Poetry – Python dependency management and packaging(python-poetry.org)
python-poetry.org
Poetry – Python dependency management and packaging
https://python-poetry.org/
72 comments
Poetry is awesome, it has its quirks but really simplified our work at https://www.colour-science.org/. We have dropped Conda entirely as it solved all our previous Pip dependency hell that ended up with the adoption of Conda.
As I'm writing that we are coincidentally and unfortunately plagued by random CI failures occurring when Poetry resolves the dependencies: https://github.com/actions/virtual-environments/issues/1343
As I'm writing that we are coincidentally and unfortunately plagued by random CI failures occurring when Poetry resolves the dependencies: https://github.com/actions/virtual-environments/issues/1343
Wow, anything that removes the need for conda is quite promising indeed!
Conda let you install non python stuffs like cudatoolkit and cudnn. Can you do the same with Poetry?
AFAIK, no, Poetry deals with Pypi, Github and urls to Python packages: https://python-poetry.org/docs/dependency-specification/
Another Python packaging system? I thought we were done when "wheels" replaced "eggs". ("Eggs", of course, replaced "setup.py" files.)
Poetry is a tool to install packages, in whatever form they're in. It's roughly in the same space as pip/easy_install or virtualenvwrapper, but it's really a higher-level tool than anything that is currently standard, which is what makes it worthwhile. (It's in the same space as Cargo, if that helps.)
Wheels and eggs are packaging formats, which Poetry (and pip) installs. You can think of poetry as like yum/dnf or apt and wheels/eggs as like .rpm or .deb files. (You can think of pip as like the rpm or dpkg command, in the sense that it's a lower-level tool but it also installs wheels/eggs, but that analogy isn't perfect.) The existence of Poetry does not obsolete either wheels or eggs.
Neither wheels nor eggs replaced setup.py files - the standard way of building a wheel is to run "setup.py bdist_wheel". You can think of setup.py as like Makefile. You would not say that tarballs have replaced Makefiles.
Wheels and eggs are packaging formats, which Poetry (and pip) installs. You can think of poetry as like yum/dnf or apt and wheels/eggs as like .rpm or .deb files. (You can think of pip as like the rpm or dpkg command, in the sense that it's a lower-level tool but it also installs wheels/eggs, but that analogy isn't perfect.) The existence of Poetry does not obsolete either wheels or eggs.
Neither wheels nor eggs replaced setup.py files - the standard way of building a wheel is to run "setup.py bdist_wheel". You can think of setup.py as like Makefile. You would not say that tarballs have replaced Makefiles.
Poetry also builds your package to create the wheel file. So it's more than pip. Check the examples on the websites to learn more about it
Yup - I'm familiar with it, I'm just trying to come up with a loose analogy for someone who isn't familiar with Python packaging but has heard things second-hand.
The final output of Poetry is a wheel so it's not an egg/sdist/wheel competitor.
If you're familiar with Ruby, a good mapping would be: gem (file format) is like wheel, gem (the command) is like pip, and bundler is like poetry. It just manages / ties everything together.
I'm a big fan of Poetry (I have a few commits in there) but it's not without its downsides.
At least a few months ago, you needed to install an entire compilation suite if you wanted to install a pure-Python source distribution (sdist) that was created with Poetry on Alpine. Somewhat by design, sdists created with Poetry require Poetry to install. Poetry itself is dependent on the cryptography package which, like all like all packages that use native-C extensions, suffers from a lack of musl-compatible wheels.
At least a few months ago, you needed to install an entire compilation suite if you wanted to install a pure-Python source distribution (sdist) that was created with Poetry on Alpine. Somewhat by design, sdists created with Poetry require Poetry to install. Poetry itself is dependent on the cryptography package which, like all like all packages that use native-C extensions, suffers from a lack of musl-compatible wheels.
Hmm, this is solvable in theory by defining a platform tag for musl such that authors of C extensions could upload musl wheels, right?
I see some discussion at https://github.com/pypa/manylinux/issues/37 but I don't totally follow why it died off.
I see some discussion at https://github.com/pypa/manylinux/issues/37 but I don't totally follow why it died off.
The pypa maintainers, in my experience, will engage with such issues but ultimately discussion dies off and they simply ignore corner cases. Realistically speaking if you want to ship impure wheels for anything outside of ppc(64le), armhf, x86 or amd64 you're SOL. Python packaging is an absolute shit show especially where impure wheels are involved. Between the manylinux "standards" that require downloading random Centos docker images because their libc is "probably old enough" to the setuptools vs distutils vs whatever else with none of them having actually mature support for binary extensions (and even less - really zero, and no docs - for raw .so's via ctypes) to the byzantine PyPI upload procedures with its underspecified platform tags (really a manylinux problem though), my Python packaging experience was so bad that I ultimately gave up on the Python ecosystem as a whole. Shipping applications and libraries with this language is simply awful to the point where I'd rather use a compiled language because it is easier to build binaries for 10 different arches under qemu than it is to ship a fucking wheel. I'm so over Python.
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and it makes me so happy that I blundered into Ruby in 2007.
For comparison, with Ruby you use RVM or Rbenv plus a Gemfile with Bundler and you’re done. There’s no debate to speak of.
The seemingly equivalent nightmare that I see in JavaScript inspires me to go use Ember if only because its creator was instrumental in forming the modern Ruby tooling ecosystem, and I hear that ember is equally unlikely to make me want to stab my forehead with a fork in frustration.
For comparison, with Ruby you use RVM or Rbenv plus a Gemfile with Bundler and you’re done. There’s no debate to speak of.
The seemingly equivalent nightmare that I see in JavaScript inspires me to go use Ember if only because its creator was instrumental in forming the modern Ruby tooling ecosystem, and I hear that ember is equally unlikely to make me want to stab my forehead with a fork in frustration.
RubyGem doesn't do binary distribution of C extension at all. Gem with C extension is usually built at install time (via extconf/mkmf) which side-stepped the whole shipping .so for 10 different arches issue but it create few other issues of requiring build tool to be installed on production server to install a Gem (so you're back to the Python's manylinux issue, but applies to all arches instead of only edge cases), and any Gem that need to use pre-built .so need to do it themselves (including differentiating between arches).
> RubyGem doesn't do binary distribution of C extension at all
https://github.com/rubyjs/libv8#do-i-get-a-binary would like a word about that. You get source or binary depending on your platform / version.
https://github.com/rubyjs/libv8#do-i-get-a-binary would like a word about that. You get source or binary depending on your platform / version.
I was not aware of platform support (probably because two of my systems are FreeBSD and linux-musl, which nobody made a binary dist for). I stand corrected. Thank you.
RubyGem doesn't do binary distribution of C extension at all
Judging by what I’ve read here and experienced firsthand with the state of python tooling, this seems like it can be a worthwhile trade off
Judging by what I’ve read here and experienced firsthand with the state of python tooling, this seems like it can be a worthwhile trade off
Old-style Python sdist/egg is exactly the same and it has the two issues mentioned in my original reply. Python sdist/Ruby extconf/mkmf also has an issue of executing code from the package itself to install a package and can be a huge security issue (which Python wheels were supposed to solve).
The reason this has never become a problem in Ruby world is because Ruby community is centered around Rails, of which a requirement to deploy on non-x86_64/ARM64 is pretty much non-existent. Ruby itself doesn't even support non-glibc (e.g. compiling Ruby on musl requires a patch).
The reason this has never become a problem in Ruby world is because Ruby community is centered around Rails, of which a requirement to deploy on non-x86_64/ARM64 is pretty much non-existent. Ruby itself doesn't even support non-glibc (e.g. compiling Ruby on musl requires a patch).
How does Ruby handle C extensions?
Well enough for my needs on a Mac and deploying to Heroku.
Hmm. Why can't you build wheels for 10 different arches with your same qemu setup? Is it that PyPI won't actually accept those wheels and so you'd have to self-host?
(I have contributed a tiny bit to the manylinux stuff, so I'm curious where the problems are, but I'm definitely not active in any sense... it does seem like a couple of these issues boil down to "there should be more people spending time on it," sadly.)
(I have contributed a tiny bit to the manylinux stuff, so I'm curious where the problems are, but I'm definitely not active in any sense... it does seem like a couple of these issues boil down to "there should be more people spending time on it," sadly.)
> Why can't you build wheels for 10 different arches with your same qemu setup?
This gets pretty difficult when you are required to do it in Docker in order to produce manylinux-compatible wheels. Or at least that is my understanding.
For some of the arches I need to support I just do it on real hardware - but of course the quay.io manylinux images aren't available for those arches. It is a half baked solution.
> Is it that PyPI won't actually accept those wheels and so you'd have to self-host?
Yeah, that's basically what it boils down to. The platform tags are underspecified - especially for ARM, though this is hardly a python specific problem since few people seem to really understand what the differences are in ARM ABIs - but PyPI accepts a subset of even those, which is limiting.
The other difficulty is that the packaging infrastructure for impure wheels that aren't strictly cpython extensions is basically nonexistent. The packaging procedure for a module that imports a .so via ctypes, for example, is basically "good luck".
To digress slightly, another problem is that source distributions for such packages so frequently throw some obscure python stack trace or a "lol no gcc" stack trace when you try to install them in pip. Which to me is an unacceptable way to communicate a problem. Pip's apparent worldview that tracebacks are an okay way to communicate errors is so hostile to end users, and I see that same attitude present throughout the Python ecosystem. I mean the whole concept of venv's as standard procedure is a good indicator the packaging system is fubar. Sorry for the rant.
This gets pretty difficult when you are required to do it in Docker in order to produce manylinux-compatible wheels. Or at least that is my understanding.
For some of the arches I need to support I just do it on real hardware - but of course the quay.io manylinux images aren't available for those arches. It is a half baked solution.
> Is it that PyPI won't actually accept those wheels and so you'd have to self-host?
Yeah, that's basically what it boils down to. The platform tags are underspecified - especially for ARM, though this is hardly a python specific problem since few people seem to really understand what the differences are in ARM ABIs - but PyPI accepts a subset of even those, which is limiting.
The other difficulty is that the packaging infrastructure for impure wheels that aren't strictly cpython extensions is basically nonexistent. The packaging procedure for a module that imports a .so via ctypes, for example, is basically "good luck".
To digress slightly, another problem is that source distributions for such packages so frequently throw some obscure python stack trace or a "lol no gcc" stack trace when you try to install them in pip. Which to me is an unacceptable way to communicate a problem. Pip's apparent worldview that tracebacks are an okay way to communicate errors is so hostile to end users, and I see that same attitude present throughout the Python ecosystem. I mean the whole concept of venv's as standard procedure is a good indicator the packaging system is fubar. Sorry for the rant.
You can really go down the rabbit hole trying to figure out where the wheel+Alpine problem should be fixed. https://github.com/pypa/packaging-problems/issues/69 is a newer bug that is tracking this. Python relies on the "manylinux" specification (https://github.com/pypa/manylinux) which originally pinned build environments to CentOS 5, was updated in 2018 to use CentOS 6, and then updated in 2019 to use CentOS 7.
It's entirely possible that the Alpine user base isn't as big/important as I would think but this seems like something that needs to be solved.
It's entirely possible that the Alpine user base isn't as big/important as I would think but this seems like something that needs to be solved.
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> With x, packaging in Python is a solved problem
This is the claim that has been made about every "advancement" in python packaging for the last 20 years. Some of us have been kicking around long enough to remember the great saviour being distutils, setuptools, easy_install, eggs, wheels, pip, pipfiles/pip-tools... The truth being that all people have managed to do is produce a horrific mess with an ever growing tower of components each of which never really solves the problem (and now people want me to add "tox" to the mix too!). I have to say that packaging is really the worst part of the python world.
I do my best these days to avoid every component of the python packaging ecosystem I possibly can and use Nix as much as possible, which really Just Solves The Problem.
This is the claim that has been made about every "advancement" in python packaging for the last 20 years. Some of us have been kicking around long enough to remember the great saviour being distutils, setuptools, easy_install, eggs, wheels, pip, pipfiles/pip-tools... The truth being that all people have managed to do is produce a horrific mess with an ever growing tower of components each of which never really solves the problem (and now people want me to add "tox" to the mix too!). I have to say that packaging is really the worst part of the python world.
I do my best these days to avoid every component of the python packaging ecosystem I possibly can and use Nix as much as possible, which really Just Solves The Problem.
I agree that packaging is horrible in Python. Poetry is mostly excellent, but I have one project where running `poetry lock` takes over an hour and I have no idea why.
I keep seeing this claim about Nix, and I keep trying to understand it, but every time I look into it I come out more confused. Nix appears to be an operating system (?) and packaging things _for_ Nix seems to be something akin to a dockerfile, but one that will only work on a machine with the Nix operating system? If I've got all of that right (which is a big "if"), I can see how that's useful for building a system's dependencies and deploying it to a Nix OS server, but I can never work out how any of it is useful if I don't run Nix OS on the servers or I want to distribute a Python package.
So... Nix is just a package manager, but it's a package manager that tries to be as generic as possible and only have the attitude that a "package" is just "a bunch of (immutable) files that depend on the presence of another bunch of files" and so should be able to take over the job of all package mangers on your system (no matter how much of a special snowflake language x or application y thinks it is and deserves its own, inevitably crappy, package manager). One of the many advantages this brings is that your system's software installation makes sense "as a whole" and isn't the result of 7 different package managers or "auto updating" applications fighting each other.
But because of this, Nix can only have things depend on packages it has provided itself. It doesn't assume anything about the host system apart from the kernel. So yes, installing Nix on an existing Linux system can feel like installing another distribution. But you only ever have to use as much of it as you want to. Everything lives in /nix, and to get rid of everything you just have to `rm -rf /nix`.
NixOS is a full distribution that just uses Nix for everything, including configuration management.
But because of this, Nix can only have things depend on packages it has provided itself. It doesn't assume anything about the host system apart from the kernel. So yes, installing Nix on an existing Linux system can feel like installing another distribution. But you only ever have to use as much of it as you want to. Everything lives in /nix, and to get rid of everything you just have to `rm -rf /nix`.
NixOS is a full distribution that just uses Nix for everything, including configuration management.
I'm a complete outsider to the python ecosystem, from time to time I need to write a script or use a popular python library like pygments and I used to hate having to do anything with python because of how difficult it seemed to install anything (cognitive overload of having 20 different ways to install things...).
Anyway, recently I discovered miniconda and it seems like the best, most unambiguous way to install python. It is small (in rel terms...), it works like a charm on Windows, and I can just do something run a single command like `conda install pygments` and I'm all set!
Just not sure why I would ever need to look into something like poetry, although I heard conda and poetry can complement each other somehow? (as do pip, easy_install or whatever is called and all the others haha :-p).
Anyway, recently I discovered miniconda and it seems like the best, most unambiguous way to install python. It is small (in rel terms...), it works like a charm on Windows, and I can just do something run a single command like `conda install pygments` and I'm all set!
Just not sure why I would ever need to look into something like poetry, although I heard conda and poetry can complement each other somehow? (as do pip, easy_install or whatever is called and all the others haha :-p).
Well I just want to share my absolute hatred for conda on Windows. Using Anaconda Navigator has been the bane of my existence whenever I use my work Windows laptop. It's wonky, the UI is horrible, it takes ridiculously longer times than plain pip etc.
I also made the mistake of installing a full conda distribution.. worst experience ever!
Miniconda is (almost?) stand-alone though. It is a minimal install and you admin your packages through the command line.
I'd say, just uninstall conda completely from your system and try from scratch with miniconda [1].
1: https://docs.conda.io/en/latest/miniconda.html
Miniconda is (almost?) stand-alone though. It is a minimal install and you admin your packages through the command line.
I'd say, just uninstall conda completely from your system and try from scratch with miniconda [1].
1: https://docs.conda.io/en/latest/miniconda.html
> [...] from time to time I need to write a script or use a popular python library like pygments and I used to hate having to do anything with python because of how difficult it seemed to install anything
Not sure I understand why you're having so much trouble. It's literally two commands:
Not sure I understand why you're having so much trouble. It's literally two commands:
$ python3 -m venv venv # Create virtualenv
$ ./venv/bin/pip install pygments
$ ./venv/bin/pip install -U pip setuptools wheelVirtual envs never made sense to me. I never understood what made Python so special that it needed these.
I never got where the virtual env is, what it does and why I need it.
Why can't I just `pip3 install xxx` and be done with it?
Python dependency management is a nightmare, and it seems like it always will be due to the insane number of so called "easy" solutions.
I never got where the virtual env is, what it does and why I need it.
Why can't I just `pip3 install xxx` and be done with it?
Python dependency management is a nightmare, and it seems like it always will be due to the insane number of so called "easy" solutions.
Python is not special in this case. Virtualenv is pretty much equivalent to:
- bundle --path env_directory
- gopath
- any other language's vendoring solution
In Ruby for example you can do "gem install foo" or add foo to Gemfile and use bundler. Those work similar to "pip install foo" or adding foo to pyproject and using poetry.
It was worse and complicated, but for years now it seems like complaining about venv is closer to a meme, since people go away and do pretty much the same thing in other languages. (Or don't have that option in something like C)
- bundle --path env_directory
- gopath
- any other language's vendoring solution
In Ruby for example you can do "gem install foo" or add foo to Gemfile and use bundler. Those work similar to "pip install foo" or adding foo to pyproject and using poetry.
It was worse and complicated, but for years now it seems like complaining about venv is closer to a meme, since people go away and do pretty much the same thing in other languages. (Or don't have that option in something like C)
I don't know about Ruby, but it's nothing like Gopath or node_modules, nor Yarn PnP for what it's worth. Virtualenv still need to be created per project and must be "activated".
The fact that they're a somewhat hidden stateful context is still complicated and confusing.
The fact is when I retrieve a Python project, I still have no idea what command I should run to install the dependencies and setup everything. With Go modules it's just `go get`, and with JS projects it's just `npm install` or `yarn install`
The fact that they're a somewhat hidden stateful context is still complicated and confusing.
The fact is when I retrieve a Python project, I still have no idea what command I should run to install the dependencies and setup everything. With Go modules it's just `go get`, and with JS projects it's just `npm install` or `yarn install`
The concept is the same. I'm not saying the implementation is identical. And I meant gopath before modules - where you have to explicitly define your environment.
"Not sure I understands why you're having so much trouble" ... proceeds to explain a procedure that involves understanding various moving parts, including virtualenvs, pip, setuptools, wheel, etc...
Even if I'm not gonna get deep into python, I like to feel like I understand what's going on. With python it just involves a lot more effort than with other ecosystems, even if you think that these things are easy to learn.
Compare with ruby: `gem install the-gem`. Done. No "virtual envs", no plethora of similar but different tools to do slightly the same thing / whatever, no preconditions, no step by step procedures. Simplicity is important!
Even if I'm not gonna get deep into python, I like to feel like I understand what's going on. With python it just involves a lot more effort than with other ecosystems, even if you think that these things are easy to learn.
Compare with ruby: `gem install the-gem`. Done. No "virtual envs", no plethora of similar but different tools to do slightly the same thing / whatever, no preconditions, no step by step procedures. Simplicity is important!
My experience of Ruby, which is admittedly a few years old, is that people did use multiple Ruby environments through e.g rbenv to manage different sets of gem versions, which is what "virtual envs" are the equivalent of.
Now, I do agree the Python tooling situation is kind of a mess, but there you can still do:
"pip install the-package"
And you're just as good, all the other tools are when you're trying to do stuff harder like:
- Maintain multiple development environments - Publish new packages - Build binary packages - Handle Windows
I think on Ruby you need tools beyond "gem install" to do those as well. The point is how we achieve simplicity while keeping the ability to do those things.
Now, I do agree the Python tooling situation is kind of a mess, but there you can still do:
"pip install the-package"
And you're just as good, all the other tools are when you're trying to do stuff harder like:
- Maintain multiple development environments - Publish new packages - Build binary packages - Handle Windows
I think on Ruby you need tools beyond "gem install" to do those as well. The point is how we achieve simplicity while keeping the ability to do those things.
You can just do 'pip install the-package' in python if you aren't using a virtual environment.
Ruby does have the equivalent of virtual environments, using RVM or rbenv (similar but different tools), to solve the same problems as in Python.
Ruby does have the equivalent of virtual environments, using RVM or rbenv (similar but different tools), to solve the same problems as in Python.
Conda is kind of like using Ubuntu instead of a bleeding edge distro. Things work because you're on old versions of things. It's not an ideal solution. Poetry gives you the best of both worlds.
Oh, never heard explained like that, that makes sense. For what is worth, I was an archlinux user for years until I got tired of the madness and switched back to ubuntu... so perhaps conda is for me after all :-p
Poetry is fantastic but it looks like pip is trying to create their own competitor. [1] I would much prefer if the pypa folks and the poetry folks got together to more tightly integrate the systems. Poetry solves a ton of problems ranging from venv management to making packaging easier to splitting dev and production dependencies. Consider me a huge fan.
[1] https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/8511#issuecomment-6651402...
[1] https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/8511#issuecomment-6651402...
Would have been nice if poetry shell loaded .env
I got used to that workflow with pipenv.
I got used to that workflow with pipenv.
Arguing that doesn't help https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry/issues/337#issuecomm...
It sounds like there's interest in a plugin system which would handle things like this?
I agree, this doesn't seem like it makes sense to be built into a tool like poetry - it's a little too magic. And I'd have a use case for doing different kinds of runtime configuration (not environment variables) if it had a hook system.
I agree, this doesn't seem like it makes sense to be built into a tool like poetry - it's a little too magic. And I'd have a use case for doing different kinds of runtime configuration (not environment variables) if it had a hook system.
This seems nice, I'm down with that. Still would have been nicer if poetry had it.
https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry/issues/337#issuecomm...
https://github.com/python-poetry/poetry/issues/337#issuecomm...
What's the advantage over pipenv?
Are there any advantages with pupenv at all? Pipenv definitely takes the crown in my list of Package managers that are plain stupid.
Well, it was the first locking package manager for Python. A definite edge over plain pip.
It always worked without issues for me.
What's so bad about it?
It kind of works for my team, but only because nobody touches it anymore.
What's so bad about it? Well it's bad at being package manager for starter. Here is a quick question. How do you install packages with pipenv with the versions specified in the lock file?
What's so bad about it? Well it's bad at being package manager for starter. Here is a quick question. How do you install packages with pipenv with the versions specified in the lock file?
Pip-tools was around a lot longer (more than two years).
Pipenv tries to do so much (e.g. a pipenv command involve poking around procfs to detect shell via shellingham to display colors), used to introduce breaking changes between releases (before they switched the scheme to CalVer), and takes a really long time between each releases (longer for bugs to get fixed).
Most people that switched from Pipenv to Poetry were probably done so during the end of 2018 throughout 2019, of which Pipenv has no releases at all[1] (non-alpha/beta version were only released in November 2018 then May 2020).
There were a rant from few years ago[2][3] regarding other issues (performance, etc.).
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21781421
[2]: https://chriswarrick.com/blog/2018/07/17/pipenv-promises-a-l...
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18612590
Most people that switched from Pipenv to Poetry were probably done so during the end of 2018 throughout 2019, of which Pipenv has no releases at all[1] (non-alpha/beta version were only released in November 2018 then May 2020).
There were a rant from few years ago[2][3] regarding other issues (performance, etc.).
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21781421
[2]: https://chriswarrick.com/blog/2018/07/17/pipenv-promises-a-l...
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18612590
It's not pipenv.
I tried it and liked it, really simple to use, but:
* how do I use it to install i.e. service files, config files etc.? * can I use it to generate Deb/RPM packages?
I'm not sure if packaging applications is as much of goal as packaging libraries, but I felt that it was missing stuff to do the former.
* how do I use it to install i.e. service files, config files etc.? * can I use it to generate Deb/RPM packages?
I'm not sure if packaging applications is as much of goal as packaging libraries, but I felt that it was missing stuff to do the former.
It's not really for that. It can make Python packages for PyPI and manage deps and that's it. Building final deployment packages like debs are out of scope.
I'm going to sound like a very grumpy old man—because that's what I am—but if you actually need a tool like poetry, you've really fucked up.
I have a ton of respect for the author. It's really good code and solves a hard problem in elegant ways. But it's a problem that we shouldn't let ourselves have.
It's like a patient talking to a therapist:
patient: I'm really depressed.
therapist: Why do you think that is?
p: Well, I've been having an affair with this woman, and my wife found out about it.
t: How does she feel about that?
p: She's pretty angry at me. It's affecting our relationship.
t: How is it affecting your relationship?
p: Well, she doesn't want to have sex with me anymore, and things have gotten a little weird with the kids.
t: How do you feel about not having sex with your wife?
p: It's depressing.
t: And the kids? How do you feel about them?
p: They'll grow up and understand eventually.
t: Here's a pill you can take every day that will make you feel better.
There are two ways to address this kind of situation. The first way is to give the patient a pill to fix the symptom of depression. The second way is to fix the behavior that's causing the depression.
Poetry (and Cargo and other package/dependency managers) are a little pill you can take to make you feel better about stuff.
But there's another school of therapy. I'm maybe going to sound a little like Zed Shaw here, but there's the "Don't fucking do that" school of therapy.
It's possible to fix the underlying behavior that's causing the pain instead of taking a pill. It's harder and requires more work, sure. But in the long term it is a better, more stable solution.
Since I'm already on a bit of a rant, I'll go ahead and say it out loud: agile is the source of many of these types of problems. You start out with good intentions and then one day you end up married to a thing that was only supposed to be a proof-of-concept, but it got shipped because product team and velocity, and now your life is hell, and that POC now has kids, and you're legally responsible for them, and fuck it, just give me a pill, doctor.
Poetry is a brilliant solution to a problem we shouldn't create for ourselves.
I have a ton of respect for the author. It's really good code and solves a hard problem in elegant ways. But it's a problem that we shouldn't let ourselves have.
It's like a patient talking to a therapist:
patient: I'm really depressed.
therapist: Why do you think that is?
p: Well, I've been having an affair with this woman, and my wife found out about it.
t: How does she feel about that?
p: She's pretty angry at me. It's affecting our relationship.
t: How is it affecting your relationship?
p: Well, she doesn't want to have sex with me anymore, and things have gotten a little weird with the kids.
t: How do you feel about not having sex with your wife?
p: It's depressing.
t: And the kids? How do you feel about them?
p: They'll grow up and understand eventually.
t: Here's a pill you can take every day that will make you feel better.
There are two ways to address this kind of situation. The first way is to give the patient a pill to fix the symptom of depression. The second way is to fix the behavior that's causing the depression.
Poetry (and Cargo and other package/dependency managers) are a little pill you can take to make you feel better about stuff.
But there's another school of therapy. I'm maybe going to sound a little like Zed Shaw here, but there's the "Don't fucking do that" school of therapy.
It's possible to fix the underlying behavior that's causing the pain instead of taking a pill. It's harder and requires more work, sure. But in the long term it is a better, more stable solution.
Since I'm already on a bit of a rant, I'll go ahead and say it out loud: agile is the source of many of these types of problems. You start out with good intentions and then one day you end up married to a thing that was only supposed to be a proof-of-concept, but it got shipped because product team and velocity, and now your life is hell, and that POC now has kids, and you're legally responsible for them, and fuck it, just give me a pill, doctor.
Poetry is a brilliant solution to a problem we shouldn't create for ourselves.
Can you give concrete examples how you would do <insert some scenario> without poetry?
Examples of what I really have messed up if I have to use poetry would be also nice. I have trouble coming up with concrete examples myself.
Examples of what I really have messed up if I have to use poetry would be also nice. I have trouble coming up with concrete examples myself.
This is the forth-is-my-chisel vs node-js-is-my-glue-gun worldview collision. It's bigger than vi-or-emacs, it's older than functional-vs-procedural. There's no bridging it with contextual examples.
This is true, and I don't object to this description. Like I said, I'm a grumpy old man.
ianamartin(1)
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20672436
I tried it for the first time couple of months ago and I loved it, its my preferred way of managing python packages given the choice. Would love to see greater adoption.
Discussed here 7 months ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21779191
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21779191
Poetry is far and away the most interesting solution when its comes to managing Python dependencies.
Care to elaborate for us muggles
https://xkcd.com/927/
Finally! A standard for managing dependencies in Python.
Finally! A standard for managing dependencies in Python.
I ended up with PyScaffold and never turned back again!
I agree. Never had any problem with it so far.
Dependency resolution might be a hard problem to solve concurrently, but it would be great, if poetry did not only use a single core, to speed up the process.