Ask HN: How to learn how to sell?
131 comments
Selling is just convincing the other person that you have the (best) solution to their problems and that it's cheaper than dealing with the problem.
Good selling is invisible, because the customer convinces themselves. You don't remember why you picked your car model or why you thought an expensive sugar drink would cure your thirst better. Don't copy "salesmen".
Problem mastery: I once interviewed for a job selling oscilloscopes. The guy who interviewed before me was charismatic; I doubted I'd get the job. But I was the best pick because of technical ability. The boss said that sales was easy to learn, but the customers didn't care about your sales skill, they just wanted to know that you understood the oscilloscopes and weren't bullshitting them.
Dance: Nature has mating dances. There's a kind of sales dance too. It's a suit. It's a cup of coffee and a sandwich. It's "Are you free for a zoom call Monday or Wednesday? We give free t-shirts." It's the Product Hunt newsletter. The other person has to know they are being sold to and consent to it. The sandwich helps them think they didn't just waste an hour.
Storytelling: It's a natural way to communicate. Testimonials are the most effective. A video works too. A list of features works for some people (see dance) but it helps if they can visualize the solution. An effective trick is to inspect element their site and plant in your solution, then email them the screenshots.
Keep it short: A pitch is like a joke. The longer it is, the less impact it has. Cut out as many syllables as you can.
Follow up: Very often the timing is wrong or they have to compare options. Sometimes they won't reply at all. If there's one sales "trick" that works, it's following up.
Good selling is invisible, because the customer convinces themselves. You don't remember why you picked your car model or why you thought an expensive sugar drink would cure your thirst better. Don't copy "salesmen".
Problem mastery: I once interviewed for a job selling oscilloscopes. The guy who interviewed before me was charismatic; I doubted I'd get the job. But I was the best pick because of technical ability. The boss said that sales was easy to learn, but the customers didn't care about your sales skill, they just wanted to know that you understood the oscilloscopes and weren't bullshitting them.
Dance: Nature has mating dances. There's a kind of sales dance too. It's a suit. It's a cup of coffee and a sandwich. It's "Are you free for a zoom call Monday or Wednesday? We give free t-shirts." It's the Product Hunt newsletter. The other person has to know they are being sold to and consent to it. The sandwich helps them think they didn't just waste an hour.
Storytelling: It's a natural way to communicate. Testimonials are the most effective. A video works too. A list of features works for some people (see dance) but it helps if they can visualize the solution. An effective trick is to inspect element their site and plant in your solution, then email them the screenshots.
Keep it short: A pitch is like a joke. The longer it is, the less impact it has. Cut out as many syllables as you can.
Follow up: Very often the timing is wrong or they have to compare options. Sometimes they won't reply at all. If there's one sales "trick" that works, it's following up.
I can't stress enough how important following up is.
Anecdote: I had a business owner send me 3 follow up emails, I was busy and I couldn't reply. When I got the third email, I was like f*k it, let's do it. Today, that email is going to make him $31,500.
A lot of peoples reaction to getting sent 3 follow up emails is to mark them as spam.
I do a ton of cold outreach, and in my experience, the difference is in the way you communicate.
In each of my follow-ups, I mention that I am reaching them because I did not hear from them the previous time, and ask them to reply one way or the other.
It communicates to them that if they just reply a 'No', I would stop,
Also, I do not persist forever. My follow ups are always 4 levels deep, and in the final mail, I make sure I tell that it's the last one and I won't send another one.
So anyone like OP who's delaying it simply because they are busy tend to reply.
Again, I am not sure if these are ideal tactics, but they seem to work for me.
In each of my follow-ups, I mention that I am reaching them because I did not hear from them the previous time, and ask them to reply one way or the other.
It communicates to them that if they just reply a 'No', I would stop,
Also, I do not persist forever. My follow ups are always 4 levels deep, and in the final mail, I make sure I tell that it's the last one and I won't send another one.
So anyone like OP who's delaying it simply because they are busy tend to reply.
Again, I am not sure if these are ideal tactics, but they seem to work for me.
This is intriguing. I don't want to reply (in b2b situations) because I feel the salesperson might try to 'use me' to get to some other key decision maker within my org. I don't want that process taking up my limited time. So, if I say no, it opens the door the more discussion, as it acknowledges I at least had some time to think about it.
Same boat here. Since sales are a big part of my job, I occasionally read them to gauge how effective they might be (if I were the target audience). I used to reply to the more well-crafted ones with a polite “thanks, not interested” but in almost every case where I engaged, it seemed to lead to an attempt to reach someone in my org who might be interested. Now I just delete them.
Interesting. I typically hit the decision maker or their boss - so when I get a no, I know there is no one else to seek.
Some people also reply with a sterner 'no, don't reply again'. To them, I do not even reply with a 'Thanks, no problem' message since I'm scared they will mark me as spam!
Some people also reply with a sterner 'no, don't reply again'. To them, I do not even reply with a 'Thanks, no problem' message since I'm scared they will mark me as spam!
Perhaps it's just me, but I find those follow-up extremely annoying and if I'm getting at least one, that guarantees blocking of recipient.
We live in high turnover of information, and if I received your first email (which I did) and didn't respond, it does mean I am not interested. Sending a follow up would just spark frustration.
Again, perhaps it's just me and this approach works for most people, but it may be useful to know it does not for all.
We live in high turnover of information, and if I received your first email (which I did) and didn't respond, it does mean I am not interested. Sending a follow up would just spark frustration.
Again, perhaps it's just me and this approach works for most people, but it may be useful to know it does not for all.
I guess the problem here is the ambiguity of not responding -- it could mean you're not interested, but it could also mean you are too busy to reply. Without additional information, the salesman doesn't know which case it is.
From his perspective though, he doesn't lose anything by sending the follow up, and if it is the second case, may gain a sale.
From his perspective though, he doesn't lose anything by sending the follow up, and if it is the second case, may gain a sale.
There is no ambiguity in non-responding - if I am not responding, the subject is of no interest to me. That's pretty simple thing to understand.
Of course it doesn't work for non organised individuals and people who succumb under pressure.
Of course it doesn't work for non organised individuals and people who succumb under pressure.
Email providers in general, and GMail in particular, is not as sophisticated as we like to believe. There have been so many instances where people I have been talking to for several years get randomly thrown into the spam folder.
It goes without saying that some of my outreaches get thrown there too by default.
So, as the sender, I don't really know if you saw the message and didn't want it, or if you were too busy to reply, or that you did not receive my message in the first place.
There are, of course, many email tracking tools available. I do not use them though.
It goes without saying that some of my outreaches get thrown there too by default.
So, as the sender, I don't really know if you saw the message and didn't want it, or if you were too busy to reply, or that you did not receive my message in the first place.
There are, of course, many email tracking tools available. I do not use them though.
My own personal stats is that half my successes came from following up.
You do have to be really careful and get intent right. I don't want to sell something to someone uninterested (they're usually the bad clients that need 80% effort, 20% returns anyway).
A lot of sales people are just manipulative with this and it'll show. It comes across as impatient, pushy, or insulting.
If I know that the other person read it and is interested but evaluating other options, an email could be along the lines of, "So what do you think? I'm happy to answer any questions you have."
If it goes into a void, I'd say, "Sorry to follow up, but I'm not sure if my last email was lost in your inbox or if you've got other things on your mind. To reiterate, (brief pitch on product). I'll probably send one more follow up later for your convenience. If you're not interested, just let me know and I won't bother you."
Many people are afraid of rejection, but IMO it's a very good thing. Encourage them to say no. You know what doesn't work - wrong target market, wrong pitch, or some cases it's just not good enough. We've had situations where we were told, "It's interesting but not being able to log out of all devices is a security hole and dealbreaker." It could be a polite excuse, but it was a feature angle we didn't think of and also a hint when it's okay to try again.
You do have to be really careful and get intent right. I don't want to sell something to someone uninterested (they're usually the bad clients that need 80% effort, 20% returns anyway).
A lot of sales people are just manipulative with this and it'll show. It comes across as impatient, pushy, or insulting.
If I know that the other person read it and is interested but evaluating other options, an email could be along the lines of, "So what do you think? I'm happy to answer any questions you have."
If it goes into a void, I'd say, "Sorry to follow up, but I'm not sure if my last email was lost in your inbox or if you've got other things on your mind. To reiterate, (brief pitch on product). I'll probably send one more follow up later for your convenience. If you're not interested, just let me know and I won't bother you."
Many people are afraid of rejection, but IMO it's a very good thing. Encourage them to say no. You know what doesn't work - wrong target market, wrong pitch, or some cases it's just not good enough. We've had situations where we were told, "It's interesting but not being able to log out of all devices is a security hole and dealbreaker." It could be a polite excuse, but it was a feature angle we didn't think of and also a hint when it's okay to try again.
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I interned at an organization which was interested in purchasing a million dollars worth of oscilloscopes. Tektronix sent out two reps and I was in the room watching them chat with my boss. My boss basically just asked them about the different features of the scopes and their compatibility with our existing systems. So to your point, it's exactly true: the scopes sell themselves, it's just a matter of explaining how a particular model fits the needs of the customer and contrasting it with the competitor offerings.
And your story also demonstrates the power of marketing and of a company's or product's reputation. Frequently one has already decided to buy from a company before calling Sales to discuss the products, so of course the job of Sales is now much simpler. When I bought my last car I had already decided to buy from a particular brand, all the dealership had to do was point me to the selection they had in stock.
> Selling is just convincing the other person that you have the (best) solution to their problems and that it's cheaper than dealing with the problem.
In a lot of cases selling involves convincing someone that they have a problem that needs solving. That's the more difficult part because the easiest (and cheapest) option is always just to not buy anything.
In a lot of cases selling involves convincing someone that they have a problem that needs solving. That's the more difficult part because the easiest (and cheapest) option is always just to not buy anything.
These are good points. Also don’t obsess with learning the “dance”, what is useful first is knowing how a sale cycle works and what is expected at each step, so it shows you are a professional that has seen others.
If you know a bit of the formalism then just showing you are competent and have a solution to solve the customer problem is enough to start making deals. The rest is optimization.
If you know a bit of the formalism then just showing you are competent and have a solution to solve the customer problem is enough to start making deals. The rest is optimization.
I was on the fence about putting the "dance" part in because I think a lot of people would try too hard and get it wrong.
But the most common newbie mistake is to, as a mentor put it, prostitute your product. They simply shove it into everyone's faces as loudly as possible. This works at a bazaar, but not in many places.
It's also a faux pas to wear a suit when approaching companies whose formal wear is a t-shirt. You don't have to find all the unwritten rules but just be aware of them.
But the most common newbie mistake is to, as a mentor put it, prostitute your product. They simply shove it into everyone's faces as loudly as possible. This works at a bazaar, but not in many places.
It's also a faux pas to wear a suit when approaching companies whose formal wear is a t-shirt. You don't have to find all the unwritten rules but just be aware of them.
> Keep it short: A pitch is like a joke. The longer it is, the less impact it has. Cut out as many syllables as you can.
Uh, are you into standup comedy? One-liners aren’t the be-all-end-all.
And seriously, institutional sales cycles at the 7-figure level often take months not minutes.
Uh, are you into standup comedy? One-liners aren’t the be-all-end-all.
And seriously, institutional sales cycles at the 7-figure level often take months not minutes.
> they just wanted to know that you understood the oscilloscopes and weren't bullshitting them.
In the IT industry, I feel like absolutely, 100% everyone must know that 98% of computers a giant company buys should be MacBook Airs, and yet Lenovo employees wake up every day telling people they should buy some crappy laptops. There are possibly 20 well-funded startups bullshitting people that they should use a database other than Postgres.
The present of sales is Wirecutter, not "sales cycles." Most people are making mediocre, derivative crap, how could they possibly not be bullshitting you?
If you're making something fucking shitty, just don't fucking sell it at all, and move on. Wait until it's the best, or do something else.
In the IT industry, I feel like absolutely, 100% everyone must know that 98% of computers a giant company buys should be MacBook Airs, and yet Lenovo employees wake up every day telling people they should buy some crappy laptops. There are possibly 20 well-funded startups bullshitting people that they should use a database other than Postgres.
The present of sales is Wirecutter, not "sales cycles." Most people are making mediocre, derivative crap, how could they possibly not be bullshitting you?
If you're making something fucking shitty, just don't fucking sell it at all, and move on. Wait until it's the best, or do something else.
It can be hard to understand why the best product for you personally might not be the best product for someone else. A good salesman understands the need first, then the solution.
By contrast your assertion that a Macbook Air is the best option 98% of the time (for giant companies no less) seems unlikely at best, and an incompetent sales person at worst.
I am not a Macbook user myself (for various reasons) so I won't delve into why giant-Corp may prefer Windows, but suffice to say that when you are adding thousands of machines to an existing environment, issues like Active Directory, User Training, custom software compatibility, job risk (to the purchaser) are front of mind.
For example say you're the guy who just dropped tens of millions on 1000 of these new Macs, because they are sooo much nicer, and then reports come in about keyboards not working. Let's just say your firing may be a lesson to the next buyer...
By contrast your assertion that a Macbook Air is the best option 98% of the time (for giant companies no less) seems unlikely at best, and an incompetent sales person at worst.
I am not a Macbook user myself (for various reasons) so I won't delve into why giant-Corp may prefer Windows, but suffice to say that when you are adding thousands of machines to an existing environment, issues like Active Directory, User Training, custom software compatibility, job risk (to the purchaser) are front of mind.
For example say you're the guy who just dropped tens of millions on 1000 of these new Macs, because they are sooo much nicer, and then reports come in about keyboards not working. Let's just say your firing may be a lesson to the next buyer...
On the Postgres thing, this is one of my favourite example of sales: https://docs.fauna.com/fauna/current/comparisons/compare-fau...
It's by a former Twitter engineer. I have no idea if he's bullshitting me but he's a lot smarter at this topic than I am so I'm inclined to believe it.
It's a new thing. I generally don't have the time for new things, especially something like a database with a learning curve. But this is one of the things that caught my eye. I don't really remember how it did, but it's good sales work.
It's by a former Twitter engineer. I have no idea if he's bullshitting me but he's a lot smarter at this topic than I am so I'm inclined to believe it.
It's a new thing. I generally don't have the time for new things, especially something like a database with a learning curve. But this is one of the things that caught my eye. I don't really remember how it did, but it's good sales work.
You don’t spend these months pitching, in fact the cycle only start because the initial pitch was effective.
> Keep it short: A pitch is like a joke. The longer it is, the less impact it has
I see you're never read Nate the Snake: https://natethesnake.com
I see you're never read Nate the Snake: https://natethesnake.com
Here’s what’s worked for me doing 7-figures in web design/dev sales:
1) Confidence. That only comes from knowing your product/service inside and out, you can’t learn confidence IMO.
2) Caring. It helps a ton if you genuinely care about your clients. Making some connection about kids, sports, books, etc. goes a long way. They start seeing you as a friend and you’re typically much more forgiving of your friends, which inevitably comes in handy at some point. Read the room though and if the client gives you short answers, move on to business talk. If they light up, keep conversing until there’s a natural break and transition back into business talk.
3) Reputation. A solid portfolio and written testimonials are huge. It’s worth it to pick up a cheap projects to get a good reference when you’re starting out.
4) Speed. Time is money. Write people back as soon as you read the email. My response times were sometimes only a few minutes and it impresses people and gives them confidence that they’re a priority for you.
5) Follow through. If you say you’ll get a proposal out by the end of the week, be willing to make sacrifices to meet that commitment if necessary.
6) Write super simple proposals. Your client cares about what they’ll pay and when it’ll be done and the scope of work. The rest is fluff, which isn’t bad, but make those 3 things front and center because that’s what they’ll be scanning for.
1) Confidence. That only comes from knowing your product/service inside and out, you can’t learn confidence IMO.
2) Caring. It helps a ton if you genuinely care about your clients. Making some connection about kids, sports, books, etc. goes a long way. They start seeing you as a friend and you’re typically much more forgiving of your friends, which inevitably comes in handy at some point. Read the room though and if the client gives you short answers, move on to business talk. If they light up, keep conversing until there’s a natural break and transition back into business talk.
3) Reputation. A solid portfolio and written testimonials are huge. It’s worth it to pick up a cheap projects to get a good reference when you’re starting out.
4) Speed. Time is money. Write people back as soon as you read the email. My response times were sometimes only a few minutes and it impresses people and gives them confidence that they’re a priority for you.
5) Follow through. If you say you’ll get a proposal out by the end of the week, be willing to make sacrifices to meet that commitment if necessary.
6) Write super simple proposals. Your client cares about what they’ll pay and when it’ll be done and the scope of work. The rest is fluff, which isn’t bad, but make those 3 things front and center because that’s what they’ll be scanning for.
>Your client cares about what they’ll pay and when it’ll be done and the scope of work
So...what is up with the people who write an agreement for providing services with a price and no details about the work or when it will be done? And then it's like pulling teeth to find out what they will do and what exact equipment is included?
I read in various places all sorts of rules for doing business the right way, and I think, yeah, that sounds obvious, and then in the real world it largely doesn't seem to be practiced.
So...what is up with the people who write an agreement for providing services with a price and no details about the work or when it will be done? And then it's like pulling teeth to find out what they will do and what exact equipment is included?
I read in various places all sorts of rules for doing business the right way, and I think, yeah, that sounds obvious, and then in the real world it largely doesn't seem to be practiced.
Yeah, I’m not sure either. Maybe it’s because they’re rushing and not thinking it through or don’t want to take the time to plan the project out or maybe because they want it to be vague for some reason like billing for this project planning instead of doing it for free up front.
I do both types depending on projects and customers. Some want detailed specs to be reassured, other are ok with Agile like trust us to do the best.
research (as learned in mba school) indicates that two qualities correlate to sales success: empathy and ego/competitiveness. the first relates to your points about caring and simple proposals. the second relates to confidence, speed, and follow-through (you want to score points and win).
selling is not that hard for most analytical-types if viewed as problem-solving where problems can be creatively coerced to look nail-like for your product/service hammer (not being off-putting helps too).
selling is not that hard for most analytical-types if viewed as problem-solving where problems can be creatively coerced to look nail-like for your product/service hammer (not being off-putting helps too).
Yes, problem solving is a great interpretation of how I approached sales.
> you can’t learn confidence IMO
I think that's what he meant by the following sentence. You can't learn confidence by training your ego, it's based on your understanding of your product (and competitors).
I guess my point is that I’m confident about web design/dev because I have decades of experience in it. I wouldn’t be confident in real estate sales because I don’t know the industry. In other words, confidence without experience is just arrogance or naïveté IMO.
I have no experience in sales, but as someone who has been sold many things, the list seems really correct to me.
It's funny how you didn't mention the product quality at all. Perhaps it's modern way to choose a product based on how sales person makes you feel vs. cutting the bs and assessing the product qualities.
This is implied in the first 3 points (confidence, care, and reputation).
I liked this 5 video playlist by Louis Rossmann https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI9Z_fJ38lM&list=PLkVbIsAWN2...
He is an independent repair technician/youtuber/right to repair activist, and not a guru of some sort, and he's speaking from his experience here.
-
Salesmanship part 1 - Don't present without knowing the priorities of the customer
Salesmanship part 2 - Don't be NEEDY just because you're a salesman!
Salesmanship part 3 - Focus on the PAIN & MISERY of your customer!
Salesmanship part 4 - Give people MULTIPLE CHANCES to SAY NO to what you are offering.
Salesmanship part 5 - The customer is rarely RIGHT, but ARGUING always makes you WRONG!
He is an independent repair technician/youtuber/right to repair activist, and not a guru of some sort, and he's speaking from his experience here.
-
Salesmanship part 1 - Don't present without knowing the priorities of the customer
Salesmanship part 2 - Don't be NEEDY just because you're a salesman!
Salesmanship part 3 - Focus on the PAIN & MISERY of your customer!
Salesmanship part 4 - Give people MULTIPLE CHANCES to SAY NO to what you are offering.
Salesmanship part 5 - The customer is rarely RIGHT, but ARGUING always makes you WRONG!
How do you give multiple chances to say no? Is it like persisting with further offerings or different pricing etc?
I'm a freelance composer, so selling is just part of my job description. However, I kind of accidentally stumbled upon a good way to get your sales skills up to snuff:
Craigslist.
I really enjoying flipping instruments or anything else I know I can make a profit off of. It allows me to "rent" something I want to check out for a while, but still probably make a profit off of. Take a topic you know about or enjoy, find cheaper-than-usual examples of that thing (especially lightly-broken things that just need a bit of TLC), and then flip for a profit. You'll deal with all sorts of weird personalities, as is tradition with Craigslist, but doing just doing it on a regular basis really pushes you quite quickly to get your sales skills up to snuff. It's hard for me to even point to specific aspects of those skills in particular -- it's more a general mindset, an understanding of people's psychology, etc. You just get a feel for it -- or at least I did.
Craigslist.
I really enjoying flipping instruments or anything else I know I can make a profit off of. It allows me to "rent" something I want to check out for a while, but still probably make a profit off of. Take a topic you know about or enjoy, find cheaper-than-usual examples of that thing (especially lightly-broken things that just need a bit of TLC), and then flip for a profit. You'll deal with all sorts of weird personalities, as is tradition with Craigslist, but doing just doing it on a regular basis really pushes you quite quickly to get your sales skills up to snuff. It's hard for me to even point to specific aspects of those skills in particular -- it's more a general mindset, an understanding of people's psychology, etc. You just get a feel for it -- or at least I did.
This would be an amazing premise for an online course.
Really? I'm very interested in hearing why you think that.
Most content/courses lack that 'real world' feel where students learn by doing something that interacts with the real world in a way that's meaningful to them.
Even project-based courses don't really give students 'real' feedback: paying customers (or users paying with attention) tinkering with creations, asking for things, breaking it, etc.
This online sales dynamic you described feels 1) 'real' in that the interactions occur outside the course with customers and 2) scoped and digital-first as to make it easy to curate or coach the student (inputs/outputs seem easy to gather/parse as they are chats/emails/prices/copy/etc).
I'd imagine something like:
Even project-based courses don't really give students 'real' feedback: paying customers (or users paying with attention) tinkering with creations, asking for things, breaking it, etc.
This online sales dynamic you described feels 1) 'real' in that the interactions occur outside the course with customers and 2) scoped and digital-first as to make it easy to curate or coach the student (inputs/outputs seem easy to gather/parse as they are chats/emails/prices/copy/etc).
I'd imagine something like:
1. Students select products or themes they are interested in outside the course (example: computer peripherals like, mics/cams/headphones for streaming).
2. Set a budget to get started (real skin in the game!).
3. First purchase, make approach using course tips/tricks.
4. Get feedback from course instructors on form/copy/negotiation tactics
5. Rinse and repeat
Huh. Very interesting, thank you! You've given me some things to think about.
I did the same with boutique guitar pedals for a time. Having and using each pedal for a month or so before flipping it ended up usually costing just the shipping amount in the end. It was a fun experience and I was able to indulge the hobby in an inexpensive way.
I arrived at the same realization as you--having sales as a skill is beneficial no matter the career path a person is on.
As developer of ~10 years experience, the path I took to get sales experience was to take a job as a sales engineer for a technical product in my software domain. It is the best career decision I have made so far.
My fear was that I would lose my technical knowledge, but I quickly realized that was not the risk I thought it was. I am consistently challenged by the breadth and depth of questions posed by each customer based on their unique needs. As a sales engineer, I learn more in my technical domain than I did at my last humdrum dev job.
And on top of that, of course, I get exposure and practice in this other side of the business and set of skills that was previously an enigma to me.
For me, sales engineering is the best of both worlds.
As developer of ~10 years experience, the path I took to get sales experience was to take a job as a sales engineer for a technical product in my software domain. It is the best career decision I have made so far.
My fear was that I would lose my technical knowledge, but I quickly realized that was not the risk I thought it was. I am consistently challenged by the breadth and depth of questions posed by each customer based on their unique needs. As a sales engineer, I learn more in my technical domain than I did at my last humdrum dev job.
And on top of that, of course, I get exposure and practice in this other side of the business and set of skills that was previously an enigma to me.
For me, sales engineering is the best of both worlds.
I completely agree, and I am surprised your comment was the only that mentioned sales engineering. Like you, I took a sales engineering role for a technical product, and it was by far the best way for me to learn sales (coming from a software background).
Plus, while there is an abundance of sales materials out there, none of them will prepare you as well as actually doing the thing. I'm not scared of talking to customers, no matter what impressive titles they may bring to the table -- I've already spoken with dozens of other CTOs, CISOs, COOs, etc. from the deals I worked on. I'm acutely aware of the art of a pitch, and have a mental model for which techniques are crucial and which are to be avoided. After practicing the pitch/demo enough, I was able to start analyzing my choice of words, flow, etc. during the actual call (as opposed to after the fact). I also learned the art to managing deal cycles, and an immediate "no" is vastly preferable to a "no" after being strung along for a year. Perhaps most importantly, I learned how to be the trusted technical advisor to the customer -- the sales rep may want every deal to close, whether or not it's a good fit, but that's not the way to happy customers and good integrity in the sales process.
I only did the sales engineering role for a little under a year, but it provided me with incredible value.
Plus, while there is an abundance of sales materials out there, none of them will prepare you as well as actually doing the thing. I'm not scared of talking to customers, no matter what impressive titles they may bring to the table -- I've already spoken with dozens of other CTOs, CISOs, COOs, etc. from the deals I worked on. I'm acutely aware of the art of a pitch, and have a mental model for which techniques are crucial and which are to be avoided. After practicing the pitch/demo enough, I was able to start analyzing my choice of words, flow, etc. during the actual call (as opposed to after the fact). I also learned the art to managing deal cycles, and an immediate "no" is vastly preferable to a "no" after being strung along for a year. Perhaps most importantly, I learned how to be the trusted technical advisor to the customer -- the sales rep may want every deal to close, whether or not it's a good fit, but that's not the way to happy customers and good integrity in the sales process.
I only did the sales engineering role for a little under a year, but it provided me with incredible value.
The hard thing about selling in my opinion is not the sell it self.
Its the things that sourounds it.
You need to be very organized and keeping track of multiple leads and their info.
Be able to remember dates and numbers in your heard in situations where you cant take notes.
Remeber names and places.
Not to be afriad of dealing with angry people or disapointed people.
Always be happy and social even when you have a bad day.
Knowing where you can reach leads and where to find contacts.
Knowing where to "start" when you have no customer base to go off.
Always always always follow up, no matter what. Dont let things slip from your fingers.
Its the things that sourounds it.
You need to be very organized and keeping track of multiple leads and their info.
Be able to remember dates and numbers in your heard in situations where you cant take notes.
Remeber names and places.
Not to be afriad of dealing with angry people or disapointed people.
Always be happy and social even when you have a bad day.
Knowing where you can reach leads and where to find contacts.
Knowing where to "start" when you have no customer base to go off.
Always always always follow up, no matter what. Dont let things slip from your fingers.
I fully agree with this. I work with a lot of sales people, and this describes the best ones.
They are also the best at running meetings. They never let a meeting end without clear actions and owners. It's quite impressive to watch - I didn't realise how much skill there was in running meetings until I saw one of these folks run a few.
They are also the best at running meetings. They never let a meeting end without clear actions and owners. It's quite impressive to watch - I didn't realise how much skill there was in running meetings until I saw one of these folks run a few.
Benefits first, features later. A narrative rather than a list.
How will your product help the buyer? Why is your vision superior to others'? Where do your ideas plug into the prospect's work? How would you make that difference in the new employer's setup?
Or: Focus on the "why". Why should someone buy whatever you are selling. Not the "what" - as in, dont focus initially on "what are the features".
Why first, what later. And when talking about the "what" - more of a couple of key Unique Selling Propositions and then the checklist of features.
[Exceptions will apply where it is purely technical sales and features / standards / compliance carry more weight than the 'story'. The narrative then shifts to "being compliant"]
How will your product help the buyer? Why is your vision superior to others'? Where do your ideas plug into the prospect's work? How would you make that difference in the new employer's setup?
Or: Focus on the "why". Why should someone buy whatever you are selling. Not the "what" - as in, dont focus initially on "what are the features".
Why first, what later. And when talking about the "what" - more of a couple of key Unique Selling Propositions and then the checklist of features.
[Exceptions will apply where it is purely technical sales and features / standards / compliance carry more weight than the 'story'. The narrative then shifts to "being compliant"]
If you can afford it: Sandler sales training. They're not the only solution, but they're very good and (at least in the past) part of your fee includes lifetime access to go back and retake the training, freshen up your skills, etc. (I'm not affiliated, but I did go through their training; it made me the best salesperson in my circle of small-consulting-shop friends and colleagues.)
If you can't afford it? Read The Challenger Sale, a data-backed look at the most effective techniques.
If you can't afford it? Read The Challenger Sale, a data-backed look at the most effective techniques.
Selling is a horrible misnomer, the process is entirely about understanding that you have something the other party might want, and communicating this effectively. You could take a shit hot salesperson and give them a garbage product, and force them to work an idiotic market segment and they'll sell nothing. On the other hand, you could take a person (like me!) with almost no interpersonal skills whatsoever with a solution to a very specific issue faced by people they're already in contact with, and they'll sell like champions.
So the whole framing of product and market, and communication media is way more interesting (IMHO) than 'selling' as an explicit skill. (And yes, I do "sell", but I'm not "good at selling", because my skillset is tied to a tiny handful of niches where I have this framing figured out)
edit: there's another bit that annoyed me about this post, and it's the idea of explicit 'selling' before having a solution to sell. It's something akin to putting the cart before the horse. Any selling opportunities I've discovered have always been in the pursuit of solving some other problem. I suppose basically if you have a genuinely good solution to any problem, selling is barely a skill worth worrying about. This is as true in interviews as in product marketing
So the whole framing of product and market, and communication media is way more interesting (IMHO) than 'selling' as an explicit skill. (And yes, I do "sell", but I'm not "good at selling", because my skillset is tied to a tiny handful of niches where I have this framing figured out)
edit: there's another bit that annoyed me about this post, and it's the idea of explicit 'selling' before having a solution to sell. It's something akin to putting the cart before the horse. Any selling opportunities I've discovered have always been in the pursuit of solving some other problem. I suppose basically if you have a genuinely good solution to any problem, selling is barely a skill worth worrying about. This is as true in interviews as in product marketing
It's worth noting this can vary a lot depending on target market and deal size.
I've had the fortune of being in a tech role where I got to join plenty of sales calls. And I've observed that when selling large deal to large companies, selling is both a skill and a process and the difference between a good salesperson and a mediocre one is literally millions of dollars a year.
If you're looking to close large deals with good clients who you aren't currently in contact with (but who really, truly have a need for what you offer), it's worth looking at selling as a discrete set of skills including prospecting, nurturing leads, getting meetings, and closing deals. Closing can be an adventure even after a prospect said they want to buy. Shepherding a deal through an enterprise onboarding and procurement process is no walk in the park.
A lot of people see this kind of formal selling process as distasteful. I used to feel that way, too. But when I observed it in action it didn't seem like enterprise decision makers viewed the process negatively. They expected to be sold to and were generally receptive to it because the product met a need.
So as I mentioned, it's highly dependent on what you sell and who you're selling it to, but I think a wholesale dismissal of selling as a useful skill would be a mistake.
I've had the fortune of being in a tech role where I got to join plenty of sales calls. And I've observed that when selling large deal to large companies, selling is both a skill and a process and the difference between a good salesperson and a mediocre one is literally millions of dollars a year.
If you're looking to close large deals with good clients who you aren't currently in contact with (but who really, truly have a need for what you offer), it's worth looking at selling as a discrete set of skills including prospecting, nurturing leads, getting meetings, and closing deals. Closing can be an adventure even after a prospect said they want to buy. Shepherding a deal through an enterprise onboarding and procurement process is no walk in the park.
A lot of people see this kind of formal selling process as distasteful. I used to feel that way, too. But when I observed it in action it didn't seem like enterprise decision makers viewed the process negatively. They expected to be sold to and were generally receptive to it because the product met a need.
So as I mentioned, it's highly dependent on what you sell and who you're selling it to, but I think a wholesale dismissal of selling as a useful skill would be a mistake.
> It's worth noting this can vary a lot depending on target market and deal size.
I'd go so far as to say that once you hit a certain deal size, it's impossible to compete without treating sales as its own specialized field just like you would management in a large organization. The number of independent variables and people involved grows superlinearly with the amount of money involved and managing that process is its own skill, one that's extremely valuable because it can only learned in a trial by fire. As they grow bigger, they get even more specialized - a friend of mine who was the rockstar salesman at a big CRO that made 8-9 figure deals to run clinical trials for pharma had a lot of trouble moving into commercial jet sales, for example, which might see 10-11 figure deals delivered over a decade.
I'd go so far as to say that once you hit a certain deal size, it's impossible to compete without treating sales as its own specialized field just like you would management in a large organization. The number of independent variables and people involved grows superlinearly with the amount of money involved and managing that process is its own skill, one that's extremely valuable because it can only learned in a trial by fire. As they grow bigger, they get even more specialized - a friend of mine who was the rockstar salesman at a big CRO that made 8-9 figure deals to run clinical trials for pharma had a lot of trouble moving into commercial jet sales, for example, which might see 10-11 figure deals delivered over a decade.
> the process is entirely about understanding that you have something the other party might want, and communicating this effectively.
More to the point, it's also about listening to what your sales prospect is actually looking for and helping explain to them how what you're selling fits their needs or wants, so that they'll make a decision to commit to the solution you're offering.
If you have no sales prospects, then you have a marketing problem, not a sales problem. Marketing is about explaining why your solution is desirable to as many people in the first place, ideally people who the arcane-black-magic-practicioners tell you are totally going to become sales prospects, if only they knew you existed. But leave aside reaching your audience - if you can't explain why you're hot stuff to somebody who is naturally inclined to want what you're selling, then you have a confidence problem, not a marketing problem.
More to the point, it's also about listening to what your sales prospect is actually looking for and helping explain to them how what you're selling fits their needs or wants, so that they'll make a decision to commit to the solution you're offering.
If you have no sales prospects, then you have a marketing problem, not a sales problem. Marketing is about explaining why your solution is desirable to as many people in the first place, ideally people who the arcane-black-magic-practicioners tell you are totally going to become sales prospects, if only they knew you existed. But leave aside reaching your audience - if you can't explain why you're hot stuff to somebody who is naturally inclined to want what you're selling, then you have a confidence problem, not a marketing problem.
Marketing moves all deals forward. Sales moves specific ones forward.
Agreed. If your product just works, “sales” is a piece of cake. If it doesn’t and you find yourself hiring a fancy expensive charismatic sales team just to convince people to buy your product then that’s borderline fraud imo.
Perhaps in some segments. BigCo b2b not so much IMHO :/
I've had trouble getting big companies to buy startup product because a) nobody wants to be the first big name and b) they're worried you'll be out of business in 2 years and integration effort will have been for nothing.
Of course these are self-fulfilling prophesies unless you can get the "engine" running.
Also if your product overlaps with features or products of a large vendor who already has a relationship with your customer (this is common) you have to fight the incumbent - and they have home team advantage even if their product sucks.
I've had trouble getting big companies to buy startup product because a) nobody wants to be the first big name and b) they're worried you'll be out of business in 2 years and integration effort will have been for nothing.
Of course these are self-fulfilling prophesies unless you can get the "engine" running.
Also if your product overlaps with features or products of a large vendor who already has a relationship with your customer (this is common) you have to fight the incumbent - and they have home team advantage even if their product sucks.
With every market there's a timing element and a large part of it revolves around exactly those kinds of marketing considerations. The right product at the wrong time won't get traction because they're taking a space already occupied by some incumbent - but offering when there's hype and interest around your category and a lot of first-time customer potential gets you in the door unchallenged, hence why there are distinct "generational waves" of startups that find a growth segment and sink their teeth in it at the right moment.
While this answer points out there can be various factors involved in the success of a sale, it completely underestimates the skills of selling and persuasion which many books have been written about and certain character types have a natural affinity for.
I have years of experience in high-end retail sales and a subsequent decade of experience in high-dollar niche sales. In all of my jobs my entire life I've worked 100% commission.
Here's the thing both your and the parent's comment are missing: sales isn't about persuasion or communication, it's about listening.
Here's the thing both your and the parent's comment are missing: sales isn't about persuasion or communication, it's about listening.
My comment had no need to drill down into the various factors involved in the process, so it was no more "missing" than any other of them; the point was clearly to counter the idea it's not an actual talent or skill; you would have picked that up if you'd "listened" :).
Nah. My point is that most people off the street assume salesmanship is about touting your product effectively. Anyone can talk a big game.
Making people feel heard, and then specifically responding to their pain is the real answer. Yours and many other comments on this page make the same mistake, which is based on a widely-prevalent flawed assumption that is almost universal among the general population.
Making people feel heard, and then specifically responding to their pain is the real answer. Yours and many other comments on this page make the same mistake, which is based on a widely-prevalent flawed assumption that is almost universal among the general population.
I'm a big proponent of Sandler's methodology. The book is cheap and an excellent read. I use the things I learned in it every day:
https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Teach-Ride-Bike-Seminar/dp/09671...
https://www.amazon.com/Cant-Teach-Ride-Bike-Seminar/dp/09671...
Hi,
Sales Director, previously head BDM roles and direct sales.
You are correct in thinking that it is a pivotal skill, anyone can learn. To add some simplified advice you learn by doing (as you've guessed).
You can read books, take classes etc, but so much of the practise is about interrupting the scenario and adjusting.
To get some practise with a full-time job, living abroad etc, do what you can. Obviously you aren't meeting in person, but try your hand at email outreach, cold calling, linkedIn messaging.
Unsure if you have a product or service to sell as yet, if not, make one up, think about whom the customers are, research the companies, understand the structure, try and understand how a purchasing decision is made at ABC company, and work backwards.
Never assume anything, details details details.
Sales Director, previously head BDM roles and direct sales.
You are correct in thinking that it is a pivotal skill, anyone can learn. To add some simplified advice you learn by doing (as you've guessed).
You can read books, take classes etc, but so much of the practise is about interrupting the scenario and adjusting.
To get some practise with a full-time job, living abroad etc, do what you can. Obviously you aren't meeting in person, but try your hand at email outreach, cold calling, linkedIn messaging.
Unsure if you have a product or service to sell as yet, if not, make one up, think about whom the customers are, research the companies, understand the structure, try and understand how a purchasing decision is made at ABC company, and work backwards.
Never assume anything, details details details.
Sales to me is being honest, knowing when to break the corporate line, working outside of the job description to build trust (doing things like suggesting alternative solutions that may or may not include our product), and deliberately not knowing everything.
Your customer is the domain expert, not you, and you're their opportunity to further their expertise, and their representation inside their company.
It's fluffy, but in general it's hard to be tangible about something that is human to human. So I think selling is about being easy to talk to, and giving more than you take from the relationship.
(For context I was working on sales of 50k-1M)
Your customer is the domain expert, not you, and you're their opportunity to further their expertise, and their representation inside their company.
It's fluffy, but in general it's hard to be tangible about something that is human to human. So I think selling is about being easy to talk to, and giving more than you take from the relationship.
(For context I was working on sales of 50k-1M)
Whatever you do needs to come off as genuine. Some sales people use their humour and likability to sell, others try to come across more professional and trustable. I guess to some extent it depends on what you're selling too, but I don't think all sales techniques would work well for all people. If you look like you're trying to run a sales routine on someone they'll see right through it.
I'm not great at sales, but for me working in a computer shop when I was younger helped me a lot. The key I found there was understand the customer's needs and reassuring them that you know what the right product for them is. If you know what you're selling and have confidence in the products you're recommending the customer will be likely to trust your judgement.
But I guess this wouldn't apply to all sales. I had the luxury of the customer already looking for a product so I was really just there to assist and reassure them. If you're cold selling my guess is that your personality will be far more important. In those cases you'll need people to first like you enough to hear you out. As someone who's introverted and a bit socially awkward I doubt I'll ever be great at that side of sales, but I'm sure a little door to door sales or similar would go a long way if I ever wanted to practise that.
A lot of sales is just good social skill though. Just trying to start and hold conversations with strangers would probably give you 90% of what you need to be a good sales person.
I'm not great at sales, but for me working in a computer shop when I was younger helped me a lot. The key I found there was understand the customer's needs and reassuring them that you know what the right product for them is. If you know what you're selling and have confidence in the products you're recommending the customer will be likely to trust your judgement.
But I guess this wouldn't apply to all sales. I had the luxury of the customer already looking for a product so I was really just there to assist and reassure them. If you're cold selling my guess is that your personality will be far more important. In those cases you'll need people to first like you enough to hear you out. As someone who's introverted and a bit socially awkward I doubt I'll ever be great at that side of sales, but I'm sure a little door to door sales or similar would go a long way if I ever wanted to practise that.
A lot of sales is just good social skill though. Just trying to start and hold conversations with strangers would probably give you 90% of what you need to be a good sales person.
I recommend "The Introvert's Edge". The premise is to break down sales into a process, measure then iterate.
For me it removed a lot of the sleazyness feeling I had associated with selling.
For me it removed a lot of the sleazyness feeling I had associated with selling.
I recommend Kathy Sierra’s Badass, making users awesome.
The gist is, no one cares about the thing you're trying to sell.
anyone considering your offering is trying to get something done. Help them get their job done so well that they feel awesome about it.
The book is not fluff. Highly recommended.
Also look into the job at o be done framework.
The gist is, no one cares about the thing you're trying to sell.
anyone considering your offering is trying to get something done. Help them get their job done so well that they feel awesome about it.
The book is not fluff. Highly recommended.
Also look into the job at o be done framework.
I suppose this framing may be generally true, but there's nuance that has very little to do with their nominal job in many cases. For instance, if you're selling a solution to certain ecosystems of software engineers, then you're not selling them a thing for the job they have. You're selling them a thing for the next job they want, that they want an excuse to play with at the job they're at.
All of which is to say, it's not always enough to look at a person's tasks and work to find high-value "pain points". Often you need to look more closely and a bit obliquely what their actual ambitions might be, and sell to that.
All of which is to say, it's not always enough to look at a person's tasks and work to find high-value "pain points". Often you need to look more closely and a bit obliquely what their actual ambitions might be, and sell to that.
Skimmed the through the book, I felt the book is great about how to build a product, but selling is an orthogonal art. Unless you belive "Build and they will come".
Selling is especially important if you are in any kind of B2B business where the user doesn't necessarily make the buying decision. For example, if a company is buying a Customer Support software, the executive making the decision won't probably be using the software on day to day basis.
Selling is especially important if you are in any kind of B2B business where the user doesn't necessarily make the buying decision. For example, if a company is buying a Customer Support software, the executive making the decision won't probably be using the software on day to day basis.
Read SPIN Selling and The Challenger Sale. Only 2 good sales books, takes a reasonably sophisticated approach of interviewing salespeople and then doing PCA on their responses to generate clusters of sales behavior and then noting "the challengers" are most successful.
You can start by practicing selling ideas in your current employer or situation or non-profit.
My observation is Sales success is about understanding someone’s needs, more than pushing a product. As such, listening is much more important than speaking.
My observation is Sales success is about understanding someone’s needs, more than pushing a product. As such, listening is much more important than speaking.
This is the way.
Selling is about solving someone else's problem.
Some of the answers here say to start with benefits, not features. Those are missing the first step. If someone comes into a car dealership and the salesperson starts selling them on the benefits of a sportscar (you'll feel young and will get places quickly), they're going to lose the customer who came in with a problem of having six kids and four dogs and no way to get them all places. The salesperson who finds that out will be able to help get them into a minivan or SUV that's a good fit.
The same is true of selling yourself - it's not about showing them you're great, it's about showing them how you can solve their problem. Find out why they're hiring for this position as well as what they expect the person they hire to do when they start. Once you know those things, you can explain how you'll be able to get in and do what they need, as opposed to just telling them that you're a great employee.
Selling is about solving someone else's problem.
Some of the answers here say to start with benefits, not features. Those are missing the first step. If someone comes into a car dealership and the salesperson starts selling them on the benefits of a sportscar (you'll feel young and will get places quickly), they're going to lose the customer who came in with a problem of having six kids and four dogs and no way to get them all places. The salesperson who finds that out will be able to help get them into a minivan or SUV that's a good fit.
The same is true of selling yourself - it's not about showing them you're great, it's about showing them how you can solve their problem. Find out why they're hiring for this position as well as what they expect the person they hire to do when they start. Once you know those things, you can explain how you'll be able to get in and do what they need, as opposed to just telling them that you're a great employee.
The book "To Sell is Human" is surprisingly good:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0087GJ8KM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
It focuses on selling as a means of convincing people of your argument, whether a monetary transaction is the goal or not. I really enjoyed it. A company I used to work for offered a small bonus for having read the book inside a month. I figured if it was that important to them, I'd read it. I was glad I did! Plus I got a few bucks extra. That really sold me on the idea.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0087GJ8KM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
It focuses on selling as a means of convincing people of your argument, whether a monetary transaction is the goal or not. I really enjoyed it. A company I used to work for offered a small bonus for having read the book inside a month. I figured if it was that important to them, I'd read it. I was glad I did! Plus I got a few bucks extra. That really sold me on the idea.
Remember that it’s about them, not you. Just because you find a feature useful doesn’t mean they will care. I can’t tell you how many software sales folks have come by hammering me about some feature of their software that they found really great that my team couldn’t have cared less about.
And make your customers personal when you can. Nothing makes a vendor less interesting then when I see an email begin “Hello, “ and then go into some spiel where they say they could save me millions without realizing I already have most of their genius already implemented through another tool.
And make your customers personal when you can. Nothing makes a vendor less interesting then when I see an email begin “Hello, “ and then go into some spiel where they say they could save me millions without realizing I already have most of their genius already implemented through another tool.
Quoting a comment I posted on here some time ago
You can learn about the theory of sales, I’ll leave the others to post it. Long time sales specialist here: Sales is situational and hard to generalise. There is an important social aspect to sales. You need to know your customer and be able to read their reactions. All individual customers are, well, individuals. They react differently, have different expectations and bring different experience and behaviour to the table. You need to adjust during conversation and be prepared for the worst case scenarios.
You can learn about the theory of sales, I’ll leave the others to post it. Long time sales specialist here: Sales is situational and hard to generalise. There is an important social aspect to sales. You need to know your customer and be able to read their reactions. All individual customers are, well, individuals. They react differently, have different expectations and bring different experience and behaviour to the table. You need to adjust during conversation and be prepared for the worst case scenarios.
I recommend the book: The Challenger Sale. ...Know your domain really well, and know how your customer could fail in coming years. With their best interests prioritized, be comfortable challenging them to boldly step up their game. (This approach only works out financially if you're selling an awesome product / service!)
[deleted]
I suggest you start browsing https://old.reddit.com/r/sales
Maybe start selling something that fits your schedule. This is a skill you learn by doing rather than by reading. Do note that selling has a lot to do with how you think of yourself. Best of luck
Maybe start selling something that fits your schedule. This is a skill you learn by doing rather than by reading. Do note that selling has a lot to do with how you think of yourself. Best of luck
Related but ten years ago I got a lot of value out of this “Pitching Hacks” document from Venture Hacks.
https://venturehacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Pitching...
https://venturehacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Pitching...
What I learned from personal endeavour about selling is this: "People are not able to sell because they sell!"
Sounds odd, but keeping this in mind makes "selling" easy. I learnt this accidently. I personally don't have any sales background. Few years ago I volunteered for one of my employer's internal volunteering project. The sales team of the company use to conduct every year a volunteering program one month before Christmas to boost company sales. They use to take non-sales people from the company and give them opportunity to sell directly to customers in brick-and-mortar stores. As I had no sales background, I decided to volunteer to understand what sales is really about. We were not given any training and asked to talk to the store manager(s) what they expect from the volunteer. Nothing special was expected. The only brief received was that sell computers and accessories. So I started on the shop floor trying to sell the goods. At the end of the volunteering period I received an award from my employer for selling most computers that year by a volunteer!
So how did I do it? Well, because I did not have sales background, I did the only thing I was good at: inform, educate, guide, redirect and if still interested sell(this was not required on my part because by this time the customer was already willing to pay)! I did not try to sell anything to anyone. I just honestly informed them about the products, educated them about various parts in the product, guided them to different product(s) or to help them with decision making by asking them questions about what they really wanted, even informing them if something was not suitable for them, and if there was no product I could offer, I would redirect them to other stores. This built the credibility and people use to directly walk to me bypassing the regular staff at the stores. I was able to "sell" without any "selling efforts". I just offered them "help" rather than a "product". I couldn't believe myself that I was able to sell 24 computers(few very expensive computers) in just 2 weekends at three different stores in the city!
It was a revelation to me!
Sounds odd, but keeping this in mind makes "selling" easy. I learnt this accidently. I personally don't have any sales background. Few years ago I volunteered for one of my employer's internal volunteering project. The sales team of the company use to conduct every year a volunteering program one month before Christmas to boost company sales. They use to take non-sales people from the company and give them opportunity to sell directly to customers in brick-and-mortar stores. As I had no sales background, I decided to volunteer to understand what sales is really about. We were not given any training and asked to talk to the store manager(s) what they expect from the volunteer. Nothing special was expected. The only brief received was that sell computers and accessories. So I started on the shop floor trying to sell the goods. At the end of the volunteering period I received an award from my employer for selling most computers that year by a volunteer!
So how did I do it? Well, because I did not have sales background, I did the only thing I was good at: inform, educate, guide, redirect and if still interested sell(this was not required on my part because by this time the customer was already willing to pay)! I did not try to sell anything to anyone. I just honestly informed them about the products, educated them about various parts in the product, guided them to different product(s) or to help them with decision making by asking them questions about what they really wanted, even informing them if something was not suitable for them, and if there was no product I could offer, I would redirect them to other stores. This built the credibility and people use to directly walk to me bypassing the regular staff at the stores. I was able to "sell" without any "selling efforts". I just offered them "help" rather than a "product". I couldn't believe myself that I was able to sell 24 computers(few very expensive computers) in just 2 weekends at three different stores in the city!
It was a revelation to me!
There are different types of selling. I worked for IBM from 1984 to 1992 and they had an entire training process for their customer-facing people that included a two week sales school for reps at the end. It was tailored to enterprise sales which are specialized but many of the techniques apply to other types of selling, especially high ticket items. There is an older book out there called How to Master the Art of Selling by a guy (Hopkins?) that is pretty close. It covers the cycle including skills like objection handling. It's very effective.
I got this book recommendation from NPR many years ago:
The Art of the Sale: Learning from the Masters About the Business of Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GSYZZM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_...
Definitely a great read. I’m not a sales person but this definitely was a good intro and new perspective into that field.
A gross oversimplification is:
- have customers to sell to
- remember that you don't sell, customers buy
- it's easier to sell something people both need & want
Personally I find cost effective lead generation is the harder problem to solve. So get good at lead generation (aka having customers to talk to) & then you can practice converting them into paying customers. Trying practice selling to customers you don't have is like trying to be good at washing a car you haven't purchased yet.
- have customers to sell to
- remember that you don't sell, customers buy
- it's easier to sell something people both need & want
Personally I find cost effective lead generation is the harder problem to solve. So get good at lead generation (aka having customers to talk to) & then you can practice converting them into paying customers. Trying practice selling to customers you don't have is like trying to be good at washing a car you haven't purchased yet.
I would suggest reading Grant cardones Sell or Be sold. Don't like the guy but the book is really good.
The number 1 thing I learned from this book was you have to learn that selling is basically helping people and #2 that your product is the best thing for your customer, i.e. you should be convinced that there is nothing better in the world at the moment to help your customer.
When you truly and honestly believe that selling becomes easy.
The number 1 thing I learned from this book was you have to learn that selling is basically helping people and #2 that your product is the best thing for your customer, i.e. you should be convinced that there is nothing better in the world at the moment to help your customer.
When you truly and honestly believe that selling becomes easy.
So lie to yourself and others. Yeah that's why we don't like sales.
Sorry I don't follow. When did I or the book say anything about lying to people?
Could it be not possible that a product can actually help a person get what s/he wants? Or be the best thing to suit their needs. Do you have an objection to that statement?
I actually believe my product is the best fit for my target (not everybody but a very small niche of few thousand people in this world). When I find those persons it indeed feels very easy to sell my product to them and also get repeat business.
Could it be not possible that a product can actually help a person get what s/he wants? Or be the best thing to suit their needs. Do you have an objection to that statement?
I actually believe my product is the best fit for my target (not everybody but a very small niche of few thousand people in this world). When I find those persons it indeed feels very easy to sell my product to them and also get repeat business.
It’s not lying. You need to keep your customers interests in mind.
I’m happy to lose a sale when there’s a genuinely better solution for the customer problem. I’ve had conversations with prospects on multiple occasions where I’ve directed them to a company with better solutions.
I’ve found that the people I’ve had those conversations with actually will come back when there is another issue that our products can help with.
I’m happy to lose a sale when there’s a genuinely better solution for the customer problem. I’ve had conversations with prospects on multiple occasions where I’ve directed them to a company with better solutions.
I’ve found that the people I’ve had those conversations with actually will come back when there is another issue that our products can help with.
Yet you rely on other people selling your work.
I disagree. Some of the wealthiest and most successful ppl such as Zuckerberg and Larry Page never sold anything . They started by creating a service that was superior to competitors and that everyone wanted. Start with that instead. Sales come later. Selling is not also really hard but margins are thin. Facebook, Apple, and Google by creating the platform, where able to command the price they wanted.
I disagree. Zuckerberg got a $500k investment from Thiel when he has little, promised 10% week on week growth. This doesn't just naturally happen; it needs epic selling skill. It was a loan that was later converted to an investment - this shows that Thiel wasn't entirely convinced at first too but gave the money.
The investments that came later probably didn't need as much selling skills.
The investments that came later probably didn't need as much selling skills.
They both sold themselves and their vision to investors. I guess that might seem pedantic but I don't think it is.
this makes sense to me too.
it's easier to sell whatever you're trying to sell if it's of high quality
it's easier to sell whatever you're trying to sell if it's of high quality
I learned from Tom Hopkins. He breaks the sales cycle down into a process that anyone can follow. It's been years since I listened to his cassette tapes in my car. You can find more current materials at tomhopkins.com.
His process applies to more than just sales. Some of his techniques are great for persuasion and negotiation. Everyone should learn some sales techniques. You are smart to do this.
His process applies to more than just sales. Some of his techniques are great for persuasion and negotiation. Everyone should learn some sales techniques. You are smart to do this.
I'm sure it can be great, but to me listening to selr-help cassette tapes in your car evokes a profound sadness
LOL, the sales training was required by my company and I listened during my commute.
I am a career software engineer who successfully learned how to sell. Specifically, high-ticket ($3k-5k) B2C sales. Starting from having absolutely no sales skills in December 2019, I managed to reach a close rate of close to near 50% for well-qualified leads by early this year.
There is a great deal of advice already in this thread. If you have any specific questions, ask and I will answer if I can.
There is a great deal of advice already in this thread. If you have any specific questions, ask and I will answer if I can.
As a software developer, one of the things that I feel that always holds me back when selling something I made (an MVP for example) is knowing all the things that the software can't do or is not super polished.
How do you sell something when you yourself might have doubts about the product? not because it's not good, but because you know it can be improved?
Obviously you can't wait until the product is "perfect" because that will never happen and there will always be things that are slightly broken or unpolished, etc. so how do you get those first sales that might give you the push you need to keep going (financially, emotionally, etc) with an "unfinishd" product?
How do you sell something when you yourself might have doubts about the product? not because it's not good, but because you know it can be improved?
Obviously you can't wait until the product is "perfect" because that will never happen and there will always be things that are slightly broken or unpolished, etc. so how do you get those first sales that might give you the push you need to keep going (financially, emotionally, etc) with an "unfinishd" product?
First, don't assume something is a shortcoming in their mind unless they indicate it. Odds are HIGH you are being nitpicky about things that are just not a big deal to them.
Second, develop a more positive focus.
More specifically: get out of your head about some ideal that may never be real. Look at the product in terms of what it can actually do, NOW, and the benefits people will get from it, NOW.
Focus on how it will help them, in its current form, and communicate that.
When you do this, it is easy to be up front about what it will NOT do. In fact, in most of my sales calls, there is at least one point where the prospect expresses an expectation that it will do something for them that it doesn't. I immediately, directly, almost forcefully call that out. "Let me clarify, it will not do X. That is not what it is for. It will instead do Y for you, which lets you do Z." (This is just me being my normal, brutally-honest self, but from a sales-tactic perspective it builds credibility and trust.)
Focus on how the product can benefit them, in your thinking and your communication, and then it's easy to be up front about the rest. Otherwise you can never help people who need what you are selling more than they need that money.
Second, develop a more positive focus.
More specifically: get out of your head about some ideal that may never be real. Look at the product in terms of what it can actually do, NOW, and the benefits people will get from it, NOW.
Focus on how it will help them, in its current form, and communicate that.
When you do this, it is easy to be up front about what it will NOT do. In fact, in most of my sales calls, there is at least one point where the prospect expresses an expectation that it will do something for them that it doesn't. I immediately, directly, almost forcefully call that out. "Let me clarify, it will not do X. That is not what it is for. It will instead do Y for you, which lets you do Z." (This is just me being my normal, brutally-honest self, but from a sales-tactic perspective it builds credibility and trust.)
Focus on how the product can benefit them, in your thinking and your communication, and then it's easy to be up front about the rest. Otherwise you can never help people who need what you are selling more than they need that money.
Ah, that makes sense.
It seems obvious but I guess I've seen too many salespeople tell the customer whatever they want to hear and I loathe that as it's definitely dishonest, so I felt like I would need to do the same to be able to sell, but apparently that's just a misconception on my part.
Thanks for the advice!
It seems obvious but I guess I've seen too many salespeople tell the customer whatever they want to hear and I loathe that as it's definitely dishonest, so I felt like I would need to do the same to be able to sell, but apparently that's just a misconception on my part.
Thanks for the advice!
> How do you sell something when you yourself might have doubts about the product? not because it's not good, but because you know it can be improved?
I would say one of the strengths of the product is that there is a clear path to improving it. Maybe just present the "roadmap" to the customer.
I would say one of the strengths of the product is that there is a clear path to improving it. Maybe just present the "roadmap" to the customer.
Yeah, that sounds like it could work.
I guess that if the customer wants a feature further down the roadmap then it really isn't solving their problem yet so perhaps I should wait.
I guess that if the customer wants a feature further down the roadmap then it really isn't solving their problem yet so perhaps I should wait.
I took the Adele Carnegie course years ago. It was really good. My cohort included someone who worked for KLA Tencor (minimum deal in the millions, 18-24 month sales cycle, team sales), someone who sold ADT alarms, a couple of guys who ran a T shirt stand on the beach. The skills we learned were mostly the same for all of us.
The underlying skill of sales is connecting with people. Some people are naturals, others can improve dramatically. Take a course like this: https://view.life/, or any other 'personal development' course someone you trust recommends.
If you have to try to convince people, you're doing sales wrong.
If your goal is to make money from sales, find out what people want and give it to them. They will be coming to you with money ready to pay, if you are offering what they already want. So to sell, find out what people want and then offer it up for a price.
If your goal is to make money from sales, find out what people want and give it to them. They will be coming to you with money ready to pay, if you are offering what they already want. So to sell, find out what people want and then offer it up for a price.
I really like this book “resistance is useless” by an English author, Geoff Birch:
https://www.geoffburch.com/?page_id=56
I thinks it’s a sensible common sense approach to learning how to sell
If you are looking for specific recommendations of books to read, when I used to do sales I was always told to read Zig Ziglar’s ‘The Art of Closing the Sale’. It seems to be the gold standard. Or maybe start with ‘Selling 101’. Either way you can’t go wrong with advice from Ziglar.
I think your question might be too broad. Segment your query into quadrants, deal type (transactional sales vs. strategic) and customer type (retail, smb vs. enterprise). Strategic enterprise selling is very different than transactional smb.
Here's an article with lessons from Seth Godin, Derek Sivers, and Simon Sinek:
https://optimizemy.life/sell/
https://optimizemy.life/sell/
So how to learn how to sell? Seems like you're starting, and some here are suggesting books. There's also classes, but I would say that classes are not necessary, unless you need external feedback on how you're doing on the fundamentals. What I want to emphasize here is actual practice.
So I would engage in some kind of activity that involves getting out and asking people to make decisions for you. Start making careful and reasonable pitches at work (be careful not to undermine your credibility in your current job, though). Maybe you canvas neighborhoods with petitions for your favorite causes. Or get into membership drives for your favorite organizations. Just in general, try to get into situations that require you to exercise the muscle of asking people to make decisions for you.
So specifics:
- read books on it (I've read too many to count, and there are diminishing returns - so many are about telling stories and scripts for asking for the sale, but I like The Wedge for its emphasis on taking sophisticated business from your competition)
- take a college course on it (I took personal sales at FSU, undergrad - great experience - and there was sales school for my door to door sales job when I graduated from high school)
- actually do it (I sold books door to door to get my feet wet, ran club membership tables and campaigned for my fellow students in college, then I sold financial services until I burned out on sales and went into grad school and programming)
Practice is important, but so is theory.
To be successful you need:
- Credibility (ethos) is about your reputation and professional appearance and delivery.
- Enthusiasm (pathos) is the energy you need to meet people where they are emotionally and help them see how the product solves their problems.
- Knowledge (logos) includes the information you learn about your product as well as intelligence you gather on your prospect on how their problems can be solved with your product.
Don't worry too much about getting started in sales early. I realized a bit too late that I was doing financial sales without the necessary credibility to be successful in the way I wanted to do business - I should have done my MBA and other financial studies first. And I also realized that I would not be as successful in sales as I could be as a technologist - I have a real problem telling people they're right when I know they aren't - but learning how to deal with interpersonal disagreement was an important goal I had for wanting to work in sales in the first place.
So I would engage in some kind of activity that involves getting out and asking people to make decisions for you. Start making careful and reasonable pitches at work (be careful not to undermine your credibility in your current job, though). Maybe you canvas neighborhoods with petitions for your favorite causes. Or get into membership drives for your favorite organizations. Just in general, try to get into situations that require you to exercise the muscle of asking people to make decisions for you.
So specifics:
- read books on it (I've read too many to count, and there are diminishing returns - so many are about telling stories and scripts for asking for the sale, but I like The Wedge for its emphasis on taking sophisticated business from your competition)
- take a college course on it (I took personal sales at FSU, undergrad - great experience - and there was sales school for my door to door sales job when I graduated from high school)
- actually do it (I sold books door to door to get my feet wet, ran club membership tables and campaigned for my fellow students in college, then I sold financial services until I burned out on sales and went into grad school and programming)
Practice is important, but so is theory.
To be successful you need:
- Credibility (ethos) is about your reputation and professional appearance and delivery.
- Enthusiasm (pathos) is the energy you need to meet people where they are emotionally and help them see how the product solves their problems.
- Knowledge (logos) includes the information you learn about your product as well as intelligence you gather on your prospect on how their problems can be solved with your product.
Don't worry too much about getting started in sales early. I realized a bit too late that I was doing financial sales without the necessary credibility to be successful in the way I wanted to do business - I should have done my MBA and other financial studies first. And I also realized that I would not be as successful in sales as I could be as a technologist - I have a real problem telling people they're right when I know they aren't - but learning how to deal with interpersonal disagreement was an important goal I had for wanting to work in sales in the first place.
Selling is mostly about communications. So, in the context of sales, it requires you:
1) Understand what you're trying to communicate. What are you selling, what are the benefits? Why should the audience care?
2) Understand who you're communicating with. Their desires, their constraints, their knowledge level, do they trust you, how much do they care?
One thing I've learned over the years is that any single particular sales approach/tactic/strategy will not be suitable across all markets and situations. Sometimes it's best to coldly list features. Other times it's best to develop a personal rapport. And yet other times it's best to focus on customer problems/product benefits. Pay attention to your audience and adjust how you approach them based on who they are.
TLDR: to learn how to sell better, learn how to communicate more effectively.
1) Understand what you're trying to communicate. What are you selling, what are the benefits? Why should the audience care?
2) Understand who you're communicating with. Their desires, their constraints, their knowledge level, do they trust you, how much do they care?
One thing I've learned over the years is that any single particular sales approach/tactic/strategy will not be suitable across all markets and situations. Sometimes it's best to coldly list features. Other times it's best to develop a personal rapport. And yet other times it's best to focus on customer problems/product benefits. Pay attention to your audience and adjust how you approach them based on who they are.
TLDR: to learn how to sell better, learn how to communicate more effectively.
Read Og Mandino: The best salesman in the world
Great framework. Clearly practice and such over time, but this is a great way to start with some core principles.
Been a long time since I had my hand in any selling activity, but the book that most helped me was,
Freeze, Thomas. Secrets of Question-Based Selling. Naperville, IL: Sourcebooks. 2000
YMMV
Freeze, Thomas. Secrets of Question-Based Selling. Naperville, IL: Sourcebooks. 2000
YMMV
Volunteer for a fundraiser. Firefighters, or whatever.
Low pressure. Fast past. You’ll get used to rejection quickly.
Rich dad poor dad book had a whole chapter on it.
Low pressure. Fast past. You’ll get used to rejection quickly.
Rich dad poor dad book had a whole chapter on it.
The book Founding Sales is an excellent read.
Know your product.
Qualify your prospect.
Present your solution.
Prove value. Overcome objectives. Ask for the sale.
Prove value. Overcome objectives. Ask for the sale.
Overcome /objections/?
Find a problem the customer is having, and show the solution.
Me eating popcorn and read all of other cool comments
[deleted]
Many years ago, I did 6 months of sales training. They were training me to sell mainframes; but they told me that if you have product familiarity, a salesman can sell anything.
Sales didn't suit me, for several reasons. I don't agree that everyone should have sales skills. I mean product sales; I'm talking about selling stuff for money. I don't regard "selling" yourself or your ideas as "sales". My remarks below concern product sales, not selling yourself, your ideas or your visions. That's a different game.
I moved to pre-sales support. But I've worked a lot with salesmen over the years, which I enjoyed.
What I learned about was selling to large organisations. I learned that the deal-cycle is long; it might take a couple of years to clinch a deal. Once the deal comes in, the commission packet is big - colleagues I trained with were driving around in Porsches in a couple of years. But I didn't feel like working for a salesman's basic pay for 2 years; set aside the commission, the pay was crap. I was raising a family, and I wanted regular pay.
I worked with urbane, well-spoken and well-informed salesmen, and with sleazy hustlers. I liked all the salesmen I worked with, without exception (doesn't mean I trusted them!)
* Selling products on commission is lucrative. If you're good, then most of your pay is commission. If you're not good, then you're on salesman's basic pay, which is barely enough to live on (the employer wants to keep his salesfolk hungry). Sales is a risky trade, but the upside is huge.
* Find the decision-maker. Pitch to the engineer, not the oily rag.
* Don't be a hustler. The job consists of helping people solve problems.
* Find out what problems the organisation is facing. Consultancy firms do this all the time. People will tell you their problems, even if they don't have budget to spend. Listen to them.
* Sell the benefits, not the features. This is closely-related to helping the customer. To sell the benefits, you neeed to know what problems the customer needs solving.
* Assuming it's the tech field, befriend a tame sales-support engineer. You can install him in the customer premises to help them, while you go off networking. He will help you write proposals. He might organise a pilot project.
* Find a useful friend/advocate in the customer's organisation, and look after him. He will introduce you to people with problems.
I can't negotiate my way out of a wet paper bag. Negotiating is an important skill. It's not really the same as sales - a big company might bring in a specialist negotiator once you've closed. But in a lot of sales, the salesman has to do their own negotiating.
Sales didn't suit me, for several reasons. I don't agree that everyone should have sales skills. I mean product sales; I'm talking about selling stuff for money. I don't regard "selling" yourself or your ideas as "sales". My remarks below concern product sales, not selling yourself, your ideas or your visions. That's a different game.
I moved to pre-sales support. But I've worked a lot with salesmen over the years, which I enjoyed.
What I learned about was selling to large organisations. I learned that the deal-cycle is long; it might take a couple of years to clinch a deal. Once the deal comes in, the commission packet is big - colleagues I trained with were driving around in Porsches in a couple of years. But I didn't feel like working for a salesman's basic pay for 2 years; set aside the commission, the pay was crap. I was raising a family, and I wanted regular pay.
I worked with urbane, well-spoken and well-informed salesmen, and with sleazy hustlers. I liked all the salesmen I worked with, without exception (doesn't mean I trusted them!)
* Selling products on commission is lucrative. If you're good, then most of your pay is commission. If you're not good, then you're on salesman's basic pay, which is barely enough to live on (the employer wants to keep his salesfolk hungry). Sales is a risky trade, but the upside is huge.
* Find the decision-maker. Pitch to the engineer, not the oily rag.
* Don't be a hustler. The job consists of helping people solve problems.
* Find out what problems the organisation is facing. Consultancy firms do this all the time. People will tell you their problems, even if they don't have budget to spend. Listen to them.
* Sell the benefits, not the features. This is closely-related to helping the customer. To sell the benefits, you neeed to know what problems the customer needs solving.
* Assuming it's the tech field, befriend a tame sales-support engineer. You can install him in the customer premises to help them, while you go off networking. He will help you write proposals. He might organise a pilot project.
* Find a useful friend/advocate in the customer's organisation, and look after him. He will introduce you to people with problems.
I can't negotiate my way out of a wet paper bag. Negotiating is an important skill. It's not really the same as sales - a big company might bring in a specialist negotiator once you've closed. But in a lot of sales, the salesman has to do their own negotiating.
I know EXACTLY what you mean!
A short story...
A few years ago I built a web/mobile app for local resource sharing. Books, tools, etc. It looked great, felt great and had a few decent reviews. But I was building it with a big mental flaw: I avoided selling/marketing the thing. I was convinced that "organic" growth would make for a healthier marketplace. Given the opportunity to go "network" or even share the idea in a public forum or work on a bug/feature...you'd find me centered in emacs coding away.
Needless to say, I had to spin it down after failing to grow the community but successfully growing a hole in my pocket.
Fast forward a few years later. I'm fully employed and enjoy my work but still have the itch to build something of my own. This time, I want to learn from my previous mistakes so I start dreaming up projects that will FORCE me to get better at those skills I was avoiding (selling/marketing). Something where I wouldn't be tempted with feature-creep.
That project is https://24hourhomepage.com and I recently gave a talk about all these feelings/learnings at js.la: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WFZ4b7s4Y
To summarize: - Design a project you find fun, provides value for others and is easy enough to maintain/grow on your nights/weekends - Hold yourself publicly accountable. I've been writing my learnings every week since launch (launch post: https://higgins.medium.com/24hourhomepage-com-an-experiment-...) - Try "Rejection Therapy"! Seriously, this helps me so much in getting over those moments of hesitation asking for "the sale" - Try a public challenge like http://100in100.co. You'll get grouped with other entrepreneurs who are learning just like you - Determine who your "big fish" user/customer is and don't give up on getting them to join until they explicitly tell you they aren't interested. - Talk to experts about your journey. I interviewed 15+ professional marketers http://netnetsynergy.com/ just to get a feel for how I could be doing better. - Don't give up! Maybe you need to take a large break, but you'll come back recharged and with new ideas.
Honestly, this whole journey has given me a new appreciation for the mental "grit" of salespeople who can go for large periods without a sale.
I hope you come up with a fun sales project; let HN know when you do!
A short story...
A few years ago I built a web/mobile app for local resource sharing. Books, tools, etc. It looked great, felt great and had a few decent reviews. But I was building it with a big mental flaw: I avoided selling/marketing the thing. I was convinced that "organic" growth would make for a healthier marketplace. Given the opportunity to go "network" or even share the idea in a public forum or work on a bug/feature...you'd find me centered in emacs coding away.
Needless to say, I had to spin it down after failing to grow the community but successfully growing a hole in my pocket.
Fast forward a few years later. I'm fully employed and enjoy my work but still have the itch to build something of my own. This time, I want to learn from my previous mistakes so I start dreaming up projects that will FORCE me to get better at those skills I was avoiding (selling/marketing). Something where I wouldn't be tempted with feature-creep.
That project is https://24hourhomepage.com and I recently gave a talk about all these feelings/learnings at js.la: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WFZ4b7s4Y
To summarize: - Design a project you find fun, provides value for others and is easy enough to maintain/grow on your nights/weekends - Hold yourself publicly accountable. I've been writing my learnings every week since launch (launch post: https://higgins.medium.com/24hourhomepage-com-an-experiment-...) - Try "Rejection Therapy"! Seriously, this helps me so much in getting over those moments of hesitation asking for "the sale" - Try a public challenge like http://100in100.co. You'll get grouped with other entrepreneurs who are learning just like you - Determine who your "big fish" user/customer is and don't give up on getting them to join until they explicitly tell you they aren't interested. - Talk to experts about your journey. I interviewed 15+ professional marketers http://netnetsynergy.com/ just to get a feel for how I could be doing better. - Don't give up! Maybe you need to take a large break, but you'll come back recharged and with new ideas.
Honestly, this whole journey has given me a new appreciation for the mental "grit" of salespeople who can go for large periods without a sale.
I hope you come up with a fun sales project; let HN know when you do!
However I see no easy way to learn how to sell. For sure the direct way seems preferable (learning by doing), but having a job already + living abroad makes it a bit hard.
Any tips would appreciated.