Ask HN: Should I leave my job at a FAANG to pursue a PhD?
24 comments
Money is worth so much earlier in your life. Get setup. Like a house and some good savings. Enough to retire on.
Once you are there life will be so much easier. Then do what ever you like.
Once you are there life will be so much easier. Then do what ever you like.
Be careful: a PhD is a lot of admin, grant applications, grunt work and fixing other people's problems. The amount of actual research or teaching varries a lot by school and team. It might be worth saving up some leave and seeing if you can do 2 weeks of work experience in a lab before you quit and commit to 3+ years...
I would move into a research engineer position at a well respected company. Like FAANG. From there you can move into more industrial research oriented roles. Avoid a PhD unless you have gotten into a top program, or you have a specific research goal already in mind.
Is this possible without having a PhD? Most positions I've seen seem to have this as a pre-requisite
It might be feasible to do a Masters by Research, get such a job and then upgrade to a PhD on the job.
There are other options, e.g. Microsoft, some large multi-nationals or even national research organisations. In the latter, it might be possible to start in a technician role and then progress to a PhD part-time.
A significant number of PhDs end up working hand to mouth in insecure, menial temporary adjunct positions.
I personally know a number in that position.
I personally know a number in that position.
DISCLAIMER: I've never been a graduate student, so I don't know how it works.
However, the question going through my head as I read this…
why would you leave your fantastic job situation for this? Why not just study the things you're passionate about on your own time AND earn an amazing living?
Keep a blog about what you're learning and write there for impact?
Keep your money instead of spending it on tuition? (if that's a thing in your country, it sure is here!!)
Save yourself the trouble of a potentially bad relationship with a supervisor, and communicate with other experts in that field of study?
Student debt SUCKS. I'm still paying for college tuition more than 10 years after my tuition payments started. My major (business management) was absolutely NOT worth the amount of tuition I'm saddled with paying for it.
You have fantastic earning power. Keep it. Life isn't ALL about money, but you can save yourself a lot of hassle (and potentially, money!) skipping the PhD track.
ADDED: I make a good living now by having studied things that were not part of a degree track, and just doing it on my own.
However, the question going through my head as I read this…
why would you leave your fantastic job situation for this? Why not just study the things you're passionate about on your own time AND earn an amazing living?
Keep a blog about what you're learning and write there for impact?
Keep your money instead of spending it on tuition? (if that's a thing in your country, it sure is here!!)
Save yourself the trouble of a potentially bad relationship with a supervisor, and communicate with other experts in that field of study?
Student debt SUCKS. I'm still paying for college tuition more than 10 years after my tuition payments started. My major (business management) was absolutely NOT worth the amount of tuition I'm saddled with paying for it.
You have fantastic earning power. Keep it. Life isn't ALL about money, but you can save yourself a lot of hassle (and potentially, money!) skipping the PhD track.
ADDED: I make a good living now by having studied things that were not part of a degree track, and just doing it on my own.
One of the issues is creative energy. When most of my day is spent working on working for my job, I find it really hard to do research on things I'm interested in.
I'm in a rather demanding team with an on-call rotation, so I'm not finding it possible to invest in actually doing my own things unless I overwork myself.
How did it work out for you?
I'm in a rather demanding team with an on-call rotation, so I'm not finding it possible to invest in actually doing my own things unless I overwork myself.
How did it work out for you?
Getting up earlier.
Watching a little less TV.
Having a long view, rather thinking I could become competent in ______ in weeks, but instead months or years. (and being CONTENT with that)
It's not fast. It's not easy. It has worked for me.
Watching a little less TV.
Having a long view, rather thinking I could become competent in ______ in weeks, but instead months or years. (and being CONTENT with that)
It's not fast. It's not easy. It has worked for me.
Is a 4 day week possible? Many Western European countries have laws that legally entitle you to ask for 4 days weeks (even if they say no they can't penalise you for it) and most tech companies are open to it. Go down to 4 days and you might have more energy.
Also look into moving to a less demanding team. If you're happy with your income you don't need to work crazy hard and push yourself in work. Move to a chill team, get a 4 day week and you'll have more time and energy to do research yourself.
Also look into moving to a less demanding team. If you're happy with your income you don't need to work crazy hard and push yourself in work. Move to a chill team, get a 4 day week and you'll have more time and energy to do research yourself.
It is possible, but in my case it would make it quite hard to work with my current team.
The idea of going to a more chill team never occurred to me, but it does sound like a solution. Then I could maybe receive similar compensation but allow more time for studying on my own.
The idea of going to a more chill team never occurred to me, but it does sound like a solution. Then I could maybe receive similar compensation but allow more time for studying on my own.
Stay at the FAANG, at least until COVID leaves the world news.
Study on your own time.
Study on your own time.
Do it.
Keep in mind that there are a lot of PhDs that can't get jobs in their field of work or are only partially employed. I worked with a guy who thought the time he used to get his PhD was a waste. He was the network admin for the company.
I have also known people that had multiple degrees and loved every minute they spent studying the subjects they loved.
If you want to get a PhD, do it because it's something you want to do. Having all the material things in the world is worthless if you are miserable. Look at the situation realistically and decide if having a PhD is really something you want and you are ok living a student's life for a while then go for it.
If you have the skills that the job market values then a few years in academia will not hurt you too much. Have fun.
I have also known people that had multiple degrees and loved every minute they spent studying the subjects they loved.
If you want to get a PhD, do it because it's something you want to do. Having all the material things in the world is worthless if you are miserable. Look at the situation realistically and decide if having a PhD is really something you want and you are ok living a student's life for a while then go for it.
If you have the skills that the job market values then a few years in academia will not hurt you too much. Have fun.
I have never had the experience of working for any of the FAANGs. But I have worked for several multinational big-name corporations. Much later in my career I decided to take a sabatical and do a PhD in software engineering. I expected it to take 3 years, it took 8 (some of it on part-time basis). I studied and live in Australia. The situation in California USA is reputed to be far more advantageous. From what you write, I suspect you are in Germany. The top German universities have very high standards and a focus on mathematical rigour in most areas of software research.
My observations are:
Teaching is hard work. Preparing lesson plans, drafting assignments and exams, marking assignments and exams and completing the myriad of bureacracy. You can easily spend 2-3 times more time on it outside of the classroom. And you don't get paid for those hours, only the "contact hours".
If you persue an interest from your working career experiences, it might be very hard to get a surpervisor who can relate to the industry side of your work.
Popular research areas form cliques. Negative results are buried, so it's easy to go down the wrong path because it looks obvious, yet nobody has written it up so it's like a bear trap you walk into.
You are expected to publish several papers in "important journals / conferences", the very same ones that seasoned academics have trouble getting published in. Yet, you as a newcomer, are expected to meet the same standards. You might be lucky if your supervisor is well regarded in your field. But second authorship is often not highly regarded.
Publish or Perish - starts from your PhD days and continues until you retire if you choose to go down the path of academia.
There is a great deal of competition for academic jobs, so the chances employment in that area are dismal.
You actually diminish your employment prospects if you decide to return to industry. Being "over-qualified" becomes a very real issue.
Have been an adjunct lecturer (part-time before starting my PhD and during it). It's not well paid for the hours you actually work. And you can have your courses dropped with just a few days notice if enrollment targets are not met. You have to remember that you develop the course material on your own time and without getting paid for it.
Of course, there are existing course materials. The tenured academics tend to grab those courses because they require far less work. The adjuncts are left with the courses that nobody else will touch.
Oh, last but not least, between 50% and 70% of PhDs are abandonded. ABD: "All But Dissertation" is an all too common outcome.
BUT, there are positives:
It is an amazing personal development adventure. As difficult as it is, once you graduate you will feel that it was all worth it for the experience and sense of accomplishment.
As long as you research something that you have a strong interest in, then you scratch a very personal itch and become the world expert (at least for a short-time) on that topic.
My observations are:
Teaching is hard work. Preparing lesson plans, drafting assignments and exams, marking assignments and exams and completing the myriad of bureacracy. You can easily spend 2-3 times more time on it outside of the classroom. And you don't get paid for those hours, only the "contact hours".
If you persue an interest from your working career experiences, it might be very hard to get a surpervisor who can relate to the industry side of your work.
Popular research areas form cliques. Negative results are buried, so it's easy to go down the wrong path because it looks obvious, yet nobody has written it up so it's like a bear trap you walk into.
You are expected to publish several papers in "important journals / conferences", the very same ones that seasoned academics have trouble getting published in. Yet, you as a newcomer, are expected to meet the same standards. You might be lucky if your supervisor is well regarded in your field. But second authorship is often not highly regarded.
Publish or Perish - starts from your PhD days and continues until you retire if you choose to go down the path of academia.
There is a great deal of competition for academic jobs, so the chances employment in that area are dismal.
You actually diminish your employment prospects if you decide to return to industry. Being "over-qualified" becomes a very real issue.
Have been an adjunct lecturer (part-time before starting my PhD and during it). It's not well paid for the hours you actually work. And you can have your courses dropped with just a few days notice if enrollment targets are not met. You have to remember that you develop the course material on your own time and without getting paid for it.
Of course, there are existing course materials. The tenured academics tend to grab those courses because they require far less work. The adjuncts are left with the courses that nobody else will touch.
Oh, last but not least, between 50% and 70% of PhDs are abandonded. ABD: "All But Dissertation" is an all too common outcome.
BUT, there are positives:
It is an amazing personal development adventure. As difficult as it is, once you graduate you will feel that it was all worth it for the experience and sense of accomplishment.
As long as you research something that you have a strong interest in, then you scratch a very personal itch and become the world expert (at least for a short-time) on that topic.
All of what you say is true. One thing I want to add though, is that Ph.ds are abundant these days. Because of this, there are certain jobs in industry where you do something similar to research, that require a Ph.d.
Look into FIRE. If you play your cards right, you can retire by 35. Do a PhD then.
I'm sorry to ask, but I'm out of work and I've never had an interview at a FAANG company:
I have 2 years of work experience as a software engineer and a bachelor (B-/7.2) + master in computer science (A-/8.1). I've applied for years to FAANG companies through their website. Could we have a chat and see if I'm fit for being referred to the FAANG company you worked at? My email is in my profile.
--- More info (albeit redundant) ---
I applied through all the websites, but have always been rejected at the resume stage. I feel it's insane since I:
* Can build web applications in React/NodeJS
* Know a thing or two about web exploitation
* Know a thing or two about binary exploitation (mostly IDA), I once reversed 90% of a whole binary and ported it in C. That 90% compiled to exactly the same x86-64 assembly.
* Have built iOS applications in the past
* Have done hobby projects in: C++ (doing that now, see my Ask HN [1], I'm building something that requires speed), C, C#/Unity3D, PHP, Bash, R, JS, Python, Objective-C and Java (one with OpenGL).
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26046054
I have 2 years of work experience as a software engineer and a bachelor (B-/7.2) + master in computer science (A-/8.1). I've applied for years to FAANG companies through their website. Could we have a chat and see if I'm fit for being referred to the FAANG company you worked at? My email is in my profile.
--- More info (albeit redundant) ---
I applied through all the websites, but have always been rejected at the resume stage. I feel it's insane since I:
* Can build web applications in React/NodeJS
* Know a thing or two about web exploitation
* Know a thing or two about binary exploitation (mostly IDA), I once reversed 90% of a whole binary and ported it in C. That 90% compiled to exactly the same x86-64 assembly.
* Have built iOS applications in the past
* Have done hobby projects in: C++ (doing that now, see my Ask HN [1], I'm building something that requires speed), C, C#/Unity3D, PHP, Bash, R, JS, Python, Objective-C and Java (one with OpenGL).
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26046054
If I were in your position I wouldn't be targeting a FAANG job in the circumstances. Those are very sought after, highly competitive, the whole interview process takes months etc. Plus you won't be in a strong negotiating position, being out of work and all. I would just apply to many soft. eng positions that are around you and of interest to you.
My raw thoughts
phd in systems engineering is inherently unnecessary unless you want to spend time in academia.
This is my opinion with first hand experience working on a phD and working in a FAANG.
If you want to go deep into systems and make something at it - I would recommend a PhD in.a top tier university like Berkeley otherwise it's not worth leaving your job. A phd from a top tier university is required for a good academic career.
If it's just interesting work-- You can work on far more interesting systems work if you navigate to the right team in google for example.
PhD is a 5 year ish commitment and it's better to do it early in your life if you want to go to academia.
PhD dropout rates are also high, it's okay here too there's a lot that you learn anyway and the FAANG company is not going anywhere :). They're always happy to have you back...
I would wrap this up by reading this article by Prof. DesJardin How to be a good graduate student
https://heibeck.freeshell.org/Grad_Advice/how2b/how.2b.html
Hope this helps
phd in systems engineering is inherently unnecessary unless you want to spend time in academia.
This is my opinion with first hand experience working on a phD and working in a FAANG.
If you want to go deep into systems and make something at it - I would recommend a PhD in.a top tier university like Berkeley otherwise it's not worth leaving your job. A phd from a top tier university is required for a good academic career.
If it's just interesting work-- You can work on far more interesting systems work if you navigate to the right team in google for example.
PhD is a 5 year ish commitment and it's better to do it early in your life if you want to go to academia.
PhD dropout rates are also high, it's okay here too there's a lot that you learn anyway and the FAANG company is not going anywhere :). They're always happy to have you back...
I would wrap this up by reading this article by Prof. DesJardin How to be a good graduate student
https://heibeck.freeshell.org/Grad_Advice/how2b/how.2b.html
Hope this helps
Thank you for this response. You went through options in both sides of the fence and that's something I wanted to hear.
I was considering a PhD in ETH or EPFL. Going deep is mostly what I've been thinking. Actually getting an understanding and contributing to the field is more important to me than just working on something more interesting. My current job is already on something interesting but the actual work I end up doing is on the surface level, often avoiding any kind of innovation to minimize the risk. The time I can spend on learning is also way more limited than what I could get if I was doing dedicated research.
In the end, I'm not sure if I want to end up in academia. It's hard to know if something is a fit without trying. The article you linked is a very helpful sample of what to expect.
I was considering a PhD in ETH or EPFL. Going deep is mostly what I've been thinking. Actually getting an understanding and contributing to the field is more important to me than just working on something more interesting. My current job is already on something interesting but the actual work I end up doing is on the surface level, often avoiding any kind of innovation to minimize the risk. The time I can spend on learning is also way more limited than what I could get if I was doing dedicated research.
In the end, I'm not sure if I want to end up in academia. It's hard to know if something is a fit without trying. The article you linked is a very helpful sample of what to expect.
I'm a PhD candidate and about to go to FAANG after graduation. If you are confident that after your PhD you can get a top-tier job in academia, like really top-tier, where you wouldn't worry much about money, hiring outstanding graduate students and getting enough industrial resources, then that's surely a nice option.
Otherwise, things can be quite undesirable IMHO. I've seen friends at lower-ranked schools struggling with getting money, hiring good students and doing things that industry cares about. Things are unfair at that point.
Otherwise, things can be quite undesirable IMHO. I've seen friends at lower-ranked schools struggling with getting money, hiring good students and doing things that industry cares about. Things are unfair at that point.
Last May I started working in a FAANG in western Europe as my first job out of university. Considering the fact that I'm from southeast Europe, the salary and working conditions are amazing, especially for a first job. There's also a lot of promises for career development. At 24, I have the financial freedom to do whatever I want, disregarding covid 19.
I have this itch however which is telling me that this is not what I want after all. Just before getting this job, I was doing my diploma thesis on a framework for creating thread-safe trees. I absolutely adored the process of research and creating something new for the sake of showing that it can be done. Throughout the process, I had to also make presentations of my ideas and concepts to people of different backgrounds, coming very close to teaching and I also felt extremely content while doing it. In general, it felt like an academic career is my calling.
Unfortunately, having heard a lot about the working conditions in PhDs and how hard they can be if there's a bad relationship with a supervisor, I decided to take the opportunity of getting a good job instead of a PhD in parallel systems.
I feel like I'm in a 'the grass is always greener on the other side' situation and I would like some opinions from people who actually did a PhD to get a feel of what it's like. Did you have the opportunity to create something of your own? Was it easy to actually get a teaching position afterwards? Was the investment in years worth it after all?