Linux 5.10 BTRFS performance regression(reddit.com)
reddit.com
Linux 5.10 BTRFS performance regression
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/kieqyu/warning_linux_510_has_a_500_to_2000_btrfs/
201 comments
I get a vacation? Hah!
Every software has bugs, and is easier to criticize than to help. Don't focus on the negativity of HN and keep it up!
Thanks for your hard work, Greg!
Thanks for your hard work, Greg!
If people don't report bugs, we don't know they are there as it "works for me!".
This isn't "negativity", this is people not understanding how the process works :)
And you're welcome!
This isn't "negativity", this is people not understanding how the process works :)
And you're welcome!
These are some attitude goals for me. It's so easy to take things personally. Being able to take things constructively even when they might be personal is a great skill.
As every patch nowadays means that yet another symbol gets his gpl-only tag, no I don't report bugs...
Thanks for your work, Greg!
Thank You very much for the hard work you do Greg, You're awesome :D
Thank you for your hard work Greg, it is very much appreciated.
Merry Christmas/Isaac Newton's Birthday!
Merry Christmas/Isaac Newton's Birthday!
You should a small vacation sometime ;)
Bugs can always be fixed, mental health can't.
Thanks for all the awesome work Greg!
Bugs can always be fixed, mental health can't.
Thanks for all the awesome work Greg!
Sorry if my post sounds like a jab, it wasn't meant to be, thanks for your work and Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas, Greg!
Merry Christmas, Greg!
Thanks for all the hard work!
Thanks for all the hard work!
And the fstrim issue: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2012.1/01288.html
Which triggered an immediate 5.10.1 release: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2012.1/07005.html
Which triggered an immediate 5.10.1 release: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2012.1/07005.html
5.10 is a Long Term Support release that is going to get used by many distros for a long time. Maintainers might have tried (unsurprisingly) to get some interesting features merged.
On the bright side updating to 5.10 fixed a regression of a 5.4 to 5.8 kernel upgrade to me. The fix might have been in 5.9 but I only got the idea of upgrading after the 5.10 release.
Anyways, Linux needs some more CI so that such bugs can be found during the RC phase.
Anyways, Linux needs some more CI so that such bugs can be found during the RC phase.
Where in the current CI that we have today is lacking that needs to be improved? We always want more testing and testers, what is preventing everyone from helping with this?
I'll bite: How can I help?
I'm a software engineer who's not involved in Linux Kernel Dev... but I've got a stack of old laptops that I'd be happy to set up to run automated CI if that'd be helpful.
Is there a webpage or doc somewhere I can look at?
(I'm not trying to snark - the fact that you're you and you're here asking for help is making me want to dip my toe in).
I'm a software engineer who's not involved in Linux Kernel Dev... but I've got a stack of old laptops that I'd be happy to set up to run automated CI if that'd be helpful.
Is there a webpage or doc somewhere I can look at?
(I'm not trying to snark - the fact that you're you and you're here asking for help is making me want to dip my toe in).
Simplest thing to do, just run Linus's latest releases (the -rc releases), or from his git tree, on your machine and report any problem.
Second-simplest thing to do is to run the linux-next branch/tree on your machines and report any build warnings and runtime issues you find. That's what will be the "next" kernel releases and is where all of the developer/maintainer trees are merged together before they are sent to Linus.
Both of those should be very easy to do, and any problems found there should be easy to fix and resolve before they get to a "real" release.
Second-simplest thing to do is to run the linux-next branch/tree on your machines and report any build warnings and runtime issues you find. That's what will be the "next" kernel releases and is where all of the developer/maintainer trees are merged together before they are sent to Linus.
Both of those should be very easy to do, and any problems found there should be easy to fix and resolve before they get to a "real" release.
I haven't been following kernel dev for years; what does the CI setup look like? Did the Phoronix Test Suite ever find its way into widespread use?
Back when I was building kernels for embedded hardware (Sheevaplug) in the 2.6.33 timeframe, I found a USB audio regression between 2.6.33.7 and later versions. If there were a semi-turnkey way to set up a testbench that could automatically reboot hardware in every new kernel, run through some basic tests, and report any deviation, I probably would have been more likely to do so. At the time I was working solo trying to release a polished consumer product (sadly though the product was released the business didn't work out) and didn't have time to dig into and report bugs.
Back when I was building kernels for embedded hardware (Sheevaplug) in the 2.6.33 timeframe, I found a USB audio regression between 2.6.33.7 and later versions. If there were a semi-turnkey way to set up a testbench that could automatically reboot hardware in every new kernel, run through some basic tests, and report any deviation, I probably would have been more likely to do so. At the time I was working solo trying to release a polished consumer product (sadly though the product was released the business didn't work out) and didn't have time to dig into and report bugs.
We have so many different CI systems running on the kernel on a hourly basis.
We have the 0-day bot from Intel that runs so many things on all developer trees. We have kernelci running on many many different hardware platforms, and we have Linaro test systems also running on many different branches and hardware platforms.
If you want to tie your own hardware into the system, kernelci is the best place to start, I recommend looking into that.
thanks!
We have the 0-day bot from Intel that runs so many things on all developer trees. We have kernelci running on many many different hardware platforms, and we have Linaro test systems also running on many different branches and hardware platforms.
If you want to tie your own hardware into the system, kernelci is the best place to start, I recommend looking into that.
thanks!
How is the kernel tested ? There weren’t any tests covering any of this ?
> How is the kernel tested ? There weren’t any tests covering any of this ?
Despite appearances, "the kernel" is not a single monolithic thing. There is a about a 100 kloc core (but I haven't looked up that number in years). The rest, hardware drivers, network protocols, file systems, crypto, raid ... bolt on as modules.
Those modules are maintained separate teams. They are as related to the kernel as the phone dialler app is related to Android. The quality of each module is the responsibility of that team, not "the kernel" team. And that applies to testing the module as well.
In a sense, "the kernel" team is more like debian or redhat than developers. What they have done is develop a framework that lets them take bits created and maintained by a cast of thousands, and bolt it together into what appears to be a single coherent thing from the outside. So the answer to "how is the kernel tested" is "it's complex, and not centrally planned".
The other answer is what you are seeing is in fact part of the testing process. Most people use kernels packaged by their distribution. kernel.org releases are more like Microsoft's pre-releases of Windows. Most Debian users for example won't see it until it gets to Debian testing. To get there it must pass through Debian experimental (which is where 5.10 sits now) then sit in Debian unstable without bug reports for a while. Those release names should give you a hint about the anticipated stability of the kernel version. I personally won't use it until it takes another step, which is from Debian testing to Debian backports (which is when it because available to Debian stable users who are willing to risk compatibility issues).
This means that for for most users, 5.10 it's done yet as it has barely begun it's testing regime.
Despite appearances, "the kernel" is not a single monolithic thing. There is a about a 100 kloc core (but I haven't looked up that number in years). The rest, hardware drivers, network protocols, file systems, crypto, raid ... bolt on as modules.
Those modules are maintained separate teams. They are as related to the kernel as the phone dialler app is related to Android. The quality of each module is the responsibility of that team, not "the kernel" team. And that applies to testing the module as well.
In a sense, "the kernel" team is more like debian or redhat than developers. What they have done is develop a framework that lets them take bits created and maintained by a cast of thousands, and bolt it together into what appears to be a single coherent thing from the outside. So the answer to "how is the kernel tested" is "it's complex, and not centrally planned".
The other answer is what you are seeing is in fact part of the testing process. Most people use kernels packaged by their distribution. kernel.org releases are more like Microsoft's pre-releases of Windows. Most Debian users for example won't see it until it gets to Debian testing. To get there it must pass through Debian experimental (which is where 5.10 sits now) then sit in Debian unstable without bug reports for a while. Those release names should give you a hint about the anticipated stability of the kernel version. I personally won't use it until it takes another step, which is from Debian testing to Debian backports (which is when it because available to Debian stable users who are willing to risk compatibility issues).
This means that for for most users, 5.10 it's done yet as it has barely begun it's testing regime.
I work with TBs of genomics data and I am at this point pretty convinced that some of that data changes on-disk. Every now and then. It's very weird. Recently I heard an interview (on one of the Jupiter broadcasting shows) about how btrfs is exposing errors of underlying hardware using their checksumming features, I had a bit of an Aha! moment. The files in question (BAM files) have a sort of checksumming built in (called cigar strings) and I am getting more and more convinced that the discrepancies I run into are actually bit flips on the hardware. Anybody else have any experience with this? BTRFS would be a good tool to prevent such bitrot, imo...
Depending on how you store this data (the number of physical disks involved) you may also want to explore ZFS. ZFS and BTRFS have pretty comparable features, but given how battle-hardened ZFS is, and its ever-increasing integration into the Linux ecosystem, I'm seeing less and less reason to prefer BTRFS.
Both do checksumming and regular scrubbing to help detect bitrot, but both need sufficient redundancy configured to actually be able to repair the corrupted data when it is detected.
Both do checksumming and regular scrubbing to help detect bitrot, but both need sufficient redundancy configured to actually be able to repair the corrupted data when it is detected.
There is exactly one distro that comes with ZFS, so it's a bit exaggeration to say it's well integrated with Linux, considering how much effort is applied by kernel developers to make it even harder to use ZFS. And this one distro that includes ZFS is just one lawsuit away from removing it again.
It's easy to use zfs on Debian and derivatives
apt install dkms spl-dkms
apt install zfs-dkms zfsutils-linuxI am testing OpenZFS with Ubuntu 20.04 LTS right now. OpenZFS seems pretty solid so far (I tried various scenarios of failure/corruption) and Ubuntu seems to actually care about ZFS support and its integration in Linux.
Ubuntu, Proxmox, Manjaro all have root on ZFS via the installer and there are others that I don't remember offhand.
That, this, is the most diplomatical way of saying 'just use ZFS' we've seen in a decayed. Mod parent up. BTRFS will never be a suck-zess. Use ext4 or ZFS for life.
Bit-flips are a lot more common than people think as are read errors on drives. Surprisingly, usually a bit flipping here or there doesn't cause any real problems so they tend to go unnoticed. If your working with TBs of data using a checksumming filesystem like ZFS of BTRFS would certainly be recommended, but you should ALSO make sure your using ECC RAM. Checking the integrity of the data as it comes off the disk doesn't do you much good if a bit then flips while it's in memory.
To emphasise, using ECC RAM is another step that can be used to increase the integrity of your data.
It’s like security - it’s done in layers.
Using a checksumming filesystem without ECC RAM is an improvement on not using a checksumming filesystem at all. Do not consider ECC RAM to be a requirement for ZFS / BTRFS.
It does add another layer of improvement though, so if you can, you should!
And even if you can’t, and even if you can’t provide the redundancy to enable bitflips to be resolved, still use a checksumming filesystem if you can!
It’s like security - it’s done in layers.
Using a checksumming filesystem without ECC RAM is an improvement on not using a checksumming filesystem at all. Do not consider ECC RAM to be a requirement for ZFS / BTRFS.
It does add another layer of improvement though, so if you can, you should!
And even if you can’t, and even if you can’t provide the redundancy to enable bitflips to be resolved, still use a checksumming filesystem if you can!
DDR5 mainstreaming ECC RAM as the default is super exciting!
Err, no.
The CIGAR is not a checksum, even though you'll notice if it's corrupted, because it won't match the read length anymore. However, BAM is zlib-compressed (even if you asked samtools not to compress it). Each block therefore contains an actual checksum, and corruption will show up during decompression. Therefore, if you can decompress BAM, but the CIGAR doesn't make sense, you've got a software problem, not a hardware problem.
From my experience in beerinformatics, you got some software that... uhhh... interprets the BAM specification differently than you do. It's depressingly common.
The CIGAR is not a checksum, even though you'll notice if it's corrupted, because it won't match the read length anymore. However, BAM is zlib-compressed (even if you asked samtools not to compress it). Each block therefore contains an actual checksum, and corruption will show up during decompression. Therefore, if you can decompress BAM, but the CIGAR doesn't make sense, you've got a software problem, not a hardware problem.
From my experience in beerinformatics, you got some software that... uhhh... interprets the BAM specification differently than you do. It's depressingly common.
Hmm, thank you for the information. But I'm by now pretty sure that I saw the checking process finish successfully at one moment, and not at others. It's not reproducible and all those algorithms should be deterministic, right? If not for bit flipping I really can't explain this.
It really can't be bit flipping on disk. First off, the checksum would catch it. Second, the file is compressed, so flipping a bit turns it into complete garbage. Third, BAM uses a length-prefixed coding in several places. A flipped bit in any length field would mess up the decoding.
Those bits could still flip in memory, which isn't BTRFS's fault. That's still unlikely, because you'd typically get segfaults, not silent corruption. So, it's probably bad software.
> those algorithms should be deterministic, right?
Combine bad code (samtools) with multithreading, and you will quickly become convinced that your computer is possessed by an evil spirit.
Those bits could still flip in memory, which isn't BTRFS's fault. That's still unlikely, because you'd typically get segfaults, not silent corruption. So, it's probably bad software.
> those algorithms should be deterministic, right?
Combine bad code (samtools) with multithreading, and you will quickly become convinced that your computer is possessed by an evil spirit.
:D
Currently not using btrfs by the way. But you are positive that BAM files should be self consistent? And when would you catch a bitflip then? What would it look like in a compressed file lake BAM? A much larger effect than just a cigar length mismatch supposedly?
Currently not using btrfs by the way. But you are positive that BAM files should be self consistent? And when would you catch a bitflip then? What would it look like in a compressed file lake BAM? A much larger effect than just a cigar length mismatch supposedly?
Oy vey, veering off topic, but whatever...
BAM is a sequence of zlib-compressed blocks. Each of them has a checksum, and any corruption gets past it with probability 2^-32. Any sane software will give you an error. When in doubt, just decompress the stupid file using gunzip or zcat, those will verify the checksum. Don't guess, check.
But if you insist on using software that just ignores the checksum (I think, not even samtools, which segfaults(!) on misspelled file names(!) is that awful), all bets are off. Decompressing a corrupted file yields nonsense that doesn't even have the same length as the original data. BAM would also quickly get out of sync, and subsequent records would contain complete nonsense. You'd know if you saw that.
However...
> you are positive that BAM files should be self consistent?
That is a loaded question. In addition to being syntactically correct, BAM files should maintain a few variants that are hard to check. They rearely do. BWA(!) produces inconsistent BAM files, and I've seen many, many scripts in the wild that produce complete bullshit that only happens to work in a very specific setting. Like I said, you're probably using some awful software.
BAM is a sequence of zlib-compressed blocks. Each of them has a checksum, and any corruption gets past it with probability 2^-32. Any sane software will give you an error. When in doubt, just decompress the stupid file using gunzip or zcat, those will verify the checksum. Don't guess, check.
But if you insist on using software that just ignores the checksum (I think, not even samtools, which segfaults(!) on misspelled file names(!) is that awful), all bets are off. Decompressing a corrupted file yields nonsense that doesn't even have the same length as the original data. BAM would also quickly get out of sync, and subsequent records would contain complete nonsense. You'd know if you saw that.
However...
> you are positive that BAM files should be self consistent?
That is a loaded question. In addition to being syntactically correct, BAM files should maintain a few variants that are hard to check. They rearely do. BWA(!) produces inconsistent BAM files, and I've seen many, many scripts in the wild that produce complete bullshit that only happens to work in a very specific setting. Like I said, you're probably using some awful software.
Thank you very much, this is very helpful!
I'd personally go with ZFS. There are already people in your field using ZFS to ensure the integrity of their data (based on past conversations here on HN).
I've used both ZFS and Btrfs extensively. Only Btrfs has lost data and behaved badly. I would highly recommend evaluating ZFS.
I've used both ZFS and Btrfs extensively. Only Btrfs has lost data and behaved badly. I would highly recommend evaluating ZFS.
btrfs has eaten 100% of the data I have stored on it. 0/10 would not suggest.
ZFS has similar features and has eaten 0% of the data I have stored on it. would suggest.
ZFS has similar features and has eaten 0% of the data I have stored on it. would suggest.
n=1 is n=None ;)
I once ran into a RAID card that would write bad data if you put it on a 90-degree PCI connector (needed for a 2U server box). No errors appeared anywhere until you encountered corrupted files.
Hardware RAID falls into the "never again" category for me.
Though in this case it sounds like any PCI card that couldn't handle the degraded signals from the angle connector would have exhibited data corruption.
I have problems with USB packets getting corrupted on their way to my audio interface. Signal integrity is really underappreciated in the PC peripheral world.
I have problems with USB packets getting corrupted on their way to my audio interface. Signal integrity is really underappreciated in the PC peripheral world.
I think /dev/md raid would have made that failure more noticeable, more quickly. Hardware RAID cards don’t always pass on disk errors to the kernel.
As other folks are suggesting, ECC may be suitable for you (alongside a protective FS). But if you want to purchase your next workstation with ECC support, be very careful: some motherboards manufacturers just say 'ECC' in their specs but that doesn't mean that they actually use ECC capabilities, that only means that you can plug ECC-RAM into it. Make sure the specs explicitly say something like "Corrects single-bit errors and detects double-bit errors" (you need both, some MBs support only single-bit correction).
I think ECC RAM and a good FS are complementary tools to achieve storage high reliability. One without another may not be that useful.
I think ECC RAM and a good FS are complementary tools to achieve storage high reliability. One without another may not be that useful.
btrfs definitely helps catching errors, even without ECC or redundancy. An example: On a server with multiple VMs on a big consumer NVMe that was starting to get unreliable Windows reported nothing other than bluescreening occasionally (sfc and chkdsk showed no errors). Linux on the other hand reported errors during a bi-weekly scrub and in the kernel logs.
The SMART thresholds on the drive were strange too. A small but non-zero amount of read errors was not considered a health problem yet. I only realized that after the scrub reported problems.
The SMART thresholds on the drive were strange too. A small but non-zero amount of read errors was not considered a health problem yet. I only realized that after the scrub reported problems.
>On a server with multiple VMs on a big consumer NVMe
How did you avoid the crippling performance penalty with storing VM disks on btrfs? The usual workaround suggested to btrfs users is to disable copy-on-write for VM images, but doing so also turns off checksumming thus disabling the very features that make btrfs, well, btrfs.
How did you avoid the crippling performance penalty with storing VM disks on btrfs? The usual workaround suggested to btrfs users is to disable copy-on-write for VM images, but doing so also turns off checksumming thus disabling the very features that make btrfs, well, btrfs.
The VMs were running on raw partitions. The btrfs reporting errors was inside a linux VM.
I have a lot of video files (e.g. old camera tapes) stored on spinning hard drives. Bit flips are distressingly common, and increase with age.
My next storage setup will definitely use a checksumming filesystem.
My next storage setup will definitely use a checksumming filesystem.
What software do you use ? We use bwa/samtools/varscan/bcftools and we've reprocessed old data right from the fastq files a few times. So far we haven't gotten different results.
I encounter an error that I can't currently find exactly but it happens when running mismatch_profile from the RSeQC package. It reports a mismatch in the length of the cigar notation and the actual read inside a BAM file. Lately I have become 99% sure that this sometimes happens in files that did not show this error before (we reprocess a lot of data from time to time). I suspect it is bit flips because I think bit flips can easily go unnoticed, but not in this case, because the cigar notation is a shorter description of the actual read and they should thus match. The mismatch signals a change in the file that occurred without us touching it.
Or ZFS, I wouldn't store that kind of data on other filesystem's without that kind of protection...
Assuming it can be fixed in a 5.10.x patch release, it's a rather minor story - a bug that is quickly found after release and fixed, hopefully.
It will be investigated: https://marc.info/?l=linux-btrfs&m=160869337604422&w=2
It will be investigated: https://marc.info/?l=linux-btrfs&m=160869337604422&w=2
The problem with btrfs is that it has quirks like that (and worse, much worse) all the time.
I had been using btrfs for 5+ years without any issues.
Then a minor issue did happen, some files got missing after a system crash. That's not a problem in itself, that happens.
But then I discovered that the tooling of btrfs is awful to use. Tools to repair, restore, check, scrub, ... I think I got it to finally print some filenames of missing files after a huge amount of hoops. Just see how complex btrfs restore is: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Restore. Ideally those tools would know how btrfs works internally including all indirections and be able to translate that into recovering files to the user, not have, for example, a user manually puzzle together objectid numbers from a huge list.
But anyway, that made me simply format everything back to ext4 and go with that again for now.
So, I was a happy btrfs user until I discovered how bad its tooling is. No issues with bugs or anything though.
I really want btrfs to become better given that it's present in the kernel and has checksums, cow, .... I hope it'll keep improving!
Then a minor issue did happen, some files got missing after a system crash. That's not a problem in itself, that happens.
But then I discovered that the tooling of btrfs is awful to use. Tools to repair, restore, check, scrub, ... I think I got it to finally print some filenames of missing files after a huge amount of hoops. Just see how complex btrfs restore is: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Restore. Ideally those tools would know how btrfs works internally including all indirections and be able to translate that into recovering files to the user, not have, for example, a user manually puzzle together objectid numbers from a huge list.
But anyway, that made me simply format everything back to ext4 and go with that again for now.
So, I was a happy btrfs user until I discovered how bad its tooling is. No issues with bugs or anything though.
I really want btrfs to become better given that it's present in the kernel and has checksums, cow, .... I hope it'll keep improving!
I've also been using btrfs for 5+ years. When the USB stick I keep my home server's file system on didn't boot after a power outage I stuck it into my PC, performed the simplest repair on it (don't remember which) and everything was great again.
The most annoying issue I've run into (and I really hate it) was being low on space and it being really hard to free some since it's very intransparent what's actually using it - but with btdu I mostly got that under control as well.
That said when repairing the boot drive I did experience some confusion due to there being multiple different ways - the documentation could be better on that front. For simple things at least (subvolume management, snapshot creation, checking free space) I've been quite happy with the btrfs command line tool.
The most annoying issue I've run into (and I really hate it) was being low on space and it being really hard to free some since it's very intransparent what's actually using it - but with btdu I mostly got that under control as well.
That said when repairing the boot drive I did experience some confusion due to there being multiple different ways - the documentation could be better on that front. For simple things at least (subvolume management, snapshot creation, checking free space) I've been quite happy with the btrfs command line tool.
I'd prefer performance regressions any day compared to losing my data because BTRFS had a bad day like was common in the past. I also no longer use BTRFS, once was enough. If a performance regression leads to ZFS-like stability, bring it on!
In 10 years of running a production service, the only two long duration outages were due to btrfs quotas (unwanted in the first place) slowing things to a crawl.
I hope bcachefs will catch up and will become a better alternative.
Why does btrfs have those issues compared to other filesystems? I'd love to use btrfs too. Note that I deeply respect people who can write such complicated code, which I couldn't.
Would Rust solve the non-speed issues? Rust-in-kernel discussion from August: https://lwn.net/Articles/829858/
Would Rust solve the non-speed issues? Rust-in-kernel discussion from August: https://lwn.net/Articles/829858/
I sincerely hope you are joking but I realize this mindset is quite common these days, so let me reiterate: Rust does not magically solve problems for you. Btrfs has a lot of issues and some of them may well be of the not possible in Rust sort, but I'm quite sure most of them are not and there is nothing Rust can fix about them. Rewriting a 13 years old and very complex thing in another language is a massive effort and a big opportunity for introducing some more, possibly worse bugs along the way.
EDIT: also see panpanna's comment
EDIT: also see panpanna's comment
It is like a repeating story, every time someone sells the magically solution to all problems and apply a name on it people blindly believe it.
This are tools. A screwdriver is not the right tool, when you need a power drill. And vice versa. Yes, sometimes you can use both and stick with your accustomed tool.
Anyway. C and C++ and the tool chain are constantly improving like others.The moern memory sanitizers in GCC and LLVM are awesome.
This are tools. A screwdriver is not the right tool, when you need a power drill. And vice versa. Yes, sometimes you can use both and stick with your accustomed tool.
Anyway. C and C++ and the tool chain are constantly improving like others.The moern memory sanitizers in GCC and LLVM are awesome.
Any rewrite must be carefully evaluated, true. And it may not be advisable. I'm trying to understand the issues.
Are they not solvable because the kernel does not give enough guarantees as it gives to userspace, because the c-interfaces of the kernel have to be wrapped in unsafe or because of other reasons (architecture, data model, kernel constraints, ...)?
Are they not solvable because the kernel does not give enough guarantees as it gives to userspace, because the c-interfaces of the kernel have to be wrapped in unsafe or because of other reasons (architecture, data model, kernel constraints, ...)?
I think the issue is that you haven’t understood the issue, and just proposed using Rust. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of Rust, but seeing people blindly suggest it as a panacea gets frustrating for people. The reality is that when people talk about Rust being fact, it’s because a decently optimised Rust program might be comparable to an equivalent C program. C is generally not the problem when it comes to performance issues in the kernel, which means rewriting that thing in Rust wouldn’t magically make it faster.
The issue will probably be some sort of pathological case in an algorithm being used, or perhaps from a poorly chosen algorithm. The point being, it’s not clear yet, and to solve that requires understanding the problem, not effecting a needless rewrite in a new language.
The issue will probably be some sort of pathological case in an algorithm being used, or perhaps from a poorly chosen algorithm. The point being, it’s not clear yet, and to solve that requires understanding the problem, not effecting a needless rewrite in a new language.
> C is generally not the problem when it comes to performance issues in the kernel, which means rewriting that thing in Rust wouldn’t magically make it faster.
Agreed.
> The point being, it’s not clear yet, and to solve that requires understanding the problem, not effecting a needless rewrite in a new language.
Which is why the first question is why btrfs has issues others do not have. Some mention its CoW architecture, system design, too many features and not limiting storage to 90% and so increasing complexity. Others mention usual kernel issues.
Others mention that they had no issues to begin with and that its mixed reputation is unwarranted. I'm not clear who is right, but they are data points.
Thank you for your input in cautioning of rewrites to avoid needless work, I appreciate it.
Agreed.
> The point being, it’s not clear yet, and to solve that requires understanding the problem, not effecting a needless rewrite in a new language.
Which is why the first question is why btrfs has issues others do not have. Some mention its CoW architecture, system design, too many features and not limiting storage to 90% and so increasing complexity. Others mention usual kernel issues.
Others mention that they had no issues to begin with and that its mixed reputation is unwarranted. I'm not clear who is right, but they are data points.
Thank you for your input in cautioning of rewrites to avoid needless work, I appreciate it.
Btrfs is really only comparable to ZFS, which is also CoW, feature rich and written in C, but has been considered stable for a great many years.
> Why does btrfs have those issues compared to other filesystems?
As someone that has built infrastructure on BtrFS for years, the scary stories are mostly just hot air and the stability of other filesystems is really not significantly better.
Bugs like this happen, this is why Linus releases many release-candiates every kernel, this one got through as 10 was a rather massive kernel and there were several regressions. Including one that caused a new release just hours after the supposedly final one. Distros wait a bit longer before shipping an updated kernel and none of these hit actual users.
As far as I know there is no reason to abstain from using Btrfs. When Fedora talked about not using it, they had as reason that they had no in-house expertise.
As someone that has built infrastructure on BtrFS for years, the scary stories are mostly just hot air and the stability of other filesystems is really not significantly better.
Bugs like this happen, this is why Linus releases many release-candiates every kernel, this one got through as 10 was a rather massive kernel and there were several regressions. Including one that caused a new release just hours after the supposedly final one. Distros wait a bit longer before shipping an updated kernel and none of these hit actual users.
As far as I know there is no reason to abstain from using Btrfs. When Fedora talked about not using it, they had as reason that they had no in-house expertise.
> As someone that has built infrastructure on BtrFS for years, the scary stories are mostly just hot air and the stability of other filesystems is really not significantly better.
I've lost 2 root filesystems to btrfs, on a laptop with only 1 drive (read: not even using RAID). Have you considered that you're just lucky?
I've lost 2 root filesystems to btrfs, on a laptop with only 1 drive (read: not even using RAID). Have you considered that you're just lucky?
In my experience, the stories are real. Our entire company was offline for a day when our central storage server quit accepting writes despite having over 50% free space. That's when I learned the hard way about the data/metadata split (something I was aware of but wasn't exactly top of mind) and BTRFS balance. You can certainly say it was my fault for not reading ALL the documentation before using BTRFS, and I'd find it hard to disagree, but any other filesystem wouldn't have had this problem.
I can't speak to if there are other foot-guns waiting around or how common problems like this are because we migrated back to FreeBSD and ZFS shortly after that experience. I do know they have since updated BTRFS to make that scenario less likely (but still not impossible).
I can't speak to if there are other foot-guns waiting around or how common problems like this are because we migrated back to FreeBSD and ZFS shortly after that experience. I do know they have since updated BTRFS to make that scenario less likely (but still not impossible).
This is exactly my experience as well.
Btrfs is the C++ of file systems: it’s powerful and works for a great many people. But the tooling is intimidating to new comers and unless you know exactly what you’re doing, it’s a ticking time bomb due to the plethora of foot guns and hidden traps.
This is why some people claim to have success with it while a great many other people, rightfully, claim it’s not yet ready for prime time.
ZFS, on the other hand, has not only protected me against failing hardware but it also has sane defaults and easy to use tooling thus protecting me against my own stupidity.
Btrfs is the C++ of file systems: it’s powerful and works for a great many people. But the tooling is intimidating to new comers and unless you know exactly what you’re doing, it’s a ticking time bomb due to the plethora of foot guns and hidden traps.
This is why some people claim to have success with it while a great many other people, rightfully, claim it’s not yet ready for prime time.
ZFS, on the other hand, has not only protected me against failing hardware but it also has sane defaults and easy to use tooling thus protecting me against my own stupidity.
I don't think it's your fault in any way.
We expect filesystems to work robustly. We do not expect them to fail after an arbitrary time interval merely by being used. Even terrible filesystems like FAT don't do that. They might get fragmented and slow, but they don't just stop. I find it incredible that this is often minimised by people; it's a complete show-stopper irrespective of the other problems Btrfs has.
I made exactly the same migration you did. ZFS has been solid, and it does exactly what it says on the tin.
We expect filesystems to work robustly. We do not expect them to fail after an arbitrary time interval merely by being used. Even terrible filesystems like FAT don't do that. They might get fragmented and slow, but they don't just stop. I find it incredible that this is often minimised by people; it's a complete show-stopper irrespective of the other problems Btrfs has.
I made exactly the same migration you did. ZFS has been solid, and it does exactly what it says on the tin.
Does Fedora now have in-house expertise now that they've decided to make Btrfs default?
Some Facebook btrfs devs agreed to help out. FB runs Fedora/CentOS + btrfs root on most of its systems.
Thank you for posting your experience!
My guess is this (compared to ZFS): With a CoW-file system like btrfs you have to problem that you need new file system space to delete something. This is problematic if the file system is full and you want to be able to write to it again by deleting something. ZFS solved this by just saying one can only fill a file system to 90% usage. At some point they even decreased this (during upgrade) and I had the issue that I couldn't write to the ZFS file system because this was lowered.
Btrfs tries to fully use the space and gets all the associated complexities. Additionally, because data/metadata ratio is not fixed one can get into situations where the file system is full and there is no more metadata space. For every action it needs to carefully check if there is enough space to actually perform the action even if the file system is nearly full. Improvements in this area caused this regression.
And no Rust wouldn't help. How often do you get a kernel Oops, dead lock or memory leak? Rust would help with those.
Btrfs tries to fully use the space and gets all the associated complexities. Additionally, because data/metadata ratio is not fixed one can get into situations where the file system is full and there is no more metadata space. For every action it needs to carefully check if there is enough space to actually perform the action even if the file system is nearly full. Improvements in this area caused this regression.
And no Rust wouldn't help. How often do you get a kernel Oops, dead lock or memory leak? Rust would help with those.
Interesting decision they made, I wonder whether they would decide differently now after seeing all the complexity.
So Rust does not decrease the complexity, but only removes certain kinds of errors which the compiler can detect. Neither logic errors nor speed regressions.
Thank you for your input.
So Rust does not decrease the complexity, but only removes certain kinds of errors which the compiler can detect. Neither logic errors nor speed regressions.
Thank you for your input.
> I wonder whether they would decide differently now after seeing all the complexity.
Decide what? Cow is a fundamental part of how btrfs works, and Rust didn't exist for the majority of Linux's life. (Although if you're into that, look at Redox)
Decide what? Cow is a fundamental part of how btrfs works, and Rust didn't exist for the majority of Linux's life. (Although if you're into that, look at Redox)
Sorry I was unclear :) Maybe they would limit storage to 90% now, seeing that it increases complexity. Maybe I misunderstood the prior point though.
Thanks fr mentioning Redox!
Thanks fr mentioning Redox!
Please understand that the rust memory and thread security mainly applies to "normal" applications.
In kernel, you can run a privileged cache or mmu instruction or a write to some magical memory position and all the sudden the "normal" rules don't apply anymore.
(But I think there are other parts of rust that are nice to have in kernel or any complex software).
In kernel, you can run a privileged cache or mmu instruction or a write to some magical memory position and all the sudden the "normal" rules don't apply anymore.
(But I think there are other parts of rust that are nice to have in kernel or any complex software).
I thought the Rust compiler solves issues that you wouldn't immediately see with pure C, which is why I had the idea.
I didn't know this requires certain features which are not available inside the kernel. I only knew all existing interfaces may be unsafe because they are in C though. Rust does not seem as useful then.
Thank you for your input.
I didn't know this requires certain features which are not available inside the kernel. I only knew all existing interfaces may be unsafe because they are in C though. Rust does not seem as useful then.
Thank you for your input.
It's not so much that rust the language requires them as much as it is that other non-rust parts can quite easily stomp all over the guarantees of rust without there ever being a way of knowing it happened. So rust alone won't solve many problems, but it would let you say "this code can't do these things itself", which is still a useful distinction. It also doesn't allow you to deal with misbehaving hardware that changes memory underneath you in ways it said won't happen. Hardware sucks.
Do other parts stomp often? :) But true that can happen. Especially on non-ECC systems.
I didn't think about the hardware issues, hmm. I can't see how to do that, when the compiler guarantees get invalidated by hardware. Checks are also needed like in C? (assuming there are checks which do not get compiled out..)
I didn't think about the hardware issues, hmm. I can't see how to do that, when the compiler guarantees get invalidated by hardware. Checks are also needed like in C? (assuming there are checks which do not get compiled out..)
When the hardware can't make the guarantees, then software really can't do anything about it. There's really not any checks you can do, but modern hardware is getting the capabilities to try to prevent those kinds of issues with the IOMMU units, but operating system support is still hit or miss for most hardware and it won't prevent everything (just devices stomping on each-other with DMA). That's basically how the thunderbolt attacks have worked and the solutions to them.
> Why does btrfs have those issues compared to other filesystems?
Mostly because it has lots of features and as a consequence, is pretty large and complex. Closer to ZFS than ext2.
Btrfs suffers from a initial bad rep, which is difficult to overcome.
Mostly because it has lots of features and as a consequence, is pretty large and complex. Closer to ZFS than ext2.
Btrfs suffers from a initial bad rep, which is difficult to overcome.
ZFS itself seems very stable and not to suffer from these issues though.
Anecdotally, I've encountered issues with both ZFS and BTRFS at about the same rate. A public example of an apparent ZFS performance issue is https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/issues/9375 Both are much more quirky than simpler filesystems like ext4. Data integrity verification from checksumming makes it worth it though.
The ZFS vs. BTRFS choice, I think, depends more on whether you need specific features like offline deduplication or L2ARC / SLOG cache devices. And which one you're more familiar with (can troubleshoot better).
The ZFS vs. BTRFS choice, I think, depends more on whether you need specific features like offline deduplication or L2ARC / SLOG cache devices. And which one you're more familiar with (can troubleshoot better).
ZFS is also extremely well designed at a system level... which is not the impression I get from BtrFS. (Disclaimer: I have not bothered looking at BtrFS for years because ZFS has handled everything I've thrown at it very admirably. Including complicated setups with RAID-Z, etc.)
Granted, there are some limitations to the design, but it doesn't affect my use cases, so whatever...
Granted, there are some limitations to the design, but it doesn't affect my use cases, so whatever...
Good theory, thank you.
> Why does btrfs have those issues compared to other filesystems?
Why? There are several reasons, but if you go right back to the beginning, there's a single reason which caused all the other problems: they started coding before they had finished the design.
All of the other problems are fallout from that. Changing the design and the implementation to fix bugs after the initial implementation was done. Introducing more bugs in the process. And leaving unresolved design flaws after freezing the on-disc format.
When you look at ZFS as a comparison, the design was done and validated before they started implementing it. Not unsurprisingly, it worked as designed once the implementation was done. Up-front design work is necessary for engineering complex systems, it really goes without saying.
This isn't even unique to Btrfs, but filesystems are one thing you can't hack around with without coming to grief; you have to get it right first time when their sole purpose is to store and retrieve data reliably. Many open source projects are ridden with problems because their developers were more interested in bashing out code than stopping and thinking beforehand. Same with a lot of closed source projects as well for that matter.
In the case of Btrfs, which was aiming from the start to be a "better ZFS", they didn't even take the time to fully understand some of the design choices and compromises made in ZFS, because they ended up making choices which had terrible implications. Examples: using B-trees rather than Merkle hashes; this is at the root of many of its performance problems. Not having immutable snapshots; again has performance implications as well as safety implications, and is rooted in not having pool transaction numbers and deadlists. Not separating datasets/subvols from the directory hierarchy; presents logistical and administration challenges, while ZFS datasets can freely inherit metadata from parents and the mount locations are a separate property. ZFS isn't perfect of course, there are improvements and new features that could be made, but what is there is well designed, well thought out, and is a joy to work with.
Why? There are several reasons, but if you go right back to the beginning, there's a single reason which caused all the other problems: they started coding before they had finished the design.
All of the other problems are fallout from that. Changing the design and the implementation to fix bugs after the initial implementation was done. Introducing more bugs in the process. And leaving unresolved design flaws after freezing the on-disc format.
When you look at ZFS as a comparison, the design was done and validated before they started implementing it. Not unsurprisingly, it worked as designed once the implementation was done. Up-front design work is necessary for engineering complex systems, it really goes without saying.
This isn't even unique to Btrfs, but filesystems are one thing you can't hack around with without coming to grief; you have to get it right first time when their sole purpose is to store and retrieve data reliably. Many open source projects are ridden with problems because their developers were more interested in bashing out code than stopping and thinking beforehand. Same with a lot of closed source projects as well for that matter.
In the case of Btrfs, which was aiming from the start to be a "better ZFS", they didn't even take the time to fully understand some of the design choices and compromises made in ZFS, because they ended up making choices which had terrible implications. Examples: using B-trees rather than Merkle hashes; this is at the root of many of its performance problems. Not having immutable snapshots; again has performance implications as well as safety implications, and is rooted in not having pool transaction numbers and deadlists. Not separating datasets/subvols from the directory hierarchy; presents logistical and administration challenges, while ZFS datasets can freely inherit metadata from parents and the mount locations are a separate property. ZFS isn't perfect of course, there are improvements and new features that could be made, but what is there is well designed, well thought out, and is a joy to work with.
Can you tell how such evaluation on a design is done? Is some kind of formal verification, analysis or rather experimentation to figure out its properties normal?
Thank you for your input!
Thank you for your input!
I wasn't involved so can't personally provide details of how this was done at Sun. Most of my knowledge comes from listening to talks and reading books on ZFS.
For work I'm involved in relating to safety-critical systems, we use the V-model for concepts, requirements, design and implementation, with extensive validation and verification activities at each level. Tools are used to manage all of the requirements, design details and implementation details and link them all together in a manner which aims to require self-consistency at all levels. When done correctly, this means that the person writing the code does not need to be particularly creative at this stage: the structure is completely detailed by the formal design. But it does require significant up-front effort to carefully consider and nail down the design to this level of detail. But it does avoid the need to continually revise and adapt an incomplete or bad design in a never-ending implementation phase.
This approach is definitely not for everyone, and there are many things one can criticise about it. But if you are willing to bear the financial cost and time costs of doing that detailed design work up front, the cost of implementation will be much lower and the product quality will be much greater. There is a lot to be said for not madly mashing keys and churning out code without thinking about the big picture, and Btrfs is a case study in what not to do.
For work I'm involved in relating to safety-critical systems, we use the V-model for concepts, requirements, design and implementation, with extensive validation and verification activities at each level. Tools are used to manage all of the requirements, design details and implementation details and link them all together in a manner which aims to require self-consistency at all levels. When done correctly, this means that the person writing the code does not need to be particularly creative at this stage: the structure is completely detailed by the formal design. But it does require significant up-front effort to carefully consider and nail down the design to this level of detail. But it does avoid the need to continually revise and adapt an incomplete or bad design in a never-ending implementation phase.
This approach is definitely not for everyone, and there are many things one can criticise about it. But if you are willing to bear the financial cost and time costs of doing that detailed design work up front, the cost of implementation will be much lower and the product quality will be much greater. There is a lot to be said for not madly mashing keys and churning out code without thinking about the big picture, and Btrfs is a case study in what not to do.
The V-model is interesting. I'm a student and kinda new to the different development models.
How to decide whether such meticulous design is necessary or not? In hindsight Btrfs may have benefited, but how to decide when to and when not to in the future?
I would also be interested to know what tools are used for this. The ones I looked at seemed quite dated.. :-)
Thank you for answering! This is very interesting to learn about
How to decide whether such meticulous design is necessary or not? In hindsight Btrfs may have benefited, but how to decide when to and when not to in the future?
I would also be interested to know what tools are used for this. The ones I looked at seemed quite dated.. :-)
Thank you for answering! This is very interesting to learn about
This is just my own personal take on things; I'd definitely recommend reading up on the differences between Waterfall, Agile and the V-model (and Spiral model). Note that you'll see it said that the V-model is based upon Waterfall, which is somewhat true, but it's not necessarily incompatible with Agile. You can combine the two and go all the way down and back up the "V" in sprints or "product increments", but you do need the resources to do all the revalidation and reverification at all levels each time, and this can be costly (this is effectively what the Spiral model is).
In terms of deciding if meticulous up-front design is necessary (again my own take), it depends upon the consequences of failure in the requirements, specifications, design and/or implementation. A random webapp doesn't really have much in the way of consequences other than a bit of annoyance and inconvenience. A safety-critical system can physically harm one or multiple people. Examples: car braking systems, insulin pumps, medical diagnostics, medical instruments, elevator safety controls, avionics etc. It also depends upon how feasible it is to upgrade in the field. A webapp can be updated and reloaded trivially. An embedded application in a hardware device is not trivial to upgrade, especially when it's safety-critical and has to be revalidated for the specific hardware revision.
For filesystems the safety aspect will relate to maintaining the integrity of the data you have entrusted to its care. Computer software and operating systems can have all sorts of silly bugs, but filesystem data integrity is one place where safety is sacrosanct. We set a high bar in our expectation for filesystems, not unreasonably, and after suffering from multiple dataloss incidents with Btrfs, it's clear their work did not meet our expectations. We're not even going into the performance problems here, just the data integrity aspects.
I can't say anything about the tools I use in my company. There are specialist proprietary tools available to help with some of the requirements and specifications management. I will say this: the tools themselves aren't really that important, they are just aids for convenience. The regulatory bodies don't care what tools you use. The important part is the process, of having detailed review at every level before proceeding to the next, and the same again when it comes to validation and verification activities.
Often open source projects limit themselves to some level of unit testing and integration testing, which is fine. But the coverage and quality of that testing may leave some room for improvement. It's clear that Btrfs didn't really test the failure and recovery codepaths properly during its development. Where was the individual unit testing and integration test case coverage for each failure scenario? Where the V-model goes above and beyond this is in the testing of the basic requirements and high-level concepts themselves. You've got to check that the fundamental premises the software implementation is based upon are sound and consistent.
In terms of deciding if meticulous up-front design is necessary (again my own take), it depends upon the consequences of failure in the requirements, specifications, design and/or implementation. A random webapp doesn't really have much in the way of consequences other than a bit of annoyance and inconvenience. A safety-critical system can physically harm one or multiple people. Examples: car braking systems, insulin pumps, medical diagnostics, medical instruments, elevator safety controls, avionics etc. It also depends upon how feasible it is to upgrade in the field. A webapp can be updated and reloaded trivially. An embedded application in a hardware device is not trivial to upgrade, especially when it's safety-critical and has to be revalidated for the specific hardware revision.
For filesystems the safety aspect will relate to maintaining the integrity of the data you have entrusted to its care. Computer software and operating systems can have all sorts of silly bugs, but filesystem data integrity is one place where safety is sacrosanct. We set a high bar in our expectation for filesystems, not unreasonably, and after suffering from multiple dataloss incidents with Btrfs, it's clear their work did not meet our expectations. We're not even going into the performance problems here, just the data integrity aspects.
I can't say anything about the tools I use in my company. There are specialist proprietary tools available to help with some of the requirements and specifications management. I will say this: the tools themselves aren't really that important, they are just aids for convenience. The regulatory bodies don't care what tools you use. The important part is the process, of having detailed review at every level before proceeding to the next, and the same again when it comes to validation and verification activities.
Often open source projects limit themselves to some level of unit testing and integration testing, which is fine. But the coverage and quality of that testing may leave some room for improvement. It's clear that Btrfs didn't really test the failure and recovery codepaths properly during its development. Where was the individual unit testing and integration test case coverage for each failure scenario? Where the V-model goes above and beyond this is in the testing of the basic requirements and high-level concepts themselves. You've got to check that the fundamental premises the software implementation is based upon are sound and consistent.
I had multiple corruption on a "server" at my parents, checked the disk and reinstalled from scratch 2 times, then I ran memtest86+ and found out one of the memory stick was faulty. Btrfs allowed me to detect that and be confident that all data recovered from the disks were ok because of the data checksumming. With ext4 I might have never found out.
I wouldn't count on that though. I'd say you were lucky. If the corruption happens before it gets sent to the disk, then you have checksummed and valid but broken data.
Btrfs has added some checks to prevent these issues. It can't catch everything, but some people have apparently hit them so it certainly helps https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Tree-checker
The parent's point was that if the user data (not the tree metadata) was corrupted in-memory before writing to disk, no amount of checksumming will save you because the checksum was calculated over corrupted data.
The ratio of bad to good posts about BTRFS always made me wonder why anyone would roll with it. Don’t put your fs in crazy.
The ratio of bad to good posts has always stunned me too. But for the opposite reason.
The linked post explains that there is a performance regression in a very rare and specific usecase: creating 100k files in a short span of time. And I'm not talking about unpacking boost, that's not enough files.
Additionally, it will be fixed before any distro packages it. (even Arch is still on 5.9.14.)
On the other hand btrfs got rather impressive speedups for fsync https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5....
Why are people making so much noise instead of just reporting the bug upstream when stuff goes wrong with btrfs, and why do we hear so little about the positive impact of new improvements. Almost like the people behave like customers of commercial operating systems. :-)
The linked post explains that there is a performance regression in a very rare and specific usecase: creating 100k files in a short span of time. And I'm not talking about unpacking boost, that's not enough files.
Additionally, it will be fixed before any distro packages it. (even Arch is still on 5.9.14.)
On the other hand btrfs got rather impressive speedups for fsync https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-5....
Why are people making so much noise instead of just reporting the bug upstream when stuff goes wrong with btrfs, and why do we hear so little about the positive impact of new improvements. Almost like the people behave like customers of commercial operating systems. :-)
>creating 100k files in a short span of time. And I'm not talking about unpacking boost, that's not enough files.
In JavaScript world that's really not that much. A project I've been working on has 120k+ files in node_modules, and `yarn install` creates the whole directory tree in a few seconds. It's not some obscure issue nobody ever runs into.
In JavaScript world that's really not that much. A project I've been working on has 120k+ files in node_modules, and `yarn install` creates the whole directory tree in a few seconds. It's not some obscure issue nobody ever runs into.
this is fair and i will cop to most of my exp in linux being in the "mainstream"/"commercial" filesystems. guilty as charged :)
Not btrfs and anecdotal but fedora 33 / 5.8 kernel / default gnome was unusable for me on amd r5 3500U. Headphone microphone didn’t work. Bluetooth ear phones and mic didn’t work. USB headphone microphone worked though. Sure enough most of the issues were resolved by 5.9 but I can no longer recommend Linux on the desktop.
With the problems you are listing, you would have never been able to recommend Linux. The problem stem from lack of driver support in the kernel for the devices on your machine.
If that is the case, then your machine maker obviously does not support linux. So, it's no surprise that your machine had problems with linux.
If you buy a machine that supports linux, you would not see those problems. Nothing to do with linux, mostly to do with interaction of linux and your machine manufacturer.
If that is the case, then your machine maker obviously does not support linux. So, it's no surprise that your machine had problems with linux.
If you buy a machine that supports linux, you would not see those problems. Nothing to do with linux, mostly to do with interaction of linux and your machine manufacturer.
Sorry I failed to mention that things were much better before the update. Sure the fingerprint reader goodix never worked but the things I mentioned above are regressions. I’m all in favor of wayland but if we say we remove existing working features (fedora 32) because security or whatever we might as well wear tin foil hats and stay away from computers.
I suggest you try Ubuntu LTS (not latest) or Debian less coolness factor but you don't get regression because only security updates are happening. Your hardware must be compatible and you need to resist the urge to get the latest shiny stuff.
Over the last 15 years, I've run a lot of distros on a lot of different hardware.
On desktop, Fedora has been by far the most reliable. Ubuntu LTS, as far as I can tell from using it for work, just means that annoying bugs that have been fixed in the upstream never get backported.
Case in point: Bluetooth on Ubuntu LTS has always been much less reliable for me than on Fedora.
Disclaimer: This is only my anecdotal experience, use whatever works best for you.
On desktop, Fedora has been by far the most reliable. Ubuntu LTS, as far as I can tell from using it for work, just means that annoying bugs that have been fixed in the upstream never get backported.
Case in point: Bluetooth on Ubuntu LTS has always been much less reliable for me than on Fedora.
Disclaimer: This is only my anecdotal experience, use whatever works best for you.
You can't have it both ways, you can't get only the bug fixes without the new bugs , except on LTS you can if you know how experiment with getting a new kernel or video driver but not updating your DE,
> getting a new kernel
> you can't get only the bug fixes without the new bugs
> if you know how experiment with getting a new kernel or video driver
I would agree with you if I was on my old machine with an nVidia graphics card which for what it is worth my new machine is a much better experience with AMD processor and integrated graphics but still how do you explain audio in failing to work as soon as I upgraded to Fedora 33 / kernel 5.8 and it (mostly) resolving itself when upgrading to 5.9 kernel? Is this a kernel bug or not? What caused it? What can we do to prevent it from happening in the future?
> you can't get only the bug fixes without the new bugs
> if you know how experiment with getting a new kernel or video driver
I would agree with you if I was on my old machine with an nVidia graphics card which for what it is worth my new machine is a much better experience with AMD processor and integrated graphics but still how do you explain audio in failing to work as soon as I upgraded to Fedora 33 / kernel 5.8 and it (mostly) resolving itself when upgrading to 5.9 kernel? Is this a kernel bug or not? What caused it? What can we do to prevent it from happening in the future?
What I would personally do is install Kubuntu LTS, then if I really need a new kernel because some hardware feature I enable a PPA that gives me that new kernel , if I need a different NVIDIA driver I install a PPA and try all the availleble drivers, find the one that works. Then if all works fine I don't upgrade the kernel or driver until I am forced and I always have the option to rollback,
Then when I want to try the next LTS years later I install it on a different partition and check if it works or not for my use case.
For my work I use Intellij , when there is a big update I get the .tag.gz and try it. If something goes wrong I still have the working version and I can go back.
Updating to latest and greatest was fun when I had the time and when I knew how to format the disk using "fdisk" and it was pleasurable to read and tweak stuff, this days I don't care about shiny stuff and my work does not require latest libraries and I am not using any first gen of hardware.
So IMO if you want stability and no surprises and the ability to maybe upgrade the kernel and a driver Ubuntu is a good solution(not sure about Debian or SUSE) and also I don't have experience with Wayland so maybe that invalidates things and is impossible to get a stable working Wayland setup.
Then when I want to try the next LTS years later I install it on a different partition and check if it works or not for my use case.
For my work I use Intellij , when there is a big update I get the .tag.gz and try it. If something goes wrong I still have the working version and I can go back.
Updating to latest and greatest was fun when I had the time and when I knew how to format the disk using "fdisk" and it was pleasurable to read and tweak stuff, this days I don't care about shiny stuff and my work does not require latest libraries and I am not using any first gen of hardware.
So IMO if you want stability and no surprises and the ability to maybe upgrade the kernel and a driver Ubuntu is a good solution(not sure about Debian or SUSE) and also I don't have experience with Wayland so maybe that invalidates things and is impossible to get a stable working Wayland setup.
It's not as compelling to write about positive experiences.
The main competitor to btrfs is zfs, which is harder to set up, arguably more complex and has licensing issues so you can't really ship things with it built in.
I like zfs on my server, but am also happy with btrfs on my laptop.
The main competitor to btrfs is zfs, which is harder to set up, arguably more complex and has licensing issues so you can't really ship things with it built in.
I like zfs on my server, but am also happy with btrfs on my laptop.
ZFS is not harder to set up imo. It's as easy as `sudo apt install zfsutils-linux` and `zpool create poolname raidz2 disk1 disk2 disk3`
I've been bitten by btrfs back when it was the new hot FS, so I'll just stick to ZFS until a distributed (multiple machines) equivalent of ZFS comes along.
I've been bitten by btrfs back when it was the new hot FS, so I'll just stick to ZFS until a distributed (multiple machines) equivalent of ZFS comes along.
> until a distributed (multiple machines) equivalent of ZFS comes along.
Ceph?
Ceph?
That's exactly what they want. It's got all the checksummed replication features that makes zfs awesome and it's pretty rock solid. It's even pretty resilient to dumb mistakes from the admin (ahem). Unfortunately ceph is primarily developed for folks running massive petabyte scale clusters, so setting up a home lab micro-cluster is still a fair bit more difficult than it needs to be, even with the new cephadm stuff. To wit, figuring out what the best practices for setting things up to run a small scale cluster is often guesswork and the pitfalls aren't always obvious.
I work (well, until January) for a company that specializes in Ceph support. And it is depressing to see how many customers have crashing OSDs or MDSs, or unexplainabe memory overuse problems. It looks much worse than btrfs. I don't want this at home. But, to be fair, for every distributed storage system (even as simple as DRBD), there is be a person who had extremely negative experience with it.
Synology has been using BTRFS for a while, I haven't had any issues with it.
https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/Btrfs
https://www.synology.com/en-global/dsm/Btrfs
It's interesting to compare with QNAP, a competitor of Synology, that does not use Btrfs (they stick to ext4 with mdadm) and they explained why: https://www.qnap.com/solution/qnap-ext4/en/
However, I am really not sure if the facts they provide are still relevant today. Like always with commercial documents, that must be taken with a grain of salt.
However, I am really not sure if the facts they provide are still relevant today. Like always with commercial documents, that must be taken with a grain of salt.
They use it just as a filesystem, like ext4. The RAID is still the classic Linux RAID because btrfs RAID isn't stable.
This means BTRFS isn't able to heal itself because there is no copy of the data that BTRFS could use.
I built my own NAS so I can just use ZFS with raidz, and when I ever have a silent data corruption the repair is done in a few seconds, not hours.
This means BTRFS isn't able to heal itself because there is no copy of the data that BTRFS could use.
I built my own NAS so I can just use ZFS with raidz, and when I ever have a silent data corruption the repair is done in a few seconds, not hours.
Unfortunately not available on every model.
Nobody posts about things that are working fine.
Does OpenZFS have a similar ratio of bad to good posts?
ZFS's killer feature is religious inspiration.
Write holes during resilvers are healthy and natural, but the same in a software RAID 5/6 configuration on BTRFS is unacceptably risky.
Brought to you by the same people who don't think SMR disks are used with ZFS in enterprise.
Write holes during resilvers are healthy and natural, but the same in a software RAID 5/6 configuration on BTRFS is unacceptably risky.
Brought to you by the same people who don't think SMR disks are used with ZFS in enterprise.
Forgive me but I'm completely missing what you're saying here. Are you saying that ZFS has a write hole when reslivering?
Raid5 on btrfs is not and has not been production ready. It's available in the code, but with appropriate warnings. You're not supposed to be using it, rather than it being "unacceptably risky".
That's the problem with btrfs. Raid5/6 still isn't production ready and loses data with cheap consumer ssd which could to disappear/reappear in a running system. On the other side raidz/z2 works rock solid. Of course I could use btrfs with mirrors instead but that's the reason why I use cheap consumer ssds. I can't spend that much money just to use btrfs so I stay with zfs.
It doesn't, but also their changelogs aren't seen by people who browse Linux changelogs. You'd look at https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/releases (which also contains a few bug fixes) if you're interested in zfs. Btrfs has quite a few more accidental readers.
Didn't Fedora transition to BTRFS as default in 33? I'm eager to see reports from that.
It did, but as far as I know it's effective on fresh installs only. It would be too risky to migrate automatically to Btrfs from ext4 during the 32->33 upgrade. I suspect a lot of users upgraded to 33 from 32 without seeing any problem with sticking with ext4 (including me). As a result, a lot of users are still using ext4.
Watching René talk about this stuff on his Youtube channel is delightful. I highly recommend it.
I'm assuming you mean René Rebe [1] ;)
[1] https://www.youtube.com/user/renerebe
[1] https://www.youtube.com/user/renerebe
HAMMER2 cannot be ready soon enough.
Is there any talk of porting to Linux?
No idea. I have only heard there is interest from openbsd.
At the time, Matt told them off because it's wasn't "ready for porting yet" and wanted to save them useless work.
At the time, Matt told them off because it's wasn't "ready for porting yet" and wanted to save them useless work.
You can get 'surplus' HP P410 from Ali or Ebay, they are cheap and work just fine. Always was told that you can't beat hardware RAID and now that they are available people don't seem to be interested. Just looking at it I can say that apart from CPU/GPU chips themselves it's the best piece of electronics in my PC.
Where as I was always told to avoid hardware raid if possible, and that's been a mantra for 15+ years.
The reason I was given is twofold. 1) If your RAID card dies it's nice to be able to plug drives into any controller and be able to access the data. 2) "look at how often MDADM fix bugs. Now look at how often your RAID card firmware gets fixed... use MDADM".
Modern filesystems like btrfs & zfs both prefer to deal with the RAID aspects themselves as it gives them far more control. Even if you're a hardware raid afficianado, I wouldn't recommend formatting (eg) ZFS on top of a hardware raid pool.
The reason I was given is twofold. 1) If your RAID card dies it's nice to be able to plug drives into any controller and be able to access the data. 2) "look at how often MDADM fix bugs. Now look at how often your RAID card firmware gets fixed... use MDADM".
Modern filesystems like btrfs & zfs both prefer to deal with the RAID aspects themselves as it gives them far more control. Even if you're a hardware raid afficianado, I wouldn't recommend formatting (eg) ZFS on top of a hardware raid pool.
> Now look at how often your RAID card firmware gets fixed
It was updated plenty, from 1.58(B) (earliest I can find) to 6.64(B)
https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/swd/public/detail?swItemId=MTX-...
I'm not recommending some abstract hardware RAID, I'm recommending this particular card for personal use, with backup obviously. Although if you just use RAID 0 or 1, then data is perfectly readable outside of RAID with a normal SATA controller.
It was updated plenty, from 1.58(B) (earliest I can find) to 6.64(B)
https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/swd/public/detail?swItemId=MTX-...
I'm not recommending some abstract hardware RAID, I'm recommending this particular card for personal use, with backup obviously. Although if you just use RAID 0 or 1, then data is perfectly readable outside of RAID with a normal SATA controller.
Even for home use I'm not sure I could recommend them.
From experience using them in servers, I'd site a handful of problems:
+ Raid 5 requires BBWC + Raid 6 requires licensing + HPE requires a support contract to download most firmware + When used in servers, they report non-hp drives as being in a constant fault state.
+ Raid 5 requires BBWC + Raid 6 requires licensing + HPE requires a support contract to download most firmware + When used in servers, they report non-hp drives as being in a constant fault state.
> BBWC
why wouldn't you use it if you have it?
> Raid 6 requires licensing
Keys are out there and can be googled, in any case you probably don't need RAID 6 or any extra features for personal use
> HPE requires a support contract to download most firmware
Um, firmware for this card is on the page I linked, free as in beer
> When used in servers, they report non-hp drives as being in a constant fault state
I wouldn't know, haven't seen anything of the sort personally
why wouldn't you use it if you have it?
> Raid 6 requires licensing
Keys are out there and can be googled, in any case you probably don't need RAID 6 or any extra features for personal use
> HPE requires a support contract to download most firmware
Um, firmware for this card is on the page I linked, free as in beer
> When used in servers, they report non-hp drives as being in a constant fault state
I wouldn't know, haven't seen anything of the sort personally
I mentioned the BBWC because the first few links I found to buy the card didn't include it.
Nice to see firmware available - in 2014 HP started requiring support contracts or warranties to download firmware updates for the servers which really turned me off them. I didn't realise RAID firmware wasn't included in that (for some reason iLO firmware isn't either, but I think that's probably because it includes OSS). For this reason alone I'd avoid HP on principal.
I'm hoping one day I can find a reasonably cheap RAID card that still supports using hte BBWC in JBOD mode...
Nice to see firmware available - in 2014 HP started requiring support contracts or warranties to download firmware updates for the servers which really turned me off them. I didn't realise RAID firmware wasn't included in that (for some reason iLO firmware isn't either, but I think that's probably because it includes OSS). For this reason alone I'd avoid HP on principal.
I'm hoping one day I can find a reasonably cheap RAID card that still supports using hte BBWC in JBOD mode...
they are different animals .. 'right tool for the right job'
hardware raid has the hw complexity / pickyness you mention, but also is safer in crashes for checksumming raid levels (e.g. 4,5,6) since the stripe checksum happens from controller->disk in hardware rather than os->controller->disk in software, so you're less likely to lose a stripe due to OS issues (all else - like bugs - being equal)
also, IO wise, any mirrored raid is going to require N*mirrors of IO on the system bus, so you're more likely to saturate it
that said, with faster tech (NVMe), individual drives can easily saturate a single card, so its 'worth' paying the multiple IO pentalty multiplexed onto multiple individual lanes since the card is more likely to be the bottleneck than the bus
also, hw raid controllers even in jbod mode might be needed to get enough device fanout, though you're not using the controller for raid in that case
hardware raid has the hw complexity / pickyness you mention, but also is safer in crashes for checksumming raid levels (e.g. 4,5,6) since the stripe checksum happens from controller->disk in hardware rather than os->controller->disk in software, so you're less likely to lose a stripe due to OS issues (all else - like bugs - being equal)
also, IO wise, any mirrored raid is going to require N*mirrors of IO on the system bus, so you're more likely to saturate it
that said, with faster tech (NVMe), individual drives can easily saturate a single card, so its 'worth' paying the multiple IO pentalty multiplexed onto multiple individual lanes since the card is more likely to be the bottleneck than the bus
also, hw raid controllers even in jbod mode might be needed to get enough device fanout, though you're not using the controller for raid in that case
> Always was told that you can't beat hardware RAID
Recently with super powerful multi-core CPUs being the norm especially in places where RAID is a consideration, hardware RAID makes less and less sense. You just create additional complications like when moving your RAID array between 2 otherwise identical cards but with different firmwares fails. So you end up always buying spares and testing the migration before putting any data, then you freeze the config in place. On the other side you may be stuck forever with a buggy firmware.
Recently with super powerful multi-core CPUs being the norm especially in places where RAID is a consideration, hardware RAID makes less and less sense. You just create additional complications like when moving your RAID array between 2 otherwise identical cards but with different firmwares fails. So you end up always buying spares and testing the migration before putting any data, then you freeze the config in place. On the other side you may be stuck forever with a buggy firmware.
The problem with hardware RAID is that if the hardware fails, you need to replace that specific card with the same type to recover the data. If they're cheap enough and you want to go down that route, then buy two so you've got a backup.
On the server side, the tendency is now towards vertical striping (directly addressing disks on multiple servers through the network with software).
On the server side, the tendency is now towards vertical striping (directly addressing disks on multiple servers through the network with software).
>Always was told that you can't beat hardware RAID
Is that new?
I have always been told to avoid hardware raid when possible.
Is that new?
I have always been told to avoid hardware raid when possible.
There were pseudo hardware RAID controllers aplenty, that's what you were told to avoid.
Not necessarily the case - avoiding pseudo-HW RAID controllers can be reasonable advice, and may have been what was said, but some of us were explicitly told to avoid real hardware RAID controllers, period, for the reasons that have been listed upthread. [1]
It's great that you've had good experiences with this particular hardware RAID controller and are recommending it to others, but it's also the case that there are legitimate reasons to avoid all hardware RAID cards in some setups.
[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25518122
It's great that you've had good experiences with this particular hardware RAID controller and are recommending it to others, but it's also the case that there are legitimate reasons to avoid all hardware RAID cards in some setups.
[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25518122
Well, what are your experiences exactly?
Recently, I've switched P420i to HBA mode -- that's all ZFS running on that Proliant wanted.
Too bad it's not possible to boot from it in HBA mode too.
Too bad it's not possible to boot from it in HBA mode too.
Not sure why anyone would use btrfs over zfs. And that's coming from someone who used to use old XFS in an unreliable power environment.
Still waiting to switch to bcachefs.
You can help it arrive faster by supporting the development: https://www.patreon.com/bcachefs
I wish to god people would get a clue with BTRFS:
- don't use it because you think the name is "cool". Every time I go to a linux meetup, some idiot starts talking about the name.
- it takes 5-10 years for a filesystem or database to mature after it's released. Otherwise you will lose data and cry.
- the recent BTRFS performance improvements are against itself, not other filesystems. EXT4 is an excellent fs, as good as XFS performance-wise overall.
Source: DBA and storage engineer.
- don't use it because you think the name is "cool". Every time I go to a linux meetup, some idiot starts talking about the name.
- it takes 5-10 years for a filesystem or database to mature after it's released. Otherwise you will lose data and cry.
- the recent BTRFS performance improvements are against itself, not other filesystems. EXT4 is an excellent fs, as good as XFS performance-wise overall.
Source: DBA and storage engineer.
> - it takes 5-10 years for a filesystem or database to mature after it's released.
Great news! BTRFS was introduced in the mainline kernel in March 2009! It's been ten years.
Great news! BTRFS was introduced in the mainline kernel in March 2009! It's been ten years.
And it's been the default filesystem for openSUSE (system partitions only) since December 2015 [0], so there's been plenty of real-world usage too.
[0] https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:13.2
[0] https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:13.2
Yeah, I remember that.
I never do a separate home partition though, so I ended up with the entire disk in Btrfs. I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have when setting up partitions during installation, and didn't totally understand the implications of using Btrfs back then.
Eventually though, it filled up my entire drive with snapshots, causing me much confusion and many disk full errors until I could figure out what had happened.
That experience turned me off from openSUSE for several years, until I finally started using it (with a more conservative choice of Ext4) again for a few machines a couple years ago.
I never do a separate home partition though, so I ended up with the entire disk in Btrfs. I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have when setting up partitions during installation, and didn't totally understand the implications of using Btrfs back then.
Eventually though, it filled up my entire drive with snapshots, causing me much confusion and many disk full errors until I could figure out what had happened.
That experience turned me off from openSUSE for several years, until I finally started using it (with a more conservative choice of Ext4) again for a few machines a couple years ago.
The snapshots in this case come from suse, not btrfs itself. It's their package tooling creating them https://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/leap/reference/html/b...
If you're on lvm, you're still getting snapshots now, even with ext4.
If you're on lvm, you're still getting snapshots now, even with ext4.
Agreed, Btrfs has been out for quite a while. I think it is only now beginning to become more widely accepted or noticed by the broader community, which is both a blessing and curse.
That said, I'm going to continue to opt for Ext4 or XFS for the time being, even on distros where Btrfs is the default. Probably in a few years I'll get around to upgrading to Btrfs.
That said, I'm going to continue to opt for Ext4 or XFS for the time being, even on distros where Btrfs is the default. Probably in a few years I'll get around to upgrading to Btrfs.
I use XFS too, but some large companies such as Facebook have adopted Btrfs on their servers.
https://lwn.net/Articles/824855/
https://lwn.net/Articles/824855/
With brtfs having all kind of crazy bugs and zfs never being finished, I guess it's back to ext4...
It's an edge case performance regression. There were also changes that improve performance in other cases. That happens all the time in software development.
Is any software ever finished?
ZFS has been quite feature-full and production ready for more than a decade... why do you think it is not finished?
ZFS has been quite feature-full and production ready for more than a decade... why do you think it is not finished?
> Is any software ever finished?
Yes. When it does what it advertises, properly.
Yes. When it does what it advertises, properly.
OpenZFS, in general, does what it advertises fairly well, and does not advertise features it does not possess.
In what way has your experience differed?
In what way has your experience differed?
My answer does not in any way reference the quality of ZFS. It only addressed the GP's question which I quoted.
My apologies, my question should have been directed more specifically at the GP who claimed ZFS is never finished.
Back to ext4 because btrfs had crazy bugs?
ext4 had at least two critical data corruption bugs in the past 5 years in stable kernels (personal anecdote: one ruined the root filesystem on a server that I used, after which I stopped using ext4).
ext4 had at least two critical data corruption bugs in the past 5 years in stable kernels (personal anecdote: one ruined the root filesystem on a server that I used, after which I stopped using ext4).
> ext4 had at least two critical data corruption bugs in the past 5 years in stable kernels
No it hadn't. Those bugs were lower in the stack in block layer.
No it hadn't. Those bugs were lower in the stack in block layer.
Yes, it did. Here's the fix for one of the ext4 corruption bugs: https://lwn.net/Articles/645722/ (see also https://lwn.net/Articles/645720/).
The one you're referring to is https://lwn.net/Articles/774440/ which is a different bug.
I should add that as a user, what matters to me is the reliability of my data. If a bug exists outside of fs/ext4 in the kernel but affects only ext4 and not other filesystems (such as https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxNDQ which was caused by an ext4-related commit, and similar others in prior years), this makes ext4 unreliable for me.
The one you're referring to is https://lwn.net/Articles/774440/ which is a different bug.
I should add that as a user, what matters to me is the reliability of my data. If a bug exists outside of fs/ext4 in the kernel but affects only ext4 and not other filesystems (such as https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxNDQ which was caused by an ext4-related commit, and similar others in prior years), this makes ext4 unreliable for me.
You claimed there were two critical data corruption bugs in the past 5 years, one which was debunked as a not ext4 bug and the other one you linked is from April 2015, which happened more than 5 years ago.
> which was caused by an ext4-related commit
Now that's blatantly wrong. It wasn't caused by an ext4-related commit. The commit to blame was scheduler code in the block layer. Nothing filesystem specific.
> which was caused by an ext4-related commit
Now that's blatantly wrong. It wasn't caused by an ext4-related commit. The commit to blame was scheduler code in the block layer. Nothing filesystem specific.
You're arguing that it happened 5 years and 7 months ago, which is more than 5 years, so all is well with ext4. Seriously?
The point is, ext4 isn't a monument of reliability like you delude yourself with, and it had, and will continue having data corruption bugs.
> Now that's blatantly wrong. It wasn't caused by an ext4-related commit.
Yes it was. This is very clear from the context: https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/project/linux-ext4/patch/500F1C...
You can try and weasel your way out with the semantics, say that it didn't change any files under ext4/ (which does happen with xfs/btrfs/... related patches too BTW, simply because fs/ contains common fs code), but the reality is, it was an ext4 related fix, it appeared in "linux-ext4" mailing list, and Ted Tso, the ext4 maintainer, signed off the patch.
Lastly, idolizing a piece of code is nonsensical. Yes, btrfs had its data corruption bugs, but you can't pretend that ext4 and other filesystems didn't.
The point is, ext4 isn't a monument of reliability like you delude yourself with, and it had, and will continue having data corruption bugs.
> Now that's blatantly wrong. It wasn't caused by an ext4-related commit.
Yes it was. This is very clear from the context: https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/project/linux-ext4/patch/500F1C...
You can try and weasel your way out with the semantics, say that it didn't change any files under ext4/ (which does happen with xfs/btrfs/... related patches too BTW, simply because fs/ contains common fs code), but the reality is, it was an ext4 related fix, it appeared in "linux-ext4" mailing list, and Ted Tso, the ext4 maintainer, signed off the patch.
Lastly, idolizing a piece of code is nonsensical. Yes, btrfs had its data corruption bugs, but you can't pretend that ext4 and other filesystems didn't.
Is ZFS not ready for use? I was going to use it in production next year.
One thing Btrfs somewhat promised was mixed disk RAIDs. Ie, having a 2TB disk and a 1TB disk and being able to say "keep 2 copies of any data in this subvolume" and "keep only 1 copy in this subvolume".
I'm currently on Bcachefs, which has erasure coding with similar promises and works better for me.
ZFS is more rigid, I have to have all matched disks for best performance, plus RAM unless I like bad performance (I don't). This could be solved by striping disks into 1TB partitions, but ZFS doesn't like living on a partitioned disk nearly as much.
Mixed disk has a bunch of cool properties for homelab users. Bcachefs also solves another problem; caching and speed. I could designate my 1TB NVMe as fast and my SATA 2TB SSDs as slow. I could also define that /tmp requiers no Erasure Coding and everything else requires 2 replicas. Then I would be able to combine the performance of my NVMe with the capacity of my SATA SSDs while gaining a simple redundance solution. My NAS has a dozen of mixed disks that I could combine more easily than ever.
The issue with ZFS is not that it's not ready to use. The issue is that it's born from enterprise and requires a costly enterprise setup to run, rather than a cheap homelab setup.
I'm currently on Bcachefs, which has erasure coding with similar promises and works better for me.
ZFS is more rigid, I have to have all matched disks for best performance, plus RAM unless I like bad performance (I don't). This could be solved by striping disks into 1TB partitions, but ZFS doesn't like living on a partitioned disk nearly as much.
Mixed disk has a bunch of cool properties for homelab users. Bcachefs also solves another problem; caching and speed. I could designate my 1TB NVMe as fast and my SATA 2TB SSDs as slow. I could also define that /tmp requiers no Erasure Coding and everything else requires 2 replicas. Then I would be able to combine the performance of my NVMe with the capacity of my SATA SSDs while gaining a simple redundance solution. My NAS has a dozen of mixed disks that I could combine more easily than ever.
The issue with ZFS is not that it's not ready to use. The issue is that it's born from enterprise and requires a costly enterprise setup to run, rather than a cheap homelab setup.
> but ZFS doesn't like living on a partitioned disk nearly as much.
Don't know how true is this, since it's not even possible to create a zpool on the whole unpartitioned device on linux. It automatically creates GPT label with zfs and a small efi partition.
Don't know how true is this, since it's not even possible to create a zpool on the whole unpartitioned device on linux. It automatically creates GPT label with zfs and a small efi partition.
That is true, but I suspect that only happens to protect the zpool against tools like the Windows Repair Install (which likes to attempt repairs on disks without GPT label). Using ZFS on a partition inside a GPT disk tends to lead to a few quirky behaviours, like for example ZFS not always reporting correct SMART data of the device.
It's nonsense. A ZFS pool is created from block devices, and ZFS doesn't care if those are whole discs or partitions.
Every ZFS pool I have is composed of GPT partitions, and this is also recommended in ZFS books as good practice to make it easier to identify a failed drive. Since you see the GPT partition name in the "zpool status" and other tools' output, it's handy.
Every ZFS pool I have is composed of GPT partitions, and this is also recommended in ZFS books as good practice to make it easier to identify a failed drive. Since you see the GPT partition name in the "zpool status" and other tools' output, it's handy.
On ZFS you can have multiple vdevs of different sizes in the same pool, and you can also set copies=N to have multiple copies of the data available for extra redundancy.
You can't unfortunately tell it that different disks have different speeds.
It also works just fine w/ a small (1GB or so) ARC if you want, just at an obvious performance penalty compared to having a larger cache.
You can't unfortunately tell it that different disks have different speeds.
It also works just fine w/ a small (1GB or so) ARC if you want, just at an obvious performance penalty compared to having a larger cache.
ZFS cannot have different sizes in a single vdev and I'm tired of having to explain this to people everytime I mention this issue.
It can depend a lot on your definition of "ready to use".
For instance, a common threshold for "ready to use" is "included in a released version of the upstream Linux kernel, and not under CONFIG_BROKEN or CONFIG_STAGING". Under that definition, neither ZFS nor bcachefs are "ready to use".
For instance, a common threshold for "ready to use" is "included in a released version of the upstream Linux kernel, and not under CONFIG_BROKEN or CONFIG_STAGING". Under that definition, neither ZFS nor bcachefs are "ready to use".
ZoL != OpenZFS != ZoF. A lot has changed recently, so you'll have to clarify the platform and version.
ZFS on FUSE should be deprecated by now, and ZoL I believe merged with OpenZFS for the 2.0 release.
FreeBSD ZFS is fine, and just check your versions if using it on Linux. Ie- don't use anything pre-2.0.
ZFS on FUSE should be deprecated by now, and ZoL I believe merged with OpenZFS for the 2.0 release.
FreeBSD ZFS is fine, and just check your versions if using it on Linux. Ie- don't use anything pre-2.0.
ZoL is very much production ready. Been using it for 5+ years. Rock solid
My home server is hardly production, but it has been running a ZFS raidz+1 for more than 5 years, and survived a disk failure.
(Nb, avoid SMR hard drives - the rebuild took more than a week!)
(Nb, avoid SMR hard drives - the rebuild took more than a week!)
Mine is RAIDZ too, and has become unusably slow since a few years back. Now I need to find a way to recreate the pool, but it's too much data to store on another disk... Not in love with ZFS so far.
ZFS is great for storing data. It's very unlikely it will lose your data when using ZFS.
It does however require a bit of care to maintain performance, and you need to know your expected workload going in. Otherwise you can find yourself in a situation with a very poorly performing pool where the only realistic route to recovery is a send/receive to a fresh pool and back.
If you do not have a lot of sync workload (VMs, DBs) and don't have super-high performance needs, say a home NAS, then mainly you just need to think about not filling up the pool too much.
A nice way to do this is to create a root dataset where you set a quota to say 75% of capacity, and then create all other datasets below this one. You should not go above 85% space usage, as ZFS switches allocation strategy then to one which can significantly increase fragmentation.
If you do have a lot of sync writes, a SLOG device is basically mandatory. The SLOG device does not have to be large, it only stores about 5-10 seconds worth of writes, so 10-20GB can be plenty. I've partitioned up my SSDs and created a mirror out of two small partitions, using the remaining SSD space for other things.
One thing to keep in mind is that while an L2ARC device sounds like a great thing, depending on your configuration you can actually slow things down with one. A bunch of disks has a lot more bandwidth than a single SATA SSD. An L2ARC device also requires some memory overhead, so reduces your primary ARC. Again depending on load this can be detrimental.
And finally, don't ever think about using deduplication, unless you've read about the consequences, measured the performance benefits and ensured the memory overhead is acceptable. It sounds great on paper but has a lot of associated downsides that can ruin pool performance, and disabling it does not make it go away.
At least that's what I've picked up so far.
It does however require a bit of care to maintain performance, and you need to know your expected workload going in. Otherwise you can find yourself in a situation with a very poorly performing pool where the only realistic route to recovery is a send/receive to a fresh pool and back.
If you do not have a lot of sync workload (VMs, DBs) and don't have super-high performance needs, say a home NAS, then mainly you just need to think about not filling up the pool too much.
A nice way to do this is to create a root dataset where you set a quota to say 75% of capacity, and then create all other datasets below this one. You should not go above 85% space usage, as ZFS switches allocation strategy then to one which can significantly increase fragmentation.
If you do have a lot of sync writes, a SLOG device is basically mandatory. The SLOG device does not have to be large, it only stores about 5-10 seconds worth of writes, so 10-20GB can be plenty. I've partitioned up my SSDs and created a mirror out of two small partitions, using the remaining SSD space for other things.
One thing to keep in mind is that while an L2ARC device sounds like a great thing, depending on your configuration you can actually slow things down with one. A bunch of disks has a lot more bandwidth than a single SATA SSD. An L2ARC device also requires some memory overhead, so reduces your primary ARC. Again depending on load this can be detrimental.
And finally, don't ever think about using deduplication, unless you've read about the consequences, measured the performance benefits and ensured the memory overhead is acceptable. It sounds great on paper but has a lot of associated downsides that can ruin pool performance, and disabling it does not make it go away.
At least that's what I've picked up so far.
This is a home NAS with 50% free space, I rarely write stuff and don't even read much, yet it still managed to get super slow :( I don't use deduplication or compression, and the good people over at #zfs have failed to find anything wrong multiple times.
I think recreating the entire thing is about my only option at the moment.
I think recreating the entire thing is about my only option at the moment.
That sucks, but also very weird.
My pool, 2 vdevs each a 4-way RAID-Z1, has been used and abused for almost 7 years now. I've gone over the 85% mark but it still works fine, performance too.
Some VM stuff but mostly media and similar.
Do you mean slow IOPS or also sequential performance?
My pool, 2 vdevs each a 4-way RAID-Z1, has been used and abused for almost 7 years now. I've gone over the 85% mark but it still works fine, performance too.
Some VM stuff but mostly media and similar.
Do you mean slow IOPS or also sequential performance?
It's mostly sequential performance, but it's also very odd. Deleting a single 2 GB file sometimes takes tens of seconds, or copying files from one volume to another will again be extremely slow.. .
It does sound like fragmentation, which can still happen with a pool that's not filled under the "right" circumstances (usually related to workload vs configuration).
But yeah sadly that's the one area where ZFS is less stellar. Once it's fragmented it's hard to fix. Easiest is to send/receive to another pool, but as you note that is not always feasible.
But yeah sadly that's the one area where ZFS is less stellar. Once it's fragmented it's hard to fix. Easiest is to send/receive to another pool, but as you note that is not always feasible.
Is there no defragmentation tool? I do have lots of free space.
Sadly no, not really. Part of it is that it's complicated due to copy-on-write and snapshots. Other part is manpower, it has not been a high-priority issue for most production pools it seems. Google for "block pointer rewrite".
Assuming your free space fragmentation is not too bad (check output of zpool list, "frag" column is free space fragmentation level), you could just move files back and forth between the two. Assuming you don't have snapshots holding on to the files, this can help reduce the fragmentation.
Otherwise you're stuck with the send/receive.
Though I'd try the mailing list[1] to see if any of the gurus can help identify what's going wrong before attempting random ailments.
[1]: https://zfsonlinux.topicbox.com/groups/zfs-discuss/
Assuming your free space fragmentation is not too bad (check output of zpool list, "frag" column is free space fragmentation level), you could just move files back and forth between the two. Assuming you don't have snapshots holding on to the files, this can help reduce the fragmentation.
Otherwise you're stuck with the send/receive.
Though I'd try the mailing list[1] to see if any of the gurus can help identify what's going wrong before attempting random ailments.
[1]: https://zfsonlinux.topicbox.com/groups/zfs-discuss/
Hmm, I'll try the mailing list, thank you for your help!
[0] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1943906#p1943906
[1] https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=210765