Chef David Chang on failure, Thoreau, and vegetarians(37signals.com)
37signals.com
Chef David Chang on failure, Thoreau, and vegetarians
http://www.37signals.com/svn/posts/1156-chef-david-chang-on-failure-thoreau-and-vegetarians
31 comments
I didn't really feel the hatred that you feel. As a vegetarian as well, I have come to terms with the fact that I will not be able to have the same experience that the people I go out with will have, but it is selfish to believe that people should cater to your needs and beliefs. Vegetarianism is a choice I made and my friends should not have to sacrifice their time or happiness to cater to mine. I just got back from vacation and eating was actually not that enjoyable because almost every restaurant served mainly seafood so I was left to eat various side dishes (most not too healthy). Chang is targeting a certain market and group of people and he said himself that it is NY and there are many other specialty restaurants for people to eat. Enjoy all the things that go along with the meal and experience, and then get your fill after or someone else. To expect that every place cater to your beliefs or lifestyle is selfish and he said he respects vegetarians, what more could you want?
He didn't say he respects vegetarians, he said it as part of a sentence.
Jon Stewart has a nice discussion about such sentences. In particular he analysed one form of statement which made things very clear. The form was "I think your <relationship> is a <expletive>, no disrespect". Just because you tag all your statements with "no disrespect" doesn't mean you are not actively hostile and disrespectful.
Jon Stewart has a nice discussion about such sentences. In particular he analysed one form of statement which made things very clear. The form was "I think your <relationship> is a <expletive>, no disrespect". Just because you tag all your statements with "no disrespect" doesn't mean you are not actively hostile and disrespectful.
Where did I say that people have to cater to my beliefs and lifestyle. I know language has limitations when it comes to communication. But I am really astounded as to how you came to this interpretation of what I said.
Let me write it again: My friends go to this place, I tag along because I want to be with my friends. Chef dude or friends dont have to be offended - because I am not demanding anything, I am saying please please don't mind me, and go ahed and have fun.
Let me write it again: My friends go to this place, I tag along because I want to be with my friends. Chef dude or friends dont have to be offended - because I am not demanding anything, I am saying please please don't mind me, and go ahed and have fun.
> I am saying please please don't mind me, and go ahed and have fun.
You already said you'd make "chef dude" pick out the meat. That requires him to mind you and cater to your lifestyle. He said he won't, that you should eat somewhere else. He's standing behind his food and that should be applauded.
You already said you'd make "chef dude" pick out the meat. That requires him to mind you and cater to your lifestyle. He said he won't, that you should eat somewhere else. He's standing behind his food and that should be applauded.
Ok, I am having so much difficulty to get this across, cause I am coming to understand that we come from very different places. So I am gonna keep trying. and then more.
"That requires him to mind you and cater to your lifestyle", when I said that my vegetarianism springs not from conscious thought, you should understand that its no longer a choice for me. Now if this guy stands for his food, I will show you an architect who thinks large obvious parking spaces with blue paint smeared on them makes his beautiful beautiful building look bad. Would you consider going back on disability laws?
Now I am not going to stand and say this is how all vegetarians are. But the fact that I exist and many many more like me, should make you reconsider.
Can't passion for your food, and compassion for a fellow human being co-exist?
"That requires him to mind you and cater to your lifestyle", when I said that my vegetarianism springs not from conscious thought, you should understand that its no longer a choice for me. Now if this guy stands for his food, I will show you an architect who thinks large obvious parking spaces with blue paint smeared on them makes his beautiful beautiful building look bad. Would you consider going back on disability laws?
Now I am not going to stand and say this is how all vegetarians are. But the fact that I exist and many many more like me, should make you reconsider.
Can't passion for your food, and compassion for a fellow human being co-exist?
If restaurants were required by law to serve vegetarian dishes, you would have a point. But luckily that's not the case. I don't eat sea food, so if friends are going to a sea food restaurant I either opt not to go or make arrangements to eat before or after. It's not a big deal, I am not going to try and have the kitchen whip up something else because I can't deal with their menu.
There are people with serious food allergies, so much so that they will die if they eat certain foods, but restaurants are not required to make available optional dishes for all possible patrons (for you it's veggies, for someone else it's gluten for someone else it's peanuts, etc etc etc). No one can please everyone. If you can't eat the food, just don't go.
There are people with serious food allergies, so much so that they will die if they eat certain foods, but restaurants are not required to make available optional dishes for all possible patrons (for you it's veggies, for someone else it's gluten for someone else it's peanuts, etc etc etc). No one can please everyone. If you can't eat the food, just don't go.
"If restaurants were required by law to serve vegetarian dishes, you would have a point."
It wasn't a law to have large obvious blue parking spaces before some one pointed out. Did they not have a point before it became a law? Is anything that is illegal at this point in time pointless?
It wasn't a law to have large obvious blue parking spaces before some one pointed out. Did they not have a point before it became a law? Is anything that is illegal at this point in time pointless?
I'm a vegetarian too, but I'm not really offended at all. It's a business decision to save time and money because we make up such a small percentage of customers.
This is sort of the same way I feel about computer games. I'm a Mac user and almost all games are only for the PC. I really appreciate Blizzard for making games on the Mac, but I completely understand why there's no native TF2, Portals, or Guild Wars for me =/.
This is sort of the same way I feel about computer games. I'm a Mac user and almost all games are only for the PC. I really appreciate Blizzard for making games on the Mac, but I completely understand why there's no native TF2, Portals, or Guild Wars for me =/.
That's like going to a play and turning your back to the stage. It's insulting and disrespectful, stick to restaurants that cater to vegetarians or who don't care about the food they cook.
Thats not like going to a play and turning your back, thats like taking your children to an amusement park, and being happy watching them do the fun stuff and enjoy themselves.
My actions can be interpreted as insulting when infact they are not. This is why I am offering an explanation. Thats how people live in harmony: they intend no harm, and they explain when they are mis-understood.
My actions can be interpreted as insulting when infact they are not. This is why I am offering an explanation. Thats how people live in harmony: they intend no harm, and they explain when they are mis-understood.
I can kind of see his point, but he's missing the boat if he's never had vegetarian sushi. Vegetables have long been an important part of sushi. I also find this to be a good litmus test for an itamae: the ones my fish-eating friends love the most, also make the best food without fish.
It's simply another constraint, and as much as we say we hate them, they're crucial to our work. I see "make me great food, with no meat" is not much different from "write an interrupt handler, in under 200 bytes" or "paint a fresco, on the ceiling".
It's simply another constraint, and as much as we say we hate them, they're crucial to our work. I see "make me great food, with no meat" is not much different from "write an interrupt handler, in under 200 bytes" or "paint a fresco, on the ceiling".
An influential quote that stuck with me was when Chang stated (when referring to Walden by Thoreau) that "if you really try and you want to do something, then go for broke". This means a lot to me because while growing up I was always told that you can never put all your eggs in one basket. So, accordingly, I focussed on developing a wide breadth of skills, but subsequently I never felt like I had mastered any to the point that I could develop a profession in. At twenty two I am starting to realize this fact and while scary, I am glad that I still have time to narrow my focus. I am on my last year of college so it is late to be prodigious in any field, but that does not mean I cannot be the best. I just wish I was told to go for broke growing up rather than to "not put my eggs all in one basket" because now rather than feel I have nothing to fall back on, I feel scared to dive into one particular field (but maybe that just comes with the age and the crossroad I am at in my life).
The greatest thing that you can grab from this interview, though, is the parallel (not implied) between why he stopped playing golf at such a young age and the ethos that he runs his restaurants by. Claiming to be a fairly competitive individual, he said that he stopped playing golf for mostly two reasons, 1.) it was no longer fun to do competitively and 2.) he knew that he would not be the best. Whether he acknowledges this or not, he has gone the other direction with his restaurants. He was asked by Rose if he desires to have a restaurant that is "Michelin Star" caliber but strongly stated that he did not wish to do so. The laid back demeanor and attitude reflects the way he runs his restaurant. The moment you strive to be the best, the fun and enjoyable elements can disappear quite fast (I can speak from personal experience myself playing competitive golf as well). He has simply worked hard at his trade with the focus of doing well and living by a few simple principles (not to mention a little luck thrown in). You have to decide yourself whether it is worth sacrificing some happiness to reach the end goal you desire (Chang had said that attaining a Michelin would come with a stress level they do not need).
The greatest thing that you can grab from this interview, though, is the parallel (not implied) between why he stopped playing golf at such a young age and the ethos that he runs his restaurants by. Claiming to be a fairly competitive individual, he said that he stopped playing golf for mostly two reasons, 1.) it was no longer fun to do competitively and 2.) he knew that he would not be the best. Whether he acknowledges this or not, he has gone the other direction with his restaurants. He was asked by Rose if he desires to have a restaurant that is "Michelin Star" caliber but strongly stated that he did not wish to do so. The laid back demeanor and attitude reflects the way he runs his restaurant. The moment you strive to be the best, the fun and enjoyable elements can disappear quite fast (I can speak from personal experience myself playing competitive golf as well). He has simply worked hard at his trade with the focus of doing well and living by a few simple principles (not to mention a little luck thrown in). You have to decide yourself whether it is worth sacrificing some happiness to reach the end goal you desire (Chang had said that attaining a Michelin would come with a stress level they do not need).
Here is Thoreau's full quote in context:
"We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake, not by mechanical aids, but by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us in our soundest sleep. I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by a conscious endeavor. It is something to be able to paint a particular picture, or to carve a statue, and so to make a few objects beautiful; but it is far more glorious to carve and paint the very atmosphere and medium through which we look, which morally we can do. To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts. Every man is tasked to make his life, even in its details, worthy of the contemplation of his most elevated and critical hour. If we refused, or rather used up, such paltry information as we get, the oracles would distinctly inform us how this might be done."
"We must learn to reawaken and keep ourselves awake, not by mechanical aids, but by an infinite expectation of the dawn, which does not forsake us in our soundest sleep. I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by a conscious endeavor. It is something to be able to paint a particular picture, or to carve a statue, and so to make a few objects beautiful; but it is far more glorious to carve and paint the very atmosphere and medium through which we look, which morally we can do. To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts. Every man is tasked to make his life, even in its details, worthy of the contemplation of his most elevated and critical hour. If we refused, or rather used up, such paltry information as we get, the oracles would distinctly inform us how this might be done."
Trying to be the best at something is a tournament, which is a zero sum game in some ways... only one person can ever be the best. Trying, instead, to create value and good things in the world is not a zero sum game - many people can do it.
"Going for Broke" must resonate deeply for anyone with an entrepreneurial spirit.It's really hard to get anywhere fast without taking 'unreasonable risk', like quitting a well paid job in a bad economy in order to pursue your dreams. I've had the balls to do that once. My entrepreneurial endeavor did not really succeed but I ended up learning so much along the way that I landed a 'fantastic' software engineering position. If you have the stomach for it 'going for broke' is a quick way of changing things around you.Think of it this way, you will either Win big or Fail fast.Either way you won't get bored.
Irony is that Chang would've likely failed to get Thoreau to eat at his restaurant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau
How is this hacker news???
Because it is more focussed on the startup and entrepreneurial side of HN. Just because an individual concentrated in another sector of business other than tech does not necessarily mean that his approach and advice on startups and running a business are no less valuable. Most of all, besides a chef, he is a great business man and the approach he takes when addressing his market could easily parallel a startup. Some of the major common blunders that individuals find themselves in is creating a product that does not speak to a market. He had said in the interview that if his customers demanded fish and chips diner, he would turn the restaurant in a fish and chips diner and would be perfectly content with dropping the finer dining aspects of the business.
In terms of entrepreneurialism, sometimes that best advice or ideas can come from other trades and then making them applicable to you. If you cannot see that, then you might have a little trouble yourself when it comes time to create a start-up.
In terms of entrepreneurialism, sometimes that best advice or ideas can come from other trades and then making them applicable to you. If you cannot see that, then you might have a little trouble yourself when it comes time to create a start-up.
General purpose business advice is easy to find though. Common sense about giving customers what they want etc...
I just prefer the more specific articles on Hacker News that you don't see elsewhere.
Point made and believe me I am usually one to question the relevancy of articles and topics to HN, but in this case the video impacted my perspective on the day, and therefore I supported it. The point about giving customers what they want was to show its relevancy, not the depth of the interview.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
This qualifies.
On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
This qualifies.
Just to turn that around a bit, who's to say that the people voting things up are actually "good hackers"? You? Me? PG? Their karma score? (I'm quite dubious of the latter).
Well, there's a difference between what gets submitted and what gets voted up. The original comment was "How is this Hacker News?".
He's a hacker with food. I had Momofuku Saam last week while in NYC and it was amazing.
Hackers are not limited to working with computers. What do you think chefs do in the kitchen when working on new dishes? It's hacking.
I drove by a neurosurgeon once called Dr. Hacker. ... google ...
http://www.oregonneurosurgery.com/dr_hacker.html
http://www.oregonneurosurgery.com/dr_hacker.html
Ok, there is so much hatred in this line.
I am a vegetarian. I like good food, but most of my friends will most likely differ with regards to what they consider as "good food". But you see, I love those great conversations that can happen only over a dinner table, overlooking a busy bustling street full of new york, or by the window on the ocean front watching the sun move into the sea.
Some of us can not eat non-vegetarian food because we were brought up like that(I grew up in India). Some people think that it takes a lot of discipline and political liberalism to be a vegetarian. Fact is I cannot bring myself to swallow a piece of meat anymore than a regular American can bring herself to eat dog meat or grass hopper fries. I will throw up, it has nothing to do with conscious thought, its faar past that point.
Most of the time, when a bunch of people go to a dinner at a restaurant, I always tag along. I almost never have an opinion as to which place to go to, because I know I wont like the food anyway. But I tag along. And yes, I will ask this chef dude to pick out the meat, not out of dis-respect for what he does, but because I want to be with my friends, because I love conversations and sunsets.