Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?(aeon.co)
aeon.co
Why is the deathbed perspective considered so valuable?
https://aeon.co/essays/why-is-the-deathbed-perspective-considered-so-valuable
155 comments
Deathbeds are where people have maximum experience and low incentive to lie. Nothing magical. Louis XIV saying "I loved war too much" on his deathbed gives a perspective to his life achievements.
People lie. On their deathbeds with the sense of impending finality they will do their damndest to come up with anything at all to feel better. Lie to God (I'll convert! I'll be a better person!), lie to their spouse (I was always faithful, and always loved you!), lie to themselves (It's not that bad! I'll live.)
Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exceptional efforts even animals put out when mortally threatened. The burst of energy and struggle seems like it would be epic. Including struggling with the truth.
Pack any situation with emotion and adrenaline, you'll get world-class mental gymnastics. Look at the exceptional efforts even animals put out when mortally threatened. The burst of energy and struggle seems like it would be epic. Including struggling with the truth.
People lie as in "some people lie". That sounds like a narcissist what you are describing there.
All people lie: deceit is part of being human. Robert L. Trivers has much to say about this. See for example Trivers' book "Deceit and Self-Deception: Fooling Yourself the Better to Fool Others".
https://www.amazon.com/Deceit-Self-Deception-Fooling-Yoursel...
https://www.amazon.com/Deceit-Self-Deception-Fooling-Yoursel...
"All people lie" is such a dangerous mindset. Of course it's true, if you apply the right semantics. But it's simply faux-philosophical when out of qualifying context.
There are many actions which you might call "lying", including self-deception and politeness, but which are pretty far from the deliberate verbal deception which is generally associated with the word. If you want to understand "lying" in a broad sense, then you should definitely clarify that people lie with different motivations, methods and impacts.
It's just such a trope for narcisstic people to say "all people lie, at least I admit it to myself".
There are many actions which you might call "lying", including self-deception and politeness, but which are pretty far from the deliberate verbal deception which is generally associated with the word. If you want to understand "lying" in a broad sense, then you should definitely clarify that people lie with different motivations, methods and impacts.
It's just such a trope for narcisstic people to say "all people lie, at least I admit it to myself".
Some people lie like they breathe, it’s automatic, and doesn’t have any meaning. It’s not meant to be malicious.
I agree and I do know several people like that. It does have the intent of propping up the reality they live in but it is inconsistent and quite laughable to be honest. I find another type of liars a bit more dangerous, the kind that can put a mask of sincerity and when they can take advantage they do lie horribly.
My point was that some people lie, others tell the truth and in the face of death where inexistence is next door, only the narcissists would probably lie to leave a grandiose legacy, the rest, I think they have no incentive to do so.
Does the intent really matter?
It matters, in the same way intent matters when you cut somebody with a blade. Was it attempted murder? Self-defense? Carelessness? Accident? Surgery?
Lies, similarly, are fundamentally destructive - a lie is a piece of invalid data that corrupts, to smaller or greater extent, the minds of everyone who come in contact with it. Incorporating a lie in your reasoning moves you further from accurately perceiving reality. Sometimes, very rarely, a lie may be justified - the best of available options, even accounting for second-order effects. Usually, it isn't. But it matters whether the lie was accidental, good-faith, attempt at poisoning someone's mind, or wanton disregard for peoples' ability to grasp reality.
Lies, similarly, are fundamentally destructive - a lie is a piece of invalid data that corrupts, to smaller or greater extent, the minds of everyone who come in contact with it. Incorporating a lie in your reasoning moves you further from accurately perceiving reality. Sometimes, very rarely, a lie may be justified - the best of available options, even accounting for second-order effects. Usually, it isn't. But it matters whether the lie was accidental, good-faith, attempt at poisoning someone's mind, or wanton disregard for peoples' ability to grasp reality.
I would hope lies to protect another person from harm are allowable.
We suspect an enemy of the revolution is being harbored in hour house. Are you hiding this person? (forgive the preposterous example, but I hope you get my intent). It could be someone hiding from a jealous lover, someone hiding from loan sharks, etc.
We suspect an enemy of the revolution is being harbored in hour house. Are you hiding this person? (forgive the preposterous example, but I hope you get my intent). It could be someone hiding from a jealous lover, someone hiding from loan sharks, etc.
That's why I mentioned surgery at the end of my comparison with blade cuts. Much like cutting into a body is traumatic for it, but is sometimes require to save it, sometimes the ethical benefits of a lie far outweigh the costs. Yours is a very good example.
There are also more fuzzy ones. Since I mentioned medicine: there's an ongoing discussion in the medical community as to if and when lies by omission are OK - is there a point to informing the patient about something they can do nothing about, when if they learn about it, it would cause them great amount of emotional distress? Caring for health doesn't mean just servicing the body like a mechanic, but also catering for person's emotional well-being.
The point I was trying to make is that lies, by default, are bad things (much like being cut by a blade). Intent, care and consequences are what can make lies very bad, or - sometimes - good.
There are also more fuzzy ones. Since I mentioned medicine: there's an ongoing discussion in the medical community as to if and when lies by omission are OK - is there a point to informing the patient about something they can do nothing about, when if they learn about it, it would cause them great amount of emotional distress? Caring for health doesn't mean just servicing the body like a mechanic, but also catering for person's emotional well-being.
The point I was trying to make is that lies, by default, are bad things (much like being cut by a blade). Intent, care and consequences are what can make lies very bad, or - sometimes - good.
Growing up in Church, not lying was a big issue. 10 Commandment and all.
Caused a lot of heartache for a lot of people. Met lots of missionaries who Preached in extremely bad countries and situations.
Quite annoyed to find out it was a translation issue.
You don’t lie then testify against people. Which is a highly specific and malicious sort of lie.
Quite annoyed to find out it was a translation issue.
You don’t lie then testify against people. Which is a highly specific and malicious sort of lie.
Not being Murdered is one level.
Did you do the dishes is another.
Have kids. Did you eat chocolate bar? No!!!! So how did the chocolate get all over your face?
Did you do the dishes is another.
Have kids. Did you eat chocolate bar? No!!!! So how did the chocolate get all over your face?
Of course the intent matters. There’s quite a difference between a mother in a warzone holding their kid and saying “it’s going to be alright” to assuage their fears and Bernie Madoff saying he was going to invest people’s money judiciously.
> Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? --to speak the truth and to pay your debts --no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition.
Intent very much matters. It's right there at the beginning of the reading on the topic. (The Republic, Book I)
Intent very much matters. It's right there at the beginning of the reading on the topic. (The Republic, Book I)
Nice example, I remember that from Ethics back in college. But there's lots of Greeks that would say Yes! Give them their weapons.
See, you have no right to decide another's state of mind is 'not right'. That's taking their agency from them, treating them like an incompetent child. Like trying to 'murder their Self' or some such.
You can say for instance "I know where they are but you're upset. Can we talk about this before you do something you'll regret?"
See, you have no right to decide another's state of mind is 'not right'. That's taking their agency from them, treating them like an incompetent child. Like trying to 'murder their Self' or some such.
You can say for instance "I know where they are but you're upset. Can we talk about this before you do something you'll regret?"
It can.
If it’s meant to hurt. Then that’s a bad person.
Otherwise it’s a personality flaw that needs to be addressed. Like the “pull my finger uncle”
It’s very troublesome regardless.
If it’s meant to hurt. Then that’s a bad person.
Otherwise it’s a personality flaw that needs to be addressed. Like the “pull my finger uncle”
It’s very troublesome regardless.
Just quoting Dr. House
I don't think getting someone's perspective when they're actually on their deathbed is particularly interesting.
The point of the deathbed perspective is that imagining you're looking back on your life from your deathbed can help you figure out what you find important now.
It's trying to get a different perspective on your future, looking at it from another angle.
The point of the deathbed perspective is that imagining you're looking back on your life from your deathbed can help you figure out what you find important now.
It's trying to get a different perspective on your future, looking at it from another angle.
I agree that this is the goal. The problem is that the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life. All of which tells me that how I spend my time today is irrelevant. A long run perspective most definitely does not tell you what really matters to you.
Yeah, I think deathbed is the part of the issue because it distracts from the goal. Maybe a better exercise might be "Imagine yourself in the (distant?) future, while you're still healthy. What would you want that life to look like?".
Imagining things is never the same as facing a finality that has been ingrained throughout your life in your psyche.
You can't accurately imagine being old until you're old. You can't accurately imagine being right at the edge of life until you're there. It's like imagining how you'll feel at the end of a movie that wasn't filmed yet, or what the last block of a blockchain will look like before being close to it. When you're there and have the power of retrospective it's easier to have a final perspective, and even easier to express it since the concept of consequence no longer exists for you.
On one hand you have the full experience of your life so it's easy to draw the line of what was important. On the other hand this never takes into account how many of those "bad" decisions got you where you are now. So the deathbed perspective is the individual's assessment on what were the high and low points of their life, after computing the whole equation. Like deciding which block in the blockchain you're most proud of, it's only possible once you went through all of it.
You can't accurately imagine being old until you're old. You can't accurately imagine being right at the edge of life until you're there. It's like imagining how you'll feel at the end of a movie that wasn't filmed yet, or what the last block of a blockchain will look like before being close to it. When you're there and have the power of retrospective it's easier to have a final perspective, and even easier to express it since the concept of consequence no longer exists for you.
On one hand you have the full experience of your life so it's easy to draw the line of what was important. On the other hand this never takes into account how many of those "bad" decisions got you where you are now. So the deathbed perspective is the individual's assessment on what were the high and low points of their life, after computing the whole equation. Like deciding which block in the blockchain you're most proud of, it's only possible once you went through all of it.
That's completely missing the point of the exercise. You don't need to accurately imagine it. The point of the exercise is to figure out what you want in life now, by giving you a different perspective.
> That's completely missing the point of the exercise
No it's not, you're just too invested in your example to realize there is no point to the exercise you proposed. A model where up to 90% of data (the "unexperienced" part of your life depending on age) is imagined and by definition inaccurate can't be used for any determination.
> The point of the exercise is to figure out what you want in life now
That's the point of the exercise you proposed, very different from a deathbed perspective, and one I believe couldn't work as described.
The deathbed perspective is an exercise of taking your entire life experiences and distilling them to get a concrete core as seen from the "final checkpoint". The key is knowing that there will be no future experiences to alter the result, and that makes the determination as final and as accurate as it can ever reasonably be. It's not a decision making tool, it can't be used to alter the future. It's a conclusion, a punchline.
But if you want to see what's important now that's a decision, a seed for your future, and it's open to change and evolution. This cannot be more different from a real deathbed perspective. So taking this decision by imagining one of infinite possibilities of your future up to your distant deathbed makes no sense. Your subjectivity will lead you into imagining a completely different future every time, and getting a different perspective and decision.
That girl you like? Deciding she's "what you want now" is just a matter of imagining a future deathbed where she was key to your life happiness. Or maybe it's that job... Or something else entirely. When you're 20 or 30 your "old age" deathbed could have you a billionaire, homeless, or anything you can imagine. An imagined, relatively random, and distant future outcome can't help you decide what's best in the present more than flipping a coin will.
At best you can imagine you are now on your deathbed and go through the exercise to take a decision as if it were the conclusion. I still think it's pointless because imagining you're on your deathbed is like imagining a new color.
No it's not, you're just too invested in your example to realize there is no point to the exercise you proposed. A model where up to 90% of data (the "unexperienced" part of your life depending on age) is imagined and by definition inaccurate can't be used for any determination.
> The point of the exercise is to figure out what you want in life now
That's the point of the exercise you proposed, very different from a deathbed perspective, and one I believe couldn't work as described.
The deathbed perspective is an exercise of taking your entire life experiences and distilling them to get a concrete core as seen from the "final checkpoint". The key is knowing that there will be no future experiences to alter the result, and that makes the determination as final and as accurate as it can ever reasonably be. It's not a decision making tool, it can't be used to alter the future. It's a conclusion, a punchline.
But if you want to see what's important now that's a decision, a seed for your future, and it's open to change and evolution. This cannot be more different from a real deathbed perspective. So taking this decision by imagining one of infinite possibilities of your future up to your distant deathbed makes no sense. Your subjectivity will lead you into imagining a completely different future every time, and getting a different perspective and decision.
That girl you like? Deciding she's "what you want now" is just a matter of imagining a future deathbed where she was key to your life happiness. Or maybe it's that job... Or something else entirely. When you're 20 or 30 your "old age" deathbed could have you a billionaire, homeless, or anything you can imagine. An imagined, relatively random, and distant future outcome can't help you decide what's best in the present more than flipping a coin will.
At best you can imagine you are now on your deathbed and go through the exercise to take a decision as if it were the conclusion. I still think it's pointless because imagining you're on your deathbed is like imagining a new color.
the more I think about being on my deathbed (or death, or read obituaries, etc.) the more I realize I won't care how I spent my life
It's why the "bus factor" is such a weird concept. If I get hit by a bus then I guarantee that I will not care in the slightest if anyone else knows how to run the TPS reports. Same if I win the lottery!
It's why the "bus factor" is such a weird concept. If I get hit by a bus then I guarantee that I will not care in the slightest if anyone else knows how to run the TPS reports. Same if I win the lottery!
But you will care if someone else wins the lottery and you're stuck dealing with their project after.
Big one for me is having small children and no one that can look after them I die.
Thought of them going into state care is quite motivating.
Thought of them going into state care is quite motivating.
[deleted]
There's less and different incentive to lie, which helps make it a potentially interesting perspective. Though there is also less disincentive to lie, as repercussions of being found out won't be experienced. IDK how it nets out except that it's still probably different.
In contrast to humans, many animals do not put out extraordinary efforts when they are dying of old age or serious disease. Ever see the videos of the sick old Cape Buffalo lying down while lions munch its rear?
There is plenty of incentive to lie on your deathbed. A lot of people spend their entire lives worrying about how they’ll be remembered.
[deleted]
But crucially, the incentives are different than those people have in the middle of their lives.
Most people's usual incentives lead to them optimizing for the short-to-medium term future, i.e. the next couple of months or years.
People on their deathbed will optimize either for the extremely short term (finishing this conversation) or the extremely long term (the last chance to affect how they'll be remembered).
This suggests that if people lie on their death bed, they'll lie in different ways than ordinarily. Even if you can't take deathbed statements as unvarnished truth, their differences from everyday statements can be revealing.
Most people's usual incentives lead to them optimizing for the short-to-medium term future, i.e. the next couple of months or years.
People on their deathbed will optimize either for the extremely short term (finishing this conversation) or the extremely long term (the last chance to affect how they'll be remembered).
This suggests that if people lie on their death bed, they'll lie in different ways than ordinarily. Even if you can't take deathbed statements as unvarnished truth, their differences from everyday statements can be revealing.
For the dying, caring about other's perception is a luxury. For the living, it is a necessity. Any incentive to lie on your death bed is irrationally self imposed, which is not to say that it doesn't happen but that it doesn't have to.
I'm very curious about your assumption that dying people have low incentive to lie. How do you figure?
It seems as if nearing the moment of death might make people desperate to represent themselves as better people, more noble than their lived experiences might have shown them to be.
I certainly have ideals to which I fail to live up, and while dying I might express those ideal to those around me, since observing my life may not have made those ideals obvious to observers.
Lying might or might not even enter into it, but I also don't see any reason why dying people wouldn't lie just as often as those who don't realize they're dying.
It seems as if nearing the moment of death might make people desperate to represent themselves as better people, more noble than their lived experiences might have shown them to be.
I certainly have ideals to which I fail to live up, and while dying I might express those ideal to those around me, since observing my life may not have made those ideals obvious to observers.
Lying might or might not even enter into it, but I also don't see any reason why dying people wouldn't lie just as often as those who don't realize they're dying.
For example, a dying person may say: "I regret every day I spent at work; the career was absolutely not worth it; I wish I would have spent more time with my friends and family" without being worried about potential impact on their future employment.
Dying can give you the ultimate form of freedom of speech, when you are also free from the consequences.
I agree that a person who cares about how they will be remembered has an incentive to lie. But is it greater than before that?
Dying can give you the ultimate form of freedom of speech, when you are also free from the consequences.
I agree that a person who cares about how they will be remembered has an incentive to lie. But is it greater than before that?
That seems to be highly dependent on your own psychological state and disposition …
To me it seems just as plausible that you don’t really want to think of all the bad times, all the bad decisions you made. Your hypothesis requires a certain point of view that a dying person doesn’t necessarily have.
To me it seems just as plausible that you don’t really want to think of all the bad times, all the bad decisions you made. Your hypothesis requires a certain point of view that a dying person doesn’t necessarily have.
In that example, the statement is both useless and also possibly still dishonest.
While I might be free in that context of worrying about future employers, I might also feel heavily constrained by the presence of my family and friends. How many people would feel free enough to say the following? "If I had spent more time with my family, they would have driven me absolutely crazy. I got so much more respect and fulfillment as a person at work than I ever did with friends and family. My only real regret is that I left that one job early to spend more time with my kids when they were teens, and they didn't even want to spend any time with me, and I missed that job."
Surely there are people who feel that way, but that kind of honesty in that context is not met kindly, so instead everybody says they wish they had spent time with family.
Maybe it's true. Then again, most people who choose to quit their jobs and stay home end up facing money troubles, which doesn't lead to happy times with family, so inasmuch as it's true, it's empty.
I mean, let's say someone suddenly and unexpectedly recovers. Are they going to then, in fact, quit their job and spend all of their time with their family and friends? Is that feasible? Is that actually what they want? Is that actually what their family and friends want?
I think there is generally just as much motivation to lie as there is for any person's entire life, just about different things, or in a different way. For the same reason, too! Most people still care what others think of them, even up to the moment of death.
While I might be free in that context of worrying about future employers, I might also feel heavily constrained by the presence of my family and friends. How many people would feel free enough to say the following? "If I had spent more time with my family, they would have driven me absolutely crazy. I got so much more respect and fulfillment as a person at work than I ever did with friends and family. My only real regret is that I left that one job early to spend more time with my kids when they were teens, and they didn't even want to spend any time with me, and I missed that job."
Surely there are people who feel that way, but that kind of honesty in that context is not met kindly, so instead everybody says they wish they had spent time with family.
Maybe it's true. Then again, most people who choose to quit their jobs and stay home end up facing money troubles, which doesn't lead to happy times with family, so inasmuch as it's true, it's empty.
I mean, let's say someone suddenly and unexpectedly recovers. Are they going to then, in fact, quit their job and spend all of their time with their family and friends? Is that feasible? Is that actually what they want? Is that actually what their family and friends want?
I think there is generally just as much motivation to lie as there is for any person's entire life, just about different things, or in a different way. For the same reason, too! Most people still care what others think of them, even up to the moment of death.
They still lie for emotional reasons. Because of what they want you to remember about them or because setting old scores and what not.
And it is also the time when they are in pain, under influence of various drugs that doctors prescribed to manage pain, confused about where they are, because sickness or injury make them so.
And it is also the time when they are in pain, under influence of various drugs that doctors prescribed to manage pain, confused about where they are, because sickness or injury make them so.
What about this. Ask a person right now, what would they do if the knew they only had a week to live. Or if they had plenty of money and no obligations. This seems to help getting at parts of life they are neglecting. But not everyone is good at hypotheticals. Maybe that's why we put more weight on the deathbed words - the situation is very real?
Yeah, that’s a good point too. We all live in a mental projection of the future, where we have essentially endless time ahead of us. People without the luxury of that illusion usually have insightful things to say.
If I knew I only had a week to live, then I'll max out my credit cards, liquidate my retirement plans, and have a great vacation. This has nothing to do with my values though. I'd rather spend the week working on my antique collections, but the custom parts I need for the next step won't arrive in less than a week if I ordered them today. Those parts are too expensive to pay cash for without saving up for them, since I believe the long run is more than 10 years I'm better off saving up for those parts instead of taking our a loan.
I don't think this necessarily diminishes the importance of the deathbed perspective - many people apply pressure to themselves to seek status or resources far beyond what is required for a fulfilling life, and finding a way do loosen the grip that has on you could be a good thing for many.
That people on their deathbeds do not think of their legacy seems naive. Maybe people realize what's actually important, or maybe people fantasize about impossibilities in an effort to make themselves look good, in contrast to how they lived.
I agree. I was diagnosed with an incurable illness last year and retired after that and I feel much more free to just say whatever I want and not worry about what people think about it.
It's not the overthinking part of this essay that reflects poorly on the field of philosophy. It's the complete lack of interest in evidence.
> For one thing, the status of the (so-called) hindsight bias is contested
Why? Were some seminal studies in hindsight bias overturned? This sounds interesting!
...Oh. No, some other guy thought really hard and decided it doesn't make sense. This must be a philosophy paper.
> For one thing, the status of the (so-called) hindsight bias is contested
Why? Were some seminal studies in hindsight bias overturned? This sounds interesting!
...Oh. No, some other guy thought really hard and decided it doesn't make sense. This must be a philosophy paper.
What is "overanalysis" in this piece?
It seemed a fairly straightforward if slightly controversial position to me. I'm not even a philosophy major.
And as someone who has been near death before I tend to agree with what the author claims. When I thought I was dying I had regrets that in my late twenties I didn't have a family and kids.
Luckily I recovered and have been healthy for 4-5 years since. I'm still not married and don't have kids. Why did I think it was so important when I thought I was dying?
Hard to say but I think because I was terrified of dying, the unknown, and wanted some piece of me to live on into the future. Now that I'm not in that position I realize that I actually don't want kids at least at this point in my life.
And me having kids or not isn't going to change the fact that after I die, hopefully many years from now, I will be completely forgotten in 100 years, probably less. Maybe an old photograph on my grandkids wall. That's true of 99.9% of us.
Your "deathbed perspective" is important but the hackneyed old idea that it's THE true insight into what's important in life is oversold, IMO.
When you think you're dying it terrifies you, I don't care who you are, I've seen enough people go through it that the "I'm not afraid of death" braggadocio is horseshit in almost every case. Your views on life when you're terrified of the unknown are important, sure, but not THE most important, or best insight into what life is.
It seemed a fairly straightforward if slightly controversial position to me. I'm not even a philosophy major.
And as someone who has been near death before I tend to agree with what the author claims. When I thought I was dying I had regrets that in my late twenties I didn't have a family and kids.
Luckily I recovered and have been healthy for 4-5 years since. I'm still not married and don't have kids. Why did I think it was so important when I thought I was dying?
Hard to say but I think because I was terrified of dying, the unknown, and wanted some piece of me to live on into the future. Now that I'm not in that position I realize that I actually don't want kids at least at this point in my life.
And me having kids or not isn't going to change the fact that after I die, hopefully many years from now, I will be completely forgotten in 100 years, probably less. Maybe an old photograph on my grandkids wall. That's true of 99.9% of us.
Your "deathbed perspective" is important but the hackneyed old idea that it's THE true insight into what's important in life is oversold, IMO.
When you think you're dying it terrifies you, I don't care who you are, I've seen enough people go through it that the "I'm not afraid of death" braggadocio is horseshit in almost every case. Your views on life when you're terrified of the unknown are important, sure, but not THE most important, or best insight into what life is.
> My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constraints of life placed upon us by social pressures and resource acquisition, we have an easier time realizing what is actually important.
The most important thing in life today is riding around town in a yellow double decker bus. Tomorrow the most important thing in life is watching Peppa. The day after it’s chocolate.
The most important thing in life today is riding around town in a yellow double decker bus. Tomorrow the most important thing in life is watching Peppa. The day after it’s chocolate.
There's an exercise used in personal growth experiences. They ask "What would you say if you knew you were going to die tomorrow? Who would you say it to?" Then when everyone has thought about it and revealed their choice, they ask "What are you waiting for?"
Of course, it may be hard to figure this out, if tomorrow isn't really your last day. Its easy to fudge and wriggle and decide you don't really have something to say, or don't want to reveal what it might be. It can also be easier to face when asked by a group you are close to, because you don't want to lie to them (even if you would lie to yourself). So it doesn't often yield catharsis. But sometimes it does.
Of course, it may be hard to figure this out, if tomorrow isn't really your last day. Its easy to fudge and wriggle and decide you don't really have something to say, or don't want to reveal what it might be. It can also be easier to face when asked by a group you are close to, because you don't want to lie to them (even if you would lie to yourself). So it doesn't often yield catharsis. But sometimes it does.
As usual, immortality is the solution.
Now you have infinite years of problems... (to paraphraze JWZ)
Yeah, but there's plenty of room in the Hilbert Hotel of regret!
but a bitch ain't one.... sorry I had to, I'll take my downvotes.
> As usual, immortality is the solution.
I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this.
Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.
I’m not sure if you’re joking or not but many people are not when they say this.
Immortality is impossible in this universe given known physics. The use of the word is at best equivocation and a rather desperate self-delusion. Even if we ignore physics the probability of dying by murder or suicide trend towards 1. All of us are contingent and will eventually face our death.
Nothing in physics says it is impossible. The current theory in thermodynamics is that the general arrow of entropy applied to biology is decreasing internal entropy (of the cell or lifeform) at the expense of higher external entropy.
Are you prepared to bet on this?
Are you prepared to bet on this?
Life requires usable external energy to effect that decreasing internal entropy. Usable energy is a finite resource in the universe, what happens when that runs out then? Certain death.
As far as I know, the currently most accepted hypothesis for the universe is that it will reach a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, or heat death[1], which is definitely incompatible with relying on entropy, and life in general.
We have a bit of time to worry about that if we manage to get rid of aging though, I'll give you that !
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
We have a bit of time to worry about that if we manage to get rid of aging though, I'll give you that !
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
Wait, biological immortality is real in our universe. There's jellyfish that literally do not die from old age ever.
> There's jellyfish that literally do not die from old age ever.
"Biological immortality" is an equivocation. Immortality is not dying, "not aging" is not immortality as, for instance, those jellyfish definitely die. Even if we stopped humans biologically aging and cured all diseases the universe will still find a way to kill us even if we sidestep all the causes until the universe itself dies of heat death.
"Biological immortality" is an equivocation. Immortality is not dying, "not aging" is not immortality as, for instance, those jellyfish definitely die. Even if we stopped humans biologically aging and cured all diseases the universe will still find a way to kill us even if we sidestep all the causes until the universe itself dies of heat death.
For a:
- "I should have done X" (regret because X wasn't followed)
there are probably as many:
- "I should not have done X" (regret because X was followed and made things shit)
Even the "should not have worked as hard" would be most likely balanced with others saying: "should not have been as slack or loose at work, and did something important, made some legacy"
In the end, nothing really matters, and the perspective at the deathbed might have hindsight in its favor, but it's equally blind to the consequences of alternatives that weren't followed.
- "I should have done X" (regret because X wasn't followed)
there are probably as many:
- "I should not have done X" (regret because X was followed and made things shit)
Even the "should not have worked as hard" would be most likely balanced with others saying: "should not have been as slack or loose at work, and did something important, made some legacy"
In the end, nothing really matters, and the perspective at the deathbed might have hindsight in its favor, but it's equally blind to the consequences of alternatives that weren't followed.
I am more and more getting irked by the "should not have worked so hard" crowd, or to be more precise, the ones that go "just quit and go backpacking". Great if you're young, wealthy and have a good social safety net (read: rich parents), not so much for the other 99% of the population.
I tried it once, going out of my comfort zone to do the backpacking thing, but it just wasn't for me. I'm not very social, have trouble entertaining myself, and end up spending a ton of money on food, drink and entertainment just to not be alone with my thoughts too much.
I tried it once, going out of my comfort zone to do the backpacking thing, but it just wasn't for me. I'm not very social, have trouble entertaining myself, and end up spending a ton of money on food, drink and entertainment just to not be alone with my thoughts too much.
That seems like valuable perspective. You are not one who likes to be alone with their thoughts too much. What's the version of quit and go backpacking for someone like you?
My brother did the same thing and like you did not enjoy it. He thought it was too boring without another person. I havnt dont it but I'm very comfortable with really limited social contact and live in my own thoughts. If I had two good knees I'd likely take some type of break to try it out.
My brother did the same thing and like you did not enjoy it. He thought it was too boring without another person. I havnt dont it but I'm very comfortable with really limited social contact and live in my own thoughts. If I had two good knees I'd likely take some type of break to try it out.
Agreed. I've travelled a lot with my wife (We've been to 24 countries). I enjoy travelling with someone. A few times, I travelled alone... it's kind of boring alone. There are lots of people who say positive words about travelling alone like "empowering", "liberating"... but I didn't find that at all.
I'm equally as content during my travels if I'm alone or with another person but I do find that going with someone else tends to create stronger memories.
I went to Europe with my father and brother and remember those trips much more than ones I've taken on my own.
I went to Europe with my father and brother and remember those trips much more than ones I've taken on my own.
Quit and keep busy? i.e. quit and volunteer.
I agree. I did it towards the end of 2019 and completely torpedoed my life.
Because of COVID I didn't even get to do much actual hiking or backpacking as I planned; I went out to the west coast and everything shut down basically as soon as I got settled in.
Then I had a couple of deaths in the family due to COVID. The nest egg I had built up for the trip would have been really helpful, but I essentially wasted it to sit in an apartment. Now I'm searching for jobs nowhere close to where I was at because my industry took a massive hit.
Life's a dice roll. Hedge your bets.
Because of COVID I didn't even get to do much actual hiking or backpacking as I planned; I went out to the west coast and everything shut down basically as soon as I got settled in.
Then I had a couple of deaths in the family due to COVID. The nest egg I had built up for the trip would have been really helpful, but I essentially wasted it to sit in an apartment. Now I'm searching for jobs nowhere close to where I was at because my industry took a massive hit.
Life's a dice roll. Hedge your bets.
I must respect your karma, but I'd wager you'd find something you're not expecting if you addressed the social anxiety, addiction, and chatty mind you allude to here (I understand you will probably object to these characterizations).
Some people take the state of their mind as a given and structure their life around that. Others learn that you can change your mind.
My experience is that the latter leads to profound riches. But then, I failed at the former.
Some people take the state of their mind as a given and structure their life around that. Others learn that you can change your mind.
My experience is that the latter leads to profound riches. But then, I failed at the former.
there are a lot of ways to "not work so hard" other than "just quit and go backpacking". I share your utter lack of interest in backpacking. to me, "not work so hard" means picking a good job, but not the most ambitious one possible. it means closing my IDE at 5:30 and finishing that last bug the next day. this leaves me with more time and energy to spend on non-work-related people and activities that I value.
and in a way, I suspect that backpackers and intense travelers have traded one form of "working too hard" for another. "making the most of your youth" is a FOMO perspective. I prefer to focus on appreciating what I already have.
and in a way, I suspect that backpackers and intense travelers have traded one form of "working too hard" for another. "making the most of your youth" is a FOMO perspective. I prefer to focus on appreciating what I already have.
The "I should not have worked as hard" deathbed quote has always bugged me. There are plenty of people who think they could have been more or done more. It's not a perfect example, but there are plenty of "Walter White"s who taught high-school science and think they were capable of so much more.
I find it is happening among some women I know who chose to stay at home and now, as the kids are getting older, are thinking about what they could have been. It's a harder choice than people realize.
I had a friend who said her tombstone would read "She had potential".
I find it is happening among some women I know who chose to stay at home and now, as the kids are getting older, are thinking about what they could have been. It's a harder choice than people realize.
I had a friend who said her tombstone would read "She had potential".
I feel like people often regret not taking the risk to go work (hard) on something they find meaningful.
Not sure if as many regret that they didn't put in the extra hours to get to the next level in a big corporation.
Not sure if as many regret that they didn't put in the extra hours to get to the next level in a big corporation.
I think there are people who do regret not getting to the next big level. They thought they could have been a good (software) architect or director or principal, they thought they could have really made some lasting difference, but instead they were a cog their whole lives.
Success is important, feeling successful is important. It can be hard to be happy with "good enough".
Success is important, feeling successful is important. It can be hard to be happy with "good enough".
Good reading on the topic of doing great work and fulfilling that potential you reference:
http://www.paulgraham.com/hamming.html
Just read it for the first time yesterday and plan on doing so many more times in the future.
http://www.paulgraham.com/hamming.html
Just read it for the first time yesterday and plan on doing so many more times in the future.
"I should not have worked as hard" is an attempt to make people who work too much now to engage more at home. I honestly doubt this is a thing dying people say all that much. Frankly, if they valued their family, they would spend more time with them years before.
Arguably, being "authentic" in many ways covers this
I think it's more of a way to gain perspective on your life now. E.g., imagining what would be important on your deathbed is an exercise that can help you figure out what you think is important in life.
I have a lighter version of this: on your deathbed you'll regret the roads not taken.
If you spend your life as a family person, you might regret not making an impact on the community/the world. If you spend your life chasing impact, you might regret not enjoying family life. If you spend your life chasing money, you might regret either. Etc.
Either way, you'll regret something, so it's not a good source of insights for those who are still alive.
If you spend your life as a family person, you might regret not making an impact on the community/the world. If you spend your life chasing impact, you might regret not enjoying family life. If you spend your life chasing money, you might regret either. Etc.
Either way, you'll regret something, so it's not a good source of insights for those who are still alive.
[deleted]
It shouldn't be overlooked that we tend to romanticize the dying process, probably for our own mental health.
Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent.
A good account from a medical professional on what the end stage of life actually looks like can be found here:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
I was particularly struck by the following comment from one of the readers:
""" My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene.
She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve.
She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then.
The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """
Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent.
A good account from a medical professional on what the end stage of life actually looks like can be found here:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay...
I was particularly struck by the following comment from one of the readers:
""" My grandmother has dementia to the point that she yells and moans the same thing non stop 24 hours a day, including the phrase, “please help me”. This is continuous except for 15 minute patches of sleep here and there as she no longer really sleeps just dozes. She weighs 90 lbs if that and is eggshell fragile screaming when touched due to degenerative muscle tears compounded by arthritis. Her bowels no longer work and she fluctuates between constipation, where the assistants administer a suppository, or she has explosive diarrhea that must be cleaned up which requires moving her excessively and thus more screaming and claims of pain. She is on peritoneal dialysis and has congestive heart failure with a pace maker, prior to loosing all capacities a few months back she was swallowing nitroglycerin like candy and up until she stopped walking entirely my mom was dragging her to doctors and what not. Even then moving was difficult and required wheelchairs and walkers. Her dialysis port is always sore and semi infected despite meticulous hygiene.
She has a raging UTI on a twice monthly basis though she is bathed by attendants and her diaper and garments changed regularly. She is on oxygen though she does not even move about to use oxygen as she can no longer stand nor even muster the strength to hold a sippy cup. She has forgotten how to eat or even swallow and still she is forced to choke down at least 15 pills per day and takes the occasional bite if food which she may stop chewing and allow to fall from her mouth. Her mouth is so dry the pills do not even dissolve when they lodge so she has to be coaxed and coaxed endlessly and given water in a dropper. She has round the clock private care to the tune of a few thousand per month. I had rather this money go to medical research or a non profit hospital. This team also includes a physical therapist which is useless. She is always freezing and has to be by a fireplace or heater or covered in layers of heated blankets so comfort is hard to achieve.
She is moved around like a doll with much ado and her screaming in pain which my mom would claim was from her dementia and not so much pain. Finally after months of this torture on her poor failing little body my mother is now considering hospice care mainly due to the cocktail of pain killers and anti anxiety pills no longer soothe her at all-I really have no clue why it has not stopped her heart. It has been surreal to witness this and I feel so bad for people who do not have the resources or loved ones for even this much relief if relief is what you call it. However I think my grandmother would have never considered euthanasia or absence of life saving measures if given a choice while she was cogent because she had an unhealthy fear of death even then.
The way we view death is really twisted and I fault religious nonsense with a lot of that phobia. Modern medicine, while mostly positive, can be grotesque because it can extend life past a semblance of life. I personally have had a living will made since this despite being young and can only hope we make strides in having physician assisted suicide legalized so people have options. """
Also recommend this article on the kinds of things people actually say on their deathbeds:
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/01/how-do-pe...
It usually doesn't make any kind of discernable sense.
Probably the saddest example:
>They quote a 17-year-old, dying of cancer, distraught because she can’t find the map. “If I could find the map, I could go home! Where’s the map? I want to go home!”
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/01/how-do-pe...
It usually doesn't make any kind of discernable sense.
Probably the saddest example:
>They quote a 17-year-old, dying of cancer, distraught because she can’t find the map. “If I could find the map, I could go home! Where’s the map? I want to go home!”
The comment is about somebody way past their last words: they would have died a long time ago, if not for this artificial prolongation of chemical process called life.
If people are allowed to die, they will have last words, and will then die when their body on its own is not able to sustain process of life.
If people are allowed to die, they will have last words, and will then die when their body on its own is not able to sustain process of life.
> Your last words likely won't be wise, witty, or even coherent.
I don't remember the last words my dad said before he passed. We had some irrelevant chitchat about my daily life, and I got him something to drink or similar.
But as I left that evening and we said good night, he reached out and we shook hands, something we almost never did.
And in that moment, the few seconds as we shook hands in silence and just looked at each other, I felt a deep, profound connection. All of me could feel that he was saying his final goodbye, and I thanked him in silence.
He passed away the next morning before I got back. He'd told the nurse and doctor he didn't want more oxygen, which they honored, and after a short while he slept for good.
So in a way I never got to have a final word with him. But I'm very glad we got to say goodbye.
I don't remember the last words my dad said before he passed. We had some irrelevant chitchat about my daily life, and I got him something to drink or similar.
But as I left that evening and we said good night, he reached out and we shook hands, something we almost never did.
And in that moment, the few seconds as we shook hands in silence and just looked at each other, I felt a deep, profound connection. All of me could feel that he was saying his final goodbye, and I thanked him in silence.
He passed away the next morning before I got back. He'd told the nurse and doctor he didn't want more oxygen, which they honored, and after a short while he slept for good.
So in a way I never got to have a final word with him. But I'm very glad we got to say goodbye.
That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing
We allow termination at the start of a life, so strange that it is not allowed at the end of a life.
I agree with the pasted comment, we need to make strides in allowing the right to die.
I agree with the pasted comment, we need to make strides in allowing the right to die.
I think we literally treat our pet dogs with more dignity and compassion than we do our relatives in terms of end-of-life care and decisions.
I watched my grandfather decline over several years before finally dying of Alzheimers/related. His wife had a much longer and mostly happy time in the assisted living facility, followed by a relatively quick period of dying subsequent to a fall and complications from it.
Her experience was 1000x more preferable in my estimation. His experience was agonizing for all involved, perhaps most distressingly for him. I don't know when the right time is to decide "today is the last day" for a family member (or yourself), but I'm quite sure that the answer should not be "at the latest possible date that modern medicine can enable".
I watched my grandfather decline over several years before finally dying of Alzheimers/related. His wife had a much longer and mostly happy time in the assisted living facility, followed by a relatively quick period of dying subsequent to a fall and complications from it.
Her experience was 1000x more preferable in my estimation. His experience was agonizing for all involved, perhaps most distressingly for him. I don't know when the right time is to decide "today is the last day" for a family member (or yourself), but I'm quite sure that the answer should not be "at the latest possible date that modern medicine can enable".
This article https://medium.com/@rikardhjort/the-deathbed-fallacy-5e54d96... dives into the same topic and makes, IMO, slightly better points.
Thanks!
This article makes me think about Kahneman's research into our two selves: remembered and experienced. Quick quote from relevant paper: "consider a music lover who listens raptly to a long symphony on a disk that is scratched near the end, producing a shocking sound. Such incidents are often described by the statement that the bad ending 'ruined the whole experience'. But,
in fact, the experience was not ruined, only the memory of it."[1]
[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_expe...
[1] https://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_expe...
The most poignant last words I heard from someone about to die, and did 2 hours later:
"I don't want to die."
Gives one a lot to think about.
We are bombarded from fiction with the trope of someone making peace before dying. The fear my mother had just before dying from cancer, that I’ll never forget. It gives me shivers and anxiety more than a decade afterwards.
i lost my father a year ago, and was there as he passed away. society/hospice tells us that it brings comfort to the dying to be surrounded by family - who knows (and is the least i could do to support him after all he did for me). what i do know is that watching someone die is not for the faint of heart - its brutal. thank you for sharing your story and articulating/validating how i've been feeling about things. i wish you peace on your journey.
> "I don't want to die." Gives one a lot to think about.
Doesn't seem poignant, I think this is sad. In a previous comment I said, "In America we have an odd relationship with the inevitable. Sometimes people get a terminal diagnosis, and sometimes they fight it. ..." [0]
Fighting the inevitable is not a noble way to go. Sometimes people can forestall their passing for a few weeks, months or years, but the reaper comes for us all. There are a lot of hucksters who steal with the promise of giving us a little more time...
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523
Children should be exposed to the wisdom of this quote, maybe from Tecumseh, maybe from some other native American:
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.
"When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.
"When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.” [1]
Whether or not there's a divide to go over, I think it important to not fight the inevitable. Make the most of the time you have, but don't fear the reaper [2].
[1] https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-li...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM - "The song, written and sung by lead guitarist Donald "Buck Dharma" Roeser, deals with eternal love and the inevitability of death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper
Doesn't seem poignant, I think this is sad. In a previous comment I said, "In America we have an odd relationship with the inevitable. Sometimes people get a terminal diagnosis, and sometimes they fight it. ..." [0]
Fighting the inevitable is not a noble way to go. Sometimes people can forestall their passing for a few weeks, months or years, but the reaper comes for us all. There are a lot of hucksters who steal with the promise of giving us a little more time...
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224523
Children should be exposed to the wisdom of this quote, maybe from Tecumseh, maybe from some other native American:
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.
"When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision.
"When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.” [1]
Whether or not there's a divide to go over, I think it important to not fight the inevitable. Make the most of the time you have, but don't fear the reaper [2].
[1] https://nativeheritageproject.com/2013/11/17/tecumseh-die-li...
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVn6b9QQZeM - "The song, written and sung by lead guitarist Donald "Buck Dharma" Roeser, deals with eternal love and the inevitability of death." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(Don%27t_Fear)_The_Reaper
This comment seems a lot easier to write for somebody who's not on their deathbed. It's one thing to wax poetic about how somebody should approach death, and it's another thing to actually face it yourself. I think there's something important about the phrase "I don't want to die", and it's not particularly helpful to be dismissive of that. Most of us are going to be scared when facing death, and I think that's okay.
Yeah, this seems nice to say but much harder to actually do.
As someone who has been quite close to death and recovered, I can say with 100% certainty you truly have no idea what that bone-chilling terror is to know that you could well and truly die soon and there's nothing you can do about it.
The unknown is one of the most terrifying things known to mankind. Death is the ultimate unknown. Why else would so many religions involve either an afterlife or reincarnation? Because believing we will turn to dust and cease to exist is incredibly tough to grapple with!
So yeah, good luck on dying as the valiant hero bravely staring down the long sleep!
As someone who has been quite close to death and recovered, I can say with 100% certainty you truly have no idea what that bone-chilling terror is to know that you could well and truly die soon and there's nothing you can do about it.
The unknown is one of the most terrifying things known to mankind. Death is the ultimate unknown. Why else would so many religions involve either an afterlife or reincarnation? Because believing we will turn to dust and cease to exist is incredibly tough to grapple with!
So yeah, good luck on dying as the valiant hero bravely staring down the long sleep!
You made an account (or a throwaway) just to reply to my comment. I think that's interesting... I've gotten a few other replies, which means that this thread is something people care about.
I knocked myself out, nearly drowned, and don't remember 2 weeks. Phased back in over the course of about 6 months. I thought that was basically like being dead, but I've since reconsidered.
Modern Americans don't deal well with death, maybe because we're led to think it's avoidable. I've been watching some movies of the civil war period recently. There were lots of casualties, much more so than previous wars. WWI and WWII and Vietnam were bloodbaths too (more for the Vietnamese civilians than the US soldiers).
The japanese gave their kamakazi pilots meth to help them feel immortal -- soldiers might have survived the skirmish, but being a kamikazi was a death sentence. The japanese were more ... cavalier about dying, which I think helped them to be more efficient fighters.
Pre-modern Americans must have been more realistic about dying. I think it'd be easier to make smart political decisions with the assumption that we're all going to die eventually, than with the assumption that death is optional.
I knocked myself out, nearly drowned, and don't remember 2 weeks. Phased back in over the course of about 6 months. I thought that was basically like being dead, but I've since reconsidered.
Modern Americans don't deal well with death, maybe because we're led to think it's avoidable. I've been watching some movies of the civil war period recently. There were lots of casualties, much more so than previous wars. WWI and WWII and Vietnam were bloodbaths too (more for the Vietnamese civilians than the US soldiers).
The japanese gave their kamakazi pilots meth to help them feel immortal -- soldiers might have survived the skirmish, but being a kamikazi was a death sentence. The japanese were more ... cavalier about dying, which I think helped them to be more efficient fighters.
Pre-modern Americans must have been more realistic about dying. I think it'd be easier to make smart political decisions with the assumption that we're all going to die eventually, than with the assumption that death is optional.
Why is your perspective more correct that the perspective of the person who doesn't want to die? I think we all know that people are of various natures and think in a myriad number of ways and refuse to accept that mostly so that society remains stable.
But I feel that assuming this perspective is better than the other one (about not wanting to die) in this respect (for this particular thing about wanting to live or die on one's deathbed) is just a way of rationalizing death rather than accepting that people just have different natures.
But I feel that assuming this perspective is better than the other one (about not wanting to die) in this respect (for this particular thing about wanting to live or die on one's deathbed) is just a way of rationalizing death rather than accepting that people just have different natures.
The point is that death is inevitable. You can either accept the inevitable or fight it, you get to the same place regardless.
One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal. "For us, the disease is immortality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo
It's one thing to have purpose, or meaningful things to do. Sometimes people get to the place where they're just taking up space. My mom's 97 year old friend (stroked at 89, can't communicate) spends 7 days a week in her little room at the care home. We try to visit semi-regularly, but that turns out to be about two hours a week, or every-other-week. I've heard lately she's getting herself out of bed and falls. She is kept alive, but she doesn't really care to live. I think she was able to express this to her helper, when she was living at home...
One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal. "For us, the disease is immortality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvxufh6ZDo
It's one thing to have purpose, or meaningful things to do. Sometimes people get to the place where they're just taking up space. My mom's 97 year old friend (stroked at 89, can't communicate) spends 7 days a week in her little room at the care home. We try to visit semi-regularly, but that turns out to be about two hours a week, or every-other-week. I've heard lately she's getting herself out of bed and falls. She is kept alive, but she doesn't really care to live. I think she was able to express this to her helper, when she was living at home...
One of the recurring characters on Star Trek were the omniscient immortal Q. One of the recurring subplots was of the Q getting bored of being immortal.
Speaking of Star Trek, Picard spends his entire spin-off series waxing lyrical about how death is so meaningful but when faced with his own death he [SPOILER ALERT] opts to become immortal instead.
Speaking of Star Trek, Picard spends his entire spin-off series waxing lyrical about how death is so meaningful but when faced with his own death he [SPOILER ALERT] opts to become immortal instead.
Today I came again across this poem ("Do not go gentle into that good night", by Dylan Thomas) that is relevant here -- it gives you a sense of the perspective of the opposite side from yours: https://poets.org/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night
It's not about stopping the inevitable. It is about delaying it.
It's clear that you rage against the dying of your light constantly (as do we all, as we should) since death through inaction is available to us all daily and yet you choose action.
Considering you don't take your own advice and actively consume water, it is hard to believe you.
It's clear that you rage against the dying of your light constantly (as do we all, as we should) since death through inaction is available to us all daily and yet you choose action.
Considering you don't take your own advice and actively consume water, it is hard to believe you.
Do not go gently into that good night, rage rage against the dying of the light.
There is no nobility in surrender. There is no reward for acquiescence. Resistance to the bitter end, squeezing everything you can from life while you can, and making the most of what has been gifted to you - that is the noble course.
There is no nobility in surrender. There is no reward for acquiescence. Resistance to the bitter end, squeezing everything you can from life while you can, and making the most of what has been gifted to you - that is the noble course.
Is it considered valuable? I heard that people on deathbed typically say they should have gone for more friendship and less money/power, but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-)
Who knows. It is always easy to see what you lost, but not easy to see what would have been. Would more friends with no money be worth it?
Would it even be possible, or are most people your friend with money but not without. This should be read in two different ways: the cynical they are your friends for the money; and the more charitable without money you are a freeloader not worthy of being a friend.
Would it even be possible, or are most people your friend with money but not without. This should be read in two different ways: the cynical they are your friends for the money; and the more charitable without money you are a freeloader not worthy of being a friend.
> but I don't see that many people valuing that perspective. :-)
You don't have the chance to talk to them because when you are working hard at the office with your like minded colleagues they're at the pub like minded friends.
You don't have the chance to talk to them because when you are working hard at the office with your like minded colleagues they're at the pub like minded friends.
They're also massively contingent on who they're speaking to:
- Would someone declare their most heartfelt thoughts to a random nurse? - Would someone who isn't really a people person bother expressing their wisdom to another person?
- Would someone declare their most heartfelt thoughts to a random nurse? - Would someone who isn't really a people person bother expressing their wisdom to another person?
Got to deathbed (series of strokes) etc. Then had the poor grace to get better, sort of.
Made sure to say what I wanted to kids, (best I could). Reached out to ones that I wanted to.
The experience definitely changes perspective. Spending time with loved ones is far more important. Work is far less, except when I need a break from loved ones.
I really stopped giving any sort of sh*t what anyone thought. So I’m much less afraid to call it like I see it.
Made sure to say what I wanted to kids, (best I could). Reached out to ones that I wanted to.
The experience definitely changes perspective. Spending time with loved ones is far more important. Work is far less, except when I need a break from loved ones.
I really stopped giving any sort of sh*t what anyone thought. So I’m much less afraid to call it like I see it.
This perspective actually seems so much more interesting. Deathbed survivors.
It’s grim, but bridge jumpers that actually survive will often speak about how the unsolvable and overwhelming problems change a moment after stepping off bridge. As in how losing that job doesn’t seem so bad now.
VR Therapy is going to wild...
I’m not sure this guy even read the book or blog. The conversations weren’t simply “Bonnie come here...i wish I was more true to myself...”. They told stories of their regrets. As they were preparing to meet their end, I imagine one way to give themselves closure was to get things off their chest, or to help others avoid similar mistakes.
This is one of the flaws with Bezos regret minimization framework. Optimizing for a point in time perspective seems like the wrong function for most people.
Life is risk. You make a choice. When I was sick and alone and had some risk of dying due to my circumstances I felt lonely, but that moment does not define my global preferences.
It does not mean that I need / should construct my life that when I’m at risk for death I should have people around me. The question is, what will that cost the rest my life in terms of quality of life.
This is painful obvious if you think about it and yet...here we are.
Life is risk. You make a choice. When I was sick and alone and had some risk of dying due to my circumstances I felt lonely, but that moment does not define my global preferences.
It does not mean that I need / should construct my life that when I’m at risk for death I should have people around me. The question is, what will that cost the rest my life in terms of quality of life.
This is painful obvious if you think about it and yet...here we are.
How was the question phrased? "Do you have any regrets?" and they listed these five?
Was there a second question: "What was the greatest sense of accomplishment?"
Without a counter question of some sort, this seems.... unbalanced by construction.
Was there a second question: "What was the greatest sense of accomplishment?"
Without a counter question of some sort, this seems.... unbalanced by construction.
Those interested in the subject might find the movie Martyrs interesting.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1029234/
...
"Fifteen years after a horrifying experience of abduction and prolonged torture, Lucie embarks on a bloody quest for revenge against her oppressors. Along with her childhood friend, Anna, who also suffered abuse, she quickly descends, without hope, into madness and her own delusions. Anna, left on her own begins to re-experience what Lucie did when she was only twelve years old."
I've written about this: https://www.hjorthjort.xyz/2018/02/21/the-deathbed-fallacy.h...
My main issue with the deathbed advice is exactly what he calls "hindsight bias". The deathbed advice is more of a wish-list -- it's not like they were thinking at the time "I should work harder" or "I don't live as my true self, and that's fine". I try to not work too hard, but I also try to make a good and meaningful career for myself. Do I just work less hard? I try to live as my authentic self, but looking back 5 years I see I was probably not doing, in a bunch of ways that seem obvious now but weren't at the time. I wish I had stayed in touch with some of my friends, but quite a few of them I'm happy I cut ties with.
I take no big offence with the advice in general. I think most people recognize that list as things that are sensible and lead to a higher-quality life. If these advice came from a generic life-coach, we'd shrug and say "good points, seems about right, easier said than done". But somehow, because they are "deathbed regrets" they get a veneer of sage-likeness.
Then again, here we are arguing about articles on Hacker News, so what the hell do we know about happiness?
My main issue with the deathbed advice is exactly what he calls "hindsight bias". The deathbed advice is more of a wish-list -- it's not like they were thinking at the time "I should work harder" or "I don't live as my true self, and that's fine". I try to not work too hard, but I also try to make a good and meaningful career for myself. Do I just work less hard? I try to live as my authentic self, but looking back 5 years I see I was probably not doing, in a bunch of ways that seem obvious now but weren't at the time. I wish I had stayed in touch with some of my friends, but quite a few of them I'm happy I cut ties with.
I take no big offence with the advice in general. I think most people recognize that list as things that are sensible and lead to a higher-quality life. If these advice came from a generic life-coach, we'd shrug and say "good points, seems about right, easier said than done". But somehow, because they are "deathbed regrets" they get a veneer of sage-likeness.
Then again, here we are arguing about articles on Hacker News, so what the hell do we know about happiness?
The big empirical evidence that those deathbed platitudes are right: The Harvard Adult Development Study. The results are clear: achievements (even for people who achieve incredible, world changing things that most of us could never hope to come close to) aren't strongly correlated with happiness at any age. Good interpersonal relationships, in contrast, are the most powerful happiness determining factor.
Is happiness or achievement the actual point of life? I think a lot of high achievers know damn well they aren't ever going to be happy. Would someone like Michael Jordan who probably spent 90% of his time on the court totally pissed off at himself or his teammates or both and in utter misery after every loss give up the greatness if he could have been a mediocre but happy person?
Until you realize that some achievements are needed to have good relationships.
Until you realize that some achievements are needed to have good relationships
Achieving or accomplishing something is important, it's not so important what exactly, but if you never achieve or accomplish anything at all you will have difficulty forming relationships with quality people
Achieving or accomplishing something is important, it's not so important what exactly, but if you never achieve or accomplish anything at all you will have difficulty forming relationships with quality people
You don't need to be a millionaire to make friends.
No, but if you are, you'll certainly have a lot more time for them.
Edit: If you want to. Being a millionaire gives you the chance to choose to spend time with friends instead of doing chores, because you can pay people to do chores.
Edit: If you want to. Being a millionaire gives you the chance to choose to spend time with friends instead of doing chores, because you can pay people to do chores.
Really? I know a number of high-achieving people and they tend to spend a lot of their time achieving more.
(Trust-fund kids, on the other hand, do have a lot of time for socializing. Unclear whether they are happier than others or not, though.)
(Trust-fund kids, on the other hand, do have a lot of time for socializing. Unclear whether they are happier than others or not, though.)
I didn't say they would spend more time with friends, just that they could.
I hope this isn't too low effort of a comment, I ask sincerely:
Do you really mean that? Do you find that those who achieve are the most likely to have "a lot more time" to focus on their interpersonal relationships?
Beyond a modest income, my experiences do not line up. This is almost the same reason that I believe the 20th century conception of retirement is a bit silly.
Do you really mean that? Do you find that those who achieve are the most likely to have "a lot more time" to focus on their interpersonal relationships?
Beyond a modest income, my experiences do not line up. This is almost the same reason that I believe the 20th century conception of retirement is a bit silly.
I really do mean that. It depends on the person. Having hung around the YC crowd for 15 years now, it turns out I have a lot of millionaire friends. Some can't stop working, but many have retired early. They spend their days lounging and lunching with friends who are also retired, and their evenings with their friends who still work during the day.
Even the ones that are still working have plenty of time to spend with friends, because they hire people to do chores like cleaning and folding laundry, and then pay for takeout food to save time on cooking and dishes.
Even the ones that are still working have plenty of time to spend with friends, because they hire people to do chores like cleaning and folding laundry, and then pay for takeout food to save time on cooking and dishes.
Actually, the richest members of society typically work longer hours. While that may not be true for their family and hangers-on, if your own personal goal is to have a lot of friends, being a millionaire is not the path, since CEO's and CFO's and the like spend a LOT more time than average workers on their profession.
As I've said a few times below, they may choose to spend more time on their friends. Being a millionaire gives you that choice because you can pay people to do things that would normally take away time from your friends, like chores.
It isn't a necessary conclusion.
It isn't a necessary conclusion.
A million is quite a bit higher than you need for that: https://money.com/ideal-income-study/
If you have many millions, you no longer need to work and can spend all of your time on friendships, if you so desire. If you have few million, you can pay people to do chores for you, so you have more time for friends, if you desire.
That was my point -- that having millions gives you a lot of freedom to choose how you spend your time.
That was my point -- that having millions gives you a lot of freedom to choose how you spend your time.
Doesn’t need to be financial.
I find that learning stuff and being able to do things improve my relationships dramatically. You got to have something to be able to give back.
I find that learning stuff and being able to do things improve my relationships dramatically. You got to have something to be able to give back.
I'm curious what those would be
Some development of personality, kindness, etc. can be considered achievements.
Is that how achievements were defined in the The Harvard Adult Development Study?
Well for my circle of friends, a very big achievement is getting married and having at least one child (biological or adopted)
As someone that has had one or two "deathbed" experiences, I can say two things struck me about them
1) I felt complete peace about dying. In fact, I had to reason myself towards wanting to live
2) I felt a level of clarity about what was important to me that I have never felt before (or since). I struggle to incorporate that into my life on an ongoing basis.
I think these experiences were a terrible gift. I would wish everyone experienced the clarity I had but I could not wish you had to go where I did to get it.
1) I felt complete peace about dying. In fact, I had to reason myself towards wanting to live
2) I felt a level of clarity about what was important to me that I have never felt before (or since). I struggle to incorporate that into my life on an ongoing basis.
I think these experiences were a terrible gift. I would wish everyone experienced the clarity I had but I could not wish you had to go where I did to get it.
When I wonder about my own death I'm always unsure whether I'll be afraid and sad about the fact that I won't see the future or just be so tired with how I feel that I'll just want to be done with it as soon as possible.
The more imminent death seemed, none of that really came to mind. I only felt fear when death was a possibility but when it seemed death was certain, that fear went away. It was strange.
Is is worth your time do describe that feeling of clarity? Have you ever been able to (re)capture it, even for a moment?
Is this a silly question? That's an interesting datum in itself.
Is this a silly question? That's an interesting datum in itself.
It's hard to describe. Best thing I can say is everything just fell away and only the truly important remained. I have never been able to feel that same way again but I try to remember what I felt was important. It is surprisingly hard.
Thanks for sharing a piece of how it felt. I'm curious what the circumstances around that were, if you don't mind.
I had(!) an incurable type of cancer. There were complications during chemo.
I think it's important to remember that many of these "death bed" bits of wisdom are often the same or extremely similar to those found in deep psychedelic and religious experiences, meditation, so on.
As someone pointed out these are often also similar to the more "child like" thoughts that are not constrained by society and do very much so seem to be more of the things that actually do matter.
As someone pointed out these are often also similar to the more "child like" thoughts that are not constrained by society and do very much so seem to be more of the things that actually do matter.
> the dying value exactly the things that our culture tells us all to value: the themes that fill our advertising and magazines
This is a strong, frustratingly unsubstantiated claim. Do we see deathbed wishes vary across cultures in variance with advertised values? Did deathbed wishes “sync up” when mass advertising took hold?
This is a strong, frustratingly unsubstantiated claim. Do we see deathbed wishes vary across cultures in variance with advertised values? Did deathbed wishes “sync up” when mass advertising took hold?
I've been reading some pop-psy books recently (Stumbling on Happiness and Thinking, Fast and Slow) and a recurring theme is that we remember many things in a different way than we experience them in the moment. This can cause weird biases, e.g. where we choose to repeat experiences that are more painful than other options, because we remember pain inaccurately. But one point the books both make is that this is not necessarily irrational per se - we often remember things much more times than we experience them, so optimizing for the memory of them can make sense.
We need not only look to the dead to uncover our deepest values. We can look to mystics, and other masters of the world's religions who spent their entire lives inquiring directly into these questions, armed with their own masters' guidance and millennia of roadmaps painstakingly drawn out by countless others who attempted this before them.
Here in America we often think of Religion as dogma, or as a philosophy, when in reality there are many through-lines that are more adequately characterized as a process of intense questioning and exploration carried on continuously since the beginning of civilization.
After so much effort, the conclusions are quite stable, and you will find them most accessibly in the Indian, Tibetan, and Chinese canons.
Here in America we often think of Religion as dogma, or as a philosophy, when in reality there are many through-lines that are more adequately characterized as a process of intense questioning and exploration carried on continuously since the beginning of civilization.
After so much effort, the conclusions are quite stable, and you will find them most accessibly in the Indian, Tibetan, and Chinese canons.
[deleted]
Interesting article. Unlike many others here, I was convinced:
* When I think "I should have worked less" I imagine myself as having worked less and achieved the same. I fail to model the counterfactual reality accurately. I'm imagining a world where my bank balance is the same but I had 20% more time. That means for me, the "I wish I hadn't worked as hard" would be a poor statement. I would fail to have my standard of living. It's possible others are just as bad at the modeling and seeing what I've seen of others, I'm a slightly above average modeler in general.
* I am comfortable with most of my correspondence being public after I die (and for that which reveals details about other participants, when they die as well). But I know that many HN commenters hate this. They have articulated this strongly in the past so I know that control of how you are perceived post-death is important to many others. Unable to categorize who goes into perception management and who goes into Diogenes, I should reasonably not infer that people will tell the truth since they could just be perception managing.
Overall, interesting article. Made me think about a thing I did not even realize I assumed without basis: that deathbed perspectives are valuable because of lack of incentives.
I suppose there is the added truth that people on their deathbed are rarely as mentally able as those for whom death is far.
Yes, I think downgrading my view of the deathbed perspective is correct.
* When I think "I should have worked less" I imagine myself as having worked less and achieved the same. I fail to model the counterfactual reality accurately. I'm imagining a world where my bank balance is the same but I had 20% more time. That means for me, the "I wish I hadn't worked as hard" would be a poor statement. I would fail to have my standard of living. It's possible others are just as bad at the modeling and seeing what I've seen of others, I'm a slightly above average modeler in general.
* I am comfortable with most of my correspondence being public after I die (and for that which reveals details about other participants, when they die as well). But I know that many HN commenters hate this. They have articulated this strongly in the past so I know that control of how you are perceived post-death is important to many others. Unable to categorize who goes into perception management and who goes into Diogenes, I should reasonably not infer that people will tell the truth since they could just be perception managing.
Overall, interesting article. Made me think about a thing I did not even realize I assumed without basis: that deathbed perspectives are valuable because of lack of incentives.
I suppose there is the added truth that people on their deathbed are rarely as mentally able as those for whom death is far.
Yes, I think downgrading my view of the deathbed perspective is correct.
Makes me think of Quora where people often say:
"Before you ask why ask if."
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask...
"Before you ask why ask if."
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-Before-you-ask-why-ask...
My own personal theory is that the deathbed perspective is quite similar to the childhood one: without the constraints of life placed upon us by social pressures and resource acquisition, we have an easier time realizing what is actually important.