US universities announcing online Fall 2020(kmjn.org)
kmjn.org
US universities announcing online Fall 2020
https://www.kmjn.org/notes/online_fall2020.html
55 comments
They might, because it keeps them in the cohort for next year.
I don’t think a lot of Harvard kids are going to drop out and head to state school, and Harvard knows it.
I don’t think a lot of Harvard kids are going to drop out and head to state school, and Harvard knows it.
Right, but is Harvard going to deny students from deferring admission for a year? I would assume the number of students attempting to defer this year is 10x what it normally.
In other words, they are buying elitism. Ivy League educations are not for everyone.
I don't think recruiters attach the same value to online degrees offered even by major universities.
Even if that's true, if everyone is going to be learning online now then this will be a moot point.
Maybe class of 2024 is just going to be a lost generation if this keeps up. I know some recruiters keep these factors in mind for entry level.
College degrees are already oversaturated in the job market.
Their value in terms of actual employability is basically what HS was 30 years ago.
Short pd some HR bean counters and the universities themselves most in the private sector don’t put too much stock in them.
A degree from the relatively small local college is about the same as big state. Ivy is it’s own thing for sure.
Their value in terms of actual employability is basically what HS was 30 years ago.
Short pd some HR bean counters and the universities themselves most in the private sector don’t put too much stock in them.
A degree from the relatively small local college is about the same as big state. Ivy is it’s own thing for sure.
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So a place like Harvard has enough money in the bank to waive fees for everyone for a semester or even a year. There would be PR benefits and it avoids confronting the more fundamental and difficult question of what the the price of education should be. Are any ivies considering this move ?
Unless your four-year is paid for, community college for core curriculum is a better and better deal every year.
It depends a lot on the community college. My wife has taught at community colleges and 4 year universities, and she said that the students who transferred from community colleges were frequently very unprepared for a 4 year university. Like, they would struggle to write more than 1 page and have no idea what citations are.
I think the parent comment is implying that college diplomas are better at helping people get a job and earn a living.
Writing 1+ page essays and MLA citation formatting is work that seems to only exist in academia. It wouldn't surprise me if community college educated people transferring to university programs needed a refresher on that stuff.
Writing 1+ page essays and MLA citation formatting is work that seems to only exist in academia. It wouldn't surprise me if community college educated people transferring to university programs needed a refresher on that stuff.
Writing 1+ page essays and MLA citation formatting is work that seems to only exist in academia.
Proper written communication and literature searching skills are demanded everywhere in the workplace. Doesn't everyone dread getting muddled, poorly formatted emails because you have to guess the meaning or write back and forth several times to find out what's going on?
I don't get the pervasive hostility to education and academia in this forum. Granted, much of high school and regional college is piss-poor, but instead of writing off all of university as useless one should demand proper performance.
Proper written communication and literature searching skills are demanded everywhere in the workplace. Doesn't everyone dread getting muddled, poorly formatted emails because you have to guess the meaning or write back and forth several times to find out what's going on?
I don't get the pervasive hostility to education and academia in this forum. Granted, much of high school and regional college is piss-poor, but instead of writing off all of university as useless one should demand proper performance.
> Proper written communication and literature searching skills are demanded everywhere in the workplace.
I'm getting deja vu:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23496234
Seems the experience is very different in differing work places.
> Doesn't everyone dread getting muddled, poorly formatted emails because you have to guess the meaning or write back and forth several times to find out what's going on?
This is the norm at my (very successful and large) company.
> I don't get the pervasive hostility to education and academia in this forum.
I'm very pro-education, but I will point out that all the people I know who write very poorly have formal education, and often graduate degrees. Culture will dictate how well you write much, much more than education. If the work culture doesn't value it, people will write poorly.
I'm getting deja vu:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23496234
Seems the experience is very different in differing work places.
> Doesn't everyone dread getting muddled, poorly formatted emails because you have to guess the meaning or write back and forth several times to find out what's going on?
This is the norm at my (very successful and large) company.
> I don't get the pervasive hostility to education and academia in this forum.
I'm very pro-education, but I will point out that all the people I know who write very poorly have formal education, and often graduate degrees. Culture will dictate how well you write much, much more than education. If the work culture doesn't value it, people will write poorly.
>Proper written communication and literature searching skills are demanded everywhere in the workplace.
Proper written communication, absolutely. However, you can argue that people don't need 4 years of writing essays in order to comprise emails or PowerPoints. As for literature searching, what does that mean in a normal office environment context?
Proper written communication, absolutely. However, you can argue that people don't need 4 years of writing essays in order to comprise emails or PowerPoints. As for literature searching, what does that mean in a normal office environment context?
My students have to write lab protocols. In General Chemistry class they were filling in worksheets (seriously, are they paying tuition to fill in worksheets?), now they get to write 8 - 10 pages for each organic lab about the context, what they did and what is all means. The initial attempts are universally lousy, but they do improve. One hopes that the improved writing skills carry over to other kinds of written communication. It's just sad that expectations in the first semesters are set so low, it's really a tyranny of low expectation.
Footnoting means to put stuff into proper context. Of course you need literature searching skills to put stuff into proper context, and you need to know where to find documentation for your field of work.
Footnoting means to put stuff into proper context. Of course you need literature searching skills to put stuff into proper context, and you need to know where to find documentation for your field of work.
As someone who went to community college and is intimately familiar with transfer agreements with universities, this sounds like a problem with the curriculum agreement universities have with community colleges. It's something that gets reviewed annually and guarantees that certain courses transfer over as equivalent to specific university courses. If the expectations are mismatched on what was covered in those courses, then there wasn't a thorough enough assessment of equivalencies.
In my opinion it would be crazy to pay $50k of tuition for a few zoom lectures per week, and I think a lot of colleges are aware of this. In response, many of them seem to be doing a "hybrid" approach, where undergrads are allowed to come on campus, but all instruction will be online (Harvard for example). This seems to defeat the purpose of not having in person classes in the first place. I think it shows how much of a pickle they are in.
Safer for the professors though.
Safer in a health sense, but I fear once Academia realizes that lectures can be recorded and supplemented with some office hours for questions. The life of an academic will become tenuous..teaching in real time over Zoom is only a short order of magnitude above a well structured pre-recorded lecture series. At least in my experience.
Universities have figured this out a long time ago, and have been cutting all sorts of corners in instruction (Despite the growth in tuition.)
The life of an academic is tenuous already, and a lot of instruction is done by poorly-paid, untenured sessionals. Tenured positions are in 2020, rare as hen's teeth.
The life of an academic is tenuous already, and a lot of instruction is done by poorly-paid, untenured sessionals. Tenured positions are in 2020, rare as hen's teeth.
Since this topic has been a bit click-baitey recently, I was expecting yet another busy page with ads and popups and stock photos of students. It was so refreshing to see just a list of universities with text.
Thanks! I started collecting the announcements as part of discussions we're having in my department about the fall semester, and thought I might as well stick the list up on my blog.
Two things:
a) There is no way this list is even slightly close to comprehensive.
b) What is the purpose of this?
a) There is no way this list is even slightly close to comprehensive.
b) What is the purpose of this?
I have a child who is entering his senior high school year. This is very interesting to me in terms of thinking about which schools to apply to. I know this is not for 2021, but I think everyone realizes what happens in Fall of 2020 will have repercussions in Fall 2021. Does that make sense? I can elaborate.
Also, I agree this is not close to comprehensive, but the best I have seen. If someone here can keep a more comprehensive status I promise you many parents would pay something for access to that status.
Also, I agree this is not close to comprehensive, but the best I have seen. If someone here can keep a more comprehensive status I promise you many parents would pay something for access to that status.
> Also, I agree this is not close to comprehensive, but the best I have seen. If someone here can keep a more comprehensive status I promise you many parents would pay something for access to that status.
For those interested, two more exhaustive sources[0][1], one of which is linked in the footnotes of OP.
[0] https://www.chronicle.com/article/Here-s-a-List-of-Colleges-... [1] https://collegecrisis.shinyapps.io/dashboard/
For those interested, two more exhaustive sources[0][1], one of which is linked in the footnotes of OP.
[0] https://www.chronicle.com/article/Here-s-a-List-of-Colleges-... [1] https://collegecrisis.shinyapps.io/dashboard/
Thank you!
Universities are hurting for revenue and will be remote for the near future. A benefit to this: right now presents a unique opportunity to get a Masters or a post-bacc.
You can take classes without needing to move/commute to campus. Furthermore, given a work from home environment and a more flexible schedule, many people will be able to make it work without needing to quit their full-time job.
If I ran a struggling university right now I'd lean into this and still be open to applications for the fall semester. This could attract a lot of working professionals like me.
You can take classes without needing to move/commute to campus. Furthermore, given a work from home environment and a more flexible schedule, many people will be able to make it work without needing to quit their full-time job.
If I ran a struggling university right now I'd lean into this and still be open to applications for the fall semester. This could attract a lot of working professionals like me.
It's interesting that while Pomona, Pitzer, Claremont McKenna and Scripps have all committed to online, Harvey Mudd College is still planning to be on-campus https://www.hmc.edu/coronavirus-information/2020/07/16/updat...
They have 540 out of 812 students planning to live on campus. I somehow don't see this working out.
They have 540 out of 812 students planning to live on campus. I somehow don't see this working out.
The Claremont McKenna announcement says that they don't think LA County is going to let them hold in-person classes, so they didn't really have a choice. Unless they're misreading hints from officials, seems like Harvey Mudd isn't going to have in-person classes either. Less clear about dorms; those might be allowed to open for students taking online courses (the model Harvard is using).
How long until credentials get phished and all university material is dumped online for free.
One of the rare opportunities where hacking could do good for humanity as a whole.
One of the rare opportunities where hacking could do good for humanity as a whole.
"All university material" is not just in one place ready to be stolen. In most classes I took, all the material was already available for free online (on public sites created by the staff). There isn't really any "hidden" knowledge that you could gain by hacking them.
You can already get a world-class education for nearly-free, if you're willing to devote thousands of hours of your time into it.
Very few people take advantage of it - because the credential is more important than the knowledge.
Very few people take advantage of it - because the credential is more important than the knowledge.
It's also the structure that a formal class affords that makes it more effective. This is part of the appeal of book clubs (yes, part of it is, for some people, the opportunity to hang out with people and drink wine and eat cheese): some externally imposed structure makes it easier to commit to learning something. Paying for an opportunity also tends to make people more likely to honor their commitment.
I find it's sometimes hard to figure out a quality source of knowledge, and sometimes it's hard to figure out what specifically you need to learn sequentially.
For example, when I was learning how to code years back, I literally had no idea what language I should start with. I learned from a top->down approach, but the benefits from a university is they lay it out so you get a bottom->up understanding.
For example, when I was learning how to code years back, I literally had no idea what language I should start with. I learned from a top->down approach, but the benefits from a university is they lay it out so you get a bottom->up understanding.
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Do they give you tuition discount as foreign student when it's all online?
Generally, no. And Generally, when it is a foreign student, they pay an extra fee on top of the tuition.
So. There's that.
So. There's that.
The ones I know of (mine included) aren't giving any discount. They only waive the room and board but you have to pay everything else....
Why don’t the students do a bit of collective bargaining? Reduced tuition or you all take the semester off.
because no student is going to pull out of Harvard over this
at the end of the day, every single student will put their own interests over taking a stand here
the universities have the leverage
at the end of the day, every single student will put their own interests over taking a stand here
the universities have the leverage
If the amount to be paid is agreeable for the services expected to rendered, why would you want to take a stand?
If the amount to be paid is not agreeable for the services expected to be rendered, why would you want to utilize said services?
There does not seem to be any reason for a group to take a stand. It is either worth it or it isn't. If it is, everyone is happy. If it isn't, there is no loss in not seeing the transaction take place.
If the amount to be paid is not agreeable for the services expected to be rendered, why would you want to utilize said services?
There does not seem to be any reason for a group to take a stand. It is either worth it or it isn't. If it is, everyone is happy. If it isn't, there is no loss in not seeing the transaction take place.
An in person education is maybe worth $30,000 a year, but should it not be worth $20,000 if the instruction delivered online?
Hard to say. We would need to look at the level of profit the college is making from this new arrangement.
Hard to say. We would need to look at the level of profit the college is making from this new arrangement.
If it delivers the same value to the student, shouldn't it still be worth $30,000? The input costs are irrelevant.
If it is only worth $20,000 now, which may very well be true, value has been lost. So, what value is lost? I imagine it will be a lot harder to make new friends and find new lovers when you spend your time at home on a computer instead of mingling at school.
Were people previously paying $10,000 per year (to stick with your numbers) to make friends and find lovers?
If it is only worth $20,000 now, which may very well be true, value has been lost. So, what value is lost? I imagine it will be a lot harder to make new friends and find new lovers when you spend your time at home on a computer instead of mingling at school.
Were people previously paying $10,000 per year (to stick with your numbers) to make friends and find lovers?
Students don't precisely control the ability to vote with their feet and drive market pricing for a college degree though, right? Virtually all institutions cluster around some specific yearly price, especially those schools that are competitive to enter. Additionally, since students (buyers) can obtain large loans to attend school, they are able to make relatively irrational market decisions such as paying $30,000 per year for tuition.
The thing you said about paying for what a thing is worth ($30,000) instead of what it costs to produce that thing ($20,000) is correct. If I buy a car like that, theoretically I'm able to walk away from the deal if I don't feel like it's worth $30,000, and the seller might eventually lower his price to $20,000 if he never finds a buyer at his desired price.
But I think with colleges, the presence of loans and zeitgeist irrationally motivate people to buy something for $30,000, and then if they do happen to pay off their loans they assume that they got $30,000 of worth out of it... But I think that isn't true, since most employers aren't treating a bachelor's degree very seriously these days.
The thing you said about paying for what a thing is worth ($30,000) instead of what it costs to produce that thing ($20,000) is correct. If I buy a car like that, theoretically I'm able to walk away from the deal if I don't feel like it's worth $30,000, and the seller might eventually lower his price to $20,000 if he never finds a buyer at his desired price.
But I think with colleges, the presence of loans and zeitgeist irrationally motivate people to buy something for $30,000, and then if they do happen to pay off their loans they assume that they got $30,000 of worth out of it... But I think that isn't true, since most employers aren't treating a bachelor's degree very seriously these days.
I'm not sure it makes any difference if the perception of value is irrational or not. It remains, for a student to want to spend $30,000 on school, they have to have a belief that it is worth $30,000 to them. If tuition was instead $300,000, a lot more people would balk at the idea.
The outstanding question remains on whether or not the perception of value has declined with these announcements. If so, what perceived value has been lost in that transition? Presumably the education is still being provided.
The outstanding question remains on whether or not the perception of value has declined with these announcements. If so, what perceived value has been lost in that transition? Presumably the education is still being provided.
How do we measure that it is really worth $30,000? You are saying it's worth it because someone wants to pay it. Maybe that's true, but TSLA stock has been worth anything from $200 to $1400 in the past few years. The actual worth to the bagholder in the event of the bubble popping is negative.
For your other point, yes, at an apples to apples comparison, the receipt of college credit and education/knowledge should remain the same. But the cost to produce it should be lower. And I'm arguing that the cost savings will not be passed on to the student, because there is no market mechanism that allows them to negotiate the price of their education.
For your other point, yes, at an apples to apples comparison, the receipt of college credit and education/knowledge should remain the same. But the cost to produce it should be lower. And I'm arguing that the cost savings will not be passed on to the student, because there is no market mechanism that allows them to negotiate the price of their education.
> How do we measure that it is really worth $30,000?
It is not a question of what it is really worth (which is rather meaningless as nothing has some kind of absolute worth that is written into the cosmos), only what people see it as worth and are willing to pay.
> Maybe that's true, but TSLA stock has been worth anything from $200 to $1400 in the past few years.
Of course. The perception of value of a given thing is naturally going to change from person to person and from moment to moment. In this case we're talking about moment to moment. Because it was worth $30,000 to someone last year does not necessarily mean it is worth $30,000 to them today, as their knowledge has changed.
But, if the perception of value has declined, the question is: What has changed?
> But the cost to produce it should be lower
Even if it were free to produce, if it is worth $30,000, then it would be logical to charge $30,000. Input costs are irrelevant. To emphasize that point, it could cost $30,000 to produce, but if people only want to pay $20,000 you can't charge $30,000. You're going to lose money. People lose money producing things all the time. Input costs are irrelevant.
It is not a question of what it is really worth (which is rather meaningless as nothing has some kind of absolute worth that is written into the cosmos), only what people see it as worth and are willing to pay.
> Maybe that's true, but TSLA stock has been worth anything from $200 to $1400 in the past few years.
Of course. The perception of value of a given thing is naturally going to change from person to person and from moment to moment. In this case we're talking about moment to moment. Because it was worth $30,000 to someone last year does not necessarily mean it is worth $30,000 to them today, as their knowledge has changed.
But, if the perception of value has declined, the question is: What has changed?
> But the cost to produce it should be lower
Even if it were free to produce, if it is worth $30,000, then it would be logical to charge $30,000. Input costs are irrelevant. To emphasize that point, it could cost $30,000 to produce, but if people only want to pay $20,000 you can't charge $30,000. You're going to lose money. People lose money producing things all the time. Input costs are irrelevant.
Hopefully, they waive the gym fees lol.
Some are, but most aren't. I think the universities that could afford to mostly don't feel they need to (Harvard isn't going to run out of students willing to attend), while the universities that feel more pressure to offer discounts are already cash-strapped from lost dorm/event/etc. revenues, or in the case of public universities, state budget cuts.
The most across-the-board policy I've seen is George Washington University, which is giving a 10% tuition discount: https://coronavirus.gwu.edu/. Some other places are offering case-by-case increases in financial-aid packages.
The most across-the-board policy I've seen is George Washington University, which is giving a 10% tuition discount: https://coronavirus.gwu.edu/. Some other places are offering case-by-case increases in financial-aid packages.
What a terribly dark time to be an international student in the United States.
There's worse things in life.
That always reminds me of this: https://i.redd.it/wwje449jjge21.jpg
Fallacy of relative privation. It's still a dark place.
Are people really going to pay that much for 15 hours of Zoom lectures a week? I doubt it. The primary reason parents are willing to pay that much is not for the education (with some exceptions) but for the credentials, the networking, and putting their kids into a cohort of successful, like-minded individuals from which they can choose an acceptable mate. And of course to get that 18 year old bundle of hormones and poor judgement out of the house but still in a relatively safe environment.