TwinLisp(twinlisp.nongnu.org)

18 pointsby parenthesisvor 18 Jahren19 comments

twinlisp.nongnu.org

http://twinlisp.nongnu.org/

19 comments

jrockwayvor 18 Jahren

I wonder what the Lisp world would be like if people wrote libraries for CL or Scheme instead of inventing their own weird-ass "lisp" dialect.

The point of Lisp is that you don't need to invent your own language. Just "defmacro" and get back to solving your real problem.

omousevor 18 Jahren

But you must admit that making a Lisp dialect is a good learning exercise heh. I don't see newbs learning Perl, Python, C++, Java, etc. by writing their own dialect or interpreter for them.

Just "defmacro" and get back to solving your real problem.

Learning isn't a real problem?

jrockwayvor 18 Jahren

Learning isn't a real problem?

If you are just doing something for fun/learning, there is no need to release it to the world. I've written lots of programming languages, but I don't expect anyone to use them.

I don't see newbs learning Perl, Python, C++, Java, etc. by writing their own dialect or interpreter for them.

This language is more like C++ or Java than Lisp.

shardvor 18 Jahren

<i>If you are just doing something for fun/learning, there is no need to release it to the world.</i>

There's no need to keep it from the world either.

omousevor 18 Jahren

Exactly. The Internet is big enough that you can ignore the millions of learning projects that exist. It's not like we're running out of space or anything ;-)

tokipinvor 18 Jahren

CL is pretty ugly. Scheme isn't so hot either. it's the reason i stayed away from lisp in general for a good half year until Arc came out. it's like these languages had a chance to be pretty due to lisp's streamlined syntax... but they ruined it by using excessively verbose names and abusing the parentheses

jrockwayvor 18 Jahren

For every excessively verbose identifier in CL, I can give you another that's excessively short. I won't defend any of CL's design, it's horrible. But it's not a major problem for actually using the language, you can rename whatever function you want, or have your editor type it for you.

As for the parentheses, I don't see any excess.

    (let (foo bar) ...)

and

   (let ((foo 0)(bar 1)) ...)

are both useful. I would hate to have to write:

   (let (foo nil bar nil) ...)

just because you're afraid of a few parentheses. It is easy to type and easy to read. (foo nil bar nil) is, IMHO, nearly unreadable.

Edited to add: Another reason I like the ((var binding)...) syntax is because it keeps the core language as unambiguious as possible. If I want to have an Arc-like binding operator, I can just write one and use that:

   (my-let (foo 1 bar 2 baz 3) (+ foo bar baz)) ; ==> 6

tokipinvor 18 Jahren

Arc's is:

  (let foo 0 ...)

(and what rkts wrote, due to Arc autodestructuring things.) the multi-bind is with

certainly things can be renamed, but personally i feel that if you don't go the extra mile for your users, someone else will, and you probably don't deserve success

rktsvor 18 Jahren

Arc:

  (let (foo bar) nil ...)

parenthesisvor 18 Jahren

I agree that CL is pretty ugly. But it is also seriously customisable. For example, you can make your own package in which

  (eq (symbol-function 'map)
      (symbol-function 'common-lisp::mapcar))   ---> T

  (eq (symbol-function 'mapseq)
      (symbol-function 'common-lisp::map))      ---> T

And you can do lots of syntax stuff using read macros.

Even simple stuff like doing, e.g.,

  (defmacro mvb (&rest args)
    `(multiple-value-bind ,@args))

can really help.

Having said all that, however, I have written my own interpreter in C for my own Lispy language, which I continue to develop (and use a lot for real tasks).

rtfavor 18 Jahren

Excellent: a combination of C's syntax and extensibility with Common Lisp's speed. That's what I've been waiting for!

jrockwayvor 18 Jahren

When I saw the operator precedence table, I stopped reading and said to myself, "congratulations, you just missed the whole point of lisp."

And actually, SBCL is nearly as fast as C in many cases. So there's really no reason to not use CL, unless of course you don't like CL.

rktsvor 18 Jahren

You don't have to program directly in an AST to do metaprogramming. It's a trade-off: some people feel it's important to make metaprogramming as easy as possible, while others feel it's more important to have readable syntax.

Every Lisp dialect has some high-level syntax, e.g. quote, CL reader macros, and Arc ssyntax. These obscure the relationship between code and the underlying AST, but the designers felt that the gain in readability was worth it.

How much syntax should there be? A hard question, but I think it would be good for Lisp to move in the "more" direction. Readability is one of the big problems I have with Lisp, and macros, while certainly useful, make up only a small fraction of my code.

dehowellvor 18 Jahren

I'm so pissed that I upvoted you, now that I've seen your contributions to other threads. But hey, you managed to finally make a comment that didn't call someone gay or disparage gay people... maybe some positive reinforcement will help you grow up. Good job!

But yes, I can't for the life of me understand why someone would want to use TwinLisp.

tokipinvor 18 Jahren

maybe they forgot what account they were on

logjamvor 18 Jahren

"TwinLisp is a language with C/Java - like syntax, but with internals and abilities of a Common Lisp"

Um...C/Java syntax <i>and</i> the abilities of Common Lisp....and the webpage says s-expressions aren't needed to build macros....ummm...ok, could the author show us a few TwinLisp macros?

jsmcgdvor 18 Jahren

Here's one:

mac &infinite-loop (body) {

`do () { $@body }}

S-expressions are permissible, so maybe it would be best to stick to those until you wrap your head around this crazy infix notation.

logjamvor 18 Jahren

I grew up on simpleminded infix notation, and am overjoyed to have moved on.

Perhaps we could see a macro example just slightly more complex.

lstvor 18 Jahren

If you want to like to freeze you in a Lisp newbie state, please go for it!