Australian military to help enforce Sydney Covid-19 lockdown as cases rise(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Australian military to help enforce Sydney Covid-19 lockdown as cases rise
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/australia-pm-says-vaccinations-alone-will-not-end-sydneys-covid-19-lockdown-2021-07-28/
60 comments
Australia is a wealthy, well connected country. Is there a good explainer somewhere of why it's so far behind on the vaccine roll out? Looking at Canada, which I'd naively place in a similar category, and they're over 80%.
federal government incompetence and malice. they hoped a locally developed vaccine would work, but it didn't. they hoped AZ produced locally would work, then poisoned the well by talking it down and allowing old people to *choose* which vaccine they got, and then failed to actually roll it out - until this week under 40s in NSW needed to have a GP appointment to get assessed for if they could receive the AZ vaccine.
the tiny stocks of Pfizer have been pissed up a wall - there's currently a hare brained plan to use it to vaccinate 17 and 18 year old so they can take their end of school exams in person.
the tiny stocks of Pfizer have been pissed up a wall - there's currently a hare brained plan to use it to vaccinate 17 and 18 year old so they can take their end of school exams in person.
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We ordered Pfizer and AstraZenica vaccines but due to the rare blood clot issues in some younger people with AstraZenica, the government restricted that to over 50s.
Then when they realised that we didn't have enough Pfizer being made they tried to say that people under 50 can get it after consulting their doctor but by then they'd scared off lots of people. Pfizer is also harder to administer as it needs special refrigeration equipment.
A lot of people are also hesitant to getting the vaccine, perhaps because until recently most states apart from Victoria hadn't experienced large numbers of cases, deaths or lengthy lockdowns. That's started to change with the spread of the delta variant and more lockdowns etc.
Then when they realised that we didn't have enough Pfizer being made they tried to say that people under 50 can get it after consulting their doctor but by then they'd scared off lots of people. Pfizer is also harder to administer as it needs special refrigeration equipment.
A lot of people are also hesitant to getting the vaccine, perhaps because until recently most states apart from Victoria hadn't experienced large numbers of cases, deaths or lengthy lockdowns. That's started to change with the spread of the delta variant and more lockdowns etc.
We didn't have mass outbreaks so the population isn't really afraid of the virus. The locally produced astra-zeneca vaccine has a rare blood clot complication but the media amplified that to insanity level and now everyone is scared of getting it.
We only minimally hedged our bets on other vaccines and now have to wait until pfizer/moderna can get around to producing our order.
We only minimally hedged our bets on other vaccines and now have to wait until pfizer/moderna can get around to producing our order.
For certain populations (ie young women) the risks from AstraZeneca vaccine outweigh the risks from covid.
Old people shouldnt be scared yes, but young people should approach it with caution. And isn't that what the government is saying anyways- confirm with doctor and then get it?
Old people shouldnt be scared yes, but young people should approach it with caution. And isn't that what the government is saying anyways- confirm with doctor and then get it?
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They outweigh the risks of COVID when there is very little covid. That situation can change much faster than you can get two doses in to your arm.
Total massive cock-up plus some arrogance they had time.
It actually happened to a few countries in the APAC region. Vietnam had 2,000 cases total earlier this year and now has a nationwide curfew, 8,000 cases per day and 110,000 cases total. 5% of the population has been vaccinated.
And clearly they’ve done a better job than the US and Europe in controlling cases but mostly through some pretty draconian measures. When they shut down all eating establishments the owners are left to find alternative income.
They thought they had it under control and could wait. Clearly Vietnam is a low income country, but the economic impact has already exceeded the cost of vaccinating everyone.
It actually happened to a few countries in the APAC region. Vietnam had 2,000 cases total earlier this year and now has a nationwide curfew, 8,000 cases per day and 110,000 cases total. 5% of the population has been vaccinated.
And clearly they’ve done a better job than the US and Europe in controlling cases but mostly through some pretty draconian measures. When they shut down all eating establishments the owners are left to find alternative income.
They thought they had it under control and could wait. Clearly Vietnam is a low income country, but the economic impact has already exceeded the cost of vaccinating everyone.
Canada pre-ordered large quantities of vaccines from every credible producer quite early. So we have AZ, Pfizer, and Moderna supplies. Australia was a bit slower off the mark, comfortable with their successful island quarantine.
Canada is similar to Australia in socioeconomic political … etc
Canada 26,553 Deaths from COVID relative to Australia 920 deaths
I speculate those relative numbers played a large part in vaccine uptake difference
Canada 26,553 Deaths from COVID relative to Australia 920 deaths
I speculate those relative numbers played a large part in vaccine uptake difference
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They bought plenty of AZ (before the clotting was an issue) but now nobody wants to get it.
The reason, like almost always when things go haywire, is political leaders messed up.
> For those outside of Australia, we are are currently in the early stages of vaccine roll out, 14.1% fully vaccinated.
Consequently we are still using the blunt instruments of lockdown to solve our problems.
Presumably that 14.1% represents the vast majority of people who were at serious risk of severe illness or death from Covid. If the vaccines are effective against preventing serious hospitalizations and deaths, then this should have eliminated the possibility of the hospitals becoming overcrowded and stressed. The original justification for lockdowns was to prevent that from happening. What's the justification now?
Presumably that 14.1% represents the vast majority of people who were at serious risk of severe illness or death from Covid. If the vaccines are effective against preventing serious hospitalizations and deaths, then this should have eliminated the possibility of the hospitals becoming overcrowded and stressed. The original justification for lockdowns was to prevent that from happening. What's the justification now?
Around 15% are aged 65+, and it's possible that the hospitalisation rate for younger people is high enough that it'll still crash the system. I don't know. It starts ramping up at around 40.
Meanwhile Israel is one of the top 5 most vaccinated countries in the world and the US has a travel warning against them.
Isn’t Iceland also extremely well vaccinated and they started another lockdown?
Isn’t Iceland also extremely well vaccinated and they started another lockdown?
I also found this remarkable. The Seychelles, one of the most vaccinated countries on earth had a huge spike. It also looks like countries with strict lockdowns (UK, Belgium) are doing worse than countries with much looser restrictions like Sweden.
Of course this is cherry picking countries to fit my narrative, but at the very least it shows things aren't as black and white as often presented. Maybe thinking one is 100% protected after vaccination is what creates this issue ? Maybe vaccinated people still spread the virus like wildfire yet somehow do not require to show a negative test to board a plane or visit events?
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
The PCR tests are too sensitive [0], experts are saying that it looks like 90% of positive people may not infected or infectious and should not be counted as positive.
They are running too many cycles for these tests, making them something like 100 times more sensitive than tests for other viruses.
[0] https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/experts-us-covid-19...
They are running too many cycles for these tests, making them something like 100 times more sensitive than tests for other viruses.
[0] https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/experts-us-covid-19...
The CDC limits CT to 28 for vaccinated samples when counting breakthrough cases.
> For cases with a known RT-PCR cycle threshold (Ct) value, submit only specimens with Ct value ≤28 to CDC for sequencing. (Sequencing is not feasible with higher Ct values.)
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre...
> For cases with a known RT-PCR cycle threshold (Ct) value, submit only specimens with Ct value ≤28 to CDC for sequencing. (Sequencing is not feasible with higher Ct values.)
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre...
Interesting, so the balance is even further skewed when comparing with the unvaccinated.
There was a long period where it was promised the vaccines were going to deliver herd immunity and eliminate the virus (perhaps not by public health officials, they're too savvy for that, but they were happy not to push back against the idea as it was propagated in the popular science press), but this is being quickly walked back as it becomes clear the vaccinated can play host to large amounts of virus. It's yet another Covid bait-and-switch, just like "it's just the flu, no need to worry -> oh actually it's the most lethal virus ever and we need to lock everything down," "15 days to slow the spread -> stay at home until spring when cases come back down," and "the vaccines will get us back to normal -> oh we need you to wear masks again".
The crux of the issue is not that vaccinated people are living their lives as normal (or rather, as "normal" used to be in 2019), but that SARS-CoV-2 is an endemic seasonal virus for which there are no forms of sterilizing immunity, so it's going to keep showing up over and over as long as we are testing for it. If we then use those positive test numbers (euphemistically termed "Covid-19 cases" even though they are often not associated with any actual disease or symptoms) to justify lockdowns, school closures, etc, we will be doing them forever.
Australia's seven day average death toll from Covid is at 1, and the UK's death toll from its recent Delta wave was a mere fraction of what was seen in earlier waves. I used to think it wouldn't be possible to maintain the public's level of panic once either the vaccines, natural immunity, or the virus's natural course of evolution drove it to become less lethal. Now I'm really not so sure.
The crux of the issue is not that vaccinated people are living their lives as normal (or rather, as "normal" used to be in 2019), but that SARS-CoV-2 is an endemic seasonal virus for which there are no forms of sterilizing immunity, so it's going to keep showing up over and over as long as we are testing for it. If we then use those positive test numbers (euphemistically termed "Covid-19 cases" even though they are often not associated with any actual disease or symptoms) to justify lockdowns, school closures, etc, we will be doing them forever.
Australia's seven day average death toll from Covid is at 1, and the UK's death toll from its recent Delta wave was a mere fraction of what was seen in earlier waves. I used to think it wouldn't be possible to maintain the public's level of panic once either the vaccines, natural immunity, or the virus's natural course of evolution drove it to become less lethal. Now I'm really not so sure.
People seem to want to believe big government and lockdowns can be beneficial, but flareups and death numbers show otherwise. Somehow many people are OK living in fear, and seem to want the fear excitement to continue.
In practical terms, those who think they are at risk should stay home and isolate themselves. Cuomo in New York shoved positive cases into nursing homes, so big government policies killed vulnerable people. Take care of yourself and your diet.
In practical terms, those who think they are at risk should stay home and isolate themselves. Cuomo in New York shoved positive cases into nursing homes, so big government policies killed vulnerable people. Take care of yourself and your diet.
> People seem to want to believe big government and lockdowns can be beneficial
I'm surprised how many otherwise rational people aren't more inquisitive about the efficacy of lockdowns. Where's the proof that they have beneficial long-term impact and they're not just kicking the can down the road? It seems similar to "wonder diets", i.e. when you're not losing weight, then you're not following the diet strictly enough, and any weight you lose is magically attributed to the diet.
I'm surprised how many otherwise rational people aren't more inquisitive about the efficacy of lockdowns. Where's the proof that they have beneficial long-term impact and they're not just kicking the can down the road? It seems similar to "wonder diets", i.e. when you're not losing weight, then you're not following the diet strictly enough, and any weight you lose is magically attributed to the diet.
In the Netherlands 80% of Covid19 ICU patients are overweight. Instead of lockdowns we should have lockouts where everyone is supposed to go for a long walk.
Cause and effect is the other way around. UK had one of the strictest lockdowns because UK was extremely unwilling to lock down last autumn.
UK actually had coronavirus under control in summer 2020. Cases started rising again in September after the school holidays but the govt didn't close schools until January 4 months later, by which time the cases had ballooned to gargantuan levels, necessitating a gargantuan lockdown when the shit hit the fan.
UK actually had coronavirus under control in summer 2020. Cases started rising again in September after the school holidays but the govt didn't close schools until January 4 months later, by which time the cases had ballooned to gargantuan levels, necessitating a gargantuan lockdown when the shit hit the fan.
Also just to note how extremely unwilling the uk government was to lock down, when they closed schools in January they didn’t close them directly after the winter break. Instead they allowed all kids to go to school for one day in January and then decided to lock down when the numbers looked bad on Monday evening after all the kids had already been to school (which obviously caused a lot of spread for that one day).
The propaganda machine is currently at the stage where they won't admit that there are many break-through delta cases, they won't admit that it's common, and they don't want to loudly admit that vaccinated people are spreading the virus. The CDC & Co. have been trying to hide the explosion in delta cases since May. The intellectual con being put on by the authorities here in the US is extraordinary.
I have a friend that works as a nurse in a nursing home. The staff is tested constantly and all staff have been required to have the Pfizer BioNTech mRNA vaccine. The problem? The 100% vaccinated staff members keep testing positive for the virus - a problem that began recently with the delta spread across the US - despite full vaccination and it's making it next to impossible to operate the nursing home safely. This is the kind of thing they're still keeping out of the news and refusing to talk about (break-through cases are rare, they say; that's entirely a lie).
Authorities are terrified that if they admit the truth at this juncture (that even the mRNA vaccines don't work well against preventing delta infections, and that they only work well at preventing severe outcomes), a lot of the remaining unvaccinated won't bother to get vaccinated. And plausibly they're right about that, it would plunk new vaccination rates lower. They also don't want to admit that common masks don't work against delta, they're close to being worthless. Mask theater is a bad joke and the population has largely figured it out, the authorities here have destroyed their credibility by flip-flopping and lying constantly.
I have a friend that works as a nurse in a nursing home. The staff is tested constantly and all staff have been required to have the Pfizer BioNTech mRNA vaccine. The problem? The 100% vaccinated staff members keep testing positive for the virus - a problem that began recently with the delta spread across the US - despite full vaccination and it's making it next to impossible to operate the nursing home safely. This is the kind of thing they're still keeping out of the news and refusing to talk about (break-through cases are rare, they say; that's entirely a lie).
Authorities are terrified that if they admit the truth at this juncture (that even the mRNA vaccines don't work well against preventing delta infections, and that they only work well at preventing severe outcomes), a lot of the remaining unvaccinated won't bother to get vaccinated. And plausibly they're right about that, it would plunk new vaccination rates lower. They also don't want to admit that common masks don't work against delta, they're close to being worthless. Mask theater is a bad joke and the population has largely figured it out, the authorities here have destroyed their credibility by flip-flopping and lying constantly.
UK is not in a strict lockdown and has not been for some time. They are currently opening everything.
a number of q's:
1. isn't AZN available?
2. how many lockdowns have there been in Australia overall?
3. is there any criticism regarding closing the borders for so long considering you're now in a lockdown?
1. isn't AZN available?
2. how many lockdowns have there been in Australia overall?
3. is there any criticism regarding closing the borders for so long considering you're now in a lockdown?
1. For those over 50 due to blood clotting side effects.
The government recently palmed off the decision for those under that age to GPs to approve to try to mask their incompetence..
A diversion tactic at best. Useful for those with comorbidities to get AZ I suppose. Those more likely to die of covid than any clot.
2. Depends on the state. I'm in Melbourne, so five.
3. Not widespread, no. I am sure some people feel very strongly about it though.
The government recently palmed off the decision for those under that age to GPs to approve to try to mask their incompetence..
A diversion tactic at best. Useful for those with comorbidities to get AZ I suppose. Those more likely to die of covid than any clot.
2. Depends on the state. I'm in Melbourne, so five.
3. Not widespread, no. I am sure some people feel very strongly about it though.
1. Yes but there have been the issues with blood clotting
2. I've lost count of the total number of lockdowns across all states but there have been two lengthy ones so far, one in Victoria and one in New South Wales.
3. Plenty. Problem is we've been quarantining international return travellers in hotels close to the cities and it's virtually impossible to not have that leak into the community.
Not the OP but I believe that AZ is available but only for the over 60s.
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-...
The AstraZeneca vaccine has been provisionally approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) for people 18 years and older.
The AstraZeneca vaccine has been provisionally approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) for people 18 years and older.
Available, but the recommendations from ATAGI have been contextually shifting and could be summed up as 'if there isn't an outbreak then the risk profile means under 60s should probably wait for pfizer'
https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-statement-on-revised-re...
https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi-statement-on-revised-re...
I stand corrected, it seems that the over 60s are advised to have AZ, and under 60s Pfizer, but that's just a recommendation:
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-...
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-...
For people under 60 you need to give informed consent due to the (rare) blood clotting issue. From the same link:
> If you are aged 18-59 years of age, you can choose to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine:
> - following an appropriate assessment of suitability by a qualified health professional; and
> - if you provide verbal or written consent.
This extra hurdle and some mixed messaging about the risks has made many people hesitant
> If you are aged 18-59 years of age, you can choose to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine:
> - following an appropriate assessment of suitability by a qualified health professional; and
> - if you provide verbal or written consent.
This extra hurdle and some mixed messaging about the risks has made many people hesitant
Technically available, if you can jump hurdles..
I bet in the US I can go and get any vaccine I choose. There's a lot of advantages to living in Australia, this isn't one of them.
I bet in the US I can go and get any vaccine I choose. There's a lot of advantages to living in Australia, this isn't one of them.
I've had friends in their 20s have their GP deny them getting it.
> to solve our problems
What exactly are your problems?
(Asking for a friend.)
What exactly are your problems?
(Asking for a friend.)
Our glorious leader has no foresight, or ability to plan for future problems.
How do I know this? Because he infamously brought a lump of coal to parliament to show people how it's not dirty at all and nobody needs to be scared of it. (He had it lacquered to stop his hands getting dirty.)
The selfsame genius of a man was quoted earlier in the year saying that "vaccination was not a race".
He also cancelled out original Pfizer order, so then we got put at the back of the queue after dozens of other countries.
How do I know this? Because he infamously brought a lump of coal to parliament to show people how it's not dirty at all and nobody needs to be scared of it. (He had it lacquered to stop his hands getting dirty.)
The selfsame genius of a man was quoted earlier in the year saying that "vaccination was not a race".
He also cancelled out original Pfizer order, so then we got put at the back of the queue after dozens of other countries.
It's kind of shocking isn't it. Covid has made Australians super aware of the delineation between State and Federal Government.
My suspicion is that as a general rule, the Federal Government seems truly terrible at Project Execution.
My hypothesis is that State Governments have to actually build things and operate schools/hospitals/police/transport etc. While the Federal Government is more of a financial institution... and consequently doesn't have the actual experience of getting things done. And so when it comes time to rise to the occasion, they simply don't have the skill set to get it done.
My suspicion is that as a general rule, the Federal Government seems truly terrible at Project Execution.
My hypothesis is that State Governments have to actually build things and operate schools/hospitals/police/transport etc. While the Federal Government is more of a financial institution... and consequently doesn't have the actual experience of getting things done. And so when it comes time to rise to the occasion, they simply don't have the skill set to get it done.
The Australian regime has lost all credibility in democratically dealing with Covid-19.
Using the military to crush dissent and enforce police state dictates should be treated as a human rights violation.
As a New Yorker fearing the same authoritarianism come this fall, I stand with Australians protesting against tyranny.
Using the military to crush dissent and enforce police state dictates should be treated as a human rights violation.
As a New Yorker fearing the same authoritarianism come this fall, I stand with Australians protesting against tyranny.
Define tyranny in the sense that you meant this?
Using state violence to force citizens to wear a mask and stay within a defined distance of their homes is tyranny.
Very few people would disagree with this, unless they themselves are tyrants.
Very few people would disagree with this, unless they themselves are tyrants.
Fine - so you're taking the "oppressive" act definition as opposed to the singular ruler.
Let's continue to unpack that - "opressive" implies "unreasonable" acts
Continue "unreasonable" suggests that the actions conform to no reason
So your point about tyranny effectively becomes that you don't think masks or ensuring that people interact less reduces the spread of COVID. However there's real evidence of both of those things helping reduce the spread.
Effectively your argument is that you don't want to do a thing, so someone making you do that thing is a tyrant?
I'm not sure we get anywhere else on this.
Let's continue to unpack that - "opressive" implies "unreasonable" acts
Continue "unreasonable" suggests that the actions conform to no reason
So your point about tyranny effectively becomes that you don't think masks or ensuring that people interact less reduces the spread of COVID. However there's real evidence of both of those things helping reduce the spread.
Effectively your argument is that you don't want to do a thing, so someone making you do that thing is a tyrant?
I'm not sure we get anywhere else on this.
lol you guys with focus group dialectic games. My dude. Forcing someone to stay in their house under threat of gunshot is tyranny. Same with covering their face.
Is that argument clear enough?
Is that argument clear enough?
Not really, you're saying that any law enforcement that has a gun, threatens its use. Given the amount of speeding fines handed out daily that's provably wrong. The guns and laws around the use of those guns are there to ensure that you don't disagree using violence. That's not a threat, but a conditional measured response. There are many things tyrannical in this world we have right now, but this example in Australia is not even close. :D
Again I'll note, "staying in the house" is a reasonable thing to ensure the populace do when the effect of not doing so is potentially harmful to the entire population. I say this as an Aussie living elsewhere. I yearn for the freedoms that you've had in Australia for 2020. We've got some of them over here due to vaccinations, but who knows how long that will last.
Again I'll note, "staying in the house" is a reasonable thing to ensure the populace do when the effect of not doing so is potentially harmful to the entire population. I say this as an Aussie living elsewhere. I yearn for the freedoms that you've had in Australia for 2020. We've got some of them over here due to vaccinations, but who knows how long that will last.
The Australian vaccine rollout has been fundamentally corrupted. Senior ex-members of the ruling party now work for Astra Zeneca:
https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/08/20/from-lib-staffer-to-big...
And this vaccine was prioritised, instead of just buying a whole lot from manufacturers around the world as other countries have done.
Recently, anti-lockdown protests attended by 10s of thousands of people in Sydney have erupted.
'Australian Government orders its military to suppress its own citizenry' would be a more accurate title.
https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/08/20/from-lib-staffer-to-big...
And this vaccine was prioritised, instead of just buying a whole lot from manufacturers around the world as other countries have done.
Recently, anti-lockdown protests attended by 10s of thousands of people in Sydney have erupted.
'Australian Government orders its military to suppress its own citizenry' would be a more accurate title.
Worth clicking this link if only for the fabulous photo. At the start of the first lockdown in London the Underground was almost deserted and mice came out to play on the platforms, this takes it to another level.
Classic bin chicken [0].
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4dYWhkSbTU
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4dYWhkSbTU
I seem to remember these birds standing on tables next to me at outdoor cafes the same as a cheeky pigeon would in other countries.
Consequently we are still using the blunt instruments of lockdown to solve our problems.
If anyone out there can send some Pfizer or equivalent our way...