The magic of mushrooms forces us to rethink what intelligence means(prospectmagazine.co.uk)
prospectmagazine.co.uk
The magic of mushrooms forces us to rethink what intelligence means
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/entangled-life-book-review-mushrooms-fungi-biology-science
38 comments
It’s mushroom mania. I’m assuming they are running the show at the moment. Yes, your next boss may be a neural mushroom network.
I misread it as magic mushrooms and was expecting a completely different story.
No, it doesn't --- no more than the collective intelligence of a beehive or an ant colony. Emergent complexity is nothing new. This article is just trying to capture some of the buzz around psychedelics to jazz up a point that's actually pretty banal.
Very often you will read science journalists butcher an explanation, or read way too much into something because they don't know what they are talking about. The part in this article about the fungus "solving" the maze has to be one of my all time favorites. If you take every path in a maze simultaneously at the same rate, the first path to the exit you find will be the shortest one. Its simple geometry. And that means mushrooms are magic (or something). When you have a very simple thing to say (or nothing at all) and like hearing yourself talk, you will write articles like this one.
Don't you see how you're explaining exactly what they're getting at? That intelligence could be an emergent phenomena of smaller, simpler, mechanistic interacting components?
Perhaps you ought to read The Society of Mind by Minsky.
Perhaps you ought to read The Society of Mind by Minsky.
> intelligence could be an emergent phenomena of smaller, simpler, mechanistic interacting components
I think the parent's point is that this idea is already taken for granted, rather than a "rethinking". After all, our intelligences are the product of neurons and chemical signalling. That intelligence is an emergent phenomenon seems like a given.
I think the parent's point is that this idea is already taken for granted, rather than a "rethinking". After all, our intelligences are the product of neurons and chemical signalling. That intelligence is an emergent phenomenon seems like a given.
Theres only one paragraph in the article that mentions mushrooms being used for hallucinogenic properties. The rest of the article is an actually interesting read on fungal biology.
I think OP is referring to the headline snippet "magic of mushrooms," which some may interpret as a hint of their hallucinogenic properties due to the "magic mushroom" slang.
Earlier discussion about this book:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666521
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24666521
Fungal networks possess a capacity for solving novel problems, such as growing through a maze to locate the shortest path to the exit. Some researchers are exploring their electrical signalling to make what they call living fungal computers—not to perform calculations, but perhaps to act as environmental sensors that can report soil quality or pollution.
That's an interesting quote from the article. Mushrooms are pretty amazing, Paul Stamets blew my mind with his Ted talk years ago, they are something else that is for sure!
That's an interesting quote from the article. Mushrooms are pretty amazing, Paul Stamets blew my mind with his Ted talk years ago, they are something else that is for sure!
Paul Stamets is great! I've watched his Rogan episodes 4 or 5 times each.
(2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg
(2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ
(2019) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg
(2017) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPqWstVnRjQ
TIL there is a spore-obsessed Trek character named after him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(Star_Trek)
I never made this connection before, but given they use Mycelium Networks it makes complete sense.
How does it compare with simple chemical maze solvers like https://youtu.be/ztOk-v8epAg ?
Whoa! This looks pretty wild, going down rabbit hole now. If I make it out I will report back!
We need mushrooms that would eat our toxic waste.
Not sure why is it downvoted. Biomining ([1]), which is extracting (heavy) metals from substance using fungi/bacterias is already a proven industrial process. It's entirely conceivable that at least some sorts of toxic waste could be cleaned up like that.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomining
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomining
There are already several ways to do this sort of bioremediation using mushrooms as bio-sponges (Eg for heavy metals). There’s the question of where to safely store those mushroom after the heavy metal is absorbed.
Important tangent, mushroom’s ability to absorb elements of its environment is a strong case for eating only organic mushrooms from known sources. Heavy metals like lead and mercury have been found in edible mushrooms from questionable sources.
Important tangent, mushroom’s ability to absorb elements of its environment is a strong case for eating only organic mushrooms from known sources. Heavy metals like lead and mercury have been found in edible mushrooms from questionable sources.
Here's a fungus that eat gamma radiation, discovered at Chernobyl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
"...but descriptions of other people’s hallucinogenic trips tend to be tiresome. (The son of maverick biologist Rupert Sheldrake, Merlin grew up among colourful company, and the apple clearly didn’t fall far from the tree.) He breezily describes the potential of fungal hallucinogens such as psilocybin to treat disorders like depression, downplaying the possible dangers and the mixed and still rudimentary evidence of their efficacy."
Never lists these possible "dangers" while downplaying "rudimentary" evidence...
Never lists these possible "dangers" while downplaying "rudimentary" evidence...
I think the point is that there hasn’t really been 3-phase double blinded trials to determine dosing, safety, tolerability, and efficacy as well as side effects.
Much of what we have is anecdotal.
Much of what we have is anecdotal.
Have you not heard of "How to change your Mind" by Michael Pollan? Or the Research of Roland Griffiths? https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C24&q=rol...
I am not sure your comment is accurate, the effects and benefits are definitely not anecdotal.
Re Depression treatment: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C24&q=dep...
I am not sure your comment is accurate, the effects and benefits are definitely not anecdotal.
Re Depression treatment: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C24&q=dep...
Blinded trials of active doses of a psychedelic is cargo cult science. They tried that in the Good Friday experiment: it was silly, when someone has taken a psychedelic, they know it.
That does mean there are certain assurances of neutrality we simply can't have. It doesn't mean that efficacy and safety can't be studied: they can.
That does mean there are certain assurances of neutrality we simply can't have. It doesn't mean that efficacy and safety can't be studied: they can.
No doubt - I’ve had plenty of psychedelics in my youth. However a blinded trial isn’t just about how people describe their trip. The people evaluating the results are unaware who was given placebo as well. This way they can conduct their study without bias.
Also, dosing matters. Can the apparent positive effects occur at low doses where possibly it isn’t very perceptible? This is important and a double blind approach is warranted.
Also, dosing matters. Can the apparent positive effects occur at low doses where possibly it isn’t very perceptible? This is important and a double blind approach is warranted.
Agreed that it doesn't apply to microdosing, and single-blinding the scientists handling the data is valuable.
I don't think it's as important for the attending scientists, who are also going to have a pretty accurate guess. What's more important is that they have some training in 'trip sitting' and that the experimental environment be appropriately designed, DMT: the Spirit Molecule has a number of stories about how things go poorly when this aspect is neglected.
I don't think it's as important for the attending scientists, who are also going to have a pretty accurate guess. What's more important is that they have some training in 'trip sitting' and that the experimental environment be appropriately designed, DMT: the Spirit Molecule has a number of stories about how things go poorly when this aspect is neglected.
If all participants have never tried psychedelics, maybe it could be tested against a non-psychedelic psychoactive drug so both groups would feel something?
The Good Friday experiment used an "active placebo" in the form of a low dose of amphetamines.
Doesn't help: any normal person can tell the difference between a full dose of psilocybin and a low dose of amphetamines.
Doesn't help: any normal person can tell the difference between a full dose of psilocybin and a low dose of amphetamines.
Does the patient need to know which drug is being tested?
"You'll be given either a psychedelic or a stimulent, followed by x testing" - then knowing which drug you're getting doesn't mean you know if you're in the placebo group or not?
"You'll be given either a psychedelic or a stimulent, followed by x testing" - then knowing which drug you're getting doesn't mean you know if you're in the placebo group or not?
No idea as I know relatively little about pharmacology compared to an expert. But I think you’re in the right spirit here.
>I think the point is that there hasn’t really been 3-phase double blinded trials to determine [safety, tolerability]
Psilocybin is well known to be one of, if not the single safest psychoactive compound known to man, in terms of physical toxicity. Obviously, mental harm can be a possibility.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-toxicity-of-re...
Psilocybin is well known to be one of, if not the single safest psychoactive compound known to man, in terms of physical toxicity. Obviously, mental harm can be a possibility.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-toxicity-of-re...
I took "possible dangers" as, those that haven't been empirically ruled out. Perhaps something that affects some people, but hasn't yet been linked to psilocybin use.
I misread this to be about "magic mushroom" but turns out it's an even better article! Fungi are fascinating, on the same order as viruses. It's a marvel of nature, fascinating and also terrifying.
I sometimes wish I studied biology instead of computer science, it's a fascinating field!
I just watched a Nova episode last night about the intelligence of the single-cell slime mold. They can go through a maze to find food and other interesting things. Fascinating.
One of my maxims is that "human imagination is remixed of subset of reality". The creatures of our fairy tales (centaurs, faeries, elves, orc, etc) are incredibly lame compared to the magnificent breadth of diversity we find in nature when we look.
We can only dream of the wonders we'll find on other worlds.
We can only dream of the wonders we'll find on other worlds.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."