>Are you asking why I want to involve myself in philosophical debate?
God, no. I know exactly why you do it. The world is filled with people like you, and indeed all teens go through a casuistry phase. It's a type of self-righteous disease that is the plague of the modern era. Once people lost faith in religion, they redirect their religious fervor to going on various moral crusades like banning straws or building "moral societies" that kill hundreds of millions of people. You might grow out of it at some point when you realize the world is much more complicated than you think, and what matters is that things actually work rather than conform to some mawkish moral sentiment that was never suited to design complex systems but to govern your own personal behavior in simple tribal situations.
No, what I'm wondering is why you think price vectors are "moral" concerns and why you think you are qualified to pronounce on them philosophically.
I’m 35.
I’m going to get millions killed by advocating for open source robotics and cooperative businesses? Give me a break. You’re seeing Stalin just because I think we should help one another. We’ve got hungry people sleeping on the streets in the wealthiest nation on earth. We’ve got jails filled with people of color whose only crime was being poor and black. If you don’t think concerned adults can reasonably discuss these subjects without “killing hundreds of millions” you’re a fool.
> You want the economy to produce a large amount of goods and services. Once it does, you can always tax the economy and seize output for public spending, so that's the place where we stick your moral sentiments.
You think the height of moral achievement is to use the government to tax incomes? Well that government also uses tax dollars to bomb weddings and school busses in the Middle East. And asking the government to help means deadlock fighting with people who don’t give a shit about your cause or the people you want to help. Excuse me for considering how we can help one another directly, without government intervention. Sheesh, I’m surprised on HN to find someone that thinks taxes are the best way to behave morally.
And what of the adults who advocate for better social programs through government spending anyway? Are you going to call them children too? You can always feel superior in your arguments if you call your opponents children.
I’m going to get millions killed by advocating for open source robotics and cooperative businesses? Give me a break. You’re seeing Stalin just because I think we should help one another. We’ve got hungry people sleeping on the streets in the wealthiest nation on earth. We’ve got jails filled with people of color whose only crime was being poor and black. If you don’t think concerned adults can reasonably discuss these subjects without “killing hundreds of millions” you’re a fool.
> You want the economy to produce a large amount of goods and services. Once it does, you can always tax the economy and seize output for public spending, so that's the place where we stick your moral sentiments.
You think the height of moral achievement is to use the government to tax incomes? Well that government also uses tax dollars to bomb weddings and school busses in the Middle East. And asking the government to help means deadlock fighting with people who don’t give a shit about your cause or the people you want to help. Excuse me for considering how we can help one another directly, without government intervention. Sheesh, I’m surprised on HN to find someone that thinks taxes are the best way to behave morally.
And what of the adults who advocate for better social programs through government spending anyway? Are you going to call them children too? You can always feel superior in your arguments if you call your opponents children.
> You’re seeing Stalin just because I think we should help one another.
No, you are not talking about "helping one another". You are talking about coercion. Amazon is offering an above market wage. Hundreds of thousands of workers want to work for this wage. And along comes Mr. Morality trying to prevent this exchange from happening because it seems "wrong" to him. Him and his 35 years of deep insight into the nature of morality. Why do you have a hard time seeing that a lot of people are sickened by this behavior?
> You think the height of moral achievement is to use the government to tax incomes?
No, I think part of growing up is understanding that economic systems don't conform to your morality, and frankly, neither does the world. Please get off of your high chair and stop talking about price vectors being moral or immoral. When you are able to see to the end of things and understand complex systems you can begin to think about weighing in on what you think is moral or immoral about them. Until then, just worry about your own behavior and let other people transact how they want. Nothing prevents you from starting a business and paying whatever wage you want, if you think you can do it better.
No, you are not talking about "helping one another". You are talking about coercion. Amazon is offering an above market wage. Hundreds of thousands of workers want to work for this wage. And along comes Mr. Morality trying to prevent this exchange from happening because it seems "wrong" to him. Him and his 35 years of deep insight into the nature of morality. Why do you have a hard time seeing that a lot of people are sickened by this behavior?
> You think the height of moral achievement is to use the government to tax incomes?
No, I think part of growing up is understanding that economic systems don't conform to your morality, and frankly, neither does the world. Please get off of your high chair and stop talking about price vectors being moral or immoral. When you are able to see to the end of things and understand complex systems you can begin to think about weighing in on what you think is moral or immoral about them. Until then, just worry about your own behavior and let other people transact how they want. Nothing prevents you from starting a business and paying whatever wage you want, if you think you can do it better.
> And so, to make things work, the market would balance to higher wages
Which leaves no one better off.
If what costs $50 last year now costs $80, I'm actually worse off if I'm making $20/hr instead of $15.
Which leaves no one better off.
If what costs $50 last year now costs $80, I'm actually worse off if I'm making $20/hr instead of $15.
The money shouldn't come from increasing product prices. It should come from giving less to executives, shareholders, etc.
It shouldn't, huh? Do you also have an opinion on how a combustion engine should work? Is it wrong to have pistons?
"The market" is determined by people's choices, not fundamental laws of physics. We absolutely can dictate how it should work and the existence of any law that restricts the market from being completely free - from forbidding child labour to setting a minimum wage to antitrust - does exactly that.
Amazon just cut its affiliate commissions by 25-75% depending on the category.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/14/21221326/amazon-affiliate...
https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/14/21221326/amazon-affiliate...
One is not paid what one is worth--rather, one is paid for what the job is worth.
The US is approaching 20% unemployment. The stock market dropped ~32% from the peak, and is down about 15% from the former peak presently. But the richest person in the world has 50% more money than they did 6 months ago.
On Paper...
Converting his Paper wealth into Liquid wealth is downright impossible for Bezos. Which is why he limited to pre arranged to divestment plans.
Converting his Paper wealth into Liquid wealth is downright impossible for Bezos. Which is why he limited to pre arranged to divestment plans.
His net worth went up because investors bid his stock up because he was able to sell a lot of stuff that brick and mortars couldn't. There's no proof of profiteering.
I think the worker safety issues are completely orthogonal and shouldn't have anything to do with how profitable you are. In fact, you'll like find far worse conditions (and more tax evasion) in small local businesses than Amazon.
I think the worker safety issues are completely orthogonal and shouldn't have anything to do with how profitable you are. In fact, you'll like find far worse conditions (and more tax evasion) in small local businesses than Amazon.
If a company's stock price increase, does that mean a company should pay workers higher than market salaries?
No. Hopefully those companies do stock grants, so the workers can get a cut of the growth.
In Amazons case that is what happens.
Hasn't been that way for years: https://fortune.com/2018/10/03/amazon-warehouse-workers-mini...
> perhaps its time for governments to expect better treatment for Amazon employees.
Not sure why it is government's business unless some law is being violated. Using government to enforce "I feel good about it" policies through violence is a sure shot way to harming everyone.
Treatment given to Amazon (or any other employee) employee has nothing to do with the profits of the company, it is all about what the competitors are able to give to those employees.
Constant vilification of factories and large manufacturing corps eventually took all those jobs to China, same might happen with tech companies as well.
Not sure why it is government's business unless some law is being violated. Using government to enforce "I feel good about it" policies through violence is a sure shot way to harming everyone.
Treatment given to Amazon (or any other employee) employee has nothing to do with the profits of the company, it is all about what the competitors are able to give to those employees.
Constant vilification of factories and large manufacturing corps eventually took all those jobs to China, same might happen with tech companies as well.
Instead of the companies footing the full bill of their comp, the employees have to lean on social programs to survive.
Been buying a lot of stuff on eBay. On the app, you can filter by Guaranteed Delivery 1 to 4 days. If it doesn't make it by the guaranteed date, you get a $5 credit to your eBay account. It's also frequently cheaper for new stuff. For example, water bottles and bluetooth adapters.
And if you really want to save money and have patience, just sort by Price + Shipping: Lowest First.
Problem is that return policy for Amazon is excellent, but completely nonexistent or cumbersome with other suppliers. That in itself is pretty much a deal breaker for competitors.
Newegg and Monoprice have been pretty good for me.
Have you had good return experiences with NewEgg?
I recently ordered a $100 drawer shelf for a 12U rolling AV cart. The shelf was deeper than described so it jutted past the back of the rack. I sought a return. For which NewEgg charged $70 in return freight and a $15 restocking fee. Meaning I lost $85 and a few hours of time because NewEgg wouldn’t stand by the specs on their site.
To add insult to injury, the first step of their return policy is a YouTube video. As if part returns are so complicated. Amazon blows. But not like this.
I’m just one data point. Maybe an exception. I will never do business with NE again (but I still love how they fight patent trolls)
I recently ordered a $100 drawer shelf for a 12U rolling AV cart. The shelf was deeper than described so it jutted past the back of the rack. I sought a return. For which NewEgg charged $70 in return freight and a $15 restocking fee. Meaning I lost $85 and a few hours of time because NewEgg wouldn’t stand by the specs on their site.
To add insult to injury, the first step of their return policy is a YouTube video. As if part returns are so complicated. Amazon blows. But not like this.
I’m just one data point. Maybe an exception. I will never do business with NE again (but I still love how they fight patent trolls)
It’s been a while since I had to return something so thanks fort that info,
I feel like there's a lack of good price comparison websites in US and Canada. I'm used to e.g. PriceSpy which compares thousands of stores. Just as an example showing 42 different stores selling this particular SSD https://pricespy.co.uk/computers-accessories/storage-media/h...
Whenever I search for something like that for US/Canada I end up on a site that indexes Amazon/ebay with affiliate links.
Whenever I search for something like that for US/Canada I end up on a site that indexes Amazon/ebay with affiliate links.
I second this. PriceSpy is so incredibly useful. I've recently moved from New Zealand to Australia and PriceSpy doesn't offer their service here. It is now so much more difficult to figure out where to get the best price. I took it for granted and now have to make do with the mediocre https://www.priceme.com.au/.
Same story in the US. Back in the day there were multiple price engines that were super effective at finding the best price. I remember PriceGrabber and even Google Shopping being really useful.
I think the affiliate links destroyed them all, removing the incentive for them to offer the best price and instead only serve up the most profitable (to them) links.
I think the affiliate links destroyed them all, removing the incentive for them to offer the best price and instead only serve up the most profitable (to them) links.
For me it's been:
- NewEgg for electronics
- Walmart/Target. You have to be careful with walmart as that they have an open market place
- Aliexpress for assorted small things that I can wait on
- Abebooks (although they're owned by amazon :( ) for used books
- Vitacost (owned by koger) for supplements/vitimins etc
I've gone through 2018, 2019, and 2020 so far without placing a single Amazon order.
- NewEgg for electronics
- Walmart/Target. You have to be careful with walmart as that they have an open market place
- Aliexpress for assorted small things that I can wait on
- Abebooks (although they're owned by amazon :( ) for used books
- Vitacost (owned by koger) for supplements/vitimins etc
I've gone through 2018, 2019, and 2020 so far without placing a single Amazon order.
Walmart has an option to filter by retailer, so one can do a search, then filter by retailer "walmart.com," which avoids third party vendors.
It's a bit annoying to have to do this on every search, though.
It's a bit annoying to have to do this on every search, though.
I like Aliexpress because most of the times I can even chat with the manufacturer/distributor themselves and clarify doubts/discuss specific requirements. Also, most of the times, the senders (based on their address) seem to be local distributors/traders and sometimes manufacturers - feels more direct (even though I guess that the websites have their cut / the guy working hard on it maybe gets only a small percentage).
Step 1: Live somewhere where online shopping other than with Amazon actually works.
(You can think what you want about Amazon, but it's a remarkably provincial piece.)
(You can think what you want about Amazon, but it's a remarkably provincial piece.)
It's a piece in a UK newspaper: obviously they're going to focus on the situation for most of their readers and the options that somebody in the UK might have for online shopping. It's not trying to be a survey of the whole global online shopping market or a resource for people in Brazil or Turkey, and frankly it would be an entirely different and much less useful article if it attempted that.
> much less useful
depends on who you are. If you live in the UK, sure. If you live anywhere else, this article is not very useful.
depends on who you are. If you live in the UK, sure. If you live anywhere else, this article is not very useful.
I think an attempt at a world-spanning set of recommendations would have been spread so thinly as to be useless for everybody, even if in theory it covered their region. I think it's better to have an article that picks a country/region to focus on and does that in depth. Some other journalists/newspapers can handle doing similar articles for the US, Japan, Germany, etc, and as local journos they'll have more experience of what they're writing about and a wider array of contacts to get good suggestions from.
The "definitive guide" title is an exaggeration, but the article mentions U.S. alternatives like Target and Sephora.
In the book "The Everything Store," Jeff Bezos mentions that the public tends to hate companies as they get bigger and that managing the company's image is very important.
All politics aside, I find it very interesting that this seems to be a law that people just think companies are evil when they are big.
All politics aside, I find it very interesting that this seems to be a law that people just think companies are evil when they are big.
I think it makes sense. When you're small, you don't have a lot of power. If you create CodyStore tomorrow and do things I don't like, I'll just ignore you. When you become as large as Amazon, you start crowding out competition and so even if I don't like some of Amazon's actions, I have no choice - I end up doing business with them regardless of my personal feelings.
Plus, as you get bigger, you start looking at how you can marginally increase your growth. You go from "just make people happy" to "we could probably exclude a lot of low-margin items from Prime shipping and not see cancelations while improving our profits". You start trying to tie things together so that if people want one part of your experience, they need to accept other parts. You start trying to figure out how to optimize your labor cost, potentially in ways that aren't great for your workers. You start getting a lot of people that can improve the company in ways that aren't necessarily evil, but aren't exactly friendly. By this time, people don't really have an alternative.
I mean, a lot of people loved Walmart when it was new. It was this all-in-one store with great prices. Over time, competing businesses were crowded out of the market by Walmart and customers had less choice. It also meant that retail labor had less choice with Walmart becoming a greater percentage of the jobs. It also meant that businesses selling things like TVs had less choice and Walmart could pressure them.
I think power is ultimately pretty toxic. Amazon has succeeded in part because it's really good at what it does. However, another part of its success is the power it exerts on competitors, over labor, over suppliers, and over customers. Small companies just never have power to exert so they can never seem that unfriendly. Unfriendly small companies just cease to exist or at least can be ignored. Unfriendly large companies can use their power to force a lot of things to try and keep their throne.
Plus, as you get bigger, you start looking at how you can marginally increase your growth. You go from "just make people happy" to "we could probably exclude a lot of low-margin items from Prime shipping and not see cancelations while improving our profits". You start trying to tie things together so that if people want one part of your experience, they need to accept other parts. You start trying to figure out how to optimize your labor cost, potentially in ways that aren't great for your workers. You start getting a lot of people that can improve the company in ways that aren't necessarily evil, but aren't exactly friendly. By this time, people don't really have an alternative.
I mean, a lot of people loved Walmart when it was new. It was this all-in-one store with great prices. Over time, competing businesses were crowded out of the market by Walmart and customers had less choice. It also meant that retail labor had less choice with Walmart becoming a greater percentage of the jobs. It also meant that businesses selling things like TVs had less choice and Walmart could pressure them.
I think power is ultimately pretty toxic. Amazon has succeeded in part because it's really good at what it does. However, another part of its success is the power it exerts on competitors, over labor, over suppliers, and over customers. Small companies just never have power to exert so they can never seem that unfriendly. Unfriendly small companies just cease to exist or at least can be ignored. Unfriendly large companies can use their power to force a lot of things to try and keep their throne.
These are really good points and I agree with the idea of what you're saying 100%. I also agree with the specifics of Amazon and where they have clearly gone past the "nice guy" line.
I would love to hear if there are examples of companies that have "done everything right" that are still loved. I feel like there is a natural journalistic hatred towards anyone very large (and sometimes it is totally deserved). Perhaps there are no pure large companies and that's why...or perhaps most business decisions are tradeoffs where either side won't please everyone and that just opens up room for attack. I really don't know the answer (even if we agree that Amazon deserves the negative press).
I would love to hear if there are examples of companies that have "done everything right" that are still loved. I feel like there is a natural journalistic hatred towards anyone very large (and sometimes it is totally deserved). Perhaps there are no pure large companies and that's why...or perhaps most business decisions are tradeoffs where either side won't please everyone and that just opens up room for attack. I really don't know the answer (even if we agree that Amazon deserves the negative press).
In Howard Schultz's biography about Starbucks, he mentions the same phenomena. After Starbucks started getting big, activists would start attacking the company for some flaw which Starbucks knew they were the least bad in the industry in and he would get quite frustrated.
It was only after talking to activists that he realized they were also well aware that everyone else in the coffee industry was even worse than Starbucks but because they weren't as famous, activists would intentionally target the #1 player because that's the way to play the news cycle.
It was only after talking to activists that he realized they were also well aware that everyone else in the coffee industry was even worse than Starbucks but because they weren't as famous, activists would intentionally target the #1 player because that's the way to play the news cycle.
I do think when you grow bigger it's more difficult to manage your image or keep it pristine, but I don't think it's necessary that you get hated. Costco seems to be generally well liked and ubiquitous. The only real complaints I ever hear about Netflix are expiring licensed content. Disney has always had detractors, but I think they're generally well liked.
Well to produce a Blue Whale trucks loads of krill need to die. How do you think the krill feel about that law?
Replace krill with humans and sooner or later Jeff the Blue Whale needs full time protection in a special sanctuary. In Nature if the Whale gets too efficient the eco system collapses and then reboots. Stability trumps Bigness.
Book reco - Serangeti Rules - Sean Carroll.
Replace krill with humans and sooner or later Jeff the Blue Whale needs full time protection in a special sanctuary. In Nature if the Whale gets too efficient the eco system collapses and then reboots. Stability trumps Bigness.
Book reco - Serangeti Rules - Sean Carroll.
Interesting that you're getting your point of view from a book by Bezos. Regardless, people don't hate Amazon because they're big. They hate Amazon because they feel empathetic towards the thousands of workers who complain about the working conditions and how they're treated.
Whilst I'm not sure it's healthy to have one company so dominant, and whilst Amazon's product range is not perfect:
1. In terms of logistics it seems to me they handed every other logistic company's arse to them - even those that have been running for hundreds of years and thus which you might hope to have some expertise in the field, and conversely even the newer companies which you might hope are relatively unburdened by inertia etc. Prime is awesome.
2. At the risk of sounding heartless, I don't care about all the struggling small competitors. Times and industries change, and Amazon's approach is simply more efficient. Does it really benefit society to have x thousands of people running their own e-commerce business rather than finding something else to do? Should we be putting restrictions on weaving machines in order to support manual weavers? Or supporting buggy whip manufacturers by taxing car makers? Where do we draw the line?
3. I don't care about the tax avoidance etc. I'd rather see Bezos spend the money on rocketry than have governments wasting yet more on handouts. The former will probably benefit humanity more in the end.
4. Price. If Amazon weren't almost always equal or very slightly above competitors I wouldn't use it. But it is. Why should I pay more? To support ye olde historical e-commerce shoppe?
1. In terms of logistics it seems to me they handed every other logistic company's arse to them - even those that have been running for hundreds of years and thus which you might hope to have some expertise in the field, and conversely even the newer companies which you might hope are relatively unburdened by inertia etc. Prime is awesome.
2. At the risk of sounding heartless, I don't care about all the struggling small competitors. Times and industries change, and Amazon's approach is simply more efficient. Does it really benefit society to have x thousands of people running their own e-commerce business rather than finding something else to do? Should we be putting restrictions on weaving machines in order to support manual weavers? Or supporting buggy whip manufacturers by taxing car makers? Where do we draw the line?
3. I don't care about the tax avoidance etc. I'd rather see Bezos spend the money on rocketry than have governments wasting yet more on handouts. The former will probably benefit humanity more in the end.
4. Price. If Amazon weren't almost always equal or very slightly above competitors I wouldn't use it. But it is. Why should I pay more? To support ye olde historical e-commerce shoppe?
> Should we be putting restrictions on weaving machines in order to support manual weavers?
Well, we should if behind the scenes those weaving machines were kept operational by an army of low-wage workers.
Well, we should if behind the scenes those weaving machines were kept operational by an army of low-wage workers.
In the UK we had (pre-CV) virtual full employment, and a reasonable minimum wage. The average person had plenty of other options, and nobody was forcing anyone to work at Amazon.
To point 1: From my experience here in the UK, most deliveries arrive without issue. Amazon are fine here, but so are most other retailers.
To point 2: Monopolies are Bad Thing.
To point 3: You really don't believe that billionaires should pay their share, the way the rest of us do? Also, given the lockdown, there's no option but for the government to offer handouts. A huge proportion of the country is unable to work, through no fault of their own.
To point 4: You're right that economies of scale have allowed Amazon to undercut everyone else on price. WalMart did the same. I don't blame you for buying from Amazon, but the problems with their monopoly shouldn't be downplayed.
To point 2: Monopolies are Bad Thing.
To point 3: You really don't believe that billionaires should pay their share, the way the rest of us do? Also, given the lockdown, there's no option but for the government to offer handouts. A huge proportion of the country is unable to work, through no fault of their own.
To point 4: You're right that economies of scale have allowed Amazon to undercut everyone else on price. WalMart did the same. I don't blame you for buying from Amazon, but the problems with their monopoly shouldn't be downplayed.
> I'd rather see Bezos spend the money on rocketry than have governments wasting yet more on handouts.
Don't worry, the government will get the money from somewhere. If not from Amazon then from you.
Don't worry, the government will get the money from somewhere. If not from Amazon then from you.
Not sure this quite makes economic sense unless Amazon are magicing the money up from nowhere.
This article is very focused on the UK but its still possible to try and avoid supporting Amazon if you are willing to pay for shipping or use alternative outlets like EBay although many of those selling on that platform still use Amazon for fulfillment.
Well, I tried to buy an item from eBay 3 weeks ago. eBay said the article was shipped few days after the purchase. 3 weeks later, nothing came. I asked the vendor, what happened, can you give me the tracking number? The vendor's reply: "our supplier haven't given us the tracking number yet." You mean to tell me that the item hasn't been shipped yet, despite that you told me it did 3 weeks ago? Yep. That's eBay.
eBay is a mixed bag, you should review the seller accordingly. Some are good some are not. Items coming from independent sellers on Amazon could be the same.
On the other hand, eBay customer support is very friendly to buyers. Open a case the day after the advertised delivery, you will get refunded.
As a long time seller/buyer I’ve developed a set of heuristics around eBay (most of them obvious - avoid non US based accounts, descriptions where the photos are clearly not the actual item itself, etc) and I’ve only had one or two bad surprises in over 10 years. Both times customer support came through.
As a long time seller/buyer I’ve developed a set of heuristics around eBay (most of them obvious - avoid non US based accounts, descriptions where the photos are clearly not the actual item itself, etc) and I’ve only had one or two bad surprises in over 10 years. Both times customer support came through.
A little _too_ friendly.
A buyer screwed me out of 5 drone (DJI Mavic 2) batteries and $700. Two weeks after getting the drone, “none of the batteries work”. Really? All five? I was skeptical, but said I’d do a partial refund if he’d commit in writing that the partial refund was contingent on him returning the batteries so I could repair, or replace (at least two were still in warranty, if there was ever even a problem). At no point did he show any actual evidence of battery issues (DJI Go battery diagnostics, etc.), just "it's not showing anything".
He sent a message agreeing, via eBay messages with the text I'd sent him, even with "should I not do this, I understand that seller will dispute the transaction".
Not even an hour later he sent another message “USPS won’t ship damaged batteries so I am not returning them”.
I went to eBay with all this, and his agreement. eBay said he could keep the $700. And the five batteries.
A buyer screwed me out of 5 drone (DJI Mavic 2) batteries and $700. Two weeks after getting the drone, “none of the batteries work”. Really? All five? I was skeptical, but said I’d do a partial refund if he’d commit in writing that the partial refund was contingent on him returning the batteries so I could repair, or replace (at least two were still in warranty, if there was ever even a problem). At no point did he show any actual evidence of battery issues (DJI Go battery diagnostics, etc.), just "it's not showing anything".
He sent a message agreeing, via eBay messages with the text I'd sent him, even with "should I not do this, I understand that seller will dispute the transaction".
Not even an hour later he sent another message “USPS won’t ship damaged batteries so I am not returning them”.
I went to eBay with all this, and his agreement. eBay said he could keep the $700. And the five batteries.
I had this problem maybe once in my life using eBay. The other 99% of the time it has worked great, but I'm sorry you had a bad experience :(
>although many of those selling on that platform still use Amazon for fulfillment.
That’s what makes me weary that there’s any way you can truly avoid Amazon. For many sellers it’s just easier to outsource their warehousing and fulfillment operations to FBA and use Amazon’s warehouse as a 3PL (third party logistics), and I wouldn’t be surprised if <random eBay/Shopify seller> used Amazon for fulfillment purposes.
That’s what makes me weary that there’s any way you can truly avoid Amazon. For many sellers it’s just easier to outsource their warehousing and fulfillment operations to FBA and use Amazon’s warehouse as a 3PL (third party logistics), and I wouldn’t be surprised if <random eBay/Shopify seller> used Amazon for fulfillment purposes.
I have done most of my pandemic shopping on Amazon, but have had luck with 4/5 externally run sites, most of which are on shopify. In the first 3 weeks after the first shelter in place orders, Amazon was about a week slower than the rest. Now it switched, and it seems Amazon is faster again. However I am now regularly doing business with a few other sites that have products Amazon doesn't.
In Germany: go to Amazon.de, search for the product. Check if it’s available from third party sellers. Copy the seller’s name, google for their online shop. If they have one, buy direct. Bit clunky but pretty often cheaper.
Also pay on delivery, make the delivery guy wait 5 minutes and open the package -> test 5 minutes for obvious flaws. This is the best way and cheaper.
Do treat the delivery guy with something though, I usually offer homemade sweets and/or free alcohol beer. They deserve it.
Do treat the delivery guy with something though, I usually offer homemade sweets and/or free alcohol beer. They deserve it.
I do that, too, but only as a last resort. Usually idealo or Google is sufficient to track a shop down.
I haven't bought anything from Amazon for about 5 years, because I moved, but I really feel uncomfortable about Amazon bashing. I think Amazon has done a huge favor for online stores. I think AWS is incredible service that powers a lot of great online services. You absolutely should criticize Amazon for poor labor practices and you are free to avoid buying from them on ethical grounds. But I think it the end you might hurt more people you are trying to protect. We all love to have our favorite evils. Facebook yesterday, Amazon today, Microsoft ten years ago. But the history teaches us that the only effective way to limit monopolies and stop them from abusing their powers is strong government actions. Boycotts don't work.
Boycotts seem to have some effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boycotts
Title should be updated to specify that this is UK only. The Guardian is UK-based but covers international news as well.
If it was US focused, would it be ok to not have US in the title?
I wonder if it is thanks to Amazon that so many other online retailers are now offering service "as good as Amazon".
Because they have to. It certainly wasn't always the case.
Because they have to. It certainly wasn't always the case.
For many hardware and photography needs, I will choose B&H instead of Amazon.
Not only photography, anything dropped shipped from a warehouse. For example, if I need a printer or laptop in a pinch B&H will get it to me pretty quick. Pretty much anything electronics wise they are great source.
Going back to photography, you totally trust B&H. You know the equipment has been treated well since it arrived from the factory. No chance of grey market stuff either.
Going back to photography, you totally trust B&H. You know the equipment has been treated well since it arrived from the factory. No chance of grey market stuff either.
Does anyone have further CD (or FLAC) vendors they'd recommend for uncensored music? I often have a hard time finding CDs outside of Amazon or FLACs beyond Bandcamp. For example, Con by Tegan & Sara, The Jungle Is The Only Way Out by Mereba (which even Amazon doesn't have in CD), and Blueprint by Ferry Corsten. I didn't see them on Very, Zavvi, or Hive mentioned in the article.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI5SXM6 https://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Only-Way-Out-Explicit/dp/B07NZ... https://www.amazon.com/Blueprint-FERRY-CORSTEN/dp/B071S3RLL3
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DI5SXM6 https://www.amazon.com/Jungle-Only-Way-Out-Explicit/dp/B07NZ... https://www.amazon.com/Blueprint-FERRY-CORSTEN/dp/B071S3RLL3
Normally the media in the UK can't have 'how to avoid retailer x' articles as that means 'retailer x' isn't going to place adverts in their paper. However, online, I imagine it does not matter, ads just arrive without negotiation between 'retailer x' and the publication/paper.
Currently avoiding Amazon however I can't get a garden sieve/riddle in my preferred local store. So I have to go on Amazon if I really want one.
My local store has a sieve for £5 when in stock. That is all the sieve options, take it or leave it. The decision is easy. But, on Amazon, there is paralysis of choice. Hundreds of sieves to choose from, invariably more expensive than the £5 local store price. With shipping on top.
The choice works with books but not with everything. A decent retailer only sells top quality stuff with an affordable option and maybe a super deluxe option, so your choice is between a small amount of items. Amazon doesn't help with that.
Currently avoiding Amazon however I can't get a garden sieve/riddle in my preferred local store. So I have to go on Amazon if I really want one.
My local store has a sieve for £5 when in stock. That is all the sieve options, take it or leave it. The decision is easy. But, on Amazon, there is paralysis of choice. Hundreds of sieves to choose from, invariably more expensive than the £5 local store price. With shipping on top.
The choice works with books but not with everything. A decent retailer only sells top quality stuff with an affordable option and maybe a super deluxe option, so your choice is between a small amount of items. Amazon doesn't help with that.
I order from https://bookshop.org. It's a sort of umbrella for local bookstores: one storefront, many vendors. I select my favorite local bookstore and support them.
It’s hard to beat Amazon on prices though. For comparison, look at the prices of best sellers. Sometimes the difference is as much as 40%. Trying bookofthemonth.com for a change.
I got sick of Amazon trying to squeeze the last cent from me that I now consciously avoid it, even in case it is "the cheapest".
It happened to me many time that Amazon show me higher price when I go there and search directly, then when I open the same product page by copy&pasting the Amazon url in the incognito window.
Not to mention that coming to Amazon through the idealo.de or some other meta engine gives sometimes even better price.
To hell with them, most of the competition in Germany doesn't do those scummy things. And the delivery and return policies are mandated by law anyway.
It happened to me many time that Amazon show me higher price when I go there and search directly, then when I open the same product page by copy&pasting the Amazon url in the incognito window.
Not to mention that coming to Amazon through the idealo.de or some other meta engine gives sometimes even better price.
To hell with them, most of the competition in Germany doesn't do those scummy things. And the delivery and return policies are mandated by law anyway.
I see a lot of articles trying to reason their dislike for Amazon into logical dot points. I think it's enough to just not like the idea of any entity having so much of the general market.
It's like "Let's buy something not made in China"... Amazon is very convenient and at some point addictive (same day or 2 days delivery) way of online shopping. They got big enough that now they can dictate rules. So unless some other company with really great customer service, delivery speed, and return policy comes up, Amazon will be dominant in the US and Europe. Alibaba/AliExpress is an asian amazon.
Given https://www.marketwatch.com/story/facebook-google-amazon-to-...
Then why is this not only overlooked by this article, but not even touched upon. That I find most curious.
Then why is this not only overlooked by this article, but not even touched upon. That I find most curious.
I recently found out of a site (https://syessa.com) selling household items (hand soap, detergent, dish liquid, etc.) at equal to or cheaper prices than Amazon. Better to support small businesses! I ordered from them last thursday and received my order today.
How to avoid Amazon: Try shopping for anything and you will find it's all sold out or delayed by a month.
[deleted]
[deleted]
I've discovered if you search for local online shops you get poor results, but if you visit the websites of local businesses, quite a few have implemented home delivery. I guess they aren't good at SEO.
I was on Amazon a few weeks ago, clicked on the ratings graph, and was returned a page with nothing but an ascii art dog. The company just seems to be a mess.
Amazon used to be good for more obscure, hard to find things. I now use Ebay for such stuff. It is more transparent and I can communicate directly with seller.
They mention Target as an alternative in this. What makes them better/different?
Ok, let me try for the US:
newegg.com (Electronics)
alibris.com (books)
monoprice.com (electronics)
bhphotovideo.com (photo)
purebulk.com (dietary supplements)
ebay.com (everything)
newegg.com (Electronics)
alibris.com (books)
monoprice.com (electronics)
bhphotovideo.com (photo)
purebulk.com (dietary supplements)
ebay.com (everything)
Can't you use a service such as pricerunner.com or pricespy.co.uk
We’re explaining the basics of shopping to people now for clicks...
No Amazon in South Africa... That makes it easier to avoid them :P
i needed a 12mm masonry bit to floor-mount an amazon safe i ordered and was surprised to find that in a local diy store the drill bit was £1.99 and on amazon it was £12.99.
Why would anyone buy anything from Amazon?
Do people not know how to shop online outside of Amazon?
I'm not paying more to buy things through other platforms. If something is the same price on Amazon as it is elsewhere - the other place will lose until they have faster shipping or some other benefit. And this is coming from someone who buys a lot of stuff elsewhere and does a lot more than the average consumer when it comes to shopping. I do buy stuff elsewhere frequently. (I just spent $600 on soldering equipment through TEquipment, Louis Rossman's store, and some Amazon stuff because I couldn't find the stuff elsewhere for cheaper) The reason I do it isn't because I'm anti-Amazon - I buy stuff through various sources because I'm a thoroughbred slickdealer. (And you can bet your butt I looked up all those items to see if there were ever any deals on them or if I could get them used for cheaper - odd stuff doesn't get posted much about, sadly)
So, yeah, I buy stuff outside of Amazon... However, I'm a bit annoyed because I feel like the quality control is really bad at other sources far too often. With some shops I feel like they're gonna call me up and say, "Hey, I noticed you bought X, Y, and Z, do you want to buy this too?" And this just pads delivery time by days. They're slow to ship often enough as well. You buy an item online but you didn't know the shop was closed for 2 weeks. Sometimes - it's good. I remember I got $100 off my vacuum cleaner because they offered free overnight shipping for these vacuum cleaners - but I could get $100 off the price if I chose ground shipping. (Not an option online) That was worth knowing but that's rare! Most of the time I get a call like, "I noticed you bought X which is an accessory to Y, and Y wasn't in your order, do you want to buy Y?" No, of course not. I didn't buy Y because you charge too much for it and I can get it for cheaper elsewhere!
On top of this - even big names mess up too often! I tried to buy an Elgato capture card off through Bestbuy this last week. It wasn't even available anywhere else except Bestbuy. I used Google Shopping in the process because it was quicker/easier than going through Bestbuy's website. In the end - I got shipped a god damn microwave that I had to return today via UPS. Huge pain in the ass. I had to go to the local UPS store twice because I went too early (never thought that would happen!) to the UPS store the first time. (They're open 11-5) Yes, that stuff could happen with Amazon but I feel like they might have slightly better inventory management than that and would recognize when a 50lb+ item is being shipped instead of a 1lb. Surprisingly, the shipping labels (both ways) were only for objects < 5lbs. And yet UPS took them both times.
Target - same crap. Order something for store pickup even - no go. They cancel the order days later saying it isn't in stock. Home Depot? Fulfills half your order when you clearly need the whole thing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22795970 I avoid store pickup when I can now. It's usually faster for me to find the item(s) in store and go through self-checkout than to wait in line at pickup.
I'm not pro-Amazon but I am not pro-poor experience for the same or more price. There's a reason Amazon is doing well compared to the competition and it's because they've made it much lower friction.
I'm not paying more to buy things through other platforms. If something is the same price on Amazon as it is elsewhere - the other place will lose until they have faster shipping or some other benefit. And this is coming from someone who buys a lot of stuff elsewhere and does a lot more than the average consumer when it comes to shopping. I do buy stuff elsewhere frequently. (I just spent $600 on soldering equipment through TEquipment, Louis Rossman's store, and some Amazon stuff because I couldn't find the stuff elsewhere for cheaper) The reason I do it isn't because I'm anti-Amazon - I buy stuff through various sources because I'm a thoroughbred slickdealer. (And you can bet your butt I looked up all those items to see if there were ever any deals on them or if I could get them used for cheaper - odd stuff doesn't get posted much about, sadly)
So, yeah, I buy stuff outside of Amazon... However, I'm a bit annoyed because I feel like the quality control is really bad at other sources far too often. With some shops I feel like they're gonna call me up and say, "Hey, I noticed you bought X, Y, and Z, do you want to buy this too?" And this just pads delivery time by days. They're slow to ship often enough as well. You buy an item online but you didn't know the shop was closed for 2 weeks. Sometimes - it's good. I remember I got $100 off my vacuum cleaner because they offered free overnight shipping for these vacuum cleaners - but I could get $100 off the price if I chose ground shipping. (Not an option online) That was worth knowing but that's rare! Most of the time I get a call like, "I noticed you bought X which is an accessory to Y, and Y wasn't in your order, do you want to buy Y?" No, of course not. I didn't buy Y because you charge too much for it and I can get it for cheaper elsewhere!
On top of this - even big names mess up too often! I tried to buy an Elgato capture card off through Bestbuy this last week. It wasn't even available anywhere else except Bestbuy. I used Google Shopping in the process because it was quicker/easier than going through Bestbuy's website. In the end - I got shipped a god damn microwave that I had to return today via UPS. Huge pain in the ass. I had to go to the local UPS store twice because I went too early (never thought that would happen!) to the UPS store the first time. (They're open 11-5) Yes, that stuff could happen with Amazon but I feel like they might have slightly better inventory management than that and would recognize when a 50lb+ item is being shipped instead of a 1lb. Surprisingly, the shipping labels (both ways) were only for objects < 5lbs. And yet UPS took them both times.
Target - same crap. Order something for store pickup even - no go. They cancel the order days later saying it isn't in stock. Home Depot? Fulfills half your order when you clearly need the whole thing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22795970 I avoid store pickup when I can now. It's usually faster for me to find the item(s) in store and go through self-checkout than to wait in line at pickup.
I'm not pro-Amazon but I am not pro-poor experience for the same or more price. There's a reason Amazon is doing well compared to the competition and it's because they've made it much lower friction.
Why do we hate Amazon again?
Let's hope none of those sites use AWS...
My books from Amazon almost always arrive bent, dirty, etc. I order from the publishers whenever possible.
How do you find the prices? I’ve only ever looked on Amazon but even for new releases they seem to be considerably discounted from the publisher’s list price.
Good question. It depends on the publisher. I usually look up both. If Amazon is significantly cheaper (tens of dollars), then I'll order from Amazon. If they send me garbage, I'll order from the publisher and return the Amazon book.
I may be in a niche circumstance, but most of the books I order from the publishers are within about $5 of Amazon. I don't know the exact count, but I have approximately 600 books. Worth it to have nice ones!
I may be in a niche circumstance, but most of the books I order from the publishers are within about $5 of Amazon. I don't know the exact count, but I have approximately 600 books. Worth it to have nice ones!
Is avoiding Amazon so hard that a guide is needed? I have only ever purchased something from Amazon once because someone gave me a gift card. It wasn't any cheaper or more convenient than ebay so I'm not sure what the craze over Amazon is about.
[deleted]
No problem or hassle whatsoever. I just find a shop (usually idealo), then I order - done.
It's so simple, there's not much to write about - lest a guide.
> You can often cut out the middleman if you are buying electronics. For computers, phones and TVs, Dell, Apple and Samsung are all offering free delivery on their products
That's why the guide goes beyond its purported goal and tries to avoid other shops as well?
> Environmentally friendly cleaning products, pet food and baby gear are available at Ethicalsupermarket.com. Standard delivery in the UK is free on orders over £50, or £3.95 on smaller orders.
Then specific shops and information about shipping?
Whatever - useless text. Just order somewhere else. It's that easy. (at least in Germany) (yes, I hate Amazon - yes, I make a living with AWS)
---
Special love goes to:
- booklooker.de
- medimops.de
- notebookgalerie.de
- thalia.de
- mcgin.de