'Time Cells' Discovered in Human Brains(npr.org)
npr.org
'Time Cells' Discovered in Human Brains
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/10/29/929133717/why-some-memories-seem-like-movies-time-cells-discovered-in-human-brains
132 comments
I read the book and can recommend it. Very interesting!
Even just the idea that there are specific cells for this is fascinating, and the fact that they change their 'tick' speed based on mood/interest? I should read the paper!:
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/10/26/2013250117
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/10/26/2013250117
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Memory is a crazy thing. What I find particularly interesting is that some people recall memories in first person, and others in third person. Baffling.
I never thought about this, but if there's two ways to remember events there's probably also three, four.. or more?
All my memories have George Clooney in the role as me.
Yes.
There's a whole field of study (often decried as pseudoscience) of the structure of subjective experience called Neurolinguistic Programming. Within it there's a constellation of concepts and techniques around deliberately altering your subjective experience.
For example, the first person / third person difference is referred to as "associated" / "disassociated" in the NLP jargon, and you can change which "mode" you use for a given memory and that will (typically) change the subjective effects of the memory.
You can use this to e.g., fall in(out) of love with someone. Recall all the good times with that person in associated(disassociated) mode and all the bad times with that person in disassociated(associated) mode and it will (typically) have a profound effect on your feeling towards that person.
Neat, eh?
There's a whole body of work around manipulation of time-coding. Some people see e.g. the past to the left and the future to the right,while others have the past behind them and the future ahead of them. Those are just two common styles of "timeline". Changing your time-coding can have profound effects on your psychology.
The real information revolution has only just begun and it doesn't have a lot to do with tiny transistors, if you catch my drift.
There's a whole field of study (often decried as pseudoscience) of the structure of subjective experience called Neurolinguistic Programming. Within it there's a constellation of concepts and techniques around deliberately altering your subjective experience.
For example, the first person / third person difference is referred to as "associated" / "disassociated" in the NLP jargon, and you can change which "mode" you use for a given memory and that will (typically) change the subjective effects of the memory.
You can use this to e.g., fall in(out) of love with someone. Recall all the good times with that person in associated(disassociated) mode and all the bad times with that person in disassociated(associated) mode and it will (typically) have a profound effect on your feeling towards that person.
Neat, eh?
There's a whole body of work around manipulation of time-coding. Some people see e.g. the past to the left and the future to the right,while others have the past behind them and the future ahead of them. Those are just two common styles of "timeline". Changing your time-coding can have profound effects on your psychology.
The real information revolution has only just begun and it doesn't have a lot to do with tiny transistors, if you catch my drift.
All my childhood memories are in the third person. But I'm not sure if its due to the influence of pictures from those eras influencing how I visualize the memory or that its intrinsically third-person.
Just want to mention here that people exist wich can’t recall a memory trough mental images. It’s called aphantasia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
I can't really relate to the article's description of episodic memory. I'm also aphantastic. I wonder if there is a correlation or if it's just coincidence.
These things are surprisingly little studied, for example aphantasia has only really seen scientific interest in the last ten years. We all seem to assume that everyone's experience is the same as ours, only slowly discovering how untrue that really is. Even something "obvious" like colour blindness in only known for about 250 years.
These things are surprisingly little studied, for example aphantasia has only really seen scientific interest in the last ten years. We all seem to assume that everyone's experience is the same as ours, only slowly discovering how untrue that really is. Even something "obvious" like colour blindness in only known for about 250 years.
This has been particularly interesting to me because I can usually only relate to system design in software visually.
It works wonders for me personally to see code blocks as literal blocks that do X and connect to other blocks via graph edges. Then I pseudocode what I want and replace.
Whiteboarding is a bit difficult if I can't visualize transformations or stores of data in some way, or if I can't see a theoretical big picture for a particular function.
It works wonders for me personally to see code blocks as literal blocks that do X and connect to other blocks via graph edges. Then I pseudocode what I want and replace.
Whiteboarding is a bit difficult if I can't visualize transformations or stores of data in some way, or if I can't see a theoretical big picture for a particular function.
Not long after finding out about Aphantasia I found out about Severely Deficient Autobiographical Memory (SDAM) which I felt described my experience of life very well.
SDAM isn't a recognised 'condition' as such, but it has a subreddit with some active users to compare your experiences with which you may find useful.
https://old.reddit.com/r/SDAM/
SDAM isn't a recognised 'condition' as such, but it has a subreddit with some active users to compare your experiences with which you may find useful.
https://old.reddit.com/r/SDAM/
Wow, looks like I have to add SDAM to the list of ways I'm different, on top of Aphantasia, not having episodic memory and not being able to vividly recall sounds or smells. At least I don't seem to have Prosopagnosia (A serious downgrade of your facial recognition).
That list is pretty long, I'm not sure how to feel about that. (Probably because I generally seem to have less extreme emotional reactions)
A study from May 2020 [1] seems to show a strong correlation between these symptoms, suggesting that the underlying cause may be the same.
1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308278/
That list is pretty long, I'm not sure how to feel about that. (Probably because I generally seem to have less extreme emotional reactions)
A study from May 2020 [1] seems to show a strong correlation between these symptoms, suggesting that the underlying cause may be the same.
1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308278/
Thank you for pointing this out. I wasn't aware of SDAM and it ticks a few boxes for me.
On a related note... If you suspect that you have one of these conditions, is there someone you can talk to for confirmation? Are there people who specialize in... bad brain RAM?
On a related note... If you suspect that you have one of these conditions, is there someone you can talk to for confirmation? Are there people who specialize in... bad brain RAM?
huh... I dont have any movie like memories... is this something I should be concerned about?
I don’t think so. If you don’t have any memories that are visual at all, you probably just have aphantasia.
There are individual differences in autobiographical memory [1]. I don't have any memories like this either.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29807853/
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29807853/
Yes, I mean I can certainly vaguely visualize past moments in some 50/50 abstract/visual form I guess, but movie like... I'm unsure what they mean to be honest... and I'm sure that would be hard to explain as well. I guess I can see these "movies" mentally in the same way as how I vaguely remember the sequence of events in a recent dream. Unsure if I'd call that a movie though. Sounds like a pretty crappy one at that!
I always wondered this during meditation in high school: Do people actually see things when they close their eyes? The whole “you are at a beach, there is a gentle breeze...” never did anything for me. I can remember colors, relative positions, even how a specific place looked overall fairly well, but I don’t see anything.
You likely have Aphantasia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
As for your question, yes! I don't need to actually close my eyes, I can think about certain things and see a vivid image of it deep inside of my mind.
If you need something to compare it to, can you actually hear music in your "mind" when you think about a song? It's kinda like that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia
As for your question, yes! I don't need to actually close my eyes, I can think about certain things and see a vivid image of it deep inside of my mind.
If you need something to compare it to, can you actually hear music in your "mind" when you think about a song? It's kinda like that.
Anectotally, aphantasia seems highly correlated with reading HN (or probably programmers in general). HN threads about aphantasia-related topics always have lots of people with aphantasia, while these people make up a much smaller proportion in for example reddit threads about the same topic.
Just piling on to say that I learned that I have aphantasia from a HN thread about it a few years ago. I don't think it discriminates but it has been stated that many creative people (artists, animators, etc...) also have aphantasia. It could be that the HN population just has a lot of creative types, which does jive with the overall theme of this place.
I would not go as far. Self selecting bias is probably the reason. People without aphantasia just don't comment in these threads.
However we can say HN is the site where people with aphantasia feel safe when describing what they experience.
However we can say HN is the site where people with aphantasia feel safe when describing what they experience.
I wish we had a better way of conveying what goes on in our heads.
I have dreams and I can visualize things, but it's never like I'm "watching" a dream or memory. While I'm dreaming it feels real, but when I recall a dream it feels visually distinct from a lived experience. It's like I "see" things but my eyes aren't doing the seeing. Is that what others experience, or are dreams visually identical to the real world?
I have dreams and I can visualize things, but it's never like I'm "watching" a dream or memory. While I'm dreaming it feels real, but when I recall a dream it feels visually distinct from a lived experience. It's like I "see" things but my eyes aren't doing the seeing. Is that what others experience, or are dreams visually identical to the real world?
To me dreams are visually alike the real world. Sometimes I struggle to remember if a particular memory happened in dream or real life (provided nothing too wacky happened).
you ever had a dream?
I guess this is a different thing, but...
When I was a kid I read a book that said if before you go to sleep you think "I will wake up at Xam" (whatever time you want) then you wake up at exactly that time. Which is pretty weird! We can't do that when we're awake. It actually works, and I've never needed an alarm clock. For a few ultra-important days I used one, like catching a plane, but I was always awake before it went off.
I have no idea how it works.
When I was a kid I read a book that said if before you go to sleep you think "I will wake up at Xam" (whatever time you want) then you wake up at exactly that time. Which is pretty weird! We can't do that when we're awake. It actually works, and I've never needed an alarm clock. For a few ultra-important days I used one, like catching a plane, but I was always awake before it went off.
I have no idea how it works.
> We can't do that when we're awake
I started using a timer about ten years ago for mundane tasks (getting done a chunk of unpleasant work, or for cooking) and these days I'll get up from my desk to go check on the oven right before the timer rings.
It works regardless of the length of the timer, and even when I don't know exactly how many minutes it is (twisty analog oven dial).
I don't consciously know how much time is left, but somehow I do know when "it's time."
Haven't tested this on longer timescales (hours) though, but I did meet a guy who said he always knew what time it was because he used to work for a TV station doing the countdown til they go on air.
I started using a timer about ten years ago for mundane tasks (getting done a chunk of unpleasant work, or for cooking) and these days I'll get up from my desk to go check on the oven right before the timer rings.
It works regardless of the length of the timer, and even when I don't know exactly how many minutes it is (twisty analog oven dial).
I don't consciously know how much time is left, but somehow I do know when "it's time."
Haven't tested this on longer timescales (hours) though, but I did meet a guy who said he always knew what time it was because he used to work for a TV station doing the countdown til they go on air.
This happens a lot in hospitality. Most chefs I know (myself included), set a timer, then go back to the job just before the timer goes off.
If someone asks me the time I'll often respond without looking "about 2.30". Then after digging out my phone check and see it's actually "2.35".
Your perception of time is off, you are perceiving time to be passing slower than it actually is. Right now it only seems like 5 minutes, but over time these error minutes will accumulate and you will feel like you have lived less life than you actually have lived in real time.
If you did not know how old you were, one day you might be asked to guess, and think you are 63, but then be told the truth and come to the chilling realization you are actually 82 and near death. That is the danger of lagging time perception.
If you did not know how old you were, one day you might be asked to guess, and think you are 63, but then be told the truth and come to the chilling realization you are actually 82 and near death. That is the danger of lagging time perception.
What form of satire could this be?
Is this Poe's Law?
Why is this down voted? It's obviously a joke (and reasonably funny too)...
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People here take this website Very Seriously ™
Around here words must not be structured in such a way that it might elicit some residual feelings of joy. When detected they must be thoroughly eradicated.
Still, some individuals endure the risk of ostracization by carefully camouflaging such payloads to avoid detection. Often they still fail, as the detection systems become more fit through continuous training data and unsupervised learning.
Still, some individuals endure the risk of ostracization by carefully camouflaging such payloads to avoid detection. Often they still fail, as the detection systems become more fit through continuous training data and unsupervised learning.
I have the exact opposite sense of time. I'm frequently several minutes late to meetings because I've completely lost track of time. I'm very cue-dependent, and with this everything-at-home lifestyle we've transitioned to, I often have split-second confusion that I'm just having lunch in the middle of the day and have to go back to work in a minute and not go take a shower like it's after dinner.
I've had both of the experiences described in this thread, and I believe the key is whether you genuinely want to do the thing at the time.
If you actually want to wake up at the prescribed time, you can do it. If you think you SHOULD wake up at the time, no dice.
If you have 27 minutes of working on something you want to work on before a time limit for something else you want to do, you'll know. If you have a time limit before something you "should" do? no dice.
There is quite a bit of stuff in life that works this way, and it was shocking to me how often I've confused what I "should" want with what I actually want.
If you actually want to wake up at the prescribed time, you can do it. If you think you SHOULD wake up at the time, no dice.
If you have 27 minutes of working on something you want to work on before a time limit for something else you want to do, you'll know. If you have a time limit before something you "should" do? no dice.
There is quite a bit of stuff in life that works this way, and it was shocking to me how often I've confused what I "should" want with what I actually want.
If you haven't before, consider looking into whether or not you might have ADHD.
I was diagnosed with ADD as a kid and took Ritalin for a little while, but hated it so I convinced my parents to let me stop. I haven't sought medication or treatment since then. I can manage it really well if I'm intentional about how I arrange and use my environment, and it usually seems like the bursts of intense focus and creativity compensate for the tendency to be distracted and chasing multiple concurrent threads. Granted, I need a manager and work environment that indulges my need to deep dive on something without a lot of structure occasionally. Losing those bursts and everything becoming kind of gray scale is why I hated taking the meds as a kid.
It's a long conversation and hard to have here/in-comments, but I'd encourage you to look into it again, for several reasons. I get the focus/creativity aspect for sure!
1. Medications have come a long way, and there's more than just Ritalin (or Adderall) as options. I get the grey scale concept, but I don't think it has to be that way. There are varying doses and varying medications, and you might find something that is almost all upside with (possibly) no downside.
2. You might perceive yourself to be managing / coping fine (and you might be, I don't mean that in any disrespectful way!) but there could be vast undiscovered focus abilities you could access. For me personally, the difference on and off medication is VAST.
3. You might not always have that manager/environment. Or (what happened for me) someday you might (already) have a family, and fewer options for those bursts of focus. I used to work until 3am when I was on a roll, but now I can't.
4. The distraction / multiple threads stuff can have other impacts on your own self-image. Depends on how well it's managed I guess, in the world and inside your head.
Good luck! :)
1. Medications have come a long way, and there's more than just Ritalin (or Adderall) as options. I get the grey scale concept, but I don't think it has to be that way. There are varying doses and varying medications, and you might find something that is almost all upside with (possibly) no downside.
2. You might perceive yourself to be managing / coping fine (and you might be, I don't mean that in any disrespectful way!) but there could be vast undiscovered focus abilities you could access. For me personally, the difference on and off medication is VAST.
3. You might not always have that manager/environment. Or (what happened for me) someday you might (already) have a family, and fewer options for those bursts of focus. I used to work until 3am when I was on a roll, but now I can't.
4. The distraction / multiple threads stuff can have other impacts on your own self-image. Depends on how well it's managed I guess, in the world and inside your head.
Good luck! :)
Tbh you just gotta find something you love doing and the rest will resolve itself
Don't let society dictate how your brain should function.
You are fine and valid the way you are, and don't let anyone call you a disorder.
You are fine and valid the way you are, and don't let anyone call you a disorder.
ADHD and Autism are "spectrum" disorders. Meaning that in a sense, we ALL have them to varying degrees, on a spectrum.
(For example, we can all be distractable..)
The definition of a disorder is that it's interfering with your life. So, if it's not bothering you, ALL GOOD. :) You don't have a disorder.
I appreciate that you're well-intentioned. And of course if someone is happy exactly as they are, that's awesomesauce!
But to the degree someone expresses that they struggle with something, and they might benefit from learning more or exploring options, it's not wrong to gently and respectfully encourage them to explore learning/options.
It doesn't mean someone is "calling them" something.
The definition of a disorder is that it's interfering with your life. So, if it's not bothering you, ALL GOOD. :) You don't have a disorder.
I appreciate that you're well-intentioned. And of course if someone is happy exactly as they are, that's awesomesauce!
But to the degree someone expresses that they struggle with something, and they might benefit from learning more or exploring options, it's not wrong to gently and respectfully encourage them to explore learning/options.
It doesn't mean someone is "calling them" something.
Yeah, that's the narrative I fed myself since I was a teenager, and I had plenty of validation for it from family members that loved me. I was just "too smart" to sit in class bored all day or whatever. I'm trying to question that narrative. The burst of focus and creativity might be great, but I wonder if the sibling commenter is right that I could be missing out on vast, untapped potential and I might not lose the upside. I don't know.
> I was just "too smart" to sit in class bored all day or whatever.
Yes, you WERE too smart to be forced to sit around and learn at a pace that was way too slow for you.
Imagine how much you could have learned if you were progressing at your own pace (let's say top 10%) rather than school curriculum pace (let's say tuned for 90% of students to keep up)
Think about how much more successful you could have been in programming if you had learned calculus by 8th grade, a task I'd say at least half our U.S population is capable of.
Instead, you are forced to put up with the same spoonfeeding as everyone else, and if you don't like it, you have a disorder?
You were rightfully frustrated and upset at this waste of your time. Not to mention how unnatural and unhealthy it is to sit in place for hours at a time.
It's not a disorder, it's a natural response to reality.
Yes, you WERE too smart to be forced to sit around and learn at a pace that was way too slow for you.
Imagine how much you could have learned if you were progressing at your own pace (let's say top 10%) rather than school curriculum pace (let's say tuned for 90% of students to keep up)
Think about how much more successful you could have been in programming if you had learned calculus by 8th grade, a task I'd say at least half our U.S population is capable of.
Instead, you are forced to put up with the same spoonfeeding as everyone else, and if you don't like it, you have a disorder?
You were rightfully frustrated and upset at this waste of your time. Not to mention how unnatural and unhealthy it is to sit in place for hours at a time.
It's not a disorder, it's a natural response to reality.
> if you had learned calculus by 8th grade
Joke's on you. I still haven't learned calculus.
Joke's on you. I still haven't learned calculus.
I have a very similar experience of time, and have only now late life gotten some insight in to my past struggles with a ADHD diagnosis.
Worth looking in to foooor sure.
Worth looking in to foooor sure.
I'd love to hear more. I've definitely lived with the downsides, but my experience with medicating for it as pre-teen was so negative that I have been extremely reticent to seek treatment since.
First off I’d say that medicating as an adult is an entirely different experience than as a child (I have children, but was not medicated as a child, so YMMV) mainly because you can almost immediately tell the difference and you have the language necessary to properly discuss pros/cons/adjustments with your doctor.
As well, we now know that like hormonal birth control there’s no one pill that’s right for everyone so it’s awesome to have people be open to the adjustment process.
From a life perspective, even without medication it’s been extremely helpful for me to see (for example) my lateness for what it mostly is: my brain is driven by the desire to be fully engaged. In the past I have been late not only because I forgot (which is easy(ish) to deal with by sticking to the calendar), but because in the “dead” time before a timed event I am driven to fill it with things I used to deem “worthwhile”, and would focus intently to turn up the engagement (obviously) thus lose track of time and suddenly find myself in a time crunch. Anything from “just a quick level” of a fast-paced fps, fast racing game, or sparkly new mobile game to picking up a sidelined woodworking project or (more often honestly) grabbing a work-task off the todo list.
And, I will say that it feels great to be fully engaged and “firing on all cylinders” (I’m really enjoying Space Pirate Trainer on quest this month), but in the past where I would say subconsciously to myself “This is what I’m made for!” and push other things aside, now I can recognize the drive to what’s unique or engaging as being just about those two things, and I can properly choose what my priorities are.
As well, we now know that like hormonal birth control there’s no one pill that’s right for everyone so it’s awesome to have people be open to the adjustment process.
From a life perspective, even without medication it’s been extremely helpful for me to see (for example) my lateness for what it mostly is: my brain is driven by the desire to be fully engaged. In the past I have been late not only because I forgot (which is easy(ish) to deal with by sticking to the calendar), but because in the “dead” time before a timed event I am driven to fill it with things I used to deem “worthwhile”, and would focus intently to turn up the engagement (obviously) thus lose track of time and suddenly find myself in a time crunch. Anything from “just a quick level” of a fast-paced fps, fast racing game, or sparkly new mobile game to picking up a sidelined woodworking project or (more often honestly) grabbing a work-task off the todo list.
And, I will say that it feels great to be fully engaged and “firing on all cylinders” (I’m really enjoying Space Pirate Trainer on quest this month), but in the past where I would say subconsciously to myself “This is what I’m made for!” and push other things aside, now I can recognize the drive to what’s unique or engaging as being just about those two things, and I can properly choose what my priorities are.
There's more to treatment than just medication. A good therapist specializing in ADHD will help you figure out how to build habits and processes to cope.
Also an interesting point: I’m also very cue-dependant. I’ve spent most of my life structuring my tasks and habits around cues. It is tricky as heck as I’m sure you know. This too can be an indication of ADHD as the ADHD brain is more likely to be really good with connections between things.
Yeah, I find myself encouraging others to explore this stuff until it's fully resolved in your mind, because of the difference it's made in my life and in others I've seen personally.
I worked in the culinary world for a long time and we called this our “oh shit!” timer — being caught up in some task to suddenly remember to open the oven at the perfect moment before something burns.
Curious if you play/ed a musical instrument? I learned violin as a child and also experience the same phenomenon you describe, but I always attributed it to some neural pathway that was created during musical training (i.e. reading sheet music).
My asleep brain can do the exact same thing, even with consistent sleep deprivation (although it gets increasingly difficult beyond a sleep deficit of twelve hours per week).
On the flip side, my awake brain is completely and totally time-blind. I can go _hours_ on a subject I am obsessing over, and think it’s been just thirty minutes. Asperger’s sucks.
On the flip side, my awake brain is completely and totally time-blind. I can go _hours_ on a subject I am obsessing over, and think it’s been just thirty minutes. Asperger’s sucks.
I do it to when I need to wake up early so my body is not "surprised" by the low amount of sleep. Works well I think.
Do you calculate how many hours you will sleep ? Maybe the brain set some kind of a timer.
I heard this from someone who swore it worked for her too, but it has never worked for me. It must be a superpower! :)
It's not a superpower. For me it's a combination of two: Urgency and having had enough sleep. If I have a flight, I almost always wake up 30 minutes before my timer go off; even if I didn't get enough sleep. If I have nothing important to do the next day, my brain will usually ignore the waking up part and carries on.
One thing I noticed is that in the last year I have been waking up just a few minutes before my alarm goes off. My postulation is the iPhone alarm sound. It's bizarrely painful that I think I'm waking up just before it to avoid hearing it.
One thing I noticed is that in the last year I have been waking up just a few minutes before my alarm goes off. My postulation is the iPhone alarm sound. It's bizarrely painful that I think I'm waking up just before it to avoid hearing it.
Yup, have experienced it personally. I usually wake up few mins before the alarm goes off. Though not proven through science you know something is there.
Another thing I would like to add is that scientific community should be more open to test conventional wisdom.
Another thing I would like to add is that scientific community should be more open to test conventional wisdom.
Why do you think science has not researched this and found it largely to be true? Here's one article on the subject
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...
They have, and thats how its confirmed. My comment is more around the social or cultural wisdom being mocked or ignored. I understand where it started from or why it was necessary, but the pendulum has sung too far.
But the social or cultural wisdom wasn't ignored, it was tested and found to be accurate. It's not about the pendulum swinging too far, cultural wisdom is mocked because it is often nonsense people convince themselves is true.
Thank you! PDF here https://www.academia.edu/download/44704857/Awakening_from_sl...
For those who this does not work..
Try tapping your forehead with forefinger while counting up to the time you want to wake up just before you close your eyes to go to sleep..
eg to wake at 6am...
tap six times while saying "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6"
Repeat 2 times, (3 times in total)
Try tapping your forehead with forefinger while counting up to the time you want to wake up just before you close your eyes to go to sleep..
eg to wake at 6am...
tap six times while saying "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6"
Repeat 2 times, (3 times in total)
There’s a term / name for this method.
Emotional freedom technique (EFT)?
Emotional freedom technique (EFT)?
I had never heard of this..
Seems it is for relieving emotional stress but i had only used it specifically to wake up at a specific time.
https://www.healthline.com/health/eft-tapping
Seems it is for relieving emotional stress but i had only used it specifically to wake up at a specific time.
https://www.healthline.com/health/eft-tapping
EFT is unrelated to head tapping for setting internal wake up calls.
In EFT you're tapping on the end points of the meridian lines to send a kind of "reset pulse" to clear emotional issues. (At least that's the concept.)
To set a "wake up call" you (basicplus2) tap your head with your finger, but probably not on a meridian point, and you're not trying to clear an emotional issue. Also, some people tap their whole head on their pillow instead.
In EFT you're tapping on the end points of the meridian lines to send a kind of "reset pulse" to clear emotional issues. (At least that's the concept.)
To set a "wake up call" you (basicplus2) tap your head with your finger, but probably not on a meridian point, and you're not trying to clear an emotional issue. Also, some people tap their whole head on their pillow instead.
There is definitely something to this.
A similar phenomenon occurs on public transit-- waking up at (or just before) your stop. I found that if I've taken the trip at least once, I can wake up pretty much exactly when I need to. Nearly every other frequent commuter I've discussed this with has a similar experience.
I used to believe it was related to subtle audio/visual cues while unconscious, but it might just be a function of a sense of time.
A similar phenomenon occurs on public transit-- waking up at (or just before) your stop. I found that if I've taken the trip at least once, I can wake up pretty much exactly when I need to. Nearly every other frequent commuter I've discussed this with has a similar experience.
I used to believe it was related to subtle audio/visual cues while unconscious, but it might just be a function of a sense of time.
Yeah, does seem more likely it's my brain knowing the time fairly accurately from the early morning light levels, bird song, traffic noises, temperature, smells in the air etc, and other cues I'm not consciously aware of, than that I have a timer, accurate to a few minutes over 9 or 10 hours, in my body.
Was it "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind" that you read, by any chance? I remember reading that there and applying it as well and it did kind of work. I've read that as kid as well, so maybe that has to do with something. I regard that books as a pseudoscience from today's time, but who knows.
No, it was a book for kids about time and measurement or something..in the early 80s.
Gary Halbert, one of the best copywriters of all time, uses a time method to check if his mind was sharp. He will guess at how much time has passed without looking at a clock. The closer he was to the real time the better.
That's interesting. I thought I had read that older people perceive time more slowly than younger people but I wonder if that can be overcome by keeping our sense of time-telling "calibrated" by periodically checking our accuracy.
I’ve heard that story before and it was effectively centered on the fact that each year was a proportionally smaller part of your life as you get older.
But feels like it wouldn’t be hard for that long term sense of time to be fairly disconnected with a very short term one.
But feels like it wouldn’t be hard for that long term sense of time to be fairly disconnected with a very short term one.
I thought it was the other way around? As you get older your perceive time as moving more quickly? As you get older every hour is a smaller percentage of your total life, so that made sense to me?
I think this is a side effect of one's life becoming more routinized as they grow older, and having fewer memorable moments in each day.
Anecdotally, I had this feeling of time moving more and more quickly, and "that thing which feels just a week ago was actually a year ago" until my early 30s, when I finally decided to unsubscribe from routines.
As I gradually moved away from having a daily schedule, I had more time for unique and memorable experiences in my everyday life, and this feeling began to change.
Nowadays, it is actualy more typical for me to feel the other way, meaning something which was just a week ago feels like it was much longer.
Anecdotally, I had this feeling of time moving more and more quickly, and "that thing which feels just a week ago was actually a year ago" until my early 30s, when I finally decided to unsubscribe from routines.
As I gradually moved away from having a daily schedule, I had more time for unique and memorable experiences in my everyday life, and this feeling began to change.
Nowadays, it is actualy more typical for me to feel the other way, meaning something which was just a week ago feels like it was much longer.
This sounds super interesting! What do you mean by unsubscribe from routines? Could you give some examples? What effects did doing this have on your life?
My experiences with this suggest that “long” spans of time (weeks->years) follow the “smaller percentage of your life” principle. However, occasions “in the moment” get perceived according to the rules applicable for that moment:
- boring things: usually a slow dirge or filled with brief distractions
- novel things: either no sense of time passing, or a feeling of time going anywhere from slowly to “endless”
- mundane things: time passes “at a familiar rate”, but I remember fee details later
- boring things: usually a slow dirge or filled with brief distractions
- novel things: either no sense of time passing, or a feeling of time going anywhere from slowly to “endless”
- mundane things: time passes “at a familiar rate”, but I remember fee details later
You're absolutely right. Total brain fart and it's too late for me to correct it with an edit.
Yeah I had similar experiences.
If I want to wake up really early for something I think is important, even if I stay up late, I just need to tell myself to wake up at $time and it works.
If I want to wake up really early for something I think is important, even if I stay up late, I just need to tell myself to wake up at $time and it works.
When I was a kid, we used to have a radio/tape/CD player with a digital clock on it. Whenever I looked at it, as in whenever my body thought it would be a good idea to check the time, it was always something like 11:11 or 16:16.
Maybe that's true, but when I hear people say they always look at their watches at 12:34 or such a thing, I suspect (because it never happened to me!) it's probably something akin to the Baader-Meinhof illusion, "where something that has recently come to one's attention suddenly seems to appear with improbable frequency shortly afterwards." There are many similar phenonema humans fall victim to, thanks to our cognitive biases - our brains not as good at certain things as we'd like to think.
You tend to only remember what seem those unusual times. And the more you freak out about it, and wonder what the hell's going on, the more you remember seeing them, and the more you look..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequ...
You tend to only remember what seem those unusual times. And the more you freak out about it, and wonder what the hell's going on, the more you remember seeing them, and the more you look..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Frequ...
It happens to me pretty frequently. In truth, I know that I look at the digital clock on my microwave probably 100 times a day.
It might also be precognition?
Or 12:34 or sometimes my birthday.
It is more likely that those are the instances you remember because they stand out as compared to other uninteresting instances. So you get the impression that the former happens more often.
Yes, I too am a fan of repdigits.
Haha, I know that's weird but actually I've noticed that myself happening a lot - thought I might be the only one! :)
Likewise. It works for insane times too; I've woken up in as little as 3 hours when I desperately needed 8 hours. There's a bit of a computational alarm clock in our brains somehow.
A couple of weeks ago I woke up in the middle of the night. My first thought was, it's 2:54am. I didn't have any visible clocks, so I looked at my phone, and it was 2:53am. I've had that happen multiple times. Very strange.
I noticed years ago when at a bus stop, I'd get impatient and antsy seconds before the bus arrived (on time). I figured it was my subconscious alarm clock.
Are we supposed to have non-movie-like memories about the past? I mean, other than remembering "knowledge" such as sentences or dates or numbers or geography, etc, it seems that all memory about my "actual life" is movie-like.
I remember both moments and "movies". Some memories are more like pictures, usually accompanied with emotions. Other memories are more like movies, where I visualize the events unfold.
I seldom remember what I dream, but when I do it's usually right before I wake up in the morning, and it feels like being in a movie. I often get aware that I'm dreaming and can control the movie (dream) to some extent. I can then get really annoyed when the alarm clock goes off before the exciting part is over.
I seldom remember what I dream, but when I do it's usually right before I wake up in the morning, and it feels like being in a movie. I often get aware that I'm dreaming and can control the movie (dream) to some extent. I can then get really annoyed when the alarm clock goes off before the exciting part is over.
I experience movie-like dreams, but not movie-like memories. Not just the imagery (which is obvious, I'm aphantastic), but my memories aren't episodic at all. I have a sense of happened-after relations, but those are different from experiencing things one after another.
Somewhat related, while I can't visualize memories I do visualize dreams. That would leave me to believe that dreams are fundamentally different (see also how the body has to seize many motor functions during dreaming, but we can use all of them during remembering).
Somewhat related, while I can't visualize memories I do visualize dreams. That would leave me to believe that dreams are fundamentally different (see also how the body has to seize many motor functions during dreaming, but we can use all of them during remembering).
I would be very interested to see a study about how these cells function under ADHD, because as I'm sure any sufferer would tell you - our time perception is very very weird.
My experience is that it is much more difficult to focus on any individual task, but much easier to enter a 'flow' state with ADHD.
If I can manage to do 'thing a', I find that often, all the world falls away - regardless of what the thing is.
I also have a theory, completely unfounded and out of my own ass, that ADHD and other similar issues are just part of the spectrum that is autism. Any scientist want to confirm my personal belief?
If I can manage to do 'thing a', I find that often, all the world falls away - regardless of what the thing is.
I also have a theory, completely unfounded and out of my own ass, that ADHD and other similar issues are just part of the spectrum that is autism. Any scientist want to confirm my personal belief?
From what I understand ADHD and Autism share some symptoms but ADHD isn’t part of the spectrum because the causes are different.
It’s generally understood that the effects of ADHD diminish as you get older but the effects of Autism do not.
It’s generally understood that the effects of ADHD diminish as you get older but the effects of Autism do not.
My current understanding from the research I've read but don't have to hand:
a) A lot of people with ADHD also have autism so the symptoms get lumped together but ADHD's actual symptoms (executive function issues, time blindness, rejection sensitivity, unexpected drug interactions etc) are completely unrelated
b) ADHD symptoms never go away, adults just learn to hide them and develop coping strategies because it's largely socially unacceptable to be weird
So Jack reacher was not lying then. Good to know
very interesting discovery!
When I was young, I received a serious blow to my head while playing soccer that broke my skull and caused all sorts of issues at the time. I've managed a full recovery, but in the days following the accident, I lost my intuition of time. It's difficult to explain: I knew, logically, that I had lunch before I had dinner - and I had memory of doing both - but I couldn't "feel" that lunch was before dinner. It's pretty hard to explain and it was pretty weird to experience, but this symptom faded away after a couple of days.
I kind of know what you mean. In my case, it was due a psychedelic substance. I vividly remember being inside, walking out in the street and opening the door to go out, in that order. Made me feel very confused because I knew that logically it could not have gone that way, yet that was the chronology in my mind.
Trytpamines are such a great way to look at the brain! Disruption of time / space / body / mind. Robin Carhart-Harris has done some great work, MAPS, etc.
I wonder if this is something that is going wrong in my brain lol. I have a hard time remembering when exactly things happened (to figure out in what year I started school I basically have to walk backwards through my memories keeping track of some kind of time marker like seasons, like traversing a linked list). I often joke that if I ever was a suspect in a criminal investigation it would be very difficult for me to provide an alibi. It feels like a lot of day to day memories don't get 'time-stamped' at all.
I always thought this mainly had to do with ADD related working memory problems, but maybe it's more of an episodic memory problem?
I always thought this mainly had to do with ADD related working memory problems, but maybe it's more of an episodic memory problem?
This sounds exactly how my sense of chronology works. I have to find time markers and work my way from those to arrive at when a related memory occurred. I'll frequently reference photos that I happen to know has some obscure clue in it like a shirt a family member was wearing because I knew they had that shirt when I went to X event, which I still have a ticket stub memento for, therefor it was Y date.
I always attributed this to being home schooled (really just kind of free-range unschooled) until I was 14. I feel like I'm missing a lot of date-significant markers like passing from one grade to the next that most people have.
I always attributed this to being home schooled (really just kind of free-range unschooled) until I was 14. I feel like I'm missing a lot of date-significant markers like passing from one grade to the next that most people have.
I think that's normal and precisely the mechanism the article is referring to?
Not being able to recall the year something occurred if you don't reflect on that memory every so often seems "normal" as well.
Not being able to recall the year something occurred if you don't reflect on that memory every so often seems "normal" as well.
I have this too, and would describe it exactly the same. I think this is common with ADD.
This title seems very misleading given the study described. They have found a correlation between some neurons firing in sequence and a list of words being spoken from memory. We don't have any concrete understanding of how memories are really encoded, stored, and recalled. Indeed, we don't even know if "encoded", "stored", and "recalled" are useful approximations for what's really going on in there. So suggesting that we have found some specific time keeping module seems awfully hand-wavy (at best) to me.
I thought we had discovered pacemaker cells over 20 years ago. I'd be very surprised if that didn't already factor into hypotheses of how episodic memory is ordered. Either this article is disingenuous, or neuroscience suffers from deep fragmentation that is hindering progress.
https://www.hhmi.org/news/researchers-discover-molecular-pac...
https://www.hhmi.org/news/researchers-discover-molecular-pac...
Related: breathing is semi-autonomous, and controlled in the brain:
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2017/08/408006/searching-brain-cel...
We can be aware of our breathing or not, yawn, and hold our breath. I imagine we can do similar with our sense of time: count seconds, have a sense of time, and lose our sense of time (on purpose or by accident).
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2017/08/408006/searching-brain-cel...
We can be aware of our breathing or not, yawn, and hold our breath. I imagine we can do similar with our sense of time: count seconds, have a sense of time, and lose our sense of time (on purpose or by accident).
The prior probability of you being wrong about facts in another field is fairly high.
The prior probability of the researcher being wrong about facts in their own field is much lower.
Therefore the default assumption one should have when reviewing research from a field that is NOT their own is closer to "I am the idiot" than "The researchers are the idiots".
in my humble opinion.
The prior probability of the researcher being wrong about facts in their own field is much lower.
Therefore the default assumption one should have when reviewing research from a field that is NOT their own is closer to "I am the idiot" than "The researchers are the idiots".
in my humble opinion.
The years I've gone to SFN, I've been amazed at how fragmented the field is. People get into neuroscience from all sorts of places. Neurosurgery, C. elegans research, optogenetic studies, fmri studies, biochemistry: these approaches to neuroscience are often so different they don't know about the advances of the others.
Should have gone to HBM I guess ;)
I suppose my comment was a bit strong. My Ph.D was on the the hippocampus and the development of binding operations supporting episodic memory using standard MRI and cognitive tasks, and I already know I don't understand half of what they are doing in more basic neuroscience articles.
No worries!
I have no problem with the paper authors. Most of the authors on the paper come from neurosurgery/neurology, and I don't doubt for one second that they have a strong grasp of "I can mess with the human brain in these ways and I'll get these behaviors". They shouldn't be expected to know everything we've ever looked at for time in the brain.
I am frustrated at one of the ways science journalism tends to report on neuroscience. I think they want to do it like they do physics, and it affects how people outside the field think. Rather than considering the brain as a complex system, we're looking for the Jennifer Anniston neuron, or time cells, or some single component that explains consciousness, much like we looked for the "god particle" (Higgs) or gravitational waves. It's not a great way to look at things.
My original comment on fragmentation is just my own opinion. Maybe it's not as much of a barrier as I think it is.
I have no problem with the paper authors. Most of the authors on the paper come from neurosurgery/neurology, and I don't doubt for one second that they have a strong grasp of "I can mess with the human brain in these ways and I'll get these behaviors". They shouldn't be expected to know everything we've ever looked at for time in the brain.
I am frustrated at one of the ways science journalism tends to report on neuroscience. I think they want to do it like they do physics, and it affects how people outside the field think. Rather than considering the brain as a complex system, we're looking for the Jennifer Anniston neuron, or time cells, or some single component that explains consciousness, much like we looked for the "god particle" (Higgs) or gravitational waves. It's not a great way to look at things.
My original comment on fragmentation is just my own opinion. Maybe it's not as much of a barrier as I think it is.
Did you actually read both studies? If so, I don't see how you could have arrived at the conclusion that the time cell paper is a rehash of what you linked. They are talking about and focusing on entirely different things.
I hadn't read the paper, just the article. Which is primarily what I was commenting on. When I read "now researchers have identified cells in the human brain that make this sort of memory possible", I was lead to believe that NPR was suggesting that there weren't plausible mechanisms of timekeeping for episodic memory before now. Especially since they don't mention any other mechanisms, and Buzsáki (not a study author) and NPR together imply that people with hippocampal lesions who can't order events correctly are simply missing their time cells.
Anyhow, I've now read much more of the two linked papers, and some related papers.
In the 2011 paper linked from the NPR article, under "Neuronal Ensembles Signal Time, as well as Location and Behavior, during the Delay Period" (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731...) "time cells" are defined under their relation to "place cells". As far as I can tell, this paper coined the term. Now, in this paper, they aren't sure if the time cells are scalar time (Gibbon) or non-linear time (Staddon and Higa) or some combination of the two. Well, Gibbon's scalar expectancy theory for timing (SET) uses pacemaker cells in the theory. Now other papers do want to move away from pacemaker cells: Staddon and Higa point out that the "Weber law" that SET depends on doesn't scale well, so they have other theories. However, I could still imagine that pacemaker and timestamping neural circuits would work together, no?
This review article of timing in the brain seems helpful, though I don't have time to read it fully today: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731... It covers oscillators (pacemaker-accumulator/SET), ramping, and population clocks ("time cells" and other names). I find it problematic that the NPR article only focuses on one name for one possible explanation of the observed behavior. It makes for a nice article, and the metaphor of time cells and place cells are attractive. It doesn't leave
Time cells seem to invoke a chain of neurons firing, to encode events along the chain. I can believe that this orders events on the order of tens of seconds (the literature surveys from milliseconds to tens of seconds). But the NPR article suggests that the ordering of an entire tour of UCSD is also encoded in time cells. I doubt that there was one unending chain of ordering for that entire tour. Personally, I find that I have to reason about time on longer time scales, or I might mix up a recollection of how a story goes. (Once I tell a story a few times, I've learned a new skill--how to tell the story--so it becomes easier to recall a sequence I've chosen to highlight.)
Anyhow, I've now read much more of the two linked papers, and some related papers.
In the 2011 paper linked from the NPR article, under "Neuronal Ensembles Signal Time, as well as Location and Behavior, during the Delay Period" (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731...) "time cells" are defined under their relation to "place cells". As far as I can tell, this paper coined the term. Now, in this paper, they aren't sure if the time cells are scalar time (Gibbon) or non-linear time (Staddon and Higa) or some combination of the two. Well, Gibbon's scalar expectancy theory for timing (SET) uses pacemaker cells in the theory. Now other papers do want to move away from pacemaker cells: Staddon and Higa point out that the "Weber law" that SET depends on doesn't scale well, so they have other theories. However, I could still imagine that pacemaker and timestamping neural circuits would work together, no?
This review article of timing in the brain seems helpful, though I don't have time to read it fully today: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731... It covers oscillators (pacemaker-accumulator/SET), ramping, and population clocks ("time cells" and other names). I find it problematic that the NPR article only focuses on one name for one possible explanation of the observed behavior. It makes for a nice article, and the metaphor of time cells and place cells are attractive. It doesn't leave
Time cells seem to invoke a chain of neurons firing, to encode events along the chain. I can believe that this orders events on the order of tens of seconds (the literature surveys from milliseconds to tens of seconds). But the NPR article suggests that the ordering of an entire tour of UCSD is also encoded in time cells. I doubt that there was one unending chain of ordering for that entire tour. Personally, I find that I have to reason about time on longer time scales, or I might mix up a recollection of how a story goes. (Once I tell a story a few times, I've learned a new skill--how to tell the story--so it becomes easier to recall a sequence I've chosen to highlight.)
This isn't unique to humans or even animals
https://youtu.be/CA-YsWXRSHU?t=448
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabidopsis_thaliana#Light_sen...
It records ~40 days of temperature in a certain range, and remembers it till it senses the light of spring. If it's put into a dark room after 40 days, it waits till it senses light to flower, so it must be remembering those memories of cold temperatures.
https://youtu.be/CA-YsWXRSHU?t=448
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabidopsis_thaliana#Light_sen...
It records ~40 days of temperature in a certain range, and remembers it till it senses the light of spring. If it's put into a dark room after 40 days, it waits till it senses light to flower, so it must be remembering those memories of cold temperatures.
In Sasha Shulgin’s book PIKAL, he describes mixing two drugs, I think it was MMA and cannabis, and experiencing perceived time dilation. He describes it as looking at the hands of a clock and experiencing much more time between the movement of the hands than one normally would. He said it was frightening, so he called his friend to come help. He was able to speak normally and hear people speak normally. While he was on the phone, he asked for a timer to be set while he went to go retrieve something. His experience of walking down the hall and back felt to him like twenty minutes. When he returned to the phone, he was told it had only been two minutes.
The effect wore off by the next day. He was never able to recreate the effect, but he kept a battery of experiments at the ready of it ever happened again. He expressed regret at not being able to carry them out.
He once said that the experience changed his perception of death. If time were to continue dilating, asymptotically approaching a halting of time, then one might never die in their own experience.
The effect wore off by the next day. He was never able to recreate the effect, but he kept a battery of experiments at the ready of it ever happened again. He expressed regret at not being able to carry them out.
He once said that the experience changed his perception of death. If time were to continue dilating, asymptotically approaching a halting of time, then one might never die in their own experience.
Ok, armchair theory here, let's for a moment assume Einstein's belief that time is the fourth dimension.
We use our senses to detect/experience dimensions, right? I mean, we use sight, hearing, touch to detect 3-D space, for example (not forgetting taste and smell too).
If time is the fourth dimension, maybe these cells are our evolutionary attempt to sense/detect and operate within that dimension.
Which explains how the experience of time travel could be possible in at least one way - if we can change/affect our sense/perception of time (um.. navigating time?), it can seem to us like time travel. I'm not saying we would be affecting the timeline itself in this case, I mean more like messing with the sense of time that causes us to "experience" time travel.
Ok sorry, that does too sound like too much armchair pseudoscience, but this article and some of the other comments just got me thinking.
We use our senses to detect/experience dimensions, right? I mean, we use sight, hearing, touch to detect 3-D space, for example (not forgetting taste and smell too).
If time is the fourth dimension, maybe these cells are our evolutionary attempt to sense/detect and operate within that dimension.
Which explains how the experience of time travel could be possible in at least one way - if we can change/affect our sense/perception of time (um.. navigating time?), it can seem to us like time travel. I'm not saying we would be affecting the timeline itself in this case, I mean more like messing with the sense of time that causes us to "experience" time travel.
Ok sorry, that does too sound like too much armchair pseudoscience, but this article and some of the other comments just got me thinking.
Anyway, anyone who found the article interesting might be interested in Moonwalking with Einstein: The Art and Science of Remembering Anything by Joshua Foer. In the book, Foer talks about his experiences with memory championships and fills that in with information about then-current understanding of human memory.
The place I learned to ride a bike is a place I know very well and I’ve used it as a memory palace. I wonder if doing that has somehow modified the perspective on that particular memory. I certainly have other memories which are episodic. Or maybe it’s just so far back in my past and I’ve reconstructed it enough times that it’s not quite as personal or visceral.