K-9 Mail removed from Google Play Store due to listing description(twitter.com)
twitter.com
K-9 Mail removed from Google Play Store due to listing description
https://twitter.com/obra/status/1303442579107831809
60 comments
So glad I am using a ROM with signature spoofing so that fdroid can keep my apps up to date without me prodding it.
https://lineage.microg.org/
https://lineage.microg.org/
The F-Droid auto updating feature does not require signature spoofing, just the F-Droid Privileged Extension (which can be installed on every ROM with custom recovery).
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Ah right, I am a little fuzzy on the details it seems.
First time I heard about microG. I don't get it -- why is it called "LineageOS for microG" and not "microG for LineageOS"? Am I missing something? Isn't microG something that runs on top of LineageOS and not the other way around?
microG needs signature spoofing to work. LineageOS devs have refused to allow signature spoofing under any circumstances. So microG needs a fork of LineageOS.
Windows Subsystem for Linux all over again.
It is because microG isn't an app but a system component of the operating system. It gets baked in when building the system.
So what is microG baked into? AOSP?
>LineageOS unofficial fork with built-in microG gapps implementation
So it's LineageOS for microG for (LineageOS unofficial fork)?
As in an official rectification of the unofficial fork with microG in the middle?
(confused)
As in an official rectification of the unofficial fork with microG in the middle?
(confused)
It's simply a fork of LineageOS designed to run microG out of the box, the builds are there for ease of use. microG is still a separate project from LineageOS. They are "LineageOS [builds meant] for [use with] microG".
I don't understand the name either, but I am glad the project exists.
Google continues the war against its own users.
It's more like waging a war against its developers, which is one of the reasons why users adopt Android.
That being said, I think that Google did the right thing in this case. I know of and use K9, so I trust it. Google does not have this privilege. While they probably have more than enough data to determine if the app is trustworthy in the first place, it would be difficult to determine if a trustworthy app went rogue in a timely manner.
As for the issue, keyword stuffing is way to manipulate search results. In this case, keyword stuffing appears to have been used appropriately. Now imagine that people started stuffing in terms like Gmail or Outlook to benefit from brand recognition. Given the scales that Google operate at, it is unlikely that they could detect such transgressions effectively for all cases.
The immediate removal is problematic, but it is difficult for outsiders to understand how giving notice would impact Google. Some developers may simply put such warnings on the back burner, or even forget about it, if given advance notice. Others may manipulate the system by taking advantage of the advance warning (e.g. using it to stretch out their transgression).
That being said, I think that Google did the right thing in this case. I know of and use K9, so I trust it. Google does not have this privilege. While they probably have more than enough data to determine if the app is trustworthy in the first place, it would be difficult to determine if a trustworthy app went rogue in a timely manner.
As for the issue, keyword stuffing is way to manipulate search results. In this case, keyword stuffing appears to have been used appropriately. Now imagine that people started stuffing in terms like Gmail or Outlook to benefit from brand recognition. Given the scales that Google operate at, it is unlikely that they could detect such transgressions effectively for all cases.
The immediate removal is problematic, but it is difficult for outsiders to understand how giving notice would impact Google. Some developers may simply put such warnings on the back burner, or even forget about it, if given advance notice. Others may manipulate the system by taking advantage of the advance warning (e.g. using it to stretch out their transgression).
Please consider this:
A company whose AI powered app store can't even handle simple issues like this wants to build self-driving cars.
A company whose AI powered app store can't even handle simple issues like this wants to build self-driving cars.
Certain issues aren't very deterministic. Traffic laws and rules are. Wether someone is acting in bad faith is not.
Unfortunately self-driving cars also have to deal with nondeterministic humans.
Aren't you violating the prime directive?
Why would this not be a warning before a delist wtf
Well, actually telling people what needs to be changed is a huge step forward for Google. Normally, I'd expect them to just turn it off and say you violated terms and ignore any attempts to contact.
Cool. Get it via F-Droid instead.
Off topic: k9 badly needs a UI update. Maybe the folks who fixed blender can help?
On topic: sometimes I feel k9 is a lost cause. With Microsoft and Google deliberately adding non-standard crap to their protocols I am surprised k9 had survived so far.
On topic: sometimes I feel k9 is a lost cause. With Microsoft and Google deliberately adding non-standard crap to their protocols I am surprised k9 had survived so far.
The next version (now in beta) has a refreshed UI. There's a screenshot in this blog post:
https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-With-K-9-Mail
https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-With-K-9-Mail
Looks much better!
If I can get to work with outlook enterprise accounts I will probably switch.
If I can get to work with outlook enterprise accounts I will probably switch.
I dunno, other than the bottom tabs I actually like the old UI
Time to starting voting with my wallet away from Apple and Google phones I think.
Why did I think k-9 was no longer maintained?
K-9 Mail's last stable release was in September 2018. However, they've been steadily producing beta releases and "would like to release a new stable version as soon as possible."
https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-With-K-9-Mail
https://k9mail.app/2020/06/01/Whats-Up-With-K-9-Mail
I used K-9 for a long time, but I got a new phone with Android 10, and K-9 is not supported for Android 10... I switched to FairEmail and it's great. Even syncing which was not working very well on K-9 works great on Fairphone. Got it on F-droid anyway...
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I mean, sorry, but that does seems kind of scummy on the developer’s part.
We added that to the description because otherwise folks searching for "k9" or "k9mail" or "k-9 email" couldn't find the app or got pushed to sketchy malware pretending to be K-9. If Play's search worked, we wouldn't have had to stick keywords in the description. (But also, it wasn't against policy when we did it 5+ years ago. And I absolutely don't mind them asking us to change it. But the zero-strikes removal thing pisses me off.)
Searching for those works now, so the rule against spamming the description makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the hamfisted enforcement. If it were a Google app, it would not have been delisted, and that is an antitrust lawsuit waiting to happen.
Why would it be scummy? Do you think the authors of the email app is trying to trick the local kennel club members into install their open source email client unwillingly?
I mean... Google was right to do this, but K-9 Mail was right to do what they did as well.
Not sure how you fix this, other than Google apply some of their search smarts to the playstore that they have on the search engine.
Not sure how you fix this, other than Google apply some of their search smarts to the playstore that they have on the search engine.
Original author of K-9 here (but not an active dev).
Also the person who added that text to the description...probably about 5 years ago.
My only real complaint is that Google pulled the app with zero notice. It feels abusive to pull apps from the Play store for a non-malicious violation of the terms (that may well predate those terms) like this.
Even a 48 hour notice of "we will remove your app if you don't change the description" would have been pretty reasonable.
The solution is straightforward and the team is already on top of a resubmission with an updated description. This is absolutely not a hill I want to die on.
Also the person who added that text to the description...probably about 5 years ago.
My only real complaint is that Google pulled the app with zero notice. It feels abusive to pull apps from the Play store for a non-malicious violation of the terms (that may well predate those terms) like this.
Even a 48 hour notice of "we will remove your app if you don't change the description" would have been pretty reasonable.
The solution is straightforward and the team is already on top of a resubmission with an updated description. This is absolutely not a hill I want to die on.
I've had my app removed with zero notice, and it was due to an Oxford comma in the short description. No notice or warning of any kind. It was also a description untouched for several years.
It's difficult to describe the stress of having to deal with what is presumably an indiscriminate algorithm, potential heuristic, or some new quota.
It's difficult to describe the stress of having to deal with what is presumably an indiscriminate algorithm, potential heuristic, or some new quota.
Ok. This is a story I've gotta hear. What was the sentence in question?
"Eats, shoots, and leaves"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves#Title
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves#Title
Does the policy disallow Oxford commas?
As far as I understand it, the policy disallows listings in the short description, and the algorithm wrongly categorized the sentence as a listing because of the Oxford comma.
Isn't an Oxford comma, by definition, part of a list of items?
I'd guess our machine overlords didn't like it
Incredible, so now a punctuation mistake warrents deletion.....
The Oxford Comma isn’t a “mistake.” It’s the preferred style for many people, and it’s both correct (assuming it’s used consistently in a doc) and common. It’s difficult for me to understand Google or any other entity to enforce an arbitrary set of grammar style policies on third parties except when the product is a journal, magazine, or something to that effect.
They don't want lists in the description. Things that look like this, and this, and this, plus this, this, and this, would trip the sensor.
It's dumb, but it is what it is.
It's dumb, but it is what it is.
Thanks for K-9. It’s the only decent phone mail app I’ve ever used. Good luck with all this.
After using it for a long time, when I upgraded my phone and since K-9 is not supported on Android 10, I found FairEmail which I'd say is even better than K-9.
Yeah google play store search is absolutely trash now. If I have to find an app, I google it.
Wow, such irony.
Thanks for giving us K-9, I use it daily (hourly really) and absolutely love it!
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.fsck.k9/